221 - Neverending Quest of Learning New Stuff (Evan McLaren)

Hi, I'm Scott. And I'm Seth. And I'm Evan McLaren. And we are track walking. Killer

timing Evan. I think that's the first time we've had a guest like be on it. He's just

the show's gonna be so good. Oh, man, don't hype me up too much shit.

All right, world's worst intro. So tonight we've got Evan McLaren, who goes by a very

inappropriate nickname in the grid life paddock, drives an old Integra that's been

heavily modified by this point. Two time back to back club TR champion. And all around good guy.

I'll say your name again, Evan McLaren. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thanks for the intro. I don't necessarily go by the nickname unless somebody

else wants to refer to me as that. Yeah, it's it's you've I think you've done a good job of trying

to shrug it off a little bit. It's yeah, it's it's more of like just a I guess an inside joke

at this point, but I don't know. It doesn't really it's not very fitting if in my opinion,

but it's funny. Why don't you why don't you give give the story of that the origins and all I'll

fill in any gaps I need to. Okay, so that was mid Ohio last year. And 20 was it 24?

Yes. Yeah, I'm like, what year is it right now? Yeah, 24.

That was when James, you know, the the one and only James Houghton was basically running a full

season campaign in Club TR with us. And he was basically like mopping the floor with everybody

for the first couple of events. And then I think he came out in the first session in like three

laps and like reset the the class record by like, I forget what it was, it was a big margin like

over a second. And yeah, he was just kind of like, you know, just pack it up and leave like,

you know, no, he's going to get faster than that. And then I think it was the the evening

session of that Saturday, I managed to leapfrog him by, I don't know, like a 10th or something

like that. Like, I guess he had, he had gone out run a lap that he thought was, you know,

pretty solid reset, you know, his own lap that he had run previously and then came in.

And then I guess saw that I had gone a little bit faster than him and went back out and ran

like another like to put more fuel in the car because he had the fuel like the fuel load so

light that he couldn't only do like three laps or something like that. So we went back out again

and tried to pound another, I don't know, three or four laps, and he just still couldn't pull it off.

And I wound up beating him in that session by like, maybe a 10th, it wasn't very much 10th or two.

But then he, you know, after that session, he like walks up to the paddock spot and like

the, you know, like his attitude and just how like positive and encouraging he was and everything

like he was just so hyped that, you know, like, I don't know, like he wasn't mad that I beat him.

He was like, just he was like, dude, I'm proud of you. Like that's sick. And then like we watched

the lap and he was kind of like joking about how pushy the car was. And then he's just like,

you did that lap with the car like that pushy, like he's like, you're just, he's like, you're a bad

man. Like kept saying it. And then like, that's just kind of where it stuck. Like he ended up like,

you know, like, walking away from that conversation, he just kept saying like,

you know, I'm a clearance and bad mother effort. I'm a clearance and bad mother effort. So then I

just, so I don't know where, you know, somebody, somebody said it on like social media after

that, it just kind of like has become the joke. And it's just because of how and then like we went

out the next morning and battled it out for two sessions. And I wound up coming ahead by like

another very, very small margin. So it was like kind of one of those like, I don't know, career

highlights for me and, you know, time attack that, you know, it's just like a big moment where,

you know, I went up against like an idol of mine, you know what I mean? Somebody who's like,

you know, highly revered and respected and somebody that I looked up to for years and,

you know, be able to battle against him and then come out on top and then get the,

you know, encouragement and respect from him for that was like pretty awesome moment for me.

So it's just kind of funny that the nickname stuck, but like I said, I don't, I don't necessarily

feel that it, you know, describes me very well. I don't ever feel like I'm, you know, this is like

you know, badass axe murder or something like that, you know what I mean? But it was just

funny to hear that come from him. And then the kind of just like stick around and

still like a year later, people throw that out there. Like it's funny.

So that weekend, without getting on my soapbox about it, that weekend, you know,

James went out there early session, reset the record by a margin.

Yeah. I mean, at that point, a lot of time attackers and a lot of drivers, just in general,

those would have been the best conditions. Maybe, maybe I can close it up a little bit,

but what was, what was your thought process after you saw the time that he did early in that weekend?

Oh, I, I didn't think that there was any chance that like any of us in the class are even going

to come close to it because I guess like the, you know, the previous record, I had never been

close to that the year before, I think the year before that was like a podium sprint weekend.

And I was never, I was never like one of the, the top three in lap times. I don't think I

went up to the podium that weekend because of the podium sprint, but as far as like raw

lap time goes, I was always like, you know, a little bit behind. And then, you know, I didn't,

like the first couple of sessions of that weekend last year, I was still struggling to try and get

up to my pace from the previous year. And so I was just like, man, I'm like having a hard time

just like getting up to my own pace. And I don't know where, you know, where I'm going to find

the rest of that time, you know? So I thought it was just unattainable. And then

it wasn't until one of the later sessions, I think I was chasing Pete around actually and

came away with like my best lap time so far the weekend. And I'd kind of,

you know, leapfrogged my like PB from the year before by a good margin. And then I knew I had

made a pretty big mistake and turn one. So I was like, well, there's a little bit more time there

just in the one, you know, one corner. So if I can like put it all together, I might be able to get

within the same like, you know, one second range is halting, but I wasn't like, there's no way I'm

going to run a lap time that's faster than what he already did. And then like, so when I when I

actually like ran the lap time, you know, the next day, you know, put put it together like well

enough that, you know, it all came together and the del deltoid from what I had ran. So like,

you know, previously to that lap time that I just did was like, you know, way more than I thought

was in the car or like in myself with a driver. I knew the car obviously had a ton of pace in it,

but you know, trying to trying to extract that as a driver myself, you know, I was I was still kind

of, I guess, learning trying to get my legs underneath me. And I didn't I didn't realize

quite, you know, how much pace was still there in it, you know, so that was a

how does it feel to beat someone like James Allen when he's having a good day?

Because it's not like he was he was crappy and the car sucked and yada, I like car was good. He

shows up prepped. The car is good. He's driving well, but you beat him like you beat him.

It's it felt awesome, like not going to lie. I have this like, like, you know,

innate tendency to kind of like, I guess, you know, downplay myself or, you know,

stuff like that. It's like, you know, I'm like, Oh, well, yeah, I beat him. But, you know, maybe

my car is just like that much faster than his or something like that. You know what I mean? Like,

I chalk it up to some other kind of, you know, factors and not almost like take the credit

away for myself as a driver. I mean, I do, I'm never going to like admit or claim that like,

I'm on the same level as a driver is like how it means, you know what I mean? So there's got to

be some kind of other like factors at play that, you know, gave me enough of an advantage, whether

it's, you know, like, whether my car straight line pace or, you know, something that like gave me

some kind of an upper hand there that I was able to beat him. But still it did, you know, it did

feel amazing. But like I said, I'm always just like, I'm still kind of in disbelief. And I have

a hard time like, I guess giving myself the credit for it, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I want to ask the direct question, but I'm going to save it until we get to know you a

little bit better. So I'll take the Seth roll here. If we kind of turn the, turn the wheel of time

back a bit, where, what was your on ramp to cars and motorsport and all of this nonsense?

Well, I guess it started way back. I want to, I would give credit to like probably video games

and like the early Gran Turismo games. As far as like my interest in like racing and motorsports,

like I grew up with a father who was very like mechanically inclined jack of all trades type

of guy, you know, like real smart taught me like forced me to work on like family cars and stuff

with him a lot as a child. And I like, I actually absolutely hated like wrenching and any sort of

mechanical work. Because like, you know, we didn't, we weren't the type of family to like just go on

buying new cars, like you would just buy like some, you know, two piece of junk, and then we would

just be constantly trying to keep it on the road. But when it came to like maintenance and stuff,

like he would, you know, have you do break jobs and stuff like that, you know, I mean, so

you know, I was exposed to like mechanical things early and, you know, my childhood and I,

like I said, I hated it. And then it wasn't until like later on in life that, you know, like

through video games and movies and magazines and stuff that I got interested in,

like, you know, the performance and aesthetic of cars. And that was probably like,

like late middle school, early high school age, I guess, kind of around the time, like people

started driving and stuff. I also didn't get my driver's license until like a little bit later

than everybody else, because I just didn't have the money to like buy a car and all this stuff. But

I was, you know, I loved, like I said, the early Gran Turismo games and stuff like that. And I

was kind of like, what I learned about, I guess, like, like what cars were cool and like, you

know, performance, like, you know, what cars were good for like racing and performance stuff versus

like, you know, the ones that were just kind of like, you know, basic commuter cars. But then

you see all like the early 2000s, like, you know, like Riser age, where people were like,

you know, souping up civics and stuff like that. And like the older Subaru WRX, I was like, I had

like a real like fascination with like early like 90s, like Subaru's and Evo's and stuff.

