“Ferrari Luce” is mentioned as a topic people talk about, but the exact car being referred to isn’t clear from the snippet alone. It sounds like it’s connected to Ferrari and is notable enough to come up in conversation. If you share a bit more context, I can explain what it is more accurately.
The hosts are comparing two ways of designing cars: one where a person does the driving, and one where the car drives itself. That affects things like where controls and screens go and how the car communicates what it’s doing to the people inside.
Profit margin is how much money a company keeps from each sale after paying its costs. The host is saying Ferrari makes a lot of profit on each car, which helps explain their strict sales approach.
Concept
highly selective
“Highly selective” means Ferrari doesn’t just sell new cars to anyone. They try to control who gets the newest models, often by prioritizing existing customers.
Concept
entry one
“Entry one” is being used as a sales funnel concept: a lower-tier or earlier purchase that qualifies a buyer for access to the newest, more exclusive model. In this segment, it’s part of the argument that Ferrari’s economics and brand control matter more than whether people personally like the Luce.
“Economics of it” means the money side—how the company makes profits and controls sales. The host is saying the Luce’s success is more about business strategy than self-driving technology.
The Cybertruck is an electric pickup truck made by Tesla. It looks very unusual compared with most trucks, which is why people either love it or dislike it. It’s discussed because it was a big, high-visibility EV release.
A “polarized design” is a look that really divides people. Some will think it’s awesome, and others will hate it—so the company may need to sell more to make the project work.
Silicon Valley is the famous tech hub in the U.S. The hosts are using it as shorthand for “tech people,” meaning a different kind of buyer than the classic Ferrari crowd.
Car
Tesla Plaid
Tesla Plaid is Tesla’s high-performance version of the Model S. Here, the hosts use it to describe the type of person who would have bought a fast, tech-focused Tesla before looking at the Ferrari Luce.
The Model S is an electric sedan made by Tesla. It’s known as one of Tesla’s earlier, more performance-focused electric cars. The podcast brings it up when talking about what kinds of buyers might choose certain Tesla models.
“Vice signaling” means showing off something that’s seen as a little “bad” or controversial to prove a point about who you are. In this discussion, it’s about how people use car brands as a kind of social statement.
“Virtue signaling” means showing off your values or beliefs so others know you’re “good” or “right.” Here, the hosts are using it to talk about how car choices can become a public identity statement.
The Model Y is an electric SUV made by Tesla. It’s designed to be a practical everyday car, with room for passengers and cargo. People mention it when discussing how Tesla’s electric cars became more common over time.
“Commoditized” means lots of companies make products that feel basically the same. The host is saying EV speed is now common enough that buyers focus more on brand and price than on performance uniqueness.
A “rage bait car” is a car that people love to argue about. The host is saying some cars are basically designed to spark strong online reactions, not just to be liked quietly.
Car
Rimac Concept One
The Rimac Concept One is a very high-end electric “hypercar.” The hosts are using it as an example of a car company that made great engineering, but the business side didn’t work out right away.
Mati Rimac is the founder of the company behind Rimac’s electric cars. The hosts are saying he used the company’s great engineering to build a real business, not just a cool prototype.
Licensing is when a company lets others use its technology for money. It can help an EV startup earn revenue even if selling cars directly is hard.
Company
VW a group
Volkswagen Group is a big car company that backed Rimac. The point here is that big automakers sometimes invest in smaller EV tech companies so the technology can reach the market.
Bugatti is a famous high-end car brand known for very fast, very special performance cars. Here it’s used as shorthand for the “best at driving” part of the market.
“Pure electric” means the car uses only electricity stored in a battery. The host is saying there isn’t a standout fully electric hypercar that clearly proves customers will buy them in big numbers.
Pagani makes ultra-exclusive hypercars. The host is using Pagani as an example of a brand that understands demand but hasn’t gone all-in on pure electric hypercars.
Koenigsegg is a brand that makes very high-end, limited-run hypercars. The host is saying that even they haven’t committed to a fully electric hypercar because demand is uncertain.
They mention Lamborghini as an example of a supercar brand that looked at making a fully electric car but decided to cancel it. It’s used to argue that the market for top-tier pure EVs is tricky.
Brand
Lucha by Ferrari
“Lucha by Ferrari” is presented as a hypothetical sub-brand strategy: instead of putting the Ferrari name directly on the EV, Ferrari would create a distinct brand identity for the vehicle. The segment argues this could reduce the backlash of people who want a “real Ferrari” experience and feel an EV doesn’t fit the main brand.
They use Maserati as an example of a brand that’s closely linked to Ferrari technology (like using Ferrari engines). The point is that Ferrari could have separated the EV branding the way Maserati is separated from Ferrari’s main identity.
They mean a Ferrari that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. The point they’re debating is how Ferrari would make it feel like a real Ferrari, not just a generic electric car.
Autonomous vehicles are self-driving cars. They’re bringing it up because people often mix up EVs and self-driving ideas when making design or product suggestions.
Here, “shared” means cars are used by different people instead of everyone owning their own. The host is saying people still want to feel connected to a car or brand.
An SUV form factor is the overall shape and layout of an SUV—taller, more upright, and built to feel versatile. The host is saying some brands keep the sporty look but switch to an SUV body style.
