277: The Sacrificial Lamb

277: The Sacrificial Lamb The Watt Car EV Podcast · Jul 2, 2026

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Brand

Polestar

Polestar is a car brand that makes stylish, high-tech electric cars. It started as a special performance division of Volvo but became its own electric-only brand, though it is now leaving the US market.

Company

Geely

Geely is a giant Chinese car company that owns well-known European brands like Volvo and Lotus, helping them transition into making modern electric vehicles.

Car

Lotus Eletre

A high-tech, all-electric SUV made by Lotus, a brand famous for making tiny, lightweight sports cars. It is built in China and packed with modern technology.

Car

Lincoln Nautilus

A luxury SUV from Lincoln that, starting in 2024, is manufactured in China and imported to North America.

Car

Buick Envision

A comfortable, family-sized SUV sold by Buick that is actually built in China and shipped to the US.

Car

Tesla Model 3

A very popular electric sedan made by Tesla. It is known for its long driving range, fast acceleration, and high-tech features.

Term

FSD

A software feature you can buy for Tesla cars that helps the car steer, accelerate, brake, and change lanes on its own, though the driver must still pay attention and be ready to take over at any second.

Term

BlueCruise

Ford's driving assistant that lets you take your hands off the steering wheel on certain highways, as long as you keep your eyes on the road.

Car

Ford Mustang Mach-E

An electric SUV made by Ford that uses the famous 'Mustang' name. It is designed to compete directly with Tesla's SUVs.

Car

Toyota A90

The Toyota Supra is a two-door sports car made by the Japanese company Toyota. It is designed to go fast, look sporty, and be fun to drive.

Car

Dodge Ram

The Dodge Ram is a large pickup truck made in America. It is designed for carrying heavy loads, towing trailers, and driving on rough terrain.

Car

Tesla Model S

The Tesla Model S is a large, luxury four-door car that runs entirely on electricity. It is made by the American company Tesla and is known for its high-tech features.

Company

CARIAD

A special software company owned by Volkswagen. They were created to build the computer brains for all of VW's future cars, but they have struggled with delays and technical issues.

Person

Herbert Diess

The former boss of Volkswagen who pushed the company to go all-in on electric cars, but was eventually fired after software problems delayed several new models.

Term

ADAS

A general term for safety features in modern cars that help you drive, like warning you when you drift out of your lane or automatically braking to avoid a crash.

Car

Ford Model T

The Ford Model T is an antique car made by Ford starting in 1908. It is famous because it was the first car made on an assembly line, making it cheap enough for regular people to buy.

Term

dielectric thermal fluid

A special liquid that doesn't conduct electricity, used to cool electric car batteries by letting the battery parts sit directly in the liquid without short-circuiting.

Car

Lucid Air

A high-end, luxury electric sedan designed to compete with Tesla and Mercedes. It is famous for having some of the longest driving ranges of any electric car on the market.

Car

Hyundai Ioniq

A highly efficient hatchback made by Hyundai that came in hybrid and electric versions. It was designed to get as much distance as possible out of every bit of energy.

Car

Mercedes-Benz Cclass

The Mercedes-Benz C-Class is a luxury four-door sedan made by the German company Mercedes-Benz. It is designed to be comfortable, high-tech, and stylish.

Car

BMW i3

A small, futuristic-looking electric hatchback made by BMW. It was unique because its body was made of lightweight carbon fiber and it had rear doors that opened backward.

Car

Chevrolet Bolt EV

An affordable, compact electric hatchback made by Chevrolet that helped make long-range electric driving accessible to everyday buyers.

Car

Ferrari Luce

The Ferrari Luce is likely a misheard name for a high-end sports car made by the Italian company Ferrari. The podcast discusses a limited number of these expensive cars being sold in China.

Term

dealer markup

An extra fee that car dealerships tack onto the price of a highly desirable car just because they know people are willing to pay more to get it.

Car

Ferrari 308 GTS

A classic, wedge-shaped Ferrari sports car from the late 1970s and 1980s with a removable roof panel. It is famous for being driven by Tom Selleck in the TV show Magnum, P.I.

Term

R&R

A mechanic's term that means taking a part out of the car and putting a new one in (or putting the old one back after fixing it). For exotic cars, even simple fixes can require taking out the entire engine, making labor costs skyrocket.

LIVE

This is the What Car Evie Podcast for Thursday, July 2nd, 2026, Episode 277, The Sacrificial

Lamb.

Technically, this is now our second time recording this episode.

Although I don't think the first one counts because we made it about, what, five seconds

in before a completely aborted mission and shut down all controls.

Yes.

Technology is both great and horribly confusing.

They move a button and all of a sudden you're just muscle memory goes to that button and

now that button actually said something else and I clicked it and was like, what do I do?

What do I do?

The answer was you panic and you stop.

You backtrack.

Start completely over.

I'm Phil Royal.

I'm somebody who's used to messing up and then backtracking and starting all over again

because my industry started in my professional industry, started in the magazine business.

So it's been a lot of...

So you had to start over by necessity.

Yes.

You know, I point people to, and this is news for you as well, Ed, I usually point people

to help support the blog and the podcast by going to thewhatcar.com slash store where

you'll find paraphernalia and I don't have things pulled up.

