The EV Musings Podcast Aug 25, 2025

264 - The Battery Issue Episode

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Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 264 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles

and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners.

And on the show today, we'll be looking at EV battery repairs.

This segment of the podcast is sponsored by ZAPMAP, the go-to app for EV drivers helping

you find and pay for public charging with confidence.

Now our main topic of discussion today is battery repairs.

Long time listeners will possibly remember Pete Mooney from episode 150 where he came

on to chat about his EV6 and what it was like to live with as a vehicle.

Now that was way back in 2022, since then he's been merrily putting the miles

on to the point where he's done around 100,000 of them at the moment.

Now that's pretty impressive for any car but it's important in the big scheme of things

for electric cars because that's the point at which battery warranties tend to expire.

Usually it's 8 years or 100,000 miles whichever comes first.

Naturally, Pete's a little worried about what happens now.

But remember, a warranty isn't a lifespan indicator, it's a time limit for covered repairs.

All cars have warranties from new, most are in the 3-5 year range covering parts and

often labour for things that go wrong that are not wear and tear.

Kia and Hyundai are something of an exception with the 7 year parts and labour warranty

covering everything on the car.

So let me ask you, when was the last time you had a car that was out of warranty and were

really concerned about it?

Well the answer, especially if you don't buy brand new cars, is probably rarely.

You know these are cars and things go wrong.

If they're covered, somebody else pays to replace them and if not, you pay to replace.

Cam belts, timing belts, cylinder heads, fuel injectors, water pumps etc.

But when it comes to electric vehicles, the big thing that most people worry about and

that most anti-EV people pontificate about is the battery.

And the reason is that battery packs, especially some of the earlier ones on the Tesla Model

S etc. were very expensive if you had to replace them yourself.

As they are the main part of the EV, it stands to reason that people are going

to be concerned about them and how long they last.

So today we're looking at batteries.

What sort of issues and errors can occur?

How often do errors crop up?

And does every battery issue mean a complete replacement of the battery unit?

Now I could talk at great length about this and do lots and lots of research in in-depth

analysis.

But you know me, I'm basically lazy so I thought the easiest thing to do would

be to get somebody on who actually knows what they're talking about and ask them

the questions instead.

Hello, I'm Sara Ridley.

I work for Autocraft Solutions Group and I'm the Engineering and Quality Director

there.

We're engine remanufacturers and battery remanufacturers for EV vehicles.

What's your EV story?

How did Dr Sara Ridley come to the world of electric vehicles?

I assume we drive electric.

I drive a hybrid actually at the moment.

But yes, well I started off with engines as most people do and I started off in remanufacturing.

So remanufacturing basically takes things at the end of their lives and gives them

new lives.

And we've been doing that with conventional engines for years and years and years.

And it's a huge passion of mine because things come in broken and they go out completely useful

again and that's the standard they should be.

And we realised probably 10 years ago that EVs were starting to come in and we started

very slowly with a few government programmes like the Faraday Challenge with very small

battery packs.

But it's snowballed and we realised probably about five years ago that actually if the

world is transitioning to EV they're going to need solutions for them because as with

all things the second hand market is what drives everything and that's having confidence

that what you have can be as easily repaired, as easily looked after, as easily gives you

the same sort of life drives the second hand market which drives the new market which

helps us to transition.

And I think we all agree that transitioning to EV is the most important thing we can

do at the moment for the planet.

It might not be perfect forever but that's really good now.

So let's talk a little bit about EV batteries.

Let's start by can you address the big bit of misinformation that a lot of non-EV

drivers and some EV drivers have probably heard which is your EV battery is the same

as your iPhone it lasted about three years before being useless.

So if someone says that to you how do you tend to respond?

In the sense that it uses the same technology I understand where they're

coming from.

The reality is that in most people's experience an EV battery will last

without much need for any kind of intervention for about eight years.

That's this widely published statistics on that.

Equally, we know that at the moment the failure rate is slightly higher.

It's about half a percent.

So that's higher than you would get with internal combustion engines.

But realistically, they've been down for a hundred more years.

So we would expect them to be more stable.

However, we do know that in the vast majority of cases where batteries

do start to fail a bit earlier, you can do something about it.

You can repair them.

You can get proper testing.

You can get a proper repair.

And it will carry on lasting and the bonus of an EV battery in many ways

actually over an iPhone battery.

And that's largely about economics is if you look at your phone battery,

it's very tiny uses the same technology, but very tiny.

And it's a battery, a cell normally.

However, an EV battery is made up of lots of cells and modules,

and they can be individually replaced in many instances.

And that gives you a much longer life and a much more

economical state of repair.

So, yes, there are failures, but there are failures in every kind of transportation.

They're not massive.

It's unlucky if you get one.

I wouldn't argue that one, but you can do a lot about them.

