Coupe vs Targa vs Cabriolet: Which Porsche 911 Is Best?
Eleven After Nine | A Porsche Culture Podcast
Coupe vs Targa vs Cabriolet: Which Porsche 911 Is Best?
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Car
Porsche 911
The Porsche 911 is a famous sports car that looks really cool and drives fast. It's been around for a long time and is loved by many people because of how well it performs on the road.
Term
Targa
A Targa is a car with a roof that can be taken off, but it still has a bar behind the seats for safety. It gives you the feeling of driving with the top down without losing all the structure of the car.
Term
air-cooled
Air-cooled means the engine doesn't use water or coolant to stay cool; instead, it relies on air. This was a common design in older cars, especially Porsches, and is part of what makes them unique.
Concept
Luftgekühlt
Luftgekühlt is a special event where people who love older Porsche cars come together to show off their vehicles and enjoy the community. It's all about celebrating these unique cars.
Term
slick top
A 'slick top' is a car without a sunroof. Some car enthusiasts like this because it can make the car stronger and lighter.
Car
Porsche Boxster
The Porsche Boxster is a sporty car that has a convertible top, so you can drive it with the roof down. It's designed to be fun to drive and is often seen as a more budget-friendly option compared to the more expensive Porsche 911.
Company
Elephant Racing
Elephant Racing sells parts that help improve how Porsche cars handle and ride on the road. They are well-regarded in the Porsche community for their quality products.
Car
Porsche Cayman
The Porsche Cayman is a sports car made by Porsche. It's designed to be fun to drive and has a great balance, meaning it handles well on the road.
Car
Porsche Targa
The Porsche Targa is a type of car that has a part of the roof that can be taken off, giving you an open-air feel while still being safe.
Car
Renault Wind
The Renault Wind is a small convertible car that lets you enjoy driving with the roof down. It's designed to be fun and is often seen as a good option for those who want a stylish car without spending too much.
Concept
coupe
A coupe is a type of car that usually has two doors and looks sporty. It's designed to be stylish and fun to drive.
Concept
convertible
A convertible is a car that has a roof that can be removed or folded down, so you can drive with the top down. It's great for enjoying nice weather.
Car
Porsche Boxster Spyder
The Porsche Boxster Spyder is a sporty convertible car that is very fun to drive. The 2016 model is part of a series known for being lightweight and having a powerful engine.
Term
Sport Exhaust
Sport Exhaust is a special type of exhaust system that makes the car sound louder and sportier. It helps the engine breathe better, which can make the car perform better too.
Car
Porsche 718 Spyder
The Porsche 718 Spyder is a sporty convertible car that is fun to drive. It has a powerful engine that makes a great sound, especially when you let off the gas.
Car
Porsche Gt4S
The Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 is a sporty hardtop car that is made for racing and driving fast. It has a strong engine and is built to handle well on the track.
Term
turbo
A turbo is a part of some car engines that helps them go faster by forcing in more air and fuel. Cars with turbos usually have more power than those without.
Part
bushings
Bushings are small parts that help connect different parts of a car's suspension. They make the ride smoother and quieter by absorbing bumps and vibrations.
Car
Porsche 356
The Porsche 356 Speedster is an old sports car that many people love for its unique look and light weight. It was made in the 1950s and is considered a classic today.
Part
subwoofer
A subwoofer is a speaker that makes the deep sounds in music, like bass. It's often added to car sound systems to make the music sound better and fuller.
Car
Ford Windstar
The Ford Windstar is a type of minivan made by Ford. It was popular for families because it had a lot of room inside for passengers and cargo.
Car
Infiniti G20
The Infiniti G20 is a small luxury car made by Infiniti, which is part of Nissan. It was known for being stylish and comfortable, making it a popular choice for drivers looking for a bit of luxury.
Car
Honda Prelude
The Honda Prelude is a two-door car that Honda made for many years. It's known for being fun to drive and has a sporty look.
Car
Honda Civic
The Honda Civic is a small car that many people drive because it's reliable and doesn't use much gas. It's been around for a long time and comes in different versions.
Term
aftermarket stereo
An aftermarket stereo is a sound system you add to your car after you buy it. It often has more features than the one that comes with the car, like Bluetooth for music streaming.
Car
Porsche
Porsche is a famous car brand from Germany that makes fast and luxury sports cars. They are well-known for their quality and performance.
Term
flat-six
A flat-six engine has six cylinders laid out flat, which helps the car handle better because it makes the car's weight lower. It's a common design in some sports cars, especially from brands like Porsche.
Term
rear window seals
Rear window seals are the rubber parts around the back window of a car that keep water from leaking inside.
Term
surface rust repair
Surface rust repair is fixing rust that appears on the outside of a car. It's important to do this to stop the rust from getting worse and damaging the car more.
Term
sunroof
A sunroof is a window on the top of a car that you can open to let in fresh air and sunlight. Some cars have sunroofs that you can open by hand, while others have buttons to do it automatically.
Car
Porsche 944
The Porsche 944 is a sporty car that was made in the 1980s and 1990s. It has a good balance and is fun to drive, often considered a more affordable option for those who want a Porsche.
Term
ECU
The ECU is like the car's brain, controlling how the engine and other parts work. If it gets wet, it can break and cause big problems.
