89: Winter Check-In and the State of the Season: SVR, Judging Reality, and What's Next

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Welcome to the Eskeology Podcast and hello, Mike. How are you?

Hey, what's happening, Clifton?

Oh, it's another fun-filled winter week. I'm done with, I mean, unfortunately,

I don't get to, you know, live in a temperate Arizona, Florida climate.

And so I'm pretty much done with winter already. I'm sure there's plenty to go.

Oh, yeah. Has it been snowing up your way?

We've gotten some, nothing crazy, you know, inch or two here and there, but it's been more the

temperature fluctuations. Like, you know, it was down in single digits. And then right now,

it's in the 20s. Tomorrow, it's supposed to be up in the 50s. We came out single digits,

not too long ago. And then, you know, by Christmas, it's looking like at least the

week of Christmas is going to be in the 60s. But then I'm sure I'll plummet after that again.

So it's just, every time the, every time the fluctuations happen, my body goes, oh, chaos.

It is chaos. Speaking of chaos, car audio and competition and such things.

So the last time we really discussed anything newsworthy as far as that goes was post-Aegyland.

That was months ago now. And of course, all of our summer schedules as usual,

you know, best laid plans and then, oh, time, time is gone. So I guess the next big event

after that would have been SVR, which did you, you were a judge at SVR, right?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Myself and my brother Chris was also judging in the money round for that one.

Okay. So you're both running the money round. All right. And then that, I guess we had,

there was a total of six judges, including you two in the money round.

Yeah. Yeah. We had, I think a really good judging crew, honestly. It was a super busy weekend, you

close to 50 cars or something like that. We did. So it was seems like there was a lot. And then

there was a, I guess I ask Emma, Emma ASQ, was Mecca there too? Yeah. I think. Okay. Yep.

So that was a lot of judges going through cars. It is. It's always, you know, shows like that,

you know, like it, you know, Aggie lands in the past and stuff like that. There's just so much

going on. It's going to be kind of tough for competitors because he, I mean, we did have a,

like a pretty set schedule and we, and we adhered to it pretty well, but things happen. Some people

are a little faster. Some people are a little slower. The competitors have to kind of just

hang out by the car for pretty much the whole time. Yeah. And it's hard to schedule for everybody.

You know, you can kind of like schedule around a couple main things, whether it's the money

round or what have you, but then having, I mean, if, if Mecca has three judges and, you know,

you have potentially install with Emma, you have like, I mean, you know, there's,

there's a lot going on there just for everybody to keep on top of at any given moment.

Oh yeah. It's, it's a lot to juggle. And I applaud the effort that, you know, yourself and, and,

you know, Richard, you know, who was in charge this last time, you know, put forth to make such,

such a great event happen because it's not easy. I mean, that's on so many moving parts

to, to make that happen and get done, you know, at a, at a decent time on Sundays,

so everybody can leave out. For sure. Yeah. It's, well, and there too, you're,

I guess it's, it's a good thing in that the cars are pretty much inconsistent spots. You know,

where to grab them, everything else on the downside and the cars are kind of stuck in there until

everybody's done. You know, if somebody needs to leave earlier, things drag on longer or whatever

else, there's not a whole lot of flexibility in that case to, to take care of it. Yeah. It's,

it's difficult, you know, but, you know, it ran as smooth as it possibly could. You know,

we got done at a, at a really decent time. There was still daylight, you know, so that's, that's

always a, a win, you know, for a show of that size. For sure. And I guess the next years has,

will be kind of advertising as we go along as well with Larry, but,

which this isn't having any connection with that necessarily, but, you know,

Steel Valley is on the schedule again for 2026. I assume fairly similar setup. As far as I know,

the IASCA, MASQ, Emma, and then I guess ECA is going to be there as well on top.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the last couple of years, the money round's kind of empowered by,

you know, ICA or, you know, the CA format, right? But the, you know, this year's going to be a

little bit different in that the money round will be its own entity aside from that. And then ECA

will just be one of the orgs that is also, you know, they're participating alongside the others

like IASCA, Emma, and, you know, Mecca and so on and so forth, all that kind of thing.

Right. Right. Very cool. I don't think Mecca has confirmed to be there yet, but I don't,

I would assume they would be. Yeah. I'm not really part of the planning for that show.

Yeah. I'm not putting you on the spot or anything. I was just like, just thinking out loud that,

yeah, but if they are, that's going to be a lot of judges because you got six with the money

round, potentially four with ECA, potentially two to three with Emma, you know, plus MASQ plus

IASCA. If you're in the upper classes, you got another two to three with, you know, install

and everything. And then three with Mecca, assumably so. I mean, that's a busy week.

It's a full load. Yeah. And it makes it really tough. You know, the judging can have to be

pretty tight and on time to be able to pull this off for if they're going to have the same number

of cars, which I imagine they will. They always kind of fill that place up. So it'll be, it'll be

a challenge for Larry and Richard and whoever else helping out with scheduling.

Yeah. But it looks like, you know, good, good round of judges that'll, you know,

definitely give various, various forms of feedback plus the orgs and everything. I mean,

there's not another, I mean, at this point, there's not another event that really comes

close to it as far as, you know, getting that, that level of feedback and diversity in one event.

It's, uh, it's on a whole other level. Yeah. It's, it's quite ambitious.

But I'll be awesome. So I guess, uh, pre-registration starts, um, uh, Friday, January 16. And, uh,

then the actual event is, what is the event? July, yeah, July 18. So July 17, 18, 19. So

be able to roll in Friday, July 17, around noon, um, till looks like the venue will be open till

nine PM, uh, for a tweak and tune and everything. And then the competition on Saturday and Sunday,

July 18, 19. And I don't, of course it's indoors. I assume was everybody, I guess most everybody

was indoors this year. Oh yeah. Yeah. All the cars fit in there, you know, pretty good. It looked like

maybe had a little room to expand, but not a ton, you know, but, uh, but I think they could

even fit a few more in there if they needed to. But I think it, they had already hit cap and I'm

sure they're going to cap it again for this year. So I imagine, I imagine it'll be much of the same.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's, uh, there's a lot of, you know, even if somebody,

whatever attrition there is from the year before, of course, you know, new people who didn't get in

the year, the year before want to get in. So those spots pretty much fill immediately,

especially at that event. Um, and then I guess just like Aggies as one drops off,

there's already three to back them up. Ready to, ready to come. Yeah. So I guess, uh,

if anybody wants more information as far as that goes, it's, uh, I think the Facebook group,

there's a steel value regional Facebook. If you just look up steel via regional SVR,

that is where kind of seems like most information is going at least that way.

