With Savagegeese - Corvette ZR1, Mustang GTD, 911 GT3RS Comparison

Traditionally, we do an intro, welcome everybody back, thank you, blah, blah, blah, the traditional

podcast stuff, and then we introduce our guests, talk about automotive news.

Yeah, you know, I think actually the news-wise, like, our guests today are probably the best

piece of news we could talk about.

So, thank you.

You guys are a very low bar for what good news is there, don't want people to see us as bad

news.

You guys are making news, we don't get news makers on the show quite as much, so, yeah,

the Savage Geese Fellows have paid us a visit here, that's how you love to be called.

The Geese Fellows is one of my favorite.

We just fly in and leave our debris everywhere.

Debris.

That sounds like you're of a significant, like, British lineage, the Geese Fellows, you

know?

But, yeah, thank you guys, seriously, we've been trying to make this happen for some weeks

now and it's overdue and, yeah, appreciate you joining us for this.

Yeah, of course.

Are you grabbing us?

Yeah, thanks to your viewers and listeners for putting up with us for the next hour,

so hopefully we bring some value to your lives.

Yeah, our thanks and our condolences.

I think you're definitely going to bring value because of the four of us, you guys

are the only two who have driven the cars we're going to talk about, we wanted to...

The Murano Cross Cab, right?

That's what we're going to be talking about.

Yes, exactly, the Murano Cross Cab.

The highlight of your year, I'm sure, of the videos that have come out in the

last month.

You're apparently very big fans of Cowl Shake, but the Mustang GTD, the Corvette

Zero One, the Zero One and the Porsche 911 GT3 RS.

You actually did a quite extensive test on them.

It's been out for a week and a half or so, but lots of effort, took a long time to

set up, so wanted to talk about it with you and kind of see what you...

You thought, I mean, the results are in the video, so everybody should go watch

the video.

We're not going to scoop you.

Don't worry.

It's well done.

But yeah, I mean, just kind of three very rarefied cars.

I'll be curious to see, I'm sure somebody will try to copy this.

Yeah, we will not be the last to do this test, almost guaranteed.

I'm excited to see what some of the other outlets get result wise as well.

Different tracks, different conditions lead to different times.

Obviously, the ring times are a little different than what we produce, though we are,

to my knowledge, at least as of now, the only outlet to get the same driver, who was

a pro, Rick Casey Jr., to run all three cars at the same time under the same testing conditions.

So we tried to make sure this was as fair as possible.

I will tell you, these lap times are probably not representative of what a normal person

will do at a track day.

Plus seeing that...

10.

Yeah, plus 10.

Yes.

It's not even just the driving part.

The engineers are there, the people who created these cars, were there setting them up to make

sure they ran optimal lap times.

Multimatic had like five or six people there setting up a car.

It was on warmers.

For a single time it went out, they're like, oh, is this perfect?

Yeah.

GM was there with blowers on the motor to keep it as cool as possible for optimal

lap times.

Straight out of one.

Yeah, straight out of like, actual, you know.

They're like, oh yeah, people will do this for their own car.

I'm like, yeah, no.

No, they won't.

It's a bit of an unfair advantage.

But I mean, if they're all doing that, then it doesn't matter.

Except for Porsche.

Porsche had two dudes, Kyle and Frank.

Yeah, yeah.

It's going to be fine.

It's a wild inverse of the expectation when Porsche shows up with the least amount of like

red tape to get the car on track.

That's a very interesting theme for what you guys found with the 911 GT3 RS.

So like that car was kind of an outlier compared to the other two in the group.

Yeah.

So I mean, I want to make some, Jack kind of talked about this and we haven't really said

this as much, but I think we found this and we didn't really bring it up in the video

is that you're going to take somebody that's probably really adept at driving, not race

car driving, and you're going to get massively different results.

And I think that's something super important.

And I think it's indicative of having Porsche there with two people because they knew the

car was just going to work.

It was just a matter of swapping tires, making sure, you know, suspension settings digitally

were all good.

And it was just go out and drive as fast as you can.

And the consistency between Britt, I and Jack was just the same with that car.

Like we were slower than Britt, but we did turn out our own individual times equally.

Whereas on the polar opposite, it was much harder to do that in the ZR1.

But Britt achieved the time that Jack and I would not be able to touch unless we spun

our entire life driving, racing and doing all this and it was not, that's not going

to be possible for most people.

So if you want to have the most, you know, accurate time and build your driving skill,

that's why we really both like the GT3 RS, it's an approachable car.

It has just the right amount of power for the chassis and it's, again, it's consistent

and that's a huge part when you're track driving.

It's lesser in an issue on the street, obviously, because everybody wants like 5,000 horsepower.

You know, I think to eight tenths, probably the ZR1 is going to be faster than the other

two cars for a regular person just because of the speed.

It's that last like nine or 10 tenths where that car, I own a C8 Z06.

So I'm more familiar with that platform than Mark is.

So I have a higher level of comfort and I was, that's probably the biggest gap

I've had off Britt.

So without warmers on the car, I ran three 125 ones on that car, which is so

ballistically fast, that's unbelievably fast as what like two seconds with me.

The car is just very fast.

Yeah, that's two seconds off his time, roughly two and a half, two and a half,

almost three, which is like one of the bigger gaps.

Normally, like I just ran a regular C8 against Britain.

Britt can pull a lap time instantaneously as a driver, but after a full

session and a regular C8 that we're doing a series on, he was only only he was

two seconds quicker than me.

So in a, you know, in a zero in a zero one is a difficult car to drive.

And I think for most people, if you're going to go 10 tenths, the GTD and

the three RS are probably more approachable to be fair as well.

The three RS, I mean, people are like, why is it in the test?

Why, why wasn't a GT2 RS in the test?

Well, the GT2 RS is six years old already.

Yeah, it is not the direct competitor for at least Ford specifically.

The GTD was benched against the GT3 RS, right?

The high arrow, high down force, high mechanical grip, track focused car.

And then obviously, GM sort of doesn't, I guess they're direct competitors,

GTD in that it's the big American supercar.

But their sort of bedfellows are like mid-engine, twin-turbo V8 supercars

at this point.

Well, the other thing to, this is the last thing I'm going to say about this

is like testing parameters that we didn't really bring up.

When we do these tests, Brit gets the treatment.

You know, all these cars are specifically ready to go with coolers, warmers,

and he gets to go out on fresh tires whenever we get to our drive.

The cars are just like, you know, the tires are completely done.

They're just like sitting there and idle for 20 minutes.

I don't know what our actual times would be if we did like

a back-to-back on fresh tires.

Brit is still going to be a lot faster.

He's going to be faster.

We've never got to experience these cars like in the perfect optimal conditions.

Brit got to do that for the sake of the test.

So, you know, like our lap times are still going to be slower.

Are they going to be three seconds, two seconds?

Even if they were one second, the chance of us getting us that close

right is just not going to happen.

What's remarkable about getting a pro to do this versus like some

of the other big magazine tests where it's a journalist is a pro driver.

I mean, they do this to get paid.

And he is on boil after the second lap.

Yeah, he basically has an out and then all of his lap times

are almost within a second of one another, half a second.

If you looked at the raw data off of GT3RS, you know, he ran

immediately a faster time than he did the first time he ran a 3RS work,

which set the lap record at a lot of that point.

And then we just started to click off faster and faster

and faster lap times all within, you know, half a second.

But that window between having fresh tires on on warmers

and the cooling aspect of the forced induction cars,

the brands really wanted those laps to be set.

