CarCast+Edmunds - Talking Rivian R2, autonomous cars and more with Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe
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Car
Toyota Tacoma
The Toyota Tacoma is a pickup truck from Toyota. People like it because it’s tough and can handle rough roads, not just city streets.
Car
Toyota Grand Highlander
The Toyota Grand Highlander is a bigger Toyota SUV with room for families. It’s meant for carrying kids and gear comfortably.
Company
Zip Recruiter
ZipRecruiter is a website that helps companies hire people. It’s mentioned here because this part of the podcast is an advertisement.
Car
Rivian R2
Company
Rivian
Rivian is an EV manufacturer known for building electric trucks and SUVs, with a strong focus on software, driver-assistance features, and adventure-oriented design. In this episode, Rivian’s CEO is interviewed, so the brand context matters for understanding the company’s strategy.
Company
bioproteintech.com
They’re reading an ad for a company called Bioproteintech. The link is just where you’d go to sign up for the offer they mention.
Car
iX3 (G08)
The iX3 is an electric SUV from BMW. It uses electricity to drive instead of gasoline. In the podcast, it’s mentioned because it shows BMW’s newer design direction for its electric vehicles.
Car
BMW i3
The i3 is a small electric car made by BMW. It runs on electricity and was one of BMW’s earlier EV models. The podcast mentions it because it’s part of the story of how BMW’s electric cars have developed over time.
Term
kidney grills
BMW’s “kidney grills” are the brand’s recognizable front grille openings. They’re talking about how that bold front look can work better on some car shapes than others.
Term
steering wheel
The steering wheel is what you use to turn the car. Here, they’re talking about a steering wheel design that looks unusual compared to most cars.
Term
head up display system
A head-up display shows important info on the windshield. The idea is you can see speed or warnings without looking down at the screen.
Brand
Lincoln
Lincoln is a luxury car brand. The host is comparing how Lincoln uses screens on the dashboard to what this other car is doing.
Concept
aerodynamics
Aerodynamics is how air resistance affects a car’s efficiency, especially at highway speeds. Improving aerodynamic design can increase EV range without changing the battery itself, which is why the speaker mentions it alongside software improvements.
Term
frunk
A frunk is like a trunk, but in the front of the car. On many electric cars it’s there because there’s no engine up front, so you can store small stuff like cables.
Concept
stop sale
A stop sale means the automaker tells dealers not to sell certain cars right now. It’s usually because there’s a safety problem that needs to be fixed.
Concept
recall
A recall means the manufacturer will fix the problem on affected cars. Owners are usually notified and can get the repair done through their dealer.
Car
Kia Telluride
The Kia Telluride is a family SUV with three rows. In this episode, it’s brought up because they were comparing it to another similar SUV during a test.
Car
Hyundai Palisade
The Hyundai Palisade is another family SUV with three rows. They mention it in the same breath as the Telluride because they were testing and comparing the two.
Car
Rivian R2
The Rivian R2 is an upcoming electric SUV from Rivian. It’s the newer model they were promoting at a big event (SXSW) during this conversation.
Car
Tesla Model Y
The Tesla Model Y is one of the most popular electric SUVs. Rivian is basically saying, “We’re in the same general category,” but R2 is trying to appeal to different buyers.
Concept
0 to 60
“0 to 60” is how quickly a car can go from standing still to 60 mph. Faster times usually mean the car feels more responsive.
Term
transform based encoding
This is a type of computer-learning method. The idea is to help the self-driving system understand driving data better and learn patterns that transfer to new situations.
Term
neural nets
Neural nets are computer models that learn from lots of examples. For self-driving, they help the car interpret what’s happening on the road.
Term
foundation models
A foundation model is a big AI system trained broadly, then used for specific problems. Here, they’re saying it can help self-driving systems learn and adapt better.
Term
Tesla FSD
Tesla FSD is Tesla’s self-driving software package. It’s meant to automate more driving tasks over time, using cameras and other sensors.
Concept
AI based
AI-based means the car uses learning software to make decisions, not just fixed rules. They’re saying this kind of approach can help the system get better faster and handle more situations.
Concept
EVs
EVs are cars powered by electricity instead of gasoline. They’re talking about why fewer people are buying them than expected.
Concept
electrification
Electrification means moving away from gas engines toward electric motors. They’re saying companies felt forced to do it, and the results weren’t as profitable as hoped.
Concept
ICE
ICE stands for internal combustion engine, meaning gas/diesel vehicles. The speaker contrasts EV plans with the option companies have to “go back to ICE” if EV economics and scale don’t pencil out.
Concept
charging deserts
“Charging deserts” are regions with limited or unreliable public charging coverage, making EV travel harder. The speaker cites specific places to illustrate where the network still needs improvement.
Concept
AI
AI is software that can learn patterns and make decisions. In cars and robots, it helps systems “understand” the world and choose what to do next.
Brand
Edmunds
Edmunds is a car review and shopping website. The speaker is using it to describe how reviewers typically compare cars using things like efficiency and how lively they feel.
Concept
RAV4 versus CR-V
RAV4 and CR-V are two of the most popular mainstream compact SUVs, commonly used as direct comparison models in reviews. The speaker uses them to explain how Edmunds-style evaluations typically compare powertrains, fuel economy, and driving feel.
Concept
autonomy
Autonomy means the car can do more of the driving on its own. Instead of you constantly steering and watching, the car handles more of the work.
Term
cameras
Cameras help the car “see” the road. They can recognize things like lanes and other vehicles so the car can make safer decisions.
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Hello, welcome to the Edmonds Car Cast podcast.
Hi, I'm Matt the Motor Ritter, D'Andre here with Alistair Weaver.
How are you doing?
I'm all right, thanks Matt.
Slightly better mood than it was last Friday when we recorded the last show.
I've had a bit of trail meets this morning, things are going well.
My dogs are going nuts today.
So, you guys are going to hear them in the background.
People are just like a maintenance crew or something down the hall.
And they do not approve of this maintenance being done on their time.
