BMW is a well-known German luxury car brand. In this discussion, it’s used as an example of European companies that partnered with China to build cars.
A joint venture is when two companies team up to work on the same project. In car manufacturing, it often means a foreign brand partners with a local company to build cars in that country.
China is discussed as the dominant force reshaping the global auto market, especially through local production and growing domestic demand for Chinese-built vehicles. The hosts contrast earlier European brand presence with the current visibility of Chinese cars on the road.
The Audi A8 is Audi’s top luxury car. The point here is that, years ago, people preferred the version made in Germany more than the version made in China.
A welding facility is where the factory joins metal parts together to form the car body. Using robots helps keep the welds consistent from car to car.
Term
shut lines
“Shut lines” are the visible panel gaps and alignment lines where body panels meet, like doors, hoods, and trunk lids. Tight, consistent shut lines are a key quality metric because they affect fit, appearance, and how well panels seal.
Term
quality of the paint
Paint quality in automotive manufacturing includes uniform coverage, correct gloss/color, and minimal defects like runs, orange peel, or contamination. It’s checked late in the line because paint defects are expensive to fix after assembly.
Chery is a Chinese automaker the host discusses as expanding its lineup and aiming to become a major “group” presence in the UK. In this segment, Chery is positioned as building multiple model lines (including iCar and Leaps Pass) rather than a single flagship.
A plug-in hybrid is a car that uses both a gas engine and an electric motor. You can charge it by plugging it in, so it can drive on electricity for a while before the gas engine takes over.
I can’t tell which car “7” refers to from the snippet alone. If you share the full car name (make and model), I can explain what it is and why it’s being discussed.
A “quad motor” EV has four electric motors. Using four motors can help the car accelerate hard and grip the road better by controlling power more precisely.
They talk about the new Volkswagen Polo, a popular small hatchback. They’re excited about the updated look and especially the retro-inspired interior details.
Term
digital cassette recorder
They mention a “digital cassette recorder,” which is basically a modern version that looks like an old cassette player. It’s used as a retro-style design detail in the car’s interior.
Term
rewind the tape back in with a pencil
They’re talking about old cassette tapes in car stereos. If the tape got stuck, you could rewind it by hand using something like a pencil.
Brand
VW
VW is short for Volkswagen. The discussion is about how Volkswagen is trying to make newer cars feel like the older, more characterful VW style.
A touch screen system is the car’s main screen you tap to control things. The host prefers physical buttons for some functions because they feel more solid and easier to use.
This is the car’s climate control—how it heats the cabin and moves air around. They’re saying the car is bringing back real buttons for it.
Term
poppet handles
“Poppet handles” are a door-handle style that moves or pops out when you use it. The speaker is saying the CEO doesn’t like that design and wants to go back to a more normal handle.
The Volkswagen Golf is a common small car that’s built for everyday driving. It’s usually chosen because it’s practical and easy to manage. The podcast mentions it as the next step after learning to drive in a Beetle.
The Volkswagen Beetle is a small car made by Volkswagen. It’s famous for its unique, rounded look. People mention it a lot when talking about their first car or learning to drive.
The Nürburgring is a well-known race track in Germany. “Nürburgring records” means lap-time bragging rights, and the host says these cars aren’t built mainly for that.
The Land Rover Freelander is an SUV made for both normal driving and rougher roads. It’s a mid-size Land Rover, so it’s not as big as the largest models. The podcast mentions it because someone had a bad experience with one.
The Land Rover Discovery Sport is a mid-size SUV. It’s built to be comfortable for everyday driving while still being able to handle more challenging roads. The podcast mentions it in a background/production context.
All-terrain means the vehicle is meant to handle more than just smooth pavement. It’s designed to be comfortable and capable on mixed roads like dirt or gravel too.
iCar is a name being discussed for a car-related brand. The hosts say they can’t use that exact name in the UK because it conflicts with Apple’s branding.
Steering-wheel paddles are buttons or levers on the steering wheel. Here, they’re used to control how the car drives and slows down, especially in an EV setup.
One-pedal driving is an EV feature where you can speed up and slow down using the accelerator pedal. When you lift off, the car slows down and “recharges” the battery a bit using regenerative braking.
The Renault 5 is a small hatchback that’s being brought back in an electric form. The big point here is that it uses “one-pedal driving” and paddle controls on the steering wheel to help you slow down and manage energy while driving.
“Holding its value” means the car doesn’t drop in price as much as you’d expect when you resell it. They’re saying this Fisker is keeping its price better than expected.
If a car company goes out of business, it can be harder to get replacement parts. The hosts point out that for Fisker cars, you may need to rely on specialists or aftermarket sources.
Term
EV club
“EV club” just means a group of people who are into electric cars. In this email, the writer is saying they’ll be joining that group soon.
The Ford Puma is a small crossover SUV from Ford. Here it’s mentioned in the context of an EV lease deal and government incentives that made it cheaper to get into an electric vehicle.
A lease deal is when you pay to drive a car for a few years instead of owning it. The monthly price can be lowered a lot by incentives, which is why the host calls them “incredible lease deals.”
Miles per kilowatt-hour is a way to measure how efficiently an EV uses electricity. If the number is higher, the car can go farther on the same amount of energy.
The Kia EV2 is an electric car that Kia is about to launch. The podcast mentions it because it’s expected to be a similar kind of EV to another Kia model. It’s being discussed as something you might look at soon.
The Kia EV3 is an electric car from Kia. The podcast is highlighting it as an important model in Kia’s electric lineup. It’s being mentioned while talking about Kia EVs and their range.
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 is an electric car in the crossover category. It’s designed for everyday driving with room for passengers and cargo. The podcast mentions it as something you could consider when looking at new Hyundai EVs.
The Renault 4 CV is an older small car from Renault. It’s often mentioned as a reference for simple, compact motoring. The podcast uses it as a comparison point for how a newer car might be priced or sized.
The Skoda Epiq is a Skoda car that’s being talked about as a good option. The podcast groups it with other models people might consider. The snippet suggests it’s worth looking at, especially in the context of what’s new.
The Tesla Model 3 is an electric car (a sedan). It’s popular because it can be one of the more affordable Tesla options, depending on lease deals. The podcast mentions it while talking about pricing.
The Tesla Model Y is an electric SUV. It’s made for normal daily driving and family-style trips. The podcast brings it up while discussing Tesla models and deals.
