Circuit of the Americas is a racetrack in Texas designed for Formula 1 racing. It's famous for its unique design and is a popular venue for car enthusiasts and racing fans.
The Nissan 300 ZX is a sporty car that was made in the 1980s and 1990s. It's known for being fast and stylish, making it popular among car enthusiasts.
The Nürburgring is a well-known race track in Germany where many car manufacturers test their cars. It's famous for being very difficult and exciting to drive on.
Spa-Francorchamps is a well-known racetrack in Belgium where many exciting car races happen. It's famous for its twists and turns, making it a favorite among racing fans.
AutoTempest is a website that helps you find cars for sale by searching many different car listing sites at once. It shows you price trends and lets you save your searches.
K cars are small cars that are very popular in Japan. They have to follow certain rules about how big they can be and how powerful their engines can be, making them great for city driving.
Car
Daihatsu K trucks
Daihatsu K trucks are tiny trucks made by the company Daihatsu. They're really useful for moving things around in tight spaces, like on golf courses or in small towns.
The Toyota RAV4 is a small SUV that many people like because it's useful for families and everyday driving. It's known for being reliable and having a lot of space for cargo.
The Tesla Cybertruck is a new electric truck that looks very different from regular trucks. It's designed to be strong and high-tech, appealing to people who want something unique.
'American name plate' means car brands that are usually thought of as American, like Ford and Chevy. It's a bit tricky because many companies make cars in the U.S. but are from other countries.
A manual transmission is a way to drive a car where you have to change gears yourself using a stick and a pedal. It gives you more control over how the car drives.
Front-wheel drive means that the front wheels of the car are the ones that get the power from the engine. This is a common setup in many cars and helps with fuel efficiency.
The Chrysler 200 is a medium-sized car that Chrysler made for several years. It was meant to be a good option for families, but many people found it lacking in quality.
GR models are special performance cars made by Toyota. They are designed to be more fun to drive and often have features that make them better for racing.
The Subaru Outback is a type of car that can handle rough roads and bad weather. It's popular with people who like to go on adventures or need a reliable vehicle for their family.
The Ford Focus is a small car that is known for being fun to drive and good on gas. It's a popular choice for people who want a reliable vehicle that isn't too big.
The Chevrolet Corvette is a fast and stylish sports car made by Chevrolet. It's known for being very powerful and is often seen as a symbol of American muscle cars.
The Honda S2000 is a small sports car that Honda made for a decade. It's loved for its fun driving experience and powerful engine that can go really fast.
Love them or hate them, everyone has an opinion on cars. But we believe we're all one great car away from being our enthusiast. So we're here to help you find a car you love. And let it take us to everything else in life. I'm Paul. I'm Todd, and this is the everyday driver car debate. Hey guys, welcome back. I was talking to my son this weekend about the podcast and about podcast 1000, and he got his math wrong. He was like, how on earth are you getting to 1000? By the middle of the year,
I just do 900 and I said, no, no, son, this is number 968. Those of you paying attention, that means 9.75 coming up in a couple of weeks will be a live podcast. And a brief change, we're going to start moving the podcast to our original YouTube channel. There are other changes coming. We'll talk about those on 9.75 and then going forward. But there's some serious hands there. I'm leaning into it. But I do want to talk right up front. Welcome back to the podcast. Happy Tuesday. And I do want to mention, you've heard us teasing Koda.
Circuit of the Americas, the number of people I know who are like, what's Koda circuit of the Americas. That is the purpose built F1 track just outside of Austin. It is awesome.
When we did our South trip with our cars of the past, 300 ZX and 928. We got those on Koda. We're going to go back with different cars because we're having the biggest event of the year for hooked on driving and for everyday driver.
Both of them are right there at the hub of Koda May 31st, June 1st of this year. Right now you can register for the track time online hooked on driving.com. And we also link from everyday driver.com.
But there's a bunch of other stuff coming. You can't register for yet. But T's, T's, T's. It is happening. We're very excited. And the 1000th podcast will be there.
Other stuff you can register for is on everyday driver.com, a different website. And that's where the 2025 everyday driver pilgrimage event late April, early May, a day on the ring, a day at Spa, Frankershot, and a road tour in between with some great cars, great food, great people, great hotels, still space available. Great everything. It's going to be really cool.
Yeah. So you can register there for that. And then back to hooked on driving.com. Sure. There's another HOD European adventure, including circuit zanvort. That is just the west of Amsterdam, actually just the north. Sorry. Right out there on the coast, and it's a really cool 2026. I think we would love to have you sign up for that bit of a longer adventure there. So it's Spa, Frankershot, and the ring, including in addition to zanvort. So quite quite a lot of adventures. But yes, Koda, I liked the awesome.
Austin, how many times can you say that fast? Austin, I like that. That's good. That's the big signature event. So that's a US event. Yes, yes, other to well, but we've got other US events coming later. I can't get the details there. But I mean, if you go to the adventures tab on our everyday driver.com page, you will actually see on the adventures tab. You'll see more stuff at least teased or mentioned, but this is the big stuff. And you and I are targeting that code of it. Because again, podcast 1000s happening there. In spite of my son's math, it is happening then. And it's going to be really cool.
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Since you're listening to us, you'll end up shopping for your next car very soon. And when you do, you need Auto Tempest.com.
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Today's topic Tuesday is on the dearth of small cars from listener Zach D who says to us given the reality that cars are getting bigger and heavier and more powerful with every new generation.
This likely any manufacturer will either create a tiny new model or a new tiny model or revive a dead name plate to fill the niche for those of us who only want small nimble low power cars.
Zach drives a 2016 Miata and though he's not planning to part with it anytime soon, he feels the options for small cars are dwindling to near zero.
You're not wrong. That's true. Back in late 2024 from David E we had another question that was related. I'm not sure how much we covered this. I think we touched on it briefly but I don't sure we covered it.
I think we went into it in detail really no. David says if we were in charge of today's best economical drivers cars what would we do next for each one? For example BRZ 86 or Corolla GR or Miata or Civic SI WRX all of those.
What would we do for the next edition of each? I've been looking around I mean I started with consumer trends.
