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264 - The Battery Issue Episode
264 - The Battery Issue Episode
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About this episode
Exploring the realities of EV battery repairs, this episode features Dr. Sarah Ridley from Autocraft Solutions discussing battery longevity, common issues, and repair processes. They debunk myths about battery life, explain the difference between cells, modules, and packs, and highlight the importance of repair over premature replacement. The conversation also covers battery health checks, the challenges of battery repair skills and infrastructure, and the environmental benefits of extending battery life. Practical insights into the repair ecosystem and the future of EV battery maintenance make this a detailed dive into a key concern for EV owners.
Topics:
ev battery repairs
battery longevity
battery health checks
cell and module replacement
battery management systems
repair vs replacement
environmental impact
skills and training
repair ecosystem
battery chemistry
In this episode, Gary Comerford interviews Sara Ridley, Engineering and Quality Director at Autocraft Solutions, about the remanufacturing and repair of electric vehicle batteries.
They discuss the importance of battery health, common misconceptions about EV batteries, and the challenges faced in the repair ecosystem. Sara emphasizes the need for education and skills development in the EV repair industry, highlighting the environmental benefits of repairing rather than replacing batteries.
The conversation also touches on the future of battery technology and the importance of building a robust repair ecosystem to support the growing EV market.
Guest Details:
Sara Ridley - Dr Sara Ridley is the Engineering & Quality Director of Autocraft Solutions Group. She has worked in remanufacturing for more than 20 years and is passionate about the ecological and economic benefits of remanufacturing. Much of her focus is on improving processes and controls. Sara was awarded an Industrial Fellowship for her doctoral research from the Royal Commission for the Exhibition of 1851 whilst working for Caterpillar Remanufacturing. Her research has been published in both remanufacturing and production journals, and she has received international awards for her academic papers. She joined Autocraft in 2018 as they recognised the need to expand remanufacturing from internal combustion engines into alternative powertrains, and Sara has been part of the team turning this ambition into reality working within the business to recognise the huge potential: in environmental terms, but also in terms of improving the end user experience.
The EV Musings Podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the go-to app for EV drivers, helping you find and pay for public charging with confidence.
Links in the show notes:
- Construction starts on Merredin Battery Energy Storage System | Western Australian Government - Cool Thing
Episode produced by Arran Sheppard at Urban Podcasts: https://www.urbanpodcasts.co.uk
(C) 2019-2026 Gary Comerford
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Kia EV6
"...om episode 150 where he came on to chat about his EV6 and what it was like to live with as a vehicle. N..."
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Tesla Model
"...packs, especially some of the earlier ones on the Tesla Model S etc. were very expensive if you had to replace ..."
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Tesla Model 3S
"...hey're integrated into the chassis on some of the model 3s and Model Ys is that an issue?"
Select text to request an explanation
Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 264 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles
and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners.
And on the show today, we'll be looking at EV battery repairs.
This segment of the podcast is sponsored by ZAPMAP, the go-to app for EV drivers helping
you find and pay for public charging with confidence.
Now our main topic of discussion today is battery repairs.
Long time listeners will possibly remember Pete Mooney from episode 150 where he came
on to chat about his EV6 and what it was like to live with as a vehicle.
Now that was way back in 2022, since then he's been merrily putting the miles
on to the point where he's done around 100,000 of them at the moment.
Now that's pretty impressive for any car but it's important in the big scheme of things
for electric cars because that's the point at which battery warranties tend to expire.
Usually it's 8 years or 100,000 miles whichever comes first.
Naturally, Pete's a little worried about what happens now.
But remember, a warranty isn't a lifespan indicator, it's a time limit for covered repairs.
All cars have warranties from new, most are in the 3-5 year range covering parts and
often labour for things that go wrong that are not wear and tear.
Kia and Hyundai are something of an exception with the 7 year parts and labour warranty
covering everything on the car.
So let me ask you, when was the last time you had a car that was out of warranty and were
really concerned about it?
Well the answer, especially if you don't buy brand new cars, is probably rarely.
You know these are cars and things go wrong.
If they're covered, somebody else pays to replace them and if not, you pay to replace.
Cam belts, timing belts, cylinder heads, fuel injectors, water pumps etc.
But when it comes to electric vehicles, the big thing that most people worry about and
that most anti-EV people pontificate about is the battery.
And the reason is that battery packs, especially some of the earlier ones on the Tesla Model
S etc. were very expensive if you had to replace them yourself.
As they are the main part of the EV, it stands to reason that people are going
to be concerned about them and how long they last.
So today we're looking at batteries.
What sort of issues and errors can occur?
How often do errors crop up?
And does every battery issue mean a complete replacement of the battery unit?
Now I could talk at great length about this and do lots and lots of research in in-depth
analysis.
But you know me, I'm basically lazy so I thought the easiest thing to do would
be to get somebody on who actually knows what they're talking about and ask them
the questions instead.