The Volvo XC70 is a station wagon that’s been made more SUV-like. It sits higher than a normal wagon and is meant for everyday comfort plus tougher roads. The podcast mentions it because someone owned one for many years and miles.
The Volvo XC40 is a compact SUV. It’s a practical size for city and family driving. The podcast mentions it while talking about whether to switch to an electric version.
Charging infrastructure just means how many charging stations there are and how easy they are to use. The hosts are saying that in Europe it’s getting good enough to make long EV trips practical.
The podcast is saying the EX60 is a car you should strongly consider. The snippet doesn’t clearly say which exact model it is, though. If you share the full name, I can explain what it is in plain terms.
The BMW iX3 (G08) is an electric SUV. The podcast mentions it as one of the electric cars that stood out in their discussion. It’s being compared to another EV in the same general category.
Fast charging means the EV can charge quickly at the right charger. That matters on road trips because you can stop for a short time and add enough range to keep going.
The Volvo EX90 is an electric SUV made by Volvo. It’s meant to be a bigger, more premium EV option. The podcast brings it up while talking about Volvo electric cars they like.
The ES90 is a Volvo electric car that the podcast speaker talks about. They say they don’t think the quality is as good as some other Volvo electric models. It’s mentioned as a comparison point within Volvo’s EV lineup.
A twin-motor EV has two electric motors instead of one. That can make the car feel quicker and more forceful, which the host says they don’t like in this particular Volvo.
PCP is a way to finance a car with monthly payments, usually with a bigger payment at the end if you want to keep the car. The hosts are discussing whether it’s a good deal or something to be careful with.
An electric vehicle is a car that runs on electricity stored in a battery. The hosts are talking about how EVs can change in value over time—especially when you buy new versus used.
A balloon payment is a big lump sum you have to pay at the end of the deal. The caller didn’t want to pay that final big amount, so they returned the car.
The Renault Twingo is a small car made for city driving. It’s easier to park and drive in tight spaces because it’s compact. The podcast mentions it as a car someone plans to wait for.
Rear-wheel drive means the power goes to the back wheels. That can change how the car feels and grips compared with versions that drive all four wheels.
EV means electric vehicle—cars that run on electricity from a battery instead of using petrol. The episode is discussing whether someone should buy an EV (or an EV SUV) next.
The BYD Seal is an electric car. The podcast mentions it as something you might look at second-hand because of its price. It’s brought up as an alternative when comparing EV deals.
A “used EV market” just means the market for previously owned electric cars. The idea is whether enough EVs are reaching the used stage that buyers can shop them like normal used cars.
A semi solid state battery is an electric-car battery that uses a thicker, gel-like material inside instead of a fully liquid electrolyte. That can help the battery pack be safer and potentially store more energy without getting as heavy.
They’re saying you usually don’t need the biggest EV battery. Instead of buying for your one “worst case” trip, buy based on what you actually drive most days.
Motor efficiency is how well the electric motor turns battery power into movement. A more efficient motor can help the car go farther on the same charge.
FSD tech means software that tries to do more of the driving for you, like lane keeping and more advanced automation. Even with systems like this, the driver usually still has to stay alert and ready to take over.
“Full self-driving” is Tesla’s software that tries to do more of the driving automatically. Even when it’s running, the driver is still expected to supervise and be ready to take over.
ProPILOT 3 is Nissan’s system that helps the car drive more automatically than basic cruise control. The host is comparing it to other self-driving systems.
These are autonomous buses that can drive themselves, but the trial still uses people onboard for safety and help. The idea is that later they could make it easier for rural communities to get around.
Self-driving cars use cameras and other sensors to “see” what’s around them. The hosts are saying it works better when the scene is clear and well lit, and harder when visibility is poor.
Road markings are the lane lines and other painted guidance on the road. Self-driving systems often depend on them, so if they’re faded or missing—especially in rain—the system has a harder time staying on track.
LiDAR is a sensor that shoots lasers out and measures how far away things are. It helps the car “see” the world around it in 3D, which is useful when visibility is poor.
Here, “AI-based system” means the car uses computer software to understand what it’s seeing from sensors and decide what to do. The point being made is that it may need extra capability for tough situations like rain or night driving.
LIVE
Hello and welcome to the Kilowatt Half Hour, a podcast about the world of EVs brought to
you by the team at electrifying.com.
We are back from China and after recording last week's episode in the state of jet lag
on our very first afternoon there, we thought we'd fill you in on what else we've been
up to and as the rest of the team are either jet lagged or enjoying an extended bank holiday
weekend. I've got Steve Fowler back with me, also known as the EV editor of The Independent
and my former boss. Hello Steve, welcome back.
Hello Ginny. It was so much fun last week. It's great to be back. Thank you very much.
Great podcast. Pleasure to be on it. But China, oh, huge. What did you make of it then?
Well I know you've been out there a few times and it was my first trip and I've spent about
the last three years kind of avoiding going because I don't know why. I think I knew it
was going to be a really long intense trip. They're very organised and structured these
trips. You go out with a Chinese car maker and you inevitably spend a lot of time on
buses and you look at factories and you look at showrooms and I think I just felt with
all the travel I do, I just didn't want to do it and now I was really quite cross with
myself thinking why didn't I do it sooner? Because it's such an eye opener, isn't it?
It's astonishing, the scale of it all. But also what was the big eye opener for me was
how much I liked China itself and the people I met there, I thought it was great.
Yeah. Do you know what? I've come back and this is probably the 10th time or more that
I've been to China and I've come back this time thinking I really want to go on holiday
there because it's just fascinating because it's so many places you go to and we're very
lucky we travel a lot but it's all very samey and China's just completely different and
you're at the scale and I know this isn't the car thing but the thing that always gets
me is how you can be driving on the road or on a train or something and then you see
a load of towel blocks and there are accommodation for people and their 30 store is high and
there are 10 or 20 of them grouped together and then there's another 10 or 20 of them
behind and another 10 and how many people are living in there? The scale of the place
is enormous and the scale of the car industry is incredible.
It's incredible. I think the other thing that really struck me as I said we spent seven
days there, the learning for me was that one day at the Beijing Auto Show is not enough.
I literally don't even think we touched the sides of it and that was you know we didn't
have a choice in that sadly but mainly because as we said it's so big so you want to see
things and you're almost walking half an hour from one end to the other you know it's a
lot to do but the thing that really struck me when we were off on you know driving around
the different cities and we went to Beijing and we went to Hanzhou in eastern China was
that there are very few European cars on the road now. So all of these...
