They’re using “soft rotor” to mean a “light off-road” version of an SUV. It’s not built for serious rock crawling, but it gets styling and a few upgrades so it looks tougher and can handle mild dirt or rough roads.
The Toyota RAV4 Woodland is a RAV4 with a tougher-looking package. It’s meant to handle light off-road stuff and look more rugged, mainly through styling and a few practical tweaks.
“Off roadify” just means “make it more off-road-ish.” In this context, it’s mostly small upgrades and styling changes that help the SUV look tougher and handle rougher roads a bit better.
Term
buy on frame stuff
“Body-on-frame” is a way of building a vehicle where the main structure is a separate frame, and the body sits on top. It’s often used on trucks and some rugged SUVs because it can be tougher for rough conditions.
The Range Rover is a large SUV made for both regular driving and rough roads. Some versions are built to handle off-road conditions better than typical SUVs. It’s mentioned because it can be set up for more serious trail driving.
“Low range” means the SUV can gear down so it moves slowly with more pulling power. That helps when you’re climbing, crawling, or driving over tough terrain.
“Hill descent” is a feature that helps you go downhill slowly and smoothly. It uses the car’s systems to control speed, but it’s not the same as having true low-range off-road gearing.
The “off road trend” is when car brands add off-road styling and a few features to regular SUVs to make them seem more capable. The hosts are saying that sometimes it’s not the same as a vehicle that’s truly built for tough trails.
The Ford Bronco is an SUV that’s designed for off-roading. The hosts mention it to show how popular real off-road SUVs have become, and how that demand influences other models.
The Toyota 4Runner is a Toyota SUV known for being able to handle rough roads. The hosts list it as one of the popular models that makes people want more off-road capability in other SUVs too.
These are special versions of SUVs that are advertised as being better for trails and rough roads. The hosts are trying to figure out whether the extra cost buys real upgrades or just looks and tires.
They set up a rough driving route with different surfaces and had several people drive the SUVs while taking notes. It’s their way of comparing which trims really handle off-road use better.
The Passport is a mid-size SUV made for everyday driving and family use. Some versions are set up for more rugged, outdoor-style trips than a basic model. The podcast lists it with other SUVs that have trail-focused trims.
This is a Ford Explorer trim that’s designed to handle rougher conditions better. The hosts are comparing trims to see what you really get for the extra money.
This is a Hyundai Palisade trim meant to feel more “adventure-ready.” The hosts are testing whether that means real off-road capability or mostly appearance and tire changes.
These are tires made to handle more than just clean pavement. They’re usually a compromise: better traction on dirt and rough roads than regular tires, but not as specialized as true off-road tires.
They mean how the SUV drives in everyday street conditions. The idea is that if you build it for off-road, you might lose some of the smoothness or efficiency you’d get from a version tuned mainly for regular driving.
Term
CR angle
“CR angle” means the way Consumer Reports looks at cars. They’re saying their tests are mostly about how vehicles do on regular roads, so the comparison is about the tradeoff for daily driving.
The Honda CR-V Trail Sport is a CR-V version meant for rougher roads than the regular one. Here they’re pointing out that choosing this off-road trim can lower gas mileage compared with the regular CR-V.
The Honda Passport Trail Sport is a tougher, off-road-leaning version of the Passport SUV. In this discussion, it’s an example of how the off-road trim can reduce gas mileage compared with the regular Passport.
“EPA difference” means the government-rated fuel economy numbers for different cars/trim levels. If the off-road setup lowers miles per gallon, you’ll spend more on gas over time.
Ground clearance is how much space there is between the ground and the bottom of the car. More clearance helps the vehicle avoid scraping on bumps or uneven terrain.
A lifted suspension means the car sits higher than usual. That can help it handle rough terrain, but it can also change how the vehicle feels when turning and driving normally.
Car
Subaru Wildernesses
Subaru Wilderness is an off-road version of a Subaru. They’re saying it usually uses a raised suspension, not just bigger tires, to help with ground clearance.
The Outback is a Subaru vehicle that’s built like a car but with SUV-style height and capability. Some versions, like the Wilderness, are designed to go over rougher ground by raising the suspension. The podcast mentions it because those lifted setups matter if you plan to drive off the pavement.
An avoidance maneuver is a test where the car has to swerve to avoid an obstacle. They’re using it to compare how different off-road setups affect control and speed during the maneuver.
The Subaru Forester Wilderness is a special version of the Forester made for dirt roads and muddy conditions. In the discussion, it’s described as feeling more sure-footed—like it has better grip—when the trail gets wet and rutted.
