Automotive legend Ken Gross at the Chattanooga Motorcar Festival

Hey everybody from Chattanooga, Tennessee, I'm Jay Ward.

And I'm Wayne Carini, and this is Talking Classic Cars.

Our guest today is going to be one of our finest friends that we have, Mr. Ken Gross.

Ken has so many things, he's a great hot rodder, great friend, and he curates so many great

shows all over the country for museums, for automobile events like this Chattanooga Motor

Car Festival.

And so Ken, welcome.

Good morning, and thanks very much.

Yeah.

Glad to be here.

Great to have you with us.

So, you curate so many great shows, but this one really is special to you.

Tell us why.

Well, it is because all the proceeds for this event go to CHI Memorial in Chattanooga,

and they do world-class research on AIDS and stroke and Parkinson's.

So that's what really got me interested, and I wasn't going to take on another car

show, and Byron DeFour made a very convincing case, and I'm in.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I've been here since the beginning because of you.

Ken has asked me to come every year, and it's an honor to be here, to be with

you and Byron and doing all the things that we normally do here, but I got to tell you,

this year you've really knocked it out of the park.

We got some great cars.

We suffer a little bit from what I call show fatigue.

In our placement in October, there are already a lot of events.

So you can talk to collectors and they say, no, I don't know, I don't know,

but we're getting, developing a reputation, people like the cause, and I'm very happy

with the field this year.

We thrilled particularly to see some of the 32, 4-inch, because that's a favor of both

of all of us.

Yeah.

It would be great maybe next year to even get that, expand that a little bit more, you

know.

But you've done a good job.

I'll tell you, and the classics are just spectacular.

You've got some really great classics this year.

Yeah.

This would be a great place for rolling bones display next year.

That it would.

I'd love to do that.

We had them at Greenwich a few years ago.

We had them at Amelia Island.

People love seeing those cars.

I was with a group of them in the England and blew the brits away.

Yeah.

And even having a 32 display or maybe, you know, of cars from 1932 to 36 or 9 or 40,

something like that, and get some of the big guys from the West Coast in, you know,

get Bruce.

Yeah.

Bruce Meyer.

It really would be fun.

It's hard to get those folks, you know, how expensive it is to transport cars these

days.

The show develops enough of a reputation.

Perhaps they'll come anywhere.

That's right.

And they did come to Amelia.

Last year, I brought my own roadster there, and we had a number of West Coast cars.

People are not always expecting to see hot rods at a Concord, Elegance, and we started

that at Pebble Beach in 1997 against some, I'm not going to say objections, I'm

going to say ODB was the comment from some people.

But no one had to die to get those cars on the field.

Once they did, it was really exciting.

They took off.

It was unbelievable.

And of course, you got great collectors like Ross Meyer, Bruce Meyer, I mean, you got great

...

Both the Meyers.

Yeah.

Both Meyers.

Yeah.

No relation to each other, but both have that passion for the automobile.

They're actually the two best collectors of historic hot rods, and they happen

to be on East Nose.

You know, Boyertown, PA, and Beverly Hills, California, and you have literally between

those two and the Peterson, you've got pretty much the criminal background of

the hot rod world.

I think just talking hot rods for a minute, one thing that you and I have talked about

in the past is how important they are to American car culture.

People really understand that post-war America, you know, the hot rodder was taking

influence from Europe and influence from aircraft, and really engineering and designing

these cars that were faster than what Detroit could build at the time.

And more stylish if you extended arm to the custom people.

So much so that in the early 50s and the Ford Rotunda, Ford Motor Company invited

Windfield and Barris and all these guys to come and show what they did, and you start

looking at 57 Chevrolet's, you start thinking, oh, they went paying attention.

That's right.

Yeah.

Flush door handles or hidden door handles, and lowering the cars down, sectioning

the bodies.

We saw this stuff happen by 1960, Detroit took those notes.

And you know, the Motorama cars, that showed right there that they were paying

attention, you know, with General Motors taking the tour around the world and showing

people their new designs, and of course the designers.

Back in the, and I own a Studevaker, 53 Studevaker, Starliner Coupe, and you come out of the

war era, and all of a sudden now they need a transportation, but these cars were boxes.

They were just basic transportation automobiles.

You figure what a Dodge looked like, a Ford, a Chevrolet from 1950, 51 and 52.

They were literally holdovers from before the war that had been invicting massage.

Exactly, exactly.