It's changed.
It's changed you know and I know there was a time where we had you know the lights of
VW and BMW who went out and set their factories up there as joint ventures with Chinese companies
and of course now China's taken the learning producing their own cars and it is Chinese
cars on the road.
The thing that I always found interesting years ago when I first started going there
is there was demand for let's talk about an Audi A8 for example you know that back then
that the top spec Audi there was a demand for Audi A8 without Chinese script on the
back now if you had Chinese script on the back that meant it was an Audi A8 that was
built in China. So an Audi A8 without the script on the back was a German built one
and that was seen as being so much more desirable that has completely changed and people are
just sort of moving away from the European brands but also Chinese built cars Chinese
built models are in such demand and I mean you've seen loads of them the Zika's and things
they're really good and they're the ones that are really going to make the premium brands
the BMWs the Mercedes the Audi sit up and think oh no what's coming.
Yeah absolutely Steve I think the whirlwind for me was the show and then once we'd you know we've
got that first day out of the way it was straight on a bullet train for about seven hours to head
to Eastern China to see Zika's operation there and the factory I thought was fascinating and of
course you know this is a car company that launched in 2021 you know they threw up this
massive factory I think it was 1.3 million square meters in a couple of years and you know and it
was seeing how quickly that you know they've established factories and new model builds and
design they've got design centre and engineering centres in Gothenburg this is a brand from start
and I know they've got the might of the Geely you know a massive car and pirate behind them
but it was the speed and it was also just how state-of-the-art the factories were so the factory
that I went to you know robots outnumber people on the production lines 10 to 1 so in the welding
facility it was literally it's robotic it's like this incredible choreographed ballet with like
little robots running around picking up parts that are all neatly stuck to the ceilings in this fast
welding facility and you only actually see the people when you get towards the end of the line
on that final pass where they're all over everything checking the shut lines and the quality of the
paint and do you know do the mirror do the visors you know come down properly and and I thought that
was it's that scale of of how quickly they're able to do something and they're not like a legacy
car maker adapting factories that have been making petrol and diesel for years so it they're coming
at it from a very different angle aren't they yeah and it's the fact you said that 2021 Zika you
know I can remember going pre-covid to China and then post-covid and completely different all these
car companies have popped up and they are really good car companies making really good cars and as
you say they've learned quickly they're doing things differently and isn't the train great wasn't
the train great oh I loved the train it was so exciting I mean you know it was just such a privilege
actually to sort of spend some day on a train crossing China and you do realize like you said
there are you know it's the the tower blocks but also I was surprised at how green it was
and I was talking to somebody local about that and they said yeah they planted I think
they were saying since the 80s or 90s a billion trees yeah doesn't surprise me and it's it's
incredibly leafy and green and the cities are leafy and green and all of that it wasn't it just
wasn't what I expected so no I I loved it and and I've come away thinking I'd do it differently
next time definitely want more time at the show simply to get around and see more stuff
but yeah I can't wait to go back that's that's why I want to go on holiday there it does seem
my favorite train fact is kfc is a huge thing in China apparently it's way better than the kfc
we get here but people on the train will order kfc and have it delivered to the train at the next
station so you know you don't bother with a buffet car you get kfc sort of uber-eated to you on the
train incredible I did see lots of people eating kfc on the train so that that that that will be
kfc is everywhere I can get over it kfc and starbucks which again wasn't expecting
anyway it's a bit sad anyway what so what were you what about you when you were out there what
what were you driving what were you looking at well I was with cherry so cherry of course
make a motor and jacu jacu is or was the best-selling car in the uk in march we're waiting for the
april figures to come out any day now so cherry international so we've already got a motor and
jacu we've got leap pass coming talk about that in a second I've got deli van they're their commercial
vehicle offering but talk about freelance as well that's probably coming to the uk cherry's own cars
iCar as well is coming to the uk so cherry really wants to be the volkswagen group of china I think
you know they've got that lineup and they let me drive one of the one of the new leap pass model
which I'm probably not allowed to say I saw one small leap pass had a secret preview of a small
leap pass it looked sensational it genuinely this is a small car and I can't say too much other than
it looked like a cross between an alfa romeo and anastomartin oh wow it was it was brilliant
and I drove the the leap pass l8 which they put us in a car park with a load of cones and saying
drive faster right it's a big family suv but you know the same with all the other cars the
quality is good the drivetrain is really good plug-in hybrid that probably goes 600 miles or
more with a full tank of fuel and a full charge and people just you know look at the sales numbers
particularly of the jq7 people like these cars they like the style they like the quality and
they like the value yeah it was interesting for me because one of the things I thought when I was
after I've been there for a few days was that a lot of the cars looked the same there are a lot of
large kind of slightly blobby suv's on the roads I thought and I think when you do see these odd
gems that are really beautifully designed and I thought the zika 7 gt which is called the 007
over there which made me laugh obviously Mr Bodden's lawyers haven't allowed that for Europe
um but then they I also saw they've got this sort of quad motor high performance um eb the zika
001 and that they had one of those at the head office that I went to what a great looking car
and and performance on it astonishing so I think there are some really good stuff happening with
design I still did think that a lot of the stuff would look to bit the same and there wasn't that
differentiation there that we see amongst european manufacturers for example yeah the one thing I would
say is that the chinese learn fast and I think we are going to see as I said I mentioned that leap pass
and I also saw the new a motor e5 the sort of the first car they launched the first electric car
they launched here they facelifted it and given it a lot of revisions it does look completely
different looks really nice the motor four as well which I'm told will actually come as an
electric car as well small looks really nice they do start to look different so I think I think
they're learning fast and that will apply to the design as well okay so um I think the big story
for me for what I've been looking at is I'm going to take us away from china now back to one of the
legacy car makers um back to Volkswagen and so I've been out and um spent some time with the new
polo and I think you've seen it as well haven't you steve and for me it was so nice to see that vw
has got his mojo back I thought the polo was adorable I really liked it I loved everything
from those retro touches inside where they've got the the the digital cassette recorder that
reminded me of those days when I used to record the top 40 on the radio on sunday nights onto my
cassette so I didn't have to buy the singles and do you remember you used to when your cassette got