There's of course the Deloitte reports where you can pay the money in and download the huge PDF that is the scientific deep dive.
And then there's various magazines that cover surveys and they cover manufacturer data and it's all over the map.
Consumer buying trends are one thing but I think cars just need to be easier to buy.
I like the Tesla or EV model and we're seeing that Scout is kind of giving everybody the heave ho because Scout might be able to be sold online just like Teslas with no dealer network.
I also feel like cars need to appeal more to the emotional qualities and fun of driving and that's what we've been talking about for a good long time nearly two decades.
Safety is so hard to define to a customer. If you think to any recent car commercial it always touches on safety but it's always about the car because they want to sell the thing to you but they have to establish something about safety and our product addresses it.
Here's the thing that we think is the thing will touch on safety and that will resonate with you viewer and here's how our car fixes the problem so you stand it up and knock it down.
Here's the thing we're talking about and then we have solved it because of the new model and the facelift and it's got the thing and it's safer than ever before because of all the chiming warning lights beeping and buzzing.
All the distractions that keep you from leaving your driveway.
Yes, but we think safety begins with your choices to put your phone down and put both hands on the steering wheel.
True. I also say this to you. Nobody has ever bought a product outside of baby products. Nobody has ever been inspired to buy a product because it was safer.
We buy things because we're interested which is I want that ultimately at the end of the day we want it and that's why we buy it and the only time I think somebody's going to try to prove me wrong and probably can but the only thing I think that safety is the number one consideration is something for your baby and I mean baby I don't mean toddler I don't mean young child I mean just came home from the hospital baby safety is all that matters.
After that stage so also by the way typically it's after that stage for child one child to you like they'll be fine. I have many friends with lots of kids they were like the first were they were terrified so they're like they'll be okay anyway but that's the only time like safety is the paramount thing and other than that line of products we are interested if it's safe.
We don't want it to be dangerous.
Right. We didn't buy it because it's safe. I mean I know there's crash standards nationwide and worldwide and there's some baseline and there has to be some baseline of safety but that means if it's in a catastrophic wreck or something and you can't control anything outside of that.
True. Whether tires, distractions, other drivers, the list is endless about things to address that that product can't do any better than any other car throughout history.
What I also think we're tapping into something that is almost a psychology question and that is if you really want to focus on am I safe in every situation you shouldn't leave the house and by the way you better bubble wrap the house too because the number of things that could kill you are everything.
A tree could fall in your house in a wind storm and then you could slip in the shower. I don't know how we got here but my point is if dangers the thing we're worried about don't get out of bed and like bubble wrap the room but anyway that's not the thing.
I think the problem with small cars isn't even a safety thing, Zach. I think it is Americans are played with this. We don't buy small cars.
We are the exact opposite car buying group of the Japanese who still buy K cars. K cars over here is the best example they can think of. K cars over here are a novelty.
You buy them because you think it's super goofy or a different flavor potato chips. I'm sick of the regular something. I guess I'll try that.
It's it's it's done for a novelty. And you see them actually over here a little dihatsu K trucks. You see them on like golf courses and big places that are resorts because they're perfect to fit down small pedestrian pathways and get you hauling but they're not something we buy.
We don't take it seriously. We take it seriously when it's an escalade with the extra long back and the extra 600 horsepower. That's what we take seriously as a country. We don't buy small cars.
I'm trying to imagine a new ad campaign because I liked what Mini Cooper did for a long time. Yes. They appealed to the fun of driving. And you know what alpha Romeo's commercials were excellent because it appealed to essential nature of driving and enjoying the scenery and finding a road that is just yours and you're reconnecting with yourself. And you know that sort of emotional fun appeal.
They didn't talk about safety or you know what this thing can maybe out accelerate between two semis but maybe not. So you know don't buy our small car.
But we are just I mean this is the thing. We are obsessed with big. We do equate it with safety. But we also equate it with this is mine. I want the space. I want the safety. Yes.
And this is a place where I do think safety leaks its way into a lot of people in car considerations. Well, but if that guy's got a huge vehicle. I can't drive something small because now I'm in danger. That happens as well.
But all of the factors we're talking about to actually bring this back Zach to your question. And that is the only way an automaker in the US is going to make a small car.
Is there going to get a CEO in who wants one because they don't sell in volume.
The only time they've been seriously considered in most product lineups in the US is because we're going to sell this as a city car. It's only a commuter car. But we as Americans don't buy those either.
We consider them throw away. I don't I'm not going to take that seriously. I'm not going to buy a little car just for my commute.
Never mind the fact that I'm getting no miles per gallon as I sit here in traffic. And I should get a small car. We don't think that way.
We are still tied to the for lack of a way to put it the California Freedom Route 66 the movie cars. That's how we think of cars as a country. Even though we use cars. I wish we all did. But we don't.
Yes. But here's the thing. When a CEO comes along and I go to Akio Toyota who came along in the early 2000 Toyota.
He has the pedigree. He's a Toyota man. Yes. He comes from the family. Yes. He takes over the company. But he came from driving and racing and those kind of things.
And you wind up with stuff like the FRS which becomes the 86 chassis. What is that doing in the lineup?
You make cameras. You make preesses and you make tons of them. And they sell faster than you can make them. And you've just broken into trucks and your trucks are doing wonderfully.
What are you doing selling this car? But they sold it. The same thing happened with the super by the way where their expectations what it needed to sell.
We're like, you know, if this sells six to 10,000 cars this year, we'll be happy. Now the RAV 4 selling a half million.
If this car sells six to 10,000, we will feel like that was worth our investment. I'll tell you right now without having seen the books. That was a bunch of red on the books.
Yeah, but it gets that RAV 4 in the garage next to the fun car. You're interested in the fun car. Okay, but hopefully you got something else to fulfill your family needs or your cargo needs or whatever.
But I think more people are going to walk past the fun car just because they want to RAV 4. It requires that person who says, I want to appeal to a segment of the market that wants a car like this and you can't tell me no, look, I'll go the other end of the spectrum. Why does the cyber truck exist?
Because you have a CEO who went, no, no, no, no, no, seriously, that child's drawing make it look like that. Okay, that's the other side of the question. You have to have a CEO who says, I don't care if a bunch of people want this or not.