And all comes this Studevaker, with Raymond Lowey and all these great designers, and the

cars moving, going 100 miles an hour standing still by the looks of it, by the way of rate

of windshield back, and all the fillers.

And that really started that design, all of a sudden people were paying attention to

design more and more rather than functionality.

Well, you had Virgil Exner at Chrysler, who was brought in to end the boxy era.

Yeah.

And he really, he really did that.

And interesting you mentioned, Studevaker Coupes, the Hot Rodgers grabbed those, chopped

the top, stuck them in Bonneville, they were slippery cars.

And they could set some fast times.

Yeah, well, luckily, the chop on my top is not there.

It's all stock, 7,000 mile car.

That's right.

The survivor.

He brought that to Greenwich earlier this year.

I did, yeah.

I brought it to Pebble a few years ago.

And to Savoy.

Savoy, it's been down there all because Ken, I usually don't let that car out of

my sight.

And Ken asked me and it was a great experience going down another great thing, too.

We should maybe talk about his museum.

So I'd like to know more about the Savoy because you had a huge part in curing that

collection and you've been there as well.

And a lot of people so far have not heard about the Savoy, it's still fairly new.

It is.

It's in Cartersville, Georgia.

It's now almost through its second year, they've had nearly 200,000 visitors.

It's part of a four-museum chain, which include the Booth Museum of Western Heart, the Talus

Science Museum, the local Bartow County Museum.

They know museums, these guys.

This is an 85,000 square foot facility and there are five galleries.

We change cars every four months, one of the gallery changers.

People love going there.

They've just started their own outdoor car shows.

So I really recommended to people, if they're anywhere in the Atlanta area, it's north

of Atlanta, about 50 minutes.

Is there a focus on anything in the collection?

No, not really.

The main gallery, which it just changes often, we have American, significant American cars,

but not just classics.

They can be special interest cars.

They can even be pickups and so forth.

But we do like to rotate the other galleries.

We've had classic cars, we've had deco cars, we've had a great display of fins.

And all the cars were driven in, so the back ends were the focus of what you saw when you

walked in.

So a great way of displaying too, it's a thought process.

And the wonderful people that work there and are part of it, they're part of why

it's so successful too.

You did another show down in Florida last year.

Was it Boca Raton?

It was in Vero Beach.

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit about that.

What were we called?

That was Rolling Sculpture and they were Art Deco American and European cars.

We had 22 cars and motorcycles at Vero.

Population of Vero Beach is about 20,000 people in the winter.

We had 44,000 visitors in two and a half months.

They sold the catalog out in the last two months.

So we brought twice the population of Vero in to see these cars.

It's the biggest exhibit in terms of attendance they'd ever had.

And they were dumbfounded that such a thing could happen.

I love displaying cars in fine art museums because we're talking many times.

I'm sure the cars, since he has come, we get a lot of people who never thought of an

automobile as rolling sculpture, as art, on wheels.

Yeah.

And that's one of the things we want our listeners to understand is that what Ken's talking

about is that you go to a regular art museum and there's beautiful art museums.

What Ken's doing is displaying automobiles in that museum setting of a really high-end

regular museum where paintings and sculptures are and now there's cars involved with

that.

Art pieces of sculpture.

They are art.

One of the fun things that you know, it's not always apparent, but most of these buildings

were never designed to have automobiles.

So we are taking doors off the museum.

We're taking bumpers off cars to squeeze them into elevators.

A lot of trickery so that when people walk into the gallery, they're not only seeing

something they've never seen before, they're wondering, how in the world do we get

it in there?

Yeah.

That's pretty cool.

How you're doing it here in Chattanooga, sort of putting all these cars together, calling

people and you're one of the guys, when you get a call from Ken Gross and he says, can

you bring, and that's all he's got to say, bring, and you don't have to get any further.

You just say, yes, Ken, what do you need?

Your roll index is pretty formidable.

Well, I'm very fortunate.

I've judged in Pebble Beach for 32 years.

I was director of the Peterson.

I got to know a lot of people and I can tell you that car enthusiasts and owners are very

happy to loan you a car from museum.

It's a different dimension for them.

It's not like a concord delinquent.

Everybody's a winner.

Probably you'll be in a catalog.

So it's an easier ask, if you will, than maybe some of these concours.

And it's thrilling to finally get in there.

I get involved with the lighting, the placement.

I write the catalogs, I do all the didactics, and there's that magic moment where it's all

there.

It's in the building.

You say, wow.

