Will Buxton Unleashed! | Singapore GP 2025 Preview

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noventa y nueve centavos. Hello everybody, welcome back to the fast and the curious. You should know

the drill by now, but if you don't, this is the formula on podcast with myself, Betty Glover,

Christian Hughgill and Greg James, and we preview and debrief the Grand Prix and chat to some

of their biggest names in the sport. Our latest big name interview was with Isaac Hadjar, by the way,

and some dodgy internet as well. He became yet another Formula One driver to casually snack

whilst being on the podcast. He loves a yogurt. Does Isaac Hadjar? Iconic behavior. You can scroll

back if you missed that one and have a listen. Also, if you haven't already hit subscribe,

whether you're watching or listening, it's always really, really helpful. So to preview

the Singapore Grand Prix, it is me and Christian and a man who knows a thing or two

about the F1 Paddock. Yeah, Betty, hello. It's lovely to be with you. This is a man who has

spent years in said Paddock. He's explained the sport to a new generation on Drive to Survive.

Nowadays can be found stateside. We are delighted to say he's a friend of the podcast.

We're delighted he's on for his first scheduled appearance. His only other

appearances have come when it's hitting the fan. So welcome in beautiful normal timing,

Will Buxton is here. Hello, Will. Thank you so much for inviting me on when

there isn't breaking news that we're all panicking over. It's lovely to be a bit more relaxed.

To be fair, you are a great go-to when it's hitting the fan and everything's happening

and going on and we're like, oh my God, we need Will Buxton on. We explain this to everybody.

Break the glass for Buxton, emergency. Thank you. Thank you. No, it's lovely to be back, guys. Thank

you. So coming up on the podcast today, could Charlie Clair be leaving Ferrari or could

Christian Horner be coming back to the sport? I didn't think that would be happening. Anna

will, of course, going to preview this weekend Singapore Grand Prix. But Christian,

Hugh Gill, not Horner, there's only one place that we can start. And that is with the really sad news

about Roscoe. He was Lewis Hamilton's bulldog. He died at the age of 12 this week, one of,

if not the most famous dog in the world. I don't think there is a more famous dog than Roscoe.

That's, I mean, that's a podcast in itself, the most famous, like Santa's Little Helper

from the Simpsons you're talking here, Lassie. Lassie's a big, big one, yeah. No, we wanted to

talk about this because like, it's, it's, we are all big dog fans, aren't we? It's hot, so sad

when you lose a pet. So bless Lewis. We are sending our love and our prayers and our best

wishes to Lewis. So you were, Willie, you were a dog person. I grew up with the most

wonderful dog who was a rescue dog called Ruddles. Actually, she was originally called

Cuddles, but my father decided he could not walk around the Malvern Hills shouting Cuddles.

So this was renamed Ruddles. And she was a gorgeous dopey thing. And yeah, big, big, big dog guy.

My sister has a pug, which is a bit more snuffly. But yeah, really, really sad news

about Roscoe because he was, he had a longer tenure in Formula One than most drivers.

The most team print, like he was around what, like a decade and a half that he was in the paddock.

It's genuinely like really, I really feel for Lewis because he's gone through so many changes

in his life with the people who've surrounded him in his Formula One career. You know, he's

changed management. He's changed the people around him. Okay, changed team recently, but

there have been so many ups and downs of the people that Lewis has surrounded himself with. And I've

felt for the longest time that he lived quite a singular and quite a lonely existence sometimes

at races. And so Roscoe was that one constant for him for a decade and a half of, you know,

as pets can be, that one kind of dependable part of your life that never leaves you.

So it's going to be a huge loss for him. And I really, really, I really feel for him.

It's so sad because I'll also just say, so there was one time, like you sort of really,

Roscoe was a brilliant example of how ridiculous the sport is because you would, I remember big

sat, Mercedes is one of those teams that when you're inside Mercedes at a race weekend,

it feels a bit more formal than some of the others. It has to be said. But yeah,

it would bring it back down to earth when you're just sat there and sort of out the corner of your

eye. This bulldog would just stroll through this like super high security motor home that's the base

of like this elite sports team. And a bulldog was just strolling through on his own. And there's

Roscoe. Most people get turned away at the door and Roscoe just sort of trots in on his own.

But I remember when he first started turning up to races and there was this big kind of

bruja about it. Like, you know, is it too loud? Is it too noisy for the dogs to be there? Should

there be, should there be pets in the paddock and all these kinds of questions? And, and Louis

just, Louis just normalized it. Louis just changed the game like he always does. He said,

This is what I'm doing. And, and, you know, deal with it basically.

And that dog was so chill. Chillest dog ever. I hosted the main stage at Silverstone,

not this year, just gone the year before. Obviously, Louis won. So I'm stood backstage.

And we've all like a state of high alert because Louis is about to be bought out onto the stage,

just, you know, speak to the fans his first win in forever. And it's, it's amazing.

And again, just being led on the lead, you've got like tens of thousands of people screaming

outside on the stage waiting for Louis. Louis's team comes in and just Roscoe being led

like it's a dog walking through the park. Roscoe is just trotting through backstage,

completely normalized to this whole thing. Louis brings him out onto the stage. And honestly,

Roscoe stole the show with, with like, Louis is when his first grand prix. But the whole

crowd are just looking at Roscoe just stood there on the main stage like, Hi. Hi. This is fun.

I met, I met Roscoe in 2023 at Silverstone. And what you're saying about Mercedes when

you sort of walk into the motor home? I was there. Pep Guardiola was in the corner. Louis Hamilton,

Louis Hamilton's upstairs somewhere. But the only thing anybody was interested in was Roscoe.

No one cared about Pep Guardiola being sat there with Toto Wolf having a espresso. Everyone was

just crowding around Roscoe. Who was just loving life? Like that dog must have had the best life.

Can you imagine some of the experiences that he's experienced?

