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Darryl Woods & Prosecutor Kym Worthy on Forgiveness, Second Chances, and The Meaning of Justice
Darryl Woods & Prosecutor Kym Worthy on Forgiveness, Second Chances, and The Meaning of Justice
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About this episode
Darryl Woods—an activist and former prisoner who served 29 years after a drug deal led to a death—shares how faith and forgiveness shaped his life after release. He connects with prosecutor Kym Worthy, who fought to keep him incarcerated but later found common ground through shared church ties and a mutual commitment to justice. They debate what forgiveness means in law and in life, emphasizing accountability, due process, and diversion. The conversation highlights Woods’ joy reuniting with his son, and Worthy’s conviction integrity and mediation programs.
Topics:
forgiveness and avoiding bitterness
second chances after long incarceration
due process and conviction integrity
prosecutor accountability and sentencing fairness
criminal justice diversion programs
restorative mediation for juveniles
faith as a driver for service
reentry and family reunification
meeting people where they are
busting stereotypes about exonerees
In this episode of DRIVE, Jim shares the story of Darryl Woods, who spent 29 years in prison for a drug transaction that resulted in a death, before becoming a Detroit minister, activist, and public official, and the unlikely friendship he formed with Wayne County prosecutor Kym Worthy, who originally opposed his release. Darryl explains how faith and the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. shaped his commitment to forgiveness, rejecting bitterness, and serving others. Kym discusses accountability, her creation of a conviction integrity unit, and diversion efforts that have kept over 25,000 people—mainly juveniles—out of the system. They reflect on faith, service, and Darryl’s joyful reunion with his family after release.
00:00 Forgiveness Over Hate
01:44 First Call With Kym Worthy
05:10 Defining Forgiveness
08:35 Kym On Justice And Mercy
12:11 Joy Of Coming Home
15:55 Giving Back Together
17:43 Meeting Grandson
18:54 Joy In Prevention
23:28 Stories of Faith and Church
26:35 Serving Others With Dignity
31:41 Advice For Leaders At Ford
DRIVE with Jim Farley is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum of Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi and Kristen Mueller with help from Lori Arpin, Angela Brewer, Max Owen-Dunow, Anne Roberts, Samantha Singhal, Darnell Macon, Brandon Kennedy, and Mark Truby.
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Technical
Too Afraid to Ask
Concept
second chances
"So that moment to you is kind of like job well done in a way. Well, I trust him."
Second chances means people can improve after they’ve made mistakes or had a hard time. It’s about giving someone a chance to do better going forward.
“Second chances” is the idea that people can change after wrongdoing or hardship, and that society should allow room for rehabilitation. In a car context, it’s similar to how a well-repaired vehicle can return to reliable service after major issues.
Concept
forgiveness
"Sometimes I worry about him because I think there's a lot on his plate. Sometimes the press will call me, and this is a real life example."
Forgiveness means letting go of anger about something that happened before. It helps people move forward instead of getting stuck in the past.
“Forgiveness” is choosing not to hold a past wrong against someone, often to enable healthier relationships and better outcomes. Analogous to automotive ownership, it’s like moving past a prior repair mistake and focusing on correct diagnosis and proper fixes going forward.
Forgiveness Over Hate
First Call With Kym Worthy
Defining Forgiveness
Kym On Justice And Mercy
Joy Of Coming Home
Giving Back Together
Meeting Grandson
Joy In Prevention
Stories of Faith and Church
Serving Others With Dignity
Advice For Leaders At Ford
Select text to request an explanation
What advice would you give our listeners
as a person who has dealt with so much adversity
about forgiveness?
Well, unforgiveness hurts the person who would not forgive.
Sometimes people struggle with that.
Dr. Kane said, never let a man or woman
bring you so low as to hate them.
And so I believe in not allowing my wounds to get in the way.
And so when I was inside,
I prayed with correction officers.
Hate cannot drive out hate, love can't.
And so I just believe that.
I'm Jim Farley, and this is Drive.
This week, we're taking a different route.
Interesting people walk in and out of our lives every day.
And we often will never know their true stories,
where they come from, what they're made of,
or who helped shape their lives.