The fast lap had to be set within the first four laps.

If you got outside that four lap window,

you were having degradation and falling off.

So he had to essentially, most his fast laps

were his warm up out lap on the second start.

So really his first real lap was his fastest lap.

And that's how tight that window is before you start

to see a decline.

And while we talked about this with the Chevy engineers,

they designed the entire car system holistically from cooling,

brakes, engine, you know, thermal management of everything

to only fall off within two seconds.

All these subsystems would only vary

about two seconds between them.

So you wouldn't have a gearbox issue like with temperature

or pulling back shift speed versus thermal pulling timing.

They all had to work together within a two second window

to keep consistency of the car.

Things they learned from C7 Z06 with huge overheating issues.

Yeah.

I mean that car, talking about the Z01,

when you guys get to experience one for real on a racetrack,

on the street it's pointless.

Honestly, all of these cars are equally pointless on the street.

The thermal capacity, like the engine side of the Z01

is probably the most impressive internal combustion

drivetrain I've seen.

Like flat out laps and 70 degree weather,

the highest oil temp I think I saw was like 215.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it's nuts.

Now, obviously if you get out on a hot day,

well actually Autobahn, if it was really hot out there,

if we were to code 100 degrees,

then maybe it's not 225 and 100 degree weather.

Yeah, but those cars weren't running like back to back to back

for like they did have cool down sections

in between the next groups coming out.

Which I would, you're not gonna see above like 250.

I think it's seeing 250 oil temperature.

Bogey number, it pulls power, it shuts it down at 240.

Oh really?

Yeah, 246 is bogey number.

Okay, so you, yeah.

So even so, it brings up an interesting point

because you guys just chatted with Todd and Paul

from Everyday Driver who I love

and I've been writing for them for almost 10 years now,

which is crazy.

But the bench racer, the person that buys this car

is probably gonna go to the track

and they're probably gonna be like a foot down

for the straights and then slam on the brakes

and coast and put down for the straight.

Yeah, they're gonna put down on the straight,

the first straight, scare the hell out of themselves.

Yeah.

Their thermal management will need to be very different

from what you guys see and what Brit sees

and in the same capacity, seeing consistent lap times

the way the GT3 RS pumps out

is a very different experience

from what you can sustain on a day on the track

than a car that, you know, again,

like the C7ZR, ZR1 or Z06 just says, I'm done, you know?

The philosophies are really interesting

and it's almost like the classic test, right?

The Mustang is an upstart, the Porsche is light,

always has less power, kind of does the most

with the least, right?

And its layout inverts everything

and then the Corvette, it's our supercar, right?

So it's just, it's the most power,

it's the most audacious,

although the GTD might be getting there

with just what that car is.

But it was really interesting the different flavors

and the Porsche really took the philosophy,

the kind of purity philosophy, right?

Like the best part is no part.

It's a thousand pounds lighter than everything.

It was maybe down on brute force,

but it was faster in the corners

where the other cars were slow.

Like it was faster, they were slow.

And so that was really interesting to me

and I think that's maybe a key to its sort of consistency

where it just, it doesn't have a lot of the things

to contend with that those other, the other two do.

But it was also interesting if you wanted to touch

on the amount you could set the Porsche up.

I caught that kind of as a comment,

but I don't think you really expanded too much on it

in the video, like just the way you could really dial

that car in compared to the other two.

I think you guys brought it up.

If somebody's going out to actually do track days,

one of the most important things to do,

especially when you're going to be spending $3,000

on a set of tires for most of these cars now or more,

you, you know, I mean, that's the joke of it

and the weight, right?

I mean, it's like you're just burning money.

So obviously, if you're going to be doing that,

the clear thing is, all right,

you wanna have the per track capability

of adjusting out alignment, not just like adjusting tow

because once you get into aero cars

having the correct alignment from Caster and Camber

is far more critical in like Autobahn.

I mean, this is, I'm not saying anything nobody knows,

but I did, we set up the S2000s for this like comparison,

not a comparison, like a story with the three of them

and I ran the front left and the front rear

completely destroyed them.

And when I did the alignment, you know,

you look at the sheet, you're like, oh, cool,

it's all even and you know,

it shouldn't have been even, right?

Like the left side should have had more camber in it,

but this is, that's the important thing

if you're going to a track that's, you know,

clockwise versus counterclockwise,

you have that flexibility with the Porsche

and the damper configurability,

despite the dampers compared to like the GTD,

the GTD's got probably some of the most

sophisticated damper system of any street car

aside from like something McLaren

and you have the small window of what they allowed

in their electronic programming versus the GT3RS

where you're having compression rebound

and it makes a massive difference

along with bar adjustment

because the bar adjustment's like you're fine tuning, right?

Like I just want a little bit more push

or I want it to be, you know, a little less bound up

in the front end, it gives you that flexibility

and that's something very special

that's totally understated in a car like that,

at least a track day car.

So that was one of the reasons why it won big points

at least with us when you're talking about that.

As a pure driving tool to be clear,

the 01 and the GTD give you full alignment

capability, they don't allow you

to adjust compression rebound or diff calibration

for coast and lock.

I will say for the average owner of a GT3RS,

they're not gonna know what the hell

any of that stuff is doing.

Probably not.

Particularly when they're driving.

So that's the counter argument.

None of the cars have any of the cars.

Well, that becomes a counter argument too

is like for someone like Brett

or your ultimate track day bro

or someone who drives a lot,

probably more than us,

I think that gives you even more capability

of using the 3RS as a pure driving tool.

I will fight to the death and say

that it is not as fun, fun,

meaning like the part of you that's 12 years old

and still likes matchbox cars on the carpet.

That might die factor.

Yeah, or just like the theater part.

Like the GT3RS sounds great,

but the GTD is comedy and the 01 is terror.

That is the missing part of the 3RS,

but as a driving tool,

the fact that you can do all of that.

Well, it's all the systems together, right?

And that's what I was talking about

with the alignment part.

The alignment part's really important,

but it's only as good as your fine tune adjustment

of those individual settings

where the Corvette and the GTD are very much locked in

on their controls engineers deciding for you

how it's going to be.

And the Corvette is very, very,

their control systems are probably some of the best

in the industry for a car of that power.

But at the end of the day, it's really,

you go and race one or race two,

it's like you just have to trust that that's what they did.

You know, like this setup is optimal for every track.

They did.

No, no, no, it works.

GM does very well with PTM.

But does that make it less fun though?

Cause I think you guys also mentioned like

you immediately feel the most comfortable in the GT3RS.

And while the 01 is the fastest with the systems on,

it's kind of like that like that aerospace thing, right?

Where they make an unflyable plane

and let the computer sort it out.

And that's almost what it sounds like the 01 is like

that car would be such a handful without the systems.

I think it depends on the track,

which is the interesting part about this.

Like at a really big track,

like a road America that doesn't have a lot of tight

decreasing turns, the 01 would be tremendous, right?

You have, or like a Coda,

like the fear element wasn't there

and it didn't feel like a handful to drive.

It just felt like a teleportation device

where you're just like, you know, going between straights.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm here and I'm there.

Yeah, we're auto, and there's a lot of fun in that

where if you were in a high downforce,

like the three RS is going to feel slow.

Yeah.

Like a Coda back to back.

You'll just have a lot of time thinking about,

oh, I'm going through this sweeper at 30 miles an hour

or 20 miles an hour slower than these other cars.

It's second and a half slower than the zero.