There's one spot to go versus when, whenever it gets posted on everybody's

different Facebook groups and Larry's personal page and everything else, then it gets,

it gets a little confusing. So that's, I'm glad they did that. Having that Facebook group at least

gives one spot for people to see it. So that. Yeah. You only have to update one thing instead of

like several things, you know, right? Speaking of SVR, I guess following, uh, this year,

we go ahead and get all the controversies out where we're talking about it.

There were controversies? Well, you know, people talking about stuff. So, right.

Brandon sponsor also sponsored the show. Like I said, SVR for transparency's sake is, uh,

sponsoring, um, some episodes to, to get the word out on SVR. That's not why we're talking

about SVR right now, but you know, you will hear advertisements here and there just to,

you know, keep the awareness up and keep everybody, uh, rolling forward.

But also Nick Apasella, who runs Resonix, uh, who sponsors this, uh, show as well,

put out a video, um, with some of the, uh, judging information, uh, that was, you know,

provided by the event. Uh, I think Richard in particular, because he's, uh, kind of provided

that information for years with Mecca, you know, prior when he, he would do that. He has with the

Star CIA formats and then continue to provide that data to some of the, you know, or to the

competitors, uh, as a reference point and like anything, I mean, from my perspective, I, I,

when I came into this, I started heavily on the administrative side, you know, in competition

very late nineties, early 2000s, and then got involved doing eschaeology and linked,

kind of linked these big events together and started working on, you know,

administrating them to try to make it more consistent for the competitors to where if you

went to Aduland and SVR and, you know, the hybrid show back in the day and whatever else

that there would be consistency there, because they were all kind of just wild, wild west doing

their own things. And in that process, I was like, maybe with this data, I'll find the solution to

sound quality consistency. We'll find the magic key when this all comes together. And so then,

of course, you know, within, you know, it's been a decade now and, uh, you know, I have

thousands upon thousands of score sheets and data and spreadsheets and everything else and

still have no clue. There is no secret. And I've said this before, I'll say it again,

I would be more worried if there, if judges were ultra consistent with each other,

especially when they're not accustomed to working usually in these money round style formats.

It's not a consistent score sheet. It's not consistent music. It's, you know, for everybody

involved at Aduland, the judges who were most consistent with each other who had the least

amount of deviation were the judges who were accustomed to the score sheet accustomed to

the music and accustomed to working together, you know, right? Yeah. And I think, you know,

that is going to be a fairly consistent thing in a Euro finals. For example, you know, they do

two judges and sometimes a third, they'll have a check judge. If, if there's something that looks,

you know, once they get the score sheets back and something, there's a large amount of diversity

between, you know, the two judges, then they'll bring a third judge to check them on demand.

It's not consistent, but the competitors, when they're done, they only see one score sheet.

There's a one score sheet that is basically the average of the two scores. They see each line

item, but it's essentially the two judges together. Right. Yeah. So they're not even giving you the

data to see what judge did, what it's just, this is your outcome. To me, that's a little bit worrisome

at times. I mean, I want to see that data as a, as a competitor. Yeah. And, and it's kind of filtered

not, not just your, um, like the score that each judge gave you, but kind of also the placement

that they had you overall. So it kind of gives you a little bit of information as to, you know,

kind of where you stack up for each judge in the overalls. As far as what Richard does, yeah.

Yeah. To be clear, I was speaking of like MA Eurofinals, how they, how they kind of clump it

together. But in this case, yeah, there's kind of the scorecard that he provides. And we did the

same thing after Aggieland. Oh yeah. It's not a new thing. Yeah. The data has been out there. It's

just, you know, it's like, if you choose to look at it from a cynical point of view, you can make

the numbers say whatever story you want them to say at the end of the day. There, there's enough.

Oh yeah. There's enough flexibility there to do that. And there was, there was, you know,

there was some discrepancies, you know, between from judge to judge, but honestly, there was,

you know, more than one vehicle breakdown, you know, uh, there was at least one vehicle that I

got in where, you know, I started to judge the vehicle, um, you know, hit play and it's the

three position track and it starts on the, on the left side and there was no sound and then it goes

to center and there's sound, but it's all the way on the right now. So I just hit stop. Got back now.

Boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. And I was like, uh, is this the way you want me to judge the vehicle?

Right. And, um, so if a judge ever asks you that, the answer's always no.

You're right. If the judge, if the judge throws a flag and gets out of your car,

just assume that it's broken and just don't say, yeah, it's ready. Uh, it's broken if he does that.

So they got, you know, he looks at me and it's like, oh, I have it on the wrong preset. I'm like,

okay. So he switches the preset. I get back in and sure enough, the left side is working now.

So I score it and it did all right. But, uh, I know of at least another judge that listened to it

and scored it with the whole thing not working on the left side. Just the way they heard it.

Correct. And, and honestly at, at that, at that, uh, show, you know, they don't have a lot of time

for, you know, letting people fix their stereos and all that kind of thing. So, so I can totally

understand, you know, one way or the other, but, you know, I wanted to see his best foot forward

and maybe it was something fast. If it was something, you know, like an amplifier,

you know, I don't have time for you to switch out an amplifier, you know, but I just wanted to,

to, you know, make sure it was as good as this is going to get. Cause there was,

there was other vehicles that were broken and, you know, they couldn't, they couldn't get it

fixed in time. So, you know, I got out and I asked, you know, is this how you want it?

And they're like, yeah, I'm having a problem with my RCA or something like that. And I was like,

okay, so, you know, we just scored the way it is. But in this case, you know, the gentleman just

switched it to a different preset and, you know, it was much better. But, you know, so that's why

you see some of that crazy discrepancies between judges. And also, you know, there is some people

that, that kind of fiddle with their settings and stuff like that in between judges. I know

it's not a good idea. It's definitely not our best practice, but I definitely know it happened

throughout the weekend for sure. Every time a judge tells you the, it gives you some feedback

and then they get in and change something. And yeah, yeah, I've been guilty of that myself.

