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Company
Four Wheel Underground
Four Wheel Underground sells off-road upgrade parts. The hosts say they’re making it easier to buy specific pieces (like brackets and joints) instead of being forced to buy a whole kit.
Concept
all a cart
They’re saying you can buy parts one-by-one instead of having to buy a complete kit. That’s helpful when you only need to replace or upgrade a specific piece.
Part
upper frame bracket
A frame bracket is a metal mounting piece that helps hold suspension parts to the truck. Here, they’re saying you can buy that bracket by itself.
Part
lower link bracket
A lower link bracket is a mounting point for the lower suspension arms. The mention of an integrated bump stop means it also helps cushion the suspension when it reaches the end of its travel.
Part
integrated bump stop
A bump stop is like a safety cushion for the suspension. When the suspension compresses too far, it hits the bump stop to help prevent damage and harsh impacts.
Part
cartridge joints
Cartridge joints are the connection parts at the ends of suspension links. They’re designed to be durable and, in many setups, serviceable if they wear out.
Part
rebuildable Johnny joints
Johnny joints are heavy-duty suspension connection parts that allow the suspension to move through big angles. “Rebuildable” means you can replace the worn internal parts instead of buying brand-new joints.
Part
hymes
Heim joints are small, strong ball-and-socket style joints used in suspension. They help the suspension move freely when the truck flexes over rough terrain.
Part
offsets
Offsets are adjustments that move suspension mounting points slightly. They help get the suspension geometry right so the truck handles and rides the way you want.
Part
Aluminum links
Aluminum links are the suspension arms/links that connect the axle to the frame. Aluminum is lighter than steel, and here the hosts say these kits include them without charging extra.
Concept
Lee Springs
“Lee Springs” is mentioned as the suspension setup you’d switch away from. The host is basically saying you can upgrade from a spring-based setup to a link-based suspension kit.
Concept
link suspension kit
A link suspension kit is a set of parts that changes how the axle is held in place. It’s meant to help the truck move better over rough terrain and be tuned for off-road use.
Brand
on X off road
onX Offroad is an app that helps you navigate trails. The hosts like it for off-roading and community programs tied to it.
Topic
trail revival program
The “Trail Revival Program” is an off-roading community effort. The host says they joined in and helped do trail maintenance on the Rubicon Trail.
Car
Wrangler Rubicon
The Jeep Wrangler is an off-road SUV made for driving on trails and rough terrain. The podcast mentions it in connection with the Rubicon Trail, which is a well-known off-road route. They also talk about doing maintenance for that kind of driving.
Concept
salt corrosion
Salt corrosion is what happens when road salt gets on the car and speeds up rust. It can be especially rough on the underbody and metal parts.
Concept
rock crawling
Rock crawling is off-roading where you go slowly over rocks and obstacles. The goal is to keep your tires gripping and pick the safest path, not to go fast.
Brand
Land Rover
Land Rover is a car brand that makes off-road 4x4 vehicles. Here, they’re talking about the kind of people who usually drive Land Rovers and how that differs from rock crawling.
Concept
full roll
A “full roll” means the vehicle flips all the way over. In this story, it was serious enough that the cab got crushed.
Part
windshield
The windshield is the front glass you look through. In a rollover, it can pop out or break, and the host says theirs got peeled out.
Concept
body swap
A body swap means replacing the car’s outer body with another one. It’s often done when the original body is too damaged, like after a bad rollover.
Car
LR three
“LR three” means the Land Rover LR3. They’re saying they were driving that before switching, and that it had more complex suspension (including air suspension) compared with the simpler solid-axle setup.
Term
independent suspension
Independent suspension lets each wheel move on its own. That can make the ride smoother, but some off-road setups can be more complicated to maintain than simpler designs.
Term
Air suspension
Air suspension uses air bags instead of metal springs. It can raise and lower the vehicle for different conditions, but it’s also more complicated than a basic suspension system.
Term
33s
“33s” are tires that are about 33 inches tall. Bigger tires help clear obstacles, but they also change how the vehicle drives.
Term
44 inch swampers
“Swampers” refers to Swampers tires, a brand/model line known for aggressive off-road tread. Running “44 inch” tires dramatically increases ground clearance and changes gearing and steering feel, which is why it’s a big deal in rock-crawling and trail builds.
Term
lockers
Lockers are a way to make both wheels on an axle turn together. That helps when one wheel loses grip, like on mud or rocks.
Term
22 RE
“22 RE” is the name of an older Toyota engine. In this story, they’re saying it doesn’t have much power, especially when going up hills.
Term
dual cases
“Dual cases” is about having extra low gearing for off-road driving. It helps you crawl up tough terrain without needing lots of throttle.
Term
spring over 37
“Spring over” is a lift/suspension change that helps the truck sit higher and flex more on rough terrain. The “37” means they were running very big 37-inch tires for better clearance and grip on rocks.
Car
Toyota FJ 62
The Toyota FJ 62 is a later Land Cruiser that looks a bit different than the FJ 60, especially around the headlights. The host is comparing which Land Cruiser they had and how they looked.
Car
Ford Bronco
The Ford Bronco is a type of SUV built for driving on dirt roads and rough trails. People bring them to off-road places like Moab to see how well they can handle tough terrain. The podcast mentions it because it was part of their regular trip routine.
Topic
Moab for the Bronco deal
Moab is a well-known off-road area where people go wheeling. Here they’re saying they’d go every year for an event connected to Broncos, and they’d see lots of Land Cruisers there.
Term
rated to tow
“Rated to tow” means the maximum weight the vehicle is officially allowed to pull. If you tow more than that, it can stress the vehicle and become unsafe.
Car
Is300
The Lexus IS 300 is a Lexus luxury sedan that’s meant to drive more like a sporty car than a typical family commuter. Here, it comes up because the speaker was considering it when they were evaluating vehicles.
Concept
wagon version
A wagon is like a sedan but with more space for cargo behind the back seats. The speaker wanted that kind of practicality in the car they were shopping for.
Car
Rx300
The Lexus RX 300 is a luxury SUV. In this story, the dealer tried to steer the buyer toward an SUV instead of the specific wagon with a manual transmission the buyer wanted.
Car
Toyota FJ Cruiser
The Toyota FJ Cruiser is a Toyota SUV that’s designed to handle rough roads. It’s also popular with people who like to modify their vehicles for off-roading.
Term
body-on-frame
Body-on-frame means the car has a sturdy “skeleton” frame underneath, and the body is mounted on top. This helps the vehicle survive bumps and rough trails better than designs where the body and structure are one unit.
Car
Toyota Paseo
The Toyota Paseo is a small Toyota from the late 1990s/early 2000s. It was meant to feel more “sporty” than a regular Corolla, mostly through style and basic driving character rather than off-road capability.
Car
Toyota Corolla
The Toyota Corolla is a small, everyday car that’s usually chosen for reliability and easy ownership. In the podcast, it’s described as a “sporty” version, meaning it can be set up to feel more exciting to drive. It’s brought up because it was a car someone had in college.
Car
BMW 335
The BMW 335 is a BMW sedan that many people recognize as a “driver’s car” style. Here it’s just the car they were used to driving every day.
Car
Toyota Camry
The Toyota Camry is a very common, everyday family car. They’re describing it as a rental that felt basic compared to their usual BMW.
Car
Toyota RAV4
The Toyota RAV4 is a compact SUV. The host is saying it has gotten much bigger, and they’re also talking about an off-road version/trim idea.
Term
part-time rear
“Part-time rear” means the car doesn’t always drive the back wheels. It usually drives the front wheels, and the back wheels kick in only when you need extra grip.
Term
couldn't stall
To “stall” means the engine dies and stops running. They’re saying this older Toyota was easy to keep running at very low speeds, which helps when you’re creeping over obstacles.
Term
Overland
“Overland” means traveling long distances with a 4x4, usually with camping gear and the ability to handle dirt roads and rough terrain. It’s like road-trip mode, but for the outdoors.
Term
mall crawler
A “mall crawler” is a 4x4 that’s mostly used for everyday driving and looks off-road, not for real rock-crawling trails. It’s more style than serious trail capability.
Brand
Jeep
Jeep is another off-road car brand they’re comparing against. The speaker says Toyota people often know Jeep models even if they haven’t owned one.
Term
XJ
“XJ” is a nickname people use for a specific Jeep Cherokee generation. It’s like saying “that particular Cherokee” without saying the full name.
Term
TJ
“TJ” is a common shorthand for a specific Jeep Wrangler generation. People use it to quickly talk about “that Wrangler” without getting into details.
Concept
rebrand
A rebrand is when a company changes how it sells a product—like who it’s for and what image it wants. They’re saying Land Rover shifted the Range Rover’s image toward luxury, which helped justify higher prices.
Car
F-150 Raptor
The Ford F-150 is a large pickup truck used for everyday driving and work. The podcast brings it up while talking about making things faster or more performance-focused. It’s mentioned because it’s a popular truck that can be set up for more than just hauling.
Concept
unreliable cars
They’re saying that if a car is known for breaking down, fewer people want to buy it. That can make it cheaper later when you’re shopping for a used off-road rig.
Concept
depreciation
Depreciation means the car gets cheaper as it gets older. They’re saying that some Rover/Land Rover models drop in price a lot, so buying used can be a good deal for off-roading.
Term
corrosion risk
Corrosion risk means how likely the metal is to get damaged over time. Rust is one common kind of corrosion, and aluminum is less prone to it than steel.
Term
fully boxed
“Fully boxed” describes a stronger, enclosed frame shape. It can make the vehicle tougher, but it also adds weight.
Concept
series one
“Series One” is the first version of Land Rover’s classic lineup. Later versions were called Series Two and Series Three.
Concept
series two three
Series Two and Series Three are later versions of the same classic Land Rover family. They could be configured in different sizes and setups for different jobs.
Term
wheel bases
Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear axles. The segment notes different wheel bases because that changes interior/cargo space and how the vehicle handles.
Term
manual transmissions
A manual transmission is the kind where you shift gears yourself using a clutch. It can be useful off-road because you can keep the engine at the right speed.
Car
Range Rover
The Range Rover is a British SUV known for being able to handle rough terrain while still feeling upscale. Here, they’re talking about when it was developed and what engines it started with.
Term
Rover V8
The Rover V8 refers to Land Rover’s V8 engine family used in early Range Rover applications. In this segment, the hosts specifically connect it to the Buick V8 lineage, highlighting how the early Range Rover got its V8 option.
Term
Buick V8
A Buick V8 is a V8 engine design from Buick. The hosts are saying early Range Rover V8s were based on that Buick engine, at least at first.
Term
dual overhead cam motors
Dual overhead cam (DOHC) means the engine uses two camshafts up in the head to control the valves. The speaker is basically saying they’d rather deal with simpler engine designs because DOHC can be more complicated to repair.
Car
Jeep Grand Cherokee
The Jeep Grand Cherokee is an SUV that can be used for daily driving but is also designed to handle rough roads. The podcast mentions it when talking about early versions of this kind of SUV. It’s included because it was considered a key model in that category.
Car
Jeep Wagoneer
The Jeep Wagoneer is an early SUV that helped set the template for the more comfort-and-luxury side of SUVs. Here it’s mentioned because people debate whether it came before the Range Rover as the start of the luxury SUV idea.
Term
leaf springs
Leaf springs are an older type of suspension that uses layered metal strips to help the wheels move over bumps. They’re being used here as a “then vs now” comparison against coil springs.
Term
coil springs
Coil springs are a suspension system that uses a metal spring coil to absorb bumps. The hosts are comparing older leaf-spring SUVs to coil-spring setups that generally feel more controlled.
Term
disc brakes
Disc brakes are a braking system where pads squeeze a spinning metal disc to slow the car down. They’re pointing out that the Range Rover had disc brakes on all four wheels, which is considered a more advanced setup.
Term
solid axle
A solid axle is a heavy-duty axle that connects both wheels together. When one wheel goes over a bump, the axle helps the other wheel stay in contact, which is great for rough trails.
Term
radius arms
Radius arms are suspension parts that help guide the axle as the wheels move up and down. They’re used to keep the truck stable when you’re driving over bumps and ruts.
Concept
long arm conversion
A long arm conversion is changing the suspension links to be longer. That can help the suspension move better over bumps and keep the tires planted.
Term
suspension travel
Suspension travel is how much the suspension can move up and down. More travel usually means the tires can stay on the ground better over rocks and ruts.
Term
hub centric
Hub-centric means the wheel is centered by a snug fit on the hub. That helps the wheel sit straight and can reduce wobble or vibration.
Term
full float axles
Full-float axles are built so the axle shaft isn’t taking the vehicle’s full weight. That can make the setup tougher and easier to service if something wears out.
Term
semi float
Semi-float axles share the job of carrying weight between the axle shaft and bearings. It’s not as robust as full-float in some cases, but it can still be well-designed.
Term
C-clip
A C-clip is a small metal retainer that helps keep the axle shaft from sliding out. If a design doesn’t use C-clips, it can change how the axle is held and serviced.
Term
relays
Relays are like remote-controlled switches inside the car. They help the car run big electrical loads safely, and if they wear out or the wiring around them gets old, you can get electrical problems.
Term
electrical issues
“Electrical issues” means the car has problems with its electronics—like wiring, switches, or sensors. Older vehicles with lots of add-on features can be more prone to these problems over time.
Term
security systems
Security systems are the car’s anti-theft electronics. They can include alarms or systems that stop the car from starting, and the hosts are saying the early setup may have been more complicated than necessary.
Car
series three
Series Three is a version of the classic Land Rover truck line. It’s known for being a basic, work-oriented off-road vehicle rather than a luxury SUV.
Car
F 150
The Ford F-150 is a very common pickup truck used for work in the U.S. The hosts are saying that in England, the Series truck is viewed the same way—like an ordinary tool for daily jobs.
Term
PTO option
PTO (power take-off) is how a vehicle can power tools or equipment using its own drivetrain. The point they’re making is that some Land Rovers could be ordered with PTO so you could run things like plows or pumps.
Term
transfer case
A transfer case is the part that sends power to both the front and rear wheels in a 4x4. It’s also commonly involved in options like PTO, which lets you run equipment off the vehicle’s drivetrain.