So I feel like I kind of dodged the bullet there because I wound up with Hondas and not a Subaru.

But for a while, I was really like, you're really enamored with like the

like the GC chassis Subaru is like, what like do we have, you know what I mean,

like just that body shape. And then I guess like how it, how it performed in like Gran Turismo,

stuff like that. It was like a car that I like driving in that game. So kind of like, you know,

I was really enthusiastic about it. And then all the, I guess it was like speed vision, speed channel,

like watching WRC stuff, like real, like at 2am, like the stuff that they would show on there was

just like crazy to me. And I never watched like a lot of like pro racing or anything like that

growing up. It was just like little bits and pieces that I could catch, you know, on, you know,

cable and stuff like that when I was a kid. So.

Yeah. So it's a whole world that, you know, had speed vision never existed or had these magazines

just not been around. I don't know how many thousands, if not millions of us just wouldn't

have been exposed to these worlds that we wouldn't have known existed.

Yeah, seriously, because like I said, I didn't know anything about it, you know,

but I was just like a kid watching this stuff for, you know, like high school age,

like watching this stuff late night cable. And I was like, oh, this is crazy,

but I didn't have any idea that it would be possible to like get out on a racetrack and do

any of it myself, you know, and it took me a long, you know, obviously a long time to get there from,

you know, obviously I'm well beyond high school age now and I haven't been driving on track all

that long. So it took me a while to kind of find my way to the racetrack and meet friends that

were, you know, like actively tracking their cars and have them kind of hold my hand and say,

here, like, go do this, sign up for this, like track night and get out there and do it. And like,

so there's a lot, you know, obviously a lot of a span in between, you know, just being interested

in cars and then going through the whole, like getting into like Honda specifically and then

learning how to, you know, modify and build them and then kind of just building a car

as like a fun street car and then not really having much of an intention to take it to the track and

then eventually realizing how it wasn't that difficult to get to the track and then finally

making it there. And that was, you know, that was probably like a 10 year span right there.

Yeah. So as, as we're looking in early high school, when you kind of really got the bug,

what kind of time span, what years were we talking about 2000? What?

I graduated in 2002. So, you know, it was very early, like 2000s, like fast nefarious area,

era. So, yeah, that was kind of the peak of, of that, that culture.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd like, you know, I would take like Super Street magazines to

class with me and read through those while I'm supposed to be like, you know, listening to my

physics teachers. So it's just, but

And then, so as you, as you went through high school,

what's your, your first actual track experience? Did you do any autocross before or

how did you find your way to the track? I still have never done an autocross. I like, I really

want to kind of like dip my toes in that one of these days. Now that I feel like I'm actually

comfortable enough in a car and like kind of humble myself and like get lost in cones because I

watched video of, you know, autocross courses and people were like really good. And I just,

I get lost like visually in a sea of cones. So I feel like it's something that like if,

you know, if I could go try and maybe, you know, get somewhat proficient at it, it would help me,

you know, be a better driver on track. But I've never, I was never really like drawn to that.

It was always just like, you know, just, you know, road course. It was the only thing that

really like excited me. I will also real quick, I'll echo your autocross videos.

Make no sense to me. I have a hard time visualizing where they're going, what's happening or

anything in person. If they're properly done, it makes a lot more sense.

Yeah. That's always kind of what I've assumed. And like, I've had plenty of people are just

like, I would just go do one and it'll make sense. And you'll figure it out. Like if you walk the

course a couple of times, like you'll, you'll see it. Like I had a long conversation with Hito

this year and he was just like, he's like, you're just scared. He's like, you're just scared of

sucking. And I'm like, um, yeah, probably, there's probably a little bit to that. But like, um,

well, I mean, and as long as, you know, whoever you're doing it with allows, like take a bike

or take a scooter and then you can go around that course three, four times by the time everyone

else gets one or two times through. Yeah. It's, it's better. It's actually a good way to learn to

walk tracks because there's so much smaller. You can really get a good feel for walking the line.

Yeah. In a way that you don't, it's, it's harder to walk a full size racetrack and really

visualize it at speed. It's easier to visualize an autocross course at speed when you walk it. I

think I've walked, I autocrossed, I don't want to say seriously because I was not good enough to be

autocrossing seriously, but I autocrossed a lot and, um, walked a lot of courses and it helps you

visualize things a lot better. So I encourage you to do it, but, uh, partly that's because I

want to get you back on the show and talk to you about how bad it is the first couple of times you

do it. So yeah, yeah, I, I can definitely, that makes a lot of sense. I can definitely see that.

And like I said, it's definitely something I want to try, but I still have yet to get out there.

What was it? How do you, I think it was 2020. I was the first time I actually made it to a

racetrack. So there's a, like I said, there's a long time between, you know, like high school

age and when I finally made it out there. What was your first car and then how did that transform

into cars that sucked less than that? Oh man. My first car was the, probably the reason why I

wound up in Honda's was because of the complete lack of reliability of the piece of junk that I

got stuck with as my first car. Um, was a, I forget what year it was. Like I'm going to say

early nineties, maybe it was a four tempo and it, yeah, it belonged to a friend who had,

I think, crashed it once or twice. Um, and it was like, I don't know, 400 bucks, you know what I

mean? It's something I could pick up with cash pretty quick. And then I ended up putting more

money into that just to make it like road worthy. And then, um, like I replaced everything on this

car, like struts all around, like, you know, wheel bearings, like brakes, everything.

Well, your dad, um, your experience with your dad and your family prepared you for this.

Yeah, literally, it was just like the cycle repeating itself of buying a junk car and then

being forced to, you know, do everything I like know how to, because, you know, my mechanical

knowledge really wasn't like anywhere near what is now back then, but it was like, I can do brakes,

I can replace, you know, wheel hubs and stuff like that. Um, and luckily at the time, my dad was

working at a, um, like a shop at a golf course doing maintenance and all of their like equipment

and stuff like that. So I had a lift and all this stuff to kind of like help me, which was nice,

but it was still like a lot of work and I spent like a lot of money on parts. And, uh, that car,

it had like variable front caster, like it was just like dynamic caster. So the thing,

yeah, it had been crashed and like there was something bent and loose underneath and I

never quite figured out what was wrong with it, but even when you would tow it up straight,

it would like be all over the road. And, uh, I drove it like that for a year, maybe.

I forget, but yeah, I didn't have it for very long. It ended up like lighting on fire, like the

something in the engine bay was leaking oil and it would leak onto the exhaust manifold and just

catch on fire. So, um, more than once? Yes. Now, like multiple times in one day, actually.

It was trying to tell you that it was ready to die. Yeah. It was, it was after that day that I was

just like, I told my parents was like, yo, I'm done with this car. Like I, I gotta find something

else. And they were, they were kind enough to let me borrow their like Jeep grand Cherokee for

a little while until I like found something else. And then I crashed that. Was it a late 90s grand

Cherokee? Um, I want to say it was like, yeah, either late 90s or early 2000s. Those were shitty

cars. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't very good, but it was another vehicle that like they picked up

for cheap. I think it was like a, like a lease buyback or something like that, that my dad had

picked up for cheap and it wasn't, it was decent when it was new, but it had like fairly low miles

on it when he picked it up. But then, um, you know, family put a lot of miles on it. I borrowed it

for a while and then crashed it. And it was like never the same after that. But they give, you

know, they give me a car that, um, for whatever reason, I guess something with, I don't know if

it was something that it didn't run right when it was in four wheel drive. So it was just like

always in rear wheel drive. And my dad would like kept telling me, like, don't put it in

four wheel drive, just leave it in a little drive. It'd be fine. And of course the rear tires were

like practically bald. So, uh, um, I ended up getting the things sideways, like down in the rain,

down, uh, like a downhill corner. It was kind of like a, you know, 40, 35, 40 mile per hour

speed zone. And I was probably going like 60 in the wet with bald rear tires going downhill. So

like, yeah, the rear end tried to, you know, swap ends on me and, um, and the sideways for a while.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Um, like as soon as I felt the thing kind of like

shimmy, I definitely lifted off the throttle and then it's the really started to come around. I

fully like counter steered, like complete opposite lock and it was just going like sideways for what

felt like the longest time, but I'm on the brake pedal, like, you know, fully locked and locked in

the brake. So it ended up sliding into a, like a concrete curb at the entrance to this like

neighborhood basically wound up in somebody's front lawn. I don't know how the thing didn't

flip. It just like completely snapped the whole like rear end on the thing and like shattered

the brake rotor. And I was like half up on the grass, half still in the asphalt backwards.