It's important that it's in the market. And if we lose money on it or it barely breaks even, that's okay because it doesn't exist. And I want it to, if you get a CEO in there who is worried about the books, no small cars in the US.
So Jim Farley because he's a true racer and yet he's got stockholders to report to.
Yes. And a board, you're right, there are no American name plates. I won't say manufacturer because then we get into the, what is American?
Honda's a manufacturer in Ohio, Nissan's in Tennessee. All the trucks of the Toyota are in San Antonio.
Yes. All the BMW SUVs in South Carolina, you know what I mean? So I will say American name plate. None of them have a small car.
And I don't think, I mean, yes, I totally agree with you about the CEO but it's now down to the continents where each name plate is located.
It took Toyota forever to get their trucks big enough. True. True. Yeah.
When they enter the American market, I'll say North American market for trucks. For sure. The first trucks were like, nice try.
Well, the people that are now buying K trucks, I want a smaller truck.
Right. But they did not appeal to F-150 and Silverado buyers. Of course not. Absolutely.
None of those buyers would have ever considered a Tundra. Now they're sort of like, huh. Now they're big enough.
Yeah. Now it's on parody. Now it's actually a good option. Maybe, you know, I switched brands.
Well, they had a big V8 and they had a camera that ran for 2,000 miles. They went, maybe I should get a Toyota Tundra.
They associated that. So it took them forever to get that thinking and revitalize their small car thinking into a big car market.
But for an American name plate to do that and do a true sports car for the world, it can't just be a front wheel drive manual transmission hatchback.
It's got to be something true. The 86 has done really well. The problem is it's not sold in every market. True. True.
But now, if there were to be a car company, maybe BMW, maybe Toyota, who's on cutting edge of tech.
I mean, you could, you could say every car company has this. Sure. They're pursuing the latest technological innovations.
They're pursuing latest tech, latest powertrains, all of that. Great. And that's where they compete. I will say worldwide.
But then in conjunction with their marketing team, I wonder if there is space, Zach, for a marketing team to appeal to old school.
What if a new sports car came out? And the whole ad campaign was this. You start your car with a key.
Whoa. We have buttons in our cars. We made buttons. Hey, look, buttons. Hey, look, a mechanical door handle.
What do you know? Hey, we've got a manual transmission. And this thing isn't hybrid.
And it's ready for all of you drivers out there. Come drive. It's ready. It's waiting. Come to your local dealer and get it.
I think to a certain amount of people, a certain part of the population, that would appeal greatly.
But all of these small cars, Zach are a very niche market to all of the enthusiast drivers who want something small lightweight and low power.
That's not most of the market. And it never needs to be. We're talking as if, well, this needs to be completely wiped away and today ends and SUVs and trucks don't need to existing more.
No, they absolutely need to exist. So you're right. Let's have lower expectations. But every car company doing something small and their small entry leads you to
look at the rest of the portfolio offerings going, oh, they make a truck too. Oh, I didn't know they made a minivan.
Huh, that could actually work because I like the small car. And just by association, I think they're minivan would probably be pretty good too.
Instead of trying to make each brand do their thing, I think that's Stellantis's problem right now.
Well, but you know, it's interesting to bring up Stellantis because I was thinking about this. And I found it online, go search for the how to change cars forever Dodge Dart ad.
This is a few years ago when we released the Dodge Dart. It's about a decade ago. It's a little more than that. Okay. They re-release the Dodge Dart.
Okay, it was it was a companion car. Think about this now to the re-released Chrysler 200.
These were genuinely bad to drive cars, but you couldn't tell it from the commercial.
It is one of the best car commercials of the modern time because it is a car commercial. The marketing department did brilliant.
It is a car commercial for enthusiasts. Most of the time the marketing department is better than the car.
Sometimes the car commercial says what we're all talking about. Decide to make a great driving car. The problem was it wasn't a great driving car.
Now Toyota has done this in a little more viral way where watch the Toyota commercials of the last five years where they brought up the GR models.
And they have the Toyota folks that are excited talking that are the marketing folks that are talking about we can slide it to a parking garage.
And the people that are the corporate folks are going but does it have backup sensors? Those are brilliant because they play both sides.
True. But you have to have somebody who just we're almost back to safety who throws out the safety.
No, seriously, who adheres to safety but their concern is is it any fun?
And then you have to accept and I hate to say that you have to accept that a small part of the market is going to buy it.
But probably dig in and love it. I submit to you, we're going to talk about what we do to change some of these cars.
I submit to you that in some cases, there are people buying Subaru outbacks because they love their WX so much 15 years ago before they had kids.
That's good. Yes. Yes. And they don't really equate the badge on the hood does but the consumer got themselves there by association.
Yes. That's the whole point of offering a large product spread. And if they had small cars for imagine what is the new small fun car from Ford?
It isn't the Mustang and I don't allow the name probe to be ever used again in the history of time.
Go back to the focus. What is that? What is the new Ford focus?
Rear wheel drive, front engine.
Be cool. That's a completely different car than any of us think about what a focus is.
Well, but here's the thing. Bring back the focus and actually have it as a fun hatchback but let's go to the Falcon.
Bring back the Ford Falcon. Make that a genuine 86 competitor.
That's interesting. They've got a Ford's got a ton of names. They've got a ton of them.
I have a short list of here of names for GM. We can bring back the Solstice and Fiero.
Yeah, it's obvious. Obvious shopping Corvette off as the brand and all right.
Solstice is a great name. Solstice at the low end. Fiero is the MR2.
Yeah, for sure, competitor and maybe a cross platform sharing. And then the Corvette at the top end.
Honda S2000. S2001.
The S3000, whatever it is, yeah, for sure.
RX8, RX9 and the Mitsubishi 3000 GT.
It harkens back. All these old names harken back to the good old days.
And man, that's when cars were really insert what you loved about cars then.
But with modern tech, Zach, David, would you be willing to accept a potential hybrid powertrain
with engineering working on light weighting it as much as they can?
There's a business case here. You've got to find a platform in your company's portfolio
to be able to make it. If it's just a one off, well, then we really got to let ourselves be disappointed by low sales.