LIVE
Welcome to Renthousiast Radio, the podcast where Will and Derek navigate the winding
roads of Porsche Obsession, exploring the good and the bad of Porsche ownership.
Grab your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and join us, Renthousiast Radio, because life's
too short not to talk about Porsches.
Welcome to Renthousiast Radio.
I'm Will and I'm Derek.
Derek, I think you've got Coupe guys, you got Cab guys, and then you got the guys in
the middle that are Targa guys.
This is a topic we've not yet discussed specifically.
You and I have gone back and forth regarding our preferences, our thoughts on 9-11 Coupes
versus 9-11 Cabs.
We haven't really talked about Targas that much.
Of course, we've folded in the mid-engine spider, and we've talked a little bit about
that.
What I thought is you could do your usual inviting folks to come check out other content,
and then we'll get into, I think, maybe some technical definitions for maybe the casual
enthusiasts out there that really have no idea what I'm talking about when I say Targa
or Cab or Coupe, and then we can get into our healthy discussions slash debate.
On the merits and the downsides of each platform.
I really want to have a little friendly war in the comments, too, because there are three
different modalities.
We're talking specifically about 9-11s today.
Portia does, in the other model ranges, come out with convertibles and Coupes and Targas,
but we're going to be talking about 9-11s.
What I really want to talk about, we joke around a lot, you and I, about I'm a convertible
guy, you're a Coupe guy, and never should the two meet, but I do want to touch on all
three modalities in terms of what it is like to drive them through the generations.
We've had some experience.
What are some of the failure points for people looking at the three things across those generations?
What are the values and why does sometimes the roof dictate very clearly what the price
is on the car in relation to the other offerings and is some of the heat justified?
We can talk through that.
Will has been very prolific on Renthusiast, his YouTube channel, dropping quite a few
videos in the last week, and I hope you guys are all checking them out.
I was checking out your 9-9-6 video that you dropped with a crazy racing livery.
I really enjoyed that.
On 11 after 9, my YouTube channel, we continue to... Actually, I've been putting up a lot
of shorts lately about swapping out the famous steering wheel on my 9-8-1.
I finally found one that worked and put it, and I'm going to be putting a video together,
but check those out as well.
As always, please get your friends to subscribe on the audio side to Apple Podcasts and Spotify
and anywhere you listen to podcasts.
So, Will, I framed the debate, but before we get into it, here's the hook for the audience.
Will has Targa Fever, and Will isn't a vowed coupe guy.
As long as I've known him, it's coupe or bust, but he's flirting by going topless.
And Will, I want you to talk about why that is, man.
What's the allure?
Okay, to get the audience up to speed here, I'm going to press the rewind button.
A few weeks back, I went to Luftgekalt.
Derek was there as well, and we had a good time, and we drove before it, and it was just
kind of this air-cooled experience.
I have long said on my channel, I shouldn't say long, maybe over the past year, I've said,
hey, look, as it relates to air-cooled Porsche ownership, I have decided that really,
I'm interested in a 993, and that's it.
Derek, you know this, I've been in and out of a lot of air-cooled Porsches.
I have enjoyed the hell out of the journey, that segment of my journey,
but certainly they do require some upkeep, sorting, maintenance, repairs, and so forth,
especially when you buy them.
So I've been through the ringer on that, and I've had a lot of good times.
I don't want to paint a negative picture of my air-cooled ownership experience,
but anyway, I use that to say I went to Luftgekalt and true to form for me,
and I don't know if anybody out there can relate, but I will, first of all, if you've
watched my content, I will give contradictory positions on something.
So I will say, Derek, I will never do this, and then two weeks later, I'm like,
change my mind.
So I go to Luft, I look around, these cars have character, these cars are so cool,
I love the culture around the cars, and I made the decision to reverse my thinking,
and I wanted to get into an earlier car, a G-body, so let's call it a 911 SC,
or maybe a 3-2 Carrera.
So that was the inception.
I've decided to add another air-cooled Porsche to my...
It just goes with how emotional these are, right?
Well, like these cars, you swear off it because you've been burned in the past,
but then that ex-girlfriend walked in the room and you went, oh, man,
maybe it'll work this time.
We had fun.
It's like, we had fun.
It was a good time.
I could say some other things, but I don't want to be inappropriate.
I'm just kidding.
G-rated podcast.
That's right, dude.
That's right.
So anyway, you know, I start my search, I create some want-to-buy content as I'm
apt to do on my channel and on my other social media outlets,
and I begin to get cars sent to me, and initially I'm looking at coupes.
And I've owned many a coupe.
I've owned two 1986 coupes.
I've owned a mid-year with a 3-2 Motorswaps.
That was in 1976, 9-11 coupe.
And that was a slick top.
I think we got to fold in a little bit of slick top content here, too.
There you go.
You want to explain what that is?
Yeah, it's a sunroof delete car.
And true enthusiasts love that.
And I imagine it adds to the structural rigidity, or it also deals with the weight
reduction.
And I just think maybe it dims bragging rights for certain people.
So anyway, spoiler alert, I didn't love that.
I'm a sunroof guy, solidly.
So call me a poser, maybe not.
Anyway, man, as I get these coupes, I start looking at them.