And that was at like midnight or something like that. So I had to call my dad and be like,

Hey, I just crashed your car. He was, he was pretty pissed. Um, but yeah, he came and picked me up.

And then like we luckily, I wasn't too far from like the shop he worked at. So he kind of like,

he yanked like the shards of the shattered brake rotor out of the wheel so that the

rear wheel could rotate. And then we like drove it real slow, like back to

the shop where it worked and just kind of left it there. And then insurance took care of it and

repaired it. They didn't total it out somehow. So, um, but then in that, in that time, I ended up

finding a, uh, like a 2000 Civic Hatchback. So that's why that was the first Honda.

And that was all because some friends had had Hondas and they all had like, you know,

a bunch of miles on them and they, you know, they loved them because of the reliability. And

there was one of, you know, one of my friends did the whole like, you know, fast,

the furious body kit crap on his like a cord back in that time. And I was like, all right, cool.

Like I thought Hondas were kind of lame as far as like performance like vehicles,

like, you know, they weren't like turbocharged or all will drive and like all that stuff from

like a little, you know, slow, low powered front wheel drive cars. But then like I got this thing

and I'm like, this thing feels like driving a go-kart. Like it's so small and light and like

obviously doesn't, it can't get out of its own way. But it, I had it till I don't know 300,000

miles on the thing. I bought it when it had maybe like 80,000 and I put over, over 200,000 miles

on the car myself. And the only thing I've ever had to do was like, you know, brake pads, tires,

spark plugs. And it was reliable. Yeah, it was, it was amazing. So that was, you know,

I had that car for years. And then after that one, I eventually sold it to a friend who then

like flipped it, you know, fixed a few things on it and flipped it and then picked up another Civic.

And then that car died and then picked up an Integra. And that's kind of where I got started

with the Integra, which was not the car that I have now, but it was the one immediately before

the one I have now. It was kind of like the, the first version that I also crashed. Like it was,

you know, I bought it, rebuilt the engine, did like, you know, coil overs, exhaust, all that

stuff on it daily, drove it for a while. And then ended up case swapping it and then took the

native Integra engine out, put it into my other Civic that I had also picked up. So I had a Civic

and an Integra at the time. So I had both of them engine swapped and then I ended up crashing the

Integra on the street. Not long after I case swapped it. You've got a common theme here with

how cars end in your care. Right. Is it, is, is that stuff?

Those are the only two. Those are the only two that have crashed.

Okay. Okay. That's fair.

So when, so I, I totally get the, the history of, you know, the WRX or the STI versus EVO,

whole thing. I mean, the performance of those cars out of the box and at the time was phenomenal

for the money. And Honda always seemed like the little cousin from out of town sort of thing.

Yeah. Right. But yeah, but way more reliable. And so in that time, like,

since you didn't have to fix anything, like to keep it on the road and stuff like that,

did that like free up time and mental space to be able to like try to go faster in these things?

So the funny thing is that that first Honda that I had, like I, I did like almost nothing to that

car to modify it, like performance wise, you know what I mean? I was strictly like a daily

driver beater. And at the time I had like an unhealthy obsession with skateboarding. So

it was kind of like, like that was my like obsession and focus and, you know, my,

you know, kind of like how, you know, driving on track now is for me like skateboarding was back

then. Whereas like my interest in like cars and driving and stuff was took like, you know,

like a second, like a backseat, you know, so I didn't really have the money to even like

throw a ton of money at a car to like build it up. It wasn't until, you know, like a few years

later that I, it wasn't until I got the first Integra that I really started to do things to

that. And it was like, that was kind of like the whole, I guess, like forums and everything that

I had kind of started digging through and seeing what other people had done and kind of, you know,

and like really early like Instagram and stuff like that, that kind of, you know,

inspired me to start building that. And it wasn't even necessarily like to the goal of

like actually getting to the racetrack because I still had no idea that that was like a possibility.

It was more just like, let me just make this car that I think is cool when it's like more fun to

drive on the street and like hoon around on back roads and stuff like that. Okay. How was your,

how was your skateboarding going at the time you were switching cars? I want to know what the

process from one obsession to another obsession, how that went?

It was kind of weird because there was definitely like a time period where they kind of like

blended together and were happening at the same time. A lot of the like the first two civics I

had was just like, like I said, daily driver, but then I would also throw like, you know,

five dudes in and we would go like drive around the city to look for like stuff to skate or take

trips to like, you know, Philly or DC or something like that, you know. And so a lot of it was more

like that was more just, hey, this car is great on gas and I can fit a bunch of people in it and

throw like, you know, five skateboards in the trunk and just go, you know, drive around on these

like skateboard missions, right? And then it was kind of, I don't know when the shift really

started to happen, but I don't know if I just started to get burnout on skateboarding or,

you know, something sparked me more towards like driving, like once I, I guess kind of once I like

got acquainted with other friends, mostly like online and stuff that were into like driving on

track. And there was a couple of guys that I had met through skateboarding, like local guys that

had, you know, been doing like HPD and stuff like that. So they kind of started to explain to me like

how like how to go about like getting on a racetrack. And I was like, man, if I can actually do this,

we're like, well, you know, let's, what do I got to do in my car? And then I spent like a year

like just doing like simple basic maintenance and like probably spending too much time

trying to build the car up to be like track capable instead of just like getting out there and

driving what I had, you know, so I, I spent a lot more time almost like preparing to get to

a racetrack than I should have. And like also like maybe like mentally like trying to learn

like, you know, what it was to really like drive or understand, you know, what, like not just

trying to drive fast, but like what I should be doing out there, you know what I mean? Like how

to how to use the brake pedal and stuff like that. And I had, you know, friends trying to like

explain things to me. And I was trying to just like, you know,

like search and scour for like knowledge, understanding before I felt comfortable like

kind of throwing myself out there and doing it. So I spent way too much time like mentally

preparing myself before actually like finally just kind of jumped both feet in and doing it.

And such a common story too. Yeah. Like how many months or years some people waited or,

you know, I can't, you know, I'm not going to go to the track until my car is ready sort of thing.

So what, what were the things at the time that you thought you needed to do before you got to the

track? And so I had at the time I had like two cars, like I was saying, I had the one Civic

and I had the first Integra and I had kind of built the Integra up to a point where it was like,

it was pretty much ready to go. Like there wasn't anything on that car that would have

held me back and I, but I didn't want to take that car. I felt like it was like it had already

been case-well up. I felt like it was too much. I had a lot of people like tell me that, you know,

the whole concept of like kind of starting with a slower car or starting with something more simple

and then work your way up to it. So I was like, well, I have this other Civic that's slower.

It's a little bit more like simple, but it was like also more of a daily driver and it kind of

year just like daily driving it, but then like fixing issues and the kind of using that as like

my excuse to not get out on the track. They're like, all right, I don't want to take the Integra.

I want to take this other car. But then it's got all this like stuff that needs to be addressed.

And it was mostly just maintenance stuff. It was like, oh, I need, you know, these brake pads,

I need to replace all the hubs. Like I need to make sure the brake lines aren't rotted out. So I

got to like replace all those. And there was just like all this stuff that I kept like coming up with

basically excuses to like not get out there. And then it eventually got to a point where I was like,

okay, I ended up saying, okay, this car needs XYZ and it's this dollar amount. And then the Integra

is sitting here in the garage and it doesn't really need anything. So I ended up just kind of coming

to the resolution of like, I'm just going to take the Integra and go sign up for like a track night.

And that's like, that was the first time I actually made it on track was when I finally just stopped

like, you know, making excuses not to take the car that was fully capable of doing it, you know.

Do you know what you were afraid of? Because you were clearly afraid of something.

Do you know what it was? I don't really know. Like if I can

like pinpoint like one thing, I just know like I didn't have like a truck and trailer at the time.

So I was kind of like, this car has to get to the track, not break, get home,

and then get me to work like the next day, you know what I mean? So I think that was

part of the hesitation. But then also like,

I don't know, is maybe it's kind of like a fear of just like, not being good at it, like kind of like

fantasizing about doing it for so long and then going out and being like, yeah, I really suck at

this. But then also, I had that I didn't have any like, you know, delusions of grandeur, like I was

just going to go out my first day and like just be, you know, like a pro level driver or anything.

It's just, I don't know, just weird. I think it's mostly just like the fear of like breaking or

crashing the car. Did you, did you know of other people through the forums and friends and stuff

like that who have, who did have issues at the time on track? Yeah, I mean,

and so there was a local kid that he tracked like,

I think it was like a, like a turbocharged rabbit, like a VW rabbit, and he always had like

reliability issues and stuff like that. Yeah, he did. But yeah, that's just a given rate.