Term
LT2 30
LT2 30 is a specific code name for a drivetrain setup Land Rover used. The hosts are trying to pin down when it showed up and how it relates to other transmission/transfer-case versions.
Term
LT77 transmission
LT77 is a specific Land Rover transmission they’re comparing against later versions. They’re using it to explain how the drivetrain setup evolved over the years.
Concept
permanent four wheel drive
Permanent four-wheel drive means the car is always sending power to all four wheels. That helps it grip better on dirt, snow, or rocks because it doesn’t wait to “turn on” the extra traction.
Term
passenger bias
“Passenger bias” suggests the power isn’t shared perfectly evenly. That can change how the truck feels when one side has more grip than the other.
Term
three and a half to one low range
“Three and a half to one” describes how much extra pulling power the low-range gearing gives you. More multiplication helps you crawl slowly and smoothly over obstacles.
Term
four gear transmission
They’re talking about having more selectable gearing for off-roading. Extra gear positions help you pick the right speed and pulling power for rocks, mud, or steep climbs.
Term
four gear case, no chains
Some off-road transfer cases use chains to transfer power, and some use gears. Using gears instead of chains can help keep things quieter and more consistent.
Term
gear driven
“Gear driven” means the transfer case uses gears to move power around. People often prefer it because it can be smoother and quieter than chain-driven designs.
Term
center differential lock
A center differential lock forces the front and rear wheels to turn together. It’s useful when the ground is slippery so power doesn’t just spin one end of the truck.
Car
Land Rover Discovery
The Land Rover Discovery is a family of Land Rover SUVs meant to sit in the middle of the lineup. Here they’re saying it was introduced in the 1990s as the “mid ground” option.
Car
Land Rover Series 88
The Land Rover Series 88 is an older Land Rover 4x4 made for basic, tough off-road work. The hosts compare it to the Toyota FJ 40 to show how similar these old-school trucks can be.
Car
Toyota FJ 40
The Toyota FJ 40 is an old-school Toyota 4x4 with a simple, tough design. The hosts mention it because it’s a good reference point for how similar some older off-road trucks feel and are built.
Term
Leaf sprung
Leaf springs are a type of suspension made from stacked metal strips. They’re common on older off-road trucks because they’re tough and can handle bumps and heavy use.
Car
Land Rover Defender
The Land Rover Defender is a famous off-road vehicle line. The hosts are saying it’s basically an older-style Land Rover concept that got updated with more modern suspension and components, but it can cost a lot.
Term
fuel injection
Fuel injection is how the engine gets fuel. Instead of using a carburetor, it uses valves/injectors to spray fuel in a more controlled way.
LIVE
Four wheel underground is making some big changes.
They really are. What's really cool about what they're doing right now is they're
kind of changing the way the business is set in the sense that you get to now buy things
all a cart.
Absolutely. So if you want the upper frame bracket, you can just buy that.
Yeah. If you want the lower link bracket, because it has the integrated bump stop and
it's super stout and it looks really good too. You can get just those before you would
have to buy the whole kit. Now you're going to be like, that's the bracket I want.
He's also brought joints in house.
So now you can buy those all a cart from cartridge joints, rebuildable Johnny joints,
hymes, offsets, all sorts of different ones.
Do you know what else he brought in house?
Aluminum links, that's pretty rad.
He found a way to source aluminum links so that there's no extra charge on the suspension kits.
They now all come standard with aluminum links.
I know I'm totally jealous.
And thanks to the all a cart system, you can also order aluminum links if that's all you want.
So if you want to move your Toyota from Lee Springs to a link suspension kit,
check out four wheel underground.
We want to check with you guys today about on X off road.
Definitely one of our favorite apps for off roading.
Yeah, what's better is not only their software, but they also are doing a lot to be a part
of the off roading community here in the country from the trail revival program,
which I actually got to be a part of and use to do some maintenance on the Rubicon Trail too.
They have an elite partnership.
So if you are an on X off road user, you can go to any of their 40 plus partners on there
and you get discounts with any of those partners.
So from bringing the people to the brands to the listeners to everybody involved,
it sounds like they really want to be a part of our community.
So let's be a part of theirs.
Go download on X off road from your favorite app store.
Welcome one.
Welcome all to the snail trail four by four podcast.
If you like going off roading in Toyotas, wrenching on Toyotas,
camping in Toyotas, even making fun of Toyotas, then you're tough out a lot
because this ain't Tyler and that ain't Jimmy, but we are rad.
Yeah, and I ain't Jimmy.
Well, yes, the irony is we do have Tyler.
We do have a Tyler.
That is true, but this is a little rover takeover.
Because I guess we've broken through.
Well, you know, the Japanese did lose the war.
That is true.
It's worth more than to say.
That is a very boomer thing to say, but accurate nonetheless.
But yeah, so we're doing this podcast for snail trail,
but we are a different podcast.
We are rovers after dark and you might recognize Dawn as Rover Dawn.
They they know me.
They love me. I know.
I think you're on this podcast.
Infamous hours. Oh, yeah.
But yeah.
So we are the rover after dark or rovers after dark podcast or rad.
And we're here to pick up the slack for these.
I mean, slackers, that's all we can call them.
Yeah, pretty much.
You know how those guys are.
Yeah. So this is this will be exciting.
Oh, we get to talk to Toyota people about rovers.
I they all see in light and they yearn they yearn for the rover.
Yeah, I think so.
We're going to enlighten the Toyota people.
We all had we have a deep dark Toyota history and we've all moved on.
Yes. So a quick introduction.
So my name is Eric.
I am the host and then you guys know Rover Dawn.
We call him floppy dawn or Donnie.
There's multiple persona,
depending on how much has been consumed.
Yes. But I guess you guys know him as Rover Dawn.
And Rover Dawn is the announcer slash co-host.
Yes, that's my my role is to come up with something
vaguely humorous to say at the beginning of the show.
Yes, yes, vaguely his key word there.
And then we have we have Tyler, but then we usually have like a
some weirdo straight chiquita.
He's off. He just has abandoned us.
The land down under.
Well, yes, sometimes we have Robert.
Sometimes we have fighting off drop bears.
And we kind of switch out the third person.
That's like a more inconsistent thing.
And now that so we're actually this is a really different day
because obviously we're doing the snail trail Toyota thing today.
But also this is a we're in the new studio.
Yes, this is the first day in a studio north, I can call it.
So a lot of things are different here in the Sierra.
Yeah. What do you think about the new studio table?
I approve.
I like the commute to the studio more.
I don't. But yes, a little better for you.
Yeah. So the normal studio is over in San Jose.
Right. This one's over by like great eagle.
You know, this type of area like 45 minutes north of Chucky.
45 minutes west of Reno.
Yeah. Yeah, it was a very short
jump for I was able to go to work this morning and then come here.
That's not necessarily a good thing.
Now, if it was in San Jose, you could skip work all together.
So maybe not.
Maybe we should have gone to San Jose and I had an excuse to not go to work.
Yeah. I mean, it's not that different for you, though, Don.
It's about two and a half.
The Google told me three hours took about two and a half hours to actually get here.
I think Google was worried about the weather and which the weather is not as you.
Oh, this is a better drive, certainly.
But normally, I, you know, I plan my work schedule to take me down closer
to that area and try to organize it that direction.
But yeah, let's see how Donner Pass is on the way home.
There's got to be some boats up here somewhere.
Oh, there are lots of boats.
It's like this lake that's really big.
Yeah, most of the boats I work with aren't on lakes, but yes.
Yeah, let's salt corrosion.
But anyway, so basically our podcast is kind of like
kind of like this nail trout podcast, but for rovers, really.
I mean, it's pretty similar.
There's a whole genre of of like minded podcast where usually it's,
you know, it's kind of campfire talk.
It's a few guys sitting around having a drink and talking about what's happening.
More or less.
But I will say that I think we're similar
because we focus a little more on rock crawling than we would do like overlaying.
And or there's some other like Land Rover podcast out there that focus on.
Are you sure?
Yeah, but focus on like the brand and stuff like that.
And yeah, we don't have numbers or dark sheep of the Land Rover world.
That is true.
I'm not saying I drink Coors Light, but I might look like I drink Coors Light.
Yeah.
But the thing is like most Land Rover people aren't into rock crawling.
So it's a little a little different what we do.
And it's probably not like always the ideal vehicle to rock crawling.
But it's interesting because they are easy, but because they are hard.
Yes.
So we'll get it kind of introduce ourselves a little bit.
I do have a Toyota background.
I started rock crawling in my 85 forerunner.
And I kind of played in that world for a while.
I would do like the Marlin roundups, the Rubathons.
So I was like kind of experience a Toyota community a bit.
And then I did roll mine one time and that kind of like a full roll first time.
Yeah, that's the first time only time.
Oh, you made a full like a full to where the cab kind of crushed down.
So I ended up peeling out the windshield, putting like a high
lift between the door sill and the top of the cab and just kind of spreading it
out a little bit.
But after that, I ended up selling that and somebody did a body swap.
And I needed a vehicle for I did that at a Rubathon.
So it was like at the end of June.
So I was like, well, I kind of need something for the rest of the summer.
And that would have been let's see.
I'm trying to think what year I remember meeting you at Hollister with you.
This was 2015.
OK. So June of 2015.
So I basically just went on Craigslist and I was looking.
I think I use the keyword.
I was just kind of looking for anything, nothing in particular.
I think I use the keyword ARP on like Craigslist or something.
And you see some of the off road vehicles come up and stuff.
And I got the D2 because I was like, well, this is a relatively new vehicle
that's kind of nice and comfortable and it's got solid axles.
So it's one less thing to deal with.
And then I got to get sucked into this world.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because at that time I was still driving the LR three.
Yes, you were a full on overlander.
Oh, I wouldn't go that far.
Full independent suspension. Airbags.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Air suspension.
I figured out how to cure that.
You could try to take it through the Rubicon.
You can take it through the Rubicon.
I did with no body damage and promptly went out and bought a solid axle truck.
Yes. So what about you, Tyler?
As far as history with rovers, I'm pretty boring because I've just borne into it.
My dad always had him.
There's a certain irony here that in terms of age,
our personal experience is like inversely proportional
because you're the youngest guy here, but have the longest rovers history.
Always had rovers in my life.
That was just how it always was in camping and whatnot.
And my dad was never into the rock crawling side of things.
Like 33s were monster tires for him.
And still are in the 80s.
I was sitting at 80s 90.
It's still a 33 is a big tire for him.
And so I then, as I grew older, I was watched top truck challenge
and all that stuff and always wanted a truck on 44 inch swampers
and basically had rovers from there and got more into the rock crawling scene.
And and you still have your 88 that you drive a lot.
Is that was your high school car, wasn't it?
Yeah, what's left of it.
And it's it's falling in shambles.
And there's a lot of things when you look at that car, you go,
I can see where a 16 year old did that wired in that switch with only red wires
and whatever wire was around and stuff like that.
So oh, tell me you don't have wire.
That's there's probably wire nuts on there somewhere.
It's funny, as I as I progressed on that car,
like I put the lockers in only maybe six years ago and all the wiring
for the lockers is really nice.
And then next to it is wiring for a light or something.
And you see just how poorly I did stuff when I was 16.
There comes a point where you just tear it all out and stuff.
I passed that point.
But as far as Toyotas, I've had three Toyotas in my career.
One was just a mini truck pickup that kind of doodled around.
And then I had a I think it'd be a second gen four runner.
Whenever the 22 re was in a forerunner.
Well, that was in first gen.
It was in it was the first IFS to forerunners.
I think they did a 22 R up until like maybe like 83 or 84
And I think there's a lot of people on that snail trail podcast
that are probably yelling right now. Yeah, I mean, I had a 22
RE in my 85 Yeah.
And that thing was like, I mean, sure, you got no power.
It was like a total bitch to get up to like, let's say, shave or something.
Go up that hill. Oh, Lord.
Like that was tough.
I'm getting like passed by guys pulling up like forty foot boats, you know what I mean?
And stopping at all the water stations along the way.
But, you know, if you get dual cases, it's pretty just got enough power for the trail.
Yeah. But yeah, those things are dogs, but they they don't die.
Yeah. And mine was all stock.
We just beat the heck out of it.
And I remember the the front shocks were bad on it.
So you get the front end bouncing up and down and treat like a low rider.
And then the only rock crawling Toyota I really had was a 85
FJ 60 Land Cruiser and it had spring over 37.
I would assume the FJ 60 was much older than that.
I don't know.
I think 85 was the last year of the FJ 60.
And then they went to the FJ 62, which is the one with the square headlights.
Is that the the iron pig, I think they call it?
That's a 55
Yeah, I was before.
Those are ugly. Yes.
But also, I don't know, they're the likable one in my mind.
I always kind of like the way they look.
OK, to each their own.
Yeah, I I don't.
But it's one of those.
It's so ugly. It's cool. I guess.
Or, you know, sometimes it's what's really, really ugly.
Well, that's my main Toyota rock crawling experience.
And then every year we'd go to Moab for the Bronco deal.
And the Toyota was at Cruz Moab was always there.
So I always ran around with a bunch of land cruisers there.
I guess going on, but any time now, isn't it?
For us, it was always at the beginning of May
when we were there and Cruz Cruz Moab was always there.
And like Marlin Crawler was there and all that.
And it was cool to see all them and the Toyota is doing their thing.
What up, everybody?
I hope you guys are all enjoying some rover talk and a little bit of history
and how they got into their rovers.
But get ready because they have a lot more information and detail
and randomness about rovers to come.
But before we get to that, I do want to talk real quick about our giveaway.
This month we are doing a giveaway with Russo fire extinguishers,
the best fire extinguisher you can probably run inside your four by four vehicle
to get into this giveaway.
You need to go over to I rate four by four and sign up for that giveaway
tier under the snail trail four by four podcast.
And if you don't feel like a lucky individual
and you don't think you're going to be able to win that giveaway,
make sure to use the discount code and you can get 25% off with Russo crawlers.
Use that discount code with their website.
All that information is down in the show notes.
And you can get some fantastic deals on some of the best fire extinguishers
out there on the market.
These guys have 18 year shelf life, which is vastly superior to anything else
on the market. So I hope you guys continue to enjoy the podcast.