I was lucky enough to meet someone not long ago
at a gathering arranged by the mayor of Detroit, Mike Duggins.
That's someone as Daryl Woods,
a minister and activist, a public official,
who spent 29 years in prison
for a drug transaction that resulted in a death.
I wanna share that story of the unlikely rapport
Daryl struck up with the woman
who fought to keep him behind bars,
prosecutor Kim Worthy.
She ultimately lost that battle and she gained a friend.
This is a story about second chances
and the importance of meeting people where they are,
not where they've been.
What were the circumstances when you first met Kim?
It was a phone call first,
and we talked over the phone,
and she was having a conversation.
She didn't know who I was.
Can I say what?
Madam prosecutor, let me be transparent with you.
I said, you opposed my release two times.
Whoa.
And she said, oh, no.
You know, when you have thousands and thousands
of cases there, you don't know.
I said, there's no problem.
I said, if we could do anything to help others,
I'm willing to work with you.
But you saw through all that.
You saw through all that the person she is?
Oh, yes, she had, I watched her do some amazing things.
And so many holding people accountable for their actions.
I see.
It was as she was a powerhouse prosecutor.
Now, she's the head prosecutor now.
Yes, I see.
And Kim, what was your first experience meeting
Daryl?
Pretty much the same, but I remember,
I don't remember the phone call,
but I do remember meeting him in person.
And later I found out we even went to the same church.
Really? Yes.
Okay.
We have the same bishop, same pastor.
And so, although we really see each other at church,
because it's a fairly large church.
And so, I was impressed, let's still tell him now.
I don't know how he keeps all these balls up in the air,
but one thing I have noticed about exonerees
or people that we have given relief to,
because they're not all exonerees we've given relief to
because their main reason,
because their trial was so devoid of justice
that I felt that they deserved a new trial.
And most of them are too old to retry.
What stands out about, there was a lack of bitterness,
the lack of blaming others,
the lack of blame shifting,
taking responsibility for his own actions,
but just the overwhelming,
consistent, tireless mission to help others.
So even though he was in for such a long period of time,
when he got out, and I don't know about day one,
but I can believe what probably was day one,
just willing to give back to others
and being involved in anything that's helpful
for other people.
And it doesn't even have to be people in his same,
they had his same experience.
It could be anybody, it could be someone that's headed
that way, or it could be someone that is,
is definitely in now that he wants to help,
or it could be someone that's not involved,
that's never been involved in crime at all,
but just has that insight and that foresight
to want just to save and to protect.
And to serve and protect,
and not under the auspices of a blue uniform.
Because many people serve and protect,
and they're not law enforcement officials.
And he's one of those people, I mean, it's tireless.
And when I learned that something,
some other project he's gonna take on,
I said, I thought I did a lot.
And I can't handle all those balls in the air.
But just everything that he missed being a father
and being a mentor, it's like he wants to do everything
all the same time to make up for all those years
where he was inside.
You could read it quickly.
Yeah, because when you first meet somebody,
even when I've talked to him now,
and I assume when he talks to anybody,
I said, Darrell, how are you fighting the good fight?
There he goes.
Fighting the good fight.
And he is fighting the good fight.
But I guess the obvious question I would have
for both of you from different perspectives,
but a common experience in a way,
is how do you see forgiveness?
Maybe Darrell, I'll start with you.
What advice would you give our listeners
as a person who has dealt with so much adversity
about forgiveness?
Prosecutor worthy talked about not having bitterness.
It's not being bitter, it's being better.
Unforgiveness hurts the person who would not forgive.
Sometimes people struggle with that.
Dr. King said, never let a man or woman bring you so low
as to hate them.
And so I believe in letting go and letting God
not allow my wounds to get in the way.
And so when I was inside,
I prayed with correction officers.
I talked with them.
I talked to the warden.
I talked, I invited law enforcement officials in there
to try to bridge the gap between law enforcement
and the community because Dr. King talked about
that beloved community.
And hate cannot drive out hate, love can't.
And so I just believe that.
Did you believe in your whole life?
I was raised in Greater Grace Temple,
so I had a seed in me.