He ended up getting, he ended up getting like an older rabbit and I'm getting like SCCA,

like road racing, I forget what it's like IT class he was in, but

he was one of the first ones like locally that kind of pushed me into that. And then it was,

I had been like acquainted like friends with like online with like Grant Davidson and Evan

Weider for like several years at this point. And those two were like, you know, a pretty big

motivator that kept pushing me like, you're like, why don't you go out? Like you're obviously like

super interested in this, like you're, you should be capable of like perfectly fine, like just get

out there and do it. You know what I mean? Grant especially, he was just like, we're not going to

be friends anymore if you just don't get out there and do it. And I was like, eventually I was just

like, all right, you know, just finally stopped being lame, you know, and just went for it. And

you know, it was obviously I had the time of my life, like it was a blast. And then after that first

day, I was like, why, like, why have I been like putting this off for so long? Like, what have I

been doing? What was the first track you went to?

NGMP Thunderbolt. That's the one you guys came to a few years ago. That's a big one.

Yeah, Ray is like a big fast track. Obviously, I was like, you know, painfully slow, like, you know,

but you know, it is a, it is a very fast kind of, there's some spots that are kind of high risk

too. But I was, you know, obviously just driving so far under the limit of a car that there was

zero risk involved. Driving at your mental limit, though, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I thought I was like, you know, hot shit, but you know,

obviously knew that I was like 10 seconds off pace, like what the car should be capable of

doing if we're more even. Yeah. Yeah. If you're within 10 seconds, it's a pretty good first outing.

What, what was it about the experience that just kind of hooked you? Is it the speed sounds? Like,

what was it? It was, I don't know. Like I, I had always been. No concrete curbing to hit?

Yeah, exactly. There are no trees off the side of the road or ditches to put your car into. Like,

yeah, I know. It's like I said, I played video games for so long and then I'd like, you know,

gone out like I'm, you know, we have a lot of like twisty back roads around here, but you can't

really like push the car into any sort of like slip angle or anything or without risking like

killing yourself or somebody else. So it was like that it was such like a, I don't know,

like liberating feeling to be able to actually drive in like, you know, a controlled environment,

push the, you know, the tires to a point where, you know, they start to slip. In my case,

it was mostly like on throttle push on the exit of a corner and I'm like, oh, this is crazy.

But then like, yeah, feeling the speed, feeling like the G forces and the grip of the tires and

it's something like, you know, I just hadn't ever like experienced that those kind of like,

you know, full like sensations that you get, you know, even like hooning around on the street,

it was just like, even at, you know, that slow pace with, you know, like my lack of

ability at the time, it was still like to me so much crazier than anything I had done

up to that point, you know, because like I didn't do autocross. I didn't, you know, I was just

being dumb on the street and there's like no comparison, you know, and it was just, it was

like so eye-opening. So I was like, you know, I was hooked. Like, even just the feeling of like

driving over like apex curbing, I was like, this is sick. This is like a real life video game,

but like, you feel all that like G forces and stuff. And like, this is, this is crazy. Yeah.

Like passing other like, you know, novice DE drivers and like, this is so hyped. I'm like,

I'm passing that guy and I'm like waving like, hoping this guy's having a great time because

I was just hyped as hell. And like, it's like, there was just, it was so cool. And yeah, I've

been hooked ever since, you know. And if we could bottle that sensation, you know, have that be

the energy drink that everybody gets on, it'd be a good product. Yeah. It's like the lack of like,

like pressure and seriousness that, you know, kind of comes like later on with like competition

and all that stuff, you know, it's just like people forget about it. I think that how much

pure sensation. Yeah. So after that first experience, which was in your Integra, right?

Were you like all in from that point? Or did you have to like try to figure out a plan and

like how to keep doing that? Well, so yeah, at first I was like, okay, there's,

there's like literally nothing else I want to spend my money on at this point, you know,

like I, I had, I wasn't really like skateboarding a whole lot at all anymore either. It was kind of

like, like the friends group that I had, like we were all kind of like getting a little bit older,

like my, my knees and my ankles are starting to feel it. So I was just like, it was like,

wasn't as enjoyable for me personally as it had been when I was younger. And then some of my,

you know, good friends with 2020, right? Yeah, 2020. So I was already like,

like mid 30s at that point. So I was like, yeah, I had a good run with that. Like I,

it's been a while since I've even been on a skateboard, like now, but, you know, I still

have the desire to get out there and roll around sometimes. But like I said, like,

I can't, I can't do it to the capacity that I used to. And that was kind of like bumming me out.

And then like I said, some of my friends that like, you know, I had, you know, I've been skating with

for like years, we, you know, we kind of like grew up together. They go kind of like, you know,

fizzle out and like go on our separate ways, like we're all friends, but like none of it's really

like skate as much as we used to. So a couple of us still do, but like to a much less extent.

So I, you know, I was kind of looking maybe subconsciously to like fill that void with

something else. So this was literally like the new like hyper fixation for me, you know? So

yeah. Yeah, it was just like, okay, like,

I think within that first summer, I think it was like May, I want to say it was May of 2020

that I did the first track night. And then in that same summer, I think I did three or four more.

But then it was only just like those SCCA track nights. I didn't make it to like

um, grid life until the next year was 2021. I did like a track night. The next season,

I immediately bought like a truck and trailer. Like this was like early spring 2021 that I went

out and was just like, are you like, I need a tow vehicle because I wanted to go like

everywhere. You know, I was like, I want to, I want to go to mid Ohio. Like that was like the

big goal in my head was like, for whatever reason, like, um, it's probably because of Grant. I think

Grant was like, middle high was like his favorite track and he was just like, this place is awesome.

And it's like, it was at the time, the only grid life event that was kind of like

within reach for me. So I was like, cool, I'll go out to middle high and meet these guys. And I'll

see what that's all about. Cause you know, I'd only seen like gears and gasoline videos and

stuff like that, like to see what grid life was. So I was like, that looks cool. Like I kind of want

to go, you know, see what that's all about. I went, did a DE event with NASA, like my northeast

local NASA region, met some people there and that was pretty cool. Um,

Was the real quick, was the truck and trailer a like a reliability thing in the back of your mind?

Like you wanted to be sure that you had a way home? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I, I,

like I just didn't want to be, you know, like,

well, NGMP is like two hours from my house. So it's not like the end of the world or something

breaks. I can still probably figure out how to get home and like whatever, but still it's just,

you know, kind of took the weight off my shoulders of worrying about like getting to the

track and getting home. And if the car does break, I can just winch it onto the trailer,

throw it in the garage and figure it out later, you know, and not have to be like, all right,

back in my mind the whole time that I'm there that, you know, like what if I like blow a CV

axle or something, you know, it's like, um, but then also like I said, I wanted to go to like

mid Ohio and stuff. And I didn't feel completely comfortable driving like seven hours, eight hours

that, you know, out to mid Ohio to with the car and then tracking it all weekend and then making

it back home. So, um, I knew that, you know, if I was going to like do this with any sort of like

frequency, I was going to run into some kind of like mechanical failure or something like that.

I just wanted to just not even have to stress about it, you know, for the first couple of years,

I didn't really have any like major mechanical failures that would have kept me from like

getting home, but it was still just kind of nice to be able to, you know, trailer the car back and

forth and not stress about it. Yeah, but with Scott living life, he lives like, I'm pretty sure he

has a feeling where it's nice if nothing else to get to the end of a track weekend and not

have to drive your, your track car home, just like get in a loud uncomfortable track car and drive

hours and hours home. It's pick up trucks start to feel awful nice at the end of a weekend.

I was having flashbacks from driving the Miata. Yeah, you're an animal for doing that for

so long. No, just broke. I mean, the, you know, the amount of money you've got to shell out up

front for a truck and trailer, you know, everybody can kind of preach resale value and I get,

but you have to have that money to spend it up front. Yeah.

So why, why grid life? Like what? Yeah, I was curious about that. Was it like all the hype

videos and stuff? And yeah, I mean, that's, I was never like, Oh, this is what I want to be

involved in. This is where I want to spend the majority of my time. I was looking more like

my local NASA region is kind of like what I want to, like what I was expecting to kind of spend

most of my time at. Time trial stuff. I just wanted to get through DE because like, you know,

their ladder program works, you know, like you have to kind of like have all this check rides

and work your way up. And at the point, like when I did the first event with NASA, I had had a,

you know, a handful of like track nights under my belt. So I felt a little more comfortable

just being around on track and like, you know, with flags and awareness and stuff like that.