They do not approve of it.
So, you're probably going to hear them in the background.
We've got some interesting stuff to talk about today.
We talked quite a bit about the Rivian R2 last week.
But this week, we have an interview with their CEO and a few other things to get into today.
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You've been doing it.
You're doing it.
Are you back on it now?
Yeah, I'm back on it now after my operation.
And a little bit this morning, you've got to wait you nine minutes
before you have your coffee, which, you know.
It's in a little while and it's small.
And then you pour it under your tongue, wait 90 seconds.
And then, yeah, don't eat or drink for nine minutes.
And I was talking to Goldberg about it.
He's trying it too.
And I said, he's like, why is it nine minutes?
And I said, I think if they said 10 minutes,
you would just round off to the closest whenever you want it.
Nine minutes seems so specific.
So now you're literally just watching a stopwatch.
Like if you're, you know, I think nine minutes
makes get your attention more.
I think nine minutes sounds like there's some sort of science behind it.
10 minutes is just loud.
I'll give it a few minutes, you'll be fine.
Yeah, right, exactly that.
But anyway, all right.
So we're, before we get to the interview,
let's, let's talk about some of the news with BMW.
Yeah, I mean, actually quite a, yeah, quite an interesting week.
I mean, this has been like a long tease with the Neuer class,
which was the kind of teasing up this new design language for BMW.
We saw it with the IX3.
And now we're seeing it with the, with the I3,
which also points to, you know, what the three series
when the gas cars come along will, will also look like.
It's kind of interesting how, you know, S, taking a sedan body like,
body design language and then applying it to an SUV or vice versa is always very difficult.
I mean, Porsche struggled for years to get the Cayenne right.
I actually think this kind of very sort of sharp nose front end
with the very prominent crit kidney grills works better on the sedan than it does on the SUV.
Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a handsome looking car.
And inside it's got that same vibe as the IX3, a lot of shared componentry,
which includes like a big sort of trapezoidal screen, which is kind of canted at an angle.
And then there's pretty eccentric steering wheel,
which I'm sure they've done as a big talking point.
And I suspect more steering wheels are on their way.
But if you're not watching on YouTube, it sort of has a north south spoke.
So a spoke that runs kind of from the top of the steering wheel to the bottom,
and then nothing on the side.
So you think about it, most steering wheels, maybe you don't even think about this,
but most steering wheels have a spoke running east west, this runs north south.
So it's a bit eccentric, but at least they're trying something.
You know, you've got, you've got the steering wheel, you've got this big screen in the center,
and then a much smaller sort of, I don't know how many inches high it is,
maybe three or four inches high that runs all the way along the top of the dashboard,
in a similar vein to what you might expect from a head up display system.
But that's all your primary information.
So it's an interesting layout, but I haven't been hands on with it yet.
This was actually an event we went to in Germany.
But I think it looks, I think it looks good.
Yeah. So the main screen in the middle, but up along the dash,
it's kind of like what Lincoln is doing, right?
But I think Lincoln does it all with one big screen instead of two screens.
But they're doing sort of the smaller version up along the windshield,
the base of the windshield for your speedometer and things like that,
and then has the big infotainment screen.
Interesting. So, you know, I'm looking at this main picture of the i3,
and you're saying sort of the exterior design language.
Remind me what car this is. I'm thinking of an Alfa Romeo, of Julia, of fairly recent,
but not necessarily here in this country.
There was an Alfa Romeo design that you're probably more familiar with,
and I have to think of, if it, I don't think Julia, I don't think,
there was another one maybe in the 90s that had kind of...
I don't think go back to the 90s and be Alfa 75, Alfa 155?
That was a beautiful car. They won 55.
Then they had the 166, which was, looked like it was crying a little bit at the front end.
That was a much bigger one, but the 155, so 155 sold over here.
I think that was a beautiful, that was a beautiful looking car.
That was actually, that was actually when I last,
sort of genuinely, I think genuinely good fun Alphas.
I like, I remember driving that car a lot when I first started in the industry.
That was a cool thing. Yeah, I mean, it's similar vibe in a way.
If you think about it, BMW has the kidney, Alfa has a grille that's not so dissimilar.
That was, actually, that's, no, that's the wrong 155, mate.
It's, I was at 156, maybe it's 156, try 156.
If you're not watching on YouTube, this is really boring for you. There you go.
156, this was an Alfa from the late 90s, and they did a TTA version.
I remember going to Scotland to drive that. That was a cool car and it had a,
you had to put the license plate, because basically they had the Alfa grille in the
center of the car. They had to put the license plate cantoned over to the side,
which never quite looked right. But it was a, yeah, it was a cool car both inside and out.
And I think the BMW, you know, is trying to keep that sporty vibe.
This is the i3. They're launching it as the electric, which will be big news in Europe,
not so much over here. It's interesting because the three series, if you think about BMW,
the three series is BMW. I mean, that was the car that kind of really brought them to attention.
In Europe, it's always been the default small sports sedan. For Mercedes, it's the E-Class,
for BMW, it's the three series. Of course, in America now, everybody's buying the SUVs.
So, I mean, we're just looking at the design of this new i3, but the specs on it are interesting
as well, because, you know, not a very big car, but they're saying a range of up to 440 miles,
potentially. That's what they're trying to target here. But we don't exactly know how
they're doing that. Are we seeing some advancements in battery technology that others aren't seeing
yet? Because batteries have really just been like, sure, you're trying to make them more efficient,
but the current battery technology seems kind of stifling when it comes to that until we get to
like, you know, a solid state battery or something else.
That's right. Interesting. We're going to go and talk about the Rivian interview,
but I was chatting to their engineering teams down in Texas last week, and there isn't like
a seismic breakthrough. Everybody's talking about solid state batteries as being this,
hate the expression, but this massive sort of game changer. And I think there's two things that
need to improve. The charging speed, can you smash more electrons in in less time?