jammed in your in your stereo in the car that always had a flip front that you had to take
off so it didn't get stolen um you'd have to rewind the tape back in with a pencil pencil
exactly it was nostalgic for me in a different way to say the rena fives um but it just does
the right thing and I think andreas mint who's leading vw's design is doing an absolutely
brilliant job I mean let's face it he was literally designed so he was literally born
wasn't he to design the new polo literally he's called mint absolutely what but they are nailing
it and I think it's things like just the subtle door handles that were back um and just it feels
good quality it felt to me like this is vw doing what I grew up loving about vw was that they they
just make great solid cars that have got just enough quirk they're not weird they do what they
need to do really well and I've got to say that video is flying on youtube and has had so many
positive comments about it it is it is vw back the thing I like is um you know i know thomas
schaefer the the ceo there he's is a great he's a great guy I call him an armory brit um and they
got a sense of humor and a sense of honesty which I haven't seen from volkswagen before I know that
we got it wrong you know we got it seriously wrong with our early EVs and things like buttons yay
buttons are back you know buttons on the steering wheel buttons for the heating and ventilation
system away from the uh the touch screen system but the quality of design the quality of materials
sustainable materials little design details which was where little badges on the door it is it feels
like a proper posh small car which is what volkswagen should be isn't it it does absolutely and it was
introduced you mentioned in thomas schaefer so I was having a chat with him when I was out there
and I was celebrating the fact the handles because they're just really nice and he said
he told me he hates poppet handles it's his absolute bugbear and he was like you know when he
sort of came in and you know took on the role he was like I'm getting rid of them and he said
every design now that comes to him with a poppet handle he's like no take it back I don't want
them don't want them it's not us it's not what we do and and it was that was what came across to
me as well steve was that refreshing honesty that we didn't get it right and we're getting it right
this time and obviously there's a bit of a bromance going on I think between thomas schaefer
and andreus mince because he poached him from from bentley and I just feel like that the whole
team just felt proud and happy and they know that they're they're back on form and and I you know
as somebody who grew up loving vw as I learned to drive in a beetle my first car was a golf
you know as um as a family we we owned every vw of every weird shape and size we owned
all vw convertibles we had campers my dad had a vw pickup truck we owned a random thing called
a volkswap and trekker which not many people know what that is do you know what a trekker is
it wasn't it a sort of slight off-roady sort of version of jetter or something like that it was
it was like a little kind of off-roady almost beach buggy thing so but it was definitely the
brown that got me into loving cars vw because it was my dad mum dad loved them and we'd go to vw
shows as a kid and I was really pleased to see yeah they're they're back and to see yeah so
congratulations to them I can't wait to drive them yeah can't wait to drive them yeah exactly I think
I think it's uh there's there's three of them there's the the I call them the axes of evil so
it's thomas at the top there's andy min who still owns his bentley ask him to show you pictures of
bentley you'll be there and there's kai havertz oh kai is great looks horribly young uh he looks
like a matinee idol but he's the head of engineering and his pioneered the the speed of development
that they've learned from china um and the cars you know I've been lucky enough to drive I think
you drove a prototype version of the polo I've driven the prototype version of the id cross
which is the small suv based on polo they drive really nicely as well you know these aren't cars
chasing nürburgring records I can lead that to the r models or the gti's gti's back as well
these are just really focused on what people really want from their cars very clever yeah no I agree
I agree so yeah so that was good to see anyway should we talk should we go and talk about china again
yes let's get back to china um so let's have a look let's look at some should we look at some
new stories because I'm really keen actually for you to talk about um the the freelander because
I had a bit of a nightmare out there so I spent a little bit of time at the show and I said we
didn't have a lot filming with the freelander concept doing a walk around video that we'll never
see the light of day because promptly the day after you saw the actual real freelander so we
can't have wasted some time yeah that's how china works so I know you know we got our itinerary for
tuesday at midnight on uh sort of midnight tuesday morning I guess so why did they have it so they
had the concept freelander at the show and then literally 24 hours later they showed the production
version thanks for that guys that was really helpful for me and malos we were not happy I was fine
with it you know jenny yeah you were well I was looking at it but yeah it's a really interesting
car it's a big car you know it's 5.2 meters long is it as big as the concept uh I think it's uh yeah
I think it's pretty much the same size it's it's a big car really big do you know what they they
took us into a little room took our phones off us um forgot about me metaglasses but I was very
honest and said you need to cover these up as well and showed us a slightly smaller one as well at
4.9 meters so the the freelander 8 will be a 6 probably 7 seater as well so you know there's
there's going to be a range of 6 it's a range of freelanders it's a brand in itself rather than
just the one car and you know it it it looks interesting it does look pretty good it's been
designed by a guy called phil simmons in the freelander design team which is an offshoot I
understand of of jlr I don't think jlr knew exactly what was being said about them at the
at the motor show and at the launch we can talk about that in a bit but you know the car does
look good I think it will come to the UK they've confirmed it will be available in right hand
drives it will be to european specification as well obviously there are other right hand drive
markets but we we just we just want more choice don't we and if it's an affordable suv then you
know I'm all in yeah no absolutely um for for me as well I just think I think it's just interesting
how this fits alongside Land Rover's plans for electrification because like you said it's
it's very arm's length isn't it you know yeah I think there's a reason it's been done because
there's a joint venture in China between jlr and cherry they've got a big factory there
they're not making anything that's selling I mean they used to make jaguar saloons that
make evoke and discovery sport so that factory's been sort of designated the the Freelander factory
and you know kind of makes sense for cherry you know jlr I kind of let in some of the crown jewels
go by doing this but you know I interviewed the chairman of cherry and not his first language
english and he did an incredible job but he literally said to me we want to help make jlr great again
um so um you know they've got big plans big plans for working with jlr what the jlr knows this you
know if if you were just reading the transcript you'd you'd swear that they were about to buy jlr
I don't think that is happening uh let's wait and see but you know the the relationship is
is very very important to it and they were talking about Freelander as being a a British
intelligent all-terrain brand um and uh yeah I'm not quite sure the jlr aware of everything that's
that's been said by cherry but you've got to admire them you know I think the car looks great
dealers I was in a room with don't put journalists in a room with car dealers or retailers but they
were all over it you know they're talking about bringing Freelander to the UK they're talking
