Chris Mealy (Prancing Horses) shares how he reconnected with the Bachman family and helped bring their historic Ferrari collection to market with Mecum, including behind-the-scenes authentication and the meticulous paperwork that made the cars so credible. He breaks down why the sale reshaped Ferrari pricing—especially the “center of gravity” effect and how color/options now drive results. They also discuss Ferrari production-number myths, manual vs paddle demand, standout auction surprises, and what today’s buyers want in an increasingly tech-and-hybrid world.
This week on The Collector Car Podcast, I sit down with Chris Miele of Prancing Horses of Nashville to break down the historic Bachman Ferrari sale at Mecum and what it signals for the broader Ferrari market. We dive into the significance of the collection, standout results, shifting buyer behavior, and where values may be heading next for both blue-chip classics and modern Ferraris. If you're watching the Ferrari market closely, this is one you don't want to miss.
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"But anyways, it's a lot of stuff going on, especially as it relates to the release of the book, The Enthusiast Guide to Collector Cars. That is coming up quickly."
Collector cars are cars people keep and buy because they’re special—like rare, historic, or really desirable. The episode is about how those cars get talked about and valued.
“Collector cars” refers to vehicles that are kept, bought, and sold primarily for their historical value, rarity, condition, and desirability—not just everyday transportation. In this episode, the discussion is tied to how enthusiast knowledge and documentation (like photos and sales history) affect value.
"It's almost 400 pages because there's 140 photographs provided by Arm Sotheby's and others in the book."
Arm Sotheby’s is an auction company. When they provide photos or catalog info, it can help document a car’s history and make it easier to understand why it’s valuable.
Arm Sotheby’s is a major auction house brand associated with Sotheby’s and the ARM/auction ecosystem. In collector-car circles, auction photography and catalog material can become part of the historical record that helps establish provenance and market context.
"I distinctly remember when we first met because I was judging at Cavalino. I think you were representing an F40 if I'm not, if I'm correct."
Cavalino is a big Ferrari event where collectors and owners get together. People use it to connect, show cars, and talk shop.
Cavalino is shorthand for Cavalino Classic, a major Ferrari-focused gathering. It’s a key venue for Ferrari owners, dealers, and collectors to meet, show cars, and build relationships.
"And it was actually through Simone Scudoni. Everybody knows the Scudoni name because they do all the luggage for Ferrari and a bunch of other brands."
Scudoni is a company that makes Ferrari-branded luggage and accessories. Here it’s mentioned because it helped connect the people involved in servicing the cars.
Scudoni is a specialty company known for Ferrari-related luggage and accessories. The speaker uses it to explain how the reintroduction happened—through a shared connection with Simone Scudoni.
"Yeah. And I remember one time visiting you at your dealership and you had their F-50 in the back. And you're like, hey, that's a rare car right there."
The Ferrari F50 is an extremely rare Ferrari supercar. When one shows up with very low mileage, collectors pay a lot more because it’s basically “saved” from wear.
The Ferrari F50 is a rare, high-performance mid-engine supercar from Ferrari. In collector-car discussions, mileage and provenance (who owned it and how it was used) can heavily influence value, especially for low-mile examples.
"No, no, no, no. It had actually 250 miles. 250. I know it was crazy. Yeah. And it was low miles. I mean, it was actually the lowest one that I've ever sold..."
“Low miles” is a major value driver in collectible cars because it suggests less wear and often lower likelihood of deferred maintenance. The episode contrasts low-mile U.S. cars with the rest of the world, implying mileage expectations affect pricing.
"And the cars were really optioned well. They were well maintained. You knew how well they took care of the cars."
“Optioned well” means the car has the good factory features. Collectors often want specific options, so those cars can be worth more.
“Optioned well” means the car was ordered with desirable factory options (trim, interior, performance-related equipment, etc.). For collectors, the right options can make a car more desirable and easier to value, sometimes outweighing small differences in mileage.
"And the cars were really optioned well. They were well maintained. You knew how well they took care of the cars."
“Well maintained” means the car was cared for and serviced properly. Collectors trust that kind of history more than a car with unknown upkeep.
“Well maintained” highlights service history and care as a value factor. For rare exotics like the Ferrari F50, maintenance quality can reduce buyer risk and support higher prices.
"The cars were always driven and the U.S. buyers were always kind of hung up on this mileage thing. But the rest of the world would kind of look at us and give us that kind of smirk and that wink."
They’re talking about how people judge cars based on how many miles are on them. The speaker says U.S. buyers cared a lot, while other buyers sometimes assumed low-mile cars weren’t really used.
The “mileage thing” refers to how mileage expectations differ between markets and how that affects pricing. The speaker claims U.S. buyers were especially focused on low mileage, while other regions viewed U.S. cars with skepticism.
"And then, you know, now you're starting to see, as time has passed on, color is really what is taking precedent in everything. If it's a quote, unquote, off-color car, it's not the normal red, you'll see that those cars are really getting the party."
An “off-color car” is one painted in a less common color instead of the usual red. Collectors sometimes pay more for these because they stand out.
An “off-color car” is a car finished in a non-standard or less common exterior color (contrasted with “normal red” in the transcript). In collector markets, unusual colors can boost demand because they’re more distinctive and can be harder to find in specific models.
"But the flip side was they said, now everybody that has an Enzo, for instance, thinks that their cars worth $17 million. And, you know, then you had to really drill down on each car and say, OK, why did that car bring that number?"
“Drill down on each car” means you can’t just look at the model name and assume the price. You have to check the specific car’s history and condition to see why it sold for that amount.
“Drill down on each car” means evaluating the specific details that justify a price—such as condition, provenance/history, originality, mileage, and documentation. Even within the same model (like the Enzo), those factors can explain why one car sells for a certain number while another doesn’t.
"Was it the options? Was it because it was the last one that was produced for the US? These are the kind of things that, you know, when it doesn't always matter if it's a car, as you know,"
“Last one produced for the US” points to scarcity tied to production and market allocation. In collecting, end-of-run cars can command premiums because they’re the final examples of a specific configuration or import run.