If you're on our YouTube channel, there'll be a link in the show notes.

But if you are on that, then I'll see if I can pop this up on my little share screen

and you can see some of the things that we have.

But the thing to remember here is that we've got t-shirts.

Some of them have our logo.

These all help support the blog and the podcast, hats, water bottles, things like that.

That will be going away this year.

And I think I've found an alternative and we can launch that later this year.

But what it means is in the next month or so probably, I'm going to shut down the store.

And then...

Get them while you can.

Get them while you can because I will have to recreate these, which means I probably won't.

I'll probably start from scratch.

So if you do want and I've got an adapter for that shirt or a hydrogen is the future and

it always will be or a charge baby charge hat or an EVAF shirt or a...

What was my other one?

The sweater.

I love the sweater.

It'll be a shame to give that one, send that one to the dump.

EV Displacement Replacement, also one of my favorites.

If you want any of these, go to the walkcar.com slash store and buy them in the next month

because that's all I can pretty much guarantee.

Store is going to shut down then probably in the winter time, I'll have time to launch

something else.

So surprise for the holidays, huh?

Yeah.

We'll get something new.

We'll get new stock in there for the end of the year.

But right now, that's what you need to do.

Did I say youtube.com slash at the walk car?

Watch our smiling faces.

Ed, on to you.

Yeah.

Ed Sanchez also in a different profession than I started with out of necessity and trying

to navigate industry trends the best I can for a while.

So I know not to be doomsayer, but past couple of episodes, we've been talking about death

watch quite a bit.

So some brand popped up, wasn't really expecting this one, a little out of the blue, I thought.

But yeah, Polestar, not coming back in 2027 to the US market.

Okay, so what's really surprising is Polestar is a division of Volvo.

I think it was a separate company originally, and they did like souped up.

I probably have my history wrong.

It used to be kind of like the Volvo version of like AMG kind of.

Yeah.

And was it separate?

I don't even know if we know.

I'm not entirely sure.

I don't know if it started as a separate entity or if it was already.

Because I think AMG was a separate entity, and then it got enveloped into Mercedes as

time went, whatever, I'm probably way off.

That's just what I, in my brains.

I'm old.

I think we covered that.

I started with magazines.

Things get mixed up and jumbled in my head.

But Polestar and Volvo are one and the same, essentially now.

And they are owned by, is it Geely?

Yeah, Geely's the parent company.

And I missed that last bit that you just said, because we're having some weird internet

issues.

Oh.

But.

Geely?

Yeah.

Okay.

So they're owned by Geely.

And so that's Volvo and Polestar.

Polestar is not coming back in 27 to America.

But Volvo is.

Yeah.

Super kind of confusing and arbitrary, I think, but.

There's another weirdness.

Did you pick up on the other weirdness of this?

Because you would think, oh, they're owned by Geely, Chinese cars, they're in America.

Neither the Polestar EVs or the Volvos are made in China.

They are made in, at least as far as I can find, they're made in South Carolina and.

Some.

South Korea.

Yeah.

And South Korea, those are the ones that come to America.

I didn't find anybody saying that Chinese models come here.

So the concern, I think, is software-based, not necessarily hardware-based.

And that what the Chinese, because they're all owned, it's, you know, there's China

mothership when they, what data they can grab if they so decide, but why, why, if this

is a national security issue, why would you stop Polestar into America and allow Volvo

when I believe they use the same manufacturing plants, don't they?

Or am I completely off on this?

No, no, I believe the South Carolina plant builds both Volvo and Polestar vehicles.

And I'm going to guess Volvo sells more vehicles than Polestar.

Mm hmm. Yeah, by quite a bit.

So if this is a national security issue, why are you letting the big producer in and

like was was Polestar a sacrificial lamb by Volvo or Geely to go, all right, we just

won't bring these in and then buy more time because Volvo released a statement that said,

we've been allowed in.

And it was a very interesting press release that they had because it said basically Volvo

has been allowed in per this.

What was the what is the department that you already say it was the U.S.

Department of Commerce Bureau of Industry, which and security Bureau of Industry and

security that they said that they've been allowed in per like a waiver on that and that

they are making.

They are announcing this in their press release as per an EU requirement in the

convolutedness of all of us.

Yeah, I this this doesn't I mean, I haven't really dug down really deep into this, but

it on the surface, it just seems really arbitrary.

I'm assuming they kind of grandfathered Volvo and just because, you know, Volvos had a presence

in the U.S. for what, 60 plus years.

Never mind the fact they've gone through various iterations of ownership, the most

current one being Chinese, whereas Polestar is a fairly new startup rat.

I want to say what was 21 or 22.

What word was the first year on the market as a standalone brand?

I yeah, I don't really get this.

Yeah, this a lot of things this administration does don't don't make a lot of sense.

But I think maybe, well, I mean, candidly, I mean, Polestar was kind of struggling a

little bit in the U.S. sales.

I don't think we're really meeting expectations.

So I mean, I'm sure this didn't, I mean, the fact that the Department of Commerce

kind of came after them, that was kind of as probably the straw that broke the camels

back. They were like, you know what, this brand's already kind of on shaky ground right

now. If we have to deal with this, just forget it.

Yeah, I kind of a sacrificial lamb.