There was a poem said,
who would cry for the little boy,
the little boy inside the man?
So inside I knew I was raised properly.
I was our former pastor and a heroic figure
to both of us, Bishop David Ellis.
He was just a legendary man of love and of grace,
even when I got incarcerated, all the way up into his death.
He was there ministering to me and encouraging me.
My grandmothers who raised me,
taught me how to love and to forgive, you know.
But that must have been tested a lot.
When you're tested, did you always see it that way?
When I went to prison very early on,
I was at a fork in the road.
You thought I was gonna be a prisoner
or I was gonna be a man.
It says when I was a child,
I spoke as a child, I understood as a child.
But when you become a man, you put away childish things.
And so when I decided to just dedicate myself to God
and to do the right things, all that stuff went away.
I didn't want to have nothing to do with the streets.
I didn't want, or the elements of the streets.
I just wanted to be a better person.
And I studied Martin Luther King when I was in there,
who was born Michael King.
And this man was a revolutionary leader
because he believed in revolutionary love.
But he decided to love in the midst of all of the hell
that was breaking loose in that time.
And that was redemptive love.
It wasn't crazy or anything of that nature, you know.
And so he said that service is the rent we pay
for the space that we occupy.
And so he was able to go out there
and serve humanity and sacrifices himself
for the greater good, which was love.
I see.
And prosecutor, do you have the same perspective?
I mean, you're executing the law of the United States.
You have this huge, enormous system
with all the humanity involved in it.
What does forgiveness mean for you?
I can't imagine, totally different perspective.
But a totally different perspective.
And I'm a prosecutor.
I'm the prosecutor of the largest county in Michigan,
one of the largest in the country.
So I have to say, a lot of the people,
most of the people that are there deserve to be there.
And let me just say that.
But I'm not naive enough to think that they're,
we're fallible human beings.
I'm not naive enough to think that we always get it right
because we certainly do not.
And that's why I wanted a Conviction Integrity Unit,
one of the first in Michigan.
And because I knew that, you know,
even if you weren't the prosecutor in office at the time,
because most of our cases go back so far, I was not.
But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna take,
take responsibility and accountability
if we don't get it right.
And I don't think any prosecutor's office,
DA's office in this country should be,
to be afraid to look at themselves and their offices
and their prosecutors and their staffs
and law enforcement judges,
everybody that's fallible and can make mistakes.
But the people who are wronged
are people who pay for it for years and years and years,
sometimes of their lives.
Again, there are many people that belong in prison
should never get out.
And we see those kinds of stories
on the news every single day.
But again, even if someone is doing something horrible
and their trial wasn't just,
or the science was wrong,
or law enforcement was flawed, or anything else, still,
even though, and we've had cases like this
in my conviction integrity,
and you think the person is guilty as since still,
but they didn't have the right process,
they didn't have the right due process
that we're supposed to uphold,
then we have to, we have to get it right.
And so what this has taught me,
and really I started to learn this more
when I was on the bench,
even though I've always been a kind of a forgiving person,
prisons are full of people
that wish they could take back five minutes of their lives.
And so when you look beyond what they've done
as we must do when we sentenced,
I believe in holding people accountable and charging fairly.
So, but when it comes to the sentencing part,
unless it's a crime that's statutorily,
we have to give a certain sentence,
you have to take advantage of and take full view
of how they grew up, their educational,
their social experience, how they were raised,
what they were raised in.
And as a judge, you really learn how to do that
and kind of globally sentence someone
to what the sentence should be.
But here's where I think we get it wrong as a country.
Not so much after the crime has been committed
and after someone's been sentenced justly.
We get it wrong at the front end.
I see.
We get it so wrong at the front end.
What does that mean?
That means that we do not invest in people
before they get in trouble or as they get in trouble
or after they've gotten in trouble as a juvenile
and they've traversed that bridge to adult criminality.
We don't get it right, right then and there.
And if we got it right there,
the mass incarceration that everybody talks about
would be much, much less.
People throw around the term mass incarceration,
but you really gotta pick it apart
and see why we have that here.
And I think we as a society get it wrong
like I said at the front end.
And that's why I believe in diversion.