"And, you know, we worked closely and, you know, we drilled down, hey, look, this was the last one produced in this. This was the second to the last."
“The last one produced” means it’s at the end of the run, so it’s rarer. Rarity like that often makes collectors want it more.
Discussing “the last one produced” highlights how production order and scarcity drive collector pricing. When an item is near the end of a run, buyers may treat it as a milestone example, increasing competitive bidding.
"Because the truth of the matter is Ferrari keeps that stuff really close to the vest versus other manufacturers.
You call a Porsche.
How many Riviera blue Carrera GTs did you make?"
It means Ferrari doesn’t share everything publicly. When people don’t know the full story, they often get more curious—and that can affect auction prices.
“Close to the vest” means Ferrari withholds details rather than sharing them openly. In auctions and collecting, limited transparency can increase mystique and speculation, which can influence bidding behavior.
"So, you know, you're working at an auction and you have a hot client that's there.
What do you think it's going to do?
And in your best estimate, you kind of have an idea."
A “hot client” is a buyer who really wants the car and is ready to pay more. If that person is bidding, the final price can rise fast.
A “hot client” is an especially motivated buyer who is likely to bid aggressively. In auction strategy, identifying that kind of bidder early can help explain why a car can blow past an expected number.
"And that's when I got with the Bachman family. And I said, look, you're going to have to authenticate these cars."
To authenticate a car means to get it checked and verified by experts. It’s basically proof that the car really is what the seller says it is. This matters because it affects how much buyers trust the car and what they’ll pay.
To “authenticate” a collector car means to verify its identity and correctness using documentation, inspection, and specialist/factory processes. Authentication reduces buyer risk and can materially affect auction outcomes because it addresses concerns about originality and authenticity. The speaker frames it as a necessary step after questions from the market.
"We did the full inspections, pulled off belly trays, you name it."
Belly trays are panels under the car that help protect important parts. Taking them off during an inspection lets you see what’s going on underneath.
Belly trays are underbody panels that cover and protect components beneath the car. In a deep inspection, removing or checking them helps reveal corrosion, leaks, damage, and condition of the undercarriage.
"because you and I go to Pebble, we're there every single year."
Pebble Beach is a famous car show where wealthy collectors go to look at and buy rare cars. The speaker is using it as an example of how buyer tastes can vary.
Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance is one of the most influential collector-car events in the U.S., where high-end buyers and sellers converge. The speaker uses it to explain how different crowds and preferences show up depending on the venue and day.
"But, you know, to answer your question, the market is there. These auctions are exposing it."
Auctions are where collectors bid on cars, and the final price shows what people are willing to pay. The point here is that auctions help reveal demand and pricing trends to more buyers.
Auctions are a key mechanism for setting collector-car prices because they reveal real-time demand. The speaker suggests that auction activity is “exposing” the market—meaning more buyers are seeing what’s available and what prices are being paid.
"But I mean, their cars were the best that I've ever seen. And some of the cars were restored again to fill them and buy the car new."
“Restored” means the car has been brought back toward original condition—often involving bodywork, paint, mechanical refreshes, and interior work. In classic Ferrari collecting, restoration quality and how much was done versus what remains original can strongly affect value.
"And that's why you see a lot of that. The guys that stood outside the box. I remember when we did a 16."
They mean people who didn’t choose the usual, predictable color combos. Those more unusual choices can make a car more interesting to collectors later.
This phrase refers to choosing less common specifications—like unusual colors or combinations—rather than the typical “safe” shades. In collector markets, standout factory specs can create stronger long-term demand.
"You have the cars from the 70s, the 365 GT4 BBs, the 512 BB."
This is a classic Ferrari V12 grand tourer. People collect it because it’s rare and has a big reputation, so it can be worth a lot.
The Ferrari 365 GT4 BB is a late-1960s/early-1970s-era grand touring car known for its V12 and distinctive design. In collector circles, it’s often treated as a “trophy asset” because of its limited production and strong historical appeal.
"You have the cars from the 70s, the 365 GT4 BBs, the 512 BB."
This is another famous classic Ferrari. Collectors like it because it’s special, rare, and historically important.
The Ferrari 512 BB is another iconic Ferrari V12-era mid-engine grand tourer. Like the 365 GT4 BB, it’s valued for its rarity, desirability, and place in Ferrari’s performance history.
"...a 550 Maranello and a 575 is an upgrade and everybody wanted the paddle shifts... Now, if you have a manual gearbox, 575 Maranello, it's worth a boatload of money more than just a paddle car..."
The 575 Maranello is a newer classic Ferrari V12 compared to the 550. In this market, a manual version is especially valuable because it’s rarer and more sought after.
The Ferrari 575 Maranello is the later V12 evolution of the Maranello line, and it’s often seen as a step up in performance and desirability. The episode emphasizes that a manual gearbox on a 575 Maranello can be worth significantly more than an F1-style paddle car.
"And I would request the hell out of them because I had a lot of Porsche customers. And at the time, Porsche customers were, you know, they always wanted those manual gearboxes."
They mention Porsche because Porsche buyers (in their experience) often want manual transmissions. That preference can make manual cars more valuable or easier to sell.
Porsche is brought up as the speaker’s customer base that strongly preferred manual transmissions. This matters because it shows how brand culture and buyer preferences can influence which drivetrain options get ordered and valued.
"There was a small, small, small issue with the chassis on the car. It was at some point in time, it was in an accident."
The chassis is the car’s main structure. If it’s bent or slightly misaligned, it can affect how the car handles and how correct it is for collectors.
The chassis is the car’s structural frame, and issues there can be a big deal on classic cars. Even small alignment problems can affect safety, suspension geometry, and how accurately the car can be restored to its intended specifications.
"Now, I know there's been a lot of talk about hybrid cars."