Hello, I'm Sara Ridley.
I work for Autocraft Solutions Group and I'm the Engineering and Quality Director
there.
We're engine remanufacturers and battery remanufacturers for EV vehicles.
What's your EV story?
How did Dr Sara Ridley come to the world of electric vehicles?
I assume we drive electric.
I drive a hybrid actually at the moment.
But yes, well I started off with engines as most people do and I started off in remanufacturing.
So remanufacturing basically takes things at the end of their lives and gives them
new lives.
And we've been doing that with conventional engines for years and years and years.
And it's a huge passion of mine because things come in broken and they go out completely useful
again and that's the standard they should be.
And we realised probably 10 years ago that EVs were starting to come in and we started
very slowly with a few government programmes like the Faraday Challenge with very small
battery packs.
But it's snowballed and we realised probably about five years ago that actually if the
world is transitioning to EV they're going to need solutions for them because as with
all things the second hand market is what drives everything and that's having confidence
that what you have can be as easily repaired, as easily looked after, as easily gives you
the same sort of life drives the second hand market which drives the new market which
helps us to transition.
And I think we all agree that transitioning to EV is the most important thing we can
do at the moment for the planet.
It might not be perfect forever but that's really good now.
So let's talk a little bit about EV batteries.
Let's start by can you address the big bit of misinformation that a lot of non-EV
drivers and some EV drivers have probably heard which is your EV battery is the same
as your iPhone it lasted about three years before being useless.
So if someone says that to you how do you tend to respond?
In the sense that it uses the same technology I understand where they're
coming from.
The reality is that in most people's experience an EV battery will last
without much need for any kind of intervention for about eight years.
That's this widely published statistics on that.
Equally, we know that at the moment the failure rate is slightly higher.
It's about half a percent.
So that's higher than you would get with internal combustion engines.
But realistically, they've been down for a hundred more years.
So we would expect them to be more stable.
However, we do know that in the vast majority of cases where batteries
do start to fail a bit earlier, you can do something about it.
You can repair them.
You can get proper testing.
You can get a proper repair.
And it will carry on lasting and the bonus of an EV battery in many ways
actually over an iPhone battery.
And that's largely about economics is if you look at your phone battery,
it's very tiny uses the same technology, but very tiny.
And it's a battery, a cell normally.
However, an EV battery is made up of lots of cells and modules,
and they can be individually replaced in many instances.
And that gives you a much longer life and a much more
economical state of repair.
So, yes, there are failures, but there are failures in every kind of transportation.
They're not massive.
It's unlucky if you get one.
I wouldn't argue that one, but you can do a lot about them.
So for me, that's not a barrier.
I'm going to come on a little bit about the failure rate in a second,
but just a little bit of anecdote.
I've had electric vehicles for seven or eight years now.
They've all been or at least from you, other than the one I'm currently in,
which I picked up a couple of weeks ago, and that's a used electric vehicle.
It's not saying pie mileage, but it's 55,000 miles already with,
and it's about five years old.
But of course, the first thing I did when I went to buy it
is I got a battery health check and it came out at 92%,
which I'm quite comfortable with that.
Ken, are you able to talk a little bit about battery health checks?
How useful are they?
How accurate can they be?
The reality is it does depend on the technology used to do the check.
So we have found in our experience that the simple checks
that are done through the battery management system
often are not overly accurate.
That's partly because they're a snapshot in time.
So a lot of battery checks are effectively static checks.
It tells you what the health of your battery is at that point.
What it doesn't tell you is how your battery reacts
over a period of events, so charging and discharging cycles.
So what we would call active testing rather than passive testing.
And that's really important because that sets the profile
for how well it will hold the charge.
See, it might have been very well charged
and holding at that point,
but actually if it's been overly used,
so we find that very fast charging and discharging,
so rapid charging and discharging
affect the health of the battery over a period of time.
So after five years,
yours has obviously been very well looked after
if it's got 92% state of health, that's really good.
But some of them actually degrade further than that.
So a very good test can not only tell you
what your state of health is now,
but it will also predict what's likely to fail
over a relatively short period of time.
And that's really useful, particularly with a secondhand car
because it gives you an idea about what sort of longevity
you're gonna get, where your range is like to be.
And also, if you have those bits repaired,
where your range would be.
So that's really, really important.
So there are some quite superficial checks.
That would give you a snapshot,
but we would always recommend an active test
because that will give you a much more comprehensive picture.
Would you feel comfortable naming the kind of companies
that provide the active tests that you're talking about?
I can't honestly sit here and recommend one.
We don't deal directly with the general public
at this point.
We work through partners, mostly OEM partners,
both battery and vehicle OEMs.
However, we have found that most of the tests
that we have tried are not particularly comprehensive.
So I couldn't honestly sit here and say to you,
I could definitely recommend one.
And I really don't want to mislead you.
Fair enough.