So yeah, and a lot of judges didn't really have time to give any feedback at all. So in that case,

they didn't know to change anything. Right. But, you know, they pay a lot of money. And so I always

try to give them, you know, at least one good thing, one bad thing, even if there's not much time,

I mean, there's at least a minute I can give people between cars. So,

but, you know, that unfortunately may cause them to, you know, change something and then it's

different for the next judge. So maybe that's not a best practice that I show like that. But

either way, that's the way I like to do it. And then of course, the middle seat gate, you know,

that happened. So, you know, so there were some, there were some other competitors that

had elected to have us judge vehicles from non-standard seating positions. And so that added

a weird element to the show that I don't think will be part of it going forward because there was,

I think there were some people complaining about that one.

What was your take on that as a judge? I know what my take is, I've said it before,

but I mean, being thrown in that position as a judge and just situationally, spatially,

you know, as far as actually, you know, sitting in judge in the vehicles and then

in terms of results on the score sheet, what was your takeaway on that?

I don't. So I think one car had helped and another car, it really didn't help. So I would say,

don't make last second changes and stuff like that. Just do it the same way you've been doing it

all year, you know? Yeah. But as far as like actually, you know, having the seating position,

I mean, do you think it's actually an advantage as far as the seating position goes?

Not at all. No, because I mean, the guy that won, it was his regular car, you know,

Mark Bruno won again. So that's the second time winning SVR. And, you know, he has just

our standard, you know, two seat layout like, you know, every car and sitting in a driver

position sounded great. Well, and you have compromises either way. So the people who

think that they have to have or that that center seat is a dramatic advantage. I have not seen that

consistently at all. I mean, I think, I think some people might be more wowed by it. Some people

might think that their car is really that much better that way. Some people might, you know,

really be focused on that. But when it comes down to closing your eyes and hitting the score sheet,

like you have compromises on the score sheet regardless. Yeah, I mean, it's all, it's all

scored off like the boundaries of the vehicle and stuff like that. So that doesn't change whether

I'm sitting in the left seat, the middle seat, the back seat, you know, wherever, you know.

So I don't, I don't really think that that moving that really helps anybody.

Oh, agreed. I guess to sum up things as far as my take as far as the, you know,

scoring diversity and stuff. I mean, we've had this, we've had this topic come up before from

other people, not the first time. And I don't, I certainly don't take it personally or have

see as a attack on it. I think it's a, it's a valid criticism, but it's also kind of just the

nature of it. I would still rather have multiple judges who don't all agree versus one judge

declaring the fate at a, you know, major event. And the best car, the cars are so good now at

the top and in the middle. And like, even the worst, the cars are still at the point where like,

I drive at home, you know, it's like, it's like, I mean, you could be 15th and 20th in some of these,

you know, places and they're still so in the best in the country, you know, that's why they're

there. So being able to declaratively say that, you know, this car is so much better than that.

When it comes to score sheet, no. And, you know, that's where, you know, there's,

there's a couple of factors. I mean, no judge in that five, seven, eight, nine minutes tops that

you have to score a car, no judge is being able to give all parts of the score sheet an equal

amount of attention, all standpoints with, with all the variable. I mean, however many tracks are

available, everything else, like there's a whole lot of ways to look at something and a whole lot

of biases, a whole lot in a good way. You know, bias means, you know, what you're talking about.

I don't mean like brand bias or anything like that. I just mean like, if you remove all bias,

I've said before, if you remove bias, you remove competency, you know, right? It's like, you,

you can remove all the bias, but you're going to love with somebody who's incompetent to judge.

And so I would rather someone with a little, you know, maybe not the most perfect hearing

and bias knowing what they want, but I would rather have that be part of the feedback that

I get in with other people who have their biases with their experience with everything.

You know, yeah, because that's what really gives a well rounded car, different body sizes, types,

everybody feels and is affected by different parts of the music a little bit differently.

You know, and that's where what we're going for here is really a bell curve of compromises,

getting to what car does the most, pleases the most people across the board. And some people

that's going, please, some people that's not, I would say the people over time who've brought

forth the criticisms like this. And again, I'm not negating the criticism. It's, it's valid

in its place. But I would say those same people, if they're going to tune, if they tune and most of

them do, they're not going to change their entire tune based on somebody saying that it's not their

favorite car. Yeah, they too have their biases of what they prefer and what they've leaned into

and everything else. And what each judge ends up doing over time is concentrating on a fairly

small portion of the score sheet. If something's out of whack, yeah, they're going to catch it.

But for the most part, they kind of have their median grade that they're giving everything.

And then they're really honing in on a couple points of a couple songs on a portion of the

score sheet that they happen to be really sensitive to that day. And you see most of that fluctuation

happen on those little areas. But if you had, again, this is where knowing your judging team,

working with people, you know, from an event director standpoint, when you have the right

judges working together, and of your ideal selection, and then giving them the tools

to have the right score sheet to do what they need to do to have latitude, and the music that they

know to be able to maximize their efforts. What I've seen over years is that's where the whole

comes together. So that's where, like at the hybrid show back in the day, there was not a

dedicated money round. It was a collection of the different orgs and then their most experienced

judges. And then that was the overall. So in that way, you had judges who were very familiar with

their score sheet, very familiar with their music, very familiar with their way of doing things.

And then, yes, they had their outcome at the org level, but then that was combined, you know,

into the overall quote unquote money round. And that's where over time, I've seen the most

consistent from a results and everybody stayed on the same page standpoint. I mean, I think that

one year actually that you won it was one of our most consistent outcomes as far as judging

goers goes and score sheets. Yeah, it was, it's definitely the prototype for how a lot of money

rounds are done these days. Even though they do it as a money round, that style is still,

you know, I think the most fair way to come up with a complete evaluation, you know, for a car.

And again, even if not everybody has to necessarily agree, it's more getting all those kind of look

at as each dimension of the score sheet coming together. And then, you know, unfortunately,

I don't really have a good way to show that other than other than just seeing how it goes over,

you know, over time and knowing that that's kind of the way it works. And maybe we get

to the point where we were able to kind of prove that in the math better on a more micro level.