Enjoy some Rover talk.
They are definitely going to do a deep dive into rovers
and how they kind of correlate and relate back to Toyotas.
And if you're thinking about moving over to the Rover land,
you can think about what type of Toyota you want.
And then you can move over to the Rovers with their suggestion.
So, well, I have personally never owned a Toyota, but my wife did.
You haven't owned anything Toyota? No.
Now, I will confess that like when the FJ 40 first appeared or the FJ cruiser,
I mean, I went and looked at one and we actually went into the showroom
and talked to the little cheerleader boy that was there.
The ones to pick.
And drove it, you know, this is in Lodi and basically the dealerships
right next to the Highway 99.
So basically, I'm like, all right, well, let's take it for a ride and drove it around.
Basically off took the on ramp, took the next off ramp and never came back.
You know, just nope.
And I swear the kid was like 14.
I mean, it was the salesman and he's like, I asked Michael,
what's what's toe rating on this thing?
Oh, my dad does like 10,000 pounds with his.
I'm like, yeah, well, remind me not to be around your dad when he's towing anything then.
And by 10,000 pounds, he probably means, oh, he tows this little cart
that must be at least 10.
Yeah, I'm sure he had no idea.
Obviously, I had no idea what he was talking about,
because that truck's probably rated to tow what six? I don't know.
Yeah, 10,000 pounds is quite a bit.
Yeah, I mean, that's like getting into 2,500 range.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think my trailer is only rated for 10,000 pounds.
Probably. Yeah, that's like an equipment trailer.
Yeah, the suffice to say, I was not impressed and did not
didn't take that seriously when the IS 300 Lexus came out.
I remember thinking, well, let's go.
What the heck? It's supposed to be, you know, a good sports sedan.
I'll go take a look at it.
We went to a dealer in Sacramento, the Lexus dealer there,
and it was such an awful experience because they just couldn't understand.
What were we driving?
Were we driving to Audi then?
Maybe I don't remember, but I actually was specifically interested
in the wagon version with a manual transmission,
and that didn't exist.
So they're like, well, how about this minivan?
I got the RX 300 or whatever it was, 350 at the time.
I'm like, cool.
There's that's not.
No, you don't understand it all.
And it was terrible.
There was no go and just they they they don't comprehend.
And I'm like, no, I want the performance version.
But no.
Well, can you imagine what would happen if my wife did own a Toyota?
The FJ Cruiser.
My wife did own a Toyota.
She had a Paseo, which was basically I remember that.
It's basically a quote unquote sporty Corolla, I think.
So in college, she had that.
And I remember one of the few times I drove it.
I it was so it was red, which means that in short order, it was pink
because, you know, red in the I've been in the early 90s.
It did not last in any time.
It's also red in like an economy car.
Yeah. And I said, you know what, I'll take this back up to my house.
I'll polish it and wax it for you.
It'll look a little bit better.
And at that time, she was actually interning out West.
So that's how that's how you were wooing her back in the day.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But her mom was driving that car.
And her mom thought it was a great car.
At that point, she was convinced it was the best car she'd ever owned.
Mom is not a car person, obviously.
Mom basically only drove in town.
Small City, Evans, Indiana, maybe two or three miles to work and back.
That was like her entire driving, you know, I got in this thing
and had to drive it up up a highway a little bit to maybe 20 miles
to where my house was.
And I remember thinking it was like I was going to die.
It was like the all the suspension, everything was just super played out
and loose and sloppy.
The steering was sloppy.
The gear shift literally felt like like a broomstick in an empty bucket.
There was like, I don't know.
Is it in a gear? Is it not?
I don't know. It's just flailing around out there.
You got over 3000 RPM and it sounded like it was going to explode.
And to me, it was like the worst car imaginable.
And her mom thought it was the best car imaginable because it never broke.
You know, unlike it just explains how different people have different perceptions.
For her as a not as a person who doesn't like cars, it was a great car.
For me, as a person who does like cars, it was awful.
Well, that's the thing about Toyotas.
They generally appeal to people who don't like cars.
They do. They just work. Yeah.
Their job is to be non-offensive.
Yes. I remember having a Camry loner car once.
Boy, for not ever owning a Toyota, you sure have a Toyota story.
Yeah, I remember getting in it and think I described.
I picked it up and I was driving it.
And this was at that time, our daily driver was a 335 BMW.
And for some reason, the when we took it in to the dealer to do something,
they they didn't have any loners on hand.
They're like, I will hear you go to Enterprise or whatever and get a rental car.
And it was a Camry.
And I remember describing it as a Fisher Price baby's first car.
It felt like it should come with a giant plastic key to start it.
It's like all the buttons are huge and the gaps were giant and everything.
I'm just like, I don't get it.
I does not compute.
Well, now the Camry's kind of look like sports cars.
They've improved the aesthetic a lot.
I'll give them that.
And I will say this, the the latest version of the Land Cruiser slash
Lexus, whatever. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. The Lego looking car.
I actually I like them.
They made them smaller when it's the last time that happened.
No, I don't like the big juicy.
Yes, it's a lot. Bubbly Land Cruiser.
I mean, now it seems like the same size as a forerunner.
I think the forerunner is bigger. Really? Yeah.
Well, I think it kind of looks like the what is it the 55?
What is it? The iron pig? Yeah.
Yeah, it kind of looks like a new version of the 55.
I'm not a fan.
I like the fact that they made it smaller.
They made it still at least a solid rear axle.
Is it? Yeah, it's solid rear.
So that's appealing.
I mean, I'm not going to buy one, but that might get converted.
Seems like a positive.
I mean, I assume that they're like everything ridiculous,
like 75 grand or something, right?
Every car just gets bigger.
Like I pulled up next to on the highway, a what's a little the RAV four.
I'm like, this thing's gigantic now.
And plus, it was an off road addition, whatever.
That means like a TRD RAV four.
Is that even four wheel drive?
It's like front wheel drive with like part time rear or something.
Isn't it? I don't know.
Don't showing is boomer.
Yeah, for all these cars are so big.
Just to be clear, I'm not technically a boomer, but yes.
Yeah, well, I like my cars big.
But, you know, my first actually, so I said I had the 85 runner,
my first Toyota and only other Toyota, I think I had a 81 mini truck
in that kind of like a baby shit brown color.
You know, sure. Yeah.
And yeah, that little 22 R, not the RE, that thing was a champ, too.
It got no power, but you couldn't stall.
It was a little five speed in both the vehicles I had.
But I will say my experience with those older Toyotas is, you know, I'd like them.
You know, I have a soft spot in my heart for them.
I think the old mini trucks like very underrated the bed
that has the hooks on the outside.
No, yeah, kind of like the remember the Chevy love.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I had that. Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
Well, I was the thing putting the bed on the Toyota, I think for a while.
I think that was the mini truck thing was to put the love bed on or something
because the love bed, the step side love bed would give you a tighter bed
on a Toyota. I didn't know that love came in a step side.
But yeah, I don't know.
I've seen that.
It's like kind of a bronze color over at the Rubicon a few times.
You see that one? It's like pretty clean.
I don't know. Every once in a while, you see it seems like Toyotas come in two flavors.
You've either got completely roached, completely raisened.
And you know, that guy parties, don't follow him because he has.
He's probably from like Sonoma County or something like that, you know,
or the guy that's like, yeah, gone, Max Overlander with, you know,
he's got like an 80 series with all the like, it's got like, yeah, yeah.
He he rolls up to the KOA and propels three course meals, you know.
Well, yeah, there is a big dichotomy now.
I think especially after the Overland thing took over and yeah, you see those a lot.
They're like, not I guess you can't use mall crawler anymore
because they're not built as crawlers.
They're like, yeah, they're not mall crawlers, mall glampers or something like that.
But yeah, they always roll around with the gas tanks on at all times.
That's actually by Toyota, if you can beach. Yeah.
But yeah, what I do want to do today, too,
most everybody is familiar who listens.
This is probably familiar with the Toyotas in general, different models and stuff.
The Rover stuff is for most people who haven't been exposed to it or something.
It's kind of a weird brand.
And yeah, people don't make that.
People don't really think of it like when I went from my Toyota to the Land Rover.
I'd never thought Land Rover.
I was thinking more Jeep or more Toyota shit.
And I think most Toyota people are familiar with the Jeep brands.
Like if you saw like, you can't not be familiar.
Yeah, like everybody know, even if you haven't had a Jeep
and you're in the Toyota world, you know what an XJ is, you know what a, you know,
a TJ, blah, blah, blah.
But most people are not familiar with what Rovers have to offer.
They aren't. And I think especially because states in any
anything recent Rover has only marketed the luxury side
because they realize as a low volume manufacturer,
you just pile more luxury crap on and charge even more.
So now you got $200,000 Range Rovers rolling around.
Well, that was their whole rebrand thing, too, because they had the series trucks.
They had series threes in America and then they weren't making any kind of money.
So they pulled out and then I think it was 1988 downhill.
Since the Range Rover can hit the US shores.
It's 1988.
They rebranded as we're going to be Range Rover and we're going to be luxury SUVs.
And then that's when they were introduced back into America with the 88 Range Rover with luxury.
Well, I think that's one aspect to it.
That's kind of important into why, you know, it is what it is.
It's like, you know, for the last like 30 years,
if you're to buy a Range Rover and you kind of land Rover,
it's like they cost a relatively large amount of money.
They're kind of if you're buying it new. Yeah, you're fine.
So basically they're kind of luxury vehicles.
Whereas a Toyota is going to be more like a middle class vehicle,
except for the fancy ones.
Yeah. So Toyota is just all over the.
Yeah, a little bit.
They painted the brush all across it.
You know, you have the Lexus side of it, but generally speaking,
Land Rover is going to cost more when they're new.
I mean, does that mean that, like, they're better vehicles or better people driving it?
I mean, maybe they're better people driving it. Yes.
Yeah, maybe. But I mean, you know, we're at the point now
where they're cheap enough where you can buy them and rock crawl with them.
But I think one thing holding the back is like with a new Toyota,
people are buying new Toyotas to go off road in them.
They're like they're kind of expensive nowadays, but they're not crazy.
But most people at the price point, you're going to get a new Land Rover.
It's like, well, that's a lot of money.
You don't want to go bash them up.
So it takes like a good amount of time before they become to the off road sides.
I mean, yes, we we did just kick Toyota's ass six ways from Sunday in the in the car.
But that's not really off road in the way we think of it.
That's more like they basically built a Raptor fighter with the Defender Akta.
That's go fast stuff. You know, it's not a crawler.
But I think one aspect we're going to find like 150,000 plus.
So when you're buying a used Land Rover, they let's say you want to buy it to wheel
and you can get them pretty cheap now.
That's like the one good benefit of unreliable cars is nobody trusts them
after like 10 years and 100,000 miles.
So they're dirt cheap.
I think Rover's still up there and like the top whatever top two or something
of depreciation. Yeah.
So like depreciation, it's it sucks for certain people like if you buy it
and you but hey, if you're buying them used, that could be a good thing.
But one aspect, because they're like luxury cars that cost so much money
initially, you do notice that the creature conference like they're better.
They have a generally nicer interior and you'd find on like a 30 year old Toyota.
The frame is a lot stronger.
Yes, the ones with frames.
Yes, I think it's after all our four, they didn't get frames or something.
They're still apparently really strong.
They're very stiff, but they're not they're not about it.
They're not a frame after all, yeah.
But you know, like they're fully box frames, whereas in a Toyota,
you're not going to get that and just breaks.
Yeah, there's a lot of features that you get.
Yeah, in these older Land Rovers that are nice.
So you a couple of things.
First of all, we have to if you want to start back in the day,
Rover was a utility vehicle.
It was built postwar England had got the shit kicked out of them in World War Two.
They needed products they could export and bring in the hard currency
and they built a utility vehicle.
Hence the very first prototype Land Rovers actually had center steering
in the very it wasn't called anything but the Land Rover by the Rover Motor Car Company.
So there were no models.
There were no it's just the Land Rover.
And famously, the first prototype was built on a surplus Willis frame from the war.
But it was sketched out in the sand on the beach.
You know, all the all the the Rover lore there.
Look at all that show prep that dog did. Nice.
It'd be Maurice and somebody Wilks.
And I don't remember his brother's name was.
But anyway, the these were pure utilitarian agricultural vehicles.
You know, just bare basics.
Famously, the bodies are aluminum and that wasn't a corrosion risk
because they couldn't get steel.
You know, steel was just too hard to come by postwar England.
You know, well, that's one other aspect is, you know, compared to other models,
there's a lot of aluminum.
Yeah, although they're not lightweight vehicles
because the frames are fully boxed and quite heavy.
No, but thank God that they put the aluminum body panels on
because imagine these things weigh a shit ton.
Anyway, that progresses.
We go from the the single one model.
Eventually Rover spins that off.
It comes its own company Land Rover, as opposed to just being a model
within the Rover, you know, Rover cars.
And as we move up through the 50s, 60s, 70s,
we get we introduce a new model.
So now that by default makes the first one the series one.
So then we go from the series one to the series two three
and they come in different wheel bases and they're kind of Lego.
So did you want that as a pickup, as a station wagon, as a utility vehicle or
whatever? They're very interchangeable and they're very modular.
But they're still utility vehicles, solid axle, small four cylinder,
mostly engines, either gas or diesel.
They're only manual transmissions.
These are pure utility vehicles.
And eventually in what year did we start in the 70s with the Range Rover?
So Range Rover was designed, developed and I think I think it started in
68, late 68, 69 was designed, designed development in 70 was the first year
of Range Rover.
So not in the States, but in England.
Yeah. And it was it was still marketed as a utility truck.
If you it was the upscale, that was for the rich farmer.
Yeah.
It's for the farmer that wanted to then go to church on Sunday kind of thing.
So it had windows, windows instead of sliding windows.
By today's standards, it was incredibly rudimentary, incredibly basic.
But and it still had the same mechanicals, still the same power.
But you got a V8 now as an option.
Yeah, it's not that common in England at that time, but you had the choice
for the 3.5 liter V8.
Yeah. Well, that was the only choice at first in Range Rover,
because that's where they introduced the Rover V8, which is a Buick V8.