All-wheel drive means power goes to all four wheels, not just the front or rear. That helps the tires grip better on slippery or messy roads, which is why the hosts think it matters on muddy trails.
Term
muddy and whatnot
“Mud pits” and rutted muddy sections are a traction challenge because the tires can lose contact with the ground and start sliding side-to-side. The hosts describe how the Wilderness felt like it had more grip in wet, rutted areas, which is exactly the kind of situation where tire grip and AWD behavior matter.
“Confidence” here means how safe and in-control the car feels when the trail gets rough. The hosts think the off-road trim helps you feel steadier, even if other versions can make it through too.
The Forester is a compact SUV that’s meant to be useful in different driving conditions. Some versions, like the Wilderness, are built to handle rougher roads better. The podcast brings it up because it’s associated with mud and trail-style driving.
That BFGoodrich KO is a more serious off-road style all-terrain tire. It’s built for traction on rough ground, and it tends to be louder on regular roads than gentler all-terrain tires.
“Rugged terrain” usually means a tire that looks off-road but is tuned to be easier to live with on regular roads. It’s meant to be less harsh and less noisy than the most aggressive off-road tires.
“On-road all-terrain” tires are basically all-terrain tires that are tuned to behave better on pavement. They’re often quieter and more stable than the most aggressive off-road versions.
The sidewall is the part of the tire that you see on the outside of the wheel. Some tires are made to look tougher by changing the sidewall design, even if the tread is more road-friendly.
The shoulder is the outer edge of the tire tread. If that edge is designed differently—like having fewer, smaller tread blocks—it can make the tire feel more stable in turns and often quieter.
Rotating your tires means swapping them to different corners of the car. It helps them wear more evenly, which is especially important with all-terrain tires that can start wearing in odd patterns.
The contact pads are the parts of the tread that touch the road. As the tire wears down, those areas can start wearing unevenly, especially on all-terrain tread designs.
“OE fitment” means the tire is the one the car maker designed for that specific SUV and wheel setup. It can be chosen to match how the vehicle drives, not just to look right.
All-season tires are meant to be a “do most things” tire for most weather. They’re usually better on smooth roads than all-terrain tires, but they may not match the traction of deeper-tread tires in rougher conditions.
Deeper tread means the tire has more rubber grooves to work with. That can help it grip better in rain and snow and can keep traction longer as the tire wears down.
Lugs are the chunky parts of the tire tread. More aggressive lugs are designed to dig in for better grip on dirt, gravel, or snow, but they can make the tire noisier on pavement.
Continental’s Terrain Contact is a particular tire model the hosts call out as doing well. They also point out it’s not meant to be the most extreme off-road tire, which is why it can work nicely on regular roads.
Tire rotation means swapping tires to different wheel positions so they wear more evenly. That helps the tires last longer and keeps the car driving the way it should.
Term
R4s
“R4s” means a four-cylinder engine. They’re talking about how the engine and the tires affect how loud the car feels in everyday driving.
OE tires are the tires that come on the car when it’s new from the factory. The hosts are saying those factory tires can be expensive too, and all-terrain replacements may cost a bit more.
Miles per gallon (MPG) tells you how efficiently the car uses fuel. The hosts are saying off-road trims can reduce MPG a bit, often because the tires are built for grip off-road and can be less efficient on pavement.
Rolling resistance is how hard it is for the tires to roll along the road. Higher rolling resistance usually means the engine has to work harder, which can reduce gas mileage.
Even though tires look simple, their shape affects how air flows around the car. Wider off-road tires can make the car less efficient at highway speeds.
The Jeep Wrangler is a very off-road-focused SUV. The host is saying that if someone won’t actually go off-roading much, a Wrangler might be more than they need.
Tires have limits: they’re rated for how much weight they can support and how fast they’re designed to go. If you swap tires, you need to make sure the new tires meet the same safety limits as the original ones.
Stability control is the car’s electronic safety system that helps keep you from losing control when the tires start to slip. If you change tire types, the car may not “match” the new grip as perfectly as it does with the original tires.
Traction control helps stop the wheels from spinning uselessly when you accelerate on slippery surfaces. If you put different tires on the car, the system may react differently because the tires grip differently than stock.
Term
OE
OE means the original parts the car came with from the factory. The car’s safety electronics are often set up to work best with those original tires.
The Kia Sportage is a popular SUV model. In this segment it’s used as a comparison point, and the hosts say the tires you choose are usually the biggest reason the car feels more or less off-road.
The 2023 Toyota RAV4 Prime is a hybrid SUV you can plug in to charge the battery. The question here is whether taking off the roof racks/crossbars helps it use less fuel, because those parts can create extra wind resistance.