We have in the 20 years that I have been
the elected prosecutor for Wayne County,
we've diverted over 25,000 people
out of the criminal justice system,
mainly juveniles with some adults.
And that means if you commit a lesser crime,
then we've really gotta look at why.
Let's talk about joy for a second.
Daryl, I can't imagine,
I will never have your life experience.
What is it like to have your son and you,
I think your son was 30 years old
when you walked out of prison after decades?
How do you express to the listeners
what you felt in your heart?
What joy meant?
Because I don't think many humans
can feel that kind of complex,
but joyful moment like that.
We don't have those.
Well, it was such a powerful, powerful experience.
He was one years old when I left.
Okay.
And I watched him grow up in there.
And...
How often did he visit you?
He would visit me every month,
at least two or three times a month.
And sometimes five times a month.
And we would talk on the phone almost daily.
I had the opportunity to pray with him,
just to engage with him, to talk with him,
then watch him grow up from being an adolescent
to a younger adult and eventually to adult.
He had joined the NAACP when he was in college.
I was able to help raise a dollar money
so that he can graduate from Michigan State University
without on a dime.
And now he's left, he had left college
and started working for Stanley Black and Decker
and doing very, very fine.
But it was because that I wasn't physically present,
but my presence was there.
That day that I was able to walk out of prison,
that 30 year old cried on my shoulder,
like if he was that one year old when I left.
And he wept like a baby.
And we wept in each other arms
because he prayed for the day, he fought for the day.
That moment was just such a magical thing.
You had the choice to have one person come inside the prison.
That's how it works.
Yes, they come get you.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yes, yes.
And so I chose him.
He came to retrieve his dad out of prison.
We went to the Hudson Cafe first.
He did.
And we enjoyed a waffle, you know?
And I was just shocked.
I was shocked to see Midtown and Downtown and all of that.
It was like a miracle happened there.
And then in some of the neighborhoods,
it was like a shock in there
because it was like Atomic Bomb had hit that, you know?
Midtown used to be the cast quarters.
But to see that transformation,
it was just like amazing and experiencing with my son.
And then.
What did you talk about with him?
Well, you talked about everything with him.
Absolutely.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
We talked about just serving others
and giving back to others.
Like Christmas times, he had an amazing mother
who afforded me the opportunity to keep that relationship
and maintain that relationship with him
while through my entire incarceration period.
And so we talked about manhood.
He got married at the age of 20 inside college.
I remember you telling me that.
But the things that we talk about
is just how can we help others?
He's working with me now.
I'm doing a program inside the juvenile detention facility
called Credible Messengers.
And what we do is have a team of mentors going in there.
And it's ironic that she talked about those domestic issues
because we just did a family mediation there.
And when we did that mediation, the young man was in there.
He had a situation with his mom
and he had a $200 bond.
And so we gave the mother the $200 to bond her son out
and put some wraparound service around there.
But those things that we talk about
and we work together to do what we can
to be a blessing to others.
Like I said, when I was incarcerated,
he would bring $10 in extra change
when he became an adult on a visit.
And I didn't know this for a while.
Some folks would come up and say thank you to him.
I'm like, you know, thank you.
He would see a mother, a single mother out there.
Waiting for a visit.
Waiting to come in for a visit.
And he would give them the $10 extra change
to be able to come and get something out of the vending machine.
And so he's such a remarkable young man.
And I better speak about my daughter too.
Don't leave her out.
We don't want to get in trouble here.
Beautiful, beautiful soul.
She went into nursing.
She's married.
She's about to have my second grandchild.
Was she there that first day?
She wasn't there the first day
because she was kind of intimidated by the process.
Yes, yes.
But she was, she was, she wasn't there at the prison,
but we joined together because she had my then three-year-old grandson
who I never allowed to come inside a prison.
Oh.
I said, I don't, I do not want to see.
Why did you feel that way?
Because my two children, they grew up being pat down
by officers for years and years.
And it was so evasive.
They touch you and you have to take off your shoes
and you have to open up your mouth and all that.
They have to go through your hair and all of that.
I didn't want my grandson to experience
what my two children had to experience for many years.