But, you know, that that's where I would want to be seeing more a average and a median of

everybody's results in each area and then see how I'm trending above or below everybody else

to know kind of where my strengths are and where my weaknesses are, and then know if I'm okay with

leaving that or if I need to work on that, you know. Yeah, and how you did with each judge,

I mean, gives you some context, you know, if you know what that judge is kind of focusing on and

what they expect to hear and stuff like that, that gives you some context as to what you need

to work on, honestly. And it's at the end of the day, it's kind of some of it is any given Sunday,

some of it is, we're all came together right time, right place. If it wasn't that, then again,

as we've discussed before, it's kind of then it's SPL. And then everybody kind of knows what they

know where they stand before they show up. And the gamble is kind of gone. As it sits now, people

are a lot of people have a shot. Right. And, and we've seen that the people who

don't take wild swings that don't get, oh man, I didn't win this cup this year. So I'm tearing

the whole thing apart, like the people who iterate versus starting from scratch every time,

really come out ahead. I mean, that's where you're guys like Mark Bruno, your Natanz,

your Jeffrey Haldes, your, you know, those, those people, they're iterating, they're not

reinventing the wheel every time. Yeah. Cause if, if they didn't get the top spot,

it's only by maybe like a point or something like that. Or much less. Yeah. And so like,

you just kind of focus on like, and sometimes it all looks like good stuff, but you know,

maybe you lost a point and like wit or something like that, you know. So you have to kind of look

at it. Where can you add a little bit, but not take away also on the score sheet, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think from the event director standpoint and everybody who's involved in,

especially the, these bigger events and stuff, every single show, there's an enormous amount

of effort that goes into trying to continuously improve this, trying to be more transparent,

trying to give more information to the competitors, trying to make that process smoother, trying to

make it more consistent. You know, the effort is definitely going in and trying to make it more

consistent, but you're also bringing together a whole bunch of people from all over the country

who no matter what aren't, we're not doing this. This isn't NASCAR. We're not doing this every week

for a season, you know? Right, right. We're doing this two or three times a year, basically. You

don't have that real ability to get that to a point where it's at whatever that level would be,

you know, and knowing how to get there. Like there's just not, there's not enough opportunities there

to, to do that. So we're doing obviously the best that can be done with the tools available.

And I don't think anybody's trying to make something worse or unfair or

No, no, everybody wants to do the best that they can do. Yeah. I mean, the, the judging crew we had,

you know, we had Harry Kimura, Fred Lynch, my brother Chris and myself. We had Scott Welch,

Mick Wallace. So I mean, all of these are finals judges for one organization or another. So well,

well practiced, you know, judges each in different organizations and have a different,

you know, viewpoint, you know, for sure, which is why you get, you know,

slightly different results, even on the same car. Right. Moving off from SVR, I guess the,

the primary events after that, at least that you were involved would, would be like the ECA.

Yeah, I did. Yeah, all three of the CA, you know, regional finals. So, you know, the ECA

finals we did in West Virginia and it was a, we had a really good time. You know, the weather was

super cooperative. It wasn't, it wasn't real hot. We did it at the Quaker Steak and Lube near

Charleston, West Virginia. And it was, it was a really great show. The hotel, the host hotel was

right next door to the, to the restaurant. So you just walk across the parking lot and you're

at the show. And so it was nice. Yeah, it was, it was amazing actually. And, you know, we had a

pretty great participation, you know, for a second, second file. So it's a little bit less than the,

than the previous year, but, you know, I think competition in general has been

slightly down this year, but we had, you know, good participation and, you know, same,

same four judges that we had had the previous year. So we had, you know, Fred from California and

Nick Adams, Cassie and myself for the East Coast representing. And it was a, it was a great show.

You know, and, and what you were saying is, you know, there was at least a car or two that I had

listened to at that, at that contest that sounded better than it did at SVR. And the competitor

told me that they had changed nothing at all. So I have no idea why it sounded different,

whether it's myself or, you know, just the temperature was lower. I don't really know,

you know, why, but there was more than one car that I thought sounded

definitely better at ECA finals that it did at SVR.

And that's so tough as a judge, especially people who do multiple events that want the

feedback and everything. And it's like, man, you yourself as a, as a tuner or whatever, I mean,

from what you thought you were at from morning to evening can change. Like, and it's you and your

car. Like, yeah, yeah. I mean, and, and some of it is, you know, some of it equipment, you know,

sounds a little bit different in temperatures or, you know, what, what have you, some of it is our

hearing mechanism changes as, as it's hotter or colder or higher pressure, barometric pressure

or what have you. So it's, it's kind of a moving target. And, and I wish that it was simpler, you

know, where you could just sort of set it and forget it, but not that I've seen.

Yeah. In any, in any of this, when it comes to game day, the judges are essentially the athletes

and your car kind of is what it is in that, in that situation. But just like if you're a

physical athlete of some sort, whether you're running or whatever, your performance,

not only you versus the other people, but your, you versus yourself is going to vary based on

your sleep patterns, your fueling, your time of day, all those things. And it's really no different

for judges and their hearing and everything. It's again, that especially at some of these bigger

events where you're doing 20 plus cars a day, I don't really have a problem with, you know,

I don't really see as much of an issue of being able to go through and do those cars to me.

Having lots of cars and being able to go back to back to back to back is actually a lot of ways,

at least personally, and I see it with judges too, more consistent because you're really able to,

I know we're not supposed to compare car to car, but you still kind of end up due. So you,

you're very dialed in on your scoring. Yeah, because I mean, you know, some cars got to be

like a 12 in tonality and some of them's going to be, you know, like a 17. So I mean, yeah, I mean,

wherever you set that first car, everything else is based on that. Yeah, it's going to,

it's going to fluctuate around, but order is going to come into some of that temperatures,

fueling, all that stuff is, but that's where again, the multiple judges and everything and

having it done consistent in the patterns that we try to do and everything is still the, you know,

best car comes to the top, you know, even, even in those cases, you're not going to be able to

give that perfect, I don't think any judge anywhere on earth is going to be able to give

that perfect feedback of, Oh, well, you changed 4k by 2 dB from the last time I heard it.

Yeah, it's, I don't think, I mean, I've met some people that can maybe hear that good,

you know, that can remember things from two months ago or something, but I know that I can't.

Yeah, and I don't think that makes, I don't think that makes you a better or worse judge. It's,

I personally, I don't think that's what we need to be looking for, you know, when it comes to judges

to do that. And that's why we have equipment, but even we all know that if you are using a

single micro RTA and you move it a little bit, you could have very different measurements from

one day to the next or whatever. So that comes with the seating, it comes into what

else is in the car? I mean, there's so many variables and that's again, part of what kind of

makes it interesting in what we do. I think if you took out all those variables, it would be

less fun. But if you're, you know, again, if you're looking for machine consistency outcome

based on, you know, data alone, everything else, it's just not going to happen. But anyway,

ECA, do you know about how many cars were at ECA? I'd have to look it back up because

that's a few months ago, but it was, it was 20 something, maybe, and maybe I think it was like

28 or something like that. But I'm not 100% sure how to go back and look it up, honestly.