Crossbars are the bars on top of the car that you use to mount a roof rack or cargo. They can make the car less efficient because they create extra wind resistance.
Fuel economy is basically how many miles you can drive on a gallon of gas (or how much fuel you use per distance). The discussion is about how adding things on the outside can make the car less efficient because it has to fight the air more.
Roof bars are the bars that sit on top of a car to hold things like bike racks or cargo. They can slightly reduce gas mileage and sometimes add wind noise because they affect how air moves over the roof.
Bike racks are the mounts you use to carry bicycles. They can hurt mileage a bit even when they’re empty, because they still change the airflow around the vehicle.
Aerodynamic drag is the “air resistance” that slows your car down. If you add things on the outside (like roof bars), the air doesn’t flow as smoothly, so the car has to work harder and may get worse gas mileage.
They mention the Ford F-150 as an example of a less fuel-efficient vehicle. The point is that when you add extra gear that makes the truck work harder against the air, the mileage drop can be more noticeable than on a smaller, more efficient SUV.
EPA numbers are the official fuel-mileage ratings you see for cars in the U.S. They’re measured using standardized tests, so your real mileage can differ—especially if you add extra gear on the outside.
Fuel efficiency is basically how many miles you get for the amount of gas (or energy) you use. For plug-in hybrids, it changes a lot depending on whether you’re driving on electricity or gas. Charging and driving smoothly can help you get better numbers.
“Electric portion of the drivetrain” refers to the time the vehicle is powered primarily by its electric motor(s) rather than the gasoline engine. In a plug-in hybrid like the RAV4 Prime, charging determines how much of your trip can be done electrically. Using more electric power generally improves fuel economy.
It means trying to get more miles out of each tank of gas. You do that by driving in a way that uses less energy and, for plug-in hybrids, by using electricity when you can. The goal is fewer trips to the pump.
A sound meter is a device that measures how loud something is. It can help you compare how noisy the car is in a fair, number-based way. That’s useful when you’re trying to tell whether changes actually make the car quieter.
LIVE
Welcome back to the Talking Cars podcast. I'm Alex and Isaac. I'm Ryan DeLukowski. And
I'm Aubrey Wischegrab. All right. So today we are talking about what we are calling soft
rotors. And you're going to tell us all about what that is. But essentially this is one
of the biggest trends in the automotive industry right now. And so we just had to get our hands
on some of these types of vehicles and explore them, try them out. And that's what we're going
to be talking about today. But first, Ryan, if you can tell us what the heck a soft rotor actually
is, and we will take it from there. I really like that term. Well, let's change it right now.
Well, this, yeah, so a soft rotor is sort of an industry term. At least that's how we're taking
it. Yeah. Yeah. Basically it's an off road trim or version of a car that exists. So
Toyota RAV4 Woodland would be like their soft road version. Right. A normally on road oriented
SUV. And they kind of off roadify it a little bit. Yeah. So they're, you know, they might raise it
up a tiny bit, put more altering tires on it and give it some plastics or just, you know, make it
look a little more rugged. So they call it, yeah, they're called them soft road. Why would they do
that? It looks cooler. That's the main thing. Like all these cars, all these, how many do we have?
I mean, all of them look better than their regular road going counterparts. Yeah, they look a little
more tough, a little more interesting, especially in this segment of vehicles where it says the most
popular, right? You want to maybe stand out a little bit. So they get that orange trim and stuff
like that. Yeah. So they, you know, they kind of off, off roadify them. Yeah. Yeah. That's a new word
too. Yeah. That's what this is about. It's new words. Well, this is interesting for us because
we are not off road experts. Okay. We are on road experts, if you will. So what our testing
focus is on. Right. Right. So just a little history. I mean, going back, we've never done a
formal, like formal off road testing ratings, difficult because terrain changes.
I can remember years ago, we had like this mud pit out in the corner of the property and we take a
bunch of cars through it off roadish vehicles that could go, you know, four wheel drive,
buy on frame stuff. This is going back, you know, 15, 20 years ago, we would drive through,
but the first car would drive through and by the time the fourth or fifth car drove through,
it was not the same mud pit. It was a totally different condition. So again, we didn't rate that,
but we just, it was an evaluation. We were just experiencing it. So then some years go by,
we built the Rock Hill, which people have probably seen in videos, but we cemented these rocks into
the hill so they don't move, right? They've been the same way for the last, however long ago that
was, we made that. So, and again, that's still just an evaluation. That's not like a formal test.
And we'll comment on that. If it's like, you know, Range Rover, something that has a low range,
off roady thing. Yeah, something that's claiming legitimate off road, a Wrangler.