Hybrid cars use both gas and electricity. The discussion is about whether collectors will still want them as future classics, even though they feel different from older gas-only cars.
Hybrid cars combine an internal-combustion engine with an electric motor. In the collector context, the question is whether hybrids will be seen as “collectible” the way traditional high-performance cars are—despite differences in sound, feel, and long-term technology risk.
"And once they go public, I mean, look, the, the IPO is close to two trillion is what's projected."
An IPO is when a company first sells stock to the public. Big IPOs can create a lot of money and excitement, and that can influence what people are willing to spend on things like collectible cars.
An IPO (initial public offering) is when a private company sells shares to the public for the first time. In this discussion, the speaker ties large IPO valuations to broader wealth/market sentiment that can spill over into collectible markets like classic and enthusiast cars.
"You got to maintain the cars. Got to ensure them. You got to exercise them."
“Exercise them” means not letting the cars sit forever. Taking them out and driving them occasionally helps prevent problems that happen when cars are parked too long.
“Exercise them” means periodically driving or running the cars to prevent issues caused by long storage. Regular use helps keep fluids circulating, tires from degrading, and mechanical components from seizing.
Select text to request an explanation
Hey, it's Greg Stanley. We just have a quick update today. If you're watching online, you'll see my cat is walking into frame. That is Piper.
But anyways, it's a lot of stuff going on, especially as it relates to the release of the book, The Enthusiast Guide to Collector Cars.
That is coming up quickly. We should have it in hand within three weeks with the big unveil at American Packer Museum.
And it's much bigger than I thought. I thought it was going to be 285 pages. It's almost 400 pages because there's 140 photographs provided by Arm Sotheby's and others in the book.
So nice, high quality book. If you would like to learn more, just go to thecollectorcarpodcast.com.
Scroll down a little bit. You'll see the book. Just click on the book and I'll take you to the launch page where you can pre-order yours now.
So it's already going really well. Almost sold 1,000 copies before it's even come out yet.
So be sure to get yours early again, thecollectorcarpodcast.com.
And as you'll see here in a moment, very excited about this guest. I've known Chris for a number of years, big Ferrari guy, those all sorts of things.
And he has some really cool behind the scenes information as it related to the historic Bachman sale as well as that white GTO that sold.
So please support my sponsors. That's how this podcast continues to go.
And please give me a thumbs up, write me a comment. All that stuff helps and share with your friends. I appreciate it.
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All right, welcome to the collector car podcast. Very excited about this next guest because we've been talking about being on the podcast for a few years now.
So it's finally happening. So Chris Mealy from Prancing Horses of National. How you doing, buddy?
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.
All right, did I say your last name right or should I do more flourish like Millie?
Like what's the best way?
It's Mealy.
Mealy, okay.
You know, it's, it means honey in Italian and in French. So, you know, it was actually kind of funny when I first took my wife over to the Ferrari factory.
She said, you know, the girls were, hi, Mr. Honey, hi, honey.
No, she's looking at me. She's like, who is this girl?
It was like the inside joke. I said, you know, our last name means that she was really, I said, yeah.
Oh, that's awesome. Well, I distinctly, I might have the wrong location.
No, I got the wrong location. I had the wrong year.
I distinctly remember when we first met because I was judging at Cavalino.
I think you were representing an F40 if I'm not, if I'm correct.
And we just talked and you're the friendliest guy in the world.
He's like, come to my dealership. You got to check it out.
And so we've been staying connected ever since then.
Obviously, I see all the time at all the auctions. So great to finally have you on the podcast.
Oh, great. I'm glad to be here. It's been fun and I've been looking forward to it.
Yeah. And I do want to dig in pretty quick here because I know you had a significant part to play in the Bachman Ferrari collection, which you've been making the rounds.
You know, everybody knows who you are. Everybody knows that you're instrumental bringing that to world record market with Meekum.
So if you could, I know you can't share everything, but if you could share kind of what was your role?
How did it all happen and your thoughts on the results because they were nuts?
Yeah, they were. So my relationship with the Bachman family, I met Philip Martha back actually right when I got out of the Marines.
I went to the Ferrari National 1989 and I met them and they had the 365 GT4 BB, the yellow car.
And I met them then. And then over the years, you start to see them. Obviously, I was working with Ferrari.
As the years went on, I would see them at the events at Cavalino, at the Ferrari Club National, so on and so forth.
And then you develop the relationship. And then when I had the opportunity to be part of the Ferrari dealership in Nashville, Tennessee,
it was the first dealership that was back since Thoroughbred Motors.
They closed in the early to mid 90s. You know, Martha was shipping the cars either to Atlanta or down to Florida to get them serviced.
So it was it was convenient for them to get it done. And that was like reconnected with them in late 22.
And it was actually through Simone Scudoni. Everybody knows the Scudoni name because they do all the luggage for Ferrari and a bunch of other brands.
But everybody knows them. It's synonymous with the luggage sets from Ferrari.
And we connected Simone and I have been very, very good friends for 25 plus years.
So he made the reintroduction. We started servicing the cars. And then it kind of took like a life of its own from that point forward.
Yeah. And I remember one time visiting you at your dealership and you had their F-50 in the back.
And you're like, hey, that's a rare car right there. It's got X amount, I don't know, 700 miles, whatever it was.
And I was like, is that the Bachman car? Because I know the Bachmans as well.
And you just kind of looked at me like a little knowing wink, you know, because there's not many of those out there, right?
Especially in Tennessee.
No, no, no, no. It had actually 250 miles.
250. I know it was crazy.
Yeah. And it was low miles. I mean, it was actually the lowest one that I've ever sold because I sold Roger Pency's car, which is now with Rick Workman.
But I sold that car when I worked with RP.
I ran his Ferrari dealership in New Jersey, and that car had 300 miles on it.
And that was back. We sold it about 15 years ago, right around 2009 or 10.
Now, what is the F-50 hammer for? You remember off the top of your head? I know you have 40.
It was over $12 million. It was over $12 million.