In fact, I can probably last 24. Yeah, I'm sure you can find it quicker. Yeah.

Because Richard always sends out the results stuff. Right. But it was a, it was a great show.

And then I guess after that was the MCA finals in Texas. Yeah, yeah, we just kind of worked our way

across the U.S. from east to west. So then we did the MCA finals Aggie Light over at Pates Place.

And that was a great, great show for inaugural MCA finals. It was not super duper hot, but it was

hot enough to where we were running the cars with the AC because we, you know, it was done outside.

We didn't have access to the, to the install bay for this one. So, and I'd like to say that people

that didn't have working air conditioning, you know, got the highest chance of winning.

You know, I'm as fair as I can be, but you know, when it's 100 degrees in there, it gets hard.

It affects you, man. Yeah, it's like, I need out of here. Yeah. I wish it didn't, but it does.

The town won the ECA finals, right? Yeah, he got the cup. Yeah. Yeah. And then

Jeffrey Hald won the MCA finals. Yep. And then, uh, so was WCA, was that two days this year?

Was it one day? It was a single day. Yeah. Okay. All right. And then who, was it Bruno,

who won the Western? Was it? Yeah, I think it's Mark. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think they were really

close though, like with it. They were. It was, it is always super close between those two guys,

you know? Yeah. Yeah. They both have excellent sounding vehicles. Yeah. It's pretty cool to see

that kind of, uh, especially in close proximity like that, having two cars who are clearly

some of the best in the world or best in the US at least. Yeah. You know, it's, it's pretty cool to

see that kind of rivalry, that close, that consistent. Yeah. It's, uh, they really have

like a really cool culture on the West coast, great camaraderie, you know, and I think they have

that, you know, in other places, but it seems to be really close there by really ambiable and

friendly with each other. It feels like, uh, almost like one of those dime I get together or

something like that, you know, it feels kind of less pressured even though it is sort of a finals,

you know, but I don't know other places that just seems, you know, more competitive and less,

you know, friendly, but the California, it was, uh, it was really cool. I'll always enjoy going

over there and judging at those shows, you know, that I get over there about two or three times a

year, uh, judging, you know, different stuff like Brian's, um, oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The one at Brian's

shop and then, and then, uh, the WCA finals have been over there for a couple of times now.

And, uh, it's always a good time. But yeah, the, uh, it was a late one. The WCA finals,

we did it all on one day, but it, it made it kind of a long day. Okay. But we got through it.

The weather, the weather is usually good for that. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't hot at all. So

uh, luckily, you know, it's kind of starting to be moving into fall as it was in September.

And, uh, it was pretty nice. Last, you know, like the last show for Scott's place up there.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause he's moving. Yeah. And I guess you had, you had the same four judges,

West and East on that one, right? Yeah. Yeah. So same, uh, same crew for that one.

We had, uh, different judge, um, for the MCA finals, we were using, uh, Mike Leal.

And we didn't have Cassie either. Right. Cause your plane got canceled or something.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that was, it was the plan, but it just didn't really.

So we had, yeah, we actually had three judges there cause, uh, Fred, Fred couldn't make it

either. So it was, uh, you and, uh, Richard and Mike Leal, which Mike Leal did a fantastic job,

as far as. Oh yeah. He's been practicing. He's, he's really good. Um, his, his scores and placements

were right in line with everyone else. So, so that worked out really well.

Yeah. Cause I think actually, as far as placements go, him and Richard agreed all the way down the

line. Um, but it was all still, it wasn't like it was a, uh, dramatic difference between them.

So yeah, it was cool to see that cause I mean, I think something that, uh, you know, with the,

and I'm not here to, you know, defend or oppose or either way, but, um, you know, with the judges who

have been coming up with the, you know, star CA format. Um, yeah. Most of the judges have come

up through the star CA format are cultivated new judging, you know, it's not taking away from

what's out there. It's not repurposing anything. It's, uh, adding to the available judging pool.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not trying to steal anyone's judges or anything like that. Uh, we want, uh,

people that are, that are passionate about it and have, have some skills listening and stuff like

that. We do, uh, judges trainings for, for mostly region, uh, once a year and then, you know, the

people that express interest and, uh, you know, have some talent with it. We'll, we'll have them

kind of work along with another judge in a multi, multi point event. Uh, so all of the weight doesn't

fall onto their shoulders for the first time judging. And so that gives them, you know, some

confidence, uh, to, to score, you know, and look at compare contrast, you know, with the other judge

and, you know, if they have someone to lean on, if they have questions and stuff like that. So

it's kind of an easier way to develop judges without just throwing them into fire, you know.

Right. And, and, and in all these cases, uh, these were all multi organ events. So, um,

I know MCA, we had MESQ, we had ISCA, we had Emma, it was a, uh, actually the MCA, uh, event was

ISCA state finals as well. Um, and then I'm not sure I assume ECA had, uh, what do you see I have

as far as, yeah, I had ISCA and, um, Emma and I can't remember if I had mask. I gotta look that up.

I should be more prepared. No, it's, it's not, uh, it's not a, not, not a test. Um, but I just,

I just run it out there. But yes, all these are, you know, not only, you know, focused on that,

but also, you know, cultivating everybody along with it. You know, so I think we did have mask

because Joe was judging. So yeah, I was going to say you have, you pretty much have a judge

there right go. So, uh, so we had, you know, pretty much all of them represented again,

like the previous year. And we, we always tried to be, you know, inclusive and it gives a chance

for everybody to get, um, kind of those last, last minute points, you know, to, to qualify for

finals if, if they weren't already qualified. Um, and, and all of the judges that we were using

for the other organizations were finals judges, uh, that ended up, you know, judging down in

Birmingham. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Birmingham, I guess that was then your next stop. Um, I,

um, I don't remember where I was, but I was not there. Yeah, I didn't see you there. No, I was

not there. Um, um, I assume it looked like they actually, they pulled off the, having like the

car show included this year, like they had talked about last year, but kind of fell through, but

it was actually cool too. They had some really neat cars there. Yeah. They had like a car show

going and then it looked like I asked, uh, had like the listening room again, like they had.