But obviously it wasn't like fast or anything, but that was the only time I've ever had like a

like an instructor in the right seat, because like they didn't, you know, they didn't know me

from a can of paint. So they were like, Oh, you're, you know, we're just going to put you in DE one

and throw in a structure in your right hand, in a right seat. So we went up for the first session

and like, he's like another, he raised his Honda challenge, like he was pretty cool dude. And,

you know, he gave me some pointers around Thunderbolt that, you know, I still kind of like

having them back in my mind to this day. But after the first session, he was just like, yeah,

you're fine by yourself. Like, we'll throw you in DE two and like you run out, you know, with like

the more like intermediate guys instead of being, you know, like in the novice group. So

that was kind of cool that like, you know, they like sign me off that quickly to just kind of

be on my own. But I even like, I was trying to ask him to like get back in the car and at least

like, I felt like I learned a good bit while he was in the car and like that one session.

So I was like, Oh, do you want to get back in my car and like, you know, for the next couple

sessions I do today? And like, he was like, cool with that. But then it's like the schedule, like

run group wise didn't really work out. So I ended up just kind of like, you know, driving the rest

of that weekend on my own. And then, you know, track nights are always like, just kind of,

you know, I don't want to say like a crapshoot, but you know, everybody's kind of, they're out

there on their own. There's no right seat. There's no, you know, it's really just like there's,

you know, in between session meetings where you don't really learn much besides like the basic

of the basics, unless you do something like seriously wrong, and they have to kind of like,

you know, give you a stern talking to, but it wasn't,

it wasn't until, yeah, like mid way through that season, it was like, like Grant and Evan Weeder

were kind of like, yeah, like come to mid Ohio and just like do DE with grid life and just kind

of see like what it's about. So I was like, because of like all those hype videos and like,

you know, Grant like hyping it up and I really like wanted to meet those dudes like in person,

after like, you know, being friends with them online, I was kind of like, yeah, I'll tell all

the way out there and like have fun for a weekend and just kind of experience something different.

And it was, it was like after going out there and like,

you know, meeting everybody and stuff, I was just like, like instantly kind of just

hooked in that like paddock and let the culture and everything, you know, it's like,

everybody was super friendly and like everybody was just there having like the time of their life

and there wasn't any like, I don't know, like weird like clickiness that I perceived or anything at

that point, that like, like, I don't know if I picked up on any of that when I was like at that

NASA D weekend either, you know what I mean, but like, I mostly like hung out with like the Hannah

Challenge guys and they were all super cool. But then like, I don't really know what it was about

you know, getting into the grid life paddock and like meeting everybody that kind of just like

pulled me back in. It was I think it was mostly when I finally went to a Midwest Fest, I think that

was probably what like, you know, that whole like crazy experience was probably what hooked me into

wanting to like go do more events with them. Yeah, it's pretty unique atmosphere, especially

just post COVID and 21 that would have been a that would have been a time.

Yeah, actually, so yeah, I think my recollection is a little bit backwards. I think it was 2020

when I did my first Midwest Fest, and then it was 2021 when I did Mid-Ohio. So I had that backwards.

That was like the rainy year was 2020, right? When it was like, there wasn't any like concert or

anything. It was just it like rained all weekend. Yes, I think you guys gltc like

raced had they had like a it was like a night race in the wet. Yeah, we did one of those.

Yeah, so that was that was the first like taste of grid life was that and then it was Mid-Ohio

after that when I went and actually drove because I drove out to I drove out the gingerman 20. It

was like the end of 2020. Like I drove the Integra out there, but I didn't drive on track. I just

went out to like spectate and hang out. And then that's when that's when I met like, you know,

most of the people that you know, I'm friends with now and like hung out stuff. I met like Eric

Streeter that weekend. You know, like Grant and Evan Weider and a bunch of other people and like

yeah, it was just like crazy. I was like, this was this is like a full blown like, you know,

like festival quote unquote, like they normally do. And I was like, well, if this is like a toned

down version, like I definitely want to like come back out and experience like the real one. So then

that the end of that season, 2021 was going to go back to Midwest Fest just to spectate again,

because I was like, I'm, you know, can't get a driver's ticket or anything like that to like

do DE or whatever. And then a time attack ticket popped up for sale like last minute,

it was like a week before and I was just like screw it. I'm buying it. It jumped from like

DE intermediate straight into time attack at Midwest Fest.

Another Taylor's hold his time, man. This guardrails were off of everything.

Yeah. So yeah, you know, somehow kind of like slipped my way in there and like Abe and Adam

didn't, you know, shut that down. So I wound up buying a ticket and, you know, I was just like,

I'm just trying to be on my best behavior and not like be a problem, you know. And it was like,

you know, first year club TR. At that point, I already knew like, you know, that's kind of what

I wanted to like get myself into because I like this class is like literally perfect for these

cars. And up until that point, there really wasn't a class where, you know, these, you know,

low displacement, yeah, like naturally aspirated cars, like this didn't fit anywhere, you know,

unless you wanted to go like crazy like howlin or like, you know, build a build a crazy built motor

for street class with like no arrow or something like that. Like there was possibilities, but it

just didn't seem like, you know, once we were like basic K swap, I've already got that done.

And then it was like, all the other stuff was just like, you know, I can do more stuff to optimize

the car, put arrow on it, whatever. But at the point, at that point, I was like, I don't care

if the car is nowhere near optimized for the class. Like I already saw, you know, like what Ben

Thorne and, you know, Grant Davidson and all those dudes were like doing at that, you know, first

year of the class. And I was like, I'm nowhere near capable of, you know, even building a car to

that point, you know, with, you know, kind of what I had at that point. Plus I was like, I'm,

I'm not that level of a driver yet. But I was like, if I can like, at least just stay out of people's

way and go out there and just like drive and have fun and kind of experience the whole like,

you know, Midwest Fest experience from like a driver's perspective, like I was like really hyped

on that. So that's what I did. And I can't remember like any, like major, like, you know,

incidents or problems or anything that I call is like, I feel like I was pretty decent about

like just keeping my head down and like not being stupid. I do remember like one time,

like locking the brakes up going into 11 and then just like going straight into like the pits

instead of like making the corner. But yeah, otherwise, other than that, like,

it was like me and me and Fez like battling it out for like 10th and 11th position in class

at that point. And it was like, we were having a blast because we were, we were both just like

within like 10ths of a second of each other. So that like, that's when I met him. And then like,

we were just kind of, you know, hyping each other up. And it was a lot of fun. And then just kind

of like watching, you know, the guys at the front like battle it out. I was like, man, like,

I, you know, hope to get there one day, you know, it was really inspiring.

Did it feel different competing?

It kind of did. Like it added that like extra, like, I guess, element to it.

I don't know if I'm looking back, like I, you know, definitely wasn't ready for it, like,

as a, you know, driver like skill wise, but it added like more excitement to what I was doing,

like having, you know, having a lap time and then seeing that, you know, one of my friends was like,

you know, within, you know, a couple of 10ths and like, you know, me and Fez trading position

back and forth, like every other session, like it just added a whole another layer of excitement

to just like doing laps. But that's not to say that like, even to this day, I still enjoy just

going out and doing like D laps and not having any sort of like, you know, pressure or competition

or anything like that. But I'm, I'm starting to pull on the strings that you've laid out

for us here. And I'm here in a strand of being interested in learning from your track night

right seat instructor. Certainly you've got a hot boy in you that likes to like build cars and,

you know, like make, you know, do stuff like that. But then, but then at the same point,

there's a little bit of that like adventure, let's go drive out to this track that's not

really close to, to where you are, just to like go hang out and experience it, which so looking

at these three things, learning, like learning to do better, go faster, that kind of stuff,

building a car, making it better, faster, or, you know, just expressing yourself.

And then the third of like, just having these new experiences, new tracks, which,

which one of those would you say started your motivation or started with your motivation

and has that stayed consistent throughout your time on track?

Man, that's, that's a tough one, actually. Because it is pretty accurate to say that

there's all like, kind of big, you know, like motivating factors, but I don't know which one,

like, takes precedent. But yeah, I think at first it was

like, getting in the driving and driving on track, like the, the experience of like learning

something new and kind of like seeing and feeling that progression is like a major driver.

Like getting those big chunks when you first go to a new track, stuff like that.