So when I saw you, this is a couple of years ago when that car was there.
And I think you said that will be the first $8 million F-50, which at the time was crazy because at the time they were like, I don't know, three and a half or something like that.
And you said you put a big number out there and then it more than exceeded that by a couple of million dollars.
But the key is, and this is what everybody spoke about, when you have a car collection that comes to the market, and as you know, it's on the most of the cars, single ownership.
And the cars were really optioned well. They were well maintained. You knew how well they took care of the cars.
You knew that they were going to just bring all the money.
And for a long time in the U.S., the U.S. cars always had much lower miles than the rest of the world.
The cars were always driven and the U.S. buyers were always kind of hung up on this mileage thing.
But the rest of the world would kind of look at us and give us that kind of smirk and that wink.
They'd say, oh, it's a U.S. car. Of course, it's not driven.
And then, you know, now you're starting to see, as time has passed on, color is really what is taking precedent in everything.
If it's a quote, unquote, off-color car, it's not the normal red, you'll see that those cars are really getting the party.
And, you know, you could see it obviously in the Enzo's, the last few that have sold.
You had the Bachman yellow one. You had Gerald Barnes at the Meekamstel as well, the Rosso Dino car.
And then obviously you just saw the black one that was at Broad Arrow and Amelia.
You know, the cars that aren't red, you know, they're pulling all the money.
And, you know, I'm fortunate that I obviously work with Ferrari and I've been in the Ferrari network for a long time.
You know, with speaking with the guys at the factory, there's about 340 red Enzo's that were produced.
So it's a large majority of the cars were red.
So that's why you're seeing a sober one, a titanium one.
Obviously Calico's got the only blue Potsy car.
You know, you're seeing these other cars and they're bringing all the money.
And that's what we're starting to see.
So color is really, is really, you know, taking the lead now.
All right. I don't want to go down a rabbit trail, but you just threw out some numbers in.
You're the guy who knows the real numbers versus the published numbers.
And I don't want to, I don't want you to give out your secret sauce or anything like that.
But tell me, confirm for me, Ferrari doesn't always put out the exact production numbers.
Like I'm talking F40, F50, you know, like that era and you've been able to dig up some of the real numbers, right?
Yeah. I mean, you know, the 288, the F40, they were pretty much what it really is published out there.
It's 1315 F40s, 272 288 GTOs are actually GTO.
The real name of the car is the GTO. It's not the 288.
F50, they made a little bit more.
Was it 349? So quoted number?
Yes, but it still starts with a three.
Yeah.
It's not like it's in the fours.
And the Enzo was 399 plus one.
You remember the car, they had the tsunami relief car, the Pope car.
So that made 400.
There's more, but it still starts with a four.
It's not like it's in the fives or sixes.
It's still with a four.
Why the discrepancy? Why is it?
I think at the time, you know, they had people, they had, you know, more buyers than they had cars.
And they said, well, let's just go ahead and make the cars.
You know, once they went public in 2016, obviously they obviously tightened it up.
And now it's more in line of what they exactly said.
You know, I really see everything is, you know, pretty much what they say is what they're producing.
And listen, there's always what I call a one Z, a two Z, maybe the next car here and there,
but it's not, you know, to the point where they're producing dozens and dozens of cars, you know, that that's just not happening.
I think I find it fascinating because I love to think there's this crazy color in Joe out there that nobody knows about, you know,
and you're fueling that fire by telling me a couple other cars out there.
You know, so now that's awesome.
Now let's get back to the Bachman.
So how do you, what's the impact that that it has already had on the Ferrari marketplace?
I had my own, let me give you my own opinion and you could tell me how wrong I am.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
My opinion is that was, people say it once in a lifetime a lot, but I truly think that was a once in a lifetime sale because Phil was doing
TaylorMade before there was a TaylorMade program.
He was doing luggage before there was a luggage program.
So you're not going to repeat that.
Right.
I mean, so tell me, I feel like that is once in a lifetime.
Now there could be other versions of that happening now that I'm not aware of.
I feel like that was a one off.
Ferraris, modern Ferraris have been hot for a while.
I don't think we should put all our eggs in the basket that this is the new market.
But I think there are some specific cars.
We can say that like the Enzo.
Like, you know, we had a couple of Enzo sell before and after that that were in the eight digit range.
So what are your thoughts on how that impacted the market?
Or is it too soon?
Look, when a collection like that services, it becomes a center of gravity for the entire market, as you know.
And everybody serious collectors from the whole entire world start to focus on, you know,
all these cars that are going to go ahead and trade at one place.
So there was enormous visibility in the Ferrari collector car market.
No matter where you look, there was people talking about it.
And, you know, when I went to, I was over in Paris and, you know, you had everybody coming up to me.
And they said, they said, thanks for screwing up the market.
And then, you know, you're laughing because usually when somebody says that to you,
they mean in a negative way, but it was almost like a compliment.
But the flip side was they said, now everybody that has an Enzo, for instance,
thinks that their cars worth $17 million.
And, you know, then you had to really drill down on each car and say, OK, why did that car bring that number?
Obviously, it took two guys, more than one guy to go ahead.
They were going against each other, making that car run up.
But the flip side to that was why did it run up?
Was it just the color?
Was it the options?
Was it because it was the last one that was produced for the US?
These are the kind of things that, you know, when it doesn't always matter if it's a car, as you know,
it could be a lithograph set.
It could be a book set.
You know, there's one of 20 and a guy goes, hey, I got the last one.
I got book number one, whatever it may be.
People always go for that one.
So, but, you know, to your point, it was the first time I've ever seen anything like that offered in a single event.
I've never seen anything like that.
You know, and even when we were putting it together, I knew it was going to be big.
But, you know, I saw a lot of people there that, you know, you normally want to see at a meet them event.
And, you know, it went ahead and the visibility that was there was amazing.
The job that meet comes team did was absolutely amazing.
Honestly, it was unbelievable.
They did an amazing job.