The Porsche Cayenne is Porsche’s SUV. In this conversation it’s an example of how some fans felt Porsche was changing its identity by moving into a different kind of vehicle.
“Brand dilution” means a brand might lose its special meaning if it starts selling too many different kinds of products. The hosts are arguing whether Porsche’s SUV push actually hurts the Porsche image—or if it’s just growing the business.
The Porsche Boxster is a Porsche roadster. The host is using it as another example of the kind of “core” Porsche that some people think SUVs don’t match.
The Porsche Macan is a compact SUV that’s positioned as a more “Porsche-like” entry in the SUV lineup. Here it’s described as “aspirational,” meaning it can attract buyers who want the Porsche badge and styling even if they’re not buying a 911.
This means Ferrari models that use both gasoline and electricity. The host is saying buyers don’t value them as highly, so they drop in price faster after purchase.
Here, “valuations” basically means what the cars are worth—especially how their price changes after you buy them. The claim is that hybrid Ferraris drop in value faster than gas ones.
They talk about how movies and old concept cars influenced what people thought self-driving cars would look like. It’s more about the “image of the future” than the actual technology details.
Car
1992 GM Ultralight Concept
They mention the 1992 GM Ultralight Concept as an example of a car that looked like what people thought self-driving tech would look like. It’s used as a reference for the “future car” image from movies and early concepts.
They’re talking about the belief that an EV can stand in for a gas car like-for-like. But EVs and gas cars work differently, especially around charging and how you use the car day to day.
A restomod is an older car that’s kept for its classic style, but upgraded with modern parts. Here, they’re talking about doing that with an electric powertrain.
In an EV, the battery pack is the big set of batteries that stores the electricity. Because it takes up space, it can force the car’s shape and layout to be different from a gas car.
The 308 GTS is an older Ferrari sports car with a mid-mounted engine. It’s known for being a desirable classic model. People mention it when discussing expensive custom builds or upgrades for vintage Ferraris.
The BMW i3 is a small electric car made by BMW. It’s meant for everyday driving, especially in cities. The podcast mentions it because it’s fun to drive and it’s fully electric.
It means “fast” is becoming common, so it’s not as special anymore. If everyone can make similar performance, car brands have to stand out in other ways.
“Drivetrain” is the set of components that deliver power from the engine/motor to the wheels, including things like the transmission and final drive. In this discussion, the host uses it to talk about how EV power delivery could become less of a brand differentiator.
Carbon fiber is a lightweight, high-strength composite material commonly used in performance cars to reduce mass. The segment implies that using carbon fiber (instead of heavier materials) is one way brands can stand out when drivetrain performance is less unique.
EV means electric vehicle. Instead of a gas engine, it uses an electric motor powered by a battery.
Concept
rage baiting
Rage baiting is when something is posted to make people really mad or upset so they keep watching or sharing. The host is saying car talk might be getting shaped by that.
Zeekr is an electric-car brand. The host is talking about a ride in one of their vehicles as part of the discussion about self-driving and vehicle design.
Waymo is a company that builds self-driving technology. In this segment, they’re described as letting some regular people ride in their cars in a few cities.
Concept
select members of the public
It means the self-driving service isn’t open to everyone yet—only a limited group of normal people. That helps the company learn how it performs in everyday situations.
An unprotected left turn is when you turn left without a special arrow telling you it’s safe. The car has to find a safe opening in oncoming traffic and turn without causing a problem.
A roundabout is a circular intersection where cars go around in a loop. The car has to enter at the right time and keep a steady, safe speed while navigating the curve.
The “magic problem” is when people assume the car just works perfectly by itself, like magic. The point here is that real autonomy still involves human work and real-world handling, and the vehicle felt more grounded than a gimmick.
Serviceability means how easy it is to get to parts of the car when something needs fixing. If a car is designed for serviceability, a mechanic can work on it faster and with less hassle.
In autonomous vehicles, sensors are the hardware that “sees” and measures the world—commonly cameras, radar, and lidar. Their placement matters because it affects what the vehicle can detect and how consistently it can do so from different angles.
Club style seating means the seats are arranged so passengers face each other, like in a lounge. It’s meant to make the back seat feel more social and comfortable.
The Toyota Prius is one of the first mass-market cars that used a hybrid system (gas + electric). The host is saying the early Prius generation was a big deal for how cars were designed and engineered in the 2000s.
This phrase means the big change from gas cars to electric cars. The host is asking whether that change has been a net positive overall, and how much it depends on how fast it happened.
“EV transition” just means the shift from gas cars to electric cars. The host is saying some of the early plans assumed adoption would be easier than it turned out to be.
LIVE
It's cyber-trucky and in that sense, it triggers impugnance.
It's a rage bait car.
It is a rage bait car.
Thank you.
That is actually perfectly said.
It is a rage bait car and we are in a rage bait era.
Hello and welcome to the Atonic Cast.
As always, I'm Alex Roy, the co-founder and general partner at New Industry Venture Capital
and founder of the Human Driving Association, which is going to come in bigly on this episode.
And I'm Ed Niedermeyer.
I'm the author of Ludicrously Unvarnished Story of Tesla Motors and Elon Take the Wheel,
which is now available for pre-order releasing December 1.
And I'm Kirsten Clarissa, transportation editor at TechCrunch and the only one who appears
to be dressed fully today in non-pajama or robe-like clothing.
We listen.