It's so exciting.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

We were talking about the Savoy Museum and we're going to be down there with you for

a couple of things coming up in January.

We're going to be down there with Wayne Cady, one of the great designers at General

Motors.

GM has had a number of folk.

Cady knows the major players, Harley Earls and Chuck Jordan, and Bill Mitchell, of course.

But behind the scenes are these guys who really did the designs, and Wayne is one of those

people, very understated, talented man, and in those days, I mean, with all the CAD

work today, the computer does a lot of the work for you, but in those days, normally

did they have to design the cars, they had to be artists, and they had to do renderings

with people in the backgrounds and so forth to help sell the idea to the Bill

Mitchell's and so forth, and Wayne is one of those guys.

He's the best at that, you know, with people in the background and buildings and all the

things and landscapes, but not only is he a great designer, he's just a great artist.

It's not unlike what we do at our films at Dixar, you know, people think, oh, the

director made all this stuff, but they're these very talented people that design the

characters and the environments, you know, the guy who designed Buzz Light here,

Paulie is a friend of mine, he did fine lighting McLean as well, you know, and so to

be an artist at Dixar, but you're right, the stuff on the screen, oh, the whole

studio made that, they don't realize, but he's really talented people that are

kind of unsung heroes of the design process.

Yeah, and then, you know, what's interesting is that you've invited me

down to the Savoy for the museum conference, and people don't understand

that, we have some great automobile museums in this country, and every time

we lose one, you say like the two-flow automobile, you say, oh boy,

we're on a decline, but every time you lose one, two more seem to pop up.

Oh, look.

And so we've got a great museum now in Maine, you know, above Gunkwood,

and a Rundle, I think it is, and so many other museums that, so they're

going to have a conference at the Savoy.

Right, we'll have the National Association of Automobile Museums, the NAM

conference, last year it was at the Revs Institute in Naples, Florida,

and it's a wonderful opportunity for these museum people to kind of compare

notes, try to understand, one person is solving your problem, you need to

know what they're doing, when they're not direct competitors, per se, so we can

all learn from one another, and interchange cars too, I borrowed a

lot of cars from museums, and even here today we've got cars from

several, several museums, it helps publicize the museum and lets people

see cars they haven't, haven't yet seen, it's exciting.

Frankly, I want to see some of these cars rolling and moving, so we have

the Packard Predictor from the Student Review Museum here, they haven't

run it in years, I said, you can bring it if it runs, and they said,

we'll get it running, so I'm going to hear that and see it today.

I was out on the field early this morning at about 6.30, and I

walked over and I put my hand on the hood and it was warm, so it does run.

That's cool.

I said to myself, I wonder if they pushed it here, but they did

get it running.

They promised it would run, so we'll have to see it.

And then we've got one other display coming up, it's a

Subway movie cars.

Jay's going to help us with that and hopefully get the Lightning

McQueen out of the NASCAR.

That's what we're going to try and do.

We're going to try and fry it out of there again.

Not easy to do, but it's really great.

You know, an important thing for me, and I want to ask you about this,

is how do we get a younger generation involved in the car world?

Because all of us are now adults, we're not young people anymore.

Very kind.

Yeah, I'm trying to say it as diplomatically as possible, but we

need a younger generation, we need people under 30 to care about

what we're doing and to care about these cars.

What do you think we could do better?

How do you think we'd get more people under 30 involved and

engaged in both the collecting but also the judging and this

whole automobile world?

I think there's so much for it here that's exciting.

Well, years ago when my youngest son was starting to

show an interest in cars, I asked Joe Oldham, what that time

was the editor of Popular Mechanics, and who had written

years ago for all the superstock magazines.

And I said, your Scott and your Steve have become

car enthusiasts.

What did you do?

How did you make that apple?

And then this funny Brooklyn accent, he said,

Immersion, take them everywhere, take them to the

show, put them in the car.

And really that's the way to do it.

I think you've got to invite them, invite them to

learn how to judge.

Years ago, when Terry Eric was the head of Heming's Motor

News, his slogan was, take a kid to a car show.

That's right.

So that was in Heming's all the time, that big page out.

That's really what you do.

I mean, my first experience was my neighbor at an MGTC.

I was standing in a sort of gobsmack looking at this

car, amazed that the steering wheel was on the long

side, and Mr. Durkey said, get in.

I said, I can get in?

He said, yes.

And the next thing I knew, we were driving down Forrest

Avenue, and I was sitting behind the non-steering wheel

because I was on the one for an 11-year-old kid.