I'm like, man, great cars, pretty cars, fun cars, but been there, done that, you know?
And I have a number of cars in the garage right now that none of which are open tops.
I did have maybe a six-month ownership experience with a 987 Boxster,
which is clearly an open top experience.
But at any rate, I have never tried a Targa.
So I have decided to give that a shot.
I have a friend of mine who has a Targa, and he freaking loves it.
And he can rip, because it's all set up with elephant racing, suspension and such.
So at any rate, that is a long, blathering explanation of why I have decided to dip
my toe in the water of a Targa.
And I'll be curious to see what it's like to own.
I have had several cars that I've been looking at, and so the search continues.
You know, it's interesting.
Well, I completely get it.
I mean, this is a Flavorvice Cream, a corner apportion ownership that you just haven't had
before, you haven't been there before, and you just want to give it a try.
Here I am talking about in this podcast about how I enjoy convertibles, and yet I'm looking for a
Cayman.
And so there you go, that just because I haven't tried it before, and I want to speak
eloquently on it and have that driving experience.
So I completely get it.
Maybe before we go down the route of, because I want to get it right out there,
what our personal biases are on this podcast, what we like and what we don't like when it
comes to coups and convertibles and Targas.
Let me real quickly just explain what Targas are, because people coming in to this podcast
might be like, what the heck is that?
Now, mid to late 60s, Porsche came out with the Targa.
At the time, the U.S., there was a lot of rumors about banning of convertibles for safety reasons.
And so Porsche, of course, reacted to that ahead of any legislation and developed what they call
the Targa named after the Targa Florio.
They marketed as the first safety cabriolet.
And essentially what it is, is if you go halfway between a convertible and a coupe,
there's a safety roll bar or roll hoop that goes behind the driver and passenger.
And in early guises, you had kind of a zip-out rear window.
And then that became actually a full glass window behind this roll hoop.
And you just had this little portion of roof that you could take on and off manually above
you to get open air experience while still having additional structural rigidity.
And I probably say maybe a little bit more weather and wind protection than a normal convertible.
And so that's the Targa.
The Targa has really been part of the Porsche lineup since those late 60s
in a lot of different versions.
Did I miss anything there, Will?
No. And I love, again, once, as always, Derek brings the historical perspective.
And so, no, that's great, man.
And my pocket protector is in.
Will, so here's my take on coupes, convertibles, and Targas when it comes to Porsche, okay?
Coupes, I think, in almost every generation,
aesthetically are probably the most beautiful.
The Porsche lines are famous.
The Coke bottle shape that was developed very early and has gone through so many iterations
to drive a coupe.
I mean, that's the Porsche experience, whether it's a two-wheel or a four-wheel experience.
The coupe is pure Porsche.
And other things are iterative on that.
That isn't to say that it's the best experience always, but I think it really is.
If you're going to be driving a car, you have to drive one of those to get what it's like.
So I'm not saying that I'm a coupe guy all the time, because obviously I'm not.
I am a huge convertible fan.
I've owned many, many boxers.
I have a boxer right now along with an early 70s 911 coupe.
I actually think that driving convertibles are, it's more experiential.
You get to enjoy the drive.
You get to enjoy the process of being on the road in a Porsche that much more,
because you can hear the motor maybe a little bit more clearly.
You have the wind in your hair.
You can smell the wood smoke here in New England as we enter into winter.
And I feel like it's just something awesome about cranking the heat with the top down
and just buzzing through back roads is fantastic for me.
So I love convertibles, unfortunately, in my mind.
And again, please, anyone listening to this podcast?
Well, don't hate on us.
This is a non-research podcast.
This is our opinions only, and most of them are wrong.
And so I'm just sharing kind of my thoughts on
what aesthetically convertibles look like when it comes to Porsche.
And I think the values reflect that is that in the 80s,
when Porsche came out with their 911 convertible,
and ever since then, the roof and the lines have been a little bit interrupted
because mechanically, the mechanisms weren't there to completely mimic
in every way that beautiful shape of a 911 coupe.
And in the 80s, the 90s, the early 2000s, into the 2000 teens.
And my personal opinion is, while aesthetically,
they might not be as beautiful as the coupes, you have that open-air motoring.
991s, which was 2012-2013, was the first probably generation,
where because of the technology in the roof panels,
they were able to much more similarly mimic a coupe.
And I think those convertibles are beautiful.
And while the values might not be quite where the coupes are,
I think they're a lot closer than earlier generations.
One of the issues with convertibles, you don't have a roof,
and so they're just not as stiff.
And so early 911s that are convertibles don't drive like a coupe 911.
They're way more flexi, there's way more cowl shake.
I don't love to drive early 911 convertibles.
I don't think that they're sporty.
I think they creak and rattle quite a bit.
Targas, somewhere in the middle.
Targas much more rigid.
I feel like they drive, especially the early ones.
They drive a lot like coupes,
but they have the squeaks and rattles of the convertibles,
especially if you have your target top on.
And if it's not brand new and batten down,
you have a lot of creaks when you go over rattles,
and rattles when you go over bumps.
And so that was kind of fixed in a lot of ways
with the 991 target as well,
which is this crazy transformer type roof,
which we can get into later.
There's a lot of talking,
but that's kind of where it all settles for me.