about iCar coming to the UK or ICA you are not iCar because they can't put iCar because that's
by apple um but yeah there's a huge amount of excitement around the Freelander brand and
you know um I hope jlr aren't shooting themselves in the foot with this one I know what is one of my
first ever launches in the industry and I think you and I have known each other since the late
90s um I think you've got a couple of years on on me I started in 97 and it was the launch Freelander
so it was literally one of the first things that I that I ever did and it was actually really nice
seeing it back and I was trying to think does it matter now who owns the brand are we bothered by
that I don't know I'd love to know what I'd love to know what you guys think so drop us a comment
you can email us podcast at electrifying.com um does it matter to you if a name like Freelander
is now being built in China and is a joint venture with a company like cherry does
or is it do you just happy to see more choice on the roads and I want to hear from people I want
to know what other dormant British brands cherry should resurrect because like I've said
again another thing that was said to me they want more British brands so what got what brands do you
guys think should be resurrected as a range of cherry new energy vehicles and they you never know
they could be actually be built in the UK. Well do let us know okay I'm going to bring us back to
Europe a bit because I've got a couple of Renault news stories that I just want to quickly mention
um we understand that dealers Renault dealers have been in touch with customers
to let them know that Renault fives are coming with one pedal driving and steering wheel paddles
to control the region. The four drives so much better because of the one pedal driving more
efficient as well. I know I've got a four at the moment and I had a Renault five for a year and
absolutely loved it and that was my only critique was that I really wished it had
you know one pedal driving and it had the paddles so Renault have said oh we can't possibly comment
on that but we have definitely seen emails from dealers. They've said they were good they've said
they were going to do it this year it's great it's great news and unless you've already bought a Renault
five. I know I know I know and of course the micro um which is you know the sort of you know a
rebunked version of the Renault five that what we kind of knew the minute we saw the paddles in
that that okay well that means the fives getting them so we've had that yeah the micro oh don't
talk to Nicola oh you and Nicola will ever worry about that. Nicola's furious about the micro she
she gets really cross about it yeah really oh I shall I shall enjoy winding her up okay well
we'll get you back on a podcast in a few weeks if you'll if you'll join us and we'll let you we'll
set you and Nicola up against each other to discuss but the other Renault story that I really
really like is um the fact that the um the R5 turbo which is of course their 140 000 pound mini
supercar um is actually much more affordable now than you might think Steve you know you can probably
put you might be able to pick one up for like 20 quid. Where's the catch? It's Lego. Right come so as
as a Lego fanatic um so I might have a couple of downstairs that is literally filled with
Lego and every kind of Lego car but all you can imagine um from my son but I've got to say I
am quite partial to playing with Lego myself um this this um UK engineer and massive Lego fan
called Dave Collins he is known as Devon Bricks on Instagram you should go and check him out he's
used around 1200 pieces and he has created his own version of the R5 turbo 3e and there is now
a campaign going to get Renault to get Lego to make this as an official um an official campaign
if you head over to the to the website electrifying.com in news there is a news story about this and
you can actually click on the link and you can and you can add your sort of voice to the vote
if it gets to 100 000 um Lego will can will consider making it and it is an utterly brilliant
model the attention to detail is extraordinary so that I don't think they need to get to 100
they'll just do it anyway won't they? I don't know I think that is that's that's the how it works so
you can you can you can submit things to Lego and if it gets 100 000 votes and they consider
making it as an actual kit so we do want to do that yeah we we they could have a boating
boat face moment here couldn't they we could we could start a campaign a really ugly car that
nobody likes they're going to build it shouldn't we let's that's another that's another one for
your your listeners of your viewers to to come back to us which really ugly car should we make Lego
built I love that let's do that okay Doke um right then what should we do I'm sorry I'm
so a bit jet lagged what what what do I normally do now in the podcast after we've done the news
Steve oh I know we do the Barnards Bargains answer some questions has anybody got questions for you
we've got we've got questions but we've got we've got a little Barnards Bargain and and I actually
thought that this one might be quite interesting for you I like this I like Barnards Bargains
so our Barnards Bargain this week is a proper rarity it is a brave purchase and it does seem to
be holding its value surprisingly well it is a Fisker ocean estate it is in the news listings
on electrifying.com so the Fisker ocean it's 18,990 quid um on finance eight just shy 19,000
pounds I think they're being hopeful personally um 8,750 miles on the clock and obviously Fisker
is is no more so would you buy this car Steve would you buy it I thought they would I thought
they were cheaper than that even I mean yeah Fisker having gone bust it's a bit of a problem
if you if you want any parts but there is apparently a guy somewhere in the south coast
who set themselves up as a Fisker specialist not only selling these cars but also potentially even
updating the software and having some parts availability I mean I quite liked when I drove it
I quite liked the Fisker I did it's got a it's got a taco tray hasn't it yeah remember the taco
tray it was a very wobbly taco tray but um yeah it could be a fish and chip supper on it or something
you know it's it's uh it's quite but it looks great yeah those solar panels in the roof as well
they're going to be a great help in the UK but I know whereas I was in New York loads and they've
obviously offloaded them all to uber and loads of New York cab drivers are driving around in
in electric Fiskers but do you know what you know it's take up take would I take a punt no I wouldn't
no because no I wouldn't I just wouldn't but interesting one Mr Barlow
okay we will move on now to look at some of the comments and the questions that have
landed this week and and don't forget its email is podcast.electrifying.com or drop us a comment
and we will look through them and we're going to start by saying welcome to our electric virgin
of the week who is bluefish2303 who emailed in so who'd left a comment on YouTube to say as of the
30th of April I will be in the EV club with my Ford Puma Jenny Select which has been on factory
order for seven months that's what getting the full government grant of £3,750 will do for you
it helped that car sell out didn't it um he said it was so cheap on lease wasn't it at one point
so cheap said it was one of the last ones to order of those incredible lease deals last September
which came with the Ford power promise which was the free EV charger amongst other benefits that
was a great offer that wasn't it um and he has a nice comment about you great to hear from Steve
you should have more guests on like him so your wish is out of hand bluefish and Steve is back
two three oh three that's that's good way I call you bluefish that's very kind thank you very much
and it's back so right I've got a car buying question for you Steve Andrew who is a British
Canadian emailed in to say hi Ginny I'm going to be moving back to the UK living in the South
Arc area and I am wondering what EV you would recommend for a family car I would prefer a top
of the range trim version not highly expensive someone said the R4 would be good but wondering