Yes, started as the 215 Buick.
Yeah. And Rover used that forever.
They wrote, they used that to from 1970 to 2004, I think so.
Yeah. I mean, forever.
My D2's.
Yeah, it's still the same.
Yeah, which is, you know, I actually think it's a good thing.
I really hate these super complex, like, you know, dual overhead cam motors and
shit like that. It's like, there's, you know, good and bad about all of it.
I mean, if you got to work on it, I just want simple.
Yeah. Yeah, no question.
And it is. I mean, so, yeah, really this, a lot of people will argue
between the first Grand Cherokee versus the first Range Rover as
what was the start of the luxury SUV? Where did that begin?
Are you talking about like a Wagoneer or something?
Yeah, the Wagoneer.
But first Wagoneer, I guess, yeah.
The Wagoneer's arguable because it was still on leaf springs.
Yeah. And we're all coil springs.
Yeah, but it did have wood paneling.
It did have wood paneling.
I don't even know when that first appeared. Late 60s?
The Wagoneer was earlier.
The Wagoneer was late 60s and then the Range Rover came out.
But yeah, I know the Range Rover was one of the first, if not the first,
with coil springs on all four corners and disc brakes on all four corners.
And so that's one of the things that will drive appealed to me when,
you know, making the transition for Toyota to the D2 is it does have a lot.
It's solid axle.
It has radius arms and then coils, you know, and wall.
Yeah, disc brakes and nice things.
Compared to say a Jeep of the era or something, you'd think that's the
equivalent of doing a long arm conversion that the suspension links are long.
It actually has really good suspension travel.
That's the thing is you can get, you know, some of these like 20 to 30 year old
Land Rovers and you could basically just upgrade what's already there and go
crawling with it rather than if you get like a second or third gen
forerunner, something like that or Tacoma is like, OK, you got to do a solid axle swap.
You have to like completely reconfigure how the car is built.
What sucks is it like Rover had a lot of good stuff going for it forever.
Like the hub centric on their axles is way better than most cars.
They're full float axles, too, and stuff like that.
And even a D2, the semi float is a nice design.
Yeah. Well, it's a different semi float than like there's
not C-clip and all that. Yeah.
And it's it's all these really good stuff.
It's just very poorly put together and then poor materials.
Interestingly, it seems like the as you get later and later into the 2000s,
you know, the earlier stuff still holds up as, you know, you look at an old series truck.
They're robust.
They're mechanically solid.
You don't have all the classic, you know, the standard jokes about whatever
with your Rover is going to going to kill you and die and you're going to explode
three feet after the drive off the lot.
But an old series truck wasn't like that at all.
And in most of the world, ever except for the US, they're still considered,
you know, Jeep is the one that everybody laughs at.
If you go to Europe, Australia or something, they're like, oh,
those are so terrible and unreliable.
But yeah, we have a different perspective in America.
Well, to be honest, most people say this stuff really have no idea.
I mean, most of them are just repeating, but they heard from their cousins,
brothers, sisters, roommate. Well, and, you know, in 88,
when the Range Rovers first came to America, it was supposed to be luxury.
So they put power, everything heated this heated windshields in them.
So there's a thousand relays. Oh, yeah.
A million feet of wire in the whole thing.
So yeah, no wonder you're going to have electrical issues when you have that much.
That is an issue.
And also the security systems they put in there, a little overzealous, you know,
really like there's a lot of theft of cars over in the UK.
Anyway, when we get the Range Rover, now we have two models.
So you've got the series truck, which by now we're up to the series three.
And then which came in multiple wheel bases and everything.
And again, this is a rare truck here, but you go to England, it's just like an F
150. It's just a just a farmer truck, nothing special, you know, comes in,
you know, you might find one that's done as a tow truck or an ambulance or a
military vehicle or, you know, it's just a just a truck.
Yeah, comes as a neat thing.
Rover had was they had their division to build all kinds of specialty.
Well, if you want, you could go to Rover and say, I want an X.
I want a series three or a Range Rover.
And I want it to be an ambulance or a tow truck and Land Rover would then build
you that and massive aftermarket catalogs of weird stuff.
Like the the transfer case has a PTO option.
So you you could order a factory, you know, snow plow or, you know,
what, you know, agricultural implements and, you know, yeah, pumps and all sorts
of weird stuff like for forestry and all sorts of craziness.
Well, that's the thing about the Land Rovers, too, is they have a really
good transfer case going with, you know, potential PTO stuff.
We get up to the the 70s, late 70s.
When did the LT2 30 first come out?
Was it with the Range Rover, I guess?
No, it would have been later after it would have been in in a series three.
Did we have the LT2 30?
I didn't think so.
Now, as in the late 80s, the LT2 30, because before it was an
LT77 transmission, which has the transfer case integrator, maybe it's the LT85.
But anyways, no, it was just transmission.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I think it came on a Range Rover classics in like 89 or
90, I know they had the LT2 30 in 1985 to 88.
So basically what the LT2 30 is, like why it's kind of important.
These are all wheel drive vehicles.
So permanent four wheel drive.
Yeah.
So the outputs for the rear are going to be off center.
So they're going to be a passenger bias on most of these.
It's just like a Land Cruiser for the Toyota people.
Yeah, just like FJ.
Yeah, like an 80.
But one nice thing about it, which is sort of unique.
It has a good, it has like a three and a half to one low range.
So it's better than your normal new process thing.
And it's a four gear transmission.
It's a four gear case, no chains.
Although I think chains are a little underrated.
I think they work fine.
They got a bad rep in the 80s with their when they first came out
because they were garbage when they first came out.
Yeah, they've gotten better.
But so the LT2 30s are gear driven, which, you know, people like
and they're not loud or anything.
Some gear driven things.
They're good gears, isn't it?
Yeah, some, you know, gear transfer cases can get kind of loud
like atlases or something.
But these ones are quiet.
They work good.
And they're robust.
They're strong.
You could use them out of the box.
You don't have to modify them.
And yeah, they're robust.
They can handle quite a bit.
Yeah.
So one would argue that's where the Land Cruiser stole the idea
for all wheel drive with the FJ80.
Sure, let's go with that.
So I think the FJ80 was the first all wheel drive Land Cruiser.
Yeah.
And then we would have a center differential lock, just like an 80.
So it's almost like they cocked up.
Yeah, but anyway, we move on.
So we've got a two product range now.
We've got the luxury range over.
We've got the utility Land Rover.
And then in the 90s, we introduced the Discovery, which is the mid ground.
So now we have the classic.
That's where we we progress from there with kind of a three model lineup.
So as we're going through this, it could be kind of confusing
if you're not familiar with these vehicles.
So the vehicles that you've gone over before, I want to give
like a good Toyota counterpart to them.
Like the series trucks are all pretty similar.
You're thinking like 40 series Toyota, probably.
Yeah, I think it's very similar to a 40 series where it has that kind of
a kind of smaller boxy kind of profile.
Top goes off the door and come off.
The windshield folds down.
It's all the standard stuff.
In fact, I mean, you can compare an FJ 40 with a series 88.
I mean, they're almost identical in the offset transfer cases.
Leaf sprung.
The FJ 40 is arguably better built, but arguably.
Yeah.
Both of them are kind of expensive these days.
Oh, yeah.
Both of them are kind of just going through the roof in the last 20 years.
But I would say that's a pretty good comparison.
So when you're talking series, think of Land Rover version of a FJ 40.
And, you know, very tech technology is going to be very basic to all that kind
of stuff, be kind of a rough ride, 50s to 70s, basically, in terms of the era.
And then what's the next ones?
You got the Range Rovers.
Well, then you can also throw in Defender too.
Well, that's where you get really modern.
It's just a updated.
Yeah, that would be the 74 79 series Land Cruiser is like
a Defender counterpart where it's all it's modernish with fuel injection,
but still old and probably if you are and probably overpriced.
Yes, you're generically picturing a Rover.
You're thinking of a Defender on your age, you might be picturing
like, you know, Mutual of Omaha and, you know, Jim down there,
wrestling the Rhino or whatever it was in an old Land Rover or whatever.
There was the those are those are series trucks.
And the Defender is basically just a modernized series truck on coil springs
and newer running gear and things.
But but yeah, really pretty overpriced for what you get because
they're stuck selling them here a while ago.
So you have a premium for scarcity for four years in the States.
Yeah. Four.
So Defender was only 94 to 96, I think.
So 94, 6 and 7 and 92.
92, they had the 110 or 93.
Um, yeah, and then for what it's worth, we should also mention the model.
If it's a 90 and 88, that's the wheelbase.
That's that's how they designated the models.
There's also a 130 and there were some oddballs.
You know, there's an 80 inch early in the day.
But yeah, basically.
So we had the Range Rover Classics, which span a pretty, you know, a couple of decades.
Right. Yeah.
And then you have like some different variations, two doors and stuff like that.
The Range Rover Classic, I mean, it famously is on display at the Louvre.
It's it's automotive art.
It is a very good look.
It's very handsome. It's my personal favorite Rover.
It's not as aerodynamic as a shoebox, but I would equate the body style
to similar to like a 60, 62 cruiser.
I'm not. Yeah.
You know, it's a little smaller than those, but it's the same type of,
you know, a lot of like right angles, kind of boxy.
Yeah, split tailgate, things like that.
Yeah.
But I would say that's what would you compare like a Range Rover Classic
to another like another Land Cruiser?
Yeah, probably like a 60, 60.
Well, the hard part is I think as far as Toyota goes,
the only real good comparison we have is Land Cruisers,
because everything else in the Toyota off-road world.
Yeah, is either four or many tries.
I guess you could compare the it to I.
So my like Range Rover Classic that is like a buggy reminds me of my old 85.
Yeah, just because.
Well, my argument is your discovery is your forerunner,
because it's supposed to be a lot more base.
Yeah, I think a discovery is more like a 80 series cruiser.
You know, all will drive.
It's got solid axles on it.
Similar size, relatively heavy.
I don't know if it's relatively heavy as much as it is very heavy.
Yeah, yeah.
But I would, yeah, I would probably actually equate most of Rover's
two different Land Cruisers.
Yeah, probably. In general.
Again, I don't know the Toyota world well enough to come up with good parallels
to most of them, but obviously in more late model stuff,
then we get into the the full bougie Lexus stuff.
You know, yeah.
Yeah, but one thing to keep in mind with all the vehicles that we're talking
about so far, want to appeal to it.
If you want to just turn into a rock car, ladies, these are all the older trucks.
Yeah, so these have solid front axles.
These have solid axle radius arm suspension with coils on it.
So it starts off a little more capable than, you know, your old four runners
or something like that, that might have the torsion bar, independent front
suspension, things like that.
So it takes a little less work.
The Rover world will stay with that up till 2004.
And then in 2005, it's all change.
Yeah. Once you get into like the 2005
era and newer, it's they got rid of all the solid axles.
Yeah, right.
Other than at least in the US, they did keep the defender,
you know, which was, you know, the military based
derivative. But basically, that was that's the classic Land Rover with its
literally has interchangeable parts going back, you know, 30 plus years.
You could take up the doors from so 59 was the first series to Land Rover.
You take doors from a 59 Land Rover and put them on a 2016 Defender.
It's yeah, you'd have to change these latches and stuff.
But the doors themselves are physically the same dimension.
Yeah. So if you're looking to get a Land Rover and do like any kind of rock
crawling with it, you probably stop in 2004.
Pretty much for a couple reasons, you know, number one, like,
you know, those vehicles are relatively cheap now,
depending on what you're going with.
And there's a lot of them out there.
And well, I don't know then, too, because Greg and I were just discussing
this is stupid discovery ones are hiking up in price like crazy.
It's hard to find an unmodified stock discovery one, particularly if you wanted
to find, say, a manual transmission in the States, because of course,
anything that came to the U.S. got all the options shoveled into.
You know, it's got to be luxury for the Americans.
And so it's hard to find the simpler things like, you know, one that doesn't
have a sunroof, one that doesn't have all the bells and whistles is rare,
which is funny. Now is desirable to us.
Yeah, funny as Rover people.
That's what we want is the one without all the things because all
you know, some country, you know, something and those things break and leak.
Yeah, you know, so it's just not have them.
And then so once you get into like the newer stuff, like post 2004,
you're probably more overland.
Yeah, I mean, it's true.
Landrovers do not put you in a box, but you're an overland overland vehicles.
I think they the rock crawling side of it is the oddball.
Like that is a very small percentage of what people are doing with them.
The bigger market is the overland market.
Yeah. And you have good options there.
We should if we're going to stick to the lane that we're designed for,
the LR threes and fours and stuff are really good overlanders because they're
they actually are. They are boxy.
So yeah, well, yeah, again, shoeboxes.
Lots of space inside to equate that to a Toyota real quick.
If in case they're not familiar with that LR three and four,
which are pretty similar vehicles, basically the same vehicle,
but these are vehicles that are fully independent suspension,
fully airbagged series Land Cruiser, the really modern,
yeah, bubbly looking one.
I think that's a 200
Again, I don't know my total is well enough to point it out.
But yeah, you're dealing with at that point in the States,
you basically are dealing with a V eight, either a four point four or five liter V eight,
three to 400 horsepower approximately.
These are going to be six feet,
automatics, full time audit, full time four wheel drives.
A lot of computer.
Yeah, lots of stuff.
And yeah, that suspension response came.
Yeah, Rover invented this.
Don't let people tell you that they're whatever.
A tracks, a track or anything that is still inferior to what Rover does.
Yeah.
And independent, independent non Rover people will verify that.
Yeah, the the terrain response thing is copied a lot by
hill descent control, all that crap started with Rover.
And I mean, I don't like that.
They're very good at it.
They don't like it.
It does personally.
It works good.
Yeah.
You know, yeah.
And I use it in Merlin's car, her L 322 which would be like
L 322 is probably the most common range Rover we have in our club.
That's the one that most people picture.
That would be like 2003 to 2012.
Yeah.
And those are really good vehicles.
But I mean, if you're just looking
for an A to B snow car up in Lake Tahoe, it's funny, they're really good.
So I have an L three, 22.
That's my wife's daily.
It's a supercharged version, 2010.
So you've got 510 or 15 horsepower or something like that.