How about you?
Man, I'm just sitting here listening to all of that that you gave.
It's a lot of value there.
I mean, a lot of really great information.
And I was just imagining you and me were together at a car meet
or whatever you want to call it, cars and coffee
or maybe a PCA show, whatever.
And you and I are standing there,
and you're walking around the car,
and you're pointing out all the subtleties and all these,
like, oh yes, in 1995,
they introduced this particular aerodynamic line.
And I'm just like, even the damn keys, I'm out of here, right?
Like, I just want to drive it.
I love the technical knowledge you bring.
I guess that's why people like our teamwork here.
I mean, look, man, I'm just kind of an organic
experiencer of these cars.
I have never owned a 911 convertible.
I have owned a 2016 Boxster Spider,
which is a soft top mid-engine car.
And I'm going to say this right now.
I've owned a lot of these.
I've driven a lot of these.
Objectively speaking, that 981 Spider
brought the best experience I've ever had.
So all around.
So, like, the drivability, the precision,
the transmission, the motor, the torque down low.
But here's where I'm going.
That car comes standard with Sport Exhaust.
And when you have the top down on a beautiful fall day,
not only are you getting the experience
that you just described, which is so good,
little chilly, crank up the heat.
You have the top down.
But with that Sport Exhaust, man, and the open top,
there is no better sound on the face of the planet
than when you're decelerating into second
and that thing is popping and cracking.
And so really, I've had two GT4s,
which is the sister car of that.
And with that hard top,
you just aren't getting that experience of the exhaust.
So just to say, open top in a Porsche,
I have experience with that.
And that is second to none.
All of the senses are catching everything you're looking for.
So there's that, man.
I don't know.
I have never driven an earlier 911 convertible.
They just haven't excited me in my searches for these cars.
Again, I publish content that says,
hey, if you've got something interesting, send it to me.
I've been so firm on coupes.
And sometimes I'll get the odd person
that sends me a cab and sells me hard
on why it's just as good as a coupe
or it's an amazing example.
And I've just always kind of,
not to sound judgmental or anything.
They just haven't interested me.
And so I just dismissed them out of hand.
I think the target would be...
I'm just pausing.
Because you've never driven one.
I mean, I don't know, man.
If I'm thinking of earlier cars,
I'm thinking that beautiful shape.
I think they're just not very attractive.
And I got to say, a target with the top on is not that...
I mean, it just can't hold a candle to the coupe
in terms of the looks and just how it moves me.
I do think a target with the top off,
that side profile looks killer.
And again, back to the original reason for my search.
I mean, it's just something that I want to sample.
And I think it's like any other model too, Derek.
And we've talked about this.
Like I would imagine, like you can't get into a target
and imagine it's a coupe.
It's like you've got to hug the thing for what it is.
And that sounds so obvious,
but I do think guys, particularly just sidebar,
like heavy duty modders,
they're trying to make their car something that it's not.
And I've learned in my journey that you got to...
It's like that Boxster.
It was slow.
It was a base Boxster that I owned, the 2.7 motor.
You can't get in there and expect it to be a turbo.
You just can't.
And so I imagine that's going to be the case with the target.
I'm excited to have it in the garage when I finally do find one.
Yeah.
I mean, if you take any of those cars that are targets or coupes
and you put on elephant racing bushings
and you change up the suspension and you drop it
and you tighten up and do crazy alignments,
it's going to drive very differently for sure.
I have had experience driving 80s convertibles and 911s.
And again, I don't want to insult the audience.
If you have that car and you love it, I'm so happy for you.
If you have an 80s target and you love it, I don't,
but I'm really happy for you.
I found that the mid-80s, 911 convertibles,
you literally drive over bumps and you can feel the car,
just like the front tires go and then the rear tires go.
And I might have been driving a poor example
where I really kind of formed, in my opinion,
and I know there's people out there that say,
that doesn't happen and that's fine.
I think they're cool with the top down.
I think with the top up a lot like 356 speedsters.
I don't know if they look quite right.
And certainly they don't have those pure 911 lines.
I don't love how targets look, again,
because I feel like you have this big roll hoop
and it interrupts those beautiful lines
of the roof coming down into the B pillar and the C pillar.
But I can see what you're saying.
I think that targets, if they're in a really cool color, pop,
maybe a little bit better, for sure.
From a looking standpoint, they're okay.
I just know that they're really noisy
and the target tops leak a lot
if you don't really keep up on them.
So there is some maintenance there
for those folks that are interested.
Crank the tunes, dude.
Crank the tunes.
Ignore the noises.
All right, so get a target with a good stereo.
Yeah, dude.
Maybe a subwoofer under the passenger seat.
I got a sub in my 993.
I didn't put it in.
And it's hilarious.
It's got a knob.
Like you can turn it up or down on the fly.
And the thing will make the whole freaking car shake.
It's pretty ridiculous.
I never really, for whatever reason,
I'm totally sidebar here, just unrelated.
But like I never thought about putting a sub
in an air-cooled Porsche.
So it is an interesting twist.
Yeah, there's not a lot of cabin space to really move air.
Yeah, dude.
But I mean, it works.
You feel it.
So maybe that's the solution to all these noises.
That reminds me.