I think I said earlier.

And yeah, I may have to dig down a little more on this and kind of see what the nuances

are of it. But yeah, on the surface, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

But anyway, yeah, what it is.

Yeah. I mean, is there other shoes to drop?

I mean, Lotus is in America.

And the the Electra is made in China.

Yeah, I've seen I've seen at least a couple of them here.

I'm assuming they're, you know, federally approved.

And there are other Chinese, I mean, Buick and Vision, Lincoln Nautilus.

There are Chinese built cars sold in America.

So yeah, it just seems kind of arbitrary to pick on Polestar.

But somebody had to take the fall.

Yes. And I guess it was them.

Yeah. So do you want to talk about something relative related in some way to your model

three? Sure.

I love talking about autonomous cars.

Because I think we are

an infinite number of years away from full autonomy, where it matters.

Where it's like I robot kind of stuff where you're just sitting in a pod

and speeding down a road and you don't you're not aware of what's going on around

you. And then you've got robots jumping from roof to roof in some action adventure

going on around you while you're just trying to get to work.

So you have a model three that came with hardware 2.5.

2.5. Yeah.

And then you paid a million dollars to have that upgraded to hardware three.

Three. Yeah.

I might be off a little bit with the amount that you paid.

I paid some.

Yeah. And then you got you test drove quote unquote test drove FSD and was like that's fine.

Like it was it was a kind of parlor trick.

And but I just I don't know it wasn't.

I don't know some people are like obsessed with with you know FSD and all the capabilities of that.

I was like that's cool.

But I mean I don't I don't really see the value of paying 100 bucks a month in perpetuity for it.

If I go on another long road trip I might might just you know turn it on for a month and just

see but yeah I think that's the extent of my interest in it.

Yeah. And you work from home.

So there's that caveat there.

And I've got a friend that has a Maki with it's with the Ford's blue cruise.

And when he he now works from home but when he was commuting in doing like a 40 mile each way

commute he loved it. Like that was why he bought the car was to do this and he would just get in

the car and sit there and read his phone on his way to work on and it worked great on the freeway

stop start traffic. It was it was fantastic. You know he loved that. So it depends on your

application. Well back in I think it was like 2019 Tesla slash Elon Musk said all the Model

3's that are being sold everything being sold can do full self-driving full autonomy

you know coming forward into the future. And then so I think that was kind of maybe a little bit

why you upgraded is because it was like well let's just go and do it then because OK well 2.5

wasn't wasn't there even though I think he he'd said at the time that like when your car came out

I think that still fell under the these cars will be able to do this.

Well yeah or it was right on the cost whatever it was. So you got FSD or Hardware 3 you did that

whole thing and then it's become painfully obvious that Hardware 3 is not getting to full autonomous

hands off eyes off hands off driving. It just doesn't have the processor power.

Yeah so that's Hardware 4 or beyond we don't know. Well maybe because there's been all these

statements I don't I don't know maybe they're trying to get out of lawsuits whatever. Now

they're saying OK so you're going to get FSD version 14 on Hardware 3 which sounds great

other than I don't completely understand everything that they're saying about it.

But it's like a frozen in time dumbed down version of version 14 that according to Tesla's release

notes according to this article on Electric the quote unquote light build distilled the

intelligence from Hardware 4 v 14 into Hardware 3 letting older computers directly learn

how to handle scenarios using Hardware 4 version 14 as a guide which I don't completely

understand it's like they're just it's like what I did with my third kid when it came to

learning to swim. The first two got swimming lessons and the third one we threw in the pool

and you grab him out if he starts to go under for too long. That's how I've interpreted this.

Yeah I'm not a I'm not an expert on like machine learning and AI and all that but

do you remember probably maybe about a year ago at this point when everyone was going crazy

about deep seek the Chinese like AI model. Yeah so what but what they did is they

my understanding is they like trained it on like already trained data if that makes any sense.

I think that's what this distillation and like the AI world means so

my my understanding of this is basically they're like we don't have to reinvent the wheel it's

already we've already kind of done this basic model processing so we'll use that like already

processed data for this model so kind of good enough I guess. Good enough. Hardware

the article says I just looked at it. Tesla says that that using it as a guide unlocks

improvements made on hardware 4 including reinforcement learning and offline models along

with better navigation handling of merges and forks pedestrian interactions and nearly

introduced parking unparking and reversing capabilities so I think you're right I think

that they are taking the lessons learned and they are just saying well here's this you can't

hardware 3 can't learn it it's not smart enough to learn it and process it fast enough but it

is good enough if we take this distilled version of that that is frozen in time

and we go here you go and that'll get you a 90% of the way maybe. Supposedly the the other thing

this is also also leaves unanswered is I know at some point Maastricht Tesla brought up the

possibility of basically a hardware retrofit for older cars and they said that have to set up like

a mini assembly line to do these I I kind of don't think that's probably ever going to happen.