One of the things that,
I don't know whether it's anecdotal or not,
is that with, when we're looking at battery tests,
one of the things that can quote unquote skew
the state of health is that there are the buffers
at the top and the bottom of a battery to protect it.
There are certain vehicles
which will sort of release a little bit of that buffer
as the degradation occurs.
So it gives a, not necessarily a false reading,
but one that may not be as accurate as it could be.
Is that an accurate statement?
Yes, it is.
We do know that there are some manufacturers
that protect their batteries.
And what I would say to you though,
is that the most efficient way
and the most way to make, for it to last longer
is to keep your battery somewhere between about 35%
and about 70% charged at any one time.
And that's honestly exactly the same for your phone.
Charging it all the way up
and discharging it virtually all the way down
and not healthy for the battery.
So part of that will be to protect your battery health
and keep it lasting as long as possible.
So yes, it is slightly slewed,
but the reality is that we can accurately check
where a battery should be
against the amount of miles it's done in its age.
So we understand where that level should be.
And actually all that the manufacturer is doing
by releasing some at either end of that standard
is protecting you
and keeping your battery lasting for a lot longer.
A big fear that a lot of people have,
particularly ones who don't drive electric
or are brand new to electric
is that their EV will stop one day
because the battery has died.
Now I'm holding up for the people
who are listening and not watching.
I'm holding up a standard nine volt square battery,
which I've been using these for decades.
I've never had one of these, quote unquote, die on me.
I've had one where it's run out of charge.
I've had one where I've left it in a device
and it's crusted over
and corroded at the top and stopped working.
But I've never actually had the battery itself die.
So when somebody says, oh, well, my EV battery has died,
what exactly are they talking about?
What's the actual mechanism that's occurring there?
So there are two things.
So one it will have in the same way
as a conventionally powered vehicle
will have effectively a limp mode.
So you're getting close, so it will restrict you
and that won't allow you to put your foot down
and go really fast and rapidly to charge it.
And the idea is it's to get you
to a safe location to recharge.
So that's technology that's not actually in the battery
but in the management system.
And that's the same in any management system.
You'll have that in any kind of vehicle.
Typically, it's very unusual for a whole pack to fail
but typically if it does,
it's likely to be something like a broken connection.
So they tend to be wired in series and in parallel.
So it's more likely to be a mechanical fault
than a battery fault
in terms of the actual reaction of the battery.
We very, very rarely see one.
I can't say that there's never been one.
We do see occasional faults
in terms of the connections and things like that
as well as just with an EV battery
because as you know, it's a chemical reaction
from the moment it's made.
And whilst they are made in the same place
at the same time, it's like anything else.
There is variation.
So you get variation in the way they react.
Typically, they're the biggest amount of failures.
You do sometimes see them in the connections
and things like that.
But we don't see very many of those.
So typically batteries are very well made.
We've talked about the buffer and the bottom buffer.
Have we ever had instances
or are you ever aware of instances
where people have managed to run that buffer solo
that it has physically got to the point
where they've run so much charge out,
there's no buffer left
and it has destroyed the battery
from that point of view?
We've never come across an instance of that, no.
Not with our customers.
Fair enough.
In reality, I know you quoted a stat a little bit earlier
but in reality, how often should an error or fault mean
that a brand new battery is required
versus a change of a cell or a bit of a pack
or the BMS or something other than the actual battery itself?
So this is one of those really interesting things.
It's a little bit like Triggers Brew.
You can replace the handle,
you can place the head and you can keep it going.
And in theory, an EV pack is exactly the same.
So you can replace anything in it multiple times.
Now we know in practice that once it gets below
and this does vary a bit with manufacturer
but about 75% of its overall ability to hold a charge
and to deliver that properly,
then it typically isn't suitable for EV use.
So for a vehicle, we would want it to be above that
and say it does vary slightly to manufacturer
but that's a rule of thumb I would say about there.
Realistically, you can replace any of those parts
all the way up to there
but at that point it's still got a very useful life
and that useful life can be as secondary storage,
it can be to help balance the grid,
we can even use them to power charging stations
because you trickle charge the battery pack
which gives you a quicker charge
and then it trickle charges back again
or you can do it by things like solar panels,
wind power, anything like that.
So in theory, you wouldn't need a new pack
in that vehicle until you got down below that.
Now we do know that packs are replaced more often
and sometimes that's because of the availability of repair
and the availability of packs
and part of that is because the technology
is growing so rapidly that chemistry changes
and so it's literally about how do we use those
to make sure we can continue with those batteries
and keep those batteries going?
You know, you said your car,
the one that you're currently driving
is about five years old.
I would be willing to bet that the chemistry
has moved on in the same model of vehicle considerably
and so it's, for me, the only thing that's a barrier
to us being able to repair that
is where do we get the replacement cells or modules
because typically that's what it is and we harvest them.