So for me, that's not a barrier.

I'm going to come on a little bit about the failure rate in a second,

but just a little bit of anecdote.

I've had electric vehicles for seven or eight years now.

They've all been or at least from you, other than the one I'm currently in,

which I picked up a couple of weeks ago, and that's a used electric vehicle.

It's not saying pie mileage, but it's 55,000 miles already with,

and it's about five years old.

But of course, the first thing I did when I went to buy it

is I got a battery health check and it came out at 92%,

which I'm quite comfortable with that.

Ken, are you able to talk a little bit about battery health checks?

How useful are they?

How accurate can they be?

The reality is it does depend on the technology used to do the check.

So we have found in our experience that the simple checks

that are done through the battery management system

often are not overly accurate.

That's partly because they're a snapshot in time.

So a lot of battery checks are effectively static checks.

It tells you what the health of your battery is at that point.

What it doesn't tell you is how your battery reacts

over a period of events, so charging and discharging cycles.

So what we would call active testing rather than passive testing.

And that's really important because that sets the profile

for how well it will hold the charge.

See, it might have been very well charged

and holding at that point,

but actually if it's been overly used,

so we find that very fast charging and discharging,

so rapid charging and discharging

affect the health of the battery over a period of time.

So after five years,

yours has obviously been very well looked after

if it's got 92% state of health, that's really good.

But some of them actually degrade further than that.

So a very good test can not only tell you

what your state of health is now,

but it will also predict what's likely to fail

over a relatively short period of time.

And that's really useful, particularly with a secondhand car

because it gives you an idea about what sort of longevity

you're gonna get, where your range is like to be.

And also, if you have those bits repaired,

where your range would be.

So that's really, really important.

So there are some quite superficial checks.

That would give you a snapshot,

but we would always recommend an active test

because that will give you a much more comprehensive picture.

Would you feel comfortable naming the kind of companies

that provide the active tests that you're talking about?

I can't honestly sit here and recommend one.

We don't deal directly with the general public

at this point.

We work through partners, mostly OEM partners,

both battery and vehicle OEMs.

However, we have found that most of the tests

that we have tried are not particularly comprehensive.

So I couldn't honestly sit here and say to you,

I could definitely recommend one.

And I really don't want to mislead you.

Fair enough.

One of the things that,

I don't know whether it's anecdotal or not,

is that with, when we're looking at battery tests,

one of the things that can quote unquote skew

the state of health is that there are the buffers

at the top and the bottom of a battery to protect it.

There are certain vehicles

which will sort of release a little bit of that buffer

as the degradation occurs.

So it gives a, not necessarily a false reading,

but one that may not be as accurate as it could be.

Is that an accurate statement?

Yes, it is.

We do know that there are some manufacturers

that protect their batteries.

And what I would say to you though,

is that the most efficient way

and the most way to make, for it to last longer

is to keep your battery somewhere between about 35%

and about 70% charged at any one time.

And that's honestly exactly the same for your phone.

Charging it all the way up

and discharging it virtually all the way down

and not healthy for the battery.

So part of that will be to protect your battery health

and keep it lasting as long as possible.

So yes, it is slightly slewed,

but the reality is that we can accurately check

where a battery should be

against the amount of miles it's done in its age.

So we understand where that level should be.

And actually all that the manufacturer is doing

by releasing some at either end of that standard

is protecting you

and keeping your battery lasting for a lot longer.

A big fear that a lot of people have,

particularly ones who don't drive electric

or are brand new to electric

is that their EV will stop one day

because the battery has died.

Now I'm holding up for the people

who are listening and not watching.

I'm holding up a standard nine volt square battery,

which I've been using these for decades.

I've never had one of these, quote unquote, die on me.

I've had one where it's run out of charge.

I've had one where I've left it in a device

and it's crusted over

and corroded at the top and stopped working.

But I've never actually had the battery itself die.

So when somebody says, oh, well, my EV battery has died,

what exactly are they talking about?

What's the actual mechanism that's occurring there?

So there are two things.

So one it will have in the same way

as a conventionally powered vehicle

will have effectively a limp mode.

So you're getting close, so it will restrict you

and that won't allow you to put your foot down

and go really fast and rapidly to charge it.

And the idea is it's to get you

to a safe location to recharge.

So that's technology that's not actually in the battery

but in the management system.

And that's the same in any management system.

You'll have that in any kind of vehicle.

Typically, it's very unusual for a whole pack to fail

but typically if it does,

it's likely to be something like a broken connection.

So they tend to be wired in series and in parallel.

So it's more likely to be a mechanical fault

than a battery fault

in terms of the actual reaction of the battery.

We very, very rarely see one.

I can't say that there's never been one.

We do see occasional faults

in terms of the connections and things like that

as well as just with an EV battery

because as you know, it's a chemical reaction

from the moment it's made.