I mean I mean my car is in Tesla years it's it's old I mean it's not like first gen model less old

but you know it's getting to the point where some of the hardware and the compute on it is

kind of showing its age a little bit I mean it's still I still love it still feels like a modern

car but from the standpoint of like software and technology it's it's older it's not as

advanced as the new stuff and at some point I mean this kind of gets back I just read some

the other day Microsoft is this extending the life of Windows 10 yet again so but it gets

to a point where it just you you kind of have to deprecate you just kind of have to just cut

it off and say look we'll still support like you know basic functionality on this but you know

you're not going to get the latest bells and whistles on your you know 88 to nine

year old car anymore and I don't I don't think that makes Tesla or or Elon a you know bad company

or a bad person it's just it just kind of becomes unpractical it becomes impractical to continue to

you know develop these older technologies where you're probably kind of trying to push them beyond

kind of their design parameters so I you know I don't have really strong feelings about this

one way or the other I mean I appreciate that they're still trying to make it work but it's like

I think they have to try there were just so many promises made I think they have to try I think to

get out of billion dollar class action lawsuit they've got to show in good faith that they

are trying to make this happen yeah so I think that's what this is to me to I mean for a lot of

people FSD and the whole you know that whole thing is like their primary reason for buying a Tesla

it really never was for me it was like kind of an added kind of cool benefit I guess

but even when I did the trial you know after I got my my you know upgraded to hardware three

I played with it you know and played with the free trial but I'm like that's cool but it's

you know it didn't like change my life so yeah I was listening watching reading reading that's

what I was doing an interview with uh no maybe I was watching I don't know it's all the same now

it's all one in the same with an interview with the president of SpaceX and she made a statement

about how Elon Musk makes promises and they deliver on all of those promises just not

necessarily on the timeline that he says and she outright said it and she's been with that

company for like 20 years and has known Elon like from the early days so I think she can get away

with things like that but I mean I've been saying that forever yes well people like us have openly

said it she's the president of SpaceX and she said that of her direct boss is that he makes

promises and we will get there and that's exactly what I think this is this is a good faith effort

of we'll get there what blows my mind you mentioned Microsoft circling back to that

and them extending like Windows 10 I think it was Windows 7 something like that where they came

out with Windows or was it whatever it was one of those early pre 10 and they came out or maybe it

was 10 I don't I don't remember but they came out with a version and to extend the life of laptops

to get them so they could do the upgrade that you could get this like USB key that you plugged in

to the USB port and it would use that as like swap memory or whatever smart people do with

computer stuff and it would add to the resources to the RAM it would use it as RAM or whatever it

was doing to get there what blows my mind with Tesla is that they are not equipped to like how

how have they built this where the hardware is not a unplug plug in and it works infinitely for

the rest of time they come up with a proprietary plug from day one and the brain of the computer

always uses that same plug has more throughput than you ever need and you'd be able to upgrade a

maybe not a gen one Model S but certainly all Model 3s by the time you got to Model 3 I think

there was no excuse not to have infinite forward compatibility and they just didn't and it shocks

me for being the smartest man in the world that that wasn't a thing I mean they knew that

processing was going to be this vital to his grand vision and then they make a car that can't go

beyond a half step better on its hardware version it just it just shocked it just I would have I

hear what you're saying but I mean the thing is is technology it's it's kind of a constant evolution

and constant change so I think infinite backward compatibility on anything is is kind of impossible

I mean you have to have a certain cut off at a certain point saying well sorry yeah infinite

maybe not but I think you could come up with a plug that could transfer the data speeds that you need

and all the data you need that you could use for 20 years I think that's doable yeah well I mean

this kind of gets back to the whole usb a usb c I mean at what point I mean by and large like all

new electronics for the most part are usb c I mean you go to hotel rooms and stuff it's

still usb a but I mean and you can you know I have some stuff I have a bunch of adapters because

I've got a bunch of legacy usb a stuff but I need to I need it to work with c so it's like

I don't know and they also now that I'm thinking about it I don't think tesla use I don't know

with the how the computer plugs in whatever I understand with computers and phones they're

gluing all this stuff in because you've got a very small form factor and you're dealing with

you know a thousand dollar or 500 dollar item whatever it is but I believe in the back of

your tesla there is like an what is it ethernet port an r145 whatever they're diagnostics yeah

they just use off-the-shelf diagnostic plugs they weren't using anything proprietary so maybe

that's the case I don't know enough to talk about that I just I just expected more I guess maybe

that's maybe that's why I'm disappointed with them constantly is that I I expect more from a

startup that's supposed to be the best in the world and has changed the entire automotive industry

that I expect that the little things were taken care of

fair enough I mean so let's move on to Volkswagen though because well yes it's not just tesla that's

having this problem with full self-driving well I say full self-driving real full self-driving not

fsd with full autonomous driving so Volkswagen as apparently their uh cariad is that how it said

their car their their division their software division that I believe was the downfall of

oh what was his name the CEO of Volkswagen uh

exactly I can see his face but I can't do we we had a podcast episode where I

photoshopped his face on a skydiver herbert herbert dease dease yes there you go okay so uh

that was kind of caria cariad cariad was his downfall because I believe he dumped so much

money into getting the software Volkswagen products better and then it just failed and eventually

he was asked to leave he was shown the door from from Volkswagen group well now Volkswagen

is parting ways with Bosch as part of that cariad uh software development thing after