How long is Autobahn?

So two or two miles.

It's over 2.1 or 2.2.

Around South, they have a full circuit.

Some articles quoted this.

They're like, it's a three mile, that's the full track.

We use South for our consistent leaderboard.

That's really what people do anyway for testing.

All their, most of their testing race car tests

are on South usually, so.

So fun is subjective is what I'm going to say.

It depends on your personality type.

He and I like different things in cars.

Yeah, I think I had this discussion with Chris Barber

who is one of the Corvette engineers.

And, you know, we were talking about the brake stuff

because this was a big argument between us.

And this is becoming increasingly big argument

along with vehicle weight.

And this is, this is my personal problem

with all these modern cars is

the weight keeps going up and they can't mitigate it.

So they're just keeping, they keep adding more

and more power along with adding more power

requires bigger brake systems,

more electronics to mitigate all the weight

and to keep people safe.

So it's just this constant add and add and add.

And I complained about it with the GTD engineers.

I complained about it with Corvette.

And at the end of the day with the Corvette engineer,

there's this philosophy difference

because what they really want is their core customers

are older.

Their core customers that can afford

$150,000 Corvette are, or are weight.

$200,000 or $500,000.

I don't want to mean like, in general,

they're going to be older.

So they need this safety net that only the electronics

can provide at this amount of horsepower.

So what you sacrifice is from zero to 80%

or 90% driving, the car is completely in control,

completely safe.

But what you lose is that last,

I would say 15% of feel and driver engagement

because the car starts to do everything for you.

Everything is completely relegated

to the electronic realm.

And while they argue you can turn everything off,

which you can, it's not about turning it off.

It's about what you're feeling at that last 10%,

which is you don't feel what's going on in the brakes.

You don't feel anything coming back to you

through the steering and the chassis

is much more numbed out than the other cars.

And that's my issue with these performance cars

is they've been kind of watered down

because of their target demographic of buyer needs it

to be and there's less pureness

in the driving feedback, which is really lost.

And that's why we constantly talk about like modern SIM

companies are doing a better job at delivering like feedback

through steering wheels and pedals digitally

than the car manufacturers are doing now

because they are so focused on giving you feedback

to feel something.

Now the car companies are struggling

because they've removed those feedback loops

from drivers in these high performance cars.

And that was my big thing with Corvette

is I don't feel what's going on with the car.

I'm hitting the gas in the straight.

I am absolutely flying.

But at the end of the straight,

I'm like there's no feedback to me

when I'm stopping or turning.

Other than the G-Force.

Other than the G-Force, but it's not an orange.

Yeah.

So that's the best way I can explain it

with electronics and everything.

It's not a bad thing, but it's a bad thing

when it starts to take the driver

out of the loop of the car.

Yeah.

It's been coming for a while too, right?

Like that was the criticism of the GTR

back when that dropped.

I think it's funny because if you drive a GTR now,

it feels almost like a more analog car.

Yeah.

All of these systems are mechanical.

I'll say it's not at a counterpoint,

but it's sort of an addendum to what Mark said.

You know, the chassis feel of the VAT

versus the other two cars comes down to,

even though it's a ZTK, ZR1,

their clientele is not a GT customer

where if you buy a GT3 RS

and you talk to like a York Bergmeister

or an AP, Andreas Breininger,

they're like, yeah, I don't give a shit

how it drives on the street.

Like it has to be streetable,

but you're driving it to the racetrack.

You're not gonna try to GT this car.

So they're running spherical bushings everywhere,

no NVH material, lightweight glass,

where, and all of that NVH that exists

in the GT3 RS on the street

gets translated as feel on the racetrack,

where one of the things that's either cool

or bad about the ZR1 is that

because there is a layer of isolation,

you can still actually use the car as a car.

What the hell are you gonna do

with a 1,064 horsepower car on the street?

You're not sure.

But you can still use it as an actual car on the street.

The brake thing, I wanna be clear

that the problem is in the car doesn't stop.

It stops phenomenally well

and I imagine that the 10-piston Alcon setup

will stop even better that they move to for 26s.

We drove a 25.

The issue, and it's a systems issue

from controls across all modern manufacturers.

GM just happens to be using

a electronic brake booster in all of their cars,

specifically in the C8,

because they wanna use the same brake booster

in cars like ZR1X and E-Ray that have Regen

and as in their regular vehicles

from a manufacturing perspective and a supply issue.

Yeah, it makes-

EBB, which is an electronic brake booster,

in their case they use Bosch,

Ford uses Continental,

so does BMW.

The feedback loop,

while there's still a physical connection

between the pedal and the master

if something bad happened,

the actual feedback loop in the pedal,

like in a racing sim, is digitally controlled.

The idea is that when you go to apply the brakes,

just like you do in an M car

or a new S650 Mustang or really everything now,

even regular 911s, non-GT cars,

that feedback loop is all digital.

It's just, this is what it's gonna feel like

every single time.

And then when you get feedback,

vibration through the car or pad buildup,

it's through the chassis, it's not through the pedal.

It's a problem, like Bentley,

I had a long call with Bentley

who uses the system, they're like,

yeah, we don't know what the fuck to do.

Like there is no feedback in the pedal.

I'm surprised that's an issue for Bentley,

like their customers don't strike these people's care.

It's, because they're using it in their super GT,

super large cars, okay, yeah.

But you don't feel,

the main problem is you don't feel

when you're about to get into ABS,

which you're going to get into in high horsepower,

high downforce, very sticky track-based cars.

It's an issue in Z06, but it's not a big of an issue

because you're not carrying 20 miles an hour faster

in the straightaway and you're not generating

500 more pounds of downforce or whatever it makes.

Becomes the issue gauging basically when you're in ABS,

which is what he was running into.

When you're in it, your distance has just increased.

Well, you don't know what's going on

because the pedal feels the same every single time,

right, like you could be on ice, you could be on dry

and the pedal always feels nice and firm

because it's all, it's fake, right?

So the best way to put it is if you've been driving a car

with ABS, when you come down a straight,

like we did with bumpy payment and you're like full on,

the car's not stopping and you don't hear

and you don't, you don't hear the ABS pump.

You don't feel it through the pedal.

So you're like, why isn't this stopping

and my foot's into the firewall on, you know,

the pedal and it just feels like you're in ice mode.

So there's-

Yeah, historically we have relied on our senses

to tell us what braking means.

And if you lose some of those senses,

assuming that you have already, you know,

experienced the same parameters in different cars

or past situations, if you don't have those same senses,

suddenly your shit moment becomes a problem.

Yeah, and I think that's really what we're trying

to get at here with these cars

and trying to explain to people that haven't driven them

that there's a cost to continually making these cars

faster and faster.

And the cost is there's a lot more complication in weight

and electronic systems to make it safe

for those people that are buying it.

And the cost really becomes, we're in a generation of cars

that all of them are so fast that most people can't even

get to those last like two or three tents

and that we see it in EVs,

we see it in these ultra expensive cars now.

And I feel like it's going to this extreme level

of the diminishing returns of do you need this much

and how much are you willing to sacrifice

in terms of delivering an experience back to a driver?

Because if I can get on a Sim

and have a better brake puddle

than a thousand horsepower, $200,000 car,

I think we're going in the wrong direction.

And this is just a discussion,

it's not about right or wrong,

but I'd like to see some revision of,

let's think about trying to deliver a little less power,

find some better balance.

That's what Porsche is doing currently with the new GT3.