We're recording on the weekend.
We're all lucky to be here as far as I'm concerned.
Hey, will you move the mic a little bit away from your mattress?
You're coming in hot and not just in what you're saying.
Okay, Alex.
Yeah.
Ed is holding a karaoke mic right now.
He appears to be traveling maybe.
I'm on the move.
So I wanted to discuss the big topic of the day.
Before we do, have either of you guys seen the new horror movie Back Rooms?
No, I have not.
No.
Okay, it's brilliant.
I won't say anything about it.
You got to see it right away because it's an important piece of sociopolitical cultural
commentary and I'm going to leave it at that because it has a lot to do with transportation.
We'll get to that.
Interesting.
Maybe next week.
Highly relevant.
It sounds like a future topic for a future episode.
As you say this, it dovetails a bit with the movie Chud and the movie Us, the Jordan
Peel movie and the movie Cube and I'm going to stop right there.
Okay.
Okay.
My friends, I want to talk about, it could be one topic.
It could be the Ferrari Luce.
Everyone's talked about it, so we might as well talk about it too.
Yeah, I think so.
Look, I think what's important about us talking about it is that 99% of comments have been
about how it looks and whether or not, how that's not great for the Ferrari brand.
I want to talk about it in the context of human driven versus autonomous vehicle design.
Okay.
Before we do that, can I just...
You should talk about what you just did.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe it's somewhat related, but actually it's a little bit different.
I mean, I took an economic view of it, which is Ferrari is in a very interesting place
in that, first of all, most of Ferrari owners own at least one other Ferrari.
They have massive profit margins on each vehicle they make.
They do not need to...
Yeah.
Don't they make you buy a used one before they will even sell you a new one?
Yeah.
They're highly selective.
Yeah.
They basically are like, you're not ready for the brand new one.
Why don't you try this entry one first?
And so there's a lot of cashier around it, and my whole take was it really...
So one of our senior reporters, Sean O'Kane, wrote, the Ferrari Luce is not for you, which
was a great headline and basically it's like $650,000 and there's many reasons why it's
not for you.
My take is it really doesn't matter if people hate the Ferrari Luce because it will be successful
anyway.
That is my prediction.
That is my take.
It has nothing to do with autonomy.
It just has to do with the economics of it.
Alex may be familiar with the version of this take to translate it into the language of
your people, Alex.
What Kirsten is trying to say here, I believe, is number go up, bro.
Number go up.
Try harder.
Number go up.
What do you mean?
In the words of Robert Downey Jr.'s character in Tropic Thunder, my people, what do you
mean my people?
What do you mean by that?
What are you saying?
I didn't say anything to the audience.
I think we have a smart enough audience to put this down.
So, I will say this, Cybertruck had to be successful.
Also a hated, polarized design had to sell multiples of a lot more to be successful.
Ferrari Luce, at least it's not a fucking Cybertruck.
Yeah.
And also, it doesn't need to sell hundreds of thousands of them.
It needs to sell like a couple thousand and people will buy them and so it'll be fine.
Okay.
Kirsten, who is the customer for the Ferrari Luce?
Well, it'll likely be an existing Ferrari owner.
There are going to be people who want it because it's the first and different.
I think that there are going to be new Ferrari newcomers who are of the tech bro sphere, who
are all going to be recently very rich because there's a bunch of IPOs coming and I think
that their first customers are going to be people connected to AI labs.
That's my prediction.
Interesting.
Because it's so different, it's going to be two different people.
The longtime Ferrari owners who just are interested in the controversy and what it represents,
and then a lot of new people in the Ferrari brand who are much more associated with Silicon
Valley.
So, I mean, a few years ago, Alex, this is the buyer of the Ferrari Luce, someone who
would have bought a Tesla Plaid, which is A, you can no longer buy and B has been Pass
A for several years now and this is just a new and more like, this is a Tesla that brings
things to the table that Tesla couldn't bring to the table.
Okay.
It's also a lot more expensive.
I mean, I mean, remember years and ago, Alex, you talked about vice
signaling and virtue signaling and you compared the only other brand that you could compare
it to Tesla vice and virtue signaling was Ferrari owners.
So now they're joining.
Well, yes, but like the context in which I brought up virtue and vice signaling is that
I said that Tesla is the first, not the first, but it's really the only car brand that successfully
positioned itself such that one can virtue signal or vice signal, depending on your point
of view out of the in the same car.
And so you can say, oh, is that again now?
Yeah.
Well, however, there's no vice signaling in a Ferrari Luce, because it's neither news, newsflash,
Alex, there's no virtue signaling in a Tesla anymore.
That's actually not true.
Because you could say, I'm in an electric, go back 10, 10, 12 years and
you get a Tesla Model S. You could say, I'm in an electric car that can go zero to 62
seconds.
And that's, that's the two sides of the coin.
A Ferrari, like out of the gate, let's imagine the brand didn't exist.
It just, just the thing just showed up.
Like there's no vice signaling out of this, because any electric performance is commoditized
in electric cars.
So there's no vice signaling in this car, because it neither looks fast or sexy, and
nor is it differentiated by its performance.
And so it's only differentiated by its brand and by its cost.
So you could vice signal, I guess that you spent $640,000 on it.
To me, the vice is the cost.
To me, the vice is the cost and also that it is so hated.