Because we have to let ourselves just bleed.
Yeah, for sure.
Be sure, platform isn't making us money. It's not shared with anything else.
So we're totally losing money on that one. But hey, we offered a small car.
If we brought these name plates back, that would appeal and people, young drivers
who have never heard of these name plates before.
I think those would appeal.
Oh, well, that's the fun part of your company.
That brings me to the second part where David's asking what we do to these cars for the next version.
I don't have all of them, but I did talk about a few of them for the MX-5 Miata.
I think next for that is a hybrid powertrain.
Next gen is a hybrid powertrain.
I don't want to go fully, it shouldn't be fully V, but a hybrid powertrain.
You get three quarters of a mile on EV charge.
Still keep it under 2500 pounds and convertible.
It shouldn't be bigger.
But it probably will be to accomplish what I'm saying.
But I'm not saying like, what I want is a big Miata. No, I don't.
Still 2500 pounds. Still manual six feet.
But they have to figure out how to have more passenger space.
The current one, the passenger space is poor.
Yes.
Also, there's a lot of seat technology out there.
Figure out with different seats how to create one inch more headroom.
And I say this because the aftermarket keeps solving it for you.
So if the aftermarket can do it, let's do it from the factory.
Let's figure out the really short rails.
And then a seat that has motors in it that goes up and down.
At the bottom you've gained an inch more headroom on a hybrid powertrain,
the Miata that look, I'll give you 2600 pounds.
2600 pounds, by the way, is 300 pounds heavier than the current based Miata.
The RF is like just under 25.
So feather weight.
But it's still not in the market.
Yes, exactly.
So that's the, that's the Mazda Miata.
The GR Corolla should have a variation.
And I'm sure some engineer could do this, but a variation of the Prius drivetrain.
Current Prius drivetrain has a decent amount of power.
Let's crank it up some more.
So it's the Prius drivetrain.
But without a CBT needs to be available manual or with an actual transmission.
But my favorite that I really have thought about here because these cars are close to my heart.
What is the next GR86 BRZ?
At this point, you and I have talked this car to death, okay?
We have talked this car to the point that many beyond that have acknowledged the fact that maybe they get it.
Maybe we should stop shut up about this car.
But also the thing that's happened is there's been enough black battery way to put it online commentary
that many people believe you cannot buy them, cannot drive them because the engines will grenade.
That is the black stain on these cars.
I don't think as many things are true on the internet that there is nearly as much problem as the internet suggests.
But you can't get away from it at this point.
So that car needs a brand new engine.
And I want Toyota.
Who has a history of doing supercharging to have a brand new supercharged engine from the factory
because supercharger feels more like a naturally aspirated engine than turbocharging does.
So a brand new supercharged engine in the updated 86.
However, that platform is also the basis of a small fordoor to amortize out.
So you have a base version with no supercharger.
You have an upper version with a supercharger.
You also have a sister car that is rear wheel drive.
It's essentially the small three series from late 90s early 2000s.
It's good.
But provided by Toyota on the same platform and four doors again with a base engine or a supercharger.
And so you can get the smaller lighter.
It needs to still be under three thousand pound two door two plus two.
That is the new 86 BRZ.
And then you get the sedan version that weighs 3100 pounds.
Four door sedan.
Do you want it base or supercharged?
It's looking like the E36 BMW size.
Think about that.
Where's that four door rear wheel drive?
Yes.
What Toyota nameplate could we bring back?
That allows you to invest in the new engine and the supercharger and that kind of stuff for the 86.
But it also, the number of times, I can't even tell you the number of times.
Whether you've said it this clearly or not, many of you in the audience have written to us and said,
you want it really like?
What's the four door equivalent of the 86?
No one builds it.
That's the thing.
People have asked for a four door Miata or insert 86.
Yeah.
That nobody builds it.
There is an obvious place in the market that Toyota could fill a hole.
Now I don't know how big, but I think they would sell more than they would the actual two door 86.
And maybe combined, the investment would be worth it.
Okay.
I cannot resist this question on Instagram since we're on the topic right now.
Land in early 07 asks for our thoughts on the upcoming prelude.
Will it be a front wheel drive competitor to the GR86?
Possibly a Nissan version down the line.
Because of our Mitzanda.
The mashup.
The company.
Mitzanda.
I guess Mitsubishi has decided they're not in.
Really?
It's just Honda Nissan now.
So we got to come up with yet another company name that's appropriate for just Honda and Nissan.
Okay.
Okay.
So we've all seen this prelude concept coming out.
We've seen it.
I'm excited.
I'm looking forward to it.
Yeah, mostly, but it's appearing to be front wheel drive.
Oh, it will be.
And if they stay away from making a type our version of that, I'll take a GR86.
However, what they could do now that they have a partnership with Nissan, bring back the 240SX.
Agreed.
The Nissan version could move off into drifting.
The prelude version of it.
It's like the twins.
The Toyota version.
Yeah.
The prelude version would be more of the track, the canyon carving, the fun street version.
It would be like grip versus drift.
Well, the, yeah, both Nissan could be scruffier and the prelude could be nicer.
Correct.
Correct.
That's the platform sharing.
That would attract enthusiasts.
And that would justify the Honda Nissan merger that everybody currently is sitting back on.
Yeah.
Yes.
You and Nissan needs Honda.
Why does Honda do Nissan?
Right.
What is this going to spawn?
But as it sits, the prelude is interesting.
You're right.
You're going to drive it.
They better make a type R version of that because prelude.
You're bringing the hallowed name, the fun car.
Interesting.
Yeah.
If they bring the prelude back, Toyota, you've got to do the new Celica.
Toyota, you've got to do the new MR2.
Hopefully, that's coming.
Yeah, hopefully.
If they did a prelude versus 240SX, same platform sharing, and differentiate them just like the GR86 versus BRZ.
I mean, differentiate them more.
Yeah.
And put them, you're right.
One scruffier.
One's a little bit more.
It's downmarked a little bit and not as nice inside.
Yeah.
I get you.
And then the prelude version would be, yeah, you could get more options on that.
Yeah.
Be nicer.
And of course, you could get Apple CarPlay because it's not a GM product.