I had a buddy in high school who had an old Ford Windstar.
I think it was.
Maybe it was even older.
It might have been like an old caravan.
And he did the same thing.
Put a giant subwoofer in the back.
It was a classic.
Like the windows would ride a lot of it.
And I'll never forget that he put a paint ladder
and paint buckets in the back to make it look like
it was a painting van.
And someone still saw the subwoofer peeking out
from under the tarp and ended up stealing
the whole thing, breaking the window in.
That was back when he used to steal stereo.
I remember you used to take your faceplate off the stereo
and would anytime you went in the store
because people would jet your car just to get the stereo.
So behind me, you can see this built-in bookcase thing.
And unfortunately, we can't see what I'm getting ready
to talk about.
But I have one of the proudest moments of my life.
It was in my first car.
And I don't know, maybe I turned 17.
And I begged my dad, I really want a system put into my car.
And so I ended up getting one of those removable faceplate
head units.
And I had, I think, an 8.
What was the car?
Infinity G20, which is effectively a Nissan.
And dude, I mean, that car, I put that car through sheer hell.
And it just kept going.
I mean, I took it off road mudding.
I mean, and I'm not even kidding you.
I don't know, I actually, for a hot second,
man, God, we're bouncing all over the place.
Hot second, maybe a couple of years ago,
I started hunting around for one because I'm like,
dude, they got to be like three grand at this point.
I mean, it was in 1991.
Dude, 1987, 1987, Honda Prelude.
That was the car my brother and I shared.
And we still, to this day, look for a manual five-speed Honda
Prelude with cloth seats.
I mean, 112 horsepower, I'm pretty sure it had.
What a colossal crushing disappointment it would be
to get behind the wheel of it today.
And you'd drive it for 10 minutes and be like,
why did I buy that?
But it's still strong.
I disagree.
I think you'd be the on-down memory lane
and you'd love every minute of it.
So those cars, my girlfriend in high school had one.
I loved driving that car.
And that thing is slow as hell,
second only to the period Civic.
So not the SI.
But remember, that thing right there, it was dangerous slow.
Like you couldn't, you better not pull out in front of traffic
because that thing would not go.
Anyway.
Every accident was from behind.
And it had like a little cargo bay.
And at that point in time,
I guess I was small enough to ride in it.
It was the most uncomfortable situation my buddy had one.
Anyway, I'm going back to where I started.
On that bookcase, you can't see it,
but I still have the head unit from when I was 16 years old.
I don't know how the hell.
Yeah, I found it in my parents attic.
Like when my dad died,
we'd start going through all that stuff and it was in a box.
And I don't know why I had put it in a box.
But anyway, it's pretty amazing to look at and think about
what that head unit has seen in terms of,
if an object could actually remember its experiences,
that head unit had been the hell and back.
This is a G rated podcast.
But the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's seen a lot.
It's seen a lot.
Let's just say I was a different dude.
I was a different dude in my younger years.
I don't know if I believe that well.
I don't know if I believe that.
I'll tell you, man, the reason you still have that
is because those things were literally worth their weight in gold.
And we protected those like our wallets.
And so I'm sure that even though you sold the car
or whatever happened to the car,
you packed that away because it has this intrinsic value.
It probably has those cool LEDs.
It would do like the little animations.
Like when you started the car up and you thought it was sort of flipping awesome.
I had that plus my vanilla Roma trees.
It would hang from my rear view.
Oh man, all right.
I bought some recently.
I bought some recently and I hung one in my garage off my cabinet.
Just to enjoy the odor.
Never would I put it in a car these days, but you know.
It brings you back.
It brings you back.
And here we are when we talk about putting stereos in the cars we own now.
The worst thing you can ever do in Porsche ownership
is to put an aftermarket like LED LCD stereo with a faceplate
in one of these cars.
You try to rip that out and put in like a whatever, a blouse.
How about on the related note, the opinion of like you see this,
sometimes somebody's talking about, hey, I'd like the head unit.
Anybody have recommendations on the kind of stereo to put in my XYZ Porsche?
And this is generally in Facebook.
I mean, because I'm a boomer and that's where I hang.
But you get guys the pile on like, I don't need any music.
It's the flat six beautiful sounds.
That's all I need.
And I'm always like, dude, I mean, I hear you.
But if you have a stereo, you can always make the choice.
So sometimes if you just want to hear the motor, turn the thing off.
Maybe you want to listen to some tunes on a three hour road trip.
So what do you think, man?
Do you think it's head unit or do you think it's your purist?
And you would never taint your Porsche with a high end stereo system?
I think it 100% has to do with the driving you do.
On the back roads here, I do listen to the car.
That's my therapy.
But if I do go for a longer drive, I'm all about listening to the stereo.
As a matter of fact, well, I'm going to go one further and lose the rest of the audience
that have already clicked off this podcast because we're talking about faceplates on a
they're like, we're talking about poor.
I'm looking for Porsche content here.
What the hell is wrong with these guys?
I know, dude, I'll throw in my earbuds.
And I will like, if I'm on the highway in both the Boxster and the 911 and I have a slog,
I'll throw my earbuds in because it's loud on, you know, both of my my cars are loud on the road.
And I just, I kind of filter out the thumb.