So it's almost like it's, it's really, it's symbolic to buy it.
It's cyber trucky and in that sense, it triggers impugn, it's a rage bait car.
It is a rage bait car.
Thank you.
That is actually perfectly said.
It is a rage bait car and we are in a rage bait era.
So I, I actually, based on that, I'm completely changing my entire thinking.
That thing is going to sell like hotcakes.
Hotcakes.
All right.
So what I'm surprised neither of you have said, and I really, I thought Kirsten
thought this was what you were going to say.
And in your newsletter was that this thing will sell like hotcakes in China.
And it does.
And that's good enough because if it sells zero cars outside China, it's
mission accomplished for Ferrari.
Do you believe is that?
Yeah.
I mean, it would have been good for me to have been more regionally specific.
I actually think that it'll be like it'll show up in Silicon Valley too as a
rage bait machine, but I think you're correct.
And that China, I could see it being, being very much adopted there.
There'll be, there'll be plenty of these are on Miami too.
Don't know.
I don't think so.
But here, here's, here's what I find really fascinating about this is that if
you look at the sales of electric sports cars, but it's like hyper cars,
like Rimac concept one, they, that was not a business.
Rimac and Evara, that was not a business, but the engineering was so great
that Mati Rimac could, could, you know, parlay that into licensing and sales of
his technology.
And then eventually, you know, selling the company to VW a group,
but can we see what we got into a business?
Yeah.
And this is for him and he's, and he's a genius and I wish him well.
And interestingly, he's also on the side.
That's why I think that Mati Rimac is probably the most, the most consequential
person in the automotive world as a corporate leader, other than Elon Musk.
Cause he's the only one who, who's both, who knows anything about really deeply
himself, electric vehicle engineering and the psychology of like humans and
human driving.
Cause he knows it.
He's from the Bugatti side, which is the ultimate expression of like human
driving and the electric vehicle side, Rimac, but the, but he couldn't design
and sell a car, like an electric supercar that, that's sold.
And that's really, I think it's really telling.
And also, you know, Lamborghini,
We know the sales figures on the Navara.
I mean, I thought, I mean, it was a $1.2 million vehicle, first of all.
Like how many do they need to sell?
Not that many.
And yet it's not, I have my understanding.
There's a, it's very much an open secret that that car sold very poorly, even,
even by the modest expectations of a 1.2 million.
Okay.
We also know that, um, you know, there is really no electric, you know,
supercar, a hypercar that one can point to be like, well, that, that work, like
that was a market.
And you can look in a Koenigsegg and Pagani, uh, they, they know, they know
what the demand is and none of them sell a pure electric.
And there's a reason for it.
And so Lamborghini looked at, you know, a pure electric and they decided to cancel
it.
And so you can see what is the market there for a pure electric car at the
highest levels, also for a puppy that.
Yeah, I was going to say, editorializing is, uh, something.
So, all right.
So that's interesting because if you look at what, like, what does brand mean?
What, what does brand even matter?
And you look at this thing, you say, if Apple had been the brand on the hood,
what, and the price had been right, would this have sold like, like hot cakes?
And I think it would have.
Do you agree with that assumption?
Yeah.
So A, I absolutely agree that B, I would go a step further and say what Ferrari
should have done here.
The problem was, was making a Ferrari.
The problem was that Ferrari didn't start a new brand for this vehicle.
If this, if this was the Lucha brand, if it was Lucha by Ferrari, and this was
the start of a new, you know, probably small, but, but a distinct brand, right?
The way Maserati, everyone knows that Maserati has Ferrari engines.
It's, it's not a Ferrari, but it's sort of like the junior.
And like Lucha, like if it had been a new brand, everybody who has a problem
with the Lucha, the problem that they have in some form is that it's not that
it's a bad car, none of us, it seems like a fine car.
It's, it's a bad Ferrari.
That's the, that's the problem.
So it is entirely a brand problem.
Like, I don't think it even looks bad.
Okay, but let's just say that it was, let's just say it was Lucha by Ferrari.
What is it compelling enough on its own that people would buy it?
Yes.
Okay.
For, for a 100000 dollars.
Yeah, not 600 and fifty dollars.
Listen, so the other way to think about this is, is, okay, if you're in charge
of making an electric Ferrari, how do you make it differently?
This is, I think the way that people should be, should be asking, you know,
thinking about this problem, because I don't think there is a better way
to make an electric Ferrari than the Lucha.
Oh, of course there is.
Of course there is.
What, okay, sorry, give us some, give us some tractable insight into your product.
Like, no, no, I need Alex to spec out a better electric Ferrari.
Okay, can I just make one comment?
Why don't make it look like a Nissan Leaf?
Okay, go ahead.
Okay, so 10 years ago I gave a presentation I probably couldn't give to,
maybe I could give it in this political climate without being canceled about
car design and autonomous vehicles, but you could actually conflate EV and
autonomous because a lot of the same stupid suggestions been made about both,
which is that in the future, all vehicles would be connected,
autonomous, shared, and electric, and so I gave the presentation in Tel Aviv
back in the day, and basically said this, cars are transportation or transformation,
and it's a choice for every buyer, and if all cars and all people,
if all people just need a transportation and all, that's all you need to sell,
then every car on earth would be a variation of the Prius, you know, scaled up in size.