And I just said, Lord, you're going to have to do something
about this situation because I need to see my grandson.
And so my grandson, Armando, he,
A tree, you'd never seen him.
I had never seen him until face to face.
I seen pictures.
You know, he called me granddad on the phone
and we talked often.
And so when we had that face to face encounter
was just such a magical experience.
He's now 10 years old.
He goes with me everywhere.
Prosecutor, how do you, when you hear Darrell's story,
when you think about that moment,
culmination of all those years,
what's your perspective on the jury?
What do you feel is a prosecutor at that moment?
So I didn't know him then when he was released.
But, you know, again, just kind of a different perspective.
My joy comes from the process of making,
being successful at making sure
someone doesn't have a criminal record in the first place.
Like I said, I'm really big on that.
And when we're able to help someone
navigate their way out, we have a mediation program
in the juvenile court from my office called Talk It Out
where we bring in mediators for people,
for juveniles who are charged with crimes
of a kind of a lesser offense.
And the victim has to be a part of it.
When you say mediators, those are people.
We bring in trained mediators into our program.
And what would a mediator do in that circumstance?
They mediate between the victim and the people.
Oh, I see.
And the parents.
So they're seeing all these situations lifetime at them.
And so they have to follow what the mediator does.
Of course, the judge has to sign up on it.
I see.
So we do a similar thing too.
But it comes from seeing people who have,
like I said, there's a difference between someone
who's exonerated, who didn't commit the crime at all,
and someone who I believe committed the crime,
but because of our justice system, I wanted to work.
And if something is done wrong,
they deserve another chance as well.
So, but still, we just wanna make sure
that when I see them out here, mendering,
when I see them out, you know, coming,
they come when I speak, they'll go to churches.
When I come to events, they're always coming up.
They quite frankly have my back.
And that sounds very odd.
For a prosecutor's office.
And that's, but you know, they have,
so the joy that I see when they get themselves together,
some of the men that he works with
and some of the exonerees and people we've given him
a leave to have been such a help to the cause of justice
that we're trying to make sure that we do in Wayne County.
I want people in Wayne County to believe
that when we charge someone with a crime,
we fully believe they committed it.
We're gonna do everything we can
to make sure that they are held accountable for it.
But on the other end, when we do our diversionary work,
I want people to know about that too.
When we have our situation
where people are walking out of prison
because of our CIU program,
and sometimes we don't want everybody to know
because we will follow the will of whoever's coming in.
A lot of people don't want that attention
and they don't want people to know
that this is what happens.
Some do, some don't.
But again, it also comes from knowing people like Daryl,
and I will call him and he'll tell you,
I'll have an idea.
And I sometimes have some strange ideas
and I say, and I'll call him, what do you think about this?
Do you think it's crazy?
And most of the time he'll say, no,
it's something we should try.
And I wanna do a new program.
I have a couple of programs that are coming to fruition
that no one in this country has been doing.
Two programs in specifically.
And I've called him and said, what do you think about this?
We're gonna do this, or we've got the funding,
but we didn't get as much as we wanted.
What parts of this do you think I should keep?
So that moment to you is kind of like job well done in a way.
Well, I trust him.
I trust him.
He's not gonna lie to me.
There's been a couple of times,
not very many times when I've been wrong,
but he told me I was wrong.
And, but generally it works because I know that he is
coming at it from a clear heart
and a clearest perspective with no agenda,
except for it to be helpful
and do the things that he's been talking about.
Sometimes I worry about him
because I think there's a lot on his plate.
Sometimes the press will call me,
and this is a real life example.
People don't think he should be a police commissioner.
I'm like, why not?
I mean, or they think, well,
because he has served time in prison,
that he's gonna have a jaded perspective
and doesn't want anybody to be held accountable.
And that is so not true.
Most of the exonerees want people to be held accountable,
the right people to be held accountable.
And when the wrong people are not held accountable,
they're upset with that too,
because they want safe streets, safe schools,
safe churches, safe workplaces,
safe areas to work and play.
And they want that as well.
So they also hold me accountable
to make sure that that happens as well.
So that's what I like.
The stereotypes have been busted with this man.