It's not a GM product.
Yeah.
Separate thing.
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We're solving problems over here.
How come the car companies don't call?
They should call for product planning.
Some of them are listening because we know that they are.
I just don't know how much they take us seriously.
But we're out here.
We're slinging stuff.
It's fun for either way.
Sage S is in Chicago, Illinois and he's feeling completely lost.
Okay.
Sage, thank you for writing.
Yeah.
We're here to solve the problem.
Hopefully.
I'm excited to share the solution.
Oh, good.
Okay.
You've found it.
Trademark.
The solution.
Circle R.
Registered trademark.
Wow.
You're trademarking the solution.
I'm sorry, but that sounds like some sort of thing that gets trademarked on a sporting event.
Like some athlete becomes being called the solution.
The solution.
Put the solution in.
Anyway.
Okay.
Well, Sage is in search of a daily.
He's completely lost.
He's 28 years old.
Male bartender in Chicago with a commute in peak rush hour.
He heads home at two to three a.m.
He knows the right answer is a Civic, a Corolla hybrid or a Prius, but he cannot bring
himself to pull the trigger.
He's been a car enthusiast since adolescence, but he's only on two cars, a tragically
wrecked golf sport wagon, and his current daily, a BMW 128i.
Now, here's the thing about this email that shocked me.
The BMW, he said, it's not nearly fun enough considering its average fuel economy on
his commute.
You want to take a guess?
You're wrong.
It's lower than that.
15.6 miles per gallon for a one-series BMW while commuting.
I thought that were better than that.
Every part of me thought they were better than that.
That's like, those are truck numbers.
Well, the expedition gets 12.
I know.
Those are truck.
That's my old cayenne before the big tires.
Now, with the big tires, it's worse.
But that's the old cayenne before big tires.
That's terrible.
Wow.
The budget sage has is $40,000 tops.
Any substantial money saved will go towards the nicest boxer that he can afford in two or
three years from now.
So, he's bouncing around on many options from Beater 2019 to 2020 Model 3's, mid-2004
Rangers, or the FK-8 generation type R's half of his commute would be miserable, he admits.
The drive in would be terrible.
The drive home would be fun.
Exactly.
So, he's looking for something reliable.
Decent on gas, but fun and respectable to other enthusiasts and also be a good complement to this future boxer.
He wants nothing golf-based as he wants to broaden his horizons.
That means the entire Volkswagen portfolio.
The entire Volkswagen portfolio is right.
All of those chases are out.
Golf-based.
His wife drives an outback.
Okay.
Well, I started out with hybrids.
All right.
Sage, have you investigated the new civic hybrid?
They claim 50 city 45 highway from a 200 horsepower powertrain, which is the same as the Civic SI.
Now, that doesn't mean it drives like the Civic SI.
No, but all of those drive decently.
The power output is really compelling alongside that mileage, that word mileage estimate.
And then, of course, I came to searching based on budget.
Okay.
So, what I did was take your $40,000.
And I just thought EVs.
You mentioned Model 3s, but EVs.
And we've touched on this, but I want to go in-depth because with a $40,000, I typed in 50 just to see what was in the $40,000.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That whole swap.
And I found a 2021 Porsche Ticon rear-wheel drive at automotive avenues in New Jersey with almost 37,000 miles for $40,999.
Those are so cheap.
So, take 40 grand for a 2021 Ticon.
It's hard to argue Model 3 when that's staring you in the face.
Okay. Autotemps.com slash every day.
Set my high profile at $50,000.
Sure.
Yeah.
And that's, I found multiple Ticons from about $40,000 to $43.
Mm-hmm.
If you want to go more than that, well, of course, there's more.
But just at the just over the mark of $40,000, holy cow sage.
Mm-hmm.
So, I kept going.
I thought, well, if that's what Ticons are, what are BMW i4s?
Oh, that's interesting.
You're going to be astonished because I found a 2023 i4 eDrive 40 base-ish model.
But it's got power.
We've driven that car.
That car has got plenty of power.
58,000 miles for just under $30,000.
i4s.
That car was like $80,000.
Right.
They're $30,000 now.
Oh my gosh.
So then I kept going.
If you're going to spend $30,000, what 2023 model year and newer $30,000, combustion engine car, can you find?
Okay.
When you set those parameters, not a lot of fun cars come up.
Some mini-coopers, newer BRZs and GR86s, a whole lot of Kia souls, lots of Dodge challengers,
Moustangs, as far as the I can see, a handful of Fiat 500 e's, and a 2023 poll start to long range,
which could be another option.
But the Ticon at $40,000 just over is respectable to other enthusiasts?
Yes, I think it answered that question.
But if we're spending $30,000 under, there you go.
The car we won't shut up about is the GR86.
That would be very complimentary.
And I think it's becoming the new, you know how Miata's always the answer car.
That's what the GR86 has become.
Interesting.
You talked in very similar places to where I ended up as well.
I do want to say that the, look, the Model 3 would work great here.
I don't know what the infrastructure is around you.
You're not going to wind up with a Model 3 performance.
I doubt for your budget, you're looking at older, you say older, beater Model 3s.
How much are you going to like a beat down Model 3?
That's my unknown.
Okay.
There is no question that a Model 3 would work great for your commute.
They do that really great, the chassis is solid.
Even in the non-performance form, they drive well.
I'm not going to take anything away from it.
The Model 3 performance is better.
And probably more the enthusiast style you're looking for.
But now you're spending probably more than you want.
So I don't know about that.
That's what the reason I said earlier,
that if you really could get a $40,000 rear-wheel drive Ticon?
Ticon.
That does feel better at checking that box than the Model 3.
I will agree with that.
I have to put this out here, Mini Cooper S.
It's good.
Fun to drive?
Yes.
You can get it in a manual if you want.
You can get it in a decent auto if you don't.
It's a BMW underneath.
I realize that, but they are fun to drive.
Great gas mileage.
Typically, the Mini Cooper S, I don't know how they do this,
drives more fun than that chassis when taken and used by BMW.
I don't know what's going on over there.
It's the strangest thing.
Yeah.
And there's no question.
That is a car that no one hates.