And, but we know that's not true, and that the case argument connected autonomous,
shared, and electric for the future of cars and car ownership going away is like
the stupidest argument ever, and all the consultants selling in have been,
should return all the money because that that, and I use a picture of a Ferrari as an example,
that Ferrari as a brand even exists and prospers is proof that the fantasy of giving up shared car
ownership just for autonomy will never happen, because the emotional need of buyers is to crave
the transformational aspect of a car, and in fact, beyond a Ferrari would be, I guess,
a Lamborghini, a Citadour Lamborghini, because that is a car that doesn't even serve a
transportation purpose, it's meant to be parked, known that you own one,
and so if you, to distill these two paths of product in automotive design,
yes, a funnier, easier lens to understand would be like cars either get more sex,
deliver product of that sex. That's it, that's all cars, and so many brands have been diluted
because they've been trying to have it both ways. So eventually brands that were just have more sex
brands, just made sports cars, are making SUVs, and they do that by tacking on the sports car
front end to an SUV form factor. Go on, Ed. Okay. Tell me I'm wrong. No, no, Alex,
you mentioned, you said the brand dilution, which is something that I've been thinking about in
the light of, because this is something that like used to get talked about on car form when I started
writing about like cars in 2008, like this was like a big thing because Porsche was just starting
to dilute the brand with their SUVs, with Cayenne, right? And this was, this was sacrilege, and
according to the brand dilution narrative, right, like making this would eventually erode the Porsche
brand to the point where it didn't mean anything, and then it couldn't, it could no longer be monetized
through products like the Cayenne that were not true to its essence of the 911 and the Boxster,
right? We have evidence on this. We've run this experiment for decades now,
and there are more Porsche SUVs than ever. They, the company, its entire value is, you know,
fully dependent on these products. And is there evidence, maybe there is, I don't study the numbers
close enough, is there real evidence that the brand is being diluted? It seems, I think it's
bigger than ever and more profitable than ever. So I think when we talk about brand dilution,
you know, we have to be careful because this concept is great in theory, but in practice,
the data doesn't suggest that it's real. Well, are you, well, so companies like Porsche,
so I just looked it up. Macan is number one, then Cayenne, then 911 in terms of sales. So,
but Macan is aspirational. It's, it's also the SUV. It's exactly what I know that people complained
about, but it is, it's aspirational. It broadens the market. Right. But so that's, I guess the
question is, is dilution of the brand tied to like that's being cast as a negative, but can you
have dilution of the brand while also having like a lot of broad sales? Cause it's, is it the cache
that Alex is talking about? Dilution implies that you're giving something up and it's not clear
what that thing actually is. I think what, I think what people are giving up is that all the fancy
911 owners and especially the ones who have Targas are annoyed that all these normies can access
a Porsche. I'm not annoyed. I'm not annoyed because the Macan's good. So that's the brand.
Here's the thing. The, we know that Ferrari owners, current owners, and actually, and we know that
nobody wants the hybrid Ferraris that have been coming out in recent years, like their valuations
are like, they depreciate like 30, 50% like within a year or two. Whereas the pure Songe has actually
been selling up not that badly. And also, I mean, I'm sorry to say people said it looked like a Mazda
and yet it has presence. It's cool. Like on the street, it's cool. And it's also gas. So we know
from the sales of the valuations of pure gas Ferraris of recent years, three, four-year-old
Ferraris, they're they're trading for above their original sticker price. And so I think the Luce
fills a unique and peculiar spot in the history of this experiment that you're correct about, Ed,
about the Cayenne. But it's a uniquely bad place in that it doesn't fulfill the aspirational needs
of people who've never owned a Ferrari before. It just doesn't. Outside of China, outside of China.
And so it, but the lens I'm most fascinated about is the whole lens of human driving and the
eyepace evolved, you know, a generation or two. And Jaguar had kept going like down that path.
You could, it could have looked like this, which is better. It does. It does look like it was
intended to be autonomous. Yeah. Absolutely. Which is, I'm afraid to say, if a vehicle,
let me say the thing about Ferrari in the brain. Oh my gosh. Okay. If a Ferrari makes you not want
to have sex, then it's not a, then that's a problem. And by the way, it's not, that's not like
this only for the audience. It's the driver. If the driver looks at it and says, I'm going to
have more sex. I'm going to drive my have more sex vehicle and people are going to see me and
they're going to agree. Well, then that's a Ferrari. But if anyone disagrees with that chain of logic,
it's not a Ferrari. I just realized what this reminds me of and why what you just said is perfect.
Look up right now an image of the car in demolition, man.
I am going to look it up. And then I'm going to, let's wait for the audience to hear the
reaction to the same. Hang on a second car. Here we go. The 1992 GM ultra light concept. Is that
what you're talking about? The movie was Sylvester Stallone. Yeah. Yeah. There it is. Oh yeah. It's
bad. Right. So to your point in when this movie came out in 1993, that was like the image that
people had of like what the future of autonomy would like. It would be, it was an autonomous vehicle,
remember, or handled some of the driving and it was supposed to look like the future. So anyway,
that's just popped into my head. Well, you know what Kip Ewing says. He says,
if you have to explain why or how it's a Ferrari, you failed. That's it. And I agree. I agree.