Exactly. Yeah. And they do, they go up it. I mean, the Rock Hill is kind of intimidating when you
pull up to it, but it actually, some of these vehicles really can go up in no problem. So
these are not for that, right? These are soft rotors, if you will. I'm going to call them off road
off road versions. Let's switch it right now. Get rid of that word. These are not meant for that.
I mean, again, they're literally the same, almost the same exact RAV4, but it might have like a
motor to inside of it that has a hill of descent. It's got different tires on it and a couple little
things. So it's still not, it doesn't have a low, low range or anything crazy, a ton of extra
ground clearance. So we did a little evaluation. Right. Yeah. And presumably it doesn't cost them
a ton to do this, right? They're just kind of tweaking the vehicles a little bit. And I mean,
this off road trend, whichever avenue you want to take in the industry has been going on for
quite some time now, right? I mean, Wranglers are more popular than ever. The Broncos come back,
the four runner sells a ton, right? And so it's kind of just a way to, I guess, latch on to that
part of the trend too. Those are more extreme vehicles, but people are seeking something
that looks different. They want to go off road, whether they do or not, they think they might
want to someday, right? So they want that extra bit of capability. And so it's just kind of
trickled down to other types of vehicles and that's what this is. So Avery, what did we do?
Right? We got a bunch of cars and we put them through some paces. But if you want to walk us
through that process. So we have 327 acres out here in Colchester, Connecticut. The vast majority
of those acres are not paved, right? So we've got a lot of woods around here. We have a large
fenced off property. And what we did is basically explored that property. We created a course that
spanned the perimeter of our fence line on various different types of terrain. Some of it was muddy,
some of it was rocky, descents, scents, all types of stuff. And we basically took these
borrowed cars and evaluated them on our course. We had a whole day. We had multiple drivers just
cycling through the vehicles, driving them around, taking notes, giving their impressions.
It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. Things got muddy. And yeah, so we had seven,
I believe, different borrowed cars that we had. There were so many. I lost track at one point.
I think here, I've got the list here. So we've got the RAV4 Woodland, the CRV Trail Sport,
the Passport Trail Sport, the Forester Wilderness, the Sportage X Pro, the Explorer Tremor,
and the Palisade XRT Pro. So quite a wide range. And these vehicles, they kind of differ in how
much off-roadiness they have. Their treatment from the manufacturer is not always the same.
Some of these are literally just slap all-terrain tires on them and call it a day.
You get some fancy decals and badging here and there, but functionally, they're just tires.
And this is just a small, we could have doubled the size of that list easily with the amount of
models that have this off-road treatment. There's so many of them out there. So we wanted a variety,
a brand's capability, all that sizes too. Some of those are smaller than others.
I mean, logistically, it would have been hard to get a lot more than this. It was tough to even
align the schedules to get all these cars at the same time.
Yeah. So we borrowed these. We didn't necessarily buy these. And we'll come back to that in a
little bit. We want some input from viewers on that. But yeah. So these were press vehicles,
essentially. Yeah. So they're borrowed press vehicles. And because of that, we didn't do
any formal testing on them. So we're just evaluating them, getting our thoughts together,
and like you're alluding to seeing if we want to test these in the future.
Yeah, that's right. And so what did we find overall? I think coming into this, a lot of us
expected that these were going to have some serious compromises. Generally, if you take
a vehicle that's optimized for on-road and you make it off-road, more off-road capable,
it's going to suffer in the on-road department. But that's not necessarily what we found.
I think overall, there's some compromises and we'll talk about those. But we were surprised
at actually how much not bad they were. Before we go into the details of it, that's an important
point because you were saying, Ryan, is we're really, our testing is very on-road focused.
So when we look at something like this, CR angle, if you will, is to see what are you giving up
potentially by going with something like this over the non-off-road version of the RAV4, for
example, right? So that's really what we're, it's less about seeing exactly how maximum
capable they are off-road. We tried it for sure, but it's more about what are you giving up?
Yeah. And it must be real. I mean, most people are driving these on the road. They're still,
even if you buy these off-road versions, they're still spending 90% of their life
on asphalt, at least 90%. Right. And that's where the safety stuff that we do, we test for,
is important, right? So listen, if you're a hardcore off-roader, you're not listening to us
anyway. And that's fine. We're not offended. I mean, you guys are experts in that. So,
okay. So we, you know, saw some broad trends, right? Across these vehicles for sure. So maybe
if we want to start with some of these, I mean, fuel economy is something we didn't test, right?
Because again, we borrow these cars. So we only do instrumented testing or ratings on vehicles
that we buy. We wouldn't do that here, but we do know from the EPA information that there is
some compromise potentially with some of these models for fuel economy.