what your views are and could you give me a top five in order of choice so we're not done we're
not that organized we can give you five but not necessarily in order of choice um I'm good I am
going to throw in Steve to that one the Renault four because I'm driving one at the moment and as
you said it's got the flappy pedals and the full one pedal driving and I do really like it now
because of that I think it's it drives really well I'm currently getting 4.4 miles per kilowatt
hour which is really strong efficiency I know the weather's been you know pretty decent recently
but I've been impressed with that and it's just got it's kind of grown on me I didn't love it as
much initially that car as I did the Renault five which I just fell in love with instantly
but having spent time in it and just seeing it is more practical I can fit tall teenagers in the
back seats without the moaning at me and you know they're moaning off already don't they so you don't
need that in your life so I would throw that one definitely into the mix as something that you
should be taking a look at have you got anything you want to chuck in yeah I like the Renault four
I'll take you to Kia shall I yes the the Kia EV2 is about to launch which is a similar sort of car
in size to the Renault I think it's a little bit more practical but if you can our friend hasn't
hasn't mentioned his price how much he's going to spend but for me everything has to start
and stop with the Kia EV3 you know Kia's got a great electric car range I think the EV3 is a
EV3 the biggest problem the EV2 has is the EV3 the EV3 is a fantastic family car it's got loads
and loads of space inside drives really really nicely on a horrible road over here super efficient
loads of kit love it absolutely love it it was world carved the year in 2024 and deservedly so
yeah absolutely I would I would take that in I would also and I'm not sure when when you are
coming back and she didn't actually say that so I would chuck in the new forthcoming Hyundai Ioniq
3 as something that you perhaps could look at as well I've been really impressed with that when
I've seen it it just feels like I've really nice package I love the fact that it's not an SUV I love
the fact that it looks like the concept car I think it's going to be pricing isn't confirmed in the
UK yet but it's going to be probably in line with a car like the Renault 4 maybe a little bit less
so that and I would also as a fourth option again if you depending on how quickly you need to make
this decision you've got to be looking at the Polo I think now as a great little family car
that's the weight a little bit for that aren't you yeah yeah Polo or Skoda Epic or the the
the new ID Cross they're great cars the other one I was just going to throw in there because I
mentioned it last week is Tesla Model 3 because it's so cheap on a lease 295 down 295 a month
which may bring that into play and it's a Tesla with the super charging network and everything else
so yeah I think we've done a fair five or more there haven't we I think we've got five there we're
not putting them in order because you know quite frankly everybody likes different things but there's
a good a good starter for five if you've got things that we have missed let us know drop us
a comment with any more suggestions for Andrew who is moving back from from Canada to be living
in Suffolk and is looking for a family car with a good top-range trim and not highly expensive
okay EV3 EV3 Steve what have you got for us have you got any have you got a question
yes I have glasses glasses on so this has come from Mark Peacock high electrifying I hope this
email sees you all well yes I'm well are you well Jenny I'm well thank you yes so thinking
of going electric so Mark has an XC70 diesel had it for 11 years 179,000 miles looking at getting an
EX or XC40 twin motor ultra problem putting off going electric I drive to the Alps in the winter
two week holiday in Spain and so over in the Pyrenees they drove an XC70 down to Spain
do they keep the XC70 for the long journeys or do they go fully electric hoping the infrastructure
is good in Europe Mark says he's not the only person asking this is he so what do you reckon
Jenny if you were going cross Europe in an EV can you go cross Europe in an EV or on what would
your advice be you can the charging infrastructure is great it's very very easy I don't actually
think any members of the electrifying team have personally done that journey but we know loads
of people that have we've also got a really handy guide and an explainer to heading off into Europe
for the first time in an EV that tells you all the stuff you're going to need to know and I think
when you start to look now at some of the cars that are coming through I would I would suggest
the Volvo EX60 would be something that you should absolutely be looking at if you're
503 mile range isn't it and one one version it has along with the BMW
ix3 which was our electrifying car of the year and of course Steve has just been made
welcome the year yeah two good calls I think yeah which are both jurors and and what I love is that
everything that the BMW does the Volvo does slightly better when I when I did the comparison
video they're oh no I so when I did the first little video with the Volvo it was really funny
because literally like the BMW has 500 miles of range the Volvo has 503
one charges from sort of 10 to 80 percent in 20 minutes the other does it in 19 so
they've obviously just been really gunning for each other they've been looking isn't it
so I'm off to drive their Volvo soon so there'll be a first look video coming up on the
web on the website and also here on YouTube about that so I think either of those would be great
and as for those drives to Europe I mean you really don't need to worry about it with cars
like that now which have got stacks of range and also which more importantly will charge quickly
because that's the beauty when you're doing long journeys I don't know about you but I like to stop
you know every couple of hours and just top up you know rather than drain your battery and wait
for ages for it to fill but I think either of those would be a great choice I'd get such a
kick out of fast charging I know it makes me sound a bit weird but I had the ix3 and I didn't need
to stop I just wanted to stop and see it charge it got up to I think 330 kilowatts charging when I'm
kind of looking at this this is incredible literally went into the services had a pee got
some apples came back and it put over a hundred miles of range on the car more than enough to get me
home but the key look the key to European travel as with any travel with an EV just plan it just
think about where you're going to stop look and see where the charging points are and just think
ahead but it's absolutely doable the only thing you did mention is the the xc40 or ex40 it's why
least favorite Volvo you know I love the ex30 I love the ex60 I love the ex90 the es90 but the ex40
I just think the quality isn't good enough for a Volvo I don't I don't love that car as well and I
think I think in the twin motor version I think the performance is just too much in it I don't think
you need those levels of performance in a family car stretch yourself for the ex60 you won't regret
it now will lilburn quick has emailed in I had to say I discovered your podcast a few episodes
about enjoying it very much thank you very much and I'm now going back to your early ones which
is great is I'm looking to buy something two to three years old which were often new at the time
so I was in a medium-sized second-hand dealership looking to buy a used and yet with cash the
salesman was pushing finance options pcp in this case have you done anything explaining the pros
and cons about my gut feeling is to steer away from it because I'm suspicious of credit having
gone my entire life without a credit card cheers will lilburn quick in Shipley Yorkshire I mean
well done for that I wish I'd gone my whole life without a credit card I've done quite in all of
that um don't be frightened don't be frightened of it will that's that's the thing you know as
long as you're in charge I always say as long as you do the maths do your homework no you're getting