It's running on a 30 what am I on 32 or 33 inch tire right now.
Just a small lift and, you know, it's just it's her commuter and slash.
We take it and do, you know, mild wheeling with it.
It's not as practical space wise because it's, you know, it doesn't.
It's not a giant box compared to, say, the, you know, they're surprisingly small.
It's fun cargo.
And of course, Eric, you've got one as well.
Yeah, you got one.
And one thing about them, which is nice is you could pick them up cheap.
We got our guys in 65 hundred bucks and it's a really good looking vehicle.
You get a lot of this was a 100000 dollar car.
New. Yeah.
That's why depreciation is great.
It's a used Rover markets.
Good. If you buy it new, you're going to get screwed.
But the thing about those is because they're so expensive initially,
they all have plenty of power when you get up there.
So Merlin's car, which is not supercharged,
still gets like 400 plus horsepower.
I think the supercharged version is like 525 ish.
Something that gets a little over 500.
So you get quite a and the interior is like really nice.
The air suspension works really good when it works.
That's that's kind of a pain.
Yes, so by the time you get to the L 322, it's not so troublesome.
It was earlier.
So say it is giving you trouble.
Haven't really been there.
It puts it in limp mode.
It does all sorts of stuff.
So some people go into not have a lot of problems of mine.
Mine's not been a problem.
No air suspension.
So much I did kill a bag.
I punctured a bag, but I was able to drive home anyway.
But the yellow three, I had more issues with the air suspension.
Well, again, most of my problems there have been from modified components.
So we had a couple of problems of the air suspension and it's very common.
If you buy one of these cars, you likely will have to deal with some component
in the air suspension.
I've changed front bags for leaking once.
Not a not a huge deal, not a big expense.
And then we had this other problem where we had a bad wire going to the height
sensor and that was a bitch.
It was a bitch to figure out a bitch to fix.
But it when it does go wrong, it has so many safety features.
Yes, that it really, really stops you.
And I think that's why I got with the current generation of things.
I don't own a current generation truck, but with like the LR three.
So the Discovery three basically in the rest of the world.
It seemed like, oh, a tail lights out.
Drop it to the one stops.
Yes, like that's where this her over got its reputation.
It's like anything it doesn't know what to do.
Just the safety, just put it on, just deflate the suspension, put it on a
bump stops and you're like, please don't.
I just don't need to do that.
There's a reason Rover has the reputation it does.
Yeah, but the nice thing now that, you know, these vehicles are old enough,
they're relatively cheap.
There's enough experience with all the problems with the suspension where you
can YouTube pretty much anything.
They also have coil conversion kits.
So if you want to just get out of that kind of world completely, you can.
I did that to our LR three.
And there's not that many vehicles that you can get that much crap for like,
you know, six to eight grand.
Yeah, you get a lot for your money.
Yeah, I mean, in a LR three for L 322
You get a very comfortable ride, a lot of power.
It looks good.
The interior is like really nice and modern looking for, especially considering,
you know, it might be 15, 20 years old.
But you do you do get a lot for it, but it does come with a few specific headaches
that you might not get with a Toyota.
Yeah, we're converting every Toyota owner right now.
I'm sure of it.
Oh, yeah.
But there's here and isn't like, where can I get one of these?
Well, you know, like you said, there's with anything there's pros and cons,
but I switched over because of the pros to where when I got my I went from the
85 forerunner, which was a great car to, you know, it was a underpowered
manual car with not a lot of creature comforts in it.
And then we went to this Discovery two, which has more power.
Those don't have a tub, but they're solid axle.
They have the coils.
They have nice interiors.
You sit up higher in a Land Rover.
It's got the stadium seating.
Yeah, you know, stuff to rear.
So I used to have half doors in my Toyota.
You do not need half doors in like a Discovery or something
because the you sit up so high and the windows are so that's a weird Toyota thing.
They always put you right.
You got to sit on the floor and I don't get that.
It's very uncomfortable to me.
Yeah. So with these Land Rovers,
you don't you don't never see any with a half doors, really, because you don't need them.
You could there you sit so high and the windows are so tall that you could just
yeah, get your torso out of there.
Yeah, but I think it's really helpful with rock crawling
because even though the discoveries have a relatively big hood,
because you sit higher, you can you can see over.
Yeah, you can see pretty close like within any like, I don't know, six feet,
six or eight feet, depending on what your lift is.
Yeah, it's it's a lot better than a Toyota
because I've ran in a mini truck with my buddy and it was
you felt like you're in a cockpit almost.
Oh, yeah. So you've ever been in a mini truck that has an internal cage.
It's ridiculous. That's how his was.
Yeah, there's no room for anything.
I remember I had to fold my foot sideways to get it in.
Yeah. And then it's like so by sitting up high and having these big windows,
it's like the opposite of a FJ cruiser.
If you ever sat in the FJ cruiser, it's like you got to plan your line out
like 30 yards ahead because you're not going to see it again.
Yeah. Imagine if Don had bought an FJ cruiser.
Yeah, so I was thinking like, what would his life be now?
What Toyota person would he be?
Would he be a rev limiter? Oh, God.
Without Don would be rev limiter.
He'd be DJ Don.
3.4 supercharger.
Oh, God.
When you go into the pure four by four events and.
Oh, yeah.
Those guys are totally my my my cup of tea right there.
Any drink fireball?
Yeah, I avoid the ball based whiskies.
No, I I don't know.
I mean, I nearly bought a Jeep a couple of times, but but I didn't.
You know, I almost bought a Jeep.
I've had a Jeep.
I had my first D2 I bought.
I had an electrical problem that left me stranded in snow.
No, it was a real pain in the ass.
And then I was it took me forever to figure it out.
But eventually it got sorted out.
But in between that, I was so frustrated that I was like, you know what,
fuck it, I'm going to see if I can get like a new JK that just works.
It's new.
Doesn't have all these problems.
I think that's where a lot of the people end up with a Jeep.
Is it I just want this one?
Something that's brand new and that nothing is all the other guys have
a lot of bolt on and a lot of accessory market.
Yeah.
And in particularly in states, the Rover market is much smaller,
but and much more expensive.
That's one thing that the Jeep world is just easy.
Yeah, you can just build it on a catalog.
You know, you buy your 100 and 99 piece
Harbor Freight toolkit and and suddenly you've got, you know, tons
and forties on your your JK or JL that you can, you know, you can buy it
from the factory with a 37 inch tire for God's sake, you know, you.
Well, I think that's where it's no question that Jeep is the easy answer.
Our battle for Rover, as far as this small demographic in the rock crawling Rover
because by Toyota, you can buy rock crawling specific Toyota branded things.
You can sell an axle swap at Toyota easily.
You can buy Cromoly axles for Toyotas easily.
Whereas Rovers to buy Cromoly axles, you've got two or three options.
All of them over a thousand dollars.
And you got to get them shipped from another continent.
Generally, I mean, first you go to Timco.
Yeah.
And the big hot dog thing back in the day was to put Toyota axles and
diffs in the Rover housing, so no more, not anymore.
But that was the big for a while in Australia, they were doing nine inches.
Are they doing four nines?
But not so much.
Yes, although it will be.
Well, I think that's another core aspect, which is a big difference
between a Land Rover and a Jeep or Toyota is yeah, we don't have Marlin
Crawler or Trail Gear or anything like that, which is a good and bad thing.
Mostly bad because it makes it hard for it's harder.
But it also means that you have to be able to get to be able to roll your own.
Well, that's one thing that appealed to me once I got into the Land Rover world
to where I wanted to kind of buy more Land Rovers and build them up is
the hobby part of building a vehicle is it's more difficult, but it's more rewarding
because every Land Rover you see.
So me and Don run the Rovicon, which is basically it's the only
Land Rover event at the Rubicon.
So it's just a rock crawling Land Rover event.
So one I think there's only one other rock crawling Land Rover event,
like dedicated rock crawling.
Yeah, it's not a big world.
But when you go to our event and you see the different vehicles,
it's a lot different from going to a Jeep, Jamboree or a Toyota event.
When you go to one of those, this is J.K.M. 40s.
Yeah, you see that's a J.K.M. 40s.
You see so many vehicles that there goes a J.K.
It's on 40s that they're built with the exact same kit.
So when I had my 85 forerunner, it was pretty standard.
Rear leaves in the front, 63 Chevy's in the rear.
You know what I mean? It's like a standard setup.
There's no real standard setup with the Land Rover.
So each vehicle that you see is pretty custom and pretty unique.
It's not you're not going to see two of them that basically look exactly the same.
Yeah. Well, the thing that drew me to Rover is that I
I always like to be different, you know.
I joke, it's like, OK, well, when I was in high school,
I drag race to Ford when Chevy was the easy answer.
When I was road racing, I raced an Alfa Romeo in the Midwest,
when most people didn't even know what that brand was.
Alfa, Alfa Romeo, who makes that?
You know, you can picture in Indiana what an Italian car would look like.
And, you know, now that I'm into four-wheel drive stuff,
I run a Rover instead of the, you know, the common answer,
the easy answer, a Jeep or or even a Toyota.
I like to be different.
And no, that's not easier or cheaper.
But, you know, the world would be boring if we all chose the same answer.
Right. Hmm. That's true.
And I'm not into beige.
Yeah, but I will say in moments of weakness, it's like, God,
I wish I could just call somebody up, like especially located in California
to have parts shipped for like a quarter of the cost.
Well, that's so my 88s, there's no Rover drivetrain left in it.
And it is nice when I need a bearing or just something simple as a wheel stud.
You go to summit racing, it's on the shelf and it's 299
Yes. So that's a that's a good feeling sometimes.
And I understand why you'd want to build a Jeep.
Yeah, there's definitely a pros and cons.
But we want to go over, you know, more of the pros.
So you look cooler.
You feel better about yourself.
Yeah, you don't have that Toyota stigma, that stink attached to you.
Yeah, that's a big off, yeah.
On the Rubicon, the two of you guys have a lot of stigma about
wakeboard party speakers and rev limiter.
Oh, yeah.
At, you know, put it in double low, put both gearboxes in low
and just hold it on the floor three miles an hour.
Peggy, the limiter,
although if I had a Rover that would do that, I'd probably do it.
So. But, you know, it is Toyota is a good entry level vehicle to get into
crawling, because one big thing about it, too, is
I would break a lot less parts with Toyota's because they weigh like I wonder about.
Oh, God, yeah.
I think that makes a big difference, because like you said, it's a people think,
oh, aluminum body, it's going to be super light.
It's not. It's a fully boxed, heavy frame.
And usually you're dealing with a V8.
It's aluminum V8, yes, but it's for America, mostly V8 trucks.
And well, all those other like fancy things like the seats and all the way
a lot more than the Toyota stuff.
The one thing, yeah, is when you shut a not to make fun of them,
but when you shut a four runner door, it sounds hollow.
When you shut a door on a 90s Range Rover Discovery, it sounds heavy
because it is heavy.
It's it's got sound deadening.
Oh, I forgot.
I weighed the doors off my disco when I had them off a while back.
And I was shocked. I mean, just picking them up.
I'm like, holy crap. Oh, God.
And they don't like they don't look like that much, but they're heavy.
Well, the other thing is aluminum.
How could it be that heavy is like still inside it on the discoveries?
Is they have like this is goes back to like they're kind of marketed
for luxury as well as capability, but they have two sunroofs on them.
Yeah, those sunroof, you know, the windows and all the mechanism,
they are heavy roof with sunroofs like way so much more than one without them.
So you have two sunroofs on them with all the BS attached to them.
Then you have those alpine windows, which are like the little
little tiny windows on the side, which I don't I don't know what they
are really supposed to do.
But for when you look at the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park and stuff.
Yeah. But all that stuff adds a lot of weight.
So yeah, a D two, which is a little heavier than D one,
but you're probably talking curb weights like, you know, five and a half.
I bet about 5000 Yeah.
Yeah. So you end up breaking a lot more parts when your vehicle is really heavy.
And the problem with some of those two is a lot of the weight is going to be in the rear.
Yeah. So it makes climbing sometimes a little trickier.
Well, because rovers have most of their weight in discoveries anyway,
have most of their weight over the back, the gas tanks there,
the the big roof is there, the windows, everything's there.
Yeah. And then you've got to hang like a spare tire and like tin gallons,
cherry cans and all that stuff off your rear bumper too, because that's the only place.
Or in classic Rover tradition, we need a roof rack with
because we saw a Camel Trophy picture and they had like
everything in the kitchen sink on the roof rack.
So I'm going to do that too.
And it looks like 6000 pounds on the roof rack.
Yeah. And like a Toyota, like my forerunner,
it had the gas tank off to one side, but between the axles between the axles,
which makes a huge difference.
Yeah. A lot of better trucks are waiting to turn axles.
Another plus to the Rover, though, if you look at a Rover chassis from below,
almost everything's above the frame rails. Yeah, that is true.
There's nothing hanging down.
Yeah. But then the other flip side to that, especially compared to Jeep is
it's a very narrow frame.
Yes. Yes. So it's hard to package stuff.
Yeah. So what you're doing like rock siders and stuff like that, the leverage is tricky.
And you can't fit link mounts anywhere because it's a V8.
So you got two exhaust pipes coming down.
So you can't if you're going to three link a Rover. Very tough.
You're in a huge battle for space. Yeah.
So I have mentally gamed that out multiple times on my disco.
And it's still on. Yeah.
It's really. And you cannot buy rock
siders at work. You have to make them.
And now. And again, that comes back to is a European truck.
Europeans aren't typically rock crawlers, particularly the English.
There's a handful out there.
But, you know, they're more green laning and overlanding and stuff like that.
And go around the rocks, not over.
But that is the mentality. Why would you try?
You can go around that. Why would you go over it?
Yeah. Not to say that.
I mean, they do some pretty crazy stuff.
You look at like they're some of their trials, competitions and things.
You know, they're they do interesting things, too.
But mud, not they don't typically do rock crawling.
So they don't design their equipment for rock crawling.
And if you're buying aftermarket that's coming out of
wherever, Italy, Germany, England, whatever, you know, it's a
definitely the minority of the aftermarket companies.
You have to deal with that.
You look at, say, a adrenaline four by four.