Right, you can, people are gonna argue that the GT3 RS

is far less far more digital

than the previous generation cars too.

And again, even they're struggling with this

and internally they've told us too,

like we don't know how we're gonna manage

the next generation of these cars

with all the requirements that they have to meet,

a mission sound especially,

they have to nerf the whole car

to try to get it within, to fit in all of these boxes.

And it's frustrating.

I can feel their frustration because I'm frustrated.

So, but as an engineer,

that's also interesting for them

because I spoke to at the Turbo launch

with the 911 Turbo 992.2, I was just at the launch for it.

I spent a lot of time with the Lee Chassis guy

for all of regular Series 911s and Model Linehead.

Really, both very, very cool people

and they have amazing careers.

Like imagine being in charge of every modern 911,

non-GT car and how they drive, that is your job.

You have a very cool job and you're very good at it.

They would all be air cool.

I don't think so.

And you talk to these guys and there's the two sides.

There's like, I wish I could build whatever the hell I wanted.

Like I could in their mind 20 years ago,

but they also like the challenge part.

So, like the brake feel and the regular Series 911s,

even 911 Turbo, they're using the same EBB system.

So they don't have a lot of,

they have no brake feel, just like the brake feel,

like it doesn't translate it through the pedal.

Synthetic, it's all synthetic.

They want you to know you're slowing down by the Gs,

which to be fair, you do know you're slowing down

or not slowing down based on the G-forces going through.

Most people probably like, go ahead, Dan.

And she's like, how do you modulate?

Because that isn't all senses thing.

Like, it's...

You don't.

Yeah.

I mean, your body just gets used to it

as you drive the car.

And I think there's a layer of linearity

to all of the pedals and like,

even the Corvette, someone who drives one,

it's a linear pedal.

It's just the feedback loop coming back

when you're at threshold becomes an issue.

And you do know you're slowing down well or not

based on the Gs, your body's feeling.

Porsche's work around it,

I assume it's the same work around that GM is doing

with the Tempest and Alcans on the 26s,

is the car gets into ABS less often.

You don't have to feel ABS

if your car never gets into ABS.

Which is sort of a roundabout way to fix a problem.

The joy that the GTD has,

I mean, Porsche doesn't have this problem

in their GT cars for now because it's vacuum-based.

It's a regular braking system.

You know when you're in ABS, you know when you're not.

I'll be curious how they do it for their future GT cars

that don't use the four-liter

because the four-liter is an older engine.

It's architected to have a vacuum-based braking system.

It's what, 15 years old now?

Yeah, we're a regular, the 36,

which is probably what they're gonna use

or a derivative of it in their new

high horsepower variant.

Was never architected for a vacuum-based system.

I know talking to them, they're like,

we don't know how the fuck we're gonna do this.

So there's that part of it,

so we'll be curious to see what they do.

But the Mustang's joy, because the S650,

I think it's a mix of body structure

and the fact that they tuned it really well.

Well, it's also a different brake booster supplier.

And that has a lot to do with the actual hardware

that they're choosing.

You can only do so much with controls

if the hardware's not gonna support

what your intended goal is.

So Ford has really, in this case,

for a brake booster setup,

their supplier is, they're integrated far better

and you feel stuff into jack's point.

Because of the body structure,

there is ABS pump, like noise,

and feedback through the car.

You may not feel it through the pedal,

but it's transmitting something.

So you were asking, like, feedback loop,

how do you approximate it?

Certain cars, because this Corvette's so isolated out,

all of that's gone, right?

Like you don't, it's like swiping a slider

for temperature on a car.

You kind of can do it,

but it's a different temperature every time you slide it.

That's what it's like with your foot.

You're like, okay, I'm pretty sure

it's gonna be any ABS,

so I'm gonna get to this point.

And then you're gonna approximate it every time.

Or with the GTD, you're like,

okay, I can kind of feel the pump through the car.

I know I'm an ABS, so I can lift out a little bit.

You know?

It's a must, right?

It goes back to that feel part.

Yeah.

Yeah, so, okay.

So I wanna tie all of this together

because we've been talking about nuances of everything.

We jumped right into this.

Nuances of everything for a while now.

But the crux of this whole comparison test

is that the numbers and your respective

personal preference finishing order are almost inverse.

You know, consider them opposite

for all intents and purposes.

And it really just perpetuates that idea that,

you know, like us, the four of us having this conversation

are not the traditional mass market buyers for these cars.

You know, the automakers, their ultimate goal

is to make money.

And the way for them to make money

is to improve the times and have bigger numbers

and sell faster cars.

But the people who are deep in the enthusiast side

of the world, it's not that we don't give a shit about it

because obviously we do.

We track lap times and, you know,

we quote stats up and down.

But, you know, the experience,

the actual, I'm not sitting by a computer.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's, yeah, that's Todd and Paul's whole thing.

You can't drive a spec sheet, you know?

But, and I did want to talk about

how your order of preference is very dissimilar

to the track times, but.

And dissimilar from one another.

Also, yeah, yeah, for sure.

I think you guys, I think we've already

really hit on our philosophies of why I think,

you know, like to have GT3RS at the top

is because you have a company

that has absolutely perfected this formula

of they, you know, the track day car

that borrow so much from Motorsports pedigree.

Like this car is really kind of a one-to-one,

as much as you can be for a street car.

And the people that are behind it,

this is their life's work.

And I'm not saying that it isn't GTD or Corvette,

but Corvette really is in its first generation

of trying this formula.

And they've gotten unbelievable,

their amount of, what they've been able to do.

The first little clutch,

first mid-engine generation car, blah, blah, blah.

But you feel it.

You feel those cycles of learning in the GT3RS.

And I think the people that want that

really appreciate the mechanical almost

as much as you can make a perfect car in that regard

in having a naturally aspirated engine,

which is largely devoid of like it's gone, right?

So aside from the Z06 to that level

at a price point like this.

So it's a special experience

because they're doing something

that nobody else is really doing anymore.

And you know, when we did the LFA thing,

like, well, why is this gone?

You know, we would have loved to have

a naturally aspirated V8 to, you know,

some of the V10, you know, something like that.

You know, where all these Honda, you know,

affordable engines and look at all the four cylinders

that are out there now, they're just so nerfed

and everything's turbocharged.

So that GT3RS is like, ah, yes.

There's still something like this left

where you feel like you're driving the car,

even though it's doing a lot for you.

That's why it's so special.

It's not because it's gonna spend the fastest lap time

or it's gonna blow your passengers away

and make them car sick every time they get into it.

And everybody that got into the 3RS

that we put into it that is kind of likes cars,

but is not that extreme, they immediately feel

they have full control of this car.

Confidence, visibility, directness of the car is so sharp

where the other two cars are always like this question mark.

This question mark, I can't really feel the car around me.

It's bigger, it's more just imposing

and it's not really necessarily a bad way

but the 3RS just gives you so much confidence

in all of that.

It's the car my wife liked the most.

I mean, she's done track days, she's driven the,

she did the Spring Mountain School in a Z06

and she's a perfectly adequate track day driver

and she immediately got into the 3RS,

she's even on the street, she's like, oh, this makes sense.

She's driven a lot of Porsche's,

but like, oh, this just makes sense.

I think that's probably, he and I disagree on,

I love Porsche's or I grew up watching them.

And I'm not a Porsche person, you know,

like this is kind of right.

So it's funny that we disagree, yeah.

He could talk about this for hours and hours

about Porsche's, I just don't care, you know, but.