Yeah. Yeah. They had some better signage and, and, you know, posted at times and when it was

available for people to listen to. And, uh, I got a chance to go listen to it this year. So that

was really cool. Yeah. They did a pretty good job. You know, I thought it was going to be a

they, they did a great job filling up the venue and, um, I think everybody had a really good

time that I could see, you know, and they had, I asked, I had a Troy, um, taking photos of everyone's

cars, uh, that was entered. So that was really cool. You know, he, they had posted out all the

photos that he had taken and that was a, that was a really neat surprise. I didn't expect that.

That's cool. And what was your, were you, were you judging at all, or were you, uh, displaying

or what were, what were? Yeah. So a little bit, you know, I don't like to just make it easy on

myself. So why start now? So yeah, we had, you know, bought some booth space for sound factory and then,

um, I had entered my car into, uh, two of the organization's finals and then I was also judging

for MASQ for the season opener. So yeah, I did a little bit of everything.

Nice. And I guess everything seemed to, I mean, I didn't really hear a bunch of hustle and bustle

afterwards. I guess everything pretty much went okay. Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, the, you know,

the event venue was a little bit more expensive this year. I think there were some kind of surprise

charges and stuff like that, that the venue had had added on that was not,

not really required to previous years. And so I, I think that made the overall event, uh,

a tad bit more expensive for each one of the, the organizations that was involved. So, you know,

that was, that was really kind of the only like downside to it. But I think, I think otherwise,

I think they kind of did a better job on all the things that we had talked about, you know,

after finals last year, I think they really made some improvements to the event and it went off

really well. I mean, judging was done in a pretty timely manner when you were out of there at a

decent time on Sunday. So it was done really well. So I guess, uh, that brings us to, uh,

our final topic, which would be finals next year in 2026, uh, which was fairly recently announced.

Yeah. And that was, uh, at least I saw it announced from MASQ, but, uh, it's going to be, let's see

here. Yeah, it's going to be a joint venture, of course, you know, like, like all final,

all finals tend to be now. It's tough. It's tough for, it's tough for everybody just to

kind of figure out their own thing. Cause, uh, I mean, even seeing that with star CA or ICA,

MCA, WCA, whatever, like, uh, people want that, but then, uh, when it comes to, you know, travel,

like the inter fees and everything else is one thing, but just getting there and getting hotel

and everything else, like it's, it's expensive to do a lot of traveling over and over and over

again for everything. And you want to do it and you feel pressured to do it to a certain degree,

I think, but then it becomes, you know, this is a hobby for everybody involved. And even if, even

if this is their full-time job, it still comes out of hobby funds, you know, it's not like

in our case where we're both in the industry, like, you know, it's not like, uh, it's not like

you as the owner of your shop are looking forward to spending money to

really not a return on investment there, but, uh, exactly. It's a passion project. Yeah,

we do it because we love it. Right. But yeah, this year, you know, we're going to be,

you know, in Conway, Arkansas, September 26th is 27th. So that'll be kind of a new place for us.

It'll be joint, I mean, everybody's been invited, but right now the confirmed ones,

there's going to be MASQ, MAUSA, and then, uh, the ICA, which is kind of the oversight committee

for, for all the CAs. So, you know, I'm sure there's some confusion, you know, that, uh,

it goes along with that. And, uh, and I understand, but, you know, everybody that watches

college football, you know, each, each region, you know, everybody has their own region. So

like here, it's like the SEC, you know, they got the big 10 and, and, you know, all these other

conferences. So, you know, like ECA is one conference, MCA is another conference and,

and WCA is another. So, you know, you can win your conference and be the champion, you know,

like an SEC champion or whatever. But, you know, the ICA finals that we've been working towards

for the last few years is kind of like that NCAA championship. Yeah. Well, and I think it's a,

it's more of a bottom up thought process versus top down. If you remember, and I was just trying to

look up the, uh, the rule book from back in the day, I'm not sure if the 17 had it, but back,

back in the day, I asked, uh, you know, had everybody to fight up by regions, like what

you're saying. Yeah. So each region was like numbered. And then, uh, those regions kind of

had their own finals, everything else. And then you obviously had your country finals after that.

And that's where like your three X events that were regional events and those kinds of things were

actually meant something back then more because that was an actual, uh, similar to,

I mean, Mecca had the state finals. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, some states were easier than others.

Right. Right. Some states are more serious than others. But, you know, it was still a chance for

each region for the people because not everybody's going to be able to go across the country, you

know, especially when you're in the bar, you know, and I would say kind of the way it is

right now as far as kind of where things are lining up, you know, ECA is more your Ohio,

West Virginia, MCA is more Texas, Oklahoma, um, Arkansas, um, WCA is obviously more,

you know, California right now. You know, they're more kind of hyper focused on those, uh,

on those areas. There was zones. I'm sorry. I just saw it. So like zone one was Tennessee,

Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, zone two was Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana,

Michigan, West Virginia, zone three, and so on. Um, so that's how I asked it way back. Um, and

zone 11 was Hawaii. So sorry guys. Wow. Even Canada was on there. Zone 14 was British Columbia.

Anyway, so yeah, I mean, I think, you know, having it this way where it's more, and it

again, not to compare and contrast to a certain degree without saying one's better or not. But,

you know, you kind of have to have those local events that might draw eight, nine, 10 people,

but, you know, consistent enough to get people out who aren't ready to go across the country

because they don't know where they line up. They don't know what it is. You know,

they don't know anything about it. So you kind of have those more of a get together style attitude

about it for those local things and then have the regional finals where people kind of get

together and see where they're stuck up there. And then you might have somebody, you know, again,

one or two people gained in this is a big number. Yeah. So, you know, if you're able to pull those

regionals together and then say, Hey, now you can go up against, you know, everybody else. And

there's a, there's consistency. There's a lineage. It's not just a different event, but we're calling

it finals. You know, there's a, there's a path to it. So correct. That's important.

Yeah. And nobody gets, you know, just like an automatic invite. So the only people that get it

like an automatic invite is basically the people that won the cups. You know what I mean? So the

three, the three regions, those cup winners are already invited. You know, beyond that, you know,

it's basically people that won their regional finals. And we're still trying to figure out

what the cutoff is going to be as far as number of cars. And then, you know, are we looking at

like the top three per class or top two per class for each region? And how many cars does that look

like for, for ICA? But that's kind of what it's going to, that's kind of what it's going to be.