Yeah, absolutely. So just a couple examples, these are EPA numbers only. So
CRV Trail Sport, you go from 35 overall. I'm sorry, you go from 37 overall with the non-off-road
trim to 35 overall. Passport Trail Sport, you go from 21 to 20. RAV4 Woodland, you go from
41 to 38. So that's significant, three miles per gallon overall. And the trend kind of continues.
You know, you see 123 miles per gallon EPA difference. So that can add up over time
and definitely something to consider, right? The other thing, so with noise, now a lot of
these cars have all-terrain tires on them, you get a little bit more road noise. And you notice
it right away, even at lower speeds, some of them more than others, but some like the Passport,
Trail Sport, you did have this kind of humming that came in even around town. It's not really
overly bothersome, but it's noticeable, right? You're not going to have a manufacturer sell a car
that's like excruciatingly loud, right? So, you know, they tune the tires to the vehicle and they
make sure that, you know, it's still going to be acceptable. It's acceptable, yeah. It's acceptable.
And we found that it was kind of, in some cases, a different type of noise, right? Not necessarily,
you know, unequivocally louder, right? It was just maybe different noise than the standard car.
Sounded. In some cases, it's like a white noise almost, but it's just a little bit elevated,
so you hear it. Some other trends that we found, a lot of these all-terrain tires are actually a
taller sidewall. And so, that actually improved the ride quality in some cases, especially with
bump absorption. It takes some of that firmer edge off in some cases. Handling, likewise, took a
slight hit, but again, it's not a huge difference, especially you're not going to really notice it
in daily driving. Yeah, it was minimal. But around our track, you could tell that
they were a little less responsive. They rolled maybe a little bit more in corners,
things like that. Ground clearance, again, sometimes it's just the tires, and those are what
are giving you the higher ground clearance. Yeah, I think the Toyota RAV4 is that way. It's just a
larger outside diameter. They don't actually lift the suspension. Exactly. Yeah, so the RAV4 is
like that, but some of the other ones do actually have lifted suspensions. So, the Subaru,
Subaru Wildernesses, they have that. Yeah, so again, if we do buy some of these, we will be able
to actually put them through all those tests, right? The avoidance maneuver, see how the speed
changes through that test, the fuel economy, do a more detailed analysis on ride and handling,
and all these things. But when we actually took them off road, right, I mean, which ones stuck
out to you guys? The Wilderness. Yeah, the Subaru, it was the Forester Wilderness. Yeah,
I mean, the Subaru, they have a great all-wheel-drive system. We know that from previous snow testing
stuff we've done and whatnot. I like the trail sport, Honda trail sport, the Passport trail sport.
It also looks really cool. It looks like a green color. Yeah, the orange running lights and
everything. Yeah, it does look nice. They put some nice little touches to it. I mean, they all did
pretty well though. Some of the spots we drove through are pretty muddy and whatnot. Yeah,
yeah. I mean, nobody really struggled at any point, really. No, I mean, we didn't get stuck. We
didn't have to get towed out of mud pits and stuff like that. Right, and it wasn't that aggressive
where we were, but still it was somewhere, but I think just normally drive your regular car. Yeah,
you look at, you're probably seeing some B-roll right now or have been for the last couple minutes,
and the course that you put together is still probably more aggressive than what most of these
would see. Anyway, it's generally like forest roads getting to a trailhead or something like
that. They're not even as intense as what we put them through. And I'm not saying it was crazy. It's
just, you know, but even still, I think what a lot of it is, is confidence, right? How confident do
you feel taking this vehicle through the thing, whether it can, a different vehicle could do it
or not. That's what stood out to me about the Forester so much is that you felt pretty confident
doing it. Yeah, but we took regular versions through too, right? Like the non-off-road
trains of some of these cars. They did it too. too, yeah. They did it too. It speaks
a lot to them. Their all-wheel drive systems are pretty good too, you know, and yeah, they're
regular all-season tires, road going all-season tires, but they're not so bad either. Yeah,
yeah, like we took the Subaru Forester hybrid and I just remember being up on some of the
mudded or rutted muddy areas. It's wet and you're kind of sliding from one side to the other,
and so just when you're in the granite terrain changes, right, but when you're in the wilderness
version, it just felt like you had more grip from the tires. Yeah, you should, right? So it did,
there was some tangible difference there and you just felt like you could kind of
hustle through it a little bit quicker. So, okay, we can hear some of the criticism now,
which is we're not talking enough about the tires, right? Because that's really what this is about,
is the change in tires. A lot of it is. Yeah, I mean, they impact this more than any of the
tire experts. I've never been called that before, you know. Yeah, so a lot of it's the tires, right?