Oiled. Unbelievable. Also loved that Louis told the story of him being in the cinema

over the winter with him. And Louis said he wasn't watching the film, he was just

watching the dog watch the telly. We've all done that with dogs. We've all done it.

Anyway, that was a lovely tribute to Roscoe. I've enjoyed sharing Roscoe memories.

Yeah, he was cute, wasn't he? Ah, bless him. Sending our love to Louis.

If anyone else has any F1 related pets stories, by the way, let us know because we love this.

I've named my dog after a footballer. Christian loves dogs. Will, I'm sure if you had a dog it

would be called, I don't know, Clarence. I don't know. That would be up to my daughters.

Yeah. It would probably be called Taylor on current.

After Taylor Swift. Obviously, obviously everyone's very excited for Friday.

There's other big tailors out there in the world, I don't know. Could have been a fan of

Taylor, somebody else. Taylor Lautner. Not seen as much there. Big in 2012.

Yeah, not as on as much now. Anyway, maybe your pet has met a Formula One driver. Maybe you've

named your pet after a particular person in Formula One. Any pets related Formula One anecdotes, please.

At Fast Curious, part on socials. And we'll do some of those in the Singapore Deep.

Just while we're talking about F1 news, Max won his first GT3 race last weekend. But, of course,

he didn't just win. He just absolutely smashed it like Max Verstappen does. If you missed this,

it was the NLS9, the ninth round of the Nürburgring. That is a name that every time I read that,

I'm like, oh, oh, how do I say it? It's an endurance series, isn't it? A four-hour race

around one of the most famous circuits in the world. Will, can you explain to everyone

just how impressive this is that Max can just get into a car that is totally different to the

series he races in and just dominates? Yeah, and it's not an easy track. It's the Norge Life.

So it's about 10 times as long as most Grand Prix tracks. Very treacherous, very difficult to

memorize it. Jackie Stewart famously said that he struggled to remember all the corners,

because it was such a long track. Well, I really like about this. And first, we've got to give props

not just to Max, but to Chris Lullam, his teammate, who started as a sim racer, stepped up to racing

alongside Max. And Max rates him really, really highly. And he did obviously a lot of the driving

as well alongside Max. And Jan Maddenborough, that the Gran Turismo movie was made about,

who obviously started off as a sim racer and then became a racing driver himself.

Jan was second in that race on his return to the Norge Life after a massive accident,

which if you've seen the movie, you know all about. He was P2. So really cool podium and great for

Chris, you know, and for Max. But what I really like about Max going and driving in an LS is he

had to go and prove that he was worthy. He had to go and actually qualify for a license.

This is a four. Yeah. Oh, I missed it. Yeah. So like, they wouldn't just say, oh, yeah,

you're Max Verstappen. Of course, you know how to drive a car. It was like, no, you've got to go

through, you know, the proper procedures to get your license to come and race in this,

in this series. And he wasn't too big for that. He accepted it and said, yeah, of course,

I'll jump through whatever hoops you want me to jump through. Well, I'll go through the

process. And I love that humility about him as well. And that he did that to allow

himself to go in and race and put on, you know, such a good show. And, you know, I think

Frank Stippler, who who is a huge name on the Nordschleife, he's done the 24 hours of the

Nürburgring, I think something like 25 times. So nobody knows that that circuit. Nobody knows

the challenge of that, you know, probably better than him. And he was full of praise for Max

for the job that he did for the lap times he was running because Max was only a couple

of seconds off setting a new lap record around the place. Like, you know, it just it just speaks

to the quality of Max that on his off weeks, he's gone and qualified for license, turned up, and

didn't just win, like absolutely smashed it. Job well done. Job hugely well done.

You think he's got other things to do? Do you know what I mean? Like surely there's other

things that he he lives to raise or could be lived to raise. That's it.

Well, while we're on Max, Red Bull have obviously made this car more drivable right in recent weeks.

We've seen Max do what he's done recently. That gap to the championship leader Oscar

Piazzari is 69 points. 69, dude. Seven races left plus sprints. Forget how many sprints

there are. I always forget when it's a sprint weekend until about eight seconds starts. I just

know capacity to remember it's a sprint weekend. Anyway, well, what are they qualifying on a Friday?

What's going on? What's happening? Oh, it's a sprint race. Fine. Sorry. Sorry. I've also

forgotten it's a sprint race whilst there on many occasions. Anyway, Will, can Max for

staff and win this year's Formula One World Championship? Do you think we had this

discussion last year about Landon and I said not only can he win it, but he will win it.

And I've got to be honest, I said that mainly because I was working for F1 at the time and

I wanted to keep interest in the second half of the season. I'm not going to lie. I didn't really

think he had much of a shot, but I thought let's pump this as much as we can. We now get boxed

and unleashed. This is phenomenal. It's great. But look, if it was anyone else, you'd probably

say it's tough. You know, Landon had two thirds of a season to overcome that kind of a

deficit and couldn't do it. But this isn't Landon. This is Max and Max can do the impossible.

And all it's going to take is, you know, another Piastri implosion or for McLaren to

start getting freaked out about team orders or whatever it might be and start handing these

points over to Max. Let's not forget since the restart of the season, since the summer

break, he's had a second place in two firsts. If he can perform at Singapore, which has always

been a bogey track for him. It's the only one on the on the calendar that he's not won at.