So what we've found over our experience
is that 92% roughly, 92 to 94% of any failed pack
is fine, really good, absolutely fit for use
and it's only one or two modules or cells
that's the problem.
Now talk about modules or cells
because that comes down to pack architecture.
We can do the testing to cell level,
we can replace at cell level,
but if the pack architecture means
we have to take a whole module, not a cell
because we'll break it otherwise,
then you have to change a module.
So what we actually do is we harvest the 92% that are good.
We test them, we grade them, we put them on the shelf
and then we can use those to repair and replace other packs
which means that we can keep them going for a lot longer
and that's really, really important.
I worry very greatly
that we're leaping straight towards recycling.
Now don't get me wrong, recycling is brilliant,
we all recycle and it's the right thing to do
but it's premature recycling in terms of packs
because they can have so much more life.
The EV process for building one
means that all of the damage to the environment
is upfront, all of the emissions,
all of those things are upfront.
Now we know by the time it gets to about
age yours isn't about that sort of mileage,
it's paid off its debt, it becomes neutral
but if we can then extend it for another five to eight years
actually it becomes positive
and that's the really big thing
and if we do it with harvested modules
it becomes even more positive
and that's how we're gonna get towards that whole
carbon neutral non-damaging thing for me.
So it's about maintaining that level of change.
So many questions have come out of that
which I don't know that's fine.
We had Stephen Williams who works
with the EV insurance industry on the podcast last season
and he was talking about the fact
that one of the reasons why EV premiums are so high
is because there are, and you touched on it there,
is that there are many repairs who,
they look at a battery,
they see there's an issue with the battery
and they don't want to repair it,
they want to replace it.
So of course rather than having to take out a cell
or a module and whatever that cost is gonna be
they're gonna say, no,
we're gonna take out the whole battery
and replace with a brand new one.
How much of that do you believe is a result of the fact
that it's something completely unknown
and it's easier to do that versus,
well actually there's an education aspect.
There's companies like yourself that need to be out there
working with the insurance companies and saying,
look, we can do quote unquote cheaper repairs
at the cell or the module level
rather than doing a full battery replacement.
I think actually it's a bit of both.
Now, I think that the education's getting better,
we're getting more and more technicians qualified
to remove batteries and do those things
but actual repair is quite an infancy.
There aren't that many companies doing it
and it's about people knowing about it.
We are starting to get some interest from insurers
because we do understand that part of it's fear
of the unknown, they are high voltage,
they are dangerous.
Not where they're in a vehicle
but when they are taken out
or when their lids come off,
they are very dangerous.
So the first thing we do when we get a pack in
is we put it through our initial testing
which not only checks to see,
is it damaged in any way
but brings it down to a safe state of charge.
So roughly 20%, 20, 20, 30%.
Again, it slightly depends on the size of the battery
and things like that, but we bring it down
and that's so we know that it's a safe point.
You can't really bring it down to zero
because chemical reaction doesn't just stop
but what we have to do is bring it down to where it's safe
and we can actually do that by going out
so we have mobile units that can go out
and make batteries safe
and that's really important for us
because when we're transporting them around,
once you take it out of the car, it becomes dangerous goods
and you have to be really careful about transporting it
and that, to be honest, and that adds to the cost.
When you think for an average EV,
the cost of the battery is about 40%
and the cost of the vehicle,
replacing it's very, very expensive.
So I think the lack of people
who are qualified to deal with them,
the lack of awareness that they can be repaired
and that actually repairs that can be very cost effective.
It varies depending on what's needed
but certainly up to about 50% of the cost of a pack
you can save if not a little more.
I'd say that it does vary a lot depending on what's wrong.
I couldn't give you an absolute figure
and it also depends a little bit on the architecture of the pack.
We know with some packs they are studied with resin
so we would call it potted or glue in some way.
That makes it very difficult for them to be changed out
but a lot of packs are made on a modular level
and on a cell level
and so providing they can be replaced,
they can be repaired really easily, they really can
and I think that that's the thing here is
if we can get the message out there,
if we can work with enough people to say
you can repair this, it's cost effective,
you could get an independent test done
that will give you a good idea of where it is
because let's be honest,
I've been in automotive for a lot of years now
and I can go out and I can look at a second hand
internally combustion engine powered car
with reasonable certainty.
I can drive it, I was out with my son at the weekend
looking at some with one of my sons
because he wants a new car
and we were looking at some second hand cars
and I can be really fairly certain.
I'm working an EV, I could get into an EV car
at a dealers and I wouldn't know, I really wouldn't
because there's nothing to see, there's nothing to hear.
You need a proper check
and I think if we can get all those things in place
and not just in terms of the general public
but in terms of dealers, independent garages, insurers,
actually it starts to become a real snowball
and that'll help everybody,
it really does help it going forward.
Now the other thing that you mentioned earlier on
was the concept of harvesting,
so taking actually that's probably not 100%
taking a battery.