And you mentioned, obviously, some of these tires are actually bigger sizes than what would have
come on this regular version of the car. Yeah, all-terrain tires, off-road tires, we'll just
start with that. Off-road-y tires are usually a little bigger, right? They're a little big,
taller, and luggier, and whatever. And these are mild all-terrain tires, and I say mild,
because a real all-terrain tire, a real aggressive, like a original BF Goodrich all-terrain KO,
like that's like an all-terrain, like a real all-terrain tire. So,
the tires are obnoxiously loud at times, and good on-road abilities are not terrible.
There's not comparable to it. Yeah, but so, and over the last quite a few years, I've seen tire
manufacturers start to make milder versions of all-terrain tires, and they have different names
for them. They call them rugged terrain, and this, that, and the other thing, or they'll call them
on-road all-terrain. Yeah, I've seen that term. I think Tyraq actually classifies them as. Yeah,
they've got a separate, yeah. Yeah, and what that means is they're making these tires like more
roadgoing in terms of performance, but they make them look luggier. They put like the sidewalls
have like zigzags and chunky rubber on them. Yeah, they make them look more aggressive,
but meanwhile the tread itself is less luggy. They sometimes will close the shoulder in,
meaning the tread along the shoulders isn't blocks, broken up blocks, like a normal all-terrain tire.
And what that does is give you more stability in turning and noise. It doesn't, the all-terrain
tires, as they wear, they'll start to chop and they'll wear funny, and then this is why it's super
important to rotate your tires no matter what, all-terrain especially. They'll take weird wear
patterns because now the tread's deeper too, so these lugs are standing on their own, and as they
roll through those contact pads, they start to wear on a weird angle, and they're just,
they're less stable because they're taller, right? Impacts the handling, right? Yeah, it can impact
all those things. Now, from the tire testing we do, replacement tires, so these are OE fitment
tires, so some of these are tuned for these cars, so it's a little different, but in general,
all-terrain tires don't, they do pretty well. Some of the top-rated all-terrains are very close to
some of the higher or best-rated all-season tires. In terms of dry grip, wet grip, handling,
snow traction sometimes, a lot of times are better because they have that deeper tread with,
you know, the more aggressive lugs and whatnot. I wasn't overly surprised to see that. These tires
didn't completely ruin these cars in terms of handling and all that stuff because we did do
some braking and stuff like that to see roughly the trend, and they weren't that far off, and I
something like the top-rated all-terrain tire does pretty well, dry and wet grips, right? And that
top-rated, or one of anyway, is that continental terrain contact, right? And while it could be
tuned for the cars, we did see some of them had that, that model on them, right? Yeah, and that's
been a great tire for a long time, but it's not a hard core off-road tire, and that's why it does
well on road because it's in between, you know? And I don't think any of these really had anything
too hard core on them as far as an all-terrain. No, no, I think most of them were that.
Yeah, the Trail Sport might have been the most aggressive. Yeah, the Trail Sport had a general
on it that was kind of aggressive, but, and that's why you heard it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
With that middle of the noise, I think the biggest detriment, really, this is a noise that you can
get from them. Yeah. If we do test these, we'll find out more, but it's a tough fit with the tires
because they're all different tires on these cars. Yeah. Tires all vary anyway. There's a
compromise and there's a whole range of performance that they could have, so, you know, they're not
going to put something on the car that completely makes it like unsafe or something, right? No,
no, no. Of course, but there is some compromise there. Yeah. I think, and we saw a little bit of
that right now. So, if someone's buying one of these off-road trims, do they need to worry
more about tire rotation than an on-road trim? Personally, I would say you should rotate them
more often if you can, just because of that, because these cars are pretty quiet anyway.
Like, you know, if you have a big Wrangler or whatever, it's just loud anyway, right?
Yeah, no matter what you do. These are, you know, like those R4s are quiet car. The more you rotate
them, that will help with some of that, you know, that wear and that noise. I would rotate
them more personally. And on average, are all-terrain tires going to be more expensive to replace?
A little bit, from what we've seen a tiny bit, but again, that's a replacement market. OE tires,
the tires that come on these vehicles from the factory, they're going to be more expensive anyway,
no matter whether they're the all-season version or the all-seasons are all-terrains,
depending on the version, but there can be a little more expensive, but it's not crazy.
Yeah, yeah. So I guess, would you recommend or maybe not recommend, but would you advise somebody
or steer them clear of one of these if they were interested in, let's say, the, you know,
trail sport version of the CR-V or whatever it might be? What would you tell someone?