Then, yeah, I think I think there's a very serious chance and Andrea Steller thinks there's

a very serious chance. And you cannot discount Max. You can never discount him. And is 69 points

a huge total? Yes. And people will look to history and say that kind of a deficit has

never been overcome. But I think I'm right in saying that that kind of a total has actually

been eaked out by somebody who's been leading and then, you know, sort of stretched that gap over

the rest of the field in the in the latter half of the season. So it's doable. And honestly,

I think I said it after after Baku with the form that he's in right now, I would not be

shocked at all if Max takes a fifth consecutive title. That would be very Max Verstappen,

wouldn't it? Just make a little bit of history, just come back and just smash it. Do you think

it's a mental game now for McLaren? Yeah, but it has been all the way through the year. They've

had the best car, they've got two phenomenal drivers, but they're making mistakes by themselves

and they're making it too complicated. They're taking something that should be really, really

easy. And they're overthinking it to the point that they risk throwing it away. But

let's not forget, you know, it's not like Red Bull have suddenly come on the song,

they had a good car at the start of the year, they won races at the start of the year,

then they sort of tailed off a little bit and now they're just, you know, they're kind of,

they're bringing it back. So they are a threat. Max is a threat. He's always a threat. You know,

you could stick him in a tractor, you could stick him in an F2 car and he'd still probably

turn up and qualify the thing mid grid. Like, you know, obviously that's an exaggeration,

but you just feel with Max, wherever he goes, whatever he drives, whatever level of the field

he's up against, there is always the potential for magic. And honestly, I can't wait for these last

few races because once you get to Singapore, the season just disappears. Like it goes so fast.

But I can see him, I can see him racking up a bunch of wins and putting some serious heat on

the clarion in these final races. Magic Max. I'd like to see him racing a tractor actually. I think

that would be very exciting. And Christian, this feels like a really important weekend for Max and

Red Bull, doesn't it? Yeah, and Will's just touched on it. It's historically not a track where

they've been great. If you remember the Invincible year, it was the only one where a Red

Bull car didn't win, where Carlos won. So it's historically not just certain cars suit certain

tracks, characteristics and Red Bull of, don't forget, since 2020, since the rule changes

for the start of the 2022 season, we've really seen evolution with these cars rather than

revolution that we've not really seen, right, we're going to rip up and start again. We have

seen dramatic changes in design for Adrian Newey, but still, until a rule set is reset completely,

you can't necessarily say, oh, that's irrelevant now. So if you look back in recent seasons,

it's not been a strong Red Bull track. So if this bear in mind, it's not been a strong Red Bull

year, but as we just said earlier, they are making steps to make the car more drivable.

If we see a Max for Stapham win this weekend, then we see a Red Bull front row. Even if we

see a Max for Stapham top two, I think everything Will's just said gets supercharged. It's like,

oh, I think we really are in Red Bull title challenge territory here, if they can do it

this weekend, of all weekends, because it's just not been a happy hunting ground. There are so

many various factors. We've seen the Mercedes car not work better on circuits where it's cool,

for example. So it's done well in Vegas, you know, you could list all the different

characteristics all day as to why this particular car performs well here and this

particular car performs well here. So if Red Bull have made this car drivable in Singapore,

and Max, we know if it's capable, Max will do it, then you're thinking, wow,

they could really make McLaren sweat a lot here. I wonder what Max's mentality is, because

it wasn't that long ago that he was saying, well, yeah, we're not in the title race,

like that's done for us now. Do you think he'll think, hmm, I could do it here?

I think Max sort of looks at each weekend, just as an individual weekend, certainly when

there's... I was just about to say exactly the same, well, and he'll just go into it, be like,

right, let's get the best out of this that we possibly can. And there is no jeopardy for him,

you know, whatever he does this year, whether if he finished a second in the championship,

that's already a massive result. If he feels he can win the title, I don't think he's going

to freak himself out about it. That's not Max's style. That's not who he is. He's just

going to go into every weekend and try and win the damn race. And if he can do that every single

weekend to the end of the season, or just finish top two, top three, whatever, and see where the

chips fall with the McLaren drivers and start chipping away at that lead, we've already had a

massive swing over the course of the last two weekends. You keep that kind of momentum going,

you keep that kind of swing going. As Christian says, it's going to put a lot of heat. It's

going to get pretty sweaty from the McLaren. When you've won as much as he has in Formula

One, when you've achieved as much as he has, you know, you don't have the mental pressure

that Landau and Oscar under because they've not won a title. So Max is just turning up,

racing pressure-free, enjoying himself, doing the best he can. That's when elite

athletes perform at their best, when they've got just a total sense of freedom,

a total belief in themselves. Max has that in abundance and if he wins this World Championship,

he's delighted. He wants to win more than anything. If he doesn't win this World Championship,

it doesn't matter. He'll get plenty more opportunities to win races than the rest of

his Formula One career. He's already proved everything. He's already said this season,

you can't win them all. I had a nice time. He's just so chilled and that's how

athletes perform at their best. So I think, and that's dangerous if you're McLaren,

that's dangerous to be up against someone like that. The more these guys win the

Hamilton's, your Schumacher's, the more difficult they become to beat because the pressure's off

them to an extent, their legacy secured and they just become more and more self-confident.

But particularly for this year, he's got, he has absolutely nothing to lose.

As you said, he's already written this year off. So finish his third in the

driver's championship, already brilliant. Finish the second above expectations,

fights for the title and potentially wins it, one of the all-time great seasons.

You know, like it's, it's, he wins no matter what happens.

Will, speaking of self-confidence, let's talk about Christian Horner.

Since the last time he was on, since the last time we were on the podcast,

he's officially left Red Bull. That confused a lot of people. He was removed as his position

of team principal. He was still technically employed by the company. Since then,

there's been lots of conversations with lots of lawyers about size of payouts and that

sort of thing. And now there's been the conscious uncoupling and they are officially

divorced. Lots of links speculating as to where he will turn up in Formula One in the future.

Haas being linked, Alpine being linked. We know we've heard enough from good sources that he wants

his next F1 adventure to be where he can be a total wolf style part owner of a team,

have financial sway in it. Will, these rumors are swirling around all over the place.

Where, if anywhere, in the not too distant future do you see him popping back up?

If I'd been paid what he'd been paid to disappear, you'd never see me again.

That I was about to say, get me on an island. Get me out of it. Goodbye everybody.