Yep. Yeah. And even to this day, like just little bits, you know what I mean? Because

I don't know, even this year, like I went to tracks and went like significantly faster than

before, whether that was me getting better or like the tire getting better or the car getting

better, you know, but it's like, it's still, I get that like, you know, that, that crazy dopamine

hit, you know, when I see the green lights on the aim, you know, it's, that's probably like the major,

the major driving force behind doing this is just like, you know, that, that feeling of

accomplishment when you like learn and improve at something. Because that's kind of, you know, what,

what skateboarding always was because it's, you know, that is a never, never an inquest of like

just learning new stuff. And then when you like, you know, you try a trick at like a million times,

you finally landed. It's like, like a huge, you know, high like dopamine hit. But then it's also

like, you know, kind of a double edged sword wearing, you know, just that same thing with

driving where you some days you're on and some days you're off. And then, you know, sometimes it gets

frustrating because you can't do what like you think you should be able to capable of doing, you

know what I mean? And I found a lot of parallels like in driving versus skateboarding in that

like way, like not like the mental aspect, but also like, you know, like kind of like a physical,

you know, like weight transfer and like balance and stuff like that all kind of

is like really applicable. Interesting. But then there's a lot of like mental things about like

you know, like mental focus and visualization and kind of like a

flow state and commitment, all this stuff that really like, you know, parallels between, you

know, learning how to drive or driving like fast on track, manipulating the car on the track.

You know, a lot of it's, there's similarities there. So I think, you know, like growing up

skateboarding and like almost kind of maybe like helped me or kind of like led me in the direction

of like, you know, wanting to or just enjoying driving cars, you know, kind of what the more

I learned about driving, I'm like, okay, this, this is kind of like, you know, in my like realm of

I don't know, like, I don't know how to describe it, but it makes sense that, you know, if I'm drawn

towards something like skateboarding or snowboarding or whatever the stuff I was doing that like cars

would be right at that or driving would be right at that alley, because it's like a very similar

like activity and you kind of get that same, you know, dopamine hit when you like, you know,

trail the brakes just right into a corner and you get that yaw and then like, you're like,

oh yeah, that felt good. It's the same thing as like, you know, doing a kickflip and like just

catching it real nice, you know, like Pete would totally understand this as well, because like

we've had some conversations about how like, yeah, it's like, it's, it's like that skateboarder mindset.

But then yeah, like the whole like driving across country and going to these new tracks was kind

of it's similar to like, but you know, me and my friends going to like, you know, DC and skating

and seeing stuff that like, you know, was like new to us, you know what I mean? It's kind of

along the same lines. It's like stuff I've been doing, you know, half of my life. Yeah.

Then maybe this, this is interesting drawing these parallels from skateboarding and

being someone who's never done skateboarding. I did a little bit of inline skating, but

you were talking about the mental focus and flow of skateboarding helping you

in driving. What can you share? Like what did that experience from skateboarding

help you with as you got more and more into driving?

Like there's a lot of, I think probably the biggest thing would be like the mental

like visualization of things like,

like with skateboarding to really be able to do anything, like any trick on like,

even just like down an obstacle, like let's say like jumping down a stair set or doing,

you know, some kind of trick down a stair set or off like off a ramp or even just on flat ground,

like, you know, we have like little like ledges and rails and stuff like that on flat ground.

You kind of have to be able to like visualize what you're going to do, like in a

like high detail before even just like throwing yourself at it, you know what I mean? Because

if you don't have like the, you know, the detailed mental visualization,

you're probably just going to like eat crap. Like there's, it's not just, it's not going to work.

And even when you think you think you have an idea of how something should happen,

there's, you know, it doesn't always actually like 90% of time doesn't always go how you plan.

So you kind of have this like split second, like reaction to either like abort and bail out of a

trick without like, you know, like breaking your ankle or something like that, or like adjust for,

you know, like a lack of precision or something like that, where it's kind of similar to

like driving into a corner. And you kind of have the visualization, like coming up to the

breaking zone, you're like, okay, like, I know where to break. I know kind of where I want to

start releasing the brakes and like trailing the car and having it, you know, twist on the way into

the corner. But then it's like, sometimes how you visualize it, it doesn't always happen exactly

how you want to. So then you have to like, almost without thought, like adjust, right? Like you

have to be like, a reaction to the not like a conscious thought, like, oh, crap, I'm pushing too

wide. And if you've already thought of that, like, you're probably reacting too late, it's just,

it becomes more of just like a subconscious like action, like, like DJ on the podcast talks about

subconscious executables. It's a lot of stuff like that is like just happening real fast in the back

of your brain, you're not consciously thinking about this thing. It's like the same thing in

skateboarding. It's like you get, you try a trick enough times and you're like, you can feel before

you even, you know, get off the ground sometimes where it's like, okay, I screwed it up. And

either I'm going to adjust and try and make it work and ride it out or I'm going to bail or,

you know, there's a point like if you're doing something down like a pretty big obstacle,

like hopping onto like a handrail down like a stair set or something like that,

there's a point in that trick where it's like past the point of no return where you have to commit

and, you know, either you're going to like land it or you're just going to like, you know, crash.

So it's, you know, I kind of parallel that to like, you know, corner entry where it's like,

all right, you know, you kind of, all right, I'm going to come off the brakes now. And it's like,

you kind of have to feel that amount of like momentum you have, you know, and feel the

way the car twisted on the corner. But then it's like, okay, I feel like now is when I can commit

back to throttle to make the exit. And then sometimes like, you know, you might overshoot it

a little bit, you might not be, if you don't commit at that point, either you're going to be too slow

or, you know, you might go off track on the outside or something like that. You know, there's

always like kind of like that point in your, you know, the, you know, the way into the corner

where you're just like, okay, I just kind of have to trust that like, this is going to work now,

if that makes sense. Yeah, it's a lot of that stuff has talked about as pattern recognition.

And so the more that you do a certain thing, you kind of recognize, and you're building up your

ability to sense these things too, like seeing yaw, feeling G forces, stuff like that. But yeah,

the more that you drive or you do a particular trick or like any trick in general, like,

you get the sense that, oh, when I feel this, and the board's doing this,

I'm about to make a mistake or like something that is about to happen. So if I just do this

little thing, maybe I can get it back. And so it's learning to recognize these patterns

at a smaller and smaller amount of detail. And almost seems like the same that you were

explaining with your mental imagery that you're doing that, you know, you were saying that not

all it doesn't always and sometimes often doesn't go the way that you pictured it. But that I bet

your mental imagery that you would have now is better than your mental imagery was,

you know, three, four, five years ago. Oh, absolutely.

And that's, that's interesting. The, and the amount of granularity, especially, you know,

we talk about cars are such physically large things. And the amount of, you know, controls

that we have over a car is really pretty small. You know, it's our hands on a wheel. It's our

feet on a couple pedals and maybe a shifter, you know, and that's, you know, the amount of

movement our head and our eyes are doing. That's really about it. But I've got a picture,

like with a skateboard, it's where your eyes are looking. It's how your body is postured. It's

which foot has more weight on it and where on that foot is the weight, the amount of grip on

your shoes versus like there's just so many more tiny details that it seems like that would be

almost jumping to, to cars would almost, I don't want to see more simple, but has fewer

physical details about it.

No, that's, you know, that's, uh, that's pretty accurate because yeah, like you said, it's,

there's so many little factors that you have to all get like, you know, almost perfect just to do

a simple little like flat ground flip trick, you know what I mean? Let alone something more like

big or complex or whatever it's skateboarding. So I guess like that, that level of like,

you know, fine motor skills and, um, you know, like mental visualization probably definitely

like helped me a ton, like stepping into a car and like trying to get it to do what I think I

wanted to do. But a lot of times what I think I wanted to do might not be what I should be trying

to get it to do, if that makes sense. And it's the same thing with skateboarding. It's like, oh,

I think this is how a trick should work, but then you try it and then you're like, all right,

I have to adjust and like figure out how this is actually going to work instead of trying to force

it to work the way I want it to, if that makes sense. And there's not a whole, there's no like,

I mean, maybe on the professional level, but there's no like formal coaching or anything

involved in skateboarding. So it's a lot of, you know, individuals trying to figure everything

out on their own or with like, you know, the help of like friends or somebody like, you know, if,

you know, if I see like a friend of mine trying a trick and something sticks out to me from like,

you know, the third person perspective that they're not seeing themselves, you know, I could point

that out. But a lot of it's like, you know, even like people that skate solo a lot just to like

try and learn something to like grind out on trying to get this one trick, like really good.

It's a lot of, you know, just that, um, you know, like solo, like individual learning process of

just trying to figure things out and self coach. Yeah. The amount of grit and determination

that I've got to imagine happens when somebody is just like, for hours trying to get like a

particular trick, like the kind of perseverance that that would build an individual, especially

when you're adding like physical pain to it when it doesn't. Yeah, there's plenty of that. Yeah.