Like people don't even like cars.
The Mini Cooper is fine.
Right.
And people that are enthusiasts see a Cooper S.
That's a cool car.
That is the car that like across the spectrum is just cool.
Yes.
So Mini Cooper S works.
But then I'm going to do a twist on what Paul just said.
I don't think it's the 86.
I think it's the BRZ.
You do slightly softer than the 86.
They don't sell that many so you can find them a lot easier.
You can get deals a lot easier.
And in your situation the auto doesn't matter.
Oh, that's true.
Just get it in the auto.
The slightly softer, slightly better commute vehicle of the two from the factory.
You don't need to get the TS model.
You can get it in auto.
Oh, here's the thing.
Because he's slogging through half of it.
Exactly.
Get the automatic.
Here's the thing.
The auto is not a, I want to go to the track this weekend automatic transmission.
But I just want to drive this every day.
Perfectly fine.
That's good.
Six speed and good.
I think you could find a good deal on one of those.
And here's my concern.
Here's why I actually kind of want to push you toward the BRZ or the Mini Cooper or the
Tycoon or something that is fun in its own right.
Because you want to get a boxer in two or three years.
What's two or three years going to be like?
You don't know.
True.
I don't want you to get something that's a torture chamber now.
Because you think fun is coming.
This is the everyday driver part of what we do.
I want you to have a car that is fun to drive right now.
And if the boxer does come in a couple of years and it's awesome.
I hope it does and that's great.
But I want the car you're driving right now to feel like I get to drive that.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
So that if the boxer comes in a few years graded.
If it doesn't and life changes and that happens.
We get it.
We get these emails all the time.
Our lives change.
Your lives change.
This was my plan.
And six months later, none of that works.
Okay.
Yes.
But you're still driving something kind of fun.
So I think it's BRZ.
Maybe a one year old BRZ.
You could find a deal on one of those.
In automatic.
That's really good.
You could save you even more money.
You could probably find one of those for 20 mid 20s.
Then you'd have even more money to put towards your future boxer.
Or the future boxer.
And here's the thing.
When the boxer shows up.
It's not going to be like, oh, thank God I can get out of the BRZ.
You're going to be like, huh.
Should I keep it to?
Ah.
Slightly different animal.
Also fun.
And the thing about the BRZ.
I never pulled this off with my 86s because we're at altitude with hills.
And I never pull up anything close to what the rest of the nation gets in gas mileage.
But those get high 20s and often low 30s.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you've doubled your gas mileage.
And you've stayed in a small fun light car in the BRZ.
Well, here we go.
Please, Sage.
Take your wife with you.
And take your out back to the dealership when you go shopping for BRZ.
And be like, look, I'm a customer.
I'm a Subaru customer.
I'm looking for a BRZ.
I want to own your portfolio.
Look.
I've got an outback.
What do you have that's BRZ flavor?
You're allowed to have two of the same brand in this case.
And it's an easy sell for your wife.
You're like, honey, it's just a Subaru.
It's a Subaru.
They just run outback BRZ done.
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Thank you guys for your great questions starting with Petrolhead 2003 on Instagram.
Asking which car company has produced the largest number of great cars.
And Petrolhead says companies like Launch Alpha certainly come to mind.
Yes.
But the largest number of great cars.
I guess it wouldn't be Porsche, because even though they've produced many 9.11s,
that's still one model.
Sure.
Same for Cayman.
Great.
A lot of variations, but that's still one model.
Well, and see, Top Gear covered this a while back and they talked about Alpha and Lancia
because they didn't haven't made all that many models.
That's a great show.
It's not that many models and in general, the models have been fairly fun.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah, the Italian brands in Italians are all about the fun cars.
I think Lotus is up there for the most number of fun cars.
Well, every car notice ever.
Every redics.
Not all of them, but theoretically the percentage is high, but they haven't made very many cars
and they've made very, very few models.
So it tips the whole thing.
I mean, you could say Ferrari here.
Yes.
Because that's all they make theoretically.
Modern McLaren.
You could say this.
McLaren's made a lot of fun car.
They don't make SUVs.
They don't make a sedan.
True.
You can tip the scales here.
I think the hard part is when you go into a mass market producer.
BMW would be up there if it's mass market.
BMW gets the closest pretty easily.
Yeah.
Toyota's starting to get there.
We like that.
That's an ongoing question.
I think Honda did really well.
Certainly, if we stocked the clock at 2000, they did great.
Yes.
But Honda did really well for a while.
I think they're less interesting now, but a lot of their stuff has been.
You talked about it last podcast and other podcasts.
Why is the CRX a car we look back on fondly?
Where's the CRX?
But the modern CRX?
But the concept.
The concept of the CRX, everybody made that car.
Yes.
Small, unassuming front wheel drive, hatchback with a lot of gas and a lot of glass and no power.
But yet we go, ah, a CRX.
How did you pull that off?
That's impossible.
How was that car good?
Because there are no airbags in the A-pillar.
There is that.
Yeah, the A-pillars were like paper fan.
They were like matchsticks.
It was amazing.
Back to safety.
Anyway, let's define safety.
Geese1RBM asks a related question on Instagram.
He says, we've been covering cars for a while.
Yes, we have.
Looking back, what automotive trends did we see coming?
And which ones surprised us?
I will say two things that we called early.
We're not all going to be on autonomous pods.
When everybody was freaking out in like 2016 to 2018, we were freaking out because everything was going to be autonomous.
We're like, hang on a minute.
Yeah.
It's not happening quite that fast.
The other one was, we have to go EV.
I'd better buy a combustion car now because my next car in three years is going to be an EV.
And we've watched the market revolt.
And I am not saying that Paul and I called that because we just thought we had some insider information or we're just whatever.
We just looked at them.
We're like, I don't see how this is possible.
Yeah.
That was the question.
I will say one that surprised me and it surprised me because I didn't think it was going to work and I didn't think I was going to love it.
Is car play?
That's good.
First announcement.
Yes.
Well, Apple's going to do this thing where you plug your phone and it duplicates your phone on the screen and I was like,
do we really need that?
I was against it.
I was like, this is stupid.
Nobody's going to want that.