They recreated the Bachman clubhouse that they had out on Eastern Tennessee.
So they basically took the show on the road, as they say, and they recreated their garage and built it up that way.
And then all the things that we put together, that catalog was really special.
I was part of that with their team and their guys are great.
And we worked closely and, you know, we drilled down, hey, look, this was the last one produced in this.
This was the second to the last.
You know, and that was the stuff that I, you know, was able to go ahead and work on.
And I know, look, you guys work on it.
I mean, Gerrit Rothmeyer, he's amazing.
He does an amazing job and his files are, you know, awesome.
And we all work together.
We all collaborate and, you know, we say, hey, what do you have on this and what do you show?
Because the truth of the matter is Ferrari keeps that stuff really close to the vest versus other manufacturers.
You call a Porsche.
How many Riviera blue Carrera GTs did you make?
Whatever, you know, whatever the numbers, they'll just tell you.
Ferrari always keeps it close to the vest.
So there's a little bit of a mystique behind it.
And then the truth is, if your data is really accurate and you have accurate data, then people go ahead and say, look, it's one of three.
And that's where the play was.
We started to see the action on that very early on.
And like, for instance, that 348 challenge car, you saw what that car did.
I mean, it did over 600,000 for a 348.
And I had my book that I had before we started the auction and I was up on the block with Dana.
And, you know, we had like where we were going to be, like we kind of thought where we were going to go.
And I said, look, if all the stars align and everything's perfect, this is my number.
We blew through that number on most of the cars.
So, and look, again, this is me, right?
So, you know, you're working at an auction and you have a hot client that's there.
What do you think it's going to do?
And in your best estimate, you kind of have an idea.
But when the room gets hot, and to me, the hottest room I was ever in ever prior to the Mecom sale was RM Sotheby's in Monterey in 2025 with the SP3 sale.
And when I was sitting in that room, it was like being in a rock concert.
I felt like I was at a Van Halen concert. It was wild.
And the energy was just electric.
And then I, you know, I was like, man, that'll never happen again.
There you go.
It happened and it was really wild, you know, because that was obviously a few cars that were in there that were Ferrari.
So, you know, there was the F40 LM.
You had the Ralph Lauren F50.
But that kind of started it right there.
That's kind of where it started.
And then records.
Right.
And then it went nuts with us.
And then again, some of those records have been beat.
Some of the cars, you know, whether it was David Gooding's sale in Paris, he had some.
I know Broad Arrows had some obviously on the TDF and a few other cars.
They're, and it's not just Ferrari.
I mean, you're seeing it on the Mura SV.
I mean, they got $6.7 million.
You saw the Carrera GT.
That Carrera GT went nuts.
Exactly.
But what was it?
It was color, right?
It was color.
So these cars that we're talking about, color options is what's driving it.
So that's, that's what you're seeing for sure.
And that's, that's starting to take the lead.
You know, the biggest question was, for us was, and we talked a lot about this, that we were peaking too high, you know, too early.
Because we were starting to peak really early.
We did all those publications and we did the, the TV shows and Dana had on Roku, you know, Meekum TV and we did a lot of filming.
And you start to, you know, you start to question whether the market can absorb that much Ferrari inventory at one time.
But, you know, the strength of the bidding, you know, when we looked at a post sale, you know, you could see how deep that Ferrari market really, really is.
And, you know, we could see that.
But, you know, certain cars performed exactly where we thought they were going to perform.
And then there was other ones that the upside was just mind boggling to me.
Honestly, it was, it was really, really high.
And then like there was cars that I thought candidly like Mike, you know, in the, in the videos that we ran, you know, they're online with Meekum.
We all got asked like, what was your favorite car?
And the 275 alloy four cam was my favorite car.
And you know the car really well.
David Cart restored the car.
The restoration was amazing.
Before we brought the cars to the, to the market, we knew the cars, you and I knew them because we visited the cars, but the rest of the world in it.
So they would say, Hey, are the cars original?
Are they authentic?
And that's when I got with the Bachman family.
And I said, look, you're going to have to authenticate these cars.
So we had Emiliano Torco, who, you know, well, we had Mark Orrigi who ran Ferrari Classic K.
They're both left Ferrari and retired.
And I went and got in touch with them and we flew them over and we went out there for just under two weeks.
And we got all 48 cars.
We put them up on the lift.
We knocked the wheels off.
We did the full inspections, pulled off belly trays, you name it.
We did it.
So basically what we were doing was a Classic K inspection, but we weren't officially Classic K in them.
But we knew that everything was there.
The numbers matched in your box, the differential, the body numbers, the engine numbers, so on and so forth.
We made sure that everything was there.
And the Bachmans kept the collection really tight.
So there really were no non-conformities in the collection.
And they were so, I don't want to use the word anal, but they were so meticulous.
You can use it because that is correct.
Yeah, but they were so meticulous with their paperwork.
They had filing cabinets and each car had its own filing cabinet, little hang tags, little things that came with the car, anything you name.
They had them and they had them set sitting inside the cabinet.
Whereas most people, they pull something off.
It says, you know, you always have them on the visor.
They say warning label about airbags or whatever it is.
They would see them off and put them in and save every little sticker that there was.
And they had car covers.
Car covers that were custom bycars with the kind of car.
And then they had a stuffed teddy bear that they sat on top of each car.
It was just nuts. It was absolutely nuts.
So you gave me a lot there.
Two questions before I forget them.
Is an Enzo of a special color worth more than an alloy, short wheelbase cal spider?
You know, it's really interesting when you look at that question because you and I go to Pebble, we're there every single year.
You know, you see the crowd when especially you're down on the big lawn.
And you know, when you're up at Casa Ferrari, it's a much younger crowd.
And when you go down, especially on Sunday, it's an older crowd.
Quail is kind of a hybrid.
So look, I see the guys that are buying these cars are much younger.
And I see the guys that are selling them are much older.
So I see them looking at that.
Now, granted, the US market is a little bit different.
You'll see a guy that's in the UK.