And then can you have a smaller, lighter battery that goes further? And it needs that kind of
big seismic shift in battery technology. So, what they're doing at the moment is really
iterating it and evolving it. So, they're getting better at aerodynamics, they're getting better
at the software to actually manage the battery. But I think what BMW is trying to avoid is the
GM route where you just stick a massive battery in because if you do that, the cost goes up,
the weight goes up, you know, and it's kind of bad all around. So, they're just, I think they're
just getting better at using the technology that they have. But, you know, we're a little bit away
from that kind of next big shift to solid state or something similar.
Yeah. You know, looking at the detail shots, it's a nice looking car.
Yeah. And I think BMW has been criticized in recent years for trying to have this kind of,
you know, extrovert distinctive design. This is a new generation of design. This is them stepping
away from what they've done before on things like the IX. This, you know, every BMW in the
going forwards will take its cues from the IX3 and from this three series.
Interestingly, pictures of the new X5, the larger one leaked in the past week and, you know, not
unsurprisingly, they look a lot like this. So, this is what BMWs will look like going forwards.
And I haven't seen it in the metal yet. I'm told from the, you know, the team are saying that,
actually, it looks even better in real life than it does in pictures. But I think it looks pretty
good in pictures. Yeah. Yeah, it does a little, a little frunk. A little frunk. Yeah. Yeah,
it's got a little frunk, more like a storage bin in the front. But, you know, useful, you know, like
looking at the photos, you know, you can throw your portable charger cables, things like that
in there. That's that's good. Yeah, you know, funny in one of the photos looked like the hood
was peaked in the middle, but it actually comes down in the middle. Yeah, to accentuate those
kind of interesting headlights. And I think what's feeding a lot of this is the headlight
technology has got so good now that you can all have with all these LEDs. You know, you're not
beholden to having the kind of spotlights that you were in the past. So, you know, what this is,
is a kind of final move away from BMWs of old, where you had, you know, your round headlights.
And then inside, you remember, there's like classic 80s dials, the beautiful analog dials
that they used to have. You know, all of that is all of that is gone now, which is kind of a shame,
but you know, it's progress. Yeah, the headlights have gotten
so small. Like now we're just I think here's the problem with with some of the design issues with
it is is we have the technology to make it small. So now designers are going a step further going,
let's make it as tiny and squinty as possible because we can, right? And it doesn't necessarily
always translate into a good design. On some cars it does, but in some cars it's it's it's a little
weird. I agree. And I think this is also what's happened with with, you know, body styling that
now they've got better at being able to, you know, manufacture more complex shapes. All the designs
go great. Let's, you know, let's put a few more slashes and dashes and a few more creases and
everything else and some of the elegance has gone. But yeah, I three, I think it's a, you know,
I think we're going to see it in this, you know, we're going to see it as an electric car, but
in the same way that they've done with the five series, we'll see it as a gas car and a hybrid
and probably a plug in hybrid as well. Mercedes is going down this route BMW is going down this
route. Let's create one platform and then offer lots of different options.
Yeah. So there's a lot, a lot that they have in store for this platform, for this three series
platform. Yeah. And this is the don't screw it up car. I mean, the X3 and the three series.
Yeah. That's the betting the company don't screw that one up. Those are the money makers for sure.
Seven series. And you know, you get the seven series a bit, you know, get the seven series
a bit wrong. It's not going to kill the company. Three series X3. That is, that is the cash cow.
One other thing that popped up recently, and this is just more of a public service announcement,
I guess, than anything else. There was an issue with the Hyundai Palisade and there's a stop sale.
Stop sale is a serious thing to take a look at. That's right. I mean, it seems to be a
actually a tragic, tragic accident with the third row of seats where I believe a child was
actually trapped in the third row seats. And so they've they've done a stop sale. This actually
applies to the top two trims, the limited and the calligraphy. If you go to Edmunds.com slash news,
we've got a story on it. I mean, it's obviously a horrible situation that Hyundai is now looking
into and, you know, trying to put a fix in place. So they're going to do they've done a stop sale,
but they will also do a recall. So if you have a Palisade limited, this is the 2026 Palisade
limited or calligraphy. That's the one with the powered third row of seats. Then then you should
contact your dealer immediately. It doesn't impact lesser trim models, which have manual,
manual, second and third rows. So it's only relates those top two trims. But I believe that the
majority, as is typical, when a vehicle is brand new, I think a lot of the vehicles that have been
sold so far tend to be in those higher trim levels. So we actually launched it. Sorry about you.
Yeah, I was going to say, so any anyone that's on a dealer lot right now or is in production,
everything is going to be held by the dealers and by the manufacturer until they have the fix.
And then anyone who has this vehicle can take it into the dealer or make make an appointment,
figure out what the fix is going to be. Do we know if the fix is already available yet?
I believe it's not. I mean, obviously, it's a situation that's changing all the time.
We have this new story up on the site and as more we get more information, we'll keep up,
we'll keep updating it. So I think the best thing to do because it's obviously, you know,
a complex technical and legal issue is just if you've got one, contact the dealer and then I'll
give you the definitive word. In the meantime, try not to use the third row, I guess.
Well, I think it's to do with the, yeah, it's to do with the switching. I think the safest thing is
to just talk to your dealer and figure it out from, figure it out. Because we, yeah, we actually,
the Telluride came out this week and we were running a test that Telluride and the Palisade.
And so we, you know, obviously added these disclaimers to all the content and maybe that's
a, you know, we can talk about the Telluride perhaps another week, but yeah, it's a tough
situation and I'm sure there's an awful lot of clever people working extra hours to try and
come up with the best solution. Yeah. Okay. Now go into the interview with Rivian. Do you want to
set that up a little bit and then we'll cut to that interview and then we'll chat a little bit
about it. Sure. So RJ Scurringe is the CEO of Rivian and he founded the company. He's, I believe,
still has veto rights on every decision that the company makes. So he is kind of, if you think Elon
Musk, maybe without some of the controversy or most of the controversy, then he is, if you think
he is Elon in Rivian land, really nice, very personable, very friendly guy in, you know, my
experience. And, you know, I thought it was a really interesting conversation. We sat down in
South by Southwest where they were launching the R2 and had about a 20 minute chat, really not just
about the R2, but as you'll hear about the state of the EV market, what's coming up for Rivian
autonomy and everything else. He speaks, as you'd expect, he speaks really well. And I think he's
got a lot of interesting insight. Before we get to that, March Madness is heating up and NBA is
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states. Gambling problem, call 1-800-CAMBLER. RJ, firstly, thank you for joining us on the
on the CarCast podcast. It's a delight to be here. It's a delight to be here at the launch of the R2.