Why are we doing it?
And now I'm like, the car didn't have car play?
Well, that's a bummer.
I really like it.
The conversation about at one point Ford was making all the enthusiast cars and they totally shifted away from that and Toyota wasn't.
It was just Prius land for as far as the I could see.
They traded personalities.
Yes.
And suddenly the company's flopped.
We touched on it.
I don't know if it was a prediction.
No, no.
We have recognized it.
No, no.
We didn't predict it.
We recognized it because we recognized it when Ford did it and we were astonished when Toyota took up that mantle.
But that comes back to where we started.
This is change of CEOs.
It's change of planning.
It's change of where we want to spend our money.
Yep.
Yep, where cars are designed and built and engineered.
Andrew on Facebook says, is it still worth owning a fun dual purpose daily driver for a short and boring commute?
Or is it better to have a commute vehicle and a separate fun vehicle?
Andrew, what do you haven't told us is how short and how boring is this commute?
I mean, if it's short enough, then you just buy the iconic fun car.
Because the commute is so short it doesn't matter.
You just need transport and you drive the fun car all the time.
And then you endeavor, you can put more money into and you endeavor to drive the fun car on weekends and actually take it distance because you went, I'm guessing here, five miles.
Okay.
But if you're talking truly boring commute, then yeah, you buy a BMW i3.
That's a quirky little commute device for 15 grand.
And then go spend a bunch of money or buy a used mini or an old golf or whatever.
But the thing that I'm always concerned about, we talked about earlier in this episode, I don't want you to suffer daily.
Yeah.
We have so much trouble all of us, remembering that driving is fun because we don't often do the fun driving.
And I know I over talk about it, but the thing I'm always astonished about is that my little stupid Lotus Elise is fun doing stupid things.
Just I need to go get groceries and I need to go three miles and the Lotus makes it interesting somehow.
So I want you to have fun daily.
So I would rather you had a fun daily than just a, well, this is my suffer car.
And then I have a car that I enjoy later.
Richard D our friend Richard asks if Porsche has achieved level 42 autonomous track driving.
He was watching Matt's review of the new 992.2 GT3 and listening to him talk about the steering programming to be consistent with the entire life of the car, how the car reacts differently with cold tires.
And then using programming to improve lap times, Richard couldn't help wonder if Porsche has gone too far.
Yes, but so has every car company.
Speaking of going too far, we recently drove the Hyundai i5N.
We did, yes.
And it has speakers on the outside of the car.
So you can downshift in a fake engine noise car and impress people, you know, like blip the throttle and there's crackle on the overrun.
It's super loud for you in the car by the way.
It's really loud.
So we've gone to all fakery but we kind of like it.
Is that going too far?
Yeah.
A few years ago we were teasing every car manufacturer going fake engine noises during that off.
I switched to turn that off or put the plug in or whatever.
I want to hear the real thing, man.
Hold that fuse, yeah.
So then car company started actually doing that.
And there's another question here.
Let's see.
Capeless 9 asking if Hyundai can make the i5N sound good with no motor at all.
How come BMW can't do?
There are M cars with no actual motor to make actual noises sound good.
The future is fake everyone.
Oh my god.
And if it's good enough, like the i5N, we'll all kind of think,
huh, that was kind of fun.
So I maintain, yes, Porsche has gone too far.
But let's say they introduce, it's just car.
Mid-engine, small, lightweight.
Our car uses a key.
It has buttons, everyone.
Yeah.
Look, mechanical door.
No LED anything.
Well, maybe a few LEDs.
But no.
That's just a couple.
Yeah.
No real technological advances that belong in the higher cars.
Because every car company has to have something to sell next.
And every car company is leaning on tech to be able to do it.
You have to.
You've got to offer more better next.
What's better.
Yeah.
What changed because theoretically all the good cars that are on sale
and have been throughout history.
Couldn't they just sell those forever?
Couldn't they just keep running?
Crash standard and safety standards apply.
And let's update it just to, you know, just like right under the wire.
Let's just get it right there.
Just came over.
But then now it's modernized.
So it begs the question, a restomod or just bringing cars up to modern standards
and continuing on with a new version of that.
Well, I maintain there's a good case for that.
I think that would appeal to a lot of drivers that discover fun
and then associate that in every other product they make like Mazda.
Well, if you make the Miata, all your other cars must drive like that.
Of course, I'm going to buy your CX million, whatever.
The CX million.
This CX.
New from Mazda.
We don't know what it does, but it carries a lot of people that it has a Mazda bag.
More than the Homer.
It's very good.
It's very good.
Daniel asked a question.
I'm going to get geeky for a second.
So hang in there.
We're going to go movie geeky.
He says, at some point, can video quality become too minute to notice?
Daniel.
Pull up a chair by the fire.
Let's talk about resolution.
He said, okay.
We're talking about formats like 1080p, 4K, 8K.
Is there a point where it's indeterminable by the eye?
Is more truly always better?
Daniel.
Daniel.
Daniel.
Welcome to another hour of podcast.
Actually, I'm not going to take that long.
Let me go through this real quickly.
There are a lot of ways things get measured for resolution.
And one of the things that confuse the heck out of me when I first got in the film industry
is that film was typically measured vertically.
And TV stuff was measured horizontally.
Actually, sorry.
The reverse.
TV was measured vertically.
And film was measured horizontally.
Can't we get together on this?
Now, most of the time, it's measured horizontally.
Okay.
Think about your widescreen.
Please turn your phone sideways and film widescreen.
Think about widescreen TVs.
All right.
Everything's gone to 16 by 9.
That's the aspect ratio.
How long is it versus how tall it is?
We used to have standard definition.
That was 4 by 3.
It wasn't even widescreen.
The resolution of that was 640 pixels wide.
640.
Okay.
So think about when we went to HD.
High definition.
Yeah.
This is how crazy it was.
I was actually in a college class in the 90s.
And they rolled out an HD monitor.
And we're like, this is coming.
It was the early 90s.
The monitor was maybe 14 inches wide.
So we all had to come down.
It was a big class.
We all had to come down.
We all had to come down.
We all had to come down.
We all had to come down.
We all had to come down.
We all had to come down.