And whilst they are made in the same place

at the same time, it's like anything else.

There is variation.

So you get variation in the way they react.

Typically, they're the biggest amount of failures.

You do sometimes see them in the connections

and things like that.

But we don't see very many of those.

So typically batteries are very well made.

We've talked about the buffer and the bottom buffer.

Have we ever had instances

or are you ever aware of instances

where people have managed to run that buffer solo

that it has physically got to the point

where they've run so much charge out,

there's no buffer left

and it has destroyed the battery

from that point of view?

We've never come across an instance of that, no.

Not with our customers.

Fair enough.

In reality, I know you quoted a stat a little bit earlier

but in reality, how often should an error or fault mean

that a brand new battery is required

versus a change of a cell or a bit of a pack

or the BMS or something other than the actual battery itself?

So this is one of those really interesting things.

It's a little bit like Triggers Brew.

You can replace the handle,

you can place the head and you can keep it going.

And in theory, an EV pack is exactly the same.

So you can replace anything in it multiple times.

Now we know in practice that once it gets below

and this does vary a bit with manufacturer

but about 75% of its overall ability to hold a charge

and to deliver that properly,

then it typically isn't suitable for EV use.

So for a vehicle, we would want it to be above that

and say it does vary slightly to manufacturer

but that's a rule of thumb I would say about there.

Realistically, you can replace any of those parts

all the way up to there

but at that point it's still got a very useful life

and that useful life can be as secondary storage,

it can be to help balance the grid,

we can even use them to power charging stations

because you trickle charge the battery pack

which gives you a quicker charge

and then it trickle charges back again

or you can do it by things like solar panels,

wind power, anything like that.

So in theory, you wouldn't need a new pack

in that vehicle until you got down below that.

Now we do know that packs are replaced more often

and sometimes that's because of the availability of repair

and the availability of packs

and part of that is because the technology

is growing so rapidly that chemistry changes

and so it's literally about how do we use those

to make sure we can continue with those batteries

and keep those batteries going?

You know, you said your car,

the one that you're currently driving

is about five years old.

I would be willing to bet that the chemistry

has moved on in the same model of vehicle considerably

and so it's, for me, the only thing that's a barrier

to us being able to repair that

is where do we get the replacement cells or modules

because typically that's what it is and we harvest them.

So what we've found over our experience

is that 92% roughly, 92 to 94% of any failed pack

is fine, really good, absolutely fit for use

and it's only one or two modules or cells

that's the problem.

Now talk about modules or cells

because that comes down to pack architecture.

We can do the testing to cell level,

we can replace at cell level,

but if the pack architecture means

we have to take a whole module, not a cell

because we'll break it otherwise,

then you have to change a module.

So what we actually do is we harvest the 92% that are good.

We test them, we grade them, we put them on the shelf

and then we can use those to repair and replace other packs

which means that we can keep them going for a lot longer

and that's really, really important.

I worry very greatly

that we're leaping straight towards recycling.

Now don't get me wrong, recycling is brilliant,

we all recycle and it's the right thing to do

but it's premature recycling in terms of packs

because they can have so much more life.

The EV process for building one

means that all of the damage to the environment

is upfront, all of the emissions,

all of those things are upfront.

Now we know by the time it gets to about

age yours isn't about that sort of mileage,

it's paid off its debt, it becomes neutral

but if we can then extend it for another five to eight years

actually it becomes positive

and that's the really big thing

and if we do it with harvested modules

it becomes even more positive

and that's how we're gonna get towards that whole

carbon neutral non-damaging thing for me.

So it's about maintaining that level of change.

So many questions have come out of that

which I don't know that's fine.

We had Stephen Williams who works

with the EV insurance industry on the podcast last season

and he was talking about the fact

that one of the reasons why EV premiums are so high

is because there are, and you touched on it there,

is that there are many repairs who,

they look at a battery,

they see there's an issue with the battery

and they don't want to repair it,

they want to replace it.

So of course rather than having to take out a cell

or a module and whatever that cost is gonna be

they're gonna say, no,

we're gonna take out the whole battery

and replace with a brand new one.

How much of that do you believe is a result of the fact

that it's something completely unknown

and it's easier to do that versus,

well actually there's an education aspect.

There's companies like yourself that need to be out there

working with the insurance companies and saying,

look, we can do quote unquote cheaper repairs

at the cell or the module level

rather than doing a full battery replacement.

I think actually it's a bit of both.

Now, I think that the education's getting better,

we're getting more and more technicians qualified

to remove batteries and do those things

but actual repair is quite an infancy.

There aren't that many companies doing it

and it's about people knowing about it.

We are starting to get some interest from insurers

because we do understand that part of it's fear

of the unknown, they are high voltage,

they are dangerous.