They make some pretty hardcore stuff.
You could say terraform and most of their stuff is less hardcore.
You know, you know, their sliders, their arms, their diff guards or whatever
are usually not up to, let's say, they're not up to West Coast rock
crawling standards. No, they're just not a lot of, you know,
support for rock crawling and Land Rovers like there is for Toyotas or Jeeps.
Yeah. So if you want a good business plan out there, or if you just want to be
a cooler person, you branch away from Toyota and get a rover.
Yeah. Well, like I said, the nice thing is you, you know, it's kind of fun.
You do end up doing more custom stuff because of that, like just the rock
sliders, everybody who really rock crawls in them has had to just make their own.
And and they do it in with different strategies.
Like I cut, you know, boxes out of the the sills, you know,
Robert went under and he doesn't like to do that.
Like so everything's kind of unique.
Yeah. Mine's still below the sill and then welded back to the frame
at three different points and they attached to the sills.
That's a standard thing on a rover.
But I think the next generation cut holes in the sill is often basically
roadside at the boat side of the thing. That's the next one.
Yeah, that's down the road.
No one's gone about as extreme as you can go on a rover at this point
without getting away from the rover like the rest of us.
Yeah. The and still make it look like a discovery.
Yeah. I think that's the range of a classic still looks like a range
rover classic, right? Yeah. Yours doesn't. Mine doesn't.
Julia kind of does. For if you open the hood, it does.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think that's the other really hard part about being a rover guy
is there's some weird stigma in the rover community about keeping your rover rover.
And I don't know if it's because it has all these rover components
so you don't want to put Dana or whatever else in it.
But like if any time L.S. swap the rover, people go, why, why?
Oh, no, that's for the 200 TDI. Yeah.
So that is a big difference between the two brands.
Well, the three brands were Jeep and Toyota.
People don't mind chopping them up. Yeah.
There's so many out there.
It's not. You don't think twice about a Toyota or a Jeep on one ton axles.
But if a rover has one ton axles, it's sort of, well, that's not a rover anymore then.
Yeah, people in the rover community can really get caught up on, you know,
that kind of they like to call it heritage, you know, and making it still remain a rover.
I don't care personally.
I mean, my classic has.
That's why Don's the hero of the rover world is he's he's still rovary ish.
So on forties, I'm on rover housings.
And the thing is a smarter man than me would have just thrown one tons under it.
Yeah, just buy some day.
And as you know, find early was early Chevy Chevy has a driver drop.
So I think he's 60.
Yeah.
Like my classic has a kingpin GM.
Yeah. So they're expensive and more rare than their driver side boards,
but and their offset front and rear.
Well, that's a similarity between Toyotas and rovers.
Yeah. He's a lot of passenger drop stuff.
Our housings are much like the classic eight inch Toyota.
It's a swivel ball with a CV joint inside it.
And it's a drop out center section like a Toyota or a nine inch Ford.
So there's similarities there.
I think actually the Toyota axle is kind of copied off of the axle.
Rover Rover came out.
Don't let anyone ever fool you.
Rover was 1948 and Land Cruiser was 1950.
So yeah, anything Land Cruiser ever did was just a copy of Land Rover.
So I'm going to both take a dig at Toyota and give them some props here.
Toyota, as a manufacturer, doesn't matter what it is.
They don't invent or innovate or do anything new.
They wait for someone else to do it.
And then they take it.
People are screaming at their radio out of it.
Yeah. And they get it to be.
So whatever, look, when Lexus appeared, what did they do?
They took a Mercedes and benchmarked that and said, we can do this better.
Just want everyone to remember this is Don saying this.
So we're on the Rubicon and you're looking for something to vandalize.
It's not all the Rover people said that.
So just don't know.
But that's very true.
Toyota is not one to take chances or to innovate.
Toyota refines and yeah.
And it's just just takes it and makes it the best they can make.
But they don't take chances.
They they they're not ones to I think the one place
where Toyota actually innovated was with the RX 300
because there wasn't really people playing
that tweener crossover game so much.
So they were one of the early people to get into that.
But like I said, they they wait for someone else to do it first.
And then they come and they go better.
The whole all their various modes of traction control,
whatever they call a track and all that, that's all copied from Rover.
Rover did it first.
I know that in and in this case, you know, I would say Rover actually
and I'm not joking at this point.
I think Rover actually does that better.
They're that is something they're extremely good at.
But trust me, Rover has I'm not blind.
I'm not ridiculously faithful.
Well, so plenty of shortcomings.
Right now it's a Jaguar Land Rover.
It's like the same thing.
And there are some, you know, balls and strikes.
Yes, they do miss sometimes.
Absolutely.
I'm not.
I'm not a fan of when.
So let's take Rover's quote unquote hardcore truck, the Defender.
Which up until 2016 remained, I mean, it was a tractor.
It was a direct, direct lineage back to the original Land Rover.
As Tyler was saying, doors interchange for like 50 years almost, you know,
stuff that.
What were you saying about innovation?
Yeah, yeah, the Defender officially ended in 2016.
And then of course, they continuously doing, you know, special additions.
Oh, we found three more of them.
Oh, let's put in a 400 horse V8 and call it, you know, but.
The classic Defender, the original Defender ended in 2016, not in the states,
but overseas, it was gone from us.
We only had it for like three years here officially, but.
The modern Defender, when it was, they were, you know, we knew for a long time
they were showing and talking, it's like, oh, what's the new Defender going to be?
And I was right there in all the forums and all the channels and all that stuff.
And I'm like, take a Jeep, Rubicon, benchmark that, make it a little nicer,
give it a little more power, accoutrement
and let it give it some more towing capacity, charge 10, 15,000 more.
Bam, home run.
Building in-ears, Grenadier is what we wanted to do that.
They didn't do that at all.
They built a fully independent, you know, near luxury vehicle.
Yeah, but to be fair, I think you see a lot of them out there.
Oh, it's great.
It's a sales success.
It sells like crazy.
I pass like four of them on a drive.
I mean, it's probably better than just, you know, doing what you're saying.
From a marketing standpoint, it's not what we want.
Yeah, from a marketing standpoint, I made the right decision.
It's not what we wanted, but it's not what I want.
I mean, we're Luddites.
We want, I want a tractor.
I want solid axles and simple and easy to repair maintain.
And I don't need every luxury under the sun.
And I don't need remote.
I don't need an app to lower my seats.
Yeah, I wish they built that.
Then I would buy one, use 10 years after.
You know, it's, I still wouldn't be in the market for one.
Yeah, I mean, I may someday buy a mod, a new defender.
Yeah, I could see that replacing our Range Rover as a kind of a daily driver slash
overlander platform. Say it out loud.
But, but I would never buy that to be a crawler.
There are people building them as car.
You can do portals.
You can do 37s.
We've had Kong has come and run the Rubicon with this.
So it would be a new defender built by a Land Rover.
As far as extreme as you can go with a new defender, I think.
Yeah, probably not advised for most people.
Yeah. It's the wrong tool to start with.
Just, you know.
Well, any tool that costs 120 grand is probably not what you want to start with.
Yeah, what's the actual entry level?
Theoretically, if you ordered a base, base, base, you're never going to find it on a lot.
But if you're going to be close to 100 grand, I would think.
I think it's like 60.
Yeah, 60 for the base.
If you could actually find it.
I don't know if you can get a night.
I don't think they're doing the 90s anymore or something like that.
Maybe, yeah.
So maybe the night in America.
And again, one of the things that I'm going to be, you know, a quote unquote
purist here, but 90, 110, 130 no longer refers to the wheelbase.
It's just small, medium and large size.
Yeah. But yeah, a new 90 is not 90 inches anymore.
It's probably 105 or something.
But that's the two door.
It'd be much like a scale of like a two door Bronco.
Well, I mean, 60 grand is not bad.
I mean, it's cheaper than a new one or a lot of that.
Yeah, you're not going to.
Plus, you probably wouldn't want it on it.
I don't know if you could actually get the $60,000 one in America
because once you get America has to have all the luxury bits.
Yeah, I know when they first came out, they did.
You could order them without air suspension.
I don't know if you can order them anymore without air suspension.
Yeah. And if you want to go crazy, they have them up to like,
I think like the Octa is probably 300 grand or something.
No, it's not that much.
I think it's about 180 for an Octa.
That's it.
You can probably just 180 for a car.
You can probably push it to 200 with you get some deluxe color or something special.
You had a color match to your purse doll.
But the one that if you want to see this.
You go full Beverly Hills on that crap, you know.
If you want to see Kong, you could look up on Instagram or something.
Go to like a look up RovaCon.
He was there a few years ago, but that was brand new.
And then it was ultra modified to fit 37s.
It's like as it came off the lot was probably like 130.
That was a V8 truck.
Yeah, it was like probably it was north of 100, I'm sure.
I bet that to have that truck to that level is probably $200,000 truck.
I was going to say $75,000, but yeah, it might be because you had some frame drops.
He's a dealer skid plates.
And he had all the custom all the work.
If there's an option, he put it on it.
And then if there's an aftermarket option, he put that on as well.
And then he had stuff custom made.
Yeah, but it's an interesting build.
I think a TFL did a YouTube thing on it.
Right. Yeah.
So it's out there in the internets, if you want to see it.
Yeah.
But that does show that it's possible.
It is possible.
And when we were it was a hot year on that RovaCon and Rubicon and I was in my
ADA, which is no luxuries at all.
So I'm hot and sweaty and sticky.
Equivalent of like a 40 or a fly vendor.
I'm disgusting.
And I remember walking over to him and he rolled his window down because he had
his windows up and the cool air that was blowing out of the cab.
And he said, oh, yeah, we have our cooled seats on as well.
Yes.
And these things have like a 360 cameras on there.
Oh, of course.
I don't know.
So kind of like AI technology where pieces of mold together.
So it's like a video game almost where you see everything.
I'll probably get that on a Kia now.
I don't know.
Yeah, probably being what it is.
But yeah, but now that was pretty neat just knowing that he's running
Rubicon in luxury and in a nice climate controlled environment.
Yeah, I took him through that like Arnold's Rock squeeze area.
Did he go through the squeeze?
Yeah.
Oh, man, I took him through there.
I was like, oh, this is probably not a good idea.
Yeah, it is big, but we got him, you know, once you start going through,
it's like, well, turn it back.
You can't make it work.
I mean, I have the time I rubbed the rear of my truck going through there.
We did fairly scrape the was that PPF.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So we didn't scratch the paint, but we've barely scraped the protective coating
on it, but otherwise he got through.
But yeah, it's scary spotting that car because, you know, how much money is
into it and you're like, well, I don't want to fuck up his show.
Yes.
And not only that, but it's like, well, I have no idea what the tendency
of this vehicle to do is where the weight is and exactly how it shifts
differently than a solid axle.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, normal suspension truck because it's air suspension, so it'll do different things.
Again, that's the thing that Rover has done for decades at this point, where
in off road modes, the air suspension tries to mimic a solid axle.
You know, they do.
OK.
I will say they're better than you think they are, you know, but they're not rockcrawlers.
No, it's just too big, too heavy to, you know, you're limited on the size
of how much tire you're going to get under it without doing heavy mods, things like that.
They're they are generally speaking, and I don't know if I can still hold that true.
But I used to say, you know, on a modern Range Rover or Defender or any of them,
they're generally the best in class off road.
But you have to weigh that against the class.
So with a modern Range Rover, you're talking about 100 and fifty
200000 dollar stuff, you're looking at whatever the big full ticket.
The Land Cruiser would be the Lexus in America.
You know, that would be the direct comparison.
A Wagoneer.
And now the ultra bougie current Grand Wagoneer would be in that market.
You know, these are these are luxury cars that can go off road.
And Rover hasn't completely forgotten their heritage.
But it seems like every year it gets a little bit less.
Pretty close.
But they do still retain, you know, you still have low range gearboxes.
You still have optional rear lock or at least the front is all computer control.
And you spend that much money on a vehicle.
They're always going to give you an abundance of power, which is.
Power is never an issue. Yeah.
But and the and the interiors are always going to look good.
Although the latest coolest everything.
Yeah. And of course, you know, then you get to the really cool additions,
like the old days when you had like the the the H&H.
Now, the gun, the one that came with shotgun.
So yeah, cool things.
Yeah, Land Rover does a lot of weird addition stuff.
Yeah. So it's like every week is a new addition.
You can't buy anything is not a special addition now because they've realized.
Well, we had a tariff thing where they for one point,
I don't know if it ever actually took place, they were going to limit.
You could only bring in like the first 100,000 vehicles for importation.
You wouldn't get tariffed on as much.
And then after that, they'd tear a few more.
So they're like, we're just sell fewer, more expensive vehicles.
Well, I mean, every thousand is a lot for Land Rover to sell.
That's true.
So what's the ultimate your Toyota guy that's going to become a Rover guy Rover?
I think it depends on what era Toyota guy you are.
Are you a full roach, you know, maximum raisin Toyota?
So I'm a mini guy.
I'm a mini truck guy who's like a full party guy.
And I'm looking to go into Rover.
I'm thinking you're getting a disco one and chopping it up like mine.
Yeah.
You're not necessarily going to an old series truck,
which might seem like the right answer because it's more basic and simple
and raw and small, but those are expensive.
They're more expensive.
You're not going to you're less inclined to fully rat that out.
Yeah.
Discos are in the range.
I agree.
If you're going to go from like that kind of a mini truck to
maybe like a first gen four runner to a Land Rover, I do think you're probably
disco one.
A disco one is going to be a lot lighter and smaller than a D2,
which will make it a little easier to wheel.
You can pick them up pretty cheap.
I didn't buy one for a thousand bucks recently.
If you can find one, you're going to find a roached out one,
which I guess if you're going to be building a Rubicon beater.
Well, after we go through the models, maybe you guys own between you guys,
like probably like 30 rovers.
So we can get to help people out of where to find them and stuff like that.
But eventually they just come to you.
Yes.
But I would also say that Range Rover Classic would be.
Unfortunately, they're not so cheap anymore.
I would agree mechanically, it's the same truck.
Defender, Range Rover Classic and Discovery One are mechanically the same truck.
Yeah. Same, almost the same frame, just different bodies, really.