So, okay. So I think the Ferrari Lucha is fascinating because we, and I've ranted about
this before on this show, but like the whole idea underlying or at least the way we talk about this
whole EV transition, right? It's the idea that an EV is a one to one replacement for a gas car.
And like it can be, right? Like depending on your lifestyle and your context, it can be,
but they are fundamentally different things. And we paper over this all the time.
And I think what this illustrates is how fundamental that Ferrari is so rooted
in the extreme aspects of internal combustion and cars and like its value is historical. And so,
of course, it's rooted in a material reality that has no relationship with a modern electric car
like the Lucha. So to me, it's a question of like, is that brand something that is portable
beyond it? Right? Because to me, the Lucha shouldn't be thought of as another Ferrari car
because it isn't that really at all. What it is is a very, very special version of like a Ferrari
baseball hat. Wow. That sucks for Ferrari. It's an extension of the Ferrari brand. Well, no,
because, but again, I mean, this is not a car of you. And this gets to my point and my question
to you earlier, Alex, is that like, I don't think you can make a better electric Ferrari than this.
I don't know. Of course you could. Well, I can like help me understand how because
what it sounds like what they're doing. Let me tell you what Ferrari could do, which would have been
crazy. They could have just, they could have taken, let's say the 308, 328 body
and just released like electric Resto mod versions. No, and they wouldn't do that. No,
in a hard way. How do you get out of that? How do you get out of that? No, the packaging,
it doesn't matter. It does matter. The weirdness of the shape of the Lucha is because there's a
big battery pack in there. You don't have enough friends who own, collect Ferraris, bro. I'm telling
you that people, if they were selling million dollar Ferrari 308, electric 308 Resto mods,
they couldn't, they, they would be trading for $5 million a day after they roll off a lot.
Okay. So I have one answer to my question that, that how could they have made this a better Ferrari
and it's totally based on owning a BMW i3, which I love to drive because it's an electric car
that is lightweight and tossable. It was 3000. Ferrari made the Ferrari F3
for a million. Actually they probably could sell an unlimited number of them.
They should have made the Lucha. So, so, so, okay. So the problem right is that,
as you said this right at the beginning of the show is that, is that performance is commodified.
How do you be a Ferrari in a world where performance is commodified? It doesn't make
sense. You cannot, you cannot do it. Not, not true. And again, pretending that there's a better
way to do this. I think first of all, cost is dangerous to be beautiful. And have you seen
the, the Angeles Death Highway Instagram video? Have you seen those? No. Okay. It's, it's a,
you have to, after you gotta watch it. So this is a terrible video where they make fun of just
car culture in general, but they have one about this. And if you look at, at a car
and you're like, wow, whoever's in that car, they're going to go have more sex. And maybe I want to
join them. Okay. Mission accomplished. And I'm saying, you can laugh at this joke and maybe if it
doesn't, but that is the purpose of Lamborghinis and Ferraris. And
and McLaren's, although you're not going to get more to attend that. Okay. So if, if the performance
of the drive train is commodified, where can you as a, as a performance, you know, brand like,
like, well, I would say lightweight and they didn't do that. Right. Like, I think if they
don't a carbon fiber, so
Lotus would be the biggest company on earth. People don't buy, dude, Ferrari aren't Ferraris
aren't even the best performing cars anymore. I'm saying this is the problem with, right? If the EV
drive train is commodified, then you have to stand out somewhere else and just doing another
aluminum bodied big, heavy car. Like that, that's, I think one of the places where Ferrari actually
made a real mistake here. The design and one thing I'll say about the design too,
never judge a modern car design until you've seen it in person. The surfacing and things
that, that, that they're able to do now. Like you can't, the presence of a car
does not come through in a photograph the way it used to. No, it's true. It's true. I will say this.
Alex, you said they stand, if the power train is commodified, how do you stand out? You said beauty.
And then I will go back to this era that we're in also rage baiting. And it could be the opposite.
And now we'll stand up to time is another question. So, you know,
I want to, I want to say here too, I'm, I'm known as a hater, but, but I've been low-key
standing the Cadillac Celestic for some time now. And again, this is a great example of a car that
you cannot understand until you've seen it in person. I've only actually seen the concept in
person. I'm not actually seeing it. I got to see it in person. Well, I got to see a prototype of it.
I think the lucha and it'll be interesting to see when the Jaguar does their other kind of
bombastic long front hood, very different kind of approach to this thing. I think that will,
will in light of the lucha look better. These are other ways to do it. In both cases, people are
like, oh, they're expensive and, and weird. And like the drive train or like the power, the numbers,
the performance numbers are all like not the greatest possible. Nobody cares. The performance
is enough for everybody. Nobody needs more performance than you can get out of from any
electric vehicle company, basically at this point. And it really is going to come down to presence
on a lot of these things. And like I said, I think the Cadillac Celestic was like,
you got to give Cadillac credit for seeing that opportunity of doing something big and bombastic
that when you see it on the streets, you're like, maybe I don't want to sleep with them,
but like, I definitely want to do business with whoever's driving that car kind of.
I want to sleep with the owner of this all stick, but you might, you might want to marry them though.
Yeah. Or like, or like, you know, give them an elevator pitch on your startup.
Okay. Can we just do a segue to the point that you were starting to meet Alex about
sort of how things relate to vehicle design for autonomy? Because I had a ride,
don't get mad. I was in Phoenix for like a half a second. I did not have time to hang out or
I would have given you a ring, but I had a first ride in the Zeekr renamed the Ojai
that Waymo is now opening up to select members of the public in three cities.