So it is funny that we're reversing that regards.

For me, it's the GTD, like I think the,

as a unique experience, like I think about these cars,

none of them are race cars, the likelihood,

you're gonna see, you know, zero ones in grid life

and at SCCA events because they're gonna come down

in price or be sticker and you know,

the funny part about the zero one is,

it's a testament to that company that they can build.

I guarantee you, it's gonna be the fastest car

at like lightning lot this year

and probably be one of the fastest cars they've ever tested.

Until the zero one.

Probably the fastest car they've ever tested.

I know for me, when I ran a car at Kota

in lead follow with Brian Wallace,

I ran a 217 around Kota,

which is faster than a P1 driven by

an actual like professional race car driver.

Guarantee you, it's gonna be one

of the fastest cars ever made.

100%.

That said, you know, outside of that,

none of these cars are real race cars.

You're driving them because you wanna have a good time

and if you drive like a 488 or like a modern

mid-engine twin turbo V8 super car thing,

the experience is not maybe as good

but it's similar to what you get in like a zero one.

That mid-engine twin turbo V8 thing

is becoming more commonplace.

Like it's a more, I hate to say common

but it's an experience you can replicate.

You drive a GT3 RS, perfection as far as what he said,

it's a perfect driving tool.

You drive a regular GT3, you get a lot of that experience.

You drive an older GT3, you get a lot of that experience.

You drive a regular 911, you get some of that experience.

There ain't nothing like a GTD.

You know what, I'm gonna kind of like,

this is something we didn't talk about in the test

and we didn't bring it up.

And there's a really harsh reality

to all three of these cars, the real world part of it.

I drove all of them back to back

before they went on the street,

back to back on the same route.

You go out in the ZR1,

you are not getting traction in that car ever.

I think you are gonna just absolutely roast

in first, second, and third gear.

There is no way you're getting traction in that car

unless you're in like a hundred degree temperature

until you get those cars.

Is it boost by gear?

Or is it?

It is, yeah.

They do limit it.

First gear is limited and I think,

second might be.

They're limited in first, yeah, have fun after that.

They have to.

Second might be, but third, fourth, and fifth,

you get full power.

But you're always fighting for traction in that car.

You know, we're talking about race track stuff

in optimal conditions, of course, that's great.

But on the street, that power is not completely usable.

The GTD had the similar problem,

although it was much better

because of the way that they control like boost

and the way that the power comes on,

but you're always fighting for traction in the rear

on cold tires.

And then the X factor is the GTD,

you get in it and after you're off the track

and you look at what that car delivers,

it's got a $50,000 Mustang interior

and you can't get away from it.

It feels like, it feels everything feels like.

It looks like 30,000, whatever.

It looks, yeah.

It's an extra GT.

It's gonna be nice.

You're trying to be kind, yeah.

It's not good.

It's got a plaque, doesn't have a plaque somewhere.

It's got a plaque.

Yeah, I mean, hey, if you pay like $14,000,

you get bits of titanium in the interior space.

Well, wee.

That's the thing, that's the thing.

You're driving these things on the street

and the things that they're designed on paper

to deliver, they have a hard time delivering

and the GTD struggles is,

even though that's my second favorite car

because of the engine and the suspension,

on the street, it just, I got it in.

I'm like, man.

I think it's the most presence on the street.

It's got the most presence on the outside

but when you're sitting on the inside,

like, barely.

It's just, why does a Raptor is from what I had.

But I think part of that, to me though,

lends to, it's not the interior part,

that part's disappointing.

The actual driving part,

there's, again, there's nothing else like it.

There are lots of Porsche shows

and there are lots of mid-engine supercars.

Yep.

Which is why we both put the GTD higher than the ZR1.

To me, it was number one.

Just because you drive that car

and it feels like a Trans Am car, right?

It's enormous.

It's wide.

You have unlimited mechanical grip.

You have unlimited aero grip,

the most out of the group

and what other big supercharged V8

that's front engine exists?

Nothing.

That, nothing sounds like it.

It really is.

It's an engineering tour de force.

I think it was meant to do a couple of things.

It's inspiration is the GT3 race program.

So it's similar to the GT3 RS in that sense.

And like you said,

Farley was like we are going to go head to head with Porsche

with the Mustang.

And it achieves that.

I think it was meant to show like, yeah, we're Ford

and we race.

It went hand in hand with a relaunch of Ford Performance

which they just renamed themselves for racing.

And F1 next year for Ford.

Yeah.

They really, really want to make sure

that every weekend somewhere around the world

there's a Ford racing and the Mustang

is kind of their flagship platform for it.

Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Yeah.

I mean, sort of, but to just show like we can do this.

And that car like,

I know Multimatic had a heavy hand in it,

but it really does show a lot of what they can do

and just the thought and attention to detail

and that the Aero I think is the most amazing part

of the GTD, which is kind of the story that gets,

I think maybe lost a little bit

because you're talking about the dry sump supercharged

for Yate and the push, rod, rear suspension.

All very impressive.

But the Aero on that car is, they put so much time.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah.

Well, they had a discussion, which I don't want to get to

because I don't know how much we can talk about it,

but there was a discussion about the engine on the GTD

because they wanted it to be more like GT3, right?

They wanted a naturally aspirated engine,

not a supercharged engine, right?

And the argument was, you know, a power thing.

It wasn't about like what the better engine was

because clearly on the surface, you know what that means.

Having a big supercharged V8 is going to be much heavier

than a naturally aspirated GT3.

But make a lot more power.

So on the marketing side, do you want the bigger number

or do you want the lighter weight, like higher revving?

Do you want a number lower than a Z06?

So probably their motorsports V8 is maybe capable

of 600, 620, without a restrictor,

reliably with a warranty.

You're still below a Z06 max.

Yeah, but that was our discussion is like

when we talked about this,

because we talked to Ford originally

about the GTD before the comparison,

and I knew nothing about this car.

I just didn't care when I saw the price tag.

We got in there and we talked to our Ford rep

and when he told us that the car was reutilizing

the S650, like body and white,

I'm like, dude, what are we doing here?

Why would they do this?

And it goes back to, it's nothing against the engineers.

It's the amount of money they have budget allocated

to redo it.

If they wanted a new interior, like we were complaining about,

it would require a brand new body and white.

And they told us, you're talking about a million dollar car

to redevelop the body and white for a one off for this car.

And that's why it wasn't, that's a big consideration.

And this is the one car that didn't matter as much

if it made money or not, right?

The ZR1 is a profit center, technically.

Not as much as a regular Stingray

in the grand scheme of a P&L statement,

but it has to make money.

It's not an advertising car.

It has to make money on a P&L statement.

And the GT3 RS makes Porsche a lot of time.

Oh, you get break down.

It's the highest profits of any automaker.

Let me ask you guys a question.

This is a philosophical question then

because the GTD, if you could technically,

because this choice really on paper,

because that's what they're fighting about,

what's the best car on paper really,

the GTD failed their mission, right?

If you're doing a bench racing argument, it failed.

Yeah, it's the slowest car by like three seconds.

Do you take, what's worse, to fail and give it all that power

or to charge more money for the right body and weight

with the lighter engine and have a completely...

But it's a million dollar car.

They're gonna sell every single one of them regardless.

Like it's half dozen or one, you know, six, eight.

But it no longer looks like a Mustang.

No, no, it'll look like a Mustang.

Oh yeah, they'll have the pony.