And it's if you can find it, it in Range Rover Classic for cheap.
Yeah, but it's but you're going to deal.
The hard part is and I guess why you wouldn't go from a Toyota to a 90s
Rover is the roached out rovers that are affordable have a lot of issues
like the windows aren't going to work and who wants a rock crawl.
You can't put windows down on.
So now you've got to figure out which wires do what and you're you're gutting
a truck because you started from a more luxury.
Yeah, it was originally when it was new, it was a more luxury vehicle.
So it has all those things.
You just take the windows and all those things are just going to fail
because by now it's on its fourth owner.
And the first guy took it to the dealer every 5000, 3000 miles or whatever
and spent all the money.
And then the second guy, he didn't care as much.
And then the third owner was there buying it because it was a prestige name plate
and they could get it on the cheap, you know, and by then it's oh, those are
that's that's not good.
But a nice thing if you do, you know, go to the Range Rover Classic or D one,
you will be very familiar with the axles and stuff.
They're built pretty similarly.
Now, if you are if you're an FJ guy, if you're into FJ 40, FJ 60 or something
like that, now you're a serious Rover person.
Yeah, yeah, more of the vintage look.
And you can make them all truck capable, even the small tire trucks,
you look at Jesse and Tim and what they're doing on their Series One trucks.
They're out there just absolutely killing it.
But these are very simple, very crude, old vehicles.
Now, these are 50 year old trucks.
And there's a lot less of them around.
And they're unfortunately they are FJ 40 US.
They're collectibles as well.
So you've got that's the other thing that we we're not really.
It's a premium.
The ones we want to say the premium restoration crowd and the rivet counter,
as we call it, because Rovers use Rovers, use lots of rivets.
So they're like, oh, we got to make sure it's the right kind of rivet.
Now, yeah, that's the Pebble Beach types.
That's not us.
But we're the self-tapper type.
Yeah, we're the self-tapping.
Yeah, the yeah, but yeah, if you're an FJ, FJ 40 is also come with that premium now.
I mean, yeah, absolutely 10 years.
They got really expensive.
Yeah. So maybe they're used to it.
Now, if you're more of a late model, if you're a not necessarily 80 series guy.
Yeah, that's more D2 area, D2, maybe even getting into the LR 34 a little bit,
depending on yeah, what you do, how much you want to do it.
The 80 is still solid axle and can be built into a crawler.
The D2 is solid axle.
It can be built, but is not when you move the LR 3 and 4, that's a.k.a.
Discovery 3, Discovery 4, making that into a crawler.
Well, they're fully independent.
It's just not the right answer.
Can you do it?
So I think the 80 series, I think one of the big appeals to that opposed to, you know,
the 100 series or 200 would be the solid axles on there.
I think people like that.
Is 100 series solid axle?
I don't know.
No, hundreds.
That's IFS.
There was the 105, I think there's 105 series, which is 100 series with a solid front axle.
But I think you only got that in Australia.
The Australians get lots of cool stuff.
The golden goose of Toyota Land Cruiser.
Because it's weird rovers with wider frames and Azuzu diesels, too.
So, you know, OK, so I think if you want a rock crawl, it basically ends there.
The D2, it just gets bigger and bigger, though, as you get.
Yeah.
And if you got a late model, you're an overlander at that point.
I don't know what the new, you know, LX 600 or whatever.
Then you're buying a new Range Rover.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now you're going for a luxury.
We don't have a 100000
We don't care about you as much at that point.
Yeah, you're not listening to this.
Nothing to tell you.
But I think overland wise, I think LR3s are super cheap now.
They are. And they're surprisingly good trucks.
Yeah. And I can still call that one a truck in that it's a body on frame.
And it weighs a million tons.
It weighs a. Oh, God, they're heavy, because it's really a unibody on a frame.
Yeah.
And it's a very boxy vehicle.
The LR3 in particular is pretty basic interior.
Yes, you got all the luxury things and DVD players and things.
If you wanted to order them and you could get the extra bougie leather and
you know, to power everything under the sun and blah, blah.
But they're still filled with mud, though, and they don't care.
They're still fairly truck like in some way.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Have we thoroughly confused all of our Toyota people?
They're probably most of them probably going to go out and buy a Rover now, though.
I mean, I'm sure it was the kind of just equate it to Toyota.
So it makes some sense, but it is a lot of shit going on right now.
Why don't we take a commercial break and then I want to finish up with
finding out where you guys find your vehicles, because you guys find
some ridiculous deals sometimes, some ridiculous vehicle sometimes.
But, you know, you you're not like just surfing Craigslist.
So I'm assuming that we've converted a lot of Toyota people who are like, OK,
obviously we have.
Yeah. So they're now they're thinking, OK, I want it.
Where do I get it?
Yeah. So that's a quick break and then a nail drill.
You know, they're they're big time.
They have sponsors so they can run and had.
Yes, let's have a beer.
All right, we'll be back after this.
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There we go.
So between the two of you, cheese, Don, is that how you pour your beer?
I was trying to get it on the mic.
Got a little rambunctious on that poor.
So between the two of you, I don't have that many rovers.
I think I have three Range Rovers and a D two,
which is nothing compared to you guys.
I'm paring down.
Oh, yeah, you always say years, years resolution.
I just sold one to Pig and Pull, a parts car.
So I just got rid of one.
So what are you guys at?
And I mean, you have to get rid of half of one.
I don't know how many I'm at.
I have to count them.
So, Don, if you go first, I don't know.
At one point, there was like 15, but it's not that money now.
Let's see.
Let's see if I start.
So we got the LR three, get the range over.
Then we've got of course, the D one.
Then we've got the long wheelbase range over classic.
And we've got the two range over classics in the back.
Got the X Mod 109.
Got the D one, the supercharger.
Got a short wheelbase classic and then two D ones.
Are you counting right now?
No, I've lost count.
OK, you just I'm just a piece of paper.
And then I've got the lightweight and then I've got you.
That's a for those that's a military vehicle.
Air portable is designed to be helicopter ported.
Those light weights are so ugly.
They're they're so ugly.
They're cool, though.
And it'll take like a 35 in a tire with no cutting.
That's how I live my entire life.
They're so ugly.
They're just.
It's like since I'm going for I'm bracing.
That's how I that's what I was known as in high school.
So ugly, you're cool.
And then I've got all the parts of a 109
that is completely disassembled.
I think that's about it.
I'm 11 or 12.
11 or 12 with one more may be coming this weekend.
So, well, you know, it's bad when you can't really pin it down.
How many do you think you guys have owned?
Well, I keep selling my Range Rover classics to you guys.
I bought one of them.
So if you, yeah, if you do want to get into a land of the world,
though, it always hit up Donny probably has one that, you know,
his wife is probably begging him to sell to somebody.
As long as I stay behind the house, she doesn't care.
Well, that's that's, I guess, the one difference between Toyota people
and Rover really anybody but Rover people is Rover people seem to collect more rovers.
Yeah, we're all hoarders.
Like you usually get one and then your junk is cool.
That's no 12.
And if it's not hoarding actual vehicles, I tend to hoard parts.
Yeah. Well, I have I have two parts.
I've invested in some parking.
Don has a hundred parts cars.
Yeah, I'm partying down, though.
I'm whittling them down.
So what he thinks is like really is taking all the parts out of the vehicle.
Yeah, selling them on a train to somebody.
But still a couple of space in vehicle form.
That's a that's a plus.
Yes. Yeah, that is true.
And then you get to find it.
If you're like, otherwise, you're like, where did I put that?
Whatever you know, it's I'm looking for a steering box.
It's attached to the frame and the hard part is then you go.
Well, that car still together.
I mean, you could build that.
I don't want to take that one of. Yeah.
So when I bought my first, I'm still a Craigslist guy.
Yeah, I don't have a Facebook account or anything.
But I heard that it's pretty good.
It exists. It is still there.
But there's a lot of competing websites and things now.
Marketplaces has become the king, I think. Yeah.
Yeah. So when I first bought mine, I bought it on Craigslist.
I did buy that range over classic.
On eBay, which was weird.
Your buggy. Your buggy is the eBay one, right?
Yeah. And that one, that was tough because, you know, when I got there,
I was like, wow, this thing is fucked up and it was.
Well, I think that's you saw some of it.
Well, you guys saw some of the fab work on it.
You're like, that's the curse of complete redo buying the turnkey crawler
because Julia's buggy was the same way.
Now, I guess I should wind it back one.
Most of my rover purchases come from Greg.
So Greg is a member of our club. Greg is and he is guilty.
I don't do 100 percent.
I don't think he does anything but surf the for sale.
I don't think he has a job.
And yeah, he just tells us why he's going to work.
And instead, he just goes and hides under a sheet in the corner of the house
with a computer and then lands over for sale ads to people.
He's like on every forum known to man, every Facebook group, whatever.
I don't know how he does this.
Yeah. But I know the buggy we bought, which is a Range Rover based buggy.
And as you buy these things, like they come up and like, OK, well,
that's a cool thing. I'll buy that. And it's good price.
Well, it's usually good price for a reason.
And the amount of headache and work you do to rebuild said buggy or remake it.
You almost would have been better off building your own.
But that's where a lot of my stuff comes from.
When I'm looking for rovers is all type into marketplace or Craigslist.
Just Rover and a lot of stuff like that comes up.
Or in our instance, I also have Greg in the Bay area where I am and
where you are kind of and you guys are Bay area, Jason.
I'm in the Bay area. You are a part time Bay area.
You're getting away. Yeah, I'm splitting time now.
But you know. Yeah.
But obviously a lot of upscale communities.
It's a wealthy area in general.
So there were lots of rovers sold new,
which means there's lots of used rovers out there.
And well, there's two kind of a lot of doubt.
There's like two kind of things you're looking for.
I think one thing is if you just want to get like a nice
use, you know, three to two or something like that.
And then there's like another aspect where maybe where are you going to find
like a built up so that you can go play with right away?
You know, those the built up that requires more specialist.
Yeah, usually that's a forum thing.
So usually that's where the Greg list will call it comes in
because he'll send you the ad of a such and such as over being a Rover
and wants to be a Toyota guy.
Like there's a forum or not forum.
A Facebook group of called heavily modified Land Rovers.
I don't know if I'm a member.
I don't post there.
Certainly I don't Facebook, but, you know, and it value for money.
Buying a built Rover, if you will, is usually actually pretty decent because it's
well, Greg just sent us the latest buggy he found.
Yeah. And you know, still what do they want for that 35 K. Yeah.
And I mean, I don't want that for under no, you can build that.
You know, you couldn't buy the Defender.
It's based off of for under 60 K.
Because it's an AS truck, right? Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's always usually going to save you money
if you buy something that's already done.
Yeah. So if you want to find, but I think the big difference
between Land Rovers and Toyotas are like Land Rovers tend to stay
within the community and not just hit a random.
It's usually not on Craigslist.
The built ones are usually not on Craigslist.
They're usually trading hands between Rover people.
Yeah, people. Because it's a small community and people know each other.
So I think if you want to get into something like that, I think
you have to move is forums and go into the community first, then acquire
the vehicle, like join our club, which would be
in Northern Cal Rovers, Northern California.
Oh, be careful if you search for NCLR.
Yeah, because it's a different club.
Con is a different group club, not a Land Rover club.
You want to go to norcalrovers.org.
But you can go to the other one, too.
So that's the club that we're part of.
But there's a few other ones and there's a lot of forums, you know, like
and that's usually where the defender source or what?
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
There's there's quite a few.
And some are more European based and some are more American based.
Yeah. And it those it's nice, though, to buy one that's halfway built up
because it is usually rovers, Achilles heel is bad maintenance.
And it's usually those trucks tend to have better maintenance
because they're owned by somebody who likes rovers.
So if you buy, I would say if you're if you're planning to build your own truck
and you if that's the way that's how you get what you want,
you're going to build it one way or another, really.
But whether you start with something, you know, and you want to find
just a cheap stock truck, Facebook, you'll find the best place.
Discos, classics and there's LR threes,
Range Rover, you know, L through 22 generation, Range Rover, stuff like that.
They're cheap on there.
And a lot of them are absolute junk.
They're ghetto trash, you know, because it's somebody who's like,
I don't know, should I get the Mercedes or the Range Rover?
You know, well, man, I'm not being fit at all. Wow.
I don't know what that I don't know where that accent came from.
And I noticed that you went straight to a female.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
But once again, that's Don.
He has a discovery with no roof.
And one thing I will say that's nice about the used market
when you talk about like Range Rover.
So when we bought our L three to two, which is a 2012 Range Rover,
which is a really nice way to go for a daily driver overlander
is we bought it from somebody who had bought it new.
And when you buy it from somebody who bought it new,
they paid so much money for that car.
Probably took care of it.
Yeah, they take it to the dealer for a number of years,
and then they take it to a special.
But they get every when you spend that much cash on a car new,
you get the oil changes done on time correctly.
You got enough money to invest in things.
I have a client who has a P 38 and this guy is
he's got to be close to 90 years old.
So I work on yachts, if I want to sound special,
I work on big power boats.
And this client has a 100 percent stock,
always dealer maintained P 38.
And he also owns, you know, Ferraris and his daily drivers.
So you own that. Oh, I won't own it.
No, P 38. And, you know, I don't I don't do P 38.
But it's like a pristine 38.
It's a Range Rover for the Toyota people.
It's like the Range Rover that is like a rented step child.
OK, so step child.
I don't even know what Toyota or that would be.
So the P 38 came after the Range Rover.
T 100 or I don't know.
A Prado Land Cruiser.
So not not the manly Land Cruiser, the weird one.
It's from an era when they put all the luxury and stuff really
started piling it in.
It replaced the Range Rover Classic,
which had been around for decades at that point.
And so an axle, though.
But it's not a side drop, which is double and on both driver side drop front and rear.
It's it's it's unusual.
It doesn't match up with any of the other Rover running throughout the engine.
But but it's your talk in the that was an early 90s.
Yes. And lots of technology.
So it's got it's like it's an electrical nightmare.
So don't buy that one.
You can actually build a decent truck out of them.
But but it's a headache to me.
Yeah, I'm not it's the it's definitely the redheaded step shop.
But anyway, I don't know what I was talking about before.