Volkswagen has spent 1.7 billion dollars on what should have been self-driving and uh uh I guess

hasn't been self-driving yeah I don't know this is rumor this is all not this is

through a german company a german news agency called build I guess and so it's it's with people who

are familiar with the source familiar with familiar with the matter yeah so

this is hard apparently because Volkswagen is willing to throw away 1.7 billion dollars given to

Bosch over presumably this goes back to the herbert dease days so this is this could be 10 years but

it's still you spend it I'm not going to spend a billion dollars in my lifetime so it's a lot of

money no matter how you slice it you know it could be 100 million dollars a year that they've been

spending on this and they've got nothing nothing to show for it but they're gonna continue on

throwing money at this well what I mean isn't that what the whole Rivian tie-up was about to help

them with software I guess yeah yeah yeah that was scout um Rivian coming on board to help with

scout yeah that was all software based seems like Volkswagen's really been struggling is this

is this because Germans think different from everybody else in the world

they are very logical but their logic doesn't necessarily make sense to the rest of us

well I just yeah I think well this isn't is kind of in a roundabout way an argument in favor of

vertical integration um you know at first you know a lot of people criticize Tesla for being so

insular but there is an advantage should not having to to having stuff internally

and not having to rely on third-party vendors I'm not saying it's you know vertical integration is

a complete panacea but I mean you got to get the material from somewhere eventually you are not

making this stuff yeah no I mean for for yeah I'd say raw materials but something is as fundamental

to modern cars as software I mean there's definitely an industry push to try to bring as much of that

in house as possible um presumably to avoid situations like this so yeah is this the end

of Volkswagen can they just not catch up is it all software divine vehicles from now on and Volkswagen's

just on a downward spiral because of the software and the hardware is fine like the cars are fine

but is this could this take them down well I mean not not to keep being a dead horse but you know

the whole all the competition from China I mean they're having to deal with that they've lost sales

they used to be one of the top-selling brands in China now I don't even know if they're even

I mean I think maybe they're like number five now or possibly lower than that but

and then I've heard the European market generally is kind of soft right now and I

I hearing news like just to shift topic slightly but vehicle repossessions and

one defaults are are increasing in the US so I mean it's not just Volkswagen

so whole whole industry thing but I mean this definitely doesn't help so

yeah I I don't know I I like to believe that it's just stumbling blocks

mm-hmm and that Volkswagen will get over this but I also don't buy into full autonomy being

something that everybody cares about or is willing to pay for mm-hmm so I can see it being

really useful downtown New York or downtown any city really where you don't parking is difficult

so like my wife went into LA you know it wasn't even LA is like the valley but she went into a

very busy area and she sent me this message going man I forgot how much because we used to live in

that area and she was like I forgot how much I hate parking in that in that area it's so difficult

and so she apparently circled around for like 30 minutes and then gave in and went and didn't got

valet mm-hmm if you lived in an area like that why would you waste the time yeah so you just get

an autonomous vehicle that can park itself somewhere else or you just get ubers which

would then be presumably in the future all autonomous that I could see that being an

industry but I can't see it being there's I I should know the number how many tens of millions

of cars are sold every year in America are hundreds of millions or whatever the number is 15

yeah so I want to say I can't imagine that if that number is 15 million that

there's gonna be fast forward 15 years and everybody's all 15 million of those cars give

or take you know sales numbers as time progresses that all of those cars are have full autonomous

features I just don't think people are unless it comes like cruise control

which is how a lot of like driver assists come but I don't know where you're spending Volkswagen

spent $1.7 billion to develop something and you know how much I don't know and I'm not expecting

you to know but I'm gonna ask it like a question you know how much money it cost it must have cost

to develop cruise control it was a vacuum actuated switch like it probably cost them like 50 cents

to develop this thing it was just basic pressure holding it and then when you go to drive by wire

it's just a line of code like it doesn't require much to hold a speed but now if you get into full

autonomous vehicles you're talking cameras everywhere possibly light are if that's the way

you're choosing to go you've got sensors inside shooting at people like it there's a lot more

than a vacuum switch that you can buy that you probably can't buy at pet boys anymore but you

used to be able to buy my pet boys and retrofit any car with it yeah well I think you what you

touched on is really key is is the willingness to pay because I've looked at consumer surveys

and you ask them are you interested in this technology you're in they're like oh yes that's

cool that's cool when it gets to paying for it they're like no I don't want to pay for it yeah I

want it but I don't want to pay for it so that's FSD was a hundred dollars a month is that what it

is on your car yeah and that's I guess that's the only way so previously you could purchase is like a

one-time option I think in the early early days it was like 12 or 15 grand it was it was a ridiculous

amount yeah it's all the way did I think anywhere from 6000 to 15000 I think it started low went

way up and then came right down yeah and now I mean up until recently was I think like six to

8000 dollars per car and you can get it as a one-time purchase basically lifetime option

but Tesla's getting rid of that completely saying you know have the capability built in but you

have to subscribe we're not doing the one-time purchase anymore and the rest of the industry

is trying to emulate that they're trying to you know make everything a subscription and I think

there's a lot of consumer pushback to that because they're like I'm already I'm already paying for