Maybe we should start with the reason we're all here. I know this has been a long gestation period,
but you must be excited to finally get the production car out here.
Yeah, it's been a journey since we showed the car almost exactly two years ago.
And we said we're going to launch it early part of 2026 and here we are. But yeah, the car's,
I think, better than what we showed and I've spent a lot of time and it's dynamically, I think,
it's really a compelling product. And from a mindset perspective, obviously R1-T and R1-S
were pitched at a higher price point. This is bringing you not quite the mass market,
perhaps the upper mass market. Is it quite a big mind shift for the company to think about that
kind of volume and that kind of customer? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, the average price of
new car in the United States is around $50,000. The R2 starts at $45,000. We're launching with
something that's at like $57,508. And so we're right in the thick of the average buyer in the
United States. And so it's not a surprise to us. So we've been planning for this for a while. So
that means getting our distribution network ready, our service network ready, of course,
getting the supply chain and production systems ready. The first production plant we'll produce
this in Illinois, our existing plant, and then we're adding a lot more capacity in Georgia.
We'll add another $400,000 of capacity. And of course, that's for R2 and then
variants of the R2 and its platform, one of which we've shown, which is R3.
But there's even, maybe you can imagine, there's a few other things we're thinking about,
between R2 and R3 that, you know, we showed R3X, so we just, we have shown one other thing as well.
But, you know, we're incredibly bullish on the platform. And we think the product is a great
way to launch it with R2. Sure. I mean, it's interesting sitting here this week. Obviously,
Honda came out with the news yesterday cancelling their three zero EVs. I think that's a
$16 billion right now. And I know there's a sort of tracker for how much people have written down.
I think it's like over $70 billion now across the US. It's pretty wild. And does that, when you
look at that, I mean, a lot of people say this is a tough time to launch an EV in the US.
So, I think there's a lot, there's a lot in that question. So, I think for the health of
the Western auto industry, it's unfortunate to see so many companies step away from electrification.
But, undeniably, it is a good thing for Rivian from a competitive landscape point of view.
There's going to be, there's already in the case of the United States, there's so few highly
compelling choices. When I say so few, I'll be even more explicit. I think there's two,
Model 3 and Model Y, in that $50,000 price point range. So, you don't think about the
Cadillacs and the Genesis and things like that as direct rivals? I mean, the size of the negative
mark on them, they just haven't connected with consumers in a meaningful way. So, there's a
singular brand that has had a way to connect. And I think it's a combination of the refinement of
the product, the technologies in the product, and it owns around 60% market share. And so,
that doesn't, to me, that's not a reflection of a market that's extremely well-served. It's
reflection of a market that's underserved. And our view is that in order for electrification to
grow beyond its 8% today, there needs to be other highly successful, incredibly compelling
products that are selling hundreds of thousands of units a year. But they need to be different
than a Tesla. I think this is probably the biggest, again, causality is always a hard thing to
ascribe. But I think this isn't maybe the biggest mistake that a lot of car companies have made,
as they've said, Tesla's successful with the Model Y. Let's go do our own version of a Model Y.
And so, the form factor, like if you look at the centerline profile of a lot of the
other EVs that are in that $45,000 to $55,000 price range, they're nearly identical in terms of
package and shape and size to Tesla. Now, they're not exactly the same styling, but just like the
package and the offering in terms of the value prop is, it's very similar. And so, R2 tried really
hard to not be that. We're not trying to build another Tesla Model Y. It's priced almost right
on top of very, very similar to Model Y, but it's giving customers a very different choice.
And our hope and what we've seen resonate thus far is that customers that haven't made the jump
to a Tesla because it didn't meet their form factor needs, their aesthetic desires, maybe the brand
affinity are going to connect with R2. Yes. And so, these are people that maybe they're in a
deep branch hierarchy. They're in a RAV4 hybrid. They're in a forerunner. They're in vehicles that
are more SUV-like. And for those customers, they just said the Model Y just doesn't connect all
the dots in the way that they needed to. And so, our hope is that this actually expands the market.
But all that said is to the nature of the question. The number of companies that have
pulled back on their EV planes is surprising to me. It's surprising to see the scale of the
Red Austin and the pace at which folks are stepping back to ICE. Because you mentioned
8%, which was last year, I think at the moment our data is suggesting it's about 4% of the market.
Is there a danger that their EV kind of retreats to being almost what it was? So, it's kind of
affluent tech forward types rather than kind of mass adaptations. It feels like that at the moment
a little bit. I don't think the products that I think there's two things here to note. So, one is
I think the wrong way to lead with describing a product like an R2 is to say you should look at
this thing because it's electric. I think the right way to lead is to talk about how great the
product is and then at the end it's like, oh, and it's electric. Yeah. So, it's an SUV that
accelerates a portion out of 11, 0 to 60. It's more capable than almost anything off-road.
It's got more lockable storage space than any other vehicle in its class. It's got more cargo
space. It's got incredible rear seat comfort. So, you go through the list and you're like, oh,
that's really cool. And it's electric. And so, that draws people in to experience why
why you're buying. It's not just buying. It's electric. It needs to be a fundamentally better
product. I think that's one thing. I think the other thing is by coincidence, not by requirement,
but by coincidence, the autonomous capabilities of R2, and I think this is also true for Tesla,
by the way, but as autonomy levels increase, by coincidence, it's on EVs. Yes. EV architectures tend
to be more likely. And I'd say for Tesla and Rivian, I think it's the two of us,
that will draw people in. And so, I'm extremely bullish on what we're doing with autonomy.