Geez. So somewhere along your grid life journey, you started getting pretty fast and you started

developing the car pretty well. I know the few times that we've done setup checks on your car,

they've been pretty close. What, what have been some major lessons that you've learned

in kind of trying to balance car development with a driver skill?

Oh man.

Big question, I know. It is. Yeah. And it's like, I still feel like I'm so like

I'm a new or just like lacking in understanding to the, you know, the level that I like wish I

was at, especially with like car setup, because like I'll, you know, spend a lot of time

like reading and talking to people and trying to understand like, you know, the basics of the

basic stuff, you know, as far as like car setup goes. And then it's like, okay, well, let me,

let me kind of take what this person says and, you know, apply it to my car and try it and see

how it feels or, you know, if it works or if, you know, the desired effect is there or if I'm

just not as good enough a driver with enough fidelity, it's a kind of like extract, you know,

what I need to out of the car, you know, because sometimes like you can underdrive a car and it

feels good, but then you get it, you know, really on a limit of the tires and then it does something

that you didn't expect because like you were never, you know, you're never at the limit before to

even understand what the car would have done. Right. So it's, it's kind of just been like me

getting the car set up to a point where it's like just safe and predictable, I guess, and like

confidence inspiring towards, I know it's not gonna like, like it's, it's too pushy for someone

like James, right? But for me, knowing that it's not going to like, snap around on me if I don't

get the trail braking perfectly, or, you know, if I'm just a little too like hand-fisted with it,

it's, you know, it's just going to like, probably manifest into a push and then I can kind of wait

for the car to come back to me, you know what I mean? It's a lot easier to manage that way.

So that kind of like, like confidence that I've had has helped me kind of just like,

just build up pace. But now I'm kind of at the point where like,

I've, I've been trying to like loosen the car up this whole past season. And it felt like it was

a little more willing to y'all with like brake release last season than it has this season. So

I'm not sure like what I did with the setup to kind of make it go in the wrong direction.

Because I don't think I did any like massive changes. I think there's a couple of things that

I think I might have, you know, kind of like shot myself in the foot with as far as like

front ride height and like bump stop engagement that might, it might be causing it to kind of

like push on entry more than I would like. But there was kind of like a moment where,

what was it? It was, my camera, if it was, yeah, it was 2021 when I hopped in the car. I had

Tom, Tom Agourman drive the car at middle high that year that I went for DE. And just sitting

right seat with somebody like, you know, of that skill level was like, you know, hugely eye-opening

and just feeling kind of how he was able to, you know, get the car like almost intentionally

out of shape and then just bring it back before the exit curbing. I was like, okay, that's how

much you can like get away with, you know, and he would like figure that out in a lap, you know.

So he was kind of like over driving the car on entry and then like gathering it up. And I'm like,

wow, like, you know, there's a lot, there's a big window there of, you know, like slip angle and

like catchability and like y'all that you can get away with and gathered up a throttle and,

you know, just the amount of like momentum he would carry on entry and stuff like that. Like,

there was, I don't know how sharp he was on like the initial brake application. Like, oh,

somebody just learned, like just picked up on in that like two laps that I rode with him that

probably would have taken me like forever to figure out on my own or like somebody, you know,

like a coach or somebody like explained to me and I just didn't, you know, I didn't have that at the

time to, you know, understand anything. So it was a, it was a big moment where a lot of like the

conceptual understanding from like reading and like talking to other people kind of met that like,

you know, reality and like firsthand, you know, feeling of what the car could do in from my right

seat that made some things, I guess, quick. And I've been trying to like,

I guess, like chase that ever since if that makes sense. It does. Because I'm like, yeah,

like, it's like, I can still like vividly remember, you know, just kind of how you could feel him

like release the brakes and how the car would yell under the corner. And I'm like, man, like,

I can't even get my car to do that, that well now. When like, when I really want it to, you know,

like there's certain times where I'm like, okay, I'm releasing the brakes and I'm like, I have the

weight on the nose of the car and it's still just like once the push and like, I can kind of barely

feel the nose coming down the apex, but the rear is still like super stuck and tight. And I'm like,

all right, like, what do I need to do? Like, what am I doing wrong? Is it me? Like, is it my,

like the timing of the release? Am I like overloading the front tires to cause a push?

Or is there really something with the setup that I need to change? So then I've been kind of like

chasing my tail to like figure out what I'm, you know, what's wrong. And I don't have the,

I guess, like the knowledge really yet to like, like really dissect it and like, you know, figure

out like what direction to go to, to kind of get the setup more dialed in or have somebody point

out like, Hey, you're, you're doing this wrong, you know, with your right foot, like do better.

So yeah, it's like, I guess I've managed to, you know, work myself up to a pace like lap time-wise,

but I still like, I'm not, I'm not anywhere near where I want to be as a driver, obviously.

You say all of this, but you won the, you won the championship the last two years. Like,

you're not bad at this. Well, that, and to be honest, that answers the next question I was

going to ask, which was like, you've won the championship twice, like what, what keeps driving

you? And it's clear, like it's not where you know it can be. And do you want to get there?

Yeah. And like, I don't want to, I don't want to be like the type of person that is like,

blame the car setup for like that, not the car, not doing what I wanted to do. You know what I mean?

I know there's like a probably a large majority of it is based on my own inputs, but

I, I do, I do believe that there's always like a mesh between the two, right? Where it's like the

car setup should like give the driver, I guess, a bigger window to get the inputs right. Like,

I've, you know, I've heard DJ talk about that on this podcast a lot. And I'm like, that makes sense

to where like, you know, if the, if you have a bigger window on break release to get the car

to pivot like you want, but like, I feel like my car is just too tight. So I'm like, I keep

chasing like setup and then it's just not like the car is not responding the way I want to. So

that is kind of like a driving force where I know it's like, okay, I screw that up or like,

okay, I went fast through that corner, but it felt gross because the thing pushed the whole way.

You know, it's like, that's kind of where I'm at now is just like, how can I get the car to do

what I want? And like, if I, if I can get the car to maybe comfortably act the way I want,

then maybe I'll be able to extract even more time out of it. But then you'll get to be a

better driver and then you'll need to change the car again. Like you do know this is a moving

target, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. My, absolutely. My favorite response, like whenever I ask somebody

is like, well, what's, you know, if you could make the car do one thing better, what would it be?

And like their answer is power or, you know, it's just like, no, I don't know. The car is good. I'm

like, well, you need to drive better or faster or both because that can't be true. Like you said,

you get to the car to a point where hopefully it's better than you, then you catch up to it

to the point where like, yeah, the car is good. It's like, that's great, but I want you to find a

problem, like find what's next. Because for a while, two and a half degrees of camber is great.

Right? Yeah. I mean, do you remember when you put two and a half degrees of camber and you're

like, this is so much camber. Nobody can possibly use this. And like, pretty quickly you find out

that's not enough camber. Yeah, back when, like my first season on like RS4s and I'm like, you know,

basically have no camber adjustment in the front and I'm thinking I'm, you know, I got plenty and

then I find out, you know, the next season and I'm like, all right, I need actual camber adjustment

if I'm going to try and run stickier tires and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I mean, it's like,

you know, like you said, now I'm kind of doing the same thing where it's like the car's always

been better than me. And I've always been very aware that the car has a higher potential that

I can get out of it as a driver. So I keep finding these like big chunks without doing anything like

crazy to the car, like at least the past like two seasons, I haven't really done anything like massive,

you know, it's done little bits of here and there trying to like improve gearing and whatever. But

really since I put like a proper like plate diff in the thing and got the arrow kind of to what

like the class was able to, I was like, all right, now it's like, it's up to me as a driver to get,

you know, most of that, you know, most of the pace out of the car. And

somewhere along the line, I think I forget what, which winner it was, was when I finally picked up a

like a sim rig and like had a PC that was capable of running iRacing and et cetera. So it was,

that was a big help to kind of like make some things click for me.

Just spending hours just like, you know, doing laps and trying to, you know, understand

like where to find time on a racetrack or how to kind of like consciously think through a lap,

you know, like, I'll give up someone entry to get someone exit here or whatever, you know,

it's like stuff like that. But I think was like concepts that I didn't really fully understand

before. And it's still probably, you know, not as well as I could now, but you know, it's kind of a

big, big learning curve for me is under, like understanding how to kind of prioritize exits

on some corners and not just bomb entries everywhere, or think I'm bombing entries and I'm

really like still slow and entry and slow and exit. But yeah, I don't know, it's just,

yeah, there's still like so much for me to learn. And

that's why like, I don't know, like people act like I'm fast because I want a championship

in a class. And I'm like, like, I really am not that, I'm not that good at this.