No, sorry, I'll go after you. I have a funny story. I mean, I would say after driving all of these,
if you like the way it looks and you're okay losing a few miles per gallon, go for it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough. And you can put up with a little bit of extra noise, but
yeah, it's a little bit, you know, just a little bit or different noise, maybe we'll say.
Yeah, yeah. So I had the, the trail, the passport trail sport, one of my,
and I thought by my sister's house, my sister had Honda Accords and then she had a pat,
she had a pilot back when like the pilot was a smaller car and whatnot. So she's like a little
Honda fan from back in the day. She saw it. She was like, that thing is awesome. What is that?
Like she's actually in the market for like a newer little SUV of some sort. And I'm like,
you know, I showed her and she was like, she loves it. So right now she's actually trying,
she was texting me yesterday. She wants one. She don't find one, but she wants a trail sport.
And I'm like, oh my God, but it does, it looks way cooler. You know, and my, but to that, I'm like,
you know, it's got these tires on it that like you probably don't need because you're not really
going off road, but it looks cool. Yeah. It looks, yeah. It's interesting too, because specifically
with the, the passport, unless you get the base model, they are all geared towards, you know,
they all have trail sport in their name one way or another, right? Different levels of equipment
or whatever. But so that's another part of this too is on average, these cost a little bit more.
Sure. They're not, they're never the base model that they throw all the rain tires on, right?
They're at least somewhere higher in the, the trim range for whatever model you're talking about.
Sorry. In the like fuel economy wise, I mean, I, you know, we didn't test them, but the EPA is a
little less. So you're going to lose a little bit there. It's actually kind of funny because
some of that is actually, some of it's tire related. Some of it's obviously if there's
stuff on the roof and it, because people actually the rolling resistance, rolling resistance wise,
pound for pound, like the same exact all terrain size and all season size and rolling resistance
wise can actually be not that much different at all. But these tires are wider and there's
actually an aerodynamic aspect to tires that can cost effect fuel economy. So that's kind of an
interesting note too. But I don't know. I would tell people, yeah, like if you can deal with a
little bit of loss here or there, but gain the cool, being the cool guy. Yeah. I mean, look,
if you are, you know, take your sister, for example, right? She looking for a new SUV
wants something a little off roady. If she was looking at the passport and her other option was
like, Oh, I might buy a Wrangler or something. She's never going to go off road or something
like that. Disowner. Yeah. Yeah. Here's something where you're giving up way less to get what you
perceive as enough off road capability or visual appeal or whatever. What you perceive as off road
ability. And for most people, it's plenty of off road ability without this off road trim.
But yeah, to have it look cool and think that you can take it off road and to some extent,
you can. Yeah, legitimately. Yeah, absolutely. So keep in mind, I mean, you buy these, the tires
that came on it, they're going to last forever. So you can always do something later on if you
really want to. Right. Well, and to that point, last question on these, can I just put regular
all terrain tires on my normal RAV4? What's that? I didn't buy it at Woodland. You can do whatever
you want. You can. I mean, you can do whatever you want. As long as you satisfy the load and
speed rating, size requirements, all that stuff, the safety stuff. But again, you might compromise
some things. You might get a little more noise. You might get what we just talked about. Yeah.
Yeah. And we don't necessarily know how the manufacturers are tuning stability control and
traction control and stuff for the tire. I mean, they always tune for the tires that are OE on
that vehicle, right? But it's really no different than putting any other aftermarket tire on your
car. That changes. That's the point. Exactly. No matter what type of tire it is. That's a good
point. Yep. So you wouldn't necessarily get some of the off-road modes or other little goodies that
some of these have. But I mean, I think the least off-road of all of them was either the CRV or the
Kia Sportage, right? Whereas tires were the biggest part. And willing to bet you can get a
trail sport badge on Amazon. Definitely. Yeah, or Etsy or something. Cool. All right. So we mentioned
a bunch throughout this that we evaluated these. We got press vehicles, right? We didn't buy them.
So our question for the audience is if you would like to see us buy some of these, right? We could
put them through the full test fuel economy, handling, noise, so on and so forth. Everything
we've talked about, we could put real numbers to it and really figure out what is that true
compromise that you're giving up or not, right? So let us know in the comments what you're thinking.
And if you have some interest in seeing more on these not soft rotors, but off-road trims of
mainstream SUVs, that rolls right off the top. Super easy to remember. All right. Awesome. So
we're going to move on to our audience question and just a reminder that you can send us your
written and video questions to talkingcarsaticloud.com. And we will send you some swag if we use your
question on the show. All right. So we have Ozzy from Los Angeles. He writes in and says,
everyone's concerned about fuel efficiency right now. My 2023 RAV4 Prime came installed with
crossbars. Should I take them off for more efficiency? Does it make that much of a difference?