We're just nagging it, we literally take it apart.
Okay and then you'll take out the cells
and the modules that are good and you'll trash the rest.
Now you did also mention that potentially
the chemistry of the battery that's in my vehicle
will not necessarily be the same
of the chemistry in the battery of the same vehicle
that is brand new.
What's just, I think I know the answer
but I'll ask the question anyway.
Could you take harvested batteries, cells from a new battery
and put them in and replace a fraction of the cells
in my battery even though the chemistry is slightly different?
No, it's not generally, we wouldn't generally do that.
That's not really safe.
The battery is set up to work in a very specific way
and it's managed in a very specific way.
In the same way as I couldn't put a brand new module
or cell of the same chemistry into a battery pack
without first balancing it to the profile of the pack
because what you actually do is you create an imbalance
and that's where you get things like damage the packs
from things like thermal runaway, you create an imbalance.
So all we do, we try to keep it
that as balanced as possible, that makes it more efficient.
It also makes it safer for everybody.
Can you go through a little bit
the actual testing process that you go through?
Why is it not possible or why is it not just as simple
as looking at the BMS and saying, right,
that's what the BMS says the issue is,
therefore that's what the issue is.
Why is it a little bit more complex than that?
Because I always stick them as living organisms
because of the chemical reaction
because that's essentially what they are.
They are a dynamic.
What the state of house does if you plug into the BMS
is it gives you a, this is what I'm doing now.
Typically that's done when it's static,
it's been sat for a while,
it's in a sort of garage type location and you plug in
and it will tell you what's happening now
which is that they are just resting
and ticking over with their chemical reactions.
Now it might well tell you that it's only at 90%
or it's at whatever percent
but it won't actually give you a whole picture
of how it behaves.
So when you excite those cells
which you do when you are discharging
or when you're charging
they behave very differently
and what we need to understand
is what's the lowest performing of those cells
because that's where your actual overall performance will be.
When it's resting and sat
you'll get an overall picture of the whole of the battery.
Once you start to excite those cells
and once you start to charge and discharge them
and put them through those cycles
what you actually see is individually what are they doing
and when you can see individually what they're doing
you can understand what the actual overall picture is.
You can also see if there are any disconnections effectively
so if there is a connector issue
you'll be able to see that
because there'll be a part of it that isn't performing as well
and you'll be able to spot that
and you can also see not only where they are currently
but where they're moving to and from
and that's really important again
for the overall health of the life.
If you think about it as a sort of a range
so it will sit within that range
but once you start to discharge
it will move between that.
What you want to understand is are they all the same
or have you got one that's down here?
Because if you've got one that's down here
that's what will affect the overall operation of the pack
as opposed to its resting state.
Now a lot of people who will either be watching this
or listening to this will have potentially researched on YouTube
and they will have seen people like Jonathan Porterfield
and Andrew Tild plug in ODB connectors
into the vehicle
and using something like leaf spy or equivalent
to look at the state of the cells.
Is it as simple as that?
Is that what you're talking about
or is it something sort of a level above that?
So we do that in part as well
but we have other tests as well that we do
and they're designed to understand
not only whether we've got that going
but whether we can see any lithium that's shifting
so whether we're gonna get any plating
in terms of anodes of cathodes
whether we can see any degradation
and things like that.
There's a whole suite of testing that we do
which is all patented
because it runs in a specific way
to give us a comprehensive report.
So some of the tests are out there
some of the bits of testing that we do
you can see in other places
but the overall suite and the way we run it
is actually what gives us the comprehensive view of it.
Okay, now I realize we've been talking for 25 minutes
that we've talked about cells and modules and batteries
we haven't actually done a definition of
what's the cell, what's the module
and how does that put together?
Can you give us the battery 101 on that please?
Well, I always think of it
and this is a really old fashioned view
but I'm gonna tell you anyway
it's probably to do with my ages
when you go into an airport and into duty free
certainly before nowadays
I think they're all curtained away
you see cartons of cigarettes to bring home
sort of in a shrink wrapped into packs
so if you think about one of those cartons
as an EV battery
each one of those packs inside it
is essentially a module
and each of the cigarettes inside the pack
is a cell.
Now, that's the easiest
I always think that's a really easy way of visualizing it
because I think we've all seen them in, you know
sometimes they are arranged just like that
so there are cells inside the modules
the modules are then built into the battery pack
that battery pack is then built into the vehicle
that way, if they are welded or attached mechanically
in some way to each module
you can replace the cell level
you can see what's happening at cell level
you can place it cell level
or if they are plated
so in other words glued in in some form with resin
or with the glue of some kind
you might have to replace the whole module
but typically you could have up to 30 or 40 of those in a pack
so it's only a portion of the pack
that's being changed at any one time
we are seeing more and more packs
where it is just cells into the whole pack itself
those ones, it depends again
is it put in with resin
because they're much more difficult to do
without breaking all the architecture around them
or is there a weld or a mechanical fixing in some way
those ones again, relatively easy to change
Is cell replacement or module replacement possible
on all electric vehicles?