You'll see a guy in, you know, Germany or France or somewhere in Europe, Italy, especially Switzerland.
They love the classic stuff.
And you just look at their architecture.
It's beautiful.
It's old.
It's preserved.
Everything is beautiful.
You know, America is skyscrapers and glass and aluminum and high tech and very contemporary.
And that's kind of what you're starting to see.
People go ahead and they go towards, you know, what they're used to.
I mean, think about it.
You know, here in America, you know, used to people lining up in an Alperger in Tennessee or Chick-fil-A or whatever it may be.
You know, you take that same place and you put it in Europe.
They might check it out, but there's no way people are standing outside and, you know, lined up for that stuff.
It's just, it's a different culture and it's a different buyer.
But, you know, to answer your question, the market is there.
These auctions are exposing it.
That's really what's happening.
That's the way I look at it.
It's just the people are just looking for the right thing.
But the more that people get educated and they see what's going on,
they're starting to, you know, dive into it more and more and more.
And this could be a whole other podcast episode.
So I don't want to take too big of a tangent here.
We've talked offline a little bit about it.
One of the reasons that I'm glad a guy like David Lee has the new 250 GTO is because he's sharing it with the younger generation through social media.
Because if you think about the collectors that have the big five Ferraris and maybe even a GTO, you never see him.
You never hear about it.
At least that I'm aware of.
No, you don't.
Let's not make this a GTO conversation because we can do a whole other thing on that.
But I was glad to see that hopefully that next generation is appreciating the Ferraris from the 50s and 60s more than they were maybe two months ago.
I don't know, but we'll see.
No, for sure.
And listen, that's what it takes.
It takes these owners of these classic cars, you know, to get them out there.
I mean, you know, a guy that sells everything and does an amazing job.
You know, Simon does an amazing job.
Tom Hartley does an amazing job.
Tom Hartley Jr.
It's just they they're they're into everything and they get it and they know how to find the best of the best stuff.
And, you know, that's what they do.
They do a very good job at it.
And it doesn't matter whether it's a classic car or if it's a more modern car, they're up to speed on it and they have their finger on the pulse and and they're on top of it.
Yeah.
And my my brief introduction story with the Bachman's was I was learning to seven fives to dig into those as my specialty for to be a Ferrari judge.
And so I asked Martha, could I come by there and see yours because I knew hers was one of the best in the world.
And so when I got there, this is after Phil obviously had his stroke and mentally he was all there.
And he was in a wheelchair and he was observing me.
He just started laughing like crazy when I crawled underneath that car to take reference pictures underneath and I'll throw some of those up now.
Just to talk about what a spotless car that was and one of the alloy cars, you know, and I think that new home, the new home is a perfect spot for it.
I think it was a little bit of a bargain, but not when you consider, you know, the way prices have gone for 60s Ferraris.
So anyways, but yeah, another another car I want to bring up is a very basic Ferrari.
Let's call it a 308 red tan.
So most common color combo.
Nothing special.
Should that car be affected by the Bachman results?
Yeah, I mean, it should.
But I mean, their cars were the best that I've ever seen.
And some of the cars were restored again to fill them and buy the car new.
The first car that he purchased was in 1984 or 308, but they had other cars that were older than that.
They had an 80, a 76, they had different cars that were in the collection.
But again, look, the Ferrari, the Ferrari buyer is not really your normal buyer.
They're incredibly sophisticated.
They know exactly what they're going after when they focus in on a great car.
So, you know, I always tell everybody the market rewards the best cars.
That's something that you always see.
And if the car is written in it to your point, that's a red tan car.
But if it happens to be something different, blue, Sarah, Verde, Pino,
something that you normally didn't see back then, then it really rewards it for the longest time.
You know, when we were order cars that the Ferrari dealership in the ordering system is completely different today than it was 20 years ago.
The dealer had control of the allocations.
So we would order a car and, you know, if the guy was, you know, local guy, whatever it is, what do you have coming in?
We got a red tan.
We got a red Coyote.
Oh, we got a red black.
Maybe we order a black black.
And then, you know, you fill in something else.
Yellow black.
But it was always like the same basic shades.
And that's why you see a lot of that.
The guys that stood outside the box.
I remember when we did a 16.
Oh, no, it was a Scuderia actually.
The Scuderia.
And at the time, to your point, before it was at Tillier and at Tillier evolved into Taylor made,
you would put in what they called an extra company or request.
It was a special request to go ahead and build on the car.
And if it was anything that was out of range.
And I remember there was a run for a certain period of time when Miami Vice had those testaroses and, you know, those 512 TRs and people were doing white cars.
And then it kind of got quiet again.
You don't really see them.
But I remember seeing some white 360s and, you know, challenge strudalis that were white.
And I did a Scuderia and white and I didn't do the regular Bianco Avis.
I did a Rolls Royce Arctic white, which is a real white white, almost like a porcelain white.
And that's when we were starting the theme cars.
I was kind of really big on the theme cars.
I got caught up with it early on one of my visits to the factory 20 something years ago.
And people were signing underneath the front bonnet, you know, the assembly line.
Oh, they liked it.
And now today, if you have one of those cars today, they bring the moon, right?
They just people go totally crazy over it.
So some of the people, I saw it.
I shared my enthusiasm with other clients at the time.
They had the vision as well and they ordered the cars.
Now today, you know, the market, you know, they see enormous value on cars like this.
There's just, you know, they'll really chase it and you'll see a car.
You're like, hold on a second.
It's a different shade of white.
There's another white one, but this is a Rolls Royce white and it has some signatures and maybe a couple little trick things on it.
And it's going to bring an extra couple hundred thousand more than another car.
Yeah.
That's what's going on right now.
Now, how have your conversations changed with your customers and clients since the sale?
I imagine I got a lot of phone calls.
People maybe wanted to sell some stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, for sure, you know, you had everybody that was calling, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, when you talk about, you know, the 60s competition cars, as you know, or, you know, I have clients who look for them.