I'd go and live on a tropical island and nobody would ever see me ever, ever again.

Same, me and loads of dogs.

If he wants to throw himself back into the fire, and I'm sure he does because he's competitive.

Alpine for me has always made the most sense because of his close links with Flavio.

Haas is more likely that he'd get some equity there, but that's a massive job for him.

We're seeing more and more this move towards engineers running teams as team principals,

as CEOs, whatever. They're doing great under IO. Is Christian going to have the financial

freedoms and the investment that he would need to turn that thing around and take it to where

he needs to? It's a very difficult one to answer. I think it's

it's going to be a difficult one for Christian to make his mind up on because he's come from a world

where he clicked his fingers and he asked Dietrich Mateschitz for the money and Dietrich said yes or

no and it was done. Wherever else you go, that will not happen because he's not going to be at

a Ferrari or a Mercedes or anywhere that's going to have that kind of a budget to play with.

Does he want to go from managing Manchester City to managing Scumthorpe where he's not

going to have the budget, he's not going to have the opportunities to play the game that he used to

play. So I don't know. I don't know where that sort of competitive instinct would actually take him

or if he'd fancy something in a different formula or a different sport or whatever it might be. I

think we just automatically assume or you know, Christian's definitely going to come back, but

I don't know where it makes sense. Yeah, if you look at all the teams, it's like

no, probably wouldn't, probably wouldn't. Like where's Gap? Well, it's also okay. Alpine in

you only have to go into Alpine for coffee and somebody says don't believe the rumors we don't

want to sell. They couldn't be any more sort of briefing. It's not true guys. We don't want

to sell. Renault is committed to the project. All right, we don't think we can, we need to make our

own engines, but with Mercedes engines, we're confident for the future. We've got Pierre leading us.

They're really, I mean, title to whether this is all true, but that's what they're briefing.

Haas, I was going to make the same point, Wilders, you've got, you've made real progress with

Aayu Komatsu. So is Gene Haas the owner go, I'll give up some equity and therefore some

profit, having spent years making this thing profitable at this point when they are

doing well to put Christian in, who is unproven in getting results and building a team forward

when he's under tight budgets. I think it's a massive gamble for a team like Haas. Plus,

let's be honest, it does bring unwanted negative PR. Well, I mean, it brings, since losing Gunther,

they've lost a lot of the PR that they did have around this very strong character of a team

principle. So if you brought Christian in as a CEO, rather than as a team principle, that in and

of itself puts a massive spotlight on the team. So, you know, what you're weighing it up then,

aren't you, the commercial positives and negatives of having that spotlight versus the,

you know, inherent negative headlines, which will follow Christian around now,

no matter what he does and where he goes. So, you know, if that is a price that

Gene Haas is willing to pay in order to get that spotlight on his team, then perhaps he takes it.

But it's a difficult one. It's a really, really difficult. And as you guys are saying,

it's not easy to figure out where he slots in. And if anybody would be willing to,

you know, to take that gamble. I think he just needs to just be a housewife for Jerry

Halliwell. Oh, I'd love to be a house husband. It'd be, it'd be the great thing. Oh, me too.

And we're lovely. Yeah. With, with a very hefty, you know, eight figures to, you know, dry your

tears with. I think it'd be, I think it'd be all right. So, all right, isn't it? You can go to

sleep with all those millions sat in your bag. That's nice. That's nice. I just wouldn't

bother working again. Anyway, that is Christian Horner's future. But when we're back after

the break, we're going to talk about Charlotte Claire's future.

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Welcome back, everybody. In that break, Will was just telling us about his snacks in

America. Chocolate coated gummy bears.

Chocolate covered gummy bears are a game changer. I have I have grown something of an addiction

to Twinkies and Twizzlers, which is I was going to put like a fisheye lens on the camera so you

could fit all of me in the screen. There's a lot more of me than there was six months ago.

I've had to join a gym to try and I've got six months off basically to try and get the

weight off to go back on air again next year.

What's a Twinkie? Because in certain areas that I sometimes socialise in, that means something

very different, doesn't it? Yes, a Twinkie is a cream filled cake.

It's a cake, sure.

It's a cake.

In other ways, don't. It's a cake.

It's a cake.

Yeah, let's talk about Charlotte Claire.

Aston Martin.

Speaking of snacks.

Yes, speaking of snacks.

I'd have him covered in chocolate.

Anyway, Aston Martin, Sadie and McLaren, all teams.

It's not even subtle.

I'd have him covered in chocolate.

What's wrong with you?

It's a joke.

We're talking about chocolate.

Anyway, right. Aston Martin, Mercedes, McLaren, all teams.

Which Charlotte Claire's people have been talking to in recent weeks.

If you believe all of those rumours.

Christian, do you believe the rumours?

I do believe the rumours.

This has been the thing that since we were last on, most people have DM'd me

about being like, oh my God, it can't be true.

Is it Charlotte's leaving Ferrari?

Well, no, listen.

Charlotte won't have made any decisions yet about his future.

I'd be surprised if he hasn't.

I mean, he might be thinking I'm definitely going.

But when you're a driver like Charlotte Claire,

you are always looking at possible other options.

So at this point, where we're two thirds of the way through a season

with a rule change coming up,

I think you're being slightly naive

if you're the management of Charlotte Claire

and you don't at least spend some time considering other options.

And realistically, those three teams you just mentioned, Betty,

Aston, Mercedes and McLaren,

they are the ones that you think, okay,

they would probably be fighting for titles at some point in the near future.

Aston's investment with Adrian Newey

and the big new factory, Mercedes and McLaren speak for themselves.

They are potential destinations.

So it's not necessary, even if the rumours are true,

it's not unusual for a driver's representatives to have casual chats.

It happens all the time.

The bigger question I think here is,

I have been an advocate for Ferrari

if they are going to return to winning ways,

sticking with a plan for a bit.