All right. So Ryan, why don't you get us this, get us started on answering Ozzy's question.
Yeah. Good question. The minute you put anything on the outside of your car,
you're going to take some fuel economy away. Now, these are the, I'm assuming these are the
factory bars that come out. It sounds like it. They're designed to not be like these, you know,
you put aftermarket ones on that are big chunky mounts. Yeah, it might not be. You hear them and
whatnot. So they can affect it. Yeah. If you're not using them, take them off. That's my thing.
If you're not using them, if you're not going to use them, take them off. Right. You're just going
to only help yourself. You might get rid of some noise too. Yeah. There might be a little noise
even though these are coming from the factory, and they probably tune them, make sure they don't
make too much noise, but I would take them off if you're not going to use them. They usually come
off pretty easily, right? Yeah, most cases. Or if you're going to use them, leave them on,
and you might lose a little bit. You know, we've done some testing, but we didn't do testing with
just the bars. We put like bike racks without bikes on them and certain things like that.
And we did notice it takes a little bit of fuel economy away because you're, it's just,
you're pushing wind. It's probably not terrible. Yeah. And you're already starting with a very
fuel efficient car. So even if you take a percent or two off the top of your RAV4 Primac,
you're still getting very good fuel economy. It's not like, you know,
lopping five miles per gallon off your F-150 or something like that in terms of,
when you fuel usage, but yeah. I mean, I, when they do the EPA numbers for this,
I'm sure they don't put, you know, they take the version without a bar on it and make it,
because they're probably at the awareness to all the accessory and all that stuff, right?
Yeah. And I have something to keep in mind with that too is some of these, you know, off-road
trends, they might come with some extra exterior accessories. If it comes from the factory like
that, then that's how it's fuel economy tested, right? So that could contribute a little bit to
that 123 mile per gallon EPA number difference that you see. Yeah, right. Yeah. And
I would say just to that end, there's other things too, right? That, that at least come to mind for
me is not carrying extra weight in the car, right? Like optimizing the way you drive a little,
but if you really are concerned about fuel efficiency, certainly if you have a RAV4 Prime,
make sure you're charging it as much as you can. Yeah. Just to use the electric portion of the
drivetrain there, but we have articles on consumerreports.org that talk all about how to drive in
an efficient way, essentially how to like stretch your fuel tank, right? So go check that out and
you can find stuff about, you know, things on the car and a lot more too. I would say if you,
if you do take them off, let us know. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, start tracking your fuel usage.
Noticeable or not, you know. Yeah. Get a sound meter maybe, or use your tuned ear.
Awesome. So just a reminder, again, send us your questions at TalkingCars at iCloud.com.
And also mention that we now have a donate button on our YouTube channel. We are nonprofits,
so anything helps. So check that out. And we are very much appreciative of that.
But that'll do it for today, so we will see you next time.
About this episode
“Soft rotor” is the hosts’ term for SUV trims that look and feel more off-road without adding hardcore hardware. They contrast these packages with true capability like low-range gearing, and share impressions from press vehicles driven on muddy and rocky terrain in Connecticut. The big question is whether the extra money pays off: they note tradeoffs like higher road noise from all-terrain tires, slightly worse EPA mpg (e.g., RAV4 Woodland 41 to 38), and added drag from exterior accessories. For a RAV4 Prime, they recommend charging as much as possible.
On this episode of Talking Cars, we discuss our recent evaluation of popular rugged SUV trims, sometimes called "soft roader" SUVs—including the Subaru Forester Wilderness, Honda Passport TrailSport, Toyota RAV4 Woodland, Ford Explorer Tremor, and more—to see whether they add real capability or mostly rugged styling. Plus, we answer a viewer's question about whether roof crossbars hurt fuel economy on SUVs like the Toyota RAV4 Prime.
Join CR at https://CR.org/joinviaYT to access our comprehensive ratings for items you use every day. CR is a mission-driven, independent, nonprofit organization.
SHOW NOTES
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00:00 Intro
00:16 Soft Roaders Explained
00:47 What Makes an SUV a "Soft Roader"
01:44 Why CR Doesn't Do Formal Off-Road Ratings
03:56 Building and Driving the Off-Road Evaluation Course
04:56 Vehicles Evaluated
06:13 On-Road Compromises
10:26 Off-Road Impressions
12:44 The Big Role Tires Play
16:28 Should You Buy an Off-Road Trim?
20:06 Can You Add All-Terrain Tires Yourself?
21:14 Should CR Fully Test These Off-Road Trims?
21:58 Audience Question: Do Roof Crossbars Hurt Fuel Economy?