And they're still the pinnacle of the market and their trophy assets.
You have the cars from the 70s, the 365 GT4 BBs, the 512 BB.
And then you go into the 80s and 90s, you got the GTO, you got the F40, you got, you know, the manual era cars.
I mean, you know, we talked all about the manual cars, you know, that that's a big thing.
You know, the cars that you saw was a run for the last few years, whether it was, you know, a 355 Fiorano.
Yeah.
They made, you know, 100 cars, but they made, you know, only a few with a manual gearbox.
They're pulling crazy money.
You know, you have a, you have a 550 Barquetta or not even use that.
She's a 550 Maranello and a 575 is an upgrade and everybody wanted the paddle shifts.
Everybody wanted to be like Michael Schumacher at the time.
2002, he was the world champion and everything was going great.
Everybody wanted that.
Now, if you have a manual gearbox, 575 Maranello, it's worth a boatload of money more than just a paddle car, you know, an F1 gearbox car.
So the people that were the purest back then and they were hard to get, it wasn't like, you know, Ferrari was really pushing you towards getting the F1 gearbox.
It wasn't like you had a checklist and you said, well, I just want to do an F1 or I want to do a six speed.
That's not how it worked.
You had to have an allocation for the manual gearbox.
You had to put in our request for that.
So it wasn't easy to get them.
I remember when we were doing 360s and 430s at the time, I remember them telling me specifically for North America about 6% of the allocation for both of those cars was a manual gearbox.
And I would request the hell out of them because I had a lot of Porsche customers.
And at the time, Porsche customers were, you know, they always wanted those manual gearboxes.
And, you know, as the dual clutch got better and, you know, when the 458 came out and, you know, really with the California, the California was really the first car with the dual clutch.
Then it started to get really good.
It's smooth and you can get, you know, a little feedback because you didn't want to make it seem like it was too automatic.
You wanted to have a little bit of that visceral feeling.
You know, you could feel the car shifting.
But yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of changed back to where it was, you know, the cars that people really weren't requesting.
Now they want and they were light in numbers, like I said, 6%.
So now it's, you know, everybody wants those cars.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm crazy.
Well, I don't want to beat up the, not beat up, but cover the Bachman stuff too much, but two more, two more.
Is there a car that you felt surprised you that it didn't perform better?
And the flip side, obviously everything performed really well, but is there a car that surprised you at how well it performed?
One below your expectations and one above your expectations.
Okay.
So I'm going to go with two classic cars because we'll take the Enzo out.
That's a 17 million plus number.
I never thought that was going to happen.
The Luso did a really big number, the 250 GTL.
That car did over $3 million.
And that car, don't get me wrong, the same guy that restored the 250 GTB for Alloy, David Cart, who has since passed away, he restored that car.
So I really thought that that car wasn't going to do that much.
I had a peg the moon pie in the sky, something with it too.
I agree.
That one really did big, big number.
And I've seen a lot of other cars, which are really stout cars, beautiful cars.
But, you know, and then like you just saw it at the Broad Arrow sale, they, I think one car finished up one nine or somewhere around there.
Yeah.
So I was really, really surprised at that car.
The flip side was the car that I thought should have did more that I was really, really surprised was the 166mm.
It was the Vignale Spider.
It was one that had the original, original motor gearbox.
Everything was original on that car.
There was a small, small, small issue with the chassis on the car.
It was at some point in time, it was in an accident.
It was one centimeter off.
So to classically the car, we would have to send the car back to somebody like Vacari in Italy, who does all the chassis and get that car sorted.
But it wasn't anything crazy.
But at the time when Phil and Martha were sick, we weren't going to take the car and put it on an airplane and fly it over.
They said, look, it is what it is.
So that car, for sure, it should have been a $3 million plus car for sure.
And that car was down.
So when you balanced out the two cars, the Lusso and that, the final number where I thought they were going to do, they did, but it was reversed.
Right.
So the average worked out fine.
The average worked out perfect, right?
But at the time, you know, and everyone was asking me what I thought.
And even Emiliano and Marco, they were both really surprised at that car.
And that car was really early on in the collection.
So, you know, you start to get what I call the butterflies initially, like, oh, wait a second, what's going on?
You know, you see it.
And then you see another car do a big number because the run order that we did, I put that together.
I sat with Dana.
I sat with this team and I started to look at it and I wanted one car to play off the other.
And the only request the Bachman's had Philip P.V. had in one request.
He said, look, the first car that my dad got, the 84308, I want to make that car the last car that goes.
They said, no problem.
So that was the final car that went over and that car did a great number.
And I told a lot of people, I said, that's a special car because it was what started the whole journey for them and everything tied back.
You know, when you look at a lot of the photos, that car was always included.
They always had the FXX and whether it was the Enzo, that was a car they was really proud of.
But, you know, for sure, you know, that it was neat.
It was super, super cool.
Now, I know you need to go here in a second, but let me see.
Can you tell me, look at today's Ferrari markets.
Now, I know there's been a lot of talk about hybrid cars.
Are they really collectible, you know, touch screens, no more buttons?
What do you feel are the collectible Ferraris of today?
The Icona series or I think I said that, right?
Maybe not.
But, you know, there's be threes.
What do you think is the, is there a car, an entry level Ferrari that's even collectible today?
Or do you have to get to the really big stuff?
Well, to answer your question, the best is anything, and it just doesn't really just go for Ferraris.
It just seems like get anything, anything that is a limited production car that's numbered.
That's the car that's going to bring all the money.
And it's like that with anything.
I don't care if it's, you know, lithographs or whatever it may be, even watches.
The fewer there are, the more collectible it is.
So the flip side to that is I see cars that are non-hybrids long term being the more collectible cars.
And the reason being is, as you know, if you had an iPhone or, you know, and Apple's a pretty big company that's out there.
If you have a phone that's, let's say 10 years old and you say, hey, listen, I really love this phone.
It was given to me from my dad. It means a lot to me.