Netflix I'm paying for Spotify this that you know just every month just

you know and they're like I don't want to have to keep you're recurring payment for

yet something else so on top of a car that you've already got potentially an 800

dollar a month car payment plus the insurance cost like it it quickly is a mortgage

yeah it can be yeah so yeah so I mean I think development of like autonomous and what they

call 8S you know advanced driver systems I mean that's still going to continue

you but it's it's not I mean I remember the peak hype cycle I remember like 2018 2019

I mean that the hype was like I mean it's kind of like where AI is now where they're

like oh they're you know autonomous cars are going to be all over the street and you know by

you know in five years you know you know none of us are going to be driving you know we're all

we forget I'd say we're at least 10 years out from this being like a real reality like mass

market where it's like common it's common feature in cars where you know and it's probably going to be

like you know uber's and and waymo's and yeah I I don't know it's been seven or eight years

since companies have been making these promises Tesla has been making these promises and then

other car companies because Tesla drives it forward and then everybody else has to come in and make

the same prop promises but it's already been seven or eight years of these promises and I would say

we are marginally closer than we were yeah this isn't I don't even think in 10 years I think we

are so far away I think is such a difficult thing to get to now the caveat to that is like a waymo

in a I'm doing I have all the best words and none of them are coming to my mind in a geofence

words yeah in a geofenced area yeah sure I get that but they just had a thing with waymo we've

exactly that scenario with waymo's with lidar in a geofenced area running the same circuit

again and again and they just had to park a bunch of them in a neighborhood for some random reason

that I don't remember why that made the news a week ago it's difficult it is a very difficult

nut to to crack and so what did DOT say DOT said you know I should be if you're watching this on

YouTube it should be more fluid than this DOT said you don't need a brake pedal we'll just take

those requirements away as well so here you go Trump administration proposes axing brake pedal

requirements for AVs in a boost for Tesla and a boost for anybody else like Volkswagen trying to get

there that they're saying well you don't need a big brake pedal now back in the day of Biden

administration they got rid of steering wheel requirements so this isn't anything new yeah

and now they're saying okay now we don't need a brake pedal in these cars either

and what do I have I take notes and then I don't remember why I put quotes in there

nitsa administrator Jonathan Morris and well let's learn together why I put this in here

he said we are the cusp of the great greatest technological revolution vehicle technology

since the innovation of the Model T I remember why I put this in here if we want America

to lead the way we have to reimagine our regulatory framework that's why under secretary

Sean Duffy's AV framework nitsa is tearing down pointless barriers to innovative designs while

strengthening fundamental safety requirements the matter and holding AV developers accountable

for safe performance so he's been drinking the Kool-Aid that this is the greatest technological

revolution since the Model T I mean I personally I I mean I think to me like not requiring the

brake pedal is not shocking I guess the one thing and you kind of touch on this a little bit

is you you talked about a panic cord like in buses I had to look to stop because yeah so buses

and trains they used to have a cord that you would pull like trolleys you would pull the cord

and it would activate the brakes now it's kind of a button and it's more of a suggestion that

goes to the conductor but it is still as far as I could tell required by law that you have a pull

stop and they're getting rid of a pull stop in this and you could argue in a taxi cab or an Uber

driven by a person you don't have a pull stop but you have a person and I mean I'm wondering

there's a lot there should be like a panic button like you need a pull stop and even if it's not

even if it's not directly like a brake pedal that stops the vehicle you need a panic button

you need something that says to this autonomous vehicle that you are riding in slow down and

pull over as fast as you can I'm having a heart attack or you can't see the wall directly in front

of us or something like that this isn't working we've got to stop maybe they'll have that but

nowhere in this do they talk about it they just talk about how this is a great revolution and

that we're taking away these requirements my fear is that we have no pull stop in autonomous vehicles

that you get in one and there is no way to stop one and I've not been in a waymo so I don't know

if they exist as it is I don't know how you stop so I may sound like complete out of date idiot

because these don't exist already but I'm guessing there's a stop pedal somewhere in these vehicles

because they are now removing that requirement or they are proposing removing it but typically in

a waymo people sit in the back seat you could still climb through which when you're crying

flying down the freeway what does that do for you well yeah I know I mean I'm just wondering

about the reaction time and like no there isn't there isn't you just die anyway right I mean

I mean this kind of

I hear what you're saying but I mean it's I kind of feel like even a brake pedal

in the greater scheme of autonomous vehicles is still kind of a relic

I mean yeah and I don't see how you get to the brake pedal like you said you know if there's

a brake so you get in like one of the converted Jags that is now autonomous well there'll be

a brake pedal but there's not going to be one this isn't like a driver's ed car there's probably

not going to be one in every seat front and rear but I wonder if they should put in requirements

for pull stops am I just old is this just me being concerned about a robot driving me places

I I don't think it's unfounded or unreasonable but I just yeah I guess I don't know I don't

know if they have concern that people would like mess around with it and use it like

like kind of kind of as a prank like either pull the cord or hit the hit the you know panic button

and then basically that have to reset everything and I mean I don't know maybe that's why pull stops

are now suggestions to the conductor and not well yeah not a hard stop typically I mean my my

understanding is like on city buses um it just goes ding and it like lights up like stop requested

yep um yeah no it's a suggestion but they're still required according to the brief bit of

research I did it's still a requirement for public transit to have these things

I just ah man I just I I and I don't really have any problem with full autonomous

cabs you know uber goes full autonomous that's fine you can choose to get in there as long as

they're good and as long as they are good you know so have you been an autonomous car