And did you enjoy it? So what I'm most intrigued and interested in right now is,
and we've seen this vehicle multiple times, but now it's a little bit, you know, finessed more,
is the design of it and how that relates to Waymo's business and what it means for autonomy
in general. Now the ride itself, they need, they've got some kinks. They got to smooth out a little
bit. It didn't do anything crazy, handled unprotected left just fine, but the suspension, it was like
pretty nice. It was a fairly smooth ride. Entering into or exiting out of some of the roundabouts
did fine, but there were a couple of deceleration moments where it was, you know, through a big turn
where it kind of did that little stutter break where, you know, it wasn't as smooth as let's say
someone who'd been driving for 15 years. It kind of reminded me of someone who was,
you know, newer to the vehicle and driving it, you know, where they're not really sure how to gauge
those turns, but otherwise it was fine. But what really intrigued me is the whole form factor of it
all, being in it, how, you know, you interacted with it, how you approached got in
and out of it, and what that means for the autonomous vehicle industry. And I guess for me,
it was positive because it felt like they were growing up a little bit and it somehow
strips out the novelty factor and addresses some real accessibility issues and addresses
just use like how you would use this vehicle. Like the, what is the use case for an autonomous
vehicle? And I felt like it addressed that. So you liked it. You know, I have a hard time giving
my opinions on these things, but I would say that it's a, I would say it was, it was, I was happy
that it did two things. It didn't feel like a novelty car and it didn't feel like what I think
is an issue. And I kind of want to write about it. An issue in the robotoxy industry or autonomous
vehicles in general is like the magic problem, which is, you know, it just magically does all
these things and we don't have any idea that humans are involved in this. And this vehicle
seems to represent like a little bit of a maturity, I would say. So you liked it.
Sure. Hey, look, the question is this, if a Zooks, a OHI and a Tesla Model Y were all 100%
safe and free, which one would you want to ride in every day? Okay, every day.
Oh, fine. What would you pick on any given day? Price the same, that is equally safe.
What are you taking? I could see, oh, so I could see taking the OHI for,
anytime I was with other people, anytime I was going to the airport, for sure, Zooks feels like
something I do when I'm, it feels a little bit more novelty. And I think that that's just
the design of it, you know, like, it feels like a party bus, right? Like, I'm going to take the
Zooks when I'm going out at night with my friends. And I'm going to take the Zooker when I'm going
to the airport. And maybe I'll take the Tesla Robotoxy when I'm just by myself and I'm in a,
like a dense urban city. Are you okay with that answer? Are you? Yeah, totally fine. Yeah, and
you'll never, there's no Model Y in that equation. Edward, what do I know? I just said Tesla. I said
the Tesla. I think the, I think the Zooks is a very cool vehicle and it feels special.
And yeah, I could see either going out with like on a date or with a small group of friends or
you're going on a date. Wait, you have a, wait, a new date? What? So if you're cheating on your
partner, you take the Zooks? On a date. Yeah, that's right. That was exactly how I was trying to
put it. The, the, or, or like if I wanted to work, like if I just wanted to be like on my laptop,
it's kind of small. And like, and I think the issue with the Zooks is that there's not,
there's quite a bit of glass, but there's not like great outward visibility because of the
way it's set up. Whereas the Ojai, you really see out of it really well. And so I think the,
the Ojai is like big advantage, you know, in somewhere like San Francisco for sure,
where people are taking Waymo's, you know, and in a lot of cities now, when Waymo goes,
like it's a thing, like go ride the Waymo as, you know, as a sightseeing thing or a way to
experience somewhere. I think of all of those options, the outward visibility on the Ojai and
pretty much any sea is, is pretty great. And I wasn't putting Tesla last. I was just putting
it in categories. So I can rank it the same in really dense urban areas. I could see like the
Zooks or the Model Y being like, you know, just jumping in, just solo for Phoenix, Atlanta,
like going to the airport, multiple people, kids, I would take the Zika all day long.
I want to be clear as well that I did not engage with the Tesla part of your hypothetical,
because I don't find it serious enough to be worth the effort.
Okay, what about you, Alex? You haven't been in the Ojai yet, have you?
No, I'm sure it's great. I mean, that's what Waymo does. They do, they do UX. That's great.
It's not that different than the one we all sat in together.
Yeah, there's a few little things. I mean,
the big thing, I think the serviceability, Ed, you and I talked about this,
the way that the sensors can clearly be like, there's fewer sensors actually, but the,
but they're the way they're positioned. There's like, as the way the doors open,
I think is really interesting. Unlike a mini van, so the Chrysler Pacifica, which was the
one big sliding door, which mini vans, you know, like, if you want to have thousands of people
coming in and out, that door, people can trip on that whole thing. These open like gondola doors,
and they kind of stagger step, and there's big ass buttons, you just punch it, and it's like,
kind of opens like that. Very flat tons of headroom, braille on the, everything's labeled like a door,
like it's all very much meant. Love to see the braille everywhere. Yeah, that's really cool.