Yeah, let's just say it looked the same on the outside,

but they solved the weight issue of the body and weight

and having a lighter engine in it.

What's the better outcome to do what you want for more money

or to have a car that's losing because of the weight?

Yeah, well, I mean, that's the conendrum, right?

That's what engineers are in N2-2 is like,

well, we have two choices and we could make the case

for each, what is the better way to go?

I mean, the link back to flat rock,

how every GTD starts off as a body and weight at flat rock

and it goes then to multi-matic weight,

it does get sliced and diced,

but there's a direct link back to every other Mustang.

Just like that 9-11 kind of link

with all the special ones, like that there's value there.

They could make the interior a little nicer.

Could is a nice way to play.

Using the same body and weight

and the same hard points and everything,

but it's true.

It's like, well, look, we gave you all of this

because we have the same crappy hard door panels

that everybody else gets in their rental.

It is a balance and if you don't put that supercharged V8 in,

you're immediately explaining why your car is inferior, right?

And I know it's the slowest in your test or whatever,

but like the bench racing, the paper numbers,

they're a lot closer, they're a lot better.

Anytime you're charging more for less

and you have to explain why your car is superior,

you're sort of in that, like you're behind people.

I agree with you, Dan.

I think you're in between a rock and a hard place, right?

No pun intended.

Yeah, yeah.

But if you're dropping 1,200 pounds off your car,

you're no longer having the power to weight argument.

Although the number may not look peak,

you're negating the fact that

you're not having to deal with so much mass.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a lot of thermal management that goes into it

and keeping the numbers consistent.

Superchargers to interface, shit.

But there's also like the factor of like unabashed

fan, you know, the person that will buy something

with a logo on it or a brand name on it,

regardless of how fast it is or what the times are, you know.

And again, they exist to sell cars and make money,

you know, they're not trying to appease us.

It needed to be properly bombastic

and I think they achieved that goal for sure.

I would say that's actually why we really like it.

Despite all of that, I just said,

the counterpoint is this is the best thing

about that car is the screaming supercharger.

It doesn't give a shit.

And it looked like you guys were having a ton of fun

and it just kind of tossed it around.

And it drives, despite how digital the car is,

I think the controls team there,

they have figured out how to get Steve and his team

and everybody else that works on it,

like Greg, the chief engineer.

They have perfected the tools they have for that car.

It is some of the best steering E-pass

as of the GT3 RS.

Yeah, we told Steve Thompson

who does the V-Dine stuff.

To me, other than the 3 RS,

it's the best car I've ever driven on track.

We're just sitting here arguing about weight

and the slower time.

It is by far one of the best to drive on track

you'll ever get because everything works

so well as an experience.

But you feel like that's the best part about it.

You feel like you're going fast

and you feel like you're breaking every record

when you're driving that car.

And I think that's the magic of it.

And it's one of the easiest cars

I've ever power slid in my entire life.

Like those power slides are the top of third entry.

Like you're carrying wheel speed,

triple digit wheel speed.

I'd like to try that.

Maybe they can open the door.

That was a $700 power slide

every time you go into a corner.

The most expensive power slide of my life is ZR-1.

We need three of them.

They gave me a brand new set of Pilot 4S's to do them.

And I spun the second one.

I did a perfect first, a really good third

and the fourth attempt to get just for coverage shots

chunked the tires.

So it went from brand new to no more tires in four slides.

And I've never seen them.

Damn.

So, yeah.

We should.

Like legitimately, that's got to be

one of the most expensive cars to try to power slide.

You will bankrupt yourself

if you turn into a Formula Drift car

in about two seconds.

People will buy them on cars and bids in 10 years

for like 70 grand are gonna be for a real awakening.

People are gonna die if you get that car

when they're like 70 grand.

It's not gonna be, yeah.

Date code 2026.

Oh, you are in trouble.

But we should, we should touch on this though.

Like everybody's gonna have something to say

about your finished product, right?

About your test and sort of the results

or your impressions, but it's easy again

to kind of sit across the internet and take shots.

Like the amount of effort

that goes into that finished product,

I think that's lost on a lot of people.

Even just a simple car review with some pictures

takes way more effort than most people realize.

So like what actually goes into it?

How many people did you have?

Supporting you with other logistics?

How many days and hours did it take?

Between, between OEM, OEM support camera,

Brit and everybody that's involved for that,

for the three car shoot.

How many people do you think touched the fire across?

I wanna put this out there before we say that

because I wanna acknowledge the fact

that this is not possible without all of those

engineers that made these cars possible.

Like we get to arm share a quarterback,

their products that they spent their life making,

like we had something to do with it.

This way I'm not.

That's what Dan and I are doing

every time we record a show

when we keep talking about this stuff.

My opinion is something everybody should listen to.

We're not more important than the cars.

We're not more important than the engineers.

They know way more than we would ever know.

We're just, I'm super grateful

that we even get to be in the same room

to understand why they did the things they did

and how much work that went into them.

So like on the back end, yeah,

we have to do a lot of work to make these videos,

to make it happen, to get these people together.

But it's not four years of development

like these guys are working on a car for.

Right, basically we're just shitposting their work.

You know, at the end of the day, like,

oh, why did they do this?

Like, dude, get out of here, we're nobody.

So like, I don't wanna be so self-serious.

Like we've deserved this.

It was a lot of work to do

and that's why it came together

because this is kind of what we've gotten good at doing.

But again, I'm so grateful

that they even gave us the opportunity to do it

and they spent their time.

So on their end, Jack, talk about your development part.

To add to that, we're not just saying this.

They are some of the most impressive people

we've met doing this.

All the people that come out

to support us on our big projects,

I'm always so grateful that I get to learn

from someone 40 times smarter than me.

And if I get to learn one thing

in the couple of days I'm with them,

it's a humbling experience.

And a lot of these people are super nice,

they're funny, they have great family.

They're fun people.

On the back end,

as you know what it's like to deal with PR folks,

we're really lucky in that we've built

really strong relationships with a lot of the PR teams.

Like the guys at Corfet are some of my outside of work

are some of my favorite people.

The guys at Ford are great.

And the people at Porsche are genuinely some of my friends

that I talk to all the time.

And Porsche immediately said yes.

They said yes like a year ago.

They're like, oh, you wanna do this?

We'll get a GT3 RS, scrolled away.

Let us know when.

Those are like the US team

is a small flat organization

that run by people who love cars.

And we've been our first big project

that sort of greenlit this was like two years ago.

So we did our first GT3 versus Z06.

That took a lot of convincing and a lot of negotiating

and like, hey, we promise we won't totally fuck this up.

We didn't.

But you got lucky.

So everything else has been a lot easier.

Cause it's the same guys then like Kyle,

the technician engineer or whatever you wanna call him

PR guy who supported that test,

supported this test two years later.

Literally I joke that I have a punch card

with him every single time I see him.

Hey, welcome back.

Yeah.

You gotta have the engineers

set lap times against each other

and something with like a control, you know?

Yeah.

Like a Murano cross cab.

We should have them all drive the Murano.

Yeah.

If you don't roll it and land on your dome, you won.

Yeah.

So that was easy, not easy,

but it took a lot of work over the years,

but this request was easy.

GM because we basically, once we did the zero one,

we got really, really early access.

We did a mini documentary on zero one.

That was, the engineer said yes,

then it took some convincing internally at PR

and senior leadership because it's their flagship

gonna go to head to head with the other big boy

in town, Ford.

Ford probably took the longest to say yes,

just because it's a newest car.