We're on like step one of a 10-step journey, but it's what we showed a few months ago at our
autonomy day was just a glimpse as to what's coming later this year, which is a point-to-point
full navigation integration. But then into next year, when we get to hands off, eyes off,
it's a true level three. I think that's going to be a big lever arm for folks as well. And I don't
think everyone's going to have that technology. I think it's going to be only a few manufacturers
that have. Would you license that technology with that license to Volkswagen, for example?
We could. We might. Our focus right now is on make the tech exceptional. But it's by far our
biggest investment area of the business. And I'd say from a technical point of view, it's the
thing I'm most bullish on, but it takes time to prove out. It's not as if we can press a button
immediately be at level four. But the thing I say all the time, which if this entire podcast,
there's only one thing you take away, the rate of progress and autonomy for the last five years
should not be an indicator of the rate of progress and autonomy for the next five years.
And I think that's a mistake. Often when you see these technology,
like hockey stick curves or knees in the curve, it's where we look at the past as a way to predict
the future. Yeah, we had a like an enormous disruption to how we developed autonomy in the
last couple of years, which is use of transform based encoding and the idea of using neural nets
and foundation models versus a real space approach. That's just now like starting to happen. So that's
Tesla FSD is that our platform is that, and there's only a couple that are true AI based,
but the rate of progress and the rate of generalization is so much higher than anything that's
been done before. So it's just hard to, again, we tend to say, oh, well, the last five years,
this is how much progress autonomy made and sort of roughly say, well, that's what we think the
next five years gonna be like. It's just an incorrect assumption. It's going to be much faster.
It was kind of, we had on the Edmunds fleet, we have a Model Y with FSD and I spent a couple
of weeks in a recent, I was actually surprised how much I started to use it. It's good. And the
moment when I can email something, I gain an hour a day and it makes a huge difference. But imagine
when it's true hands off, off like, and there's no beeping, it's just like completely let's use it.
It's, it's, it does really start to shift things. Yeah. Okay, no problem. And from a, from a kind
of adoption, it's going back to EVs for a moment. What do you see as the primary reason for the,
the pullbacks? Obviously, there's the legislative stuff. There's an infrastructure thing. There's
the kind of political association with EVs. It's, it's quite a mixture. It's, it seems odd to me
that the, the idea of what propels your car has become politicized. I wish it wasn't.
What is happening? Here's how I describe it. I was just deciding how raw I'll be in my
response here. I think that, again, causality is a hard thing to describe. And very few
manufacturers on the journey to electrification really wanted it. Like you can sort of, it's not,
to me, it's pretty clear, but I think it maybe wasn't as clear to everyone. Most manufacturers are
like, oh, darn it. They're like, we have to do electrolyte vehicles. And it wasn't like there
was like an enthusiastic thrust within the business. And I think a lot of leaders of a lot of car
companies wish this whole EV thing just would go away and they can go back to making highly profitable,
you know, V8 powered SUVs and trucks. Well, certainly trying at the moment.
And so I think that was the hope. Yeah. There was the recognition from the financial community
and from the general public that you needed to electrify. So they went into it. And as a result,
the products did not have the level of success that really made them profitable or even provided
a path to profitability. And so I think the natural human reaction to that is the market's
not ready. I think the much more raw, honest reaction is the products are okay, but they're
not exceptional. And the existence proof of that hypothesis I just presented is Tesla. Tesla is
a car that's seven years old and it's selling a half a million units a year and they're making
money on it. And so we are very bullish on R2. I think R2 has the potential to be that as well,
like a very high volume car that sells really well. But it has to be really compelling. It has
to connect and there's not a magic to it. But if it's not a lot more compelling than the combustion
alternatives and it sells for a flagship car like an R1 with the best selling premium SUV in the
U.F. to make money. So a lot of these vehicles are all selling like less wine than an R1.
35,000-hour car, 40,000-hour car selling 30,000 units a year. The economics just don't work.
And so all these businesses are saying we're just can't do it. We're not going to go. We'd rather
go back to ICE. That's where like the majority of the business would rather be anyways.
You don't think it's an infrastructure thing? Because I mean, we owned an R1T from like a
great vehicle. Yeah, from a from a sort of the psychology of the road.
You're saying from a consumer point of view? I was talking about a manufacturer.
I was thinking more of a consumer angle. I think charging is a real consideration.
I think it's more of a consideration for people in their heads than it actually is.
So the average number of times a car is fast charged per year in the United States is around 12.
So there's 12 times a year that a car uses a charger that's not your house?
Yes. Which is far less than I think what people anticipate.
And that like we're building a charging network today. Of course, the biggest is Tesla's.
That has to get built out more. But I think that once people own the vehicle, unless you are someone
who does do a lot of road trips, that's less concerning. And then if you're doing road trips
in areas that have charging, it's not problematic. But if you're going through,
let's see, there's some deserts we like charging deserts. So if you're going through
North Carolina, yeah, or middle of nowhere Wyoming, like these are hard places because
there's not a lot of charging. Yeah. But I think that will change.
You haven't heard a huge amount of time, but we have, we just have a geely in the office at
the moment that we're testing super interesting vehicle. Of course, it's an E-Rive and it's
works extremely well. And the technology feels pretty robust. Yeah. Is that something, I know
it's not sort of off the brand at one level, but you know, is that something you would ever consider?
We would never consider it. But I think if you're going to pick like a middle stepping stone as
if you're a traditional manufacturer, I think it's, it's certainly better than a traditional hybrid.
Yeah. You know, because it allows you to at least have an architecture that's mostly indeed.
But I, but I'd say in the, we just look on a long time horizon. If I look at a 10 year
time horizon, I think that that is going to be like an intermediate solution for me. You know
what it makes me think of before we went to the idea of like an iPod, which is like a memory
platform in your pocket that would hold a thousand plus songs. There was these mini disc players
that was a, you went from a CD. I use them. I can remember using them on student radio. Yeah.