It's quite Manchester United in football in its thing.

You've chopped and changed so much,

at some point you need to stick to a plan

with all the people in place and not keep chopping and changing.

So does Charles believe in that plan?

Are Ferrari showing enough that they can fight for titles?

How is their engine going to be next year

in a formula that will become more engine dependent?

I'm not loving the rumours coming out

about Ferrari's chances next year.

The fact they've had such a big,

almost stepped backwards a bit this year

doesn't fill me full of hope for the future.

But that said, I do think they need to stick with Fred

and stick with a plan for a long period of time.

Will, what do you think to all this?

Do you ever, do you see Charles winning in reds

and winning not just races, but a title?

I don't think I can picture Charles wearing anything but red.

He is as much Ferrari as Ferrari is him.

But when was the last time Ferrari won a driver's title?

When was the last time they won a constructor's title?

2008.

So they're going on two decades without a win in either championship.

And I'm with you, you've got to let Fred do his thing

and you've got to give it time.

But how much time does Charles have

and how much time will he want to give to a project?

If next year, with this massive change of regulation,

doesn't see Ferrari start on the front foot.

And this is the thing, we're stepping into the great unknown for everybody.

And I think there was so much talk about Max

and would Max stay or would Max go?

And for everybody, the big determination will be

how does the team fare in the first season of the new regulations?

And then everybody will be able to make up their mind

as to where they want to go.

Charles will be massively on people's radars,

because I think that Charles is one of those few

that you could consider up on a mega level.

Max is up there all on his own.

But you have your Charles and your Piastris

at that next level down.

And there aren't many drivers in the field,

I think, that really hold a candle to Charles

and to what he could achieve in the right car,

in the right circumstances at that right time.

I think Max said that if he could have any other drivers

qualifying, pedigree and prowess, it would be Charles.

If he was creating the ultimate F1 driver,

he'd want Charles qualifying pace in there.

He's on one lap incredible.

He's a very unifying driver within a team.

Could I see him at a Mercedes?

Absolutely.

Could I see him replacing Fernando at Aston Martin?

Absolutely.

Could I see him at a McLaren if they lost a Lando or an Oscar?

I don't think Oscar's going to go anywhere,

because I think Zach's going to have him bolted down

to an ironclad contract for the foreseeable.

But not Lando?

Not so much anymore.

I think Lando was the favourite for a long time.

I think Oscar might be now.

They're trying to do this whole two number one drivers.

It never works.

Someone always ends up getting f***ed off,

so the two number one things just doesn't work.

Let's come back to that.

I actually really want to come back to that.

That's a really interesting point.

Just the final thing on Charles before we move on.

But he's 27, right?

Oh, he's ancient.

He's ancient.

I agree with everything you've said, Will.

I think he wants to win in Ferrari.

He's committed to the project.

But I don't think he's so committed to the project

that he will finish his F1 career and think,

oh, God, I could have won a title,

but I stuck with Ferrari.

You just don't want to.

By the way, if you've never read Will's book,

it's brilliant.

Will's book is absolutely fantastic.

And Will, as you were talking then,

I was reminded of a bit in your book

where you're talking about Daniel Ricciardo,

because you do a nice little bit of each decade

where you talk about sort of the one that got away almost.

I just think go back to the 2014 season.

Daniel Ricciardo, this was a season dominated by Mercedes.

Daniel Ricciardo finishes third in the world championship

behind the two Mercedes drivers.

His teammate is Sebastian Vettel, right?

World champion.

Ricciardo finishes on 238 points.

Vettel on 167.

238 points, rather, with Vettel on 167.

At that point, you're thinking,

this guy's going to win a world championship.

This guy is just going to win a world championship.

And then all of a sudden,

I always sort of went through Ricciardo's career thinking,

oh, at some point he'll find himself

in the right place to win a world championship.

And he just didn't.

And then all of a sudden there was a rule change

where his skill set wasn't suited to the new rules

so much. You don't want to be that guy, do you?

Where all of a sudden you're 31, you're 32,

your chance just hasn't come.

And I actually think Charles ceiling is higher than Daniel's,

but you take my point.

All right, he's still young, but my god time flies in this sport.

Yeah, it does.

And you want to make your career doesn't last forever.

You want to make the right decisions.

You know, and Daniel's career, unfortunately,

is an abject lesson in making the wrong moves.

That being a driver, like John and Lacey,

is, it could be quite comparable to potentially to Charles.

He was beloved by Ferrari.

And he went where his heart told him to go,

rather than taking the decisions and ending up at the teams

that potentially would have handed John the chance

to fight for world championships,

because John could have ended up at Williams

in the early 1990s.

And quite possibly, you know,

would have been a world champion in 92 or 93

if he'd ended up at Williams back then.

But he chose Ferrari.

He followed his heart.

And as a result, he only ever won one Grand Prix.

He's a Ferrari legend.

He's a Formula One legend,

because he was one of the most liked characters in the sport.

But did he ever achieve what his immense talent

promised that he could have done?

No, he didn't.

And that's the great quandary with Charles,

do you stick this out and stay loyal to a fault

in the hope that at some point

it turns around during your tenure?

Or do you watch the opportunities fly by

while you stick to your, stick to your guns?

Because, you know,

sod's law, you leave Ferrari just as they get good.

But how long is he going to give it?

Because Alonso, for example.

Well, exactly.

You can, I mean, the list is endless

of people who've moved out at entirely the wrong time.

But Charles just feels like, you know,

he's a Ferrari driver.

He's always been a Ferrari driver

since his junior days when he was back by Ferrari.

You know, all the way through to today,

can you see him with anybody else?

No, we said that about Lewis.

You could never see him with anybody else

other than Mercedes.

And okay, this year's not going great.

But that's another question as well.

Lewis isn't going to be a Ferrari forever.