Very much meant to be. Get that on a Tesla. Yeah, it's very much meant to be used by many,
many people. Then there's other little details that I don't think we noticed in the concept,
like when you're sitting in the back seat, and there's the two screens right next to it, there's
a little hook that you can pop out from the back of the seat, and you can just put your, you know,
that I think are, is it like the most amazing autonomous vehicle I've ever been in? No,
but I don't know if I've, you know, I think it has lots of storage space in the back
that's pretty easy to use. So I definitely see a use case for it, and I definitely see how they
made it for very clearly lots of use to be kind of beaten up, to be abused by people, essentially.
Well, the answer, my answer to the question, I'll tell you, this is, I would, I don't care which
one shows up, I'll take any of them, how, except for the Zooks, which I would not want to take to
the airport. Just, I don't want to sit facing backwards. I wanted to ask you, Alex, I feel like,
I feel like you're, you're potentially like an advocate for club style seating because it's
cool and you love cool stuff, even when it's not always entirely practical. But you're not, you
don't think club seating is going to win out because that's the difference. That's one of the
key differences between the Ohio and the Zooks is that with Ohio, everyone is seating forward,
and the Zooks, you have the club style seating. What do you, what do you think?
No, airlines already know that people don't want to sit facing backwards. And there's many studies
suggest that it's better for safety and yada, yada. People still, they just don't want to.
And it makes you feel like you're in shared transportation or public transportation,
which is fine because I support buses and trains, but not when I'm on the highway at those speeds,
and I can see what's going on outside. Just no, I don't buy it. So in a train, so
you don't like, you, you pick the seat where it's moving, you're facing forward.
Yeah. Yeah. Unless I'm on this, if I'm on the subway, I don't care. I just don't, I just,
I just don't buy it. I think there's too much cultural, you know, baggage with seat configurations
and forward facing configurations and cultural stuff around facing each other. And in a shared
scenario, nobody wants to face each other unless they're part of the same, like social unit,
like facing family. It's not buying it. Look, I wish everyone the best, but no.
I want you to get in the Ohio since they're doing select members. I'm sure you could get
a special invite. And you're in Phoenix to try it out. And so the next time we're on the show
that you can, you can give your real opinion on it. I mean, I, you know, I ride Wamos all the
time because they stage right by my house, which I love. So my ETAs are always like one minute to
get one is the best pickup schedule ever. Edward, I want to come back for a second to the,
your Tesla point of view, no surprises and what you're going to say. But do you,
do you even acknowledge or accept now that Tesla Model S is, is, is gone that it is the most
important car of the 21st century? Alex, if you go back in the archives of this show, you'll,
you'll, I've acknowledged it's important. I would, I, you know, I wouldn't say the most
important car of the 21st century. We've got a lot left. If it is what is
the Prius is definitely a competitor. I would say that the second generation Prius in particular is,
is a, is a, one of the classics of 21st century automotive, not just design, but engineering.
But you know, look, we got a lot of, we got a lot of century left. But yes, the model S was
clearly like, I've never denied it. In fact, I've, I've multiple times over the years explicitly
acknowledged it is a very important historically significant vehicle that having been said,
I would be fascinated to see, I doubt that Tesla could even produce this if they wanted to,
but a really, really good and accurate program level accounting of the economics of that,
of that program of the Model S program over the years, because I very much suspect that it,
it was a money loser. But again, it doesn't matter.
Because it doesn't matter for better or for worse. We live in, you know, a political
economic system that requires things to actually the businesses to actually make money. This is
okay. Let me rephrase my question then. Is the world a better place for it having existed?
Oh, that's a much more complicated question. I would be much more easy. I would, I would much
more readily acknowledge that it's the most important car of the 21st century,
that the world is a better place because of it. In fact, I would say it's pretty easy for me to
say that to get to a no on that second question. Yeah, but Ed, without it, you wouldn't have two
books. You know what? That's a sacrifice I would be more than willing to make. What would you be
doing with all your time? Oh, so, so many things, Kirsten. So many things. Do you believe the world
is better for the electric vehicle revolution on any timeline?
These are very complicated questions to really simple yes and no questions. Always the hardest
ones. Listen, Alex, I am, I think electric cars are great. I think that the challenges that we're
running into with adoption are largely derived from, you know, sort of the assumptions that we've
made because that Tesla has really inculcated into our whole conception of, of an EV transition.
We talked about some of those earlier on the show. We've talked about them on past shows as
well. So, you know, yes, but I think we could have done better. We made better progress towards
true electrification than simply putting it all on the shoulders of Tesla. And I think we've paid
a very, very heavy price impact for that strategy. In the absence of the Tesla Model S or Tesla's
company, what would have been the vehicle or precipitating products that might have got,
that might have done a job, not even the same job, any job towards it?
The Ferrari Lucha. And with that, thanks for listening to another episode of the Atonic
Cast. Oh my God.
About this episode
Riffing on “rage bait” cyber-truck energy, the hosts pivot to Ferrari’s rumored Luce EV and why it’s unlikely to win on autonomy alone. They argue Ferrari’s EV strategy is about economics, niche volume, and brand identity—who the buyer is, how the badge lands, and whether the car can stand on its own without looking like a generic EV. Along the way, they connect EV performance commoditization, licensing success stories like Rimac, and the growing maturity of autonomy rides.
Alex offends everyone with his POV on automotive design, Ed wants to talk Tesla, and Kirsten brings it back around to Waymo, Zoox, and actual analysis of the AV/EV business.