You'd have like one, you know, 17 songs or 15 songs in a CD. And then the mini disc player
came out and you could put like a hundred songs on it. Yeah. And it was the first time you could
play MP3s and it was, and I bought one and it was like, had utility for like two years. And then
the iPod came out and it was like, Oh, that's when to the shoebox and never come out again. And I
think E revs are going to feel like that in 2035. I think it's going to feel like this thing that
a couple of companies did or a bunch of companies did between 2025 and 2035,
but a decade from now, they're just, it's going to feel like a mini disc player.
Yeah. Interesting. I just finally on a, on a personal level, I know you're now into
to robots and to e-bikes and everything else. I mean, how much of your time is Rivian and,
you know, where does the, where does the passion lie?
The passion is on everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it varies. And there, there, there's a lot of
overlap, especially when it comes to AI. Yeah. So the robotics work that we do, thinking about
like model architectures, training infrastructure. I do, I do like journal readings with like,
get like a team of people and get sit together and read some of the, like the papers that are
coming out. And it's nice now because I use like the team from mind, the team from Rivian,
our autonomy team, we sit down together, we talk about what's the most current advances and,
you know, internet scale video, pre-training our models and some of like the front,
like topics around the frontier. And it's awesome because I can like benefit from two teams that
are both working on building foundation models. I think that's one of the most important part
of my jobs. My job is AI is going to change so much of the world, our society, our business.
And so like I, I'm a technologist, so I want to be like the very front edge of what's happening
in AI. And so I spend a disproportionately large amount of my time on AI. Yeah. But that,
that benefits all the businesses. So like also there's going to be a, we're doing work and like
thinking about like autonomy for the bike lane as well. So there's, there's a lot of,
a lot of ways this all overlaps. Autonomous Bikes. Or Autonomous Spods. Okay. There we go.
Fascinating. Well, congratulations again on winning the Edmunds Top Rated. Oh yeah. One
T and yeah, super well deserved. And yeah, I mean, it's amazing, big team behind you,
but it's well deserved. Thank you. And thank you for your time. Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you.
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Okay, so great interview, by the way. I'm glad you got some time with him. There's
a few things that I kind of want to unpack there is first starting with how he sees the
Rivian and what the market is. This was kind of interesting going, you were asking him about
some of its competitors. And what he said is, he said, I see the R2 specifically as Rivian as a
brand, but he sees the R2 specifically as a competitor on money levels. He was like,
just to other things that don't necessarily mean EV. He's saying EV isn't really the deciding factor
in his mind is what he perceives his audience to be. He's saying, maybe you want a RAV4,
maybe you want off-road capability of like forerunner or something. Maybe you want something
that's quick, like as fast as a 911. He goes, but then it just happens to be EV. It's an interesting
look on the market for that product. I think I would say it's an optimistic look.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure that I buy that entirely. I'm not 100% convinced that he buys
the Entirely, to be honest, but I think his argument is, look, if this car is to succeed,
and this is a May corporate car for Rivian, we talked about the three series earlier in the
show, but this is a car that has to work to really put the company on a sound financial
footing. In order to succeed, especially as the market for EVs keeps diminishing,
it can't just steal customers from Tesla Model Y. I mean, that's going to be the bulk of its
market, but it needs to seduce people out of RAV4s, forerunners, CRVs, and everything else in that
$50,000 price range, BMW X3, that kind of thing. I think what he's trying to say is, look, think
of it as a vehicle with all this capability, and then think of it as an EV, rather than let's
think of an EV and work backwards. I'm not convinced that's how a lot of consumers see things.
I think particularly at the moment, there's still a bit of anxiety attached to EVs, and
if we look at the latest data, there is an argument, I think I put this to him, that
EVs are going back to being this niche for techy, affluent, forward-thinking people,
rather than being this kind of mass adoption. It's agonising and making that argument,
but I think if you're going to have one of these, you've got to buy into the fact that you're buying
an EV. Yeah. I understand where he's coming from. Certainly, as the CEO of this company,
you're looking at every feature to make the best possible SUV out there, the most off-road
capability, as he stated. One of the quickest out there, he said as fast as the 911, comfortable,
roomy, all of the features you'd want in a good SUV, especially in an SUV of that size,
probably far more room on the inside than an SUV of that size, more lockable storage than anything
else on the market. He's looking at it and comparing it like you guys would be doing at
Edmunds as well, going, hey, we're going to look at RAV4 versus CRV, and here's all of the things
that go up against it. Yes, at the end of your evaluation, Edmunds would typically go, also,
we're looking at, we've got two four-cylinders or four hybrids, and here's the gas mileage,
and here's the pickup, and does it feel lively or not? That's a steering response. He's putting,
essentially, by making an EV and sort of downplaying the EV part, he's going,
we're going to pay a little bit less attention to the power plant portion because he thinks it's
going to trump any gas engine by going, it's faster.
And I think this has always been the argument around EV adoption, is that they're actually a
better car. You've got better software, you've got lots of advantages of an EV, better packaging,
you certainly got better packaging if you do it right. And I think he's also sort of saying in
there that actually it feels like a lot of the legacy brands actually haven't done the EV thing
terribly well, so the products haven't been that step ahead. It's interesting, the big play,
which I think he feels is potentially the game change moment, is autonomy. I mean,
this is something that, obviously, Tesla's pushing incredibly hard, not just with their road,
you know, their passenger cars, things like RoboTaxes. And what he's basically saying is,
EVs is a better platform with all the technology they have on board for autonomy.
My understanding is there's no reason why you can't bring autonomy to gas cars, but it's,
but there's this kind of where he thinks the big bet is that essentially, once you can reach the
point where, what we call level three, where you can take your eyes off the road and your hands
off the wheel and then you can start to email or watch a movie or whatever it be, that's the
dig tipping point. And he's saying things next year, we could already be in that place. Tesla
obviously isn't there with full self-driving. You can take your hands off the wheel, but you still
have to pay attention and it monitors you. That is the big moment, the big moment when you gain
back that time to play with the kids, do your emails, watch a movie, whatever you want to do.