But honestly from start to finish with the big three,

it took about nine months to get this all organized.

Damn.

Yeah.

And then, you know, honestly this only happens

because we're like you guys an independent outlet

because we have sponsors, so Bridgestone

and in this video's case, Amsoil,

they basically help fund our production

and unlike like a top gear or a car driver

or a Haggerty or something,

I can't spend $40,000 on a shoot and lose money.

We didn't spend $40,000, you know what I mean?

It has to at least break even for this to work.

And so dealing with that part of it

and our crew is tiny.

It is Mark who does all the editing.

Me who does some of the filming

and sort of the business bullshit in the background.

Deb was our contractor.

She's Andy the lab.

She's a content creator.

Very, if you like dogs, she's two great dogs.

A great person.

She helped us shoot a lot of the coverage shots.

We have a PA, his name is Chris Brown,

just like that Chris Brown,

that looks nothing like that Chris Brown

and can't sing unfortunately or fortunately.

And then we have Brad, that is our entire crew.

And then of course we have Audubon

who we've partnered with over the years at this point.

And for those who don't know,

it's a country club style track in Joliet, Illinois.

And they are one of the best facilities possible

to be partnered with.

Cause they're their staff,

corner workers, track managers,

you know, the events team there

helps us use a track, do it safely

and help coordinate with like food

and everything else for the engineers.

Basically we turn this into a press event

whenever we do one of these shoots

that we are hosting for manufacturer

with the help of Audubon and everybody else.

They get to come and look at other people's cars

in these instances and hands on

that they might not otherwise.

So the shoot was three days.

The planning was nine months.

And then the edit was like two weeks.

Ah yeah, some like that.

Two weeks?

That's pretty fast.

For like an hour long show.

I chain him to the radiator in his basement

and I just hit him at it.

He got it done, you know?

Yeah, he got it done too.

That's a lot, because what was the amount of,

I mean, you guys with a small crew,

typically you're probably pretty economical

with like your ratio and stuff,

the amount of sort of keepers you have to take.

But that's still a lot of footage.

Like a multi-cam shoot you had.

How many hours of footage do you think we have?

How much did you have to sift through log

and kind of choose?

Like that's a ton.

I've been there.

This one, there's a lot just,

you know, typically I can't afford to have,

like this is what I told Jack.

We did, I forgot what comparison test we did before this.

It was like two before and I just told Jack

we can't do this again.

Like I'm not even kidding you.

The amount of cost versus return from ad revenue.

Because Jack thinks about it from the planning

and he doesn't really count his own time

of how much this stuff takes.

But when we get out there

and you're burning a week's worth of headcount

for him just dedicating to this,

you're burning two weeks of my time

and then I have to like,

if I pay Chris to come out and help.

Yeah, Chris and Brett and every dad and everything.

And then so we're basing,

you're basically taking four plus headcount like full time

and you're gonna get ad revenue back

on some of these videos

and maybe if you're lucky $2,000.

It's just, all you do is lose money.

All you do is burn money and that's on me, right?

Like the stress comes back on me.

This is not working because oh, it's cool.

You know, we get to go to the track

and make these big videos.

It's not cool when you're like, I'm gonna be bankrupt.

So we've had to really go back

and look at it.

Or psychologically corrupt after the stress comes through.

That's the typical concern of anybody

going to the track for any reason.

And this is the car thing, right?

Like people like, oh, look at all the cars

you get to drive.

I'm like, yeah, there's a cost to this, you know?

And while we're not getting paid by the brands

or whatever, we've had to get a lot more,

I've had to get more smart about how we do this.

And in this case, you know, the sponsorship stuff,

it has to be there.

If we want to make these big videos,

and I was gonna do this all myself with the filming.

And I made the decision early on,

I'm like, I gotta have Deb out.

And this is not something that Deb usually does, right?

Like she's done IMSA coverage and stuff like that,

but she's like, well, how can I help?

I'm like, I just need you with a gimbal

recording everything.

You know, try to just get everything.

Yeah, she didn't dangle out of the cars,

but she went like, you know,

help get footage of people working on vehicles.

When we dino the cars at your W,

she was, and she basically shot all the footage there

because by that point, we were toast.

Well, yeah, on two days,

like filming everything plus audio capture

and then coverage, it's like, it's a lot for one person.

So she supplemented it.

And then by the time we had all the footage

from these three days, now it's on me.

I don't get to farm that out because there's no way,

you're gonna farm somebody out economically

to do what we did.

And while, yes, this is not like a Hollywood production

and you could argue everybody's like,

well, look at like Haggerty's kind of the benchmark

with those guys.

You have the budget to have all these people

doing these individual tasks,

and I can't afford to do that.

So I have to get better at not only doing it more quickly,

but making it look like it's better than it is.

But also not going, I mean, I understand why Matt

wants it successful, but not doing car wow

where it's like two go pros.

Right, it can't be shit out.

It can't take three months of production

like Haggerty or two months of production.

I had to get this edited in a week and a half.

And this project had to be done in under three weeks.

So did you go in then with a narrative and a structure

where you like obviously you don't have a outcome?

It's not fully scripted.

In the car, it's not scripted at all.

But you know, you know, like we're shooting this segment,

we're shooting that segment, we're gonna plug it in here

and here and here.

And it does change, right?

Like you can't go into some of these

and know what you're gonna walk into.

You know, you can have an idea of like,

as you guys know, like, okay,

I know we're gonna do this stuff,

but not until we meet all these engineers

and we come up with the problems or we talk to Brit.

Like, you don't really know how to formulate it.

So at the end, it's really in the editing

to understand here's what we have,

now what do we do to cover it?

And that's really hard when you're on a tight timeline

like this.

And the other concern is how many other people

are gonna bandwagon and try to copycat

the stuff that we've been working on for nine months?

Right.

So it's like, I would like to take, you know.

Right, I don't wanna just throw it all away

because somebody beat us to it

after all of this planning.

So that's the rat race we're in, you know,

at the end of the day.

I mean, everybody struggles with this in media.

And I don't ever care about being first,

but this is one where like,

well, the amount of work, yeah.

Yeah, it's a, yeah, anyway.

Moving on to, sorry.

Yeah, moving on to two different topics,

just being talking as in of time.

So please, if you're listening to this,

go watch the GTD-013RS video on loop,

just for, just loop it for like the next 50 months,

just loop it.

You'll make sure I can feed my dog.

VPNs.

And then, yeah.

It's a good time.

It's worth watching.

It goes quick.

It doesn't feel like an hour, which is cool.

We have two other things that are coming out.

We have an S2000 piece,

which we can talk to you guys about in the future.

Where Mark forced me to go to Japan with him

two years ago to interview some Japanese engineers

who didn't like us very much.

When we did the NSX documentary,

I was like, who are you?

I'm like, I don't know.

Like, all right, let's,

let me drag you to your nursing home

to film this about some car you worked on 30 years ago.

Literally 30 years ago at this point.

So it's our 30th anniversary piece.

That's Mark's baby.

Like this, this audio or whatever.

Some year's anniversary piece.

It's got a four cylinder mark.

I don't care.

AP-1 or AP-2?

Which are we?

We can talk about that.

I think the answer is yes, from the pictures.

It's AP-1, AP-2, and then CR all together.

But the AP-1 is the King Motorsports car.

Mugen car.

That it has the original prototype engine

from when they were trying to figure out

what they were gonna do between AP-1 and AP-2.