And so if I'm just putting down miles, yeah, I'll even wear earbuds.
So I'm like, apparently not a driver.
Now, now our safety police listeners would tell you that that isn't that's a no, no,
because you are you can't hear the traffic around you.
I'm a I'm a bad boy.
What can I say?
You know me.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, let's get back on task here.
Somehow climb out of this pit that we fell into and talk about let's talk about some of the failure
points between the coups, the Targas and the convertibles.
These are very general.
Some of them span generations.
But something to consider, like if you're thinking to yourself, I really want a coup,
but they're too expensive.
I'm looking at this Targa, like it's pretty much the same thing.
You know, what do I look at?
I think when it comes to 911 coups, the big thing that you have to consider are the rain gutters.
And water collecting around the windows and the seals.
For coups, I find especially the early ones and I am a victim of this.
If you're especially your rear window, if your rear window seals perish, it lets water in,
which then goes under the parcel shelf.
And then that water goes down the back of the seats beneath the carpet and the cushions,
and then puddles in the seat pans, and then rust happens.
And any, I would say every 911 I've owned before 993, this has happened.
And I remember one time, I'll never forget this.
It was when I had my 911 SC, I had my girlfriend now wife in the car with me,
and we stopped at a gas station because I heard what I thought was sloshing.
It sounded like someone had put a aquarium tank in the back of my car and I couldn't figure it out.
It had sat out overnight in the rain and I pulled over to gas station and slid my seat forward
and put my hand on the carpet behind the driver's seat and my hand went underwater.
Maybe two and a half inches of water sitting there.
And I was like, I didn't understand why that happened.
I didn't understand the idea of this is back in my early 20s.
So I would say coupe that happens and then 993 is very,
very common to rust at the bottom corners of your windshields.
Have you seen that too?
Yeah, I had that.
So you got to pull the seals and you got to get like surface rust repair.
And these days, quite frankly, I just don't look.
It was surface.
So there's that.
And along these lines, I just want to say this to one, two, three, four,
four sunroofs I've had on my Porsches have failed in some way, shape, or form, right?
So generally the cable snap or something and it's not a fun job to have it repaired.
But if I'm somebody who's looking to get in the scene and maybe I'm looking at 993s,
I would just say that you need to count on some sort of sunroof work unless somebody has
done it before you.
And my 993 right now, there are two little clips.
So there's, I guess, a wind dam that pops up.
You open the sunroof and there's a flap that pops up.
And I guess it's for aerodynamics, I don't know.
But now when I go to close it, one of the clips has broken.
So I'm driving and yeah, dude, I'm driving, I pop it open, it's great.
And then I, you know, I'm like, oh, it's, well, it's, it's getting cold or whatever.
And I start to close it and it will not, like that flap will not pop down and so it'll catch.
So now I'm driving 70 miles an hour.
I've got to reach up out of the window and then I close it and I hold that flap down manually.
And it will, like, close.
But the problem is, is you're talking about squash in your finger.
Like literally you got to move it at the last minute.
So anyway, I did do that same thing.
Yeah, but when we're talking about open air experience and sunroof versus sunroof delete,
I mean, that's just something you want to think about because it's not a cheap fix.
Anytime something happens with those sunroofs.
And this pissed me off.
The headliner, there's a zipper, I guess they use to access the motor assembly to repair it.
And every time I've seen that, like the damn, the mechanic gets grease
where the zipper closes.
And so forever you will have this slick spot on your, your headliner.
I have been upside down accessing that to replace a sunroof motor.
And when I had my 993.
So I share your pain on that.
But sunroof, solidly a sunroof guy.
I'm just going to say that.
Yeah.
So there's a, there's a little peek into the fact that, you know, maybe you do enjoy having
a little sky above your head.
And so maybe Targa is a good thing for you.
Let's move on to the, the Cabrio Lazaro quick and some of the things to watch out for early
9-11 cabs had plastic rear windows.
Same thing goes for early boxsters.
You know, I can't remember if the 944 Cabrio Lazaro had plastic rear windows or not.
But anyways, over time, the yellow, they crack, they always crack.
Here's the thing.
This is a rule of thumb.
If you keep a 9-11 convertible long enough, every single cab owner has to fix the roof at least once.
On the, whether it's a window or where it folds, you have a break in the actual fabric.
Or honestly, with the 996s, 997, 991s, you can have microswitches failing,
some of the hydraulic leaks, clogged drains.
On the convertibles, really important to keep your rain gutters and your drains clear.
Because water will get into the cabin and it will fry your ECU.
Don't ask me how I know.
And so that's, but outside of that, the cab tops, I mean, if well kept, they're pretty waterproof.
They say don't go through car washes, you know, touchless car washes, but
I have in the past and they do pretty well.
So Targas, I alluded to a little bit earlier when it comes to some of the failure points.
Every Targa owner I have has either just restored their Targa top or needs to restore their Targa top.
And that is something that I think with the seals, they dry, they shrink,
and you get this squeaking as you drive.
Now with you, if you park it in your garage and you're just busting around for day trips and stuff,
you might just keep your Targa top off well, if you end up getting one.
You can get some in the 60 to 80s Targas, you can get some rust around the bar,
but it's the leaky tops that are the big thing.