So I think that's his big bet. And the interesting thing, because I asked him is,
well, once you've got mastered that technology, can you just license it? And
Volkswagen's put four billion into Rivian for its technology stack and things like that. So
you've then got a difficult decision. And Elon Musk has the same decision is,
do I just ring fence this technology for me and hope that I sell more Rivians and more Teslas?
Or do I actually license this to people who haven't got it, help them integrate it into their
product and then actually make a ton of money from the licensing? So that's going to be an
interesting challenge because everybody's been trying to do this. But yeah, so when you brought
up the licensing and he said, yeah, it certainly could be an option. It might be a fair option in
the future. When I was listening to that, and I went back and listened to it twice and I was
thinking about it going, well, I think licensing it wouldn't be quite as simple as licensing the
software. There probably have to be some hardware components that would have to go along with that
licensing deal. Certain modules or sensors or things like that that attach to steering and
throttle response and whatever sort of safety or even just like the cameras and stuff and how it
sees the world. So I think the idea of licensing it would be more complex than just licensing
software. It's not just like you're paying your license fee and you get access to Microsoft Word
or something. No, it's not Netflix. No, it's fundamental, but you would be licensing a technology
and a package and everything that goes with it. And there's no question that EVs is an easier
world to do this in because you've just got the Tesla and the Rivian software-defined vehicles,
which now is actually saying they're beyond software-defined vehicles, now AI-defined vehicles.
So it basically means that you've just got so much more control over everything,
whether it's through over-the-air updates or rather than you're not creating a product
and then changing it eight years time when you build the new one, you've got something that's
kind of a living organism. It's really interesting. The autonomy is a big bet and I do believe what
he said about how the pace of change. I've been following autonomy for probably 15 years. I remember
going to BMW and in the early days, how they're going to accrue all the data. The whole AI revolution
has really made a fundamental difference to how autonomy is going to work and the pace of change
and the ability for the computers to anticipate situations. I used to say to people, I couldn't
see it happening in 10 years. Now, I think I have a different view on it just because
of the whole AI thing. Right. So one of the things he said specifically in the interview was,
where we've even come in the last five years on autonomy and by extension AI,
where we've come in the last five years isn't anywhere near what will happen in the next five
years. We'll go at such a faster pace of development but also rolling things out.
But my other thought on the discussion with autonomy was, we think of autonomy like you were
for you, take you to where you need to go, especially if you're setting a navigation
point. I'm starting from home, I need to get to the office, get me to the office,
and while I do a few other things. But I think the adoption rate for consumers might be a little
slower than the rollout of autonomy commercially. So I think a company like Tesla and like Rivian,
I think a big part of why he's putting so much attention and investment into autonomy
is because they do want to get those like robo taxis and stuff out of there.
Where, right, especially for us on the West Coast, we have Waymo's and now they're becoming
sort of a thing we see every day and people are just getting in cars and cars. We're just trusting
that you're going to get driven someplace. But it's not your car. So once you get over the fact
that you feel like it's fairly safe and you're going to get a pretty decent ride out of it.
But once it's your car and you're spending $50,000 or more on it, you're going,
well, I don't want to hit anything. I don't want to be liable for anything. I don't want to hurt
anybody. When am I really going to use it? Am I using it early in the morning, the autonomy
feature when there's less people around? But I think from a financial point, he's going,
this makes sense for Rivian because we need to get autonomous cars out there working.
I mean, the, I mean, all of the arguments for autonomy is that it's safer than
you know, and a lot of the data, you know, a lot of the data tends to support that it's better.
It is a, I always think about it and it says, oh, go, you know, maybe it says, well, this is
crazy, the computer's driving the car and you're getting a Waymo, whatever it may be.
But the reality is, you know, the idea, you know, maybe in 50 years time, we'll look back and say,
well, you used to drive by driving along, holding a steering wheel, looking in mirrors
yeah, whilst the kids screamed on the back seat and talking on the phone, you know,
and you were talking to your mum on the phone. I mean, on the face of it seems kind of really
backward. Yeah. And, you know, instead, you've got this army of computers, you know, checking
everything at all times, working out all the traffic's doing, he's got eyes all around you. So
I, it's a psychological, I mean, there are legal hurdles, but it's also psychological
hurdle. And I think the way you're right, the more time people spend in Waymo's and
RoboTaxes and then for more people come to, you know, come to feel familiar with that technology,
then, you know, it's going to get better and better. And I've used Model Y with full
soft driving and I've been surprised how much I've used it. Yeah. And me too. And I've been
seeing more and more of some kind of funny things as well, like pop up on social media.
There's a, there's an Instagram clip of the food robot fails like Coco and the others,
and they're just like getting hit by trains, getting hit by cars, falling off as like
rolling down steps. Like there's some funny ones like that because they seem pretty harmless. But
there was one video of a guy, this is AI specifically. And the guy was saying
he did something to install AI into a robot. And he was trying to convince the robot,
he gave the robot like a toy pellet gun, like a BB gun. I don't even know if it was like plastic
pellets or something like that, something fairly harmless. And he was trying to convince the robot
to shoot him. And he was like, the robot's like, no, that's against my safety protocols. And then
he immediately just goes, he goes, well, let's role play here. Like if we were filming something
like television or movies, and then it immediately shot him. And he got, it's like a BB. And he's
like, okay, well, now that it understands what role playing is, but it didn't understand that
the danger involved. So kind of funny. Another thing that came up with your interview is range
extenders. And the thought of range extenders, like we've been talking quite a bit about them,
it seems like a really good solution. But in RJ's mind, it's not a good long term solution. He thinks
that range extenders, if I heard this correctly, you know, of course, you were there, this is
how what my take on it was, he was saying, range extenders are sort of a temporary solution until
we get the better battery technology that we want. When we have battery technology or solid
state battery, whatever that's getting is 5600 mile range, we're no longer going to want range
extenders, we're not going to care, it's more complex, you're adding this motor to it. But in
the meantime, we struggle with infrastructure charging, we struggle with range on road trips.