And if it continues as it's gone this year,

if it's still a nightmare next year,

how long does he stay there?

And if Charles leaves too,

what does that say, A, about Ferrari and their future?

If they're going to have to look for two new drivers.

B, what does that do to Fred's tenure as team principal?

Because you lose Lewis Hamilton and Charles Lecler

with a car that still isn't winning world championships.

Well, that's him done.

So the next 12 months are pivotal, I think,

in the careers of three really well-liked

and really well-respected people in Formula One.

Lewis, Charles and Fred.

And they're all tied together,

because if it doesn't come together next year,

then we could see some massive moves happening.

Oh, it's going to be so interesting.

I feel like Ferrari fans need a good break.

They need a win, I think, generally.

We are going to take another quick break,

but when we're back, we're going to talk McLaren,

we're going to talk Singapore,

and we're also going to talk about Will Buxton.

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Well, we are so happy that you like coming on the podcast,

because we've missed you.

We've missed your views,

and we've missed you being in and around the F1 paddock.

But it looks like you are having a bloody brilliant time

covering IndyCar this season.

What was it like entering a new paddock for the first time?

Oh, really daunting.

Like really scary.

Yeah, really, really scary.

But it couldn't have been better.

People couldn't have been nicer, friendlier, more welcoming.

It's, IndyCar is an amazing championship.

It's a very warm and welcoming series.

The teams, the drivers, everybody have just been absolutely lovely.

The family that I've built in a very short time at Fox

have been incredible on Fox Sports.

That's been, it's been a huge fun.

But yeah, IndyCar is just, I see in IndyCar

what I saw sort of 10 years ago in Formula One.

When it was coming to the end of the Bloody Eccleston era

and Liberty was starting to take over,

which is this amazing sport

that had the potential to explode into this global phenomenon

and Liberty did that job with Formula One.

And I see that potential with IndyCar as well

because it is such a thrilling championship.

And if you love your open-wheel racing,

if you love your Formula One,

then you will love IndyCar as well

because it is just brilliantly exciting.

Anybody can win from anywhere on the grid on any weekend.

It's just that this season that person happened to be Alex Palau

pretty much more often than anybody else

because he's just, I mean, he's incredible.

I think he could step over to Formula One

and be competitive in an instant.

I genuinely think he's one of the most gifted drivers

that I've seen in a very long time,

kind of up on a piastry, just sub Max Verstappen level.

He's absolutely brilliant.

And on every cyber circuit, because in IndyCar

you have road and street courses like you do in Formula One,

but you also have short ovals

and you have the super speedways as well,

which take a completely different driving style

and mindset to get your head around.

So he won an all-type of track this year,

one on the roads, one on the streets,

one the Indy 500s, and he won on short ovals.

So Palau is just Palau's the real deal.

And that's why, you know,

Zack Brown fought so hard to get him

and is now still taking him to court

over the fact that Palau reneged on the deal when it,

you know, it's sort of, it's returned for him.

But I love IndyCar. I've always loved IndyCar.

And it's great catching that there's so many F1 people there

that I've known from my years in F1

who've kind of moved over to the States,

whether they're drivers or, you know,

people who work at the teams, it's full of,

it's full of mates.

It's full of people I've known forever.

So it's lovely.

Aw.

It's so lovely following your socials

and watching the coverage as well.

And seeing you just having the best time.

It's just so lovely, Will.

And you mentioned those names there.

Colton Herter is obviously a huge name

to come out of IndyCar.

For those that don't know, he's 26.

He was its youngest ever winner back in 2019.

Will, you're the best person to ask about this.

We have a lot of American people

watching and listening to this podcast.

So he's joining Cadillac as its reserve driver next year.

Will, what can you tell us about him?

Do you expect to see him on the F1 grid

in the coming years?

Because so many people thought when Cadillac would come in,

they'd announce an American driver.

Maybe there's not the obvious candidate at the moment

and they've gone for that experience.

But there's a lot being talked about at the moment

with his potential move over from Indy to F1.

Yeah. And, you know, take a moment

to think about what Colton Herter is sacrificing here.

He was rumored to be on the highest salary in IndyCar.

And he has left that behind to go and race in Formula 2,

to become a reserve driver at Cadillac,

to chase his dream of becoming a Formula 1 driver.

Number one, I'm going to get this out of the way.

I've said it a number of times,

the stipulation of the super license points

is utterly ridiculous.

And it needs a shift.

I understand that the FIA wants to protect their junior formulas

in Formula 2 and Formula 3

and get people going through those

to amass the points to get to Formula 1.

IndyCar is not a feeder series.

It is not a preparatory series.

If you are racing in IndyCar

and you are finishing top four in the championship,

don't tell me that you don't deserve

the same number of points

as a driver finishing top four in Formula 2

because that's ****.

These drivers are phenomenally gifted.

They are adaptable and adaptable to, you know,

different types of circuits

that you're not going to see in Formula 1.

And to racing at speeds, frankly,

that you don't see in Formula 1.

You're hitting top speed of over 240 miles an hour

at the Indy 500.

You're averaging 230 miles an hour

on a lap.

They are incredible.

That said, did Colton hurt to do enough

under the parameters of the super license structure

as it is?

No, he didn't.

So does he deserve a super license

with the structure the way it is?

No, he doesn't.

And had he, you know,

done better than finishing second last year

more frequently,

he would have the points to have a super license

and Cadillac could

and most likely probably would have put him in the car

next season.

But I think that would have been a mistake

because I don't think Cadillac will have a car.

They will not operationally be

at the level that they need to be

to give him, give anybody the opportunity

to be fighting for points,

let alone podiums and race victories.

You know, you can't just walk into Formula 1

and expect it to be a cakewalk.

And I don't think they are expecting that to happen.

That's why they've got Valtteri

and that's why they've got Checo

to very experienced drivers

who know what it is not only to win races

but to race for teams that have put together

dominant world championship runs.