into don't just say yes to the first thing that comes your way but do do some research don't be
frightened of it because buying on finance is a great way to do it and very affordable it is but
I think like I look at my dad for example who has never ever bought a car on finance he's always
paid cash for every car I can see I can see that and interestingly at the minute talking about used
so I have a mate of mine who is a um private you know private hire driver uh Jason who has
been five years ago was asking me about you know electric cars and I said give it five years and
the cars will be there that are affordable with enough range that will do what you need it to do
five years almost to the month he is looking now for a second hand one he's got a sort of
budget of sort of mid early to mid 20s and he has settled after lots of chats with me
on a used eniac and he's paying cash for it but because the you know he gets everything he needs
it's got the you know he needs the boot space for great cases and stuff it's a great car so you know
I can completely understand why that a lot of people do want to pay cash and you know where
you are with it but like you said it's not something to be afraid of there's a reason why
an awful lot of cars I know I know it's 80 85 90 percent of cars now
exactly something like that yeah yeah and my rule is if you're buying an electric vehicle
I wouldn't buy a new one cash I would buy it on finance because you know they do depreciate
and you don't know what's happening with the depreciation if you're leasing whether it's on
a pcp or a personal lease I prefer the latter because the deals are really out there and personal
leasing then you're protected you can just hand the car back over after three years and roll into
another deal if you actually spend your own money on a brand new EV then you might suffer
pretty pretty rapid depreciation not necessarily the case if you are buying used because let's be
honest used EVs are sensational value at the moment and they won't depreciate as much as they do new
yeah well I hope that's helpful let us know what you decide and what you go for I'll do another
another quick just a quick one high team electrifying this is from somebody who oh it was an email okay
that's why it's Robert Smith one of the many of us who listens and writes in indeed Robert hello
Robert Smith um Robert says he's a huge one of the not Robert Smith and the cure oh well it might be
it might be let us know if you have gone through life with that sorry sorry Robert they always say
to me oh Fowler like EastEnders yeah you yeah Robbie Fowler yeah cousin Robbie as I've called
anyway sorry sorry Robert sorry anyway um so um he's Robert says I'm a huge fan of the podcast
listen to every episode so I wanted to share that I am officially rejoining the electric family
previously had a Honda EN Y1 it wasn't the most exciting car but it was easy to live with and a
bargain 250 quid down 250 pounds a month Tom actually mentioned my deal on a previous show and I do
remember that deal actually it was like one of those too good to be truths but he didn't want to
swallow the final balloon payment so he handed it back with plans to wait for the twingo in the
interim took ownership of my dad's 2012 diesel Volvo as he was retiring lovely car but running it
has been painful with the current cost of fuel then I spotted a deal on a Tesla Model 3 coming
back to what you were just saying about Tesla Steve it was a Model 3 rear wheel drive 295 deposit
295 pounds a month 8000 miles over 24 months I always said I'd never buy a Tesla because I don't
like Elon but at that price my morals vanished pretty quickly took it for a test drive signed up
there and then I can't wait to be back in an EV this June keep up the amazing work and for the
record I agree that Nicholas Niggles should become a permanent part of the show you might have missed
this one Steve Nicola was on a full-on rant if you ever said to go and uh and there's been a lot
I sat next to her on a plane and had Nicola's niggles for hours if you really want that in your
podcast then go ahead um but Robert oh Robert yeah well done great great cool um can I just make us
make a point you've been Nicola's boss as well have you actually been the boss of everyone that
works I don't it just means I've been around too long I'm too old but you know let's be let's be
honest I was never really the boss you guys were always in charge so you know I just just I just took
the blame that's all okay um right let's put another car buying question in from um Ashworth 8378
Hyal still an EV Virgin very much considering jumping in but not sure whether to buy a second
hand SUV like the Nero or go for a luxury new Chinese SUV I'm not bothered by a brand but I
quite like the idea of top-level luxury for a budget price which new Chinese manufacturers would
you go with or would you take the well trodden route of a second hand Nero Steve what do you
reckon oh you're gonna ask me first I hope you're gonna go first I can go first if you like I can
go first I quite like the new you know the latest Nero um not a fan of the old one that seems to be
doing the rounds on Ubers so the the second generation E Nero um I I quite like uh but again
depends how you you're buying it if you're buying it on finance I know some of these these new Chinese
EVs I was probably slightly uh different to most people I quite like the the the GLE um you know
the the GLE electric is it the EX what is called the EX5 you know I quite like that it's just a
bit different inside and it drives okay no they don't drive it's an okay drive it is no I get that
I did I do get that I kind of wondered I was thinking about that that level top level luxury
for a budget price and it made me think of a second hand BYD seal um because um I know SH
Worth was saying you were looking for perhaps a second hand buy I was looking through our listings
mid 20s will get you a seal um I really like that car to drive a lot I and I think it's not
yeah it's not an SUV though is it that's that's the only problem with that yeah I know I know but
I was just kind of pushing out of an SUV I know I know the the the seal is it the C line five I
mean I get mixed up they all look the same and they watch silly names as well I don't like the
line as much so I know you want an SUV um and this is where I just say oh buy an ENYAC it's not
a Chinese so yeah yeah or EV3 or something I buy used E I just I mean I know we go go back to
no no I'm coming go use Nero I mean that they're super efficient they really are super efficient
and they're a bit dull but um no you've got me I mean have we got used E have we got EV3s coming
onto the used market yeah I'm sure they must they they must be coming through the to the
used market now but you know even uh even the used scenic what about a scenic I do like the scenic
you know that's a decent sized family car not exactly exactly exciting but drives nicely and
built nicely as all randoms are Google tech just another option Steve and I are flagging with our
recommendations so I think this is where our listeners might need to step in and help us so
perhaps you could drop us a comment or send an email in for suggestions that that you um the
Ashworth that sorry SH worth should be considering um what should he go for instead of the Nero which
is as you pointed out a very well trodden road um right got a few comments just to wrap up on
because oh yeah where are we at now I think we've been going for what like oh but look at almost
three quarters of an hour Steve now um because there were some comments on how short our podcast
was last week patty the geek a regular listener this week's kilowatt half hour was only 30 minutes
I feel cheated of 50 minutes my sadness is real in the name though yeah but the the joke is Steve
that we never actually hit half an hour as clearly as as we've never we never want to do it but last
week we did and I'm going to tell you why in a minute um DFID seven tourer bugger me a kilowatt
half hour that is 30 minutes long um rash 19785 corrected me the Beijing auto show is
380 000 square meters which is over 4 000 square feet I was using how many football pitches is that