Not where they're in a vehicle

but when they are taken out

or when their lids come off,

they are very dangerous.

So the first thing we do when we get a pack in

is we put it through our initial testing

which not only checks to see,

is it damaged in any way

but brings it down to a safe state of charge.

So roughly 20%, 20, 20, 30%.

Again, it slightly depends on the size of the battery

and things like that, but we bring it down

and that's so we know that it's a safe point.

You can't really bring it down to zero

because chemical reaction doesn't just stop

but what we have to do is bring it down to where it's safe

and we can actually do that by going out

so we have mobile units that can go out

and make batteries safe

and that's really important for us

because when we're transporting them around,

once you take it out of the car, it becomes dangerous goods

and you have to be really careful about transporting it

and that, to be honest, and that adds to the cost.

When you think for an average EV,

the cost of the battery is about 40%

and the cost of the vehicle,

replacing it's very, very expensive.

So I think the lack of people

who are qualified to deal with them,

the lack of awareness that they can be repaired

and that actually repairs that can be very cost effective.

It varies depending on what's needed

but certainly up to about 50% of the cost of a pack

you can save if not a little more.

I'd say that it does vary a lot depending on what's wrong.

I couldn't give you an absolute figure

and it also depends a little bit on the architecture of the pack.

We know with some packs they are studied with resin

so we would call it potted or glue in some way.

That makes it very difficult for them to be changed out

but a lot of packs are made on a modular level

and on a cell level

and so providing they can be replaced,

they can be repaired really easily, they really can

and I think that that's the thing here is

if we can get the message out there,

if we can work with enough people to say

you can repair this, it's cost effective,

you could get an independent test done

that will give you a good idea of where it is

because let's be honest,

I've been in automotive for a lot of years now

and I can go out and I can look at a second hand

internally combustion engine powered car

with reasonable certainty.

I can drive it, I was out with my son at the weekend

looking at some with one of my sons

because he wants a new car

and we were looking at some second hand cars

and I can be really fairly certain.

I'm working an EV, I could get into an EV car

at a dealers and I wouldn't know, I really wouldn't

because there's nothing to see, there's nothing to hear.

You need a proper check

and I think if we can get all those things in place

and not just in terms of the general public

but in terms of dealers, independent garages, insurers,

actually it starts to become a real snowball

and that'll help everybody,

it really does help it going forward.

Now the other thing that you mentioned earlier on

was the concept of harvesting,

so taking actually that's probably not 100%

taking a battery.

We're just nagging it, we literally take it apart.

Okay and then you'll take out the cells

and the modules that are good and you'll trash the rest.

Now you did also mention that potentially

the chemistry of the battery that's in my vehicle

will not necessarily be the same

of the chemistry in the battery of the same vehicle

that is brand new.

What's just, I think I know the answer

but I'll ask the question anyway.

Could you take harvested batteries, cells from a new battery

and put them in and replace a fraction of the cells

in my battery even though the chemistry is slightly different?

No, it's not generally, we wouldn't generally do that.

That's not really safe.

The battery is set up to work in a very specific way

and it's managed in a very specific way.

In the same way as I couldn't put a brand new module

or cell of the same chemistry into a battery pack

without first balancing it to the profile of the pack

because what you actually do is you create an imbalance

and that's where you get things like damage the packs

from things like thermal runaway, you create an imbalance.

So all we do, we try to keep it

that as balanced as possible, that makes it more efficient.

It also makes it safer for everybody.

Can you go through a little bit

the actual testing process that you go through?

Why is it not possible or why is it not just as simple

as looking at the BMS and saying, right,

that's what the BMS says the issue is,

therefore that's what the issue is.

Why is it a little bit more complex than that?

Because I always stick them as living organisms

because of the chemical reaction

because that's essentially what they are.

They are a dynamic.

What the state of house does if you plug into the BMS

is it gives you a, this is what I'm doing now.

Typically that's done when it's static,

it's been sat for a while,

it's in a sort of garage type location and you plug in

and it will tell you what's happening now

which is that they are just resting

and ticking over with their chemical reactions.

Now it might well tell you that it's only at 90%

or it's at whatever percent

but it won't actually give you a whole picture

of how it behaves.

So when you excite those cells

which you do when you are discharging

or when you're charging

they behave very differently

and what we need to understand

is what's the lowest performing of those cells

because that's where your actual overall performance will be.

When it's resting and sat

you'll get an overall picture of the whole of the battery.

Once you start to excite those cells

and once you start to charge and discharge them

and put them through those cycles

what you actually see is individually what are they doing

and when you can see individually what they're doing

you can understand what the actual overall picture is.

You can also see if there are any disconnections effectively

so if there is a connector issue

you'll be able to see that

because there'll be a part of it that isn't performing as well

and you'll be able to spot that

and you can also see not only where they are currently

but where they're moving to and from

and that's really important again

for the overall health of the life.