So you got to do really well in your original finals to even get to the ICA finals. So it's

not just like you pay and show up and it's another contest. There's some qualifications

that have to be met. Right. All that is easier said than done. Obviously, there's going to be,

you know, a lot to, to figure out along the way for, for everybody, but. Oh yeah. I mean,

it's our first time doing it. So yeah. You know, and that's the, if everything goes perfect,

kind of a plan, you know, unfortunately, the reality is not, you know, not the top three from

every single class from every regional would be even willing to drive that far or, you know,

or what, what have you. So, so I mean, that's the idea, but we'll see how it goes and who's

available and, you know, so on, so forth. So yeah, but I think too, having, you know,

having the track record now of having consistent judging, you know, throughout having consistency

of the score sheet, having consistency of the music used, you know, and having the variables,

all the music, you know, I think a lot of people, at least internationally, the way I've seen,

you know, they, they appreciate having the music selection and that stuff that is maybe

sometimes more tolerable to listen to. But I mean. Hey, I'm, I'm excited for it. You know,

I think it's going to be a, it's, you know, it's the first for us and I think it's going to be a

great, a great show. And with each of those, I mean, I think the, the good part is again, it,

it potentially raises all boats because as you have more of those regional local events working

together, you have more potential for the other orgs to be involved because there's obviously

a event promoter involved there, which is what the orgs without somebody promoting the events are

a nothing burger. It's just, okay, you know, okay, congratulations. You have rolls of score

sheet and some music, but if nobody's putting on the events, who cares? It's not really. And,

and if your only event then is finals, like what makes that what, you know, it's not very

prestigious. It's just a show, you know, right. You have far more going on at an event like SVR

versus finals now, you know, as far as that goes. Yeah. So yeah, cause there's another

layer on top of the orgs. Right. And say, you know, something kind of point all that together.

So as it is right now, it's kind of, and again, I'm not here to disparage it. It's just, I've said

this over and over again to a certain degree, but it's still like, you know, finals is the

different orgs coming together without much cohesion, playing down a three X event, essentially,

you know, right? Yes, it's finals, but it's like, there's pretty much everybody who

competes ends up being there to a certain degree who's going to be there. It's not like, we might

say there's a barrier, but there's not a huge barrier for people to come because at the end

of the day, they got to fill spots. Like there's not enough people doing this in the world to,

to block people out, you know. Yeah. The barrier is the cost and the travel, you know,

right? It's kind of a self selected. Yeah. Anyway, you were saying something before

and I cut you off. I'm sorry. Oh, I was, I was about to say, I mean, with the, the ICA files,

you know, Emma and, and MASQ will also be there. But as I understand it, Emma will have

probably new music for this, for this season. Is that correct?

I believe so. Because I know it's usually the last, yeah, the last, the last one was 2024,

I think. So yeah, it should, should be new music. This one, I hope. Right.

So I guess they do that. Is that in a springtime when they said all that?

So yeah, the, actually the Emma Eurofiles is the same weekend as Aguilan 26. So that, that weekend

will be when they, or that we clean up to that weekend will be when they introduce the music

and train the judges on the music for the coming two years. And then they'll use the old music

for that finals because really, so the 20, the Eurofinals that are in 2026, the weekend of Aguilan

are actually the 2025 finals. Oh, okay. So the, the finals is done on the prior music,

but then they train for the new music going into the new year. So it's, it's kind of like

back when I ask a finals was during spring break. Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah. So it was kind

of like the finals for the previous year. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, but, but that's March 28,

29th, I think. Yes. Yes. Something like that. Yeah. March. Yes. March 28, 29. So yeah, and I'm not sure.

It's, it's always tough that right that time of year, which ends up being like the only time that

we can all do it and it's decent weather, but also Easter is right around in our every year. And then

Eurofinals is right around then. And it's just, uh, yeah. And more and more people are going to

Eurofinals now. So that's one more thing to plan around, but it should be good, you know,

should be good as far as that goes. But, uh, but yeah, so by finals though, yeah, there'll definitely

be new music. Everything goes as it usually does. And I think the only time that the music dragged

was when we had COVID because they couldn't get to the recording studio and all that. But yeah,

we'll see what this year, you know, what this, uh, music release brings or doesn't bring. It's

always something. Yeah. And I don't know if I ask is going to make any changes there or not.

Usually that doesn't come until close to spring by the time we kind of get that information. So,

yeah, I'll have to, I'll have to talk to Travis and see what's, what's new for the year. Of course,

they release all that stuff. So everybody finds out about the same time. And then, uh, I assume

MSQ will be pretty close because they kind of made more of those swings last year when we talked

to them at the beginning of this year or so. And they don't seem to like taking big swings at it,

which I think is smart, but. Yes. You know, just like competitors, small incremental changes,

you know, just, just like, uh, you know, uh, the ICA format, really one of the only things

we're changing is selected to seat score sheet for it to align like the single seat score sheets

you know, where it has the definitions, uh, because the, the two seats or she didn't really

get that treatment coming into this year. So, so Richard's, you know, been hard at work at,

at making those two kind of line up and, and look very similar.

I got you. Cool. Yeah. And I think, I think the music is pretty much staying how it is as far as

let's start. Yeah. We haven't, we haven't, we haven't really discussed music, which means

it's probably saying exactly. Yeah. If anything, dropping some stuff, you know,

yeah, yeah. Cause it's, it's a lot of work to take it. I mean, there's a lot of information there.

So it's good. It's just, it's a lot of work to add anything. It is. I mean, cause anytime they

want anyone, so if any judges are like, Hey, I want to add such and such, you're like, okay,

you have to write, you have to be responsible for getting the notes for that, you know,

right? Cause every, every song has to have, uh, track notes, you know, why, why are you using this

track, what you're listening for and stuff like that. So, so that, uh, but, you know, we have a,

a pretty large library already and I think most people can find something in there they like

judging with. Um, I will say on the note of Aggie land, um, I've done things fairly low pressure

this year as far as, uh, I kind of, you know, opened up, uh, invite, you know, private invite

preregistration, um, based on kind of the, the plan that I set forth, uh, uh, after this years.

And so it's been kind of in stages, you know, based on prior engagement, everything else.

So, uh, registration hasn't really, doesn't really officially open up to about the same

time as SVR. So, um, like mid January. So, but, uh, as far as available slots, we're down to single

digits now if I go to full cap. So Aggie land is essentially full. You know, we'll just say

it's full now. If, uh, so if somebody hasn't either doesn't know for sure if they did,

because a lot of times it's such a routine now, people kind of see an invoice come across for

whatever and they just pay it and be done. And then they're like, am I registered? I'm like,

yep, yep. Here it is. Yeah. You did it at a 24, 204 a.m. on the 17th.