For instance, I know that Tesla used batteries
as they're integrated into the chassis
on some of the model 3s and Model Ys
is that an issue?
Yes, it can be
so the way we work with a lot of our OEMs
is it works in exactly the same way
as if you take your car to the dealer
and you need a new wind mirror
the dealer orders one, one gets delivered
they change it out
and they do whatever they need to do
with the one they've taken off
so typically what will happen with our OEM customers
is their dealers will go onto their portal
they'll say I have this battery
and they'll do it by serial number
because we know all about it
and that links into our portal
they will order one of the same sort of battery
we will dispatch that to them
so it will be the same state of health
the same chemistry, the same battery type
again, by serial number
so we have a traceability
all the way through of everything that happens
including by serial number
the bits we take out and replace
so what goes in and what goes out
and what happens to it afterwards
of each of those cells or modules
we will send that out to them
with the packaging
and all the paperwork for the old battery
they'll replace it
they'll give us back the old one
we'll repair that and put that back on the shell
so that makes it a really slick process
now, where you've got things
that are built into the chassis
depending on again
and it does depend on how it's been put onto the chassis
yes, it could be repaired
the problem is I need the whole vehicle
because we've got to basically dismantle it
in order to get to it
and that is the problem
so one of the things we work very closely
with our vehicle OEM manufacturers
on how they are developing their new vehicles
because as an EV driver
the last thing you want to do
is have to give up your entire vehicle for
quite a while to have somebody dismantle it completely
in order to get to the chassis and to the pack
whereas some of the more easily repaired ones
and certainly with some of Tesla's riding rules
you remove the whole battery pack
you replace the whole battery pack
again, it can be with a repaired one
doesn't have to be a brand new one
but one that works in the same way
that's the same age and the same mileage
we balance all that out
and then it's a much sick process
the garage maybe only has it for a day or two
which is no real different for you having a vehicle
change or a part change
sorry, on a conventional vehicle
and there is presumably a cost implication
for taking something in and having to take the whole vehicle
apart to get the back of the box
I mean, and this is the problem
is that then makes it much more expensive
it also, and I do think this is really important
for me this is really important
as a, I don't have skin in the game
direct to customers
because we don't deal directly with customers
you know, the end users
so for me it's not
I've got no real skin in the game of that
but the reality for me is
if we don't allow independent garages
as well as dealers to be able to do these things
then there's an awful lot of people who will be disinventurized
and we can't afford to do that
we really can't
you know, if you take your always
you know, if you change your car in three years
you take it to the main dealers
to have the servicing done
then actually probably it's not such a big deal
it'll be very expensive
but it's not such a big deal
but if like the majority of people
you don't, you buy a second hard car
you take it to an independent garage to do that
actually we're disinfanturizing all of those people
because what we're saying is
only Tesla people in this case
or only that OEMs people could do it
only their dealers
it's gonna cost an awful lot of money
and where I look at a second hand one
I'd be thinking if I buy that
I could be opening myself to a world of pain
and the reality is that
most people don't buy a new car every year
most people want to be responsible environmentally
they want things to be really
you know, they wanna be doing the right thing
and we're not allowing them to
unless we open that up
so for me that the way we build our EV vehicles
is hugely important
and that's why we work both with our battery OEM customers
and with our vehicle OEM customers
to try and make sure we can keep that going
We talked a lot about repairing cells
and repairing modules
repairing the battery
the actual physical hardware itself
from your experience
and the work that you're doing for the OEMs
and the battery manufacturers
how much of the repairs
and the work that you're doing
are actually battery issues
and how much are things like
I'm gonna say battery adjacent
so damage or corrosion to HV cables
or water ingress or things like that
or do you just deal with the batteries themselves?
No, we do see both
we do see other things
we don't see very much in terms of the cabling
and things like that
that does tend to be fairly secure
we've seen the odd one
with things like water ingress
that kind of thing
but generally speaking
the majority of issues that we are seeing
are battery related
either to do with the way it's been put together
so things being loose
or connectors coming loose
or being damaged
or with the actual battery chemistry itself
but again, like I said to you before
over 90% of the battery
even when we see faults is fine
and I think that's something to hold on to
is that there might be a fault
but it is only a very small proportion of the whole pack
Do you have stats about the percentage of issues
related to different battery chemistry?
Because there are a number out there
but the two main ones are your NMC and LFP
Do one of those...
We don't see a lot of...