The car, the car is decent enough to where I can get like,

enough potential out of the car, I guess, to be, you know, barely faster sometimes,

not all the time than like the other guys in my class, you know, that's really it. It's like,

yeah. Mario came correct this year. First half of the year was wild for him.

He was like, yeah, he was at most events, he was like in raw pace. He was faster than me.

Like right off the bat, first session at CMP, first event this year, he was like reset the record,

went considerably faster than I did the previous season, went faster than Houghton did the previous

season. And then I spent all weekend like trying to chase him, like I couldn't get within a half

a second of him. So, and that, you know, most of the events after that, besides like, like

mid Ohio and pit race, most of the events that like him and I were both at, like he was always just

like, you know, at least a few times faster than me. So it's, you know, it's just like,

obviously the competition format played in my favor, you know, points wise and everything this

season, but it's not like, it's not like I was always the fastest, you know, car driver combo

in the class, you know, like Lime Rock, like freaking Pete handed it to me at Lime Rock this

year. And I was like, I don't know what I have for this, you know, Pete handed it to some track mod

cars at Lime Rock. It was, he still came back on that and we watched the lap and I mean, it was

a good lap. There was still margin there for sure, but like we watched and I just like

did not think that was possible. And yeah, and of course, like you always, you've been on iRacing

long enough at this point that you should know that like whenever you put a lap together and

you're like, boy, I feel like that's close. You go compare that data with some public data and

you're like, cool, there's three more seconds. Yep. Exactly. So what? So next year you're

doing club TR again, right? Yeah, I was kind of up in the air about like what I wanted to do next

year. I was planning on taking not like a complete year off, but like doing maybe two events and

just trying to like basically save money and figure out. You're going to be able to do that?

That's the problem. Like it's like my plan has already kind of gone out the window. Like

it was a good plan for like a few months, right? And then, you know, the new schedule came out.

I kind of got like excited about going to some events and then I started to kind of make a

plan of like, all right, what, you know, what events do I want to do? And then I saw the

client was coming back. So I was like, all right, I definitely got to do that one. And then,

you know, then some like, you know, sponsorship opportunities, I guess the like support that

I wasn't expecting to get this year, like is, you know, kind of on the table that, you know,

I figure well, if the offers are there that I'm on as well, like go run another full season again

and take advantage of, you know, the opportunity while it's there. So I'm probably going to end

up doing another four minutes next season when I was originally planning on only doing like two.

So yeah, here we are. Yeah. And Mario, yeah, Mario sounds like he's coming hard again. He's

not done with it. Pete, Pete's still coming after everything. So it's going to be another

exciting year, I think. Yeah, no doubt. And it's going to be, it's going to be interesting because

this year we're like, how few events there are overall, you know, and it's, you know, I know

talking to Pete, he's planning on doing all of them, right? And then originally Mario was kind

of in the same boat as me, where he's just like, yeah, like, I don't know what I'm going to do

next year. This like, you know, this year was, he was planning on being his last year, but now

he's like geared up to go for another one. He was talking about only doing four out of the six

next season. So like, you know, how the points are going to stack up between who does which events

and, you know, there's not going to be that many drop rounds this year. So it's like,

it's really going to be interesting. And Stan has been getting quicker. And Mike has been getting

quicker. I mean, there's, there's a good six cars that I think could land in the top three

in any given weekend. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing. It's like,

you know, even a, even a pit race this last event, you know, we were all kind of like,

all right, we had the idea in like our head, like who is going to kind of be in the top five,

you know what I mean? But then it's like every event, somebody, you know, everybody's leveling

up like every single event. So it's everybody's trying really hard. So next season, it's like,

who knows like how that, you know, top five, top three is going to really like flesh out with,

you know, especially just given the less amount of events, you know, that they're doing next

year. So it'll be interesting. I definitely like if I'm not, you know, if I do four, that'll

probably be the max. I'm still kind of up in the air about, you know, whether I'm going to do three,

I haven't, you know, a set plan to do like three events at the least. But that fourth one, I might,

I'll see if I go back to Midwest Fest again, because I skipped it this year. But

if I get to take it from Midwest Fest, that'll be my fourth event. And then I'll probably do

Rhode Atlanta, Lime Rock and the Glen. And then just kind of see how it shakes out. And, you know,

no, I don't have any, you know, aspirations for like going for another championship. I just kind

of like this year, I just kind of want to go out and have like just no pressure and work on, you

know, work on myself as a driver, work on like getting the car to do what I want it to do and

really just like enjoy the events for what they are and keep the pressure light.

Well, I'll look forward to Midway through this season, asking how that whole having a relaxed

and fun season is going for you. Because genuinely, I hope it does. But we all know the

famous line about getting hit in the face and how that changes plans.

Yeah, that's kind of, well, I mean, this season, I kind of had the same,

same objective this season, which is kind of like, okay, I won, I won a championship and now I kind

of didn't feel like as much pressure to go out and win again. And I didn't think it was even going

to be possible after the first, I don't know, five events this season. So it's just kind of,

it's a surprise that the way like the math and the points worked out going into that last event,

like how it was kind of on the table for like any of us in the top three. So it wasn't, you know, the

there was, I wasn't really like putting a whole lot of pressure on myself at all this season. I

knew that like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to be slow, like I didn't want to suck, you know,

but I wasn't expecting to like, you know, be the fastest one or, you know, like win any of the

events, you know, so it was cool that like, you know, I got a couple wins under my belt and

somehow that was enough to come away with a championship, but, you know, like I didn't,

I didn't really, I wasn't gunning for it this year and like, I won't be next year either. So,

you know, it's just kind of like however the, however the chips fall is what it is, you know,

yeah, it's better for me. Like mentally, I don't, I don't like to put a ton of pressure on myself.

It kind of just ruins the, the enjoyment, I guess, blows a little bit. Yeah. You should,

you should post some of your in-car video on the discord for, for us to watch. And maybe we can,

maybe we can spot something in either in your pedals and wheel or maybe

some suggestions or questions on setup and stuff like that might be worth it.

Yeah, I can definitely do that. I have like most of my, you know, faster laps and like some other

ones up on YouTube and stuff that I can post links, but I really kind of want to get a pedal

cam set up and like maybe like break pressure trace and stuff like that would be nice to

kind of like dissect that a little bit. But it's just, you know, more money to spend and

more hardware to put on the car to, you know, it never ends. Nope. It doesn't, if you let it.

Well, who do you, who do you need to say hi to and say thanks to?

I guess security instruments, they've been helping me out since, you know,

well the past few years, like they've, you know, been helping me get to events and,

you know, putting parts and stuff from a car fortune auto with for the suspension I have on

there. It's, it's been pretty instrumental in helping the car, you know, just be faster.

Home developments, hawk brakes.

Who else am I missing? I'm probably missing like people and they're going to get mad at me.

Yaw speed. Yaw speed. Yeah. Yaw speed. Fire laps through a fire link in the car this year.

So that was pretty cool. Unit two helped me out with keep my oil pressure up with a nice pan.

Yeah, it's probably about it. Then my girlfriend Alicia for putting up with all this crap and

coming out with me to every single event and, you know, being is incredibly supportive, you know,

more so than I could even ask for. So I owe her probably like the most thanks and gratitude for,

you know, taking care of me and keeping me fed and, you know,

it's a big deal being as supportive as she knows how to. So it's been pretty awesome.

And where can people follow you and learn more about all the shenanigans that you're up to?

Mostly on Instagram. There's at Big Mac V tech. That was kind of a joke that Eddie Segal came up

with that one. And I just kind of ran with it. And then I think YouTube is the same.

That could be wrong. They have a YouTube channel with me, like I said, basically just like a bunch

of laps and then Evan McLaren on Facebook. And that's about it.

Nice. Well, we'll have those links in the show notes for everyone as well. But Evan, thanks for

joining us. It's been a long time coming talking to you and getting to know a little bit more about

your background and all the nonsense that you were up to towards the beginning there.

Yeah, for sure. It's been definitely been a pleasure. Sorry to anyone who's still listening

to this and like made it this far into it. But yeah, thanks for having me on.

No, if they've made it this far in terms of episodes, they absolutely know what they're

getting into. So that's fair. Your competitors are mining this for information right now.

Well, we are at Trackwalking podcast on the socials and the discord is where we're hanging

out these days. Links are all down the show notes. Like review, thumbs up kind of all that

stuff is always a big help. So appreciate the listen and Evan, like I said before, appreciate

your time. But that'll do it for us this week for the three of us. I'm Scott. And I'm Seth.

And I'm Evan. Have a good week and we'll talk to you next.

221 - Neverending Quest of Learning New Stuff (Evan McLaren)

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