I have not okay I have been in prototypes but it was to your point kind of geofence like a

not a closed course they were on public roads but it was yeah you know a a route that had been

traveled many many times and validated and um I I didn't feel really uneasy I mean

these couple times there's a human like chaperone you know they're ready to take over if needed

I have not yet been in a waymo um but I mean I'll probably say probably within the next

year I'll probably just try one out just for the heck of it um I mean people who think that

these cyber cabs are whizzing around Austin like fully autonomous I can't I thought I included a note

somewhere in the show notes maybe it was another week that those all have people watching

those are not running completely autonomous on their own they have overseers of like every car

that's going around I think it will have been in that article that we talked about a few weeks ago

where the guy couldn't get anywhere in Dallas or wherever it was like it ended up dumping in

like a mile from his location and it wouldn't make left turns yet yeah hit the assist button and

somebody had to take over that there's it's like that robot that was making the rounds a few months

ago where it was like this this um standing up whatever they call it a full you know it was the

one the chinese restaurant that was going crazy and like oh this one was in like this one was in

like a uh a demo house and it would load the dishwasher and it would take forever to do it

like it it was very careful with everything and then it was revealed the the company then

revealed because the journalist was like so how is this running there was a dude like remotely

controlling a robosuit that yeah that was like next door controlling this whole thing so it was

just an appearance and that's kind of what these are this is don't get me into big data

because big data is all bob and accounting with a spreadsheet and somebody has convinced

larry who runs the company that they've got they've invested in big data and it's actually

bob and accounting with a spreadsheet that has to work on weekends to crunch these numbers

because they got all the data in but you can't do anything with it yeah it's just this dude that

doesn't have a life anymore because the president thinks that it's oh well just you know have big

data do it no it's a person at the end of the day it's a person because we're not there with

technology yet yeah and you know where we are with technology bizarrely is this article that you

popped in that i was like isn't this lead acid batteries isn't this well first read i mean it

kind of seems like that but yeah so what is going on this one's slightly different but i guess

not different as well because this works for evs and evs are easiest to do like autonomous vehicles

this is shell in the news built an ev that uses half the carbon of today's electric cars

by using what i read as lead acid batteries but then i googled it and i was completely wrong

it's not lead acid batteries at all yeah you know i don't fully understand um it's it kind of seems

like kind of a self-contained passive cooling system rather than um like an active like coolant

loop that you basically goes through radiator and and is pumped through that's kind of my

read of it um but it's basically like i mean kind of like what you said is is the the the cells are

like like immersed in this fluid um this is non-conductive fluid um which when you look up

this technology versus uh like lead acid batteries that it turns out that and this is where i'll sound

completely stupid that the what's the term that they used um dielectric thermal fluid yeah dielectric

battery uh fluid is dielectric fluid batteries completely different from the water in a in a

lead acid battery it's like not the same thing at all but yes it seems like it you are sitting

you are immersing it to cool it and keep everything level i guess and it's more efficient

yeah i mean that's i guess that's a claim to fame um so a claimed consumption in this car

of 6.2 miles per kilowatt hour which a good car like your car model free is pretty efficient

and you have the small battery pack you're like 3.9 or 4 or something like that so this is pretty

good i think the lucid air i don't know what whether they got there finally eventually or whatever

but it hit like the 5 mile per kilowatt hour mark and that was like mind blowing there was the

Ioniq the hunday Ioniq the original one the front wheel drive thing that one was around

i want to say 55 point 15 point two it was like the most efficient electric vehicle

there was and uh it just couldn't go very far because it was doing a lot of it on it you know

because he had a a double a battery as it's as it's uh yeah as its power supply but 6.2 is pretty

good i i can't remember what mercedes was getting remember there are concepts like c-class long tail

that they had oh yeah i don't remember what they were getting but i i bet this is in that range

and this thing's just like a little pod this looks kind of like a it reminds me of the i3 the original

i3 yeah it's kind of either an i3 or a bolt or kind of bolt this you know it's it's just

semi-futuristic but a car it's not like the long tail that they did on the mercedes

yeah so they'll mention in there was weight too that's that's the big topic in

evs is lower cost so i guess they're claiming up to 25 cheaper which is great i didn't i didn't see

weight anywhere in this which yeah i i don't know liquid is not light and i imagine a dielectric fluid

is fluid is heavy i do know that but like i don't know if this is like i mean i buy like

little dielectric grease things for electric connections that those don't weigh a ton but

i don't know how that like i'm buying like two ounces versus like a gallon of battery in terms

of weight how this compares with the conventional battery pack and do you get into slosh or is it

like all filled to the brim i assume so you're not gonna get like because if you've got suddenly

now like a thousand pounds of water sitting beneath you that's sloshing and this once again

i'll sound really stupid because maybe dielectric fluid is not fluid at all maybe it is like the

dielectric grease that i get for electrical connections and maybe this doesn't maybe it's

like a gel that's kind of like you know i didn't go in anywhere it's just i don't know enough about

any of this stuff i don't know if you're from shell and you want to come on and inform and

enlighten us about this feel free yeah did you want to talk about any of the other stuff or do