So I hate the phrase digital twin
because it's not really right
but we have profiles for each different type of chemistry
that we deal with
because obviously they do behave differently
we can't compare them directly
although actually
I have to say we don't see a great deal of difference
in terms of the return rates
or the need for repair rates
between any one chemistry
it feels to us at the moment
and we've only had...
in terms of actually repairing batteries
on a production economic scale
we did a lot before
we've done a lot of small runs
but in terms of actually for production
we're only talking two and a half to three years worth of data
actually there's not a lot of difference
so I couldn't sit here and say to you
one chemistry is definitely better than the other
because we don't see a great deal of difference
in those sorts of rates
A flip side to that is you can't turn around
and say one chemistry is definitely worse than the others
No and it's true
and to be honest I wouldn't let that necessarily
concern me as a consumer
I think for me it's about
have you got a repair scheme
within your dealership or within your
the OEM group
that means if I have something wrong
you can deal with it
or you can point me to the place that can deal with it
because the last thing I want is to buy one
where I know I've got no hope of repairing it
because whilst it might only be
a small chance of it going wrong
you know the sort of half a percent
do you want to be that one person?
Definitely not
Absolutely
Now I want to talk a little bit more about
the actual repair ecosystem
because you mentioned it a number of times
on the discussion already
you don't deal with the actual drivers themselves
Joe
you're at a different end of the process
so if God forbid I have an issue with my
five-year-old EV
and I want it to be fixed
what's the process for getting it to you
or someone like you
what is that ecosystem
at the moment
the way it works is
because we are not in independent dealers at this point
the way it works currently
is you would go to that OEM
and say do you have a repair
a repairer
and they will normally process that for you
you will go via your local dealers portal
to us and that's how it will be affected
and it'll have to go through then
and say what we are now very much interested in
and trying to work towards
is proliferating that kind of technology
and that kind of repair system
it's two-fold really
in one you get that confidence up
and if we get the confidence up
and we help people to do it
we see more repairs
we see more business
that's the reality
but we also see more call coming back to us
because obviously we want the ones back
so that we can repair them
which means we've then got an offering to give back out
that's really important for everybody
because it keeps the whole flow going
but also it then means
if we get into places like independent dealers
if we have a system for doing that
then actually the EVing Park
automatically becomes bigger
because people are confident to buy one at second hand
they are confident to go out there
and change from what they're currently driving
to a new type of technology
and that's important for all of us
Oh, 100%
100%
going back to earlier on
if we say a battery is at
75% state of health
does that mean that every cell in that battery
is at 75% state of health
or does that mean that 25% of the cells
in that battery are at zero state of health
and the rest are at 100
or does it sort of mix and match?
No, typically
and again it will depend a little bit
on the tests that you do
okay, so if you're looking at the BMS
it will give you an overall
so that would be a kind of effectively average
so I might have only 100%
you're unlikely to have any zero
but it'll be a sort of average
if you're running a test like we run
then that will be the worst performing cells
in the battery
because you actually
because they are wired in series
and then in parallel
your overall battery performance
is typically at the lowest performing member
Right
and that will be the lowest performing cell or module
so that would be what we would report
Let's move on to skills and skills deficit
we've talked a little bit about this already
do we have enough people
with the right skills and equipment
in this country
to be able to do
the kind of things
that you and your organisation are doing?
Well, the simple answer is no
that's the reality
so things are getting better
in the sense that there is
starting to be good technician qualifications
for people to remove batteries
to make them safe
to replace batteries
in terms of actually
the proliferation of the technology
and the skills
to be able to repair them
then no there isn't
it is that simple
there are only one or two players in the market
and they are not in all places
and it takes us a while
to be able to train people
to be able to get our technology over there
we're privately owned
so that automatically limits a little bit
what you can do in terms of
you know
where are we going to
find the money for to invest
so we typically partner
and we partner with OEMs
because that makes sense for us
and then we have the backing
and it gives them the infrastructure they need
but it gives us that
level of security if you like
but no there are very few players
in the repair market
and that's the real shame
that said
I do think that it will come
you know we're not the only people looking at this
we have a really good solution here and now
we want to be out there and telling people
there will be others
so people are already there in the market
so we do know it can be done
the biggest issue is making sure that what's done
is done competently
because that again to me is about confidence
you know and we are really proud to say
that of all the ones that we have repaired
we haven't had any warranty claims
on those ones that we have repaired
so we know everything we put out is good
good
you know
I can't say that about everybody because I don't know
but we have to get to the point where we have
that level of technology for everybody
when it comes to upskilling people
there are two ways of doing this
and you've already mentioned one which is
you bring people into your organisation
you train them internally
you give them all the skills that they need
and that's absolutely fine
and that's what a lot of companies do
but of course you've then got the other aspect of this
which is there needs to be an education aspect
at technical colleges
or for younger people
to actually learn that kind of skills and experience
so that when they come to you
they have a level of knowledge
a base level that you can build on
are you doing any work to try and
improve the educational level
for people before they come into your organisation