10 you said it was 10 is more than 10 is more than 10 football pitches anyway yeah anyway but back
to the reason why it was only half an hour so the reason it was half an hour is it's a massive show
and there's nowhere to sit down absolutely nowhere and we had managed to get that little area at the
back of the Zika stand for half an hour and we were already running a little bit over because we
tried to like do our setup stuff and there were literally people there going stop it you've finished
no come away so we were very strict on our half an hour which is why it was a brief podcast and I'm
so glad you weren't carrying all filming when we finished because it was surrounded by this sort of
remember the glass sort of wall around it with a little glass door in it I just went straight over
the top of the thing a couple of comments to wrap up with on the cattle 900 mile battery that we
talked about last week um Paul Meyer has messaged and said the big news for me was that new cattle
semi solid state battery but rather than have a 900 mile range I would rather have 300 miles
and a very much lighter car it would make it possible to build something like the Mazda
mx5 ev which is fun to drive and easy to throw around this is the question I ask every car maker
I talk to every designer I talk to why have we not got really fun two seater ev sports cars
why why why I'll tell you why because nobody buys them we all love them nobody buys them
I asked the question to Nissan when I was out in Japan like where's the electric 350z
where's that and and they didn't say it'll never come is all I'll say on that one but yeah I but
I think there is a serious good point in this that we don't need cars that can do 500 600 700 800
900 mile ranges we really don't we drive an average 20 odd miles some people absolutely need them
but most of us don't and you can actually save yourself quite a decent amount of cash by working
out what you actually need rather than what you think you need which is always the advice I would
give to anyone moving to electric for the first time is don't buy your electric car based on the
one time you go to visit anti-gloria in Glasgow and your face with an eight hour drive don't buy it
for that one time a year um so yeah it's a good point that I think lighter cars smaller batteries
I'm in for that that's what it's interesting to talk about that and efficiency in motors and
stuff something that lucid do very well you know not massive batteries really efficient motors
and you know it's a changing world people will get to know they buy what they need you're absolutely
right Jenny yeah I'm going to end with a couple of comments on the the FSD tech that we were
talking about that's the full self-driving technology and of course you've been for a spin in a Tesla
and I've been in the Nissan which has got that new pro pilot 3 tech storm broke message to say
I took away most self-driving cab in San Francisco I loved it I like to drive but I think you made
a good point in the podcast if you live in a rural location self-driving cars will help keep elderly
people independent for longer so true and I don't know if I mentioned this on the podcast last week
because I was in a bit of a kind of like I felt like I was in a fever dream for most of China and
particularly on that first day but there's been a really fascinating trial running up in Scotland
of driverless buses and they've got a they've got a conductor and they have a safety driver at the
wheel at the moment but the plan is that down the line it could really help with you know connectivity
in local rural communities and I just love that idea I really love the idea of it like picking
people up locally the old people still won't get on before nine o'clock we'll probably be able to
get on the buses before then and then just want to finish on again on the fsd how is fsd at night
on a twisty country road with worn on nonexistent road markings in the pouring rain busy city streets
are areas where self-driving will excel because it's usually well lit and a matter of identifying
a lot more potential hazards than humans due to all the cameras and sensors but what I'm interested
in is the poorly marked roads in poor visibility this was unknown user rbe9pd and that's a good
point isn't it because that have you have you I mean they rely so much don't they on the road
markings and what's happening around them on a twisty country road with nonexistent road markings
in the rain yeah it's a really good point there's a lot of testing going on in the UK and I want
to be part of that testing because I want the country lane scenario not least in that sort of
condition but also when something comes the other way I have been in fsd in the US in the dark
and it still works fine but you know I said to Tesla what what if a camera gets blocked or dirty
as he said you're gonna have to clean it a leaf comes over the camera you're gonna have to move it
this is fsd supervised so you still are in control but yes in the US I've used it in the dark and it
works it's uh it's so so clever yeah it's interesting so I was um I asked the question when I was out
there in um in Tokyo um because they've got a combination of um of cameras and lidar and radar
as well and it's obviously that AI based system and the chief engineer was saying to me that actually
it's still that that that rely it needs more levels they believe it leads it needs a lot more
levels than just the cameras for certain situations like when the weather is bad like when you're
driving at speed like when it's dark um but that's definitely it's it's not you know it's still
that thought I don't think I would like that thought of driving along the country road and
not doing it myself in the dark in the rain I'm not sure I could give that over to a car could you
do you think you could it's the same as doing it first time in the daylight isn't it you know
once you've experienced it and you get the confidence that it can do it you'll be fine and
that's why I said you know I really I know Tesla have done the testing down the country laying
with the tractor coming the other way I want to experience it myself yeah yeah yeah yeah okay well
let us know what you think um we love to hear your thoughts as always let us know about full
self-driving anything else we've talked about in the podcast today podcast at electrifying.com you
can drop as a comment and I think it's time for us to wrap up and you'll be very pleased to say that
we are well over the kilowatt half hour much more like the kilowatt three quarters of an hour aren't
we Steve that's more like it as it should be as it should be Steve thank you so much for joining
us you can check out Steve's writing over at the independent where he is electric vehicles editor
and I'm sure you'll be popping up on the podcast again and also you do write stuff for us to know you
yeah but this occasionally yeah thank you for having me thank you for all your lovely comments
really appreciate it and thanks for listening we'll see you next time bye
you
About this episode
The hosts come back from China impressed by how quickly the market has shifted toward domestic brands, with European cars far less visible and Chinese-built models now in strong demand. They dig into fast-moving EV makers, Volkswagen’s return to physical controls, and Chery’s surprising revival of the Freelander name for a China-built range. The back half turns practical, covering used EV value, long-distance European charging, and where supervised self-driving still struggles most.
Ginny and Steve are back from China with a proper debrief after the Beijing Auto Show – less jet lag, more perspective. They chat about the sheer scale of the show, the standout cars, and what it’s really like on a first visit.
There’s plenty of EV news to get into, including the VW ID. Polo reveal, Renault 5 updates (and even a Lego version), plus a Freelander comeback. Barnard’s Bargain returns, and the team tackles your questions—from the best family EVs to buy, to road-tripping across Europe, financing options, and whether to go used or take a punt on new Chinese brands.
As always, there are your comments, some strong opinions on self-driving tech, and a warm welcome to this week’s “electric virgins” making the switch.