It was absolutely fabulous.

And that's really the key one.

We have so many families come to our shop and our

showroom, and we always make sure the kids get in one

or two of the cars, and they go, really?

You don't even mind if they touch the car?

He said to the car, come on.

Touch it, feel it.

We don't want you to take an eraser or a magic marker,

draw on it, but be come involved, start it up.

And once you've done that, it sets a spark off.

And it may not evolve right away, but one day that spark

will really set the fire, and then it's off to the races.

Well, we're fortunate because we grew up in a generation.

We're all different ages, but we all grew up in a

generation when cars were beautiful objects.

And modern cars are utilitarian, and they're great

because they're reliable and fast, and they do things

better than a computer can do, but they don't have

that same level of fizz, a lot of them, unless you

get into supercars.

So finding kids to get engaged and excited about

classic cars, I think is really a great

thing to do as well.

Well, what I've done is, when my grandson was five

years old, I asked him, I said, what do you want

for pop-up today more than anything in the world?

He said, I want to go for a ride in a piercero.

We have a 16 piercero, so I take him for a ride.

He says, pop-up, I love this car.

This is my favorite car in the world.

And we have Ferraris and Mustangs and all these

other cars, and he wanted to go for a ride in that car.

So while we were out, he told me that.

I said, well, happy birthday, Connor, it's your car.

And I gave him the piercero at age five.

And now he's immersed.

I mean, that's it.

He's hooked for life because I gave him this car

and we take it to different car shows.

He gets invited now with a letter from people

to bring his car to a show.

Thanks, fabulous.

It's unbelievable.

That's his car.

And he wanted trophies.

First trophy, wanted a local car event,

and he carries that trophy in his overnight bag

when he comes to visit us.

He takes it, he puts it up on the bureau.

He's so proud of that, you know?

And so I think that was my way of doing it,

but there's so many other different ways.

And listen, this Concordia Lemon certainly helps too.

The 30 under 30 classes that are happening at shows.

So we're all trying, that's for sure.

McPherson College is another good example.

So we're trying and I think we're gonna be successful.

But, and we have to give them a chance.

You know, it wasn't like us where all of a sudden

we turned 16 and it was instantaneous to us

because we'd been dreaming of cars all our lives.

It takes sometimes till they're 25 or 30 years old,

but they'll come around.

Yeah, that's for sure.

Well, if you think about it,

you've got all these listeners out there

and maybe the message is,

think about some young person you know,

boy or girl, who might be interested in cars

and do that for them.

Show them your car, take them for a ride in your car.

Take them to a car shop.

We'll increase the population if you all do that.

That's right, all right.

Okay, where are we gonna see an act?

Where?

At the Hilton Head Concord.

I'll see you there.

And we'll go to SEMA.

We wouldn't miss the SEMA show.

Yeah, I'll see you there.

Fortrish has to go to Apex.

She says, that's the stake side of the business

and I get to go to SEMA, which is the sizzle.

So, yes, we'll be doing that.

And then the Concord year kind of rolls to an end

and maybe blessedly so because we've all gone

to a dozen of war events all year long,

but come December we wish for it to start again

and it starts again with Cavalino

and on a retro bail and on a new.

Yeah, yeah, well, that's true, you know,

when the auction season starts,

I'll be at Kassemi this year, then going to Scottsdale,

then in Retchmobile.

So I get between Thanksgiving and Christmas off

and then it all starts all over again.

Off and go.

But no complaints.

No, no complaints at all.

We love what we do, we love our friends.

Love the people in the car world.

That's right, that's right.

Well, and the funny thing is you're actually seeing,

we're actually seeing one other more

than we perhaps see even our neighbors.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, thanks Ken for spending a few minutes with us.

It's always a pleasure to be with you

and learn from your knowledge.

Oh, thank you both.

Yeah, see you on the road.

Yep.

Great.

Automotive legend Ken Gross at the Chattanooga Motorcar Festival

About this episode

hot rods

custom cars

sectioning the bodies

flush door handles

hidden door handles

Motorama cars

Starliner Studevaker Starliner

Rolling Sculpture

art museums displaying automobiles

concours

General Motors

CAD work

car renderings

National Association of Automobile Museums (NAM)

NASCAR

MG TC

Pierce-Arrow Model 16

Ford Mustang

Concordia Lemon

30 under 30 classes

McPherson College

SEMA show

Apex

Cavalino

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