so we're partnering with a couple of local colleges
and one UTC near us
to try and get that started
but it is in its infancy
and for us this is about
how do we start that again
we are a relatively small organisation
there is about $500 in total
and not all doing EV
it would be unfair of me to say we aren't
yes so we're partnering with local ones
but we do need a more general thing
but again this to me comes down to that recognition
that this is what we need to do
so what I see coming out in current legislation
what I see coming out from the government
and even when we are talking about the path to net zero
it's all about recycling
it's not about repair
it's that middle part of reuse and repair
is very at the moment undervalued and underseen
and until we make that step change
you know I spend a lot of time
talking to people lobbying for it
because I am you know very very passionate
that this is what we need to do
I really do think that
but until we get to that point
you only get pockets of recognition
so because we take apprentices
because we take workplace once
because we engage with our local UTCs
our local colleges
we have some leverage and some say with what they do
and they can see that there's a need
and they can start to help us develop that
but it's getting it to the more wide and mainstream
that's the really big challenge
and that will come I think a little from OEMs
because they are engaged
but again we do I'm afraid still from some OEMs
see the abapfies won't ever fail
and if they do we don't want anybody to know
and the reality is you know like it or not
they will
but things do that's okay
you know I tell all my apprentices
the only people who don't make mistakes
are the ones who aren't doing anything
and it's no different with batteries
and with cars is it
the ones that don't fail
the ones in the garage
we've come to the end of our time
Sarah is there anything else you want to say
on this topic before we finish
the only thing for me here
is that to replace an EV battery
before it needs to be replaced
so in other words by not repairing it
by not keeping going for the longest
is madness
it's madness in terms of cost
it's madness in terms of the environment
repairs are a fraction
a fraction less than five percent
of the overall impact of a battery
in in environmental sense
it makes no sense not to do it
and the more I can get the message out
there the more people who know about it
the more we move towards that the better for me
Oh sorry Ridley
I appreciate your time
thank you very much for coming on the show
no thank you Gary
it's been an absolute pleasure
a couple of takeaways from this
battery issues and problems
will occur with some electric vehicles
and that's one reason manufacturers
provide warranties to help new owners deal with it
the figure that Sarah quoted was about a half a percent
which is slightly higher than the equivalent
for internal combustion engine vehicles
but as Sarah said
they've had a hundred years to sort out the tech
so you'd expect the engines to be in a much better state
than batteries at this point
but what Sarah was at pains to point out
is that just because a battery pack has a problem
it doesn't mean that the battery needs to be scrapped
and replaced at huge cost to the owner
with the work that Sarah and Autocraft Solutions do
it's now possible to bring the car in
identify which part of the battery has the issue
isolate it replace it and send it back out
as new that's both quicker
and cheaper than replacing it with a brand new battery
the other thing that's apparent from this discussion
is that there is at present a bit of a tendency
to take faulty batteries out
and send them straight to recycling
whilst there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that
it does miss out on a great deal of useful life
where a battery which is no longer suitable for use in an EV
can go on to home storage or as Sarah suggested
battery storage for EV chargers for example
which could be trickle charge from low voltage grid connections
but still used to rapid charge EVs
now I don't know about you
but I thought this was a fantastic discussion
and I love Sarah's duty-free cigarettes analogy
to explain cells modules and packs
it was brilliant
so having listened to this
do battery issues still loom large for you
as potential EV owners
or are you an existing EV owner
who's approaching the end of your EV's battery warranty
do you feel concerned
I certainly feel a lot more relaxed
about the state of the battery in the vehicle
that I just bought
so let me know
in 4dvmusings.com
it's time for a cool EV or renewable thing to share with you listeners
at keeping with the battery theme
I want to talk about a new battery install
for energy storage
constructions recently started on the 100 megawatt
meredin
meredin
meredin
the 100 megawatt meredin big battery
in western Australia
which is set to finish in October 2026
this battery is going to help stabilize the power grid
and support clean energy in the wheat belt
and eastern goldfield regions
the project will create jobs
and provide benefits to the local community during its operation
now this battery joins nearly 500 megawatts worth of
mostly 4-hour battery storage operating in the southwest interconnected system
since 2023
and ahead of a further 728 megawatts of committed storage
that's expected to be brought online
in the next 18 months
batteries for the wind right
the EV musings podcast is sponsored by ZapMap
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I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show
it was put together this week with the help of
Sarah Dr. Sarah Ridley
and Pete Mooney
many thanks to them for the help
if you have any thoughts comments criticisms
or other general messages to pass on to me
I can be reached at info at EVmusings.com
on the socials I'm on blue sky at evmusings.beastky.social
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if you can remember and you enjoy this episode
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thanks
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why not let me know you've got this point by messaging me
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hashtag if you know you know nothing else
thanks as always to bucko found Simon
you know he posted an Instagram reel from a museum he went to in Italy recently
it was devoted to household appliances through the ages
he was particularly interested in the small device
that was an apparent forerunner to the modern day vacuum
but manual of course
he said
so this is one of those really interesting things
it's a little bit like Triggers Brew
thanks for listening
bye
you
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