Was there a point to that?
I forget the point is buy it off of Marketplace, get a D one, join a club.
Oh, OK. Oh, yeah.
He's old and he took care of so that's something you find more than original
and pristine and just immaculate.
You don't find that in 30 year old Toyota's too much.
Normally, you'll be like the fifth or the ninth owner.
Yeah, dude, Lexus people hold on to their vehicles for like that.
Do they know they can actually die because they're usually 80
when they buy their Lexus car they owned.
Well, I also think when it comes to a lot of luxury vehicles out,
you see this less with Rovers, but a lot of the other people like
the cache of owning that Lexus last for about three years.
And then you swap it out because it's just a Toyota.
Yeah, exactly.
So you want to get those, you know, vehicles so you look fancy
and it's relatively new.
But once the new model comes out, it's like, you no longer have that.
So they tend to change hands.
But with Range Rovers and stuff,
they for some reason, people tend to hold on a little longer.
Now, you know, I do a lot of money on the service bill.
Yeah, I can't get rid of it.
I mean, if you're taking it to a dealer and if you're taking it to the dealer,
you're paying a lot of money.
I like 5700 bucks an hour for a Land Rover dealer.
At least I don't know what the going rate is in the Bay.
But yeah, I don't think you're exaggerating.
No, because the independence will charge 250 at a Land Rover specialist.
Easy. And, you know, I go, you know, go to the yacht clubs and things as part of my work.
And I see late model, a lot of late model Rovers life.
Oh, yeah, I think.
Let me just tell you in the in the yachting world, those yacht clubs and their
yacht clubs. So you got the Larry Ellison level yacht club.
And then you got the let's, you know, of course, light level yacht club.
That is true from my experience.
Yeah, very much pretty accurate.
But yeah, so, you know, we're almost out of time here.
But I want to just give them some good tips.
So you think the Facebook Marketplace is probably the best place.
If you're going to just jump into a Rover, they're out there.
There's a lot more out there than you think because you aren't looking.
If you're not a Rover person, you don't realize how many you see every day.
Yeah, if you're in the Bay Area, Northern California area,
which is where a lot of you are, obviously, you know,
listeners all over the country, world.
But, you know, if I go back visit my brother in North Carolina,
I don't see Rovers the way I do around here, but they're just.
Well, the one place to also move your search button.
If you will, search radius is up into the Tahoe area, because it.
Yeah, it is what the people who live in Tahoe wanted them.
So they all have old Range Rover classics that are sitting in the backyard
rotting, and then they throw them on Craigslist for 1500 bucks.
And it's going to take a bunch of work to get it going.
But so are there any things it goes?
Obviously, when we're talking about like built crawlers,
it's like the such a large spectrum of things going on.
It's hard to kind of narrow down with a look for.
But in general, are there things with Rovers that you might want to
specifically look for and use one that maybe is.
Axles, yes.
Rovers, our Achilles heel is weak.
Axles. You'll see stuff advertised and you might see, you know,
marketplace, you'll see discos that are lifted and modded and stuff.
And they're advertised as, you know, it's a great adventure vehicle or whatever.
And, you know, a lot of times you look at it and you're like,
but you didn't mention what differential you had.
Did you put an air locker in that?
Did you put an ash locker in it?
You didn't mention you didn't mention what gearing you did.
You didn't mention, did you upgrade the axles?
Does that cremally shafts in it? What?
Yeah, you know, you're telling me is it's got, you know,
bumpers and a roof rack and a lift and, you know, a 35 inch tire.
I'm like, because there's not a lot of drivetrain stuff.
Give me some details here.
I do think, you know, head gasket issues are a little more prevalent
in some of like the discoveries and stuff.
So it's your era there.
Yeah.
And that, I think really comes down to, you mentioned this earlier,
that basic engine started as a Buick motor in the fifties.
I don't know when Buick originally is the fifties.
And then it became the Rover V8, which is in the rest of the world.
That's the small block Chevy of the rest of the world.
Yeah. They hot rod the hell out.
They put him in everything.
That was the cool, cheap V8 you could get just like a 350 Chevy in the day here.
And but what's nice, they kept that around forever.
And the tooling was pretty worn out by day two era.
And they stroked it and bored it.
And it went from three and a half liters to 4.6 liters in the end.
Yeah. And then TVR stuff.
Yeah, the D2s have more engine issues that in like.
But what's nice is it's still your liner issues, something.
You're getting more emissions requirements.
They're running the engines hotter intentionally and stuff to, you know,
make and stuff like that.
It's still though, just a push rod V8.
So it's just a some, it's basically an American V8.
Yeah, you can put head gaskets in them fairly easy.
Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a lot of work in the engine bay.
If you can work on a Chevy or a Ford V8, you can work on this.
Yeah, they're pretty, pretty straightforward.
You don't even need metric tools.
So yeah, it's fine.
A built truck, a truck that looks built.
The money where money's spent on rovers is axles
because you can't really do anything with engine, transmission,
transfer case and rovers because it's kind of is what it is in a small world.
That's for sure. Yeah.
Like it's not like a Toyota where does it have dual cases
or does it have four sevens in it or hardened outputs and things like that?
That's not a thing that we can do all that stuff.
But you're getting very niche.
You're getting into the really hardcore stuff.
And as a, you're not going to find that on the open market.
That's going to be, you know, Bob is talking about selling his truck
and Bob is, you know, everybody in the country knows Bob.
Sure. And also, you know, you want to look for things
that you don't have to spend the money on.
They already spent it on, which, yeah, axles and armor.
So pretty basic stuff that kind of the same for Toyotas and everything.
When we get into the overlander vehicles,
it's a little different animal.
Don, you're the resident overlander.
What do you have to say?
What? Roof racks.
Oh, yeah. All the stuff on the roof rack did you buy?
That's another thing of roof racks from these cars are really expensive.
And a little tougher to get just like everything with these.
So that is a big thing.
Oh, yeah. I have a GDE edition or do I have a G4, D2?
So we're kind of thinking newer vehicles that they have the air suspension.
I do think it's important to have that like a don't don't buy one
that has any check suspension lights or any kind of bullshit like that.
Because that's if you're going to buy it,
make sure you're buying it super cheap because you're going to spend,
you know, what I would you're going to have a headache to fix.
Regardless of any of this, whether you're buying new, old, whatever,
if you are a hands on person and you can do some of your own work,
you don't have to be able to build a chassis from scratch.
But if you can handle your own maintenance and repairs,
you can connect with the local club because this is very much a good personality.
Yeah. I mean, join the NCOR club.
He's not joking that I joke that my shop, my shop behind my house,
that's the club hangout, you know.
I mean, it hasn't even like Tyler or Jimmy fixed their car at your house.
Jimmy's truck has been on my lift. That's right.
You know, it's just good at Don's.
The Don's address is.
The community really makes a difference
because it is particularly if you want to be more on the rock crawler side.
It's a small community and not to brag.
It's probably mainly in that NCOR club.
Yeah, probably.
There's a large majority of the rock crawling rovers are on the NCOR.
I'd say there aren't guys on the East Coast or whatever, but they are certainly not.
We are if they're on the East Coast.
They've talked to at least know the people from the end.
They probably know Don.
So probably gone to the river.
Yeah, probably worked in Don's shop.
The so that's the key.
If you are the kind of guy that wants something that is easy and has kits
and you could get a shop or a dealer to build it for you,
it's going to cost you an arm and a leg to play in the Rover world
because there just aren't.
There's not a shop on every corner that knows Rover.
Well, a lot of shops will not touch a Rover.
You know, dealers won't work on old stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
So you got to be able to do some work yourself.
You know, there is opportunity there because it's not anything exotic.
No, but it's just a car.
It's foreign. It's foreign.
But there is opportunity there because labor rates are so high,
you will get a lot of people who, let's say, they did buy this Range Rover
brand new 10 years ago.
It's depreciated 90 percent of its value.
And then an issue comes up that needs to be fixed.
It's something that maybe you could fix, but they can't.
So they go and get a quote from the dealer.
And there's huge technical support online.
Yeah. Well, what I'm saying, Doug, but the clubs.
Yeah.
But the point being is that they get a quote from the dealer.
Oh, yeah. And it's basically $10,000.
Yeah. So in the cars, it's something you can fix on your own
relatively easily.
This person can't do it on their own.
So you could pick up a vehicle for dirt cheap.
Sometimes that has a suspension problem, needs new airbags.
Right. Because, yeah, the rates for, you know, labor at a professional shop.
$300 an hour to have someone do, you know,
rotate your tires for, you know, it's ridiculous.
So there's opportunity.
It's a pro and a con because it does give you that opportunity.
So don't buy a new Rover, buy a solid axle one.
Yeah. Be a man.
Yes. Be a man.
What he said. Yes.
So before we go, we do have a nickname for air suspension Rover.
A handbag. Oh, yes.
You coined that. Don't look at me like that.
No, I did call that.
I just haven't I haven't heard that in a little while because I made a lot of
enemies by calling their vehicles handbags, you know, these fashion accessories.
All of those handbags, I mean, you know, I'm driving a handbag right now.
Yeah. It's got 500 horse handbag.
But yeah. Yes.
But so I think that's a I think it's pretty good to introduce the Toyota
people to Rovers convert them.
Yeah, I know it's going up.
You guys got to get in quick because with after a podcast like this,
there's going to be a run a little bit early.
Yes. So what would you sell Rock Rover for?
To the Toyota? I mean, there's no value.
Come on. What's the number?
1000000 dollars.
Well, I will say if you if you are interested and we did a quote unquote,
convert you, you could go listen.
We have podcasts every once in a while.
We put them out on the irregular.
Yes, on the irregular.
So Rovers after dark, you could also look at some of us of the Instagrams and stuff.
Do you have an Instagram, Tyler?
I do, but I'm not on it.
I don't do much Rover stuff on my but Don Don, he's out there.
He's got like he uses his hands and everything.
Yeah, I will say as a closing quote, we were at King of the Hammers
and there was another Land Rover Discovery that ran us down and said, I know you're
Don, right? Don, look at Don.
You don't know who I am.
The rest of us were nobodies.
But yeah, Don, Don was a big deal to this guy.
Took a picture of him with his truck.
Oh, really? Wow.
I only charged him five bucks for the photo.
Did you sign anything?
Oh, no, that's extra.
Let's draw a line here.
That's $25.
Remember, we were at that event important and that guy like signed my shirt
for some weird reason.
That was just confusing.
That was very odd.
I didn't know how to tell him.
No, please don't.
I was just so in shock.
I was like, do you want me to sign your shirt?
I was like, are you so?
Do I know you?
Then he started signing it and that happened.
It was interesting.
But you could find Don at least he'll he's out there.
He'll answer questions.
Yeah. All right.
What's your Instagram?
Just Don Hothel. Oh, really?
Should be Rover Don.
Is it Rover Don's?
I think I did make my yeah.
I should do that.
Are you private?
No, I'm out there.
So yeah, you can look at Don Hopple.
It's all out there.
That's at Don Hopple, D-O-N and H-A-P-P-E-L.
Look at that. He spelled it right.
Yeah.
By the way, we have a rovers after dark Instagram too.
Yeah.
I think Greg put something on there once in a while.
Occasionally, intermittently.
Then there's the we'd like to keep the guessing.
Rover one.
Yeah, there's a and get a Rover and then go to Robocon.
I don't even know what that one is.
MCLR club, something like that.
But either way, thanks for hanging in there with us guys.
We don't all eat great coupon.
No, if you made it all the way to here, then I guess we appreciate you.
Probably three people listening.
Maybe. Hopefully, maybe.
Well, the good news is that it'll double our normal audience.
So that's a good thing.
And any parting words there, Don,
what do they normally say after these things?
They we ask for your final words.
That's what they do.
You have any final words?
And then I'm assuming we'll get some dance music put in by Tyler.
Tyler and Jimmy, Jimmy's in charge of all that.
But no, we got we got stuff.
I I've I have heard this podcast.
I know how to do this.
So, Tyler, you have any final words?
Yeah, was it Toyota suck, right?
Well played. Oh, yeah.
All right, later, guys.
For you. Oh, OK.
I don't know. I I listen, but I always I used to cut out at the end.
I'm a diehard listener.
But OK, all right, later, guys.
About this episode
A Rover-focused takeover turns into a wide-ranging comparison of Land Rovers, Toyotas, and Jeep builds, with plenty of trail talk mixed in. The hosts dig into why solid axles, simple drivetrains, and parts availability matter for crawling, while also explaining how Range Rovers evolved into luxury SUVs and why older Rovers can be tempting used buys. Along the way, they swap stories about Rubicon runs, Moab, King of the Hammers, and the realities of keeping air suspension, lockers, and aging trail rigs alive.
200 TDI
22 RE
32 or 33 inch tire
33s
35 inch tire
37s
400 horse V8
44 inch swampers
accessory market
adrenaline four by four
BMW 335
Ford Bronco
Ford F-150
Ford V8 Sedan
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Jeep Wagoneer
Jeep Wrangler
Land Rover Defender
Land Rover Discovery
Land Rover Range Rover
Land Rover Series
Land Rover Series III
Lexus IS
Lexus RX
Toyota 4Runner
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Toyota FJ 40
Toyota FJ 60
Toyota FJ 62
Toyota FJ Cruiser
Toyota Land Cruiser
Toyota Paseo
Toyota RAV4
Toyota Supra
Toyota T100
Original notes
Welcome to the Rovers After Dark Podcast. Erick, Rover Don, and Country Club Tyler talk about their experiences with Toyota, then quickly move on to some fantastic Rover History. They also try and corilate what rover equals what Toyota to help the Toyota audience understand a little more about rovers. Did it work?
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SnailSquad Monthly GiveawayMassive thanks to this month’s giveaway with Rusoh Fire Extinguishers. We have one of their 2.5-pound extinguishers to give away to a lucky winner. This extinguisher has an 18-year shelf life and is the best fire extinguisher for any off-road vehicle. To learn more, check out Rusoh.com. If you want a chance to win, sign up for the Giveaway Tier on Irate4x4
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Show Music:
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Snail Trail 4x4 Offroad Podcast
Tyler and Jimmy: Off-Road Enthusiasts
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111:13