you want to call it quits on this oh ferrari claiming a great victory of the luce in china

selling out yeah all 88 yeah 88 allocations uh and you know that ferrari was flying high with

luce release because they um their marketing chief uh has left to pursue other endeavors

yeah well the other thing too um is i i think ferrari is basically kind of i don't know black

black males may be too strong a term but basically saying in theory supposedly they're denying this

yeah that to get their like super duper like super turismo v12 blah blah limited edition

they're making buying a luce condition to get one of those supposedly that's the rumor i'm hearing

there oh if you want this car you have to buy one of these yeah and they deny that but they've

done it with other vehicles that you can't go in and just buy this one vehicle that's like their

ultra high end you've got to work your way there there's like one or two other ferrari's that you

need to buy like that's a known thing so i read that was like yeah i could see that

but then one of the quotes from ferrari was we're not doing that they outright denied it and they

said that that just um it's not good for customers to require that which they we know they've done it

in the past yeah but and this said a little bit about the luce i thought revealed a little bit

about internal internally what they think about it they've not had a problem doing this in the past

because i'm guessing all just my opinion on this is the ferrari's that they were making people buy

before they thought well these are awesome ferrari's and these people who have to buy them are gonna

enjoy them they're gonna love them and this is not this there's no downside to owning these other

ferrari's it's not like a punishment yes but they're not when they said you know we're not

going to require that for you know we don't require that for the luce to buy this other ferrari that

that would not make our customers happy like okay so you've just revealed a little bit about the

internal goings on within the company if you're saying publicly well we're not going to do that

because people don't want the luce yeah we'll see verdicts still out on it it's yeah well i've

sold at least 88 or at least they've got 88 um i mean who know i don't know how ferrari works with

this because like with slate they claim that they've got like 150 000 deposits or something

it's like a hundred bucks totally refundable i know but i mean the early days of the cyber

truck they were like saying 2000000 and how many of those actually converted to sales like

almost none of them yeah they had like just short of i want to say god my memory's so bad

i think it was just short of 50 000 on sales that you could walk into at about 50 000 sold

you could walk into a service center and purchase a cyber truck if you want so of that

the 2000001 and a half to 2000000 reservations turned into about 50 000 actual

sales i think ferrari's probably gonna have a high conversion with its 88 i bet all those sell

like when you're dealing with such small numbers and that clientele i don't think you've got lucky

lose it's not a super high bar though no no and i don't know what the reservation price was but it

probably significant i i could see ferrari doing something like well it's 5000 dollars

non-refundable yeah because it's ferrari like yeah yeah that's your clientele if you can't afford that

then you can't afford the car yeah anyway we'll see probably do an update in the

future on the luce i just i don't know how it's gonna go down the history but uh no i also wonder

if it's if they go full electric if part of the problem this is a conversation we could have on

another episode how the dealer markup the dealer the way dealer networks are is that they're structured

around service and so like in regular vehicles you purchase an electric vehicle and then forge

doesn't have too many cars coming back for its service well ferrari's known for oh you need

oil change that's 10000 dollars you know whatever i had a friend that bought a 308

308 gts and it was something he he bought it for a song because its service it's like

50 000 mile service whatever it was it was like 40 grand it was ridiculous so he bought it and he

paid for this and it was still a good deal when he finished but the other owner was like i i don't

have this money like so so my friend bought it and he did this and he's old enough that he's like

i'm never gonna have to do this again i'll be dead but this guy needs another service so he just paid

for it i think ferrari could be in a world of hurt with things like that with its service because

its services like they must have high margins on everything including you know 10000

dollar oil change or a spark plug well i mean change whatever you still need some not as much as

ice but yeah not like tires a lot of those are cabin filters that's about it i mean yeah a lot of

the super cars though are if you want to change the oil or the spark plugs you drop the engine

and that's where the price starts getting really high it's a full removal it's an r and r and you

just don't have this so i kind of wonder i wonder if they're gonna have a pushback from their network

of uh dealer network throughout the world or is like we don't want these because this is where

we make our money like how are we supposed to have a 50000 dollar service on an

electric vehicle to change a white windshield wiper everything we talked about links in the

show notes show notes can be found in the podcast at youtube.com slash at the walk car and also at

the walk car dot com i told you go to the walk car dot com slash store you better do it soon

because i'm gonna be getting rid of that eventually i'm gonna be pushing a button that's gonna

explode all the shirts are gonna go with it all the hats everything i'm gonna be starting from

scratch it's gonna be such a fun project i'm so looking forward to it but it's what must happen

we'll see if we're back next week this week and next week are kind of there's a lot going on so if

not back next week hold tight we'll be back we will have patience yep uh see ya bye bye

0:00

57:47

Polestar

Geely

Lotus Eletre

Lincoln Nautilus

Buick Envision

Tesla Model 3

FSD

BlueCruise

Ford Mustang Mach-E

Toyota A90

Dodge Ram

Tesla Model S

CARIAD

Herbert Diess

ADAS

Ford Model T

dielectric thermal fluid

Lucid Air

Hyundai Ioniq

Mercedes-Benz Cclass

BMW i3

Chevrolet Bolt EV

Ferrari Luce

dealer markup

Ferrari 308 GTS

R&R

About this episode

Original notes