Those early Targas with the zip out rear window, it's like all plastic.
It's just beautiful.
That's when I fell in love with long hoods seeing those 93, 993 and 997.
The Targas went to this, I don't, I'm going to fully admit, I don't understand the allure,
but it's a giant sunroof.
It says it's a giant glass panel that slides back.
And those also can jam and they're very expensive to fix when those are in that class.
Have you ever driven one of those?
Negative, but along those lines, the 993 Targa, same deal.
So my mechanic who has since retired, he was like, I won't even work on them.
Because when they break, they are such a bitch to even work on.
So he's like, man, I mean, if you buy one, you got to find another shop to work on it.
So I imagine that's the case with the other, that you're just talking about the 997.
But here's the thing, man.
I mean, real quick to touch on it before I lose track of this, like the modern Targas.
Dude, I think you watch one of those open with all the moving parts and it looks very heavy
as they move.
I just think that's an accident waiting to happen.
Something's going to break.
So A, own it under CPO or B, I mean, I would never buy one.
Plus, they go for stupid money, man.
Well, we're going to transition to that in one second about values and kind of the community
perception of these three models.
But I agree.
I actually, I personally think that if you're going to buy a Targa,
the 991 and newer Targas are the most beautiful cars.
And that's essentially why they're so expensive is because they look beautiful.
Porsche did such a good job integrating the classic cues of Targa into the modern 911 shape.
But if you, I encourage anyone to go and watch a YouTube video on a Targa roof going up and
down because owners never see it because they're in the car.
It is this Transformers, it's beautiful to watch.
It's like kind of a dance about all these moving parts and things folding.
And it's like, you know, it's like an automatic convertible, but it's a Targa roof.
I understand that they're actually pretty reliable.
I mean, I don't know what they cost when they break.
I'm sure it's horrific.
But I think overall, because you look at that and you're like, well, that's going to break.
But I've heard that they're pretty reliable, but the big issue with the early Targas,
and by that I mean the 991 Targas of the new body style,
is that there was a lot of wind buffeting.
When you had the top down, there was a lot of wind buffeting in the cabin over 50 miles an hour.
And that really annoyed a lot of people.
Porsche came out with, I think they might have changed the mirrors or they changed something.
Maybe some of the airflow was changed on the cabin.
I hear it's better in the 992s, but unexpected, but the wind buffeting is kind of an issue from what I hear.
So let's transition into values, Will.
Anyone looking for these cars will see that in almost every generation,
coups command a premium. Would you agree with that?
For sure.
Yeah. For all the reasons we described, right?
It's, they're the classic shape that has remained unchanged as more of an evolution
throughout the years. And I would, I'm trying to think if there's any, I mean,
take spiders out of it and things like that where like, you know, they're designed and,
you know, they're very different. But I would say that outside of,
I would say every generation convertibles are
less. And especially as I talked about before the 991s, they're sometimes significantly less.
Like a 993 going for 80 or 90, $100,000, you can get a convertible for 55.
I know because there's one down the street for me for sale.
The 80s convertibles, 20, 30% less.
Once you get into the 99s, I'd say the 991s, I feel like the Delta is a little different.
It's more like 10% because I think that the shapes are pretty similar.
And then the newer ones, I don't really know. But if you're looking for value,
you want to get into the cheapest 911 in the world right now, Will, go find yourself a 996 cab.
You can pick those up for like 22 grand right now where the coupes are 30, 32.
I mean, it's interesting. I had the chance to drive a buddy's 996 cab and I did a review on it
somewhere buried deep in my channel. But I found it to be a charming, fun car. He had done the
exhaust. He had done the short shift kit on it. And, you know, it's in one of those where you
got to embrace it for what it is. But it was fun. I felt like, you know, after I drove the car,
I was like, man, you know, there's a lot of value for the money here.
I think in a world where there are no deals with Porsche, I actually think that that is
absolutely as long as you get it checked out and amazing by your dog's part of the podcast.
He's walking around the background. Yeah. Yeah. She's, you know, she's cool.
If you're listening, then just know that on the video, you can see my dog wandering around.
Yeah. I was thinking about what you said about the 993 cabs. Like there was a turquoise,
blue, metallic cab. I don't know that it was tip. But sometimes I get these folks that reach out to
me on social media and they just want to talk or whatever. And for whatever reason, I was talking
to this guy and he, like that car sat on the market and presumably because it was a cab.
Show me a coupe in that color. It's flying off the shelves and guys are probably trying to,
like, compete and pay over asking. And this car just sat, man. And I just think that that is
very telling about how people look at these cabs. I think that if it was a tip, I think it was
probably more that. I'm sorry again for folks that drive TipTronic.
It's a double whammy. It's a double whammy. It's, and tips are, I've driven a 993 tip and it was
shit. It was, it was terrible. I'm not that unique. And you know, I just think all of this kind of
lack of enthusiasm and lukewarm feeling. I mean, this is why, like to the average enthusiast,
this is why what we're talking about here, the cab versus the targo versus the coupe,
the values reflect, you know, the differential between each platform. And I just think it's
because, you know, true enthusiasts are on fire for the coupe. Other folks are like, okay,
targo is a cool option. And then like, I don't know, it's this, I've never explored the subculture
of cab lovers, especially like call it G body cab lovers. I imagine there's a close group of people
that are like cab or die. But man, I mean, it's just, you know, it's like you bring up a 993
cab with a tip and I'm like, I'll give it like three seconds thought. I just move on.