So all of that together has made me
have either a different perspective
or they have solidified what I thought
when everybody thought I was crazy.
Well, I have to follow up on that for both of you,
which is it's interesting to me,
maybe for the listeners too,
that you're both deeply people of faith.
So where did that come from?
Maybe you start with you, Darrell.
Where did your faith come from?
It sounded like it came while you were in prison,
but no before.
You said you had that seed of a little kid,
but where did this faith come from?
As a young kid, I remember those
Grady Grace Temple rolls, eating that,
and Dave, my grandmother gave me money
to put in a pot to pay by time.
She would give me a dollar.
I'd take 50 cents to the candy store.
That's what I thought she meant for me to do.
No.
50 cents.
And it was, but it was just a beautiful family fun time.
And I drifted from that.
So was it an awakening when you got to prison?
When I got, it was a no brainer when I got to prison.
Oh, I see.
And it wasn't a jailhouse religion either.
I was able to read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations
and from Revelations to Genesis on many times.
Bishop David Ellis would send me letters
and he would come in and see us.
And so I had some spiritual mentors,
even some of the old school guys that was in there,
that was for the right things.
So it came down to those relationships.
The relationships.
I see, I see.
How about you, your faith?
Same, I believe it or not,
I don't think even Darryl knows
as I grew up in Episcopalian.
Oh, really?
And then my parents, for some inexplicable reason,
became a part of the Baptist church.
Oh, really?
And then when I went to Michigan for undergrad,
I didn't go to church for a long time.
And then I met some people.
And well, even before in high school,
I was part of the whole Jesus freak culture
when I was in high school too.
And so when I came to college, I didn't go to college,
I didn't go to church for a couple of years,
maybe more than a couple of years.
Met some people, went to a small church that folded
and I was looking for a church home.
And it's a very long story,
but Bishop David Ellis was a friend of John O'Hare,
who was my boss at the time when I was assistant.
I'd never heard of great-of-greats,
I didn't know who he was and looked back
and I'd see him there.
And then I got invited to the church
and I walked into the church and I'm like,
what the heck is all of this going on?
You know, the praise dancing, the singing,
the speaking in tongues.
I was like, it was very scary.
And so, because great-of-greats is a church
of the apostolic faith.
And so, I went there, I was respectful,
they were very, very nice to me.
And then he supported my first campaign
when I ran for judge and he didn't really know me
from Adam Southcat.
I started coming to the church and the next,
the second time I walked to that church,
I knew I was home.
The second time, the first time was very overwhelming.
But my faith has given me the comfort
that when I am doing something difficult,
because I believe it's the right thing,
I'm not afraid of it.
I'd love to ask you both, let's start with you, prosecutor,
how, what's your perspective on serving others?
I mean, you've dedicated your life
in a way to serving the law,
but also serving others, listening carefully to you.
Yeah, being the prosecutor, you know, assistant,
and now the elected prosecutor is my job,
is not my life, but it prevails my life as it should,
because I'm always thinking about things.
But by the same token, you serve others in many,
and I think we're serving people
by making sure we have a just office.
Yeah, they have been amazing to be able to help mothers
who have been impacted by violence,
who need their voices heard,
and to sit down with them with an empathetic ear
and try to help solve those problems for them,
but not knowing that they're gonna always
have the pain with them, you know, it's been amazing.
And to go inside the prisons and say, hey, change can happen,
and that you don't have to be a prisoner.
When I was inside, I refused to call myself a prisoner,
I was Daryl Woods.
They used to call me 212752.
I rejected that notion because my bishop said,
I was a child of God, I'm not a number,
I'm not a statistic, I'm a human being,
and but people have to understand their worth.
You know, that don't mean people get out of jail free card.
That don't mean you don't have to go through the things
and receive a punishment for your actions,
but you can't change your life
and you can't contribute to the society.
And it's just been a high honor of mine
to be able to have the relationship
that I have with prosecutor worthy,
and so many others who have contributed positively
in my life.
And I'm just a sum total of all those who have poured into me
and have given me a chance.
But you know what, your question is everything.
It's everything.
It could solve every single society that we have.
It's everything.
I completely agree with you.