If you think about it as a sort of a range

so it will sit within that range

but once you start to discharge

it will move between that.

What you want to understand is are they all the same

or have you got one that's down here?

Because if you've got one that's down here

that's what will affect the overall operation of the pack

as opposed to its resting state.

Now a lot of people who will either be watching this

or listening to this will have potentially researched on YouTube

and they will have seen people like Jonathan Porterfield

and Andrew Tild plug in ODB connectors

into the vehicle

and using something like leaf spy or equivalent

to look at the state of the cells.

Is it as simple as that?

Is that what you're talking about

or is it something sort of a level above that?

So we do that in part as well

but we have other tests as well that we do

and they're designed to understand

not only whether we've got that going

but whether we can see any lithium that's shifting

so whether we're gonna get any plating

in terms of anodes of cathodes

whether we can see any degradation

and things like that.

There's a whole suite of testing that we do

which is all patented

because it runs in a specific way

to give us a comprehensive report.

So some of the tests are out there

some of the bits of testing that we do

you can see in other places

but the overall suite and the way we run it

is actually what gives us the comprehensive view of it.

Okay, now I realize we've been talking for 25 minutes

that we've talked about cells and modules and batteries

we haven't actually done a definition of

what's the cell, what's the module

and how does that put together?

Can you give us the battery 101 on that please?

Well, I always think of it

and this is a really old fashioned view

but I'm gonna tell you anyway

it's probably to do with my ages

when you go into an airport and into duty free

certainly before nowadays

I think they're all curtained away

you see cartons of cigarettes to bring home

sort of in a shrink wrapped into packs

so if you think about one of those cartons

as an EV battery

each one of those packs inside it

is essentially a module

and each of the cigarettes inside the pack

is a cell.

Now, that's the easiest

I always think that's a really easy way of visualizing it

because I think we've all seen them in, you know

sometimes they are arranged just like that

so there are cells inside the modules

the modules are then built into the battery pack

that battery pack is then built into the vehicle

that way, if they are welded or attached mechanically

in some way to each module

you can replace the cell level

you can see what's happening at cell level

you can place it cell level

or if they are plated

so in other words glued in in some form with resin

or with the glue of some kind

you might have to replace the whole module

but typically you could have up to 30 or 40 of those in a pack

so it's only a portion of the pack

that's being changed at any one time

we are seeing more and more packs

where it is just cells into the whole pack itself

those ones, it depends again

is it put in with resin

because they're much more difficult to do

without breaking all the architecture around them

or is there a weld or a mechanical fixing in some way

those ones again, relatively easy to change

Is cell replacement or module replacement possible

on all electric vehicles?

For instance, I know that Tesla used batteries

as they're integrated into the chassis

on some of the model 3s and Model Ys

is that an issue?