It will be really interesting though,

won't it, to see what happens.

It will also be interesting to see what Cadillac are like.

Let's focus on this season though.

We've got Singapore this weekend

which means pretty light, late nights,

ice baths and the inevitable thirst traps

that all the drivers like to post,

but in particular, George Russell.

I once interviewed Lewis Hamilton

after a session in Singapore

and he wore his bathrobe.

So let's not go there with thirst traps because...

Oh, they're all guilty of it, aren't they?

They're all guilty of it.

It's got worse as well.

To be fair, after racing in Singapore,

like you just need to get your head in that ice, don't you?

ASAP, ASAP.

Well, Lando was really good here last year, wasn't he?

Oscar obviously had a shocker in Azerbaijan.

Do you expect him to bounce Baku?

Oh, nice. Very nice.

Thanks. Lovely, lovely.

I think we might have Baku to Baku

to Baku, Max Verstappen-Wintz.

Oh, do you?

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe. I mean, look, can you imagine

in this amazing season, this topsy-turvy season

that Max ticks the box of the one circuit

that he's not yet won on

to go three wins in a row

and really give momentum

to this potential championship charge?

I think it could be incredible.

Or, you know, we could get a turnaround

and get a win for a Mercedes

or somebody that we're not expecting.

Maybe Ferrari, you know?

They've got recent history at this place.

Admittedly, you know,

car this year is not anywhere where it needs to be.

But Singapore's that kind of track where,

again, like magic can happen every now and then.

You get that little sort of sprinkling

of magic dust on the place

and you get some pretty crazy results.

So, I'm excited to see.

Carlos Sainz.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Well, Carlos is on a run at the moment, isn't he?

Exactly.

But I mean, I think I like the changes

that they made to the circuit.

I like what that's done to the race

and to the lap itself.

So, let's see how it works out.

But McLaren have got a bounce back

and they've got to get back to winning ways

in whichever one of them.

And particularly for Oscar,

because Baku was a really odd weekend.

Like, that's not an Oscar-Piastri weekend.

I don't think I've ever seen him make so many mistakes.

But, you know, McLaren are going to have to keep answering questions

over the papaya rules

and the equity and the parity

that they want to create between their drivers,

because it is getting,

it has got a bit silly.

And after Monza, you know,

there are the big questions.

And I'm surprised there weren't more jokes,

actually, during practice in Baku

when Oscar was forced to sit out

because he had that engine problem.

You know, people saying,

well, you know, how much time's land

are going to have to sit out this session now?

Got to make it fair, guys, you know?

It's not Oscar's fault.

That's a team issue, not a driver issue.

And you said that team issues would be equal, so...

I think, Betty, it's,

I think it's the biggest weekend

of Oscar-Piastri's career.

He needs to make sure

that this is just,

that Baku was just a one-off bad weekend,

a really bad weekend

that he needs to leave in the past.

But don't forget,

go back a race prior to that as well.

With Italy,

Lando was also quicker there.

So there's pressure on Oscar coming into this weekend.

It's the first time I can remember this season

where back-to-back Lando's looked the overall quicker package.

So there's pressure on Oscar this weekend.

I just wonder, go on, Betty.

I was going to say on that,

with Oscar, he's really interesting.

And so many people compliment his mentality.

You know, how he's so calm under pressure.

He's just sort of, he seems a bit unmovable.

And I think what is going to help him is

he just doesn't really seem to get too high

with all of the highs.

And I don't think he gets too low with the lows.

But he needs to prove that

because it's all very well that coming across off-track,

which it does.

This weekend is a proof of that on-track

because if he goes and has another stinker,

well, clearly externally,

he's not showing it.

But internally, he must be.

So that's why I think it's a test.

I just want to pick up on what

Will, I'm interested in your thoughts

on how the title battle will play out

if it is between the two McLaren drivers.

But you picked up on something we've not got into

and there'll be loads of time for this on future episodes.

But we were talking a little bit

about how the long-term driver market will shape out.

And it sort of relates to this season for me

because I can see a situation

where the McLaren driver gets beaten eventually.

As you said, Will, they're doing all of this

just equal, equal, equal.

But one of these two is going to get beaten.

And I remember I mentioned the Daniel Ricciardo season earlier,

where once Vettel had been,

he was the Red Bull, Golden Boy Ricciardo came in, beat him.

Vettel had to leave to go and have a reset, right?

To just think I've been beaten here.

And then it happens Ricciardo, where Max came in.

And Daniel thought, I need to go.

I need to have my own space here.

It feels to me like that's inevitable with the McLaren, Will.

That one of those two will have to go at some point.

And that might be the thing that triggers

another driver market move,

like the Lewis one did.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yeah, I do.

And with the push for parity,

someone's always going to be annoyed

because one driver is always going to come off second best.

There was no such thing as a dead heat in Formula One.

So whichever driver does come off second best,

they're going to be looking at every single nuance of the season,

being like, well, were they given more opportunities than me,

or were they given preferential strategy or treatment or whatever?

Because when you try and have two number ones, invariably,

it creates drivers who are at loggerheads with one another

because they're searching for the minute differences

that lost them a championship.

And very rarely will they look at themselves

and say, well, it was on me.

It'll be down to the team and how the team ultimately played things.

And the team is doing its best to create this parity,

but the harder they try and the more they involve themselves in it

and the more they micromanage it or try to micromanage it,

then the driver who comes out second best

will believe that it was micromanaged

in a way that didn't positively sort of help them.

And that's really, really dangerous

because at least at the end of the day,

you could say, well, it was just bad luck, really sorry.

But if you try to compensate for that bad luck,

then you land yourself in a huge amount of trouble

that you didn't need to because racing is cruel

and racing is unfair.

And you cannot possibly write rules within the team

that will cover every single scenario

in order to make it as fair as you deem it should be

to please both of your drivers.