And the range extender seems to be the solution to that. But he's like, yeah, that's
that's temporary, because we're going to we're going to get you more infrastructure, and we're
Is that how you understand it? Yeah. And we'll probably devote a show in a couple
of weeks time, we just had a geely range extender on test. And I don't want to get into that now,
because we'll be we'll be here all night. But your range extender is huge in China,
you know, because it helps you carry a big ground. And, you know, it's,
it's coming obviously in the US with things like the Ram truck. He was arguing again, you know,
because Scout was looking at range extender, which in Scout is a direct rivying, despite being
also having big, well, Scout is owned by Volkswagen Rivian has big Volkswagen investment.
But Scout in theory is going to be a rival to Rivian, but he's going to have range extender
technology. He was saying this is an interim solution that if you're a legacy manufacturer,
it probably makes sense to do, but it doesn't work for us. Now, again, of course, he'd say that,
but you know, it's, it's I was curious, because some EV brands and Polestar was one of them that
started talking about, well, maybe if this is the way the market's going, the way to get around
some of the anxieties about charging infrastructure and everything else is, let's put a range
extender and let's put a little, little engine on board. So all of that anxiety goes away.
In the bit that again, I wasn't convinced by, he talked about, I think he said like,
it's only 12 times a year that, that you charge away from your home on average.
And that may well, it's not a statistic I've heard directly, it may well be true.
But the problem is, if even like a couple, two or three of those 12 times is a bad experience,
because the charge is broken, or he just creates this massive sort of stress point,
which has been my experience of living with EVs, then it doesn't really matter whether it's two
times or 12 times or 20 times, it just becomes such a negative impact on whether I'm going to have
another EV or whether I have two EVs in the family or whatever it may be. So he's writing as much
that it's a psychological thing rather than a practical thing for most, most of your days.
But you only need to have a few bad experiences to fur it to, you know, to really have a big impact.
Yes, I drove out to Palm Springs for the Mustang GTD drive. I took my electric truck out there.
It was great, drove the GTD. And then I knew I needed to charge my battery before I left.
And it's exactly what you're talking about. It's like, I knew this ahead of time. So I try
to lower my stress level and account for time, right? But even with that, I went to two different
chargers. The first one didn't make sense. I don't know what was going on. I was in a parking
garage. It didn't give me access, whatever. I went to the next one. And there was actually
two different stations there. The first station couldn't get it to work. And now I'm standing
outside, not in a parking garage. It's 110 degrees out there. And you're just out there for a couple
of minutes trying to fuss with this thing going, oh my God, I'm dying out here. And then I found
another charging station across the street in a parking garage where there was some shade.
And then it wasn't until some guy rolled up and it's like Ioniq 5. And I was like, hey,
how do I get this machine to work? And he's like, oh yeah, you got to have this other app and it's
got to be in like your wallet. And once I figured it out, it was easy. But there wasn't any real
clear instructions in the process. So I'm standing there for 10 minutes going, I still can't figure
this out. So yes, to your point, I'm like, I'm heading to Vegas tomorrow. And I was just going,
okay, well, what am I going to drive? I can do it in my truck. I did it back. I took my truck from
SEMA back, but where am I stopping? How am I charging it? How long is it going to take? Is
it going to be aligned? Already these things. So that's the part that I think that RJ is
putting less emphasis on is the mental preparation going, I don't want to do this 12
times a year. I don't want to do this once a year. Yes, unless it just works and it's seamless. And
until you get to that point where you trust the system, which I still think we're a little way
to go. But yeah, I mean, interesting, interesting, I like the product. I think, you know, it's,
it's, you know, we get to get to get in and test it and everything else. But that's not, you know,
we're going to be, we're going to be improving proper testing of it pretty soon. So, you know,
I, they need it to succeed. And I think it has all the ingredients. You know, if an EV is going
to break through this year and really be a success, I genuinely think this is the one.
I agree. I think they have a shot at it. And I do like, you know, what he was saying,
look at the R2 based off the merits of the vehicle before you even really sort of
consider EV. And I don't disagree because I have an EV. And the R2, it looks good.
The specs are there. You know, maybe on some level, I'd like to see a little bit more range,
especially after just reading about the new i3 and that could potentially have
over 400 miles of range. Like that was my first question was, how's BMW doing it?
I think, I mean, I think if there are two vehicles that potentially break through this year,
I think BMW iX3, not so much the iDiX, the SUV and the R2 could be the two EVs that actually
book the trend a little bit. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. What else we got
on the docket? What else you guys got going on? What else are we up to? We've just wrapped up
our ownership of the Ram 1500. We can probably talk about that maybe next week. New York auto
show is coming up a couple of weeks time. So I just got to get another week in LA, then I
want to New York for a couple of days. So yeah, a few things, a few things happening there,
having a look at the new Volkswagen Atlas. And yeah, there's a few other things going on there.
So looking forward to that. Yeah. Always busy. Always busy. Always busy. Sleep by the dead.
All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week. And until then,
keep the air and the spare and the bag and the wheel.
Hi, you're listening to meditating with Jan from Toyota. Soften your focus and visualize yourself
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About this episode
BMW’s new i3 EV design language takes center stage, with debate over its sharp “kidney” front, eccentric north-south steering wheel, and screen-heavy cabin layout—plus questions about whether battery breakthroughs are coming fast enough. A serious Hyundai Palisade stop-sale is discussed for limited/calligraphy trims with powered third-row issues. The main event is an interview with Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe at the R2 launch, where he frames R2 as a mass-capable SUV competing for buyers like RAV4/4Runner shoppers, and bets heavily on autonomy progress toward level 3 and beyond.
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