It's like, it's not enough.
It's not enough today.
We live in a society where taking and giving
are kind of differential between those two.
Getting everything for ourselves and not doing anything else.
Yes, and I'm totally motivated after meeting people like yourselves
who are true leaders and define their success
and their identity and serving other people.
And yet, you know, something's wrong in a way
that we don't have more expectations across all people
who are fortunate for that kind of expectation to serve others.
I don't know.
You know, it feels like if we spent enough time with each other,
we'd probably be able to diagnose that there was some set of people
in our lives that ingrain that.
Of course.
But I don't know why others haven't been graced like that.
When you don't look at the homeless man or woman on the street
and say, oh, please, get away.
And it's not, they're not going to go up to them.
I'm going to do everything I can to help.
I knew every homeless people that was in the back of the courthouse
that leaned up against that heater at night.
And they looked out for me as I walked out of the courthouse
to get to my car.
I mean, don't look at the immigrant or the homeless person
or the abused child or the person who's serving time
or the exoneree.
If you don't look at them with disdain and, you know,
I'm better than you are because you're not better than they are.
That's right.
And if I don't want to help them as a human being,
then something's wrong.
Something's wrong.
So that needs to be a, to state the obvious,
that needs to be a society norm in our country.
And it's not.
It's not yet.
We're all working to make that expectation.
That could be us tomorrow.
Yeah, Bishop David Ellis said this.
I never forgot this decades ago.
He said, never look down on a person unless you try to pick them up.
And that stuck with me.
I see.
You know, and if we can live that out.
And there has to be willingness.
It has to be a willingness to listen, to absorb,
to want to do something.
There has to be that willingness, that personal commitment.
I think that's, maybe that's, hopefully there's a listener out there
that makes that choice listening to both of you.
Yeah. And you know, you see the athletes, you see the lions,
you see the athletes, you see people with means.
And they stand out because you knew that they were raised right,
or they, they appreciate their privilege and they don't take their privilege for granted.
And they want to help others.
And that there's always heartening when you see that,
especially people who do it with, with no agenda,
with no agenda at all.
They just do it because they're athletes and others out here,
quiet and billionaires and millionaires out here doing things quietly
that no one knows about.
And you love those stories.
I totally.
Well, I have to ask you a same question.
I ask all my guests individually, which is, you know,
what advice would you give me as a head of four?
I'll start with you, prosecutor.
Gosh, just what we were talking about.
You know, and sometimes people need, and I know that,
that your company is doing things for people outside of themselves.
And sometimes, even despite what I just said,
you need to let people know that people need to know that there's a heart and a core there.
And we're not just about profit and doing everything,
but we're also about making sure that everybody has that opportunity and that chance.
And you're doing that.
And I know because I read up on you.
And so letting people know you're doing and doing more of it.
And encouraging and perhaps even maybe, maybe not commentating,
but encourage your everybody that works for you to do the same.
Pick something.
We can't help everybody, but everybody can help someone.
And everybody, everybody can do something.
So to me, especially when you have large corporations like Ford,
if you would incentivize, and incentivize doesn't always mean money.
Yeah.
It could mean taking a day off here a couple hours to do something
and, you know, set the tone from the top.
Just a little nudge.
Yeah, set the tone from the top.
And celebrate those that you know are doing those kinds of things,
even though they may not want to be celebrated,
but just letting everybody know just that.
I think it would be very, very important.
Reach out.
Reach out and help other people.
Darrell, what advice should you give me?
I would say stay connected to this work and know that there are people who need your voice,
who need your tie.
And so when you leave this earth, you leave here empty,
knowing that you have fulfilled the purpose that God has called you to do.
I really appreciate that advice.
And this has been one of the most rewarding conversations I've had in my life.
Wow.
Wonderful to meet two people who have had such an impact on so many people.
I heard a great lecture, the difference between optimism and hope.
Optimism is kind of a passive thing, but hope is an active thing.
I would describe this conversation in both of you as incredibly hopeful conversation.
High expectations for ourselves and for everyone else to do the right thing,
but I've really enjoyed this hopeful conversation.
I've enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you.
Amazing conversation.
Thank you.
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