Yeah, a buddy of mine just picked up a 996 stick convertible, and he got it for a hell of a deal,
like sub 20, I believe. And I am excited to try it. Because again, if the folks are getting into
owning a Porsche, how can I own a 911 for under 30 grand? That is a fantastic proposition, for sure.
And that's it, man. Like, so to, I want to kind of,
to that end, you see somebody who is scraping and they've been saving and they have the dream
of the 911 and they're, you can tell it's a real reach for them and they, and you hear about them
being able to get in and get a cab. You know, I'm just happy for them. And truly all judgment and
jokes aside, I mean, that's awesome because they do offer a way for somebody who has always wanted
one who maybe has a little bit more like limited resources. What a great way for them to get into
the hobby and they're so proud. So I mean, there is a place for Derek in my view.
Yeah. And I would even say that in the 996 generation, I don't have too much experience
with 993 cabs. 996 generation, those cars drive very, very similarly to a coupe.
I'm talking about driving. I mean, you do have a little bit of cowl shake for sure,
but it's a much stiffer car than earlier air cooled generations. And in the 997, I owned a cab
in a 997. And I thought it drove 95% like a coupe would. What we're trying to do here in this
podcast is just stratify the three different types of cars for people that don't know the
difference and don't are saying, well, Jesus, there's a huge difference in value between the
convertible and the coupe like, or the targa and the coupe like, which way should I go? Is it really
that bad? The answer is no. I mean, well, outside of an 80s 911 cab, but outside of those two things,
no, they're all great cars. And if you go into them and you just, especially if that's your first
911, yeah, it's fantastic. Dude, I mean, and that's the thing about this hobby. I mean,
like I go to the Golden Corral buffet. I think COVID killed Golden Corral. Do you have those up in
the Northeast? That's, I think that's more of a Southern thing. We used to have endless buffet,
all you can eat. And that's what it was. Yeah. Anyway, so with the germs and such,
I think at least in my town, like they went under big time during COVID, but at any rate,
the analogy, I'm trying to create this analogy. How are you going to combine that and this?
All right. So you're walking down the buffet and you've eaten everything you really like,
and then you see something like, you know, it's shrimp and grits and it's got some hot dog thrown
in there. And maybe there's some like kale or some shit. And you're like, I don't really want this,
but I'm standing here and I'm kind of tired of everything else or I've done everything else.
So let me just look like a little taste here, maybe just, just a little taste. I won't fill
up my plate. So anyway, it's a goofy analogy, but I mean, the point I'm trying to make is
if you're somebody like Derek, you're somebody like me, I mean,
you're trying to collect all these experiences and dip your toe in the water of all these
different options. I mean, I think, I think that's what this episode kind of can be about is just
what are the merits of each of these platforms? What can they bring you? Are they worth experiencing?
And in my view, I mean, I think they're all worth experiencing. So, you know, I want to put a bow
on this and say, I'm not here to hate on any particular platform. I have experience with some,
I don't have experience with others. And I try to stay away from talking about things that I don't,
I haven't actually put my hands on. But those would be my final thoughts, Derek. And then also,
you know, the listeners here, they're, they're very lucky because we also dipped our toe in the
water of late 80s, early 90s, Japanese and subwoofers. So I hope we didn't chase anybody off with that.
I mean, if we could just cover every base in the world, we've certainly solved all the world's
issues in this podcast well. And so this might be the best one yet. No, and I don't know,
I think this one, I'll be shocked if this, if this one really does well, but who knows, it's,
you never know the content creation. If nothing else, the comment section on the YouTube page
will be alive and well with people debating the merits of all. All right, my man, well, Derek,
thank you for the time. It is always a pleasure. And I'll look forward to our next episode.
Yeah, buddy. Have a good week. Thanks, everyone.
Yep.
About this episode
A lively debate unfolds as Will and Derek compare the Porsche 911 Coupe, Targa, and Cabriolet, discussing their personal preferences and experiences. They delve into the history and technical definitions of each model, exploring the driving dynamics, aesthetics, and common issues associated with each variant. With anecdotes from their own ownership journeys, they highlight the pros and cons of each style, touching on market values and the emotional connections enthusiasts have with these iconic cars. Expect a mix of humor, technical insights, and passionate opinions.
Original notes
In this episode of Rennthusiast Radio, Derek and Will dive into one of the longest-running debates in Porsche ownership: Coupe vs. Targa vs. Cabriolet.
Will is a lifelong coupe guy who’s suddenly catching Targa fever, while Derek argues for the open-top experience. Together they cover:
- How each 911 body style drives across generations
- Common failure points and maintenance costs
- Why coupes always seem to hold more value
- The truth about leaky Targas and flexy Cabs
- Which models are the best buys today
You’ll also hear stories from real 911 ownership, from 993s and G-bodies to Boxsters and 996 Cabs, plus a few tangents about teenage stereos and subwoofers.
If you’re shopping for your first 911 or just want to understand what makes each roof style unique, this episode is for you.
Subscribe on YouTube and follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
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