So it's got like the black car in that picture

has like a special engine in it,

which to be fair, feels very much like.

We just, cheater car.

I'm an asshole.

So we just drove the Zero-1 like two days before

for this comparison.

We're driving all three of these

back to back on the same track.

And I'm like, I'm literally driving 50 miles an hour slower

in this same section of the track.

I thought I was in the Zero-1

40 miles an hour and I'm like.

20% of the horsepower, maybe?

If you combine all three of those cars together,

it still makes less power than the GTD made.

So it works.

Okay, so the Zero-1 dyno is 1,000

and the S2000 dyno is what, like 170?

210.

Yeah, so.

That's pretty good for the, that's not bad.

That's two liter engine.

Come on.

It's not bad.

Okay.

So we also have an M5 piece

coming out next Friday.

We set a lap time with Brit.

I think we're probably one of the first outlets

actually set a real lap time with an M5.

He sets it in the sedan, with a green sedan thing.

It's surprisingly quick, which doesn't surprise you

if you've driven the car, it's a rocket ship.

It is.

We have our problems with it

and I'm sure you do as well.

Yeah, we should reconnect about this.

There's nuances.

So what are your thoughts

without spoiling your article?

Do you love all things M5?

No.

I mean, you can't make a blanket statement like that

with any car that's current.

I think a lot of the-

That's so beautiful.

That's how you get the clicks.

No, I think a lot of the overall mass hatred

that came out immediately

upon the first wave of reviews

was largely to be controversial

because underneath, like as far as a car

that you can use every single day

for basically everything goes, it's pretty great.

You mean people who are never gonna buy one

have shit to say about it?

Yes, yes, I mean that.

I mean that.

I didn't track it.

My back road time with it was pretty limited.

But it was a good time when you put it

in rear wheel drive, you know?

I haven't loved an M5 since the E39

but I did very much enjoy the 60 with the V10.

I just didn't like the S20.

The last one was great.

I took a, we'll say, I didn't drive the last one.

Yeah, so.

I had a 2022 M5 comp for a week.

That was a fucking awesome car.

Yeah.

Statement is a blast.

Better than touring.

So yeah.

We should-

I like the purity.

Put this-

Yeah, but anyway.

Back up on the conversation.

We'll talk about that.

We'll come back.

Definitely come back next time.

We'll give you guys another bite at the apple.

You can tell us about your videos

because they're great.

You get to do the things that we all wish we could do.

So that's exciting.

Lose our minds slowly in real time

trying to put together projects.

Yeah, yeah.

People like watching that though.

That's good media, you know?

So okay, so I know we're on clock.

I have one closing question for you guys.

For both of you, one car,

you haven't driven yet that you would like to,

whether on camera or off.

Oscar Meyer, Wienermobile.

That is the-

Fuck, yeah.

That could happen.

The Wienermobile.

That's high on my list.

Are you-

Dan, do you know something that I don't know

that that could happen?

We were trying to do this a couple of years ago

and then the girl that set everything up

got fired or something.

That's true.

We were supposed to do a video on the Wienermobile

and she's like, oh, she's no longer with us.

So we lost out.

Yeah.

You could probably do a comparison test

because like LL Bean has a boot.

That's like a truck like that too.

They're all F-250s or something anyway.

So it's like-

I don't want to know.

I just want to experience the magic

of driving on a giant hot dog.

The idea was to have the planners,

Peanut Truck versus the Wienermobile.

That was like the Joe comparison.

Right?

So which is better?

I don't have the energy to chase such a prestigious.

That's my only dream car.

Nuts versus Wieners.

That's my dream.

Track test.

That's good.

Yeah.

What about you, Martin?

I think there's just,

if I had to put one above the other

and it's basically a similar philosophy as the T-50.

The Wienermobile and the T-50 are about the same.

That's such a douche answer

because it's like so stereotype of like some car person.

Yeah, it's not about the price.

It's just, I want to see if they were able

to replicate like an old car experience in a new car.

You know, that's really my main interest.

I mean, as a serious side,

probably that or like a T-33

because I think we're getting them,

that would be, not work, the US is getting them.

I think that would be a very, very cool experience.

My sort of grail car, I would love to do,

because we do these long form deep dives on the 4GT.

Like I actually get to experience the 0405 on track,

get to experience the second gen of it

and sort of see where they took it in their final.

Didn't the Rattle House do that with the two?

I don't actually know.

I know they did a Z06 and 4GT

and then they did the original 4GT.

That car was like on original tires

and they drove it in the wet or the cold.

Like I'd actually want to talk to the people

responsible for it.

A friend of mine bumped into one of the lead engineers

at the tail of the dragon and the 4GT club.

I'm going to screw up the story a bit,

but this guy bought the car when they weren't worth a lot

even though he worked on it.

He saved, he saved, he saved.

This one, the cars are back to like a hundred thousand.

They were like 150.

Sticker, right?

They're about, and you could buy one for 120

if you just walked in.

It was, I think he paid like under a hundred for it,

but he worked on the car.

So the guy, the guy who sold him the car

gave him a sweetheart deal

because he was largely responsible for it.

And I think this guy now is like 60 or 70,000 miles

on his 4GT.

He drives it.

That's good for him, man.

He drives it.

That's what they're for.

I'm talking to somebody like that

who worked on the car.

I think would be cool.

I mean, there's the douche factor

of like the Texas 2K associated with it,

but like a bunch of people that never worked

on a supercar before at Ford came together

to build something.

I would love to drive that flat out on a racetrack.

But other than that, I mean, a couple of the crazy

million dollar cars and the Wiener Mobile.

That's sort of where I'm at.

That's a good answer.

Make the Wiener Mobile happy.

It's up to you guys.

You guys can organize all of this.

We will make you a master Wiener nut.

Wiener on the line, Ron.

Let's go.

Come on.

Absolutely.

You let us know, talk to your sponsors.

And if they're looking to sponsor somebody else,

we're here.

And I'll put together a proposal for the Wiener Mobile

versus the Planners Peanut's car.

And we could do it at Lime Rock

because I think they would be absolutely terrible

at that track.

Why don't we meet in the middle?

We can meet in the middle in like a Walmart parking lot.

Okay.

All right.

Autocross and Pittsburgh.

Yeah.

Nothing says Wiener Mobile like an Autocross and Pittsburgh.

Pittsburgh's real hilly.

It might be a good time.

Case in point.

Yeah.

So, all right.

Well, again, I know we're on the clock, guys.

So, Mark Jack.

I appreciate it, gentlemen.

Thank you for everything.

And we'll talk to you guys probably if you'll have us

back sometime in the near future.

Yeah.

Thank you for your patience, too, with us rambling.

I know sometimes we get on a roll

and I don't want to make it seem like we're trying

to cut you off.

I just think we get in our heads.

So I apologize if we just went on too long.

We're all nervous.

We're all in the same thing together, you know?

The deeper we can go on this stuff, the better.

So thank you again for your time.

And for whatever logistical nonsense

is happening on both sides.

And yeah, you're welcome back whenever you want.

Take care.

Appreciate it, guys.

Thanks.

Good talking to you.

With Savagegeese - Corvette ZR1, Mustang GTD, 911 GT3RS Comparison

Nissan Murano

Chevrolet Corvette

Ford Mustang GTD

Porsche 911

Corvette C7 Z06

Honda S2000

Golf Gtds

Nissan Gtr

Lexus LFA

F-150 Raptor

BMW M5

BMW E39

Gordon T50

About this episode

Original notes