Get in line and walk by a little monitor.
Be like, that really is.
Really sharp.
It was very cool.
They were like, this is coming soon.
It was only like 15 years later.
So it was standard.
But separate thing.
Anyway.
But SD was 640 pixels wide.
Not widescreen.
HD is 1920 wide.
1920 by 1080.
Or 1080p, which is measuring vertically.
Then we walked away from that.
And now we're going wide.
But 1920 by 1080.
So it's 1920 pixels wide.
Which is close to 2K, which is a film term.
But I won't go there right now.
Here's the thing.
4K is twice as much as HD.
Take the 1920, 1080 times 2.
It's 3840 by 2160.
8K is twice again.
7680 by 4320.
Holy cow.
Holy cow.
So we really are doubling.
Once we got to HD, we are doubling.
If you watch SD versus HD.
I'm not even talking 4K yet.
It's a revelation.
Watch an old TV show in standard definition on YouTube.
And watch the friends.
There's a great example.
Watch a remastered version of Seinfeld Friends.
Any of those shows that originally in SD.
Top Gear was SD forever.
That's right.
It was originally produced in SD.
You watch the HD versions and it's like a whole new...
It's like you once were blind and now you see.
It's astounding going from SD to HD.
HD to 4K really matters on how much bit depth.
What is the quality of image being pushed down the pipe to you?
I've said this before.
If you watch an HD blu-ray on your 4K TV versus a quote unquote 4K streamed thing off the web.
The 4K should be twice as good, right?
Nope.
The HD blu-ray is probably going to look better because there's more data to fill those pixels.
So that becomes a factor.
But now to your question.
Beyond 4K.
Generally, the human eye can't tell the difference.
Beyond 4K.
So 8K?
The average person looks at 4K versus 8K and they won't be able to tell the difference.
Isn't it film?
Just an old-school film?
Isn't that 8K?
You've hung out with me before.
Old-school film is around 4K.
It is.
35mm is around 4K.
All right?
And here was the argument we used to have when I was working at New Line.
Because old-school film used to be there was the original negative and then you had to make...
You had to get generations out of printing to get to the actual print.
We're talking old-school now.
The actual print running through the projector at your local theater.
The argument was, the degradation going multiple generations from the original negative
meant you were probably watching about a 2K equivalent at your local theater.
And when they first went to digital projection, those were all 2K projectors.
Really?
Now they're upgraded to 4K.
They're all 2K originally.
And we all were like, oh, digital projection is awesome.
That was 2K projection.
So just a little bit more than HD.
Now we've got 4K on our homes.
But truthfully, the average person.
If you show them 4K and 8K.
Detail-wise, they cannot tell any longer.
Really?
Now 8K allows you to lot more things that you can do in, you know,
you're building all of your special effects in 8K because they down-res.
But there's a bunch of things we could argue.
But most people, the average viewer.
4K is about as much resolution as you can tell.
Now, I will give you one random example.
Not in picture, but in audio, to give you an example.
There's always exception people.
People blessed by God in the way they were built.
Or they have trained themselves to some ridiculous thing.
When I was working at New Line.
The general rule was, we're looking at sync.
Audio and picture sync.
Does the sound of you making an M or a P or a whatever?
Does it match your lip movement?
Okay?
M peas and bees.
That's the way you check, because you have to close your mouth and reopen it.
Okay?
The average person can't tell beyond about four frames out.
If it's in sync.
If it's within four frames, like under four frames,
like it's running three frames, it can't even tell.
It's rare to find anybody that can tell two or less.
I, over time, was able to tell two, but I could never get less.
I started working with a woman, late in my career at New Line.
We were sitting watching a trailer and she said, this is out of sync.
And I said, no, it's not.
And she said, I promise you, it's at least a frame out of sync.
It's like a frame, a frame.
You can tell a frame.
She could tell a half frame.
What?
And I learned over time.
If Bridget said that was out of sync, I just said we got to fix it.
What?
So, that's what I'm saying.
There's always exceptions to the rules.
But 4K, you got all the resolution you need truly.
But what I will say this to you, if you want to argue about I want better picture,
get better feed, not more resolution.
Because your typical 4K stream is not a very high res actual stream.
And now I'm talking bitrate at a bunch of other geeky things
and 20 minutes have already gone by.
But there you go.
So what I'm hearing is that when we have TVs in the future that are sold to us as 8K TVs,
it's all marketing in the same way that Porsche has used the word turbo to indicate...
Yes!
No, it's just a marketing term.
Well, it's like when we had high definition film cameras.
That may be left so hard.
I would stay at the grocery store looking at one of those disposable cameras
as it now and HD and I was like, no, it is not.
It is absolutely not.
And on that bombshell.
There we go.
Thank you guys for listening.
Really appreciate your questions.
Write to us every day.
Drive your TV at gmail.com, topic Tuesdays, car conclusions, bitrate depth.
Yeah, let's talk about resolutions.
Let's talk about resolutions.
Let's talk about resolutions.
Let's talk about something else.
Why not?
Cheers everyone.
About this episode
Exploring the decline of small cars in the U.S. market, the hosts delve into listener questions about the future of compact vehicles and how manufacturers can revitalize interest. They discuss the emotional appeal of driving and the importance of fun over safety in car buying decisions. The episode also features a segment on a listener's search for a practical yet enjoyable daily driver, leading to suggestions like the GR86 and BRZ. With insights on automotive trends and potential revivals of classic nameplates, the discussion is both thought-provoking and entertaining.
Awesome in Austin – the guys discuss signature 2025 events, and you’re invited! For Topic Tuesday, they discuss the reality of cars getting bigger and more powerful – are small car options dwindling to zero? They debate fun daily options for Sage in Chicago, who feels lost when it comes to deciding what’s next. Social media questions ask which car company has produced the largest number of great cars, has Porsche achieved Level 42 Autonomous Track Driving, and at what point is video quality too minute to notice?
Please rate + review us on iTunes, and subscribe to our two YouTube channels. Write us with your Car Debates, Car Conclusions, and Topic Tuesdays at [email protected] or everydaydriver.com. Don’t forget to share the podcast with your car enthusiast friends!
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