So, um, but yeah, so I do have it set up to kind of, you know, try to get everybody on

schedule as far as making sure everybody's committed, everything else, because obviously

any of those changes get exponentially more difficult as we go forward. And once the,

you know, schedule set and everything else, like all that is so fine tuned that changes

are the enemy. So there's a, a discount essentially to be pre-registered and committed

and paid up by mid January. So again, check your email boxes for eskeology. And if you,

if you don't have an invite, you think you should have an invite, you think you did or did not

register, just get a hold of me and I will let you know where things stand. So there's,

there's definitely opportunity to still get in, but it's also essentially just consider

the books closed as far as that goes. There's probably not going to be any open registration

slots available. I'm looking forward to that show. So yeah, it's always a great time.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, the more that I've committed to the format and everything or doing

it the way we talked about and everything else, I mean, I think I'm really looking forward to it.

I think it's going to be really smooth. So should, should go good. That's not, you know,

I'm not making a sales pitch for it here. I'm just saying, uh, just making sure people are aware

of what's going on. Cause that way they, they don't go, well, I didn't know what was going on.

Yeah. It's like, well, maybe you didn't, but it does, it seems to not matter how much you say

something people are still going to be like, well, I didn't know anything about that.

It's like, you can send the letters in the mail and they'll still be like, what?

I had no idea. So I've tried to reach out to everybody, you know, who I know would be there,

who isn't, you know, signed up or at least, you know, and some people are, you know,

with the changes with not having, you know, all the orgs involved, everything else. I

understand that's, you know, a commitment for people who use that opportunity to, you know,

get points for finals and everything else on the plus side for most of the people who are at

least it seems like the people who are at Aguiland are either, you know, local to Texas or

West coast. And either one of those cases, if you're in California, you have ample opportunity

to get points for finals, um, because there's, you know, plenty of events there. And if you're

Texas, there's ample opportunity to get ready for finals. So I don't, you know, if, if anything,

having all the orgs there, kind of the attraction of local events. So I don't think that the orgs

are going to suffer, you know, from that, from that standpoint, it's certainly not the goal.

The goal is to have the best event, you know, possible. And, you know, we'll see. It's always

kind of an experiment. We'll see how it goes this year. But, um, like I said, pretty much got full

house as it is. Um, you know, I'm satisfied there. We've got judges all lined up, got everything

else ready to go. Yeah. So it's just going to be finalizing, you know, some of the other stuff.

And the judges are going to be very, uh, we're not going to be using anything existing. There's no

existing format or score sheets or anything we're using. The judges are going to have a

hundred percent participation in, in the music selection and in what they use for themselves.

And, uh, the score sheet, all of that. So that way everybody is able to do exactly what they

need, do the best job possible. Cool. So I think it's going to be fun. It's going to be pretty

unique. Yeah. See how it works. Take a swing and keep on, keep on swinging. But I think, I think

it's, it's pretty much hits, you know, 80% of what everybody said they wanted after, uh,

80 lines this past year. So. Oh yeah. You had the, uh, the survey exit survey. Yeah. Yeah. So

yeah, we'll see how it goes. But I think it's going to be fun anyway. Uh, so I guess we'll see, uh,

we'll see how things, uh, pan out, what changes and, uh, we'll go from there.

Sounds pretty good. Anything else on your mind other than, uh, getting through the holidays?

No, I mean, we got, uh, stuff coming up, you know, right after the holidays, we've got that

Florida home audio show that Angie's doing. Oh yeah. Yeah. Are you, uh, you're doing

the booth there and stuff again? Yeah. Yeah. Me and Chris will be there again.

We had such a good time last year. It was, uh, you know, from, you know, I don't know that we

made a lot of sales out of it, but it was such a good time. Uh, I really want to return. So

we made a commitment to come back and, you know, we're going to have a great time again.

That's awesome. Yeah. It's, uh, uh, let's see here, February 20 to 22.

It's the Florida, Florida international audio expo. Yeah. Um, and it's going to be in Tampa

again, same location and it looks like it's going to be I ask it with the money around.

And I think, uh, get with Travis or Angie on that as far as registration and all that goes.

Yeah. Yeah. I think Travis, uh, Angie or even Keith, you know, has, has some,

yeah, has some input there. So if, uh, if they're not full, I would definitely,

you know, reach out to them. So if you can get,

yeah, because it's definitely a sponsor or so. Yeah. But, you know, it's, I mean,

how many opportunities do you get to go listen to some super high end audio here?

Well, and last year, I mean, everybody, everybody proved me wrong. And in that,

in that regard, I don't know if we really followed up on both of our schedules,

got crazy after that point, but there was, there was a ton of people demoing.

Oh, it was incredible, man. I, I, you know, I'd had no idea to what to expect, you know, and,

but they, you know, I got to give Angie and her crew, you know, a lot of credit because

they did a great job at sending everyone out to the cars because it was like nonstop demos.

It was really a lot of fun. You know, there's one of the more fun shows that I've gone to.

I didn't compete at all. I was just there on behalf of the sound factory and, and sound quality for

car audio, you know, trying to promote that. But, um, we did so many demos. It just ended up being

one of my favorite shows in that aspect. You know, we had to, we had to switch around people

because, you know, we had a booth inside that we had to have person. So we had Brian come down with

us, Brian Lowry, our, one of our sales guys. And then me and Chris, you know, had our vehicles

there. So we would kind of do like round Robin to give somebody a break to go, go listen to some

of the listening rooms and stuff like that. Cause we, you know, neither, none of us had,

you know, been to one of those types of shows and we were wanting to go check out the cool gear

and listen to some high-end speakers and stuff. It was a lot of fun.

Yeah. No, that's, that's awesome. It's, it's cool to be doing that. So yeah. Yeah. Get with,

get with one of those folks on that, or if you don't know who to get, I guess,

just message eskeology or whatever, and we'll point you in the right direction if you don't

know who to get a hold of. But yeah, that's, that's gonna be cool. So to see what happens this year

on that. And, uh, yeah, we'll see how it goes from there. We'll talk again soon.

89: Winter Check-In and the State of the Season: SVR, Judging Reality, and What's Next

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