You know, he's passed away. I really got to keep this phone.
They can't help you. There's just no way.
You'll have to find somebody out there.
Maybe you can get your battery if the battery smoked or whatever the case is.
And that's on something that they produce millions of.
So now when you get into this long term, where's it going to be?
I think the collectors today, the people that we're starting to see and you see the same people I'm seeing,
they appreciate the last generation of analog cars before they became automated.
And what I'm saying by that is, look, let's take a look at what's going to happen.
And everybody says, are we on a spike?
And I agree we're on a spike somewhat, but the market's, it's a slight spike, but it's not going to tank.
And a lot of people say, look, what's going on?
I said, look, it really doesn't matter. I hate to say it that way, but the market's still going to carry on.
It's going to have its ebbs and flows, but this is what I can tell you for sure.
SpaceX is going, I live in Florida and, you know, my dealerships in Nashville, but I go back and forth quite a bit.
And when I was working in Florida, we had a lot of the guys that were part of, you know, employees at SpaceX.
And, you know, the guys that came in there, they always wanted something that was old school.
I want a manual gearbox GT3.
I don't want a PDK. I don't want this.
I want this Ferrari, whatever it may have been, they always wanted something that was mechanical.
And once they go public, I mean, look, the, the IPO is close to two trillion is what's projected.
They have thousands of employees there, thousands.
I mean, look, a trillion, it's a thousand billion, right?
It means a monster number, monster, monster number.
And it's a couple trillion.
So it's, it's a monster number. You have that.
You have a chat GPT with, with, with Sam, what's his name?
Sam Altman.
So you have him coming, right?
That's going to be another, you know, Microsoft backed another IPO, trillion dollars, right?
Then you go back and you go to, you go to Anthropic, you're the developer for Claude.
That's going to be another one that's, you know, hundreds of billions.
I mean, these numbers are massive.
We're only talking about a small amount of cars and this is what drives them.
When you see the data and what they love, they love old school mechanical because that's the stuff they grew up to.
They had the F 40, the F 50, the Enzo when they were kids growing up because most of the guys are like anywhere from late 20s all the way to early 40s.
So, you know, when, you know, the guy that's in his 40s, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, you know, when he was like in college or in high school,
it was that F 40, F 50 Enzo.
So that's why they're snatching them up.
And, you know, we all know who the buyers are.
You know, Rick Hendrick obviously bought the car that you and I love the most, the 275 GTB4.
But, you know, when you look at a lot of the guys that are coming into the game, you know, every time we go to an auction, we see somebody new.
We're like, who is this guy?
I never saw him before.
You know, the paddle's waving and you're like, okay.
Right.
You know, somebody's on the phone and, you know, they got this customer and, you know, you could see what's going on and they're buying up the cars.
And then when you hear about how big the collections are, you know, you look at the same guy that bought the black Enzo, you look, he bought obviously the Bachman Enzo.
It's the same people that are buying them up.
And when you see that and then you look at their collections, you're like, okay, what do they have?
Oh, they got 200, 300 cars and they're real cars.
And then you see the older generation, you know, the guys that were the big guys that we knew and look, it's not about money.
The John Shirley's and the Bachmans and the old guard is what I refer to him as.
They're getting to the point in their life where they're getting a little bit older in life.
And now they're saying, hey, you know, and a lot of times what happens is everybody says, you know, the family doesn't want the cars.
You know, that was the big question that I got asked with the Bachman collection.
And look, I was honest with them.
I said, I don't want to say that he has no interest.
The cars mean a lot to him.
But the flip side is he was brought to the hospital in the 308, you know, Martha, you know, Phil rushed Martha to the hospital and they had baby PV, right?
And he was around the collection his entire life.
He went to all the nationals.
He did all the events growing up.
They had him at everything.
But he also recognized what does it take to keep these cars, you know, alive?
Got to have a really good secure warehouse.
Got to maintain the cars.
Got to ensure them.
You got to exercise them.
There's a lot to do.
And when you have 48 cars, he, I don't want to say he's been there and done that, but it was a great chapter in his life.
And I think, you know, losing both of his parents within 18 months of each other, you know, unfortunately, they both passed away in a relatively quick time.
I think it was, it was something that he was at the point where he said, you know what, let somebody else enjoy them and have their happiness with the cars.
I had great memories with him.
And, you know, I'm going to go ahead and, you know, he'll get something to play around with PV's car guy, you know, he loves cars.
Yeah, I wrote in his lotus with them.
Of course it's yellow.
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
But listen, the summit up though, for sure, I have to be honest with you.
The, you know, what people always ask me, you know, like, what do you really think about like what goes on?
I just say, you know, collecting Ferraris is always been a passion.
The financial side is super important.
Obviously it has to make sense.
Nobody wants to go ahead and get into these deals and lose money.
But the people chase these cars because look, they represent history, whatever the provenance may be on the car, whatever it may be, the engineering, the racing heritage is all wrapped into one object.
And now Ferrari does an amazing job with the lifestyle.
You can go on cowl cage, you can do, you know, stuff with the hyper club, you can go to Le Mans, you can do the Targa Florio, you can do, you know, different events here in the States.
I mean, there's all kinds of events.
Plus you have the challenge series, you have different components to that.
You have the XX, you have the 499, you have obviously the historic stuff.
I mean, there's a lot going on and people, I think, really enjoy that.
So it's not just like buying a precious stone or a piece of artwork where, you know, those things a lot of times, as you know, you're with RM Sotheby's, the numbers on those far exceed what you'll see on an automobile.
But, you know, there's a lifestyle component to this that they get a chance to enjoy it as well.
So that's why you're starting to see it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Chris, I know you have to catch a flight to go to one of your locations.
And I appreciate you being on the podcast and let's do it again sometime.
No, for sure.
I really enjoy thanks for having me and I'm really looking forward to, we'll talk more about what else is going on in the market because there's plenty of good stuff happening.
So thanks for having me.
Yeah.
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