Because guess what?

Only one of them is going to end up being happy.

Yeah, I think one of them will.

One of them, let's, but again,

let's see what the car does next year.

This might be the only opportunity

that McLaren has to win a driver's title

for the next five, 10 years.

We don't know that.

Yeah.

Oh, God, how limit will you be

if you're the driver that comes second?

Yeah.

Or doesn't win.

Yeah, exactly.

And you know, let's say,

Piastri ends up losing this thing by a couple of points

and is then really annoyed

that he gave back the position at Monza.

You see?

I think we've got a lot of bombatry now

at the end of the year, haven't we?

It's going to be really bloody interesting.

I remember when we talked about this season,

the one thing that just kept coming up,

doesn't matter who you spoke to,

was how are McLaren going to handle these two drivers?

And it's just, oh, you just don't know

if they're handling it right, do you?

It's so, so, so tricky.

There's a certain point where you have to take your hands

off the wheel as the team,

and you have to just let it go.

And you have to just let it play out how it plays out.

Slow pit stops are a factor in what they happen.

You cannot allow it to get to a point where,

you know, I joked about it after Monza.

You know, saying, oh, you have a mechanical DNF.

What are you going to do?

Park the other car?

Because that's the logical conclusion

of where you take this thing.

Because if it's something out of a driver's hands,

they didn't make the mistake.

Something happened to the car,

or there was a fault in the pit stop,

or whatever, the cost and time.

And you're trying to make this fair.

The logical extrapolation of all that,

if you take it to the nth degree is

driver's engine goes bang,

so you park the other car because that's fair.

Otherwise, how is it?

But that's stupid, right?

It's completely stupid, and it would never happen,

and it should never happen.

But if you are playing these games,

where does it start and where does it end?

And should teams be trying to micromanage to that degree?

Because you're just going to **** one of them off.

You're going to **** both of them off.

I was just about to say, we'll find out, won't we?

We're going to find out.

The thing is, though, whatever happens,

one of them is going to end up ****ing off no matter what.

And also, Zach Brown always says,

just let them race.

Well, just let them race then.

Stop getting involved.

Stop getting involved, Zach.

Sit back.

Right, predictions.

What are we thinking?

It's also worth saying that

McLaren could actually be crowned champions,

back-to-back constructors champions.

And they will be, and they deserve it.

They've done a phenomenal job.

And again, I look back to where they were,

what was it now, two, three seasons ago,

and they were bottom of the pack after pre-season testing,

slowest of the bunch.

To have turned around that team in the short period

that they have over the last three seasons

is nothing sort of incredible.

And I don't think we praise the team enough.

For the work that they have done,

for what Zach has done, for what Andrea has done,

for what Gilles de Ferrand did,

you know, bless his soul and memory of Gilles,

what he did behind the scenes.

Well, everybody at that team has done

to turn around the horror show that was McLaren into,

and it will be, back-to-back constructors champions,

whatever happens with the driver's championship.

It's an unbelievable story.

And we really cannot do enough to give credit

to that team for what they have done.

That's a green mill.

Yeah.

And, you know, thoroughly deserved.

And then we go into this tear everything up,

chuck it in the skit, start again next year,

and it's anyone's guess.

But for this weekend, I'm going to go with the max win.

Let's go with the max win, the one track that he hasn't won on.

Let's give that to Max,

and let's get this championship fight going.

Hey, okay, Christian, what are you saying?

Third Hamilton, second Verstappen, first Norris.

Oh, where's Oscar?

First Norris.

Fourth.

No.

Okay, I'm going to say first Oscar,

second Verstappen, and third Norris.

Interesting.

I just have a feeling that Max will be good,

but not quite good enough to win.

I have a feeling that they'll be good round here,

but then we're going to see Oscar really bounce back in future races.

And I've just got a funny feeling that, as Will said,

Ferrari have been all right around there in recent seasons,

and that Lewis will just pull something out in Roscoe's memory.

That would be really nice.

If we're doing the top three, I'll go Lewis in second.

Lewis pulled out one of the all-time great laps around this place,

like Lewis round Singapore is just gold dust.

And P3, let's go for a wild card and let's do another Carlos podium.

Why not?

I love that as well.

That's the amazing thing.

No, McLaren on the podium,

because they will qualify on the front row of the grid

and take each other out.

A term one, lap one.

If they do that now, if that happens now,

we'll wait this split back forever more.

I say Will predicted it.

Honestly, Will, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you.

Honestly, Will, we love having you on.

And we all, we hear every time you're on.

Don't think I'm just saying this.

I mean, you get the crazies, of course you do.

But we hear so many people say,

oh, it's so good to hear Will talking about F1 again.

Will, we love seeing what you're doing

and having the best time in your car.

But F1 fans miss you and love hearing you.

And we love that you come on and talk to us.

So thanks, Will.

Thank you, mate.

Really, really appreciate having you on.

Thank you both so much.

It's been so much fun.

Yeah, thank you so much, Will.

And also, we will be delivering you a Singapore debrief,

probably a bit later than usual,

maybe the UK night time or something like that.

So just subscribe, then it will just land

and you'll know when it's coming.

It will get there.

We're just both very busy people

and we've both got things on on Sunday.

But we're going to do some late night potting

and aren't we better?

Late night potting.

I'm going to have a glass of wine whilst we do it.

It'll be so fun.

That's a nice idea.

All right, I'll have a drink when we do it.

Yeah, lovely.

I'll do that.

We'll have a drink when we're doing it.

Yeah, lovely.

You join us.

Have a drink whilst you listen or watch.

Nice.

And on the basis of how loose this one got,

Sunday nights will be even more fun.

Oh, be chaos.

Be absolutely chaos.

Lovely.

Will, thank you.

Betty, thank you.

See you Sunday evening.

Bye, everyone.

Bye.

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About this episode

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