Yes, it can be

so the way we work with a lot of our OEMs

is it works in exactly the same way

as if you take your car to the dealer

and you need a new wind mirror

the dealer orders one, one gets delivered

they change it out

and they do whatever they need to do

with the one they've taken off

so typically what will happen with our OEM customers

is their dealers will go onto their portal

they'll say I have this battery

and they'll do it by serial number

because we know all about it

and that links into our portal

they will order one of the same sort of battery

we will dispatch that to them

so it will be the same state of health

the same chemistry, the same battery type

again, by serial number

so we have a traceability

all the way through of everything that happens

including by serial number

the bits we take out and replace

so what goes in and what goes out

and what happens to it afterwards

of each of those cells or modules

we will send that out to them

with the packaging

and all the paperwork for the old battery

they'll replace it

they'll give us back the old one

we'll repair that and put that back on the shell

so that makes it a really slick process

now, where you've got things

that are built into the chassis

depending on again

and it does depend on how it's been put onto the chassis

yes, it could be repaired

the problem is I need the whole vehicle

because we've got to basically dismantle it

in order to get to it

and that is the problem

so one of the things we work very closely

with our vehicle OEM manufacturers

on how they are developing their new vehicles

because as an EV driver

the last thing you want to do

is have to give up your entire vehicle for

quite a while to have somebody dismantle it completely

in order to get to the chassis and to the pack

whereas some of the more easily repaired ones

and certainly with some of Tesla's riding rules

you remove the whole battery pack

you replace the whole battery pack

again, it can be with a repaired one

doesn't have to be a brand new one

but one that works in the same way

that's the same age and the same mileage

we balance all that out

and then it's a much sick process

the garage maybe only has it for a day or two

which is no real different for you having a vehicle

change or a part change

sorry, on a conventional vehicle

and there is presumably a cost implication

for taking something in and having to take the whole vehicle

apart to get the back of the box

I mean, and this is the problem

is that then makes it much more expensive

it also, and I do think this is really important

for me this is really important

as a, I don't have skin in the game

direct to customers

because we don't deal directly with customers

you know, the end users

so for me it's not

I've got no real skin in the game of that

but the reality for me is

if we don't allow independent garages

as well as dealers to be able to do these things

then there's an awful lot of people who will be disinventurized

and we can't afford to do that

we really can't

you know, if you take your always

you know, if you change your car in three years

you take it to the main dealers

to have the servicing done

then actually probably it's not such a big deal

it'll be very expensive

but it's not such a big deal

but if like the majority of people

you don't, you buy a second hard car

you take it to an independent garage to do that

actually we're disinfanturizing all of those people

because what we're saying is

only Tesla people in this case

or only that OEMs people could do it

only their dealers

it's gonna cost an awful lot of money

and where I look at a second hand one

I'd be thinking if I buy that

I could be opening myself to a world of pain

and the reality is that

most people don't buy a new car every year

most people want to be responsible environmentally

they want things to be really

you know, they wanna be doing the right thing

and we're not allowing them to

unless we open that up

so for me that the way we build our EV vehicles

is hugely important

and that's why we work both with our battery OEM customers

and with our vehicle OEM customers

to try and make sure we can keep that going

We talked a lot about repairing cells

and repairing modules

repairing the battery

the actual physical hardware itself

from your experience

and the work that you're doing for the OEMs

and the battery manufacturers

how much of the repairs

and the work that you're doing

are actually battery issues

and how much are things like

I'm gonna say battery adjacent

so damage or corrosion to HV cables

or water ingress or things like that

or do you just deal with the batteries themselves?

No, we do see both

we do see other things

we don't see very much in terms of the cabling

and things like that

that does tend to be fairly secure

we've seen the odd one

with things like water ingress

that kind of thing

but generally speaking

the majority of issues that we are seeing

are battery related

either to do with the way it's been put together

so things being loose

or connectors coming loose

or being damaged

or with the actual battery chemistry itself

but again, like I said to you before

over 90% of the battery

even when we see faults is fine

and I think that's something to hold on to

is that there might be a fault

but it is only a very small proportion of the whole pack

Do you have stats about the percentage of issues

related to different battery chemistry?

Because there are a number out there

but the two main ones are your NMC and LFP

Do one of those...

We don't see a lot of...

So I hate the phrase digital twin

because it's not really right

but we have profiles for each different type of chemistry

that we deal with

because obviously they do behave differently

we can't compare them directly

although actually

I have to say we don't see a great deal of difference

in terms of the return rates

or the need for repair rates

between any one chemistry

it feels to us at the moment

and we've only had...

in terms of actually repairing batteries

on a production economic scale

we did a lot before

we've done a lot of small runs

but in terms of actually for production

we're only talking two and a half to three years worth of data

actually there's not a lot of difference

so I couldn't sit here and say to you

one chemistry is definitely better than the other

because we don't see a great deal of difference

in those sorts of rates

A flip side to that is you can't turn around

and say one chemistry is definitely worse than the others

No and it's true

and to be honest I wouldn't let that necessarily

concern me as a consumer

I think for me it's about

have you got a repair scheme

within your dealership or within your

the OEM group

that means if I have something wrong

you can deal with it

or you can point me to the place that can deal with it

because the last thing I want is to buy one

where I know I've got no hope of repairing it

because whilst it might only be

a small chance of it going wrong

you know the sort of half a percent

do you want to be that one person?

Definitely not

Absolutely

Now I want to talk a little bit more about

the actual repair ecosystem

because you mentioned it a number of times

on the discussion already

you don't deal with the actual drivers themselves

Joe

you're at a different end of the process

so if God forbid I have an issue with my

five-year-old EV

and I want it to be fixed

what's the process for getting it to you

or someone like you

what is that ecosystem

at the moment

the way it works is

because we are not in independent dealers at this point

the way it works currently

is you would go to that OEM

and say do you have a repair

a repairer

and they will normally process that for you

you will go via your local dealers portal

to us and that's how it will be affected

and it'll have to go through then

and say what we are now very much interested in

and trying to work towards

is proliferating that kind of technology

and that kind of repair system

it's two-fold really

in one you get that confidence up

and if we get the confidence up

and we help people to do it

we see more repairs

we see more business

that's the reality

but we also see more call coming back to us

because obviously we want the ones back

so that we can repair them

which means we've then got an offering to give back out

that's really important for everybody

because it keeps the whole flow going

but also it then means

if we get into places like independent dealers

if we have a system for doing that

then actually the EVing Park

automatically becomes bigger

because people are confident to buy one at second hand

they are confident to go out there

and change from what they're currently driving

to a new type of technology

and that's important for all of us

Oh, 100%

100%

going back to earlier on

if we say a battery is at

75% state of health

does that mean that every cell in that battery

is at 75% state of health

or does that mean that 25% of the cells

in that battery are at zero state of health

and the rest are at 100

or does it sort of mix and match?

No, typically

and again it will depend a little bit

on the tests that you do

okay, so if you're looking at the BMS

it will give you an overall

so that would be a kind of effectively average

so I might have only 100%

you're unlikely to have any zero

but it'll be a sort of average

if you're running a test like we run

then that will be the worst performing cells

in the battery

because you actually

because they are wired in series

and then in parallel

your overall battery performance

is typically at the lowest performing member

Right

and that will be the lowest performing cell or module

so that would be what we would report

Let's move on to skills and skills deficit

we've talked a little bit about this already

do we have enough people

with the right skills and equipment

in this country

to be able to do

the kind of things

that you and your organisation are doing?

Well, the simple answer is no

that's the reality

so things are getting better

in the sense that there is

starting to be good technician qualifications

for people to remove batteries

to make them safe

to replace batteries

in terms of actually

the proliferation of the technology

and the skills

to be able to repair them

then no there isn't

it is that simple

there are only one or two players in the market

and they are not in all places

and it takes us a while

to be able to train people

to be able to get our technology over there

we're privately owned

so that automatically limits a little bit

what you can do in terms of

you know

where are we going to

find the money for to invest

so we typically partner

and we partner with OEMs

because that makes sense for us

and then we have the backing

and it gives them the infrastructure they need

but it gives us that

level of security if you like

but no there are very few players

in the repair market

and that's the real shame

that said

I do think that it will come

you know we're not the only people looking at this

we have a really good solution here and now

we want to be out there and telling people

there will be others

so people are already there in the market

so we do know it can be done

the biggest issue is making sure that what's done

is done competently

because that again to me is about confidence

you know and we are really proud to say

that of all the ones that we have repaired

we haven't had any warranty claims

on those ones that we have repaired

so we know everything we put out is good

good

you know

I can't say that about everybody because I don't know

but we have to get to the point where we have

that level of technology for everybody

when it comes to upskilling people

there are two ways of doing this

and you've already mentioned one which is

you bring people into your organisation

you train them internally

you give them all the skills that they need

and that's absolutely fine

and that's what a lot of companies do

but of course you've then got the other aspect of this

which is there needs to be an education aspect

at technical colleges

or for younger people

to actually learn that kind of skills and experience

so that when they come to you

they have a level of knowledge

a base level that you can build on

are you doing any work to try and

improve the educational level

for people before they come into your organisation

so we're partnering with a couple of local colleges

and one UTC near us

to try and get that started

but it is in its infancy

and for us this is about

how do we start that again

we are a relatively small organisation

there is about $500 in total

and not all doing EV

it would be unfair of me to say we aren't

yes so we're partnering with local ones

but we do need a more general thing

but again this to me comes down to that recognition

that this is what we need to do

so what I see coming out in current legislation

what I see coming out from the government

and even when we are talking about the path to net zero

it's all about recycling

it's not about repair

it's that middle part of reuse and repair

is very at the moment undervalued and underseen

and until we make that step change

you know I spend a lot of time

talking to people lobbying for it

because I am you know very very passionate

that this is what we need to do

I really do think that

but until we get to that point

you only get pockets of recognition

so because we take apprentices

because we take workplace once

because we engage with our local UTCs

our local colleges

we have some leverage and some say with what they do

and they can see that there's a need

and they can start to help us develop that

but it's getting it to the more wide and mainstream

that's the really big challenge

and that will come I think a little from OEMs

because they are engaged

but again we do I'm afraid still from some OEMs

see the abapfies won't ever fail

and if they do we don't want anybody to know

and the reality is you know like it or not

they will

but things do that's okay

you know I tell all my apprentices

the only people who don't make mistakes

are the ones who aren't doing anything

and it's no different with batteries

and with cars is it

the ones that don't fail

the ones in the garage

we've come to the end of our time

Sarah is there anything else you want to say

on this topic before we finish

the only thing for me here

is that to replace an EV battery

before it needs to be replaced

so in other words by not repairing it

by not keeping going for the longest

is madness

it's madness in terms of cost

it's madness in terms of the environment

repairs are a fraction

a fraction less than five percent

of the overall impact of a battery

in in environmental sense

it makes no sense not to do it

and the more I can get the message out

there the more people who know about it

the more we move towards that the better for me

Oh sorry Ridley

I appreciate your time

thank you very much for coming on the show

no thank you Gary

it's been an absolute pleasure

a couple of takeaways from this

battery issues and problems

will occur with some electric vehicles

and that's one reason manufacturers

provide warranties to help new owners deal with it

the figure that Sarah quoted was about a half a percent

which is slightly higher than the equivalent

for internal combustion engine vehicles

but as Sarah said

they've had a hundred years to sort out the tech

so you'd expect the engines to be in a much better state

than batteries at this point

but what Sarah was at pains to point out

is that just because a battery pack has a problem

it doesn't mean that the battery needs to be scrapped

and replaced at huge cost to the owner

with the work that Sarah and Autocraft Solutions do

it's now possible to bring the car in

identify which part of the battery has the issue

isolate it replace it and send it back out

as new that's both quicker

and cheaper than replacing it with a brand new battery

the other thing that's apparent from this discussion

is that there is at present a bit of a tendency

to take faulty batteries out

and send them straight to recycling

whilst there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that

it does miss out on a great deal of useful life

where a battery which is no longer suitable for use in an EV

can go on to home storage or as Sarah suggested

battery storage for EV chargers for example

which could be trickle charge from low voltage grid connections

but still used to rapid charge EVs

now I don't know about you

but I thought this was a fantastic discussion

and I love Sarah's duty-free cigarettes analogy

to explain cells modules and packs

it was brilliant

so having listened to this

do battery issues still loom large for you

as potential EV owners

or are you an existing EV owner

who's approaching the end of your EV's battery warranty

do you feel concerned

I certainly feel a lot more relaxed

about the state of the battery in the vehicle

that I just bought

so let me know

in 4dvmusings.com

it's time for a cool EV or renewable thing to share with you listeners

at keeping with the battery theme

I want to talk about a new battery install

for energy storage

constructions recently started on the 100 megawatt

meredin

the 100 megawatt meredin big battery

in western Australia

which is set to finish in October 2026

this battery is going to help stabilize the power grid

and support clean energy in the wheat belt

and eastern goldfield regions

the project will create jobs

and provide benefits to the local community during its operation

now this battery joins nearly 500 megawatts worth of

mostly 4-hour battery storage operating in the southwest interconnected system

since 2023

and ahead of a further 728 megawatts of committed storage

that's expected to be brought online

in the next 18 months

batteries for the wind right

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I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show

it was put together this week with the help of

Sarah Dr. Sarah Ridley

and Pete Mooney

many thanks to them for the help

if you have any thoughts comments criticisms

or other general messages to pass on to me

I can be reached at info at EVmusings.com

on the socials I'm on blue sky at evmusings.beastky.social

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drop a review in iTunes please it really helps me out

thanks

if you reach this part of the podcast and are still listening

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why not let me know you've got this point by messaging me

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hashtag if you know you know nothing else

thanks as always to bucko found Simon

you know he posted an Instagram reel from a museum he went to in Italy recently

it was devoted to household appliances through the ages

he was particularly interested in the small device

that was an apparent forerunner to the modern day vacuum

but manual of course

he said

so this is one of those really interesting things

it's a little bit like Triggers Brew

thanks for listening

bye

you

About this episode

Exploring the realities of EV battery repairs, this episode features Dr. Sarah Ridley from Autocraft Solutions discussing battery longevity, common issues, and repair processes. They debunk myths about battery life, explain the difference between cells, modules, and packs, and highlight the importance of repair over premature replacement. The conversation also covers battery health checks, the challenges of battery repair skills and infrastructure, and the environmental benefits of extending battery life. Practical insights into the repair ecosystem and the future of EV battery maintenance make this a detailed dive into a key concern for EV owners.

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Original notes

In this episode, Gary Comerford interviews Sara Ridley, Engineering and Quality Director at Autocraft Solutions, about the remanufacturing and repair of electric vehicle batteries.

They discuss the importance of battery health, common misconceptions about EV batteries, and the challenges faced in the repair ecosystem. Sara emphasizes the need for education and skills development in the EV repair industry, highlighting the environmental benefits of repairing rather than replacing batteries.

The conversation also touches on the future of battery technology and the importance of building a robust repair ecosystem to support the growing EV market.

Guest Details:

Sara Ridley - Dr Sara Ridley is the Engineering & Quality Director of Autocraft Solutions Group. She has worked in remanufacturing for more than 20 years and is passionate about the ecological and economic benefits of remanufacturing. Much of her focus is on improving processes and controls. Sara was awarded an Industrial Fellowship for her doctoral research from the Royal Commission for the Exhibition of 1851 whilst working for Caterpillar Remanufacturing. Her research has been published in both remanufacturing and production journals, and she has received international awards for her academic papers. She joined Autocraft in 2018 as they recognised the need to expand remanufacturing from internal combustion engines into alternative powertrains, and Sara has been part of the team turning this ambition into reality working within the business to recognise the huge potential: in environmental terms, but also in terms of improving the end user experience.

Sara's Website

Sara on YouTube

The EV Musings Podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the go-to app for EV drivers, helping you find and pay for public charging with confidence.

Links in the show notes: