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Music
You know what that sound is, Tommy?
What you got there?
That's the sound of crashing and burning.
And in this show, we're going to be talking about two different topics that have a common theme.
Yeah, so we're going to talk about some of the cars this year that kind of crashed and burned
as well as some cars that are dying this year and therefore might be a good buy.
Yeah, both of these categories of cars could be something that if you're out there shopping for a new car
you might want to consider because the crash and burns are in selling.
Of course there's a reason for that.
And the cars that are going away are going away so dealers want to get them off the lot
so they can also be gone and be discounted.
So you want to start with crash and burns?
So these are cars that I think were highly anticipated or very controversial
and then when they finally hit the market just kind of landed with a bit of a dud.
And the obvious one which we should start out with.
Hold on, hold on.
Let me thank our Patreons first.
Thank you Patreons for supporting us.
Your support these days is more important than ever.
We really appreciate the fact that you join us for these live shows.
You get extra content.
You help support the channel by donating a small amount each week
and letting me and Tommy sit here and go around the country reviewing new cars.
So thank you very much.
And if you want to be part of the TFL, I'm not going to call it TFL Nation.
Would you call it TFL Nation?
I would just say the community.
If you're a part of the community, if you want to get information, reviews ahead of time,
if you want to be...
Well you get bonus content.
You also get sneak peeks at what's coming up before everybody else does.
I was going to say if you want to be in the know.
Sure, there you go.
Then support us.
Head on over to patreon.com.
Yeah, you got it.
So this podcast would not be possible without our patrons.
We also do bonus episodes of Carish most weeks.
So you can check those out and see what's going on with the Carish crew.
And like you said, get all the stuff early.
Let's start with the crash and burns.
The first one that we have on our list.
You actually went and reviewed.
You went on the program.
So you want to spill the beans on that one?
Well, I think that the Dodge Charger is kind of the big obvious one, right?
So that's the fully electric Dodge Charger Daytona,
which really in volume launched this year
and then immediately kind of started sitting on lots
and had to be discounted in a big way.
But the mistake that Dodge made is of course they launched this car
as the full electric only.
They saw the reaction of the electric car
and then they really pushed hard to get the gasoline model out
as soon as possible.
And that's the car I just went and checked out.
What was it?
Last month, Casey and I went to Detroit for roadkill nights
and got some time in the new gasoline charger
because the electric one just didn't find an audience.
Well, so first of all, let's start with this.
I think it's a very good looking car.
I think Geralt and his team did a great job in styling it.
I love that little wing on the front,
which by the way isn't there if you get the gas version.
If you get the so-called six pack, the six cylinder,
but I think it's just a very, very good car.
I finally got to drive it with my man, Cole,
who's behind the computer there a few,
maybe a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago
at the R-Map annual get-together.
There is me driving it.
And I actually like the car from a design point of view.
It's a handsome car and I think the problem is
with this car as Cole pointed out
because I was looking for a hook, literally.
You'll get that reference in a second for the video.
It's like trying to sell hooks to fish.
They just don't want it.
The audience for this does not want electric cars.
Yeah, right.
I mean, and that was the obvious kind of head scratcher with this.
The crowd for the old Charger and Challenger V8 models, right?
I'm talking RT, SRT, Hellcat, all the old crowd, right?
They, with every bone in their body, hated electric cars, right?
That was the anti-Tesla crowd through and through.
And then Dodge launches their new performance coupe and sedan
as the electric version first, which was a huge mess.
And I understand the performance was actually very good,
especially compared to like zero to 16 in the real world.
This car would kill an old Hellcat, right?
All-wheel drive.
It had a lot of horsepower.
Zero to 16 in about 3.1 seconds.
So I mean, it was a very impressive performer.
But at the end of the day, it was still an electric car.
Trying to sell it to burnout loving V8, loving Americans.
And that just was not going to work.
I think there was an obvious precursor to this,
that if Dodge had been paying attention,
I think they were kind of locked into it.
So I think people, even at the company,
knew that this thing was going to be a rough sell.
But when you think about the crowd that
buys American muscle cars, specifically Dodge cars,
it's the same crowd that buys Harley's, right?
Yeah.
And Harley tried the same thing with the Livewire.
Yeah, that's a good point.
And that didn't end well either.
Yeah.
I mean, it's the sound and the experience
of the internal combustion is such an essential key
ingredients at this pie that it didn't have.
Now, the interesting thing is like,
Dodge had been planning from the get-go
to offer gasoline models alongside the Daytona.
And they basically rushed to get those out.
And it's not official.
No, it's not official.
But we all know that the V8 is going to end up
back in the charger.
Emmy, baby.
Yeah.
So Kase and I went to Michigan to check out
the inline-six version, which comes in two different versions.
There's a low and high output.
I think it's 420 and 550 horsepower.
And that is more on the right track, especially when you look,
when you keep in mind, you know, the performance
of that vehicle, the factory standard I will drive,
I think is a nice improvement over the old one.
The interior quality feels really good
and it'll hold a four-by-eight sheet of plywood.
It's that big.
I think that this is the right car for America.
I just think they should have put the V8 in it
before the hurricane.
But this was under that.
I mean, what we're seeing, dad, is all of the remnants
of the old Stalantis leadership.
So you kind of have three eras, right, in the modern age.
You had the FCA era, which was Marconi and Manley, right?
That was the Hellcat everything era.
Then under Stalantis, we had the new guy, Tavares,
who was kill all the V8s, right?
And you kind of understand, if he's coming
from a European perspective and he was looking
for connections and Euro laws, that made sense, right?
But that never made sense for America.
Even when Café was still a thing, Americans just loved V8s.
So he killed all the V8s.
Those are the cars that we've been seeing.
So that was like RHO Ram.
That was Electric Charger, the electric Wagoneer,
I think to some extent was under him.
And now that we're under a new era of Stalantis leadership,
I think...
Or an old era.
Yeah, really, an old era.
Yeah, we're going to start to see a lot more V8s.
But the product cycles are long enough, right, Dad,
where it's not going to happen overnight.
I mean, this car probably started design process
eight, 10 years ago.
So it's going to take some time for that stuff to come back.
Well, look, I think you made two really good points.
The first point is, if you love American muscle
and you love American sedans, this is a big car.
It's hard to underestimate, especially the four-door,
how big this car is.
This is a true American sedan.
And because it's so long and so big
and actually so heavy with the battery,
it rides really well.
Well, the thing is, you say, especially with the four-door,
they're the same size.
So the two-door and the four-door
have the same profile and roofline.
Thank you for correcting me, but you missed my bigger point,
which is that it rides really well.
Yeah, it does.
It just has a really great ride.
In the same way, a freight train rides really well.
It's got a lot of mass.
Yes, which is fine.
Freight trains are comfortable, I think.
Anyway, the other point here is,
you can get this car at a bargain, not the gas one.
But if you want the electric one,
especially if you get one before the end of the month, right?
September is when all of the credits go away.
And here in Colorado, you now only get the 7,500,
but you also get the $4,000 state credit.
And I've seen these things starting to lease
at like $399, $299 a month.
And that's really cheap, considering
if this is an $80,000 car, if you don't get the base model.
Well, so I was looking at the...
they discontinued the RT.
Yeah.
That one wasn't selling at all.
Yes.
The Daytona.
I'm sure it's still out there.
Yeah, you can still find them out there.
Last time I checked a few weeks ago,
you could pick up an RT if you've traveled to some place
like Wyoming where they really don't want them.
You can roll out before taxes and fees
at like $39,000, $38,000.
And you're still dealing with a car
that's 0 to 16 in five seconds, right?
You still get the big battery.
You still get all-wheel drive.
And I think the RT, too,
you can pay to have upgraded to more power
because it's the same electric motor
from the fast one to the standard one, the Stagg-Skatpack.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a lot of car.
The Stagg-Skatpacks were like,
they were marked down like 12-ish grand,
so they were like 50.
I saw them for more than that, even.
Like 15 I saw.
So the lease deals were good,
but the problem with the lease deals,
like you can lease them for 150 a month, I think.
Yeah.
But it's a tiny, tiny mileage.
It's like 5,000 miles a year.
So the lease deals don't really make sense
if you want to drive a car.
Just enough to take them on a drag strip
and just, you know...
Well, yeah.
I mean, the way to do this,
plus they launched it with that frat sonic sound,
which was a mistake
because people didn't like that.
Yeah, that's the whole other thing.
Now, the other point I was going to make,
and this kind of leads me to the second car, Cole,
and you can look this second car up
in the video I did from Goodwood
because we haven't talked about this one,
so I'm going to surprise you with it
because this one has crashed and not burned yet.
But the second point I want to make is
I fear in the auto industry,
and this is over and over again,
you only have one shot of making a first impression.
And if that first impression is bad,
it's really hard.
And I think this is true for actually this one, too.
Even with the 6-pack out,
I think it's already kind of tainted
with the width of electricity.
But the car I'm talking about
might be the biggest crash and burn
of the British car manufacturing world.
You know what I'm talking about?
No.
It hasn't burned yet.
It has definitely crashed.
The Electra?
No.
Come on.
No.
Starts with the J, ends with an R.
Oh, the Jaguar?
The Jaguar 00 prototype.
That is a car that may be DOA,
dead-on arrival.
I have read and seen and interviewed people
in the UK about this car,
and there is just so much hate,
so much hate already.
And you see it from anywhere from Top Gear
where they just did a story
where they interviewed designers about the car
and professional car designers,
and they said that the thing
is just slabs-sided and not resolved
all the way to the people I interviewed.
And I actually like it.
I think it's actually really cool.
But because it's electric,
and because it is so way out there
in terms of its design language,
in terms of its look,
people just, wow, hate it.
This is probably the most polarizing
vehicle since the Cybertruck.
Yeah, I mean, and then
you've got the baggage that kind of came
with that rebrand that people hated as well.
But to their credit,
if they could produce this car that looks like this,
I do genuinely think it would be
a very interesting design that doesn't exist,
kind of a shooting break,
really long, really wide profile.
I think that there's a lot of potential here.
I've got a really controversial one.
Well, let's talk about this one
before you go to the controversial one.
Okay.
I mean, they haven't built it yet.
The word that I've heard
is a smart marketing on their move
would be to actually make it
the next James Bond car.
What do you think of the prototype 00
as the next James Bond car?
I don't think they can afford James Bond.
I think it's just spend their whole marketing campaign
on getting this car into the next James Bond movie.
It's not a bad idea.
I heard this on Chris Harris's podcast.
I think that there's some loaded politics
with that, though, because we don't know
who the next James Bond is.
And if the next James Bond crashes and burns,
then this car is going to crash and burn
with the next James Bond.
Well, they were saying that the Jaguar should
forget about this and actually come out with like a V8
supercharged or power with a V8 supercharged.
That design with like the twin turbo V8
that JLR has been using from BMW,
that would be pretty cool.
And I actually think that would get some love.
But I'm not sure that as an EV,
it's going to work.
All right, let's keep going.
What's your controversy you'll take?
Well, you had the dead on arrival,
and I kind of like that.
So I want to give you another one.
And people are really going to throw
things at me at this.
OK, I'm ready.
Go ahead.
I think that the slate is dead on arrival.
Yeah, I think that's not that's big of a stretch.
I'll tell you why.
Of course, it's a truck.
So sorry, Andre, we're in truck world.
But that's also an SUV.
Yeah, yeah.
The problem with the slate is it's a two door.
Yes, they never did.
Didn't they do their research?
Like I can't think of one.
We bought the two door Defender for $53,000.
Yeah.
And we traded it.
Traded not sold it six months later for $10,000 less.
Right.
Because nobody wants a two door.
Yeah.
And I mean, you could say that that's
a little land over problem.
But the four door defenders consistently
with the same mileage hold the value pretty well.
And the two doors absolutely tank.
In the Jeep world, in the Wrangler world,
like three out of four Wranglers are the unlimited.
The four doors are maybe more.
Yeah, I think it's even more.
80% now.
Yeah.
Same thing with the Bronco.
So yeah, this two door is just not practical.
Well, this is calling out everybody in the audience.
Everybody who's a car enthusiast claims they want
a two door.
I see it in the comments, right?
Oh, that's not a real Jeep.
It's got four doors, right?
Oh, Bronco's got to have two doors.
But then when you look at the actual hard sales numbers,
people do not buy two doors.
They do not buy it because they're just impractical.
They're hard to live with.
They have spouses and partners.
You had a couple of two doors Wranglers.
How's it getting in their back?
It's pain in the butt.
It is a pain in the butt.
So I mean, I think I love this concept, right?
But there's a reason like all the two door small
trucks are pretty much dead, right?
I don't think you can get a two door Ranger.
You can get a two door Tacoma.
When's the last time you saw one?
I've literally only seen one two door Tacoma.
My friend James has one.
Ever.
Yeah, our friend James.
He had to look high and low and wide and deep to find it.
Because people don't buy them.
Same thing with Colorado.
Same thing with Canyon's, right?
I don't know if you can get a Nissan in a two door,
but if you can't, I've never seen one.
So here's my take on this.
This is interesting, right?
We're talking about bargain.
So how is this a bargain?
Right now, they've just taken basically reservations, $100.
By the way, Andre had, I think two of them and he got so mad
because they didn't invite us to the official launch of it.
Nathan was there?
No, they had a pre-launch where you could shoot it
without all the people around.
He got all grumpy, huh?
He got all grumpy and he basically pulled the plug.
He pulled the plug on his two reservations.
So there you go.
Take that, Bezos.
$200 less for you, Bezos.
That's $200 you don't have now.
We still have a reservation.
We still haven't pulled it, but...
Well, look, I love the concept of a sub-$30,000 new vehicle,
but there's two reasons instead of rival.
Actually three.
Two door only.
Yeah.
B, the tax credits going away.
Yeah, can I talk about that?
No, not yet.
I don't want to talk about that again.
No, no, no, no.
I want to talk about it in terms of the loophole
that there may be a bargain here.
We'll talk about that in a sec.
But the third reason I don't think this is going to work
is it's too basic.
So this is another one where people claim day in and day out
that they want the basic cars.
Every single car dealer I've talked to,
and we have a lot of friends now that run car dealerships,
every single one says they cannot sell base model anything.
So we've got our friend, Steve.
Yeah.
Unless you're a fleet.
In Pennsylvania, he was talking about how he was a hard time
selling the base models, right?
Unless you're a fleet buyer.
Unless you're a fleet, yeah.
Fleets are kind of another thing.
And maybe this would work with fleets.
But people come in and then they want the features.
Ryan Johnson, right?
At Johnson's.
Why don't they have cheap jeeps?
I asked them.
Because no one buys a cheap jeeps.
I had mine that we actually accidentally ordered too.
They had a base model Wrangler.
Nobody bought it for like six months.
Yeah.
I mean, it's interesting how people like to have electric windows.
You would think that this is something for a cheaper car
that they could do without, but no.
In the reality.
People like electric windows.
They like electric windows.
When it comes to actually buying vehicles,
not us fantasizing as car enthusiasts,
but putting the money down, people want a radio
and people want power windows.
Well, how about central door locking,
which yours didn't have either?
That was a pain in the neck.
The fleet might have that.
All right.
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That's why hands down you count on Granger for auto reordering.
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And you can end your day knowing they've got safety
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Granger for the ones who get it done.
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So here's the loophole.
So the IRS has basically said that if you have
a binding contract on an electric vehicle,
you can get the $7,500 tax rebate.
If it's a binding contract, which means
that you've actually put money down
or you have traded a car down something.
So the idea is, let's say that the car you want
isn't at the dealership right now.
And it's an electric vehicle.
But it's coming.
So if you sign a binding contract
or if you trade in your car,
which is also a binding contract,
so money or things of exchange at hands,
then you can get that vehicle
with the $7,500 tax credit,
the new vehicle you're ordering.
And they haven't put a time on it,
so potentially you could get it in October,
November, December, January.
They may close that loophole,
but with this, if Slate decided
to turn that reservation into a binding contract,
you could potentially still get that $7,500.
But I don't think they're going to do that
because they don't even have pricing for it.
No, they're pretty far off.
They do have pricing.
But like pricing that they're going to stick with
because at that point,
it's a price that you're going to pay
when you have a binding contract.
So that is the potential bargain buy here
if that loophole is usable for this vehicle.
I think they're too far out.
Let's keep going.
So last thing I want to say about Slate,
I do want them to work
because I think the design and the concept are awesome.
But what they need to do,
if I would get a professorial here,
not that I know anything,
but if I was Slate,
I would take this design,
give it two more doors,
and then put a Toyota 4-cylinder under the hood.
Something, no seriously,
something small and basic
that's going to run until the end of time
and sell it for $30,000.
I would do what the i3 did at that point.
Just put like a motorcycle engine.
No, it's too confusing.
People don't understand.
Make it a rage extender.
People don't understand that.
Make it a Rex.
Just get rid of the battery thing altogether.
Just a four-cylinder,
two-liter naturally aspirated engine
that'll last till the end of time.
Go find the Toyota 22RE.
They sure they still have the bits still lying around.
Put that under the hood
and this thing would be a massively popular car.
Make it a Rex.
Call it the Slex.
No, horrible.
Moving on to the next one.
All right.
The one that of course is
probably the biggest crash and burn.
I would say at least of the decade
might be a century as a Cybertruck.
Yeah, I mean,
I mean, so in our last car-ish podcast,
like Scott will solve it,
will solve in law,
kind of compared to the Prius,
but the better comparison is the Aztec.
Right?
It's just, it's too polarizing
and now it's too political.
Except the Aztec,
you didn't have the CEO, you know,
picking winners in the presidential race.
Yes, that would have hurt the Aztec
potentially even more.
But I really do think
if the politics thing hadn't happened
and if they just make it look like a normal-ass truck,
it's actually, it's a pretty good product.
Like it does a lot of stuff really, really well.
I'm one of the only people
that actually likes the Cybertruck.
I'm waiting for it.
I would buy it again.
I'm waiting, you know, ours was 100,000.
We sold it in the nick of time
for like 80,000, I think.
It was like 85 or 90.
No, we didn't sell for that much.
We lost like 20K on it.
Oh.
Yeah, I want to say we sold it for 82 before.
In three minutes, we had that thing for like two weeks?
Before, yeah,
luckily because now we'd be selling it for like 42.
So we lost, you know, like 20K on it.
But while we had it,
I really enjoyed it.
I liked all the features.
I thought it actually worked pretty well
as a Cybertruck,
not necessarily as a Cybertruck.
So if you look at,
if you think about it as a car with a giant trunk
that does a lot of things that, you know,
a Cybertruck would do,
I think in that regard,
it would be a much more palatable vehicle
for many people.
Sure.
But yeah, I mean, you know,
you can go down the list of all the issues,
quality, price, weird stainless steel issues.
I mean, I think for most people,
it's just the design.
It's just too weird.
It's too ugly.
Square steering wheel,
looking at the video.
No, I mean,
I think that the engineering is great.
The steer by wires proven it was okay.
Intel, did you see that guy took it on the Rubicon Trail?
Yeah, I saw that.
He snapped like three tie rods
and then had to be rescued.
And that wasn't a great look for the Cybertruck.
No, it's not meant to.
There's a lot of cars you could take on the
on the Rubicon Trail and do the same thing.
Yeah.
It's not just a Cybertruck.
I think even a Rivian,
which is smaller and has a lot more ground clearance,
would have a hard time going on the Rubicon Trail
because that's a very hardcore trail.
Yes, it is.
So I'm, but I just like,
honestly, I think that the power train is really good.
The supercharging is pretty good.
What's interesting is they haven't come down in price.
They've got that basic one now that's like...
Well, used, they have.
Yeah, used.
But new.
But new, they're still like 70K,
even if you want the basic one.
And then there's just a classic Tesla.
Oh, so he was going to start at $39,000.
Yeah, that was also bad.
The basic one starts at 70.
So yeah, I just think it's just too weird,
too polarizing.
It's too politicized now.
And it's, I do think that you're right though,
it would be a great used bargain in like three, four years.
If you could pick one of these up for $15,000, $20,000.
I'd buy a new one for $50,000 right now
if they sold a new one for $50,000.
Now to try, don't get the tri-motor problematic.
You want two real, it's got two rear real lockers,
the dual motor, right?
So mechanical lockers, not these electronic lockers,
which are problematic.
And it's got air suspension so you can lift it.
It's got four-wheel steering.
It's got a steer by wire.
It's got that giant trunk.
I think they also took away the sliding tantal cover
off the basic one, which was great.
Yeah, but the basic one's the only single motor.
Yeah.
It was great because I went to pick up my friend Steve
and he had all his luggage and we threw him in the back
and it started raining and it stayed nice and dry.
I mean, it's a useful vehicle.
It's just not a 70K.
What are you going to do with a single motor
Cybertruck off-road though?
Yeah, it's useless.
Yeah.
So the basic one is kind of an interesting idea,
but it's...
Tesla, when you get the dual motor down to $50,000,
call me.
Yeah, give it three months.
It'll be down to $50,000.
The rumors are that there's like 10,000 of these sitting around.
The last story about it was that the U.S. Air Force
once used it for target practice.
So where are all those 10,000 Cybertrucks
that got made and didn't get sold?
Where are they?
Are they just rusting or not rusting somewhere?
Well, they're stainless steel.
So that does help with the rest prevention.
Corroding?
Corroding.
There you go.
Are they sitting in some giant parking area?
Come on, Tesla.
Just move them.
Speaking of moving, there's another one
that's a little bit older, but it's still crashing burn.
Of course, I'm talking about the Fisker Ocean.
Yep.
That was more like 2024, those crashed.
But the stories behind those are pretty wild where people
were paying $50,000, $60,000 for.
More.
And now you can pick one up for $11,000 or $12,000.
Yeah.
So the unsold inventory was bought by American Leasing.
I think it was the name of the company.
And they bought it, I think, anywhere from like three
to 15K depending on the condition of the vehicle.
And then now they're being, I guess they're running all
over New York.
They're being leased or rented or sold
to Uber drivers who are using a mass taxis in New York.
So this is the new New York taxi now.
Yeah.
I mean, I really do think if they had come out
with a small relatively affordable truck like Rivian did,
they probably would still be around.
But just having another blobby overpriced
and relatively unreliable crossover just wasn't the move.
And they didn't have the dealer network in place.
Yeah.
It was a little bit half done the Fisker Ocean.
To the credit, I mean, I can't believe that they got
those things out the door.
You know, building a car, any car is such a monumental task.
So credit, we're credits to they got that done.
And it did have some cool features like all of the windows
go down, even the little quarter windows.
There's one that runs around Boulder with the quarter
windows down always, which I think is cool.
The California button.
The California button, yeah.
And it didn't have like the screen that did the twisty thing.
So like there were some cool little gimmicks in the car,
but it didn't really move the needle beyond what Tesla
or Hyundai or Ford or Volkswagen are doing.
Now the next two are kind of in the process
of crashing and maybe burning a little bit.
And I'm of course talking about Porsche.
So Porsche has come out with two electric vehicles,
the McCann or do you say McCann?
And of course, the Taycan.
And these are two very good products,
but they're kind of they've got that problem
of like right car, wrong time,
or perhaps right car too expensive.
So let's start with the McCann McCann.
They were going to, of course, this is one of
their most popular models, right?
So they were going to electrify it
because of what's happening in Europe.
So in Europe, we're off with the Trump administration.
We are, of course, off the everything's going electric timeline.
But in Europe, they still have to basically,
especially like in places like the EU,
everything has to be electric by 2035.
And so this is why Porsche is rushing ahead
with electric vehicles because the governments
are saying that you won't be able to sell
in truck combustion engines.
But the problem with this car, and I like it.
I like the design of it.
I think it's, I'm never driven.
I'm actually going to go drive it in two weeks
up in Aspen.
Okay.
I think it's a very handsome car.
I think it's got a lot of upside.
You know, the cool thing about these
is Porsche always under promises
and overperforms exactly the opposite
of what Tesla did with the Cybertruck.
So I'm expecting the range to be much higher.
Tom over at, what's Tom's channel?
And Kyle both did arrange this on the Taycan.
Okay.
And it feels to be like 300
and they both got like 360 miles of range.
I'm expecting the same thing with this,
but they're just too expensive.
You know, I don't know if this is a car
that's like $80,000.
Yeah.
Or 90, depending on, of course,
if you get the Turbo or the 4S.
But that's a lot of money for a car.
Well, it's a pretty small.
For a mid-sized crossover.
Yeah.
That's a lot.
Compact, more like it.
Yeah.
That's a pretty small crossover.
So I'm just worried that it's not going to sell
because right now we're not in a moment of time
where electric cars are popular.
Well, the bigger concern,
the bigger concern for Porsche
is they also now have a electric Cayenne,
which is just around the corner.
The 70, we'll talk about that in a second.
Not Cayman, Cayenne SUV.
Yeah.
Right.
That he's at a good one as well.
Yeah.
So I mean, I just think that it's in the U.S.
specifically, maybe it's different.
I don't know how it's doing in Europe.
It's just selling any EV right now
is a uphill battle.
But the plus side, like you're talking about
Ticons too, struggling a little.
Used Ticons are pretty good values.
Although I heard they're bouncing up a little bit again.
They kind of tanked and then they're coming up a little.
Yeah.
They kind of, I mean, you could get them
as cheap as $50,000 if you got,
not the turbo, but if you got the base.
Oh, potentially maybe even less than that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you get a base Ticon.
Well, it's the newest, same problem.
The newest Ticons are like $180,000 to $200,000.
And if they have the same depreciation curve
as the previous generation,
why would you buy a new one?
Why wouldn't you just wait for somebody else to take the
depreciating hit?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And when I say that,
I mean, you don't have to wait a long time.
They've been out a while now.
So you can wait six months to a year
and you can pick yourself up a Ticon probably
for 20, 30, 40% less.
I remember Lucid grand touring.
I saw one that had 4,000 miles on it
with six months old, 135 new.
They're selling it for 65.
50% discount in six months with 4,000 miles on it.
The best deal out there though is the Mercedes EQS.
The big eggy sedan thing.
It's not much of a looker,
but that was like 120, 130 new when I drove it.
And you can pick up an EQS used.
There it is, little nerdy Tommy.
You can pick up that car now for like $29,000 or $30,000.
Yeah, and you know.
And not so the design is horrible,
but the way that car drives is phenomenal
and the interior is beautiful
and there's a lot to really like about that car.
Except for the hyper.
No, the hyper screen is bad.
So they had to avoid the hyper screen.
The 4, 15, the 580.
This one I think is a 580.
It doesn't have the hyper screen,
but if you get the 480,
you just get a normal size screen
and that's the one you want.
So we know that all the EQS have crashed and burned
because Mercedes has announced
that they're not building any more EQS for America.
They're still,
ironically, they're actually built here.
So we're exporting EQS now.
We're exporting EQS to the rest of the world,
but the biggest one that kind of crashed and burned
and can be a budget buy is what, Tommy?
Which one?
Which Mercedes EQ?
The G-Wagon.
Yeah, but they're still pretty expensive.
I know, but that's another one.
They're not that cheap.
That's another one that is not selling.
Mercedes has,
somebody, one of the executives
in a recent news report actually said
that it's not selling.
And so that's one that if you want a G-Wagon,
maybe the one you get is the electric one.
The one I really like, which is very underrated,
is the EQB.
That's the little bread van one.
That's going away.
That's on our list of ones that are going away.
Yeah, I really like that EQB.
It actually holds a lot of stuff.
And like I said, you can pick them up for like $35,000.
People hate those cars.
I don't know why though, because they're very good.
They're really comfortable.
They have pretty good range.
They're really fast.
200 miles of range.
Yeah, but I think you could do better in the real world.
Look, the problem, I believe,
with any electric car right now
is that they're all too expensive.
The reason that the Chinese are doing so well with the BYD Dolphin
and the Seagull and the Walrus,
whatever the hell else they have that's equitically themed
or avian themed is because they're affordable.
I think the latest Dolphin is now down to like $12,500.
And at $12,500, Tommy,
if you could build a car, not like a Slate,
but actually a real sedan, because I've seen,
I was in Japan, I saw the Dolphin up close.
If you could sell a car for $12,500 to $15,000,
they would fly off the shelf.
All those people were like,
I'll never get an EV would immediately be buying Dolphins.
I personally believe that's my hot take.
I'm not sure.
For $12,500?
If it only went 80 miles?
No, no, no, they don't go.
They go like $150.
I'm not sure that's enough.
Cole, would you buy an electric car for $150 for $12,000?
If you had a garage, you said.
Yeah.
So the other car, I think that it's also been
a little bit of a dud, actually.
And this is not an EV, it's a gas car.
Is the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer?
Yeah.
I'm not sure that those have worked as well
as you was hoping.
They tried to kind of target that really
upper end luxury segment with those products.
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I mean, there's a theme here.
There's two themes, electrification and price.
Yeah, I think it's too expensive.
Yeah, I remember the last Grand Wagoneer
that I tested was $130,000.
Yeah, which is nuts for a Jeep.
Yeah, look, if you're going to take on
the Suburban and if you're going to take
on the Escalade, you got to bring
more than just a big, you know,
six cylinder turbo,
straight six turbo in the hurricane.
You got to bring it, dude.
You got to bring it because people
love their Slades.
They love their Suburbans.
Slades, not Slades.
Slades.
Yeah, with a D.
Yeah, Slades.
No one has a Slate yet.
Yeah, they love their Slades.
Okay, I'm trying to be cool.
They love their Escalades.
And so if you're going to take on that,
because that has such a connotation
and such a reputation, be it good or bad,
it says something about you.
It's got to be more than, like I say,
$130,000 straight six turbo.
That car was actually, would you go on that launch
with me, Cole, the Escalade IQ in San Francisco?
I think that was you.
That thing's actually pretty cool.
That's what I'm saying.
It's got that coolness about it.
Yeah, I also think that the Wagoneer's
just in this weird spot where it's not
really off-roading, but it also doesn't seem
ultra-luxury, and it's definitely not
that you kind of end up in this weird middle ground
where it doesn't really do anything all
that well, especially for the price.
Well, how about the Wagoneer S, the electric one?
No, that's a kind of a mess.
Yeah, the car is actually,
that's one of the quickest cars I've driven all year.
Really?
The way that, we didn't even,
we had the 500 horsepower version, not the 600.
The way that thing out accelerates
everything on the road is unbelievable,
but there's just no compelling reason to buy one.
You know what I'm being, surprises me.
I get that like us, when I say us,
I mean us car enthusiasts love speed,
but I'm shocked at just how many people now
who have never considered themselves car enthusiasts
like your mom, like some other people I know,
I don't want to name names, that might get me in trouble.
How much they love how quick electric cars are.
I've heard it over and over again
when people get in an electric car,
the first thing that they love is just how fast it is.
Sure.
I should say quick if I'm being more precise
with my language.
So should we move on to the cars that have.
Yeah, let's go.
So car driver wrote up this list
and these are cars that have died,
but you wanted to restructure this.
Yeah, I want to talk about cars that are dying,
but that might be a potential bargain
because the dealers are, you know,
making way now for the 2026s.
There are already some already in the lot.
I was just talking to my man Ryan over at Johnson
and they've already got a lot of 2026 trucks
on the lot.
And so let's get these 2025s out the door
and let's move them.
And the first one on that list
is the last Acura sedan.
Remember this Acura has had sedan
since its beginning, right?
The legend, if you remember back in the day.
Is it Vigor or Vigor was one of them?
Vigor.
Vigor and now it's the TLX that's going away
and it's actually a really good car.
Yeah, especially that Type S.
Yeah, with super handling all-wheel drive.
Kind of like a budget M3.
And it's got.
The damn super handling all-wheel drive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was all-wheel drive, yeah.
That car with those looks
phenomenal.
Even a standard TLX.
I don't think they're killing all the Acura sedans.
Yeah, yeah, that's the last one.
What about the Integra?
Oh, yeah, that's right.
The Integra is the last.
Maybe that's more of a hatchback.
That's more of a hatch, but true sedans.
That's it.
By the way, this list has two things in common.
Sedans on electric.
Both the TLX and the Integra
are extremely good.
I like both of those a lot.
So the TLX and even case
who doesn't like new cars very much
said he loved the TLX.
The Type S with that twin-turbo V6.
The all-wheel drive system.
It's got a really, really nice interior.
The best steering wheel in the business.
It's fun to drive.
It's well made.
It's going to be pretty reliable.
That is a big loss.
I don't know why that.
So when that car launched,
it was very, very, very popular.
It had a ton of interest around it.
And then that kind of just dried up overnight.
It might be a future collectible.
Yeah, I would bet so.
The infotainment's kind of janky.
Yeah, infotainment's terrible.
Yeah, okay.
Terrible.
It's really bad.
It's not kind of janky.
The touchpad thing is what?
But the car drives great.
It's not as sharp as an M3,
but it's also way more comfortable.
It's going to be way better for a daily driver.
I think it's probably going to be more reliable
in the long run.
Very iterated.
That's a big loss.
Yeah, so that would be one that I would certainly go check out
at the Accra dealership if they have one.
And you know, wheel and deal a little bit saying,
hey, it's going away.
Let me get the side of your hair
and you can move on to the...
Actually, Accra is having a really hard time
selling cars right now.
They're struggling.
They're going to roll, bring it on down.
Audi A4.
Now this isn't really going away.
It's being rebadged as A5.
Which is such a dumb rebrand.
Why are they doing that?
So I drove the A5.
It's a really good car.
Yeah, but why not just call it the new A4?
Dude, why do they do this thing where like
the odd ones were electric and the even ones were...
Remember?
No, but I literally do this for a living
and I have a hard time keeping track of Audi.
Audi and Infiniti have so confused
at the marketplace with their branding
that people today don't know what the...
And Cadillac.
And Cadillac.
And Mercedes.
And BMW.
Especially Audi and especially Infiniti.
Went from M to Q and now the A4 is becoming the A5.
It's just a good car.
I drove it.
I drove the S5.
I really liked it.
So Audi used to have terrible naming.
They had the 100 and the 2000 and the 5000
and no one understood it.
Then they went with A1 through A8
and it made a lot of sense.
That was a guy who then went to Cadillac.
Yeah, they talked about that on Doug's podcast.
But what was great about it is for a while there
you knew an A4 was the four door.
The A5 was the coupe.
The A6 was the four door.
The A7 was the coupe-ish.
Not anymore.
And then the A8 was the four door.
So the odd coops and the evens were sedans.
But now it's just a mess.
And then it started to be a mess
when they had those weird four door versions of the two door.
Like the S5 with the four doors.
That was a mess.
I would buy the S5.
You like that car that much.
Is that good?
I would buy it if it wasn't for the S3.
Okay.
So if you're going to get a sporty sedan
you might as well go for the smaller more lively one
which is the S3.
But the S5 is one hell of a car.
And the regular A5 is also one hell of a car.
It's stylish.
It's got all of those Audi qualities
that made the brand kind of the it brand for a while
until Tesla took over that crown.
But they're starting to get some of their mojo back.
I don't know why they're rebranding it.
I like the A4.
I mean your mom had one.
It's been kind of a brand that has cachet.
A good looking car too.
The current one.
It's just a solid little performer.
It's really, really good.
So that's one actually I think is going to be missed.
So Cole, let's keep going.
But A4, that's a big nameplate that's dying.
Q8 e-tron.
This is another car.
No one understood it.
Because it launched as the e-tron.
Right?
This was a bunch of years ago.
I remember you drove it like, God, that was a couple years ago.
It was Audi's first electric car.
Six years ago.
It was very good.
Very over-engineered.
It was very heavy.
It was very expensive.
Very heavy and very expensive.
Then they facelifted it recently and put the Q8 badging on it for some reason.
And then they have a coupe version of that as well.
But the bargain one to get is the old e-tron.
Those are electric car bargains.
Yeah.
Those are really good cars.
Yeah.
They're very well made.
If you want an SUV that gets close to like 280 miles of range, that's a problem.
They were like 204.
The early ones were.
Yeah.
The early ones didn't have enough.
But toward the end there, the e-tron's got like 250.
If you want one for like $25,000, $30,000, that is a car I would definitely look at.
Yeah.
Great cars.
Even less than that, I think.
Maybe less than that.
Yeah.
For the early ones.
So standard e-tron's really good.
Q8, I'm not sure it's going to be too missed.
You know the rarest one of this.
People don't know this car existed.
But they did an SQ8 e-tron.
I think they probably sold three of them.
But they have a tri-motor setup.
Did you know that?
One motor in the front, two in the back.
Nobody knows it, but SQ8 e-tron.
Future collectible.
You're not afraid of batteries.
Future collectible, yeah.
All right.
Scroll down, Cole.
Let's see what's next.
X4.
So this was the Coupe version of the X3 that started 10 years ago.
I don't like Coupe versions of SUVs.
Yeah.
I think these companies are realizing that they went a little too Coupe SUV heavy.
They went to Coupe.
Yeah.
And I don't think that the market really is there, especially for like the lower
end.
The X6, you know, maybe that starts to make sense when you're looking at that
ultra premium segment.
But for the X4, who really wanted a less practical version of the X3?
It's supposed to be for me.
So the idea is like if you're a young man or a woman and you've got a family
and you've got some money, you get the X3 because it's got the regular, you
know, fully realized hatch where you can get all your stuff in there.
And then if you're like me and you're an empty nester.
Thank you for leaving the nest, by the way.
Then you don't need all that room and so you want the sporty crossover
thing.
I always want the room.
Why wouldn't I want the room?
Yeah, especially in an SUV.
Yeah.
Same thing with the X2.
Never liked it.
All right.
Next.
Let's see.
XT4.
OK, this is an interesting one.
So this is the small Cadillac crossover.
Yeah.
So here this is really interesting because really this is going to
morph into the OPTIQ.
Mm hmm.
Right.
And then the X6, which is also XT6, is also going away.
That's going to become the Vistik.
Yeah.
Sort of kind of.
So Cadillac has kind of gone in on electric and they're getting
rid of the, so I went on the launch of this a few years ago in
Seattle.
Seven.
Seven years ago was how long it was.
And the problem with this vehicle, nothing wrong with it,
but it was just kind of forgettable.
It was just another sort of unremarkable crossover.
Fine.
I mean it had all the Cadillac goodies, but there was
nothing about it that would like that would want to make me
get all fizzy in it.
No.
I mean, I think that my thing with Cadillac and I like a
great realtor car for Tucson.
I felt this with Cadillac for a bunch of years now like their
standard high volume cars.
You kind of just get the chevier, get the Buick version, but
they're kind of the unique expensive versions like the
Escalade.
The Cadillacs are really good.
So I've always liked the big Cadillacs.
I've struggled with the small Cadillacs, except the
new OPTIQ.
I really like that new OPTIQ.
It's based on the Equinox EV.
And it's a lot of car for the money.
It's a really good car.
So I would say if you like traditional Cadillacs and
your realtor in Tucson, go get yourself the next one.
Why don't you go down one more because you're going
to want a little bit more room when you're driving
around your potential clients.
So you're going to call.
Go down one more.
Would you?
Next one.
Go get yourself this one.
XT6.
Yeah.
So that way you've got more room for the families
when you're driving around showing them houses.
But the same, same basic problem.
This was like a, this was like if you, the problem
with the XT6 is it kind of looked and screamed.
I can't quite afford an Escalade.
So.
And actually I just drove the Vistik.
Yeah.
Vistik.
Yeah.
It's actually good.
Vistik V, I should say.
The Vistik V.
The Vistik V.
Yeah.
Better than the Vistik V or the R.
This was a very, I drove this car.
This was Alex Leitman's very first press launch.
We drove the same in DC.
Yeah.
I did the 4e to the 6.
It's pretty dull.
Yeah.
That's the problem with them.
It's pretty dull.
XT6's big party trick.
It's had a pretty usable third row.
You know what it's like?
It's kind of like we just saw this car coming in back to the
office today.
It's kind of like the Lexus TX.
Yes.
It was like the TX.
The same world.
The TX is better though.
That's going to be a better third row.
Yeah.
Where it's luxurious.
Well these are basically, these are basically luxury minivans.
Yeah.
You want to.
Not the door.
Your kids go to a private school and you want to show up
with something that's better than a Grand Highlander.
Then you go for the TX or in this case the XT6.
But apparently.
Or.
The XT6.
The XT6.
The XT6.
The XT6.
The XT5.
Get next T5 because that's always been a big seller to you.
Yep.
All right, Cole next Chevy Malibu.
What the hell?
They still build the Malibu.
I have no idea.
They still build the Malibu.
If, if, look, the great thing about the Malibu is you
can go rent it anywhere.
You don't even have to go to the dealer.
You just go rent it and live with it for a few days.
Scroll down a little, Cole.
What if there was a thing, it should do like 25 years
ago.
I would have launched this car.
I thought that thing was, that must have been a
fleet-only sale for all.
the last of the Chevy sedans, except for the Corvette.
Well, that's not a sedan sports car.
But you see what I'm saying?
They're done Chevy like Ford now is done with sedan.
So you could probably get yourself
one of these at a highly discounted rate
if you really want something that is cheap transportation
that's been around.
So it's pre-sorted.
You're going to be completely invisible
because people are going to think you just
came from a rental car agency.
So started production in 2015.
Yeah, went on the launch of that.
It was a great name.
Yeah, I mean, it's a better name than car.
Malibu was a good people mover.
Like it held quite a lot of stuff and it got people around.
Next car, Cole.
QX 50.
Oh, God.
So Infiniti's also.
Infiniti and Acura are both in trouble.
You're going to have to snip.
No, you don't have to snip that, Cole.
The QX 50 is a car.
It's a car.
Didn't this have that turbo compression?
Yes.
I think it had the variable compression turbo.
Which got a big lawsuit because people
said that it didn't get the fuel economy that it was supposed
to get.
I think the QX 50, if I remember right, that's.
Or am I wrong about that?
I could be wrong.
Don't sue Infiniti.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it was the issues with it where they could.
It was it's there's a lawsuit around that engine.
Let's leave it at that.
The QX 50, I think, is the luxury rogue.
OK.
That's that's all I have to say about that.
One more coming up.
Keep going.
Keep going.
The QX 55.
Yeah.
What do you have to say about that?
This is a luxury rogue with less headroom.
That's all I have to say about that.
It's a coupe version of the QX 50, right?
I'm not even sure if that's true.
I'm pretty.
I think QX 60 is a luxury pathfinder.
So if you want a luxurious rogue,
you get a QX 50 with if you want an interesting.
The one thing that is interesting about the car
is it has one of the weirdest dances
between turbo power and CVT wine.
You've got like two dueling powertrains
because like it takes some time for the CVT to spool up
and then it's fighting with the turbo
and you get this kind of weird push-pull sensation.
So if you want a weird push-pull sensation
and a luxury rogue, you can get a QX 50.
I think both infinity and Acura
are really struggling to sell cars right now.
So if you want.
They just don't have a lot of brand I don't think.
Well, hold on.
If you want a reliable sort of good car
sort of go to Acura or go to infinity
because those dealers are probably
very bereth of customers right now
and they'd love to have you come in
and buy some of these cars.
I actually think Acura has some cool stuff right now.
They do.
MDX is really good.
MDX, RDX, of course, that's it to biggest sellers
but they're still struggling with a lot of their.
I'm not sure infinity has a lot of great cars
but they do have cars.
Remember when infinity had like the really cool sedans?
Well, they had like G35, G37 for like the IPLs.
Remember the FX with the Lashark teeth?
That was awesome.
Yeah, that was something.
No, that was something.
But you could have a turbo rogue.
A luxury rogue.
You can't actually get a turbo rogue now
so I'm not sure why you'd buy this
but if you want a bigger turbo in your rogue
you get the Q-finity.
All right, Cole, what's next?
Lexus RC.
Oh, this is just long in the tooth.
Now, the RC is a very good car.
Once again, we have a sedan
but it's been around for at least 10 years
if I remember right.
I went on the racetrack in this car
because it had that kind of the RCF.
It had that kind of active rear suspension.
So I mean, the issue with the RC
was Lexus has always had a hard time selling sports cars
except for the L,
even if they had a hard time selling the LFA, I guess,
they didn't sell.
But Lexus has inevitably struggled selling sports cars.
They've done really well.
Most popular car, of course, is the RX.
Now the GX is a smash hit.
Even the LX does well.
All of their big crossovers slash SUVs,
they do really well,
they really have a hard time with sedans.
Even James's car, right?
The coupe.
Yeah, it's beautiful car.
Maybe one of the most beautiful cars you could buy
and they can sell them.
For some reason, they just don't do well with sedans.
This isn't a sedan again.
This is a coupe.
A coupe, sorry.
But you know what I'm saying.
The RCF, I actually like the standard RC
I think if you just want,
that's kind of a,
the standard RC is like a 1970s or 80s experience.
And that is like the last of the personal luxury coupes.
It's a beautiful sleek design
that's not really built to go fast.
It's very comfortable.
The RCF is kind of a mess.
I've never liked the RCF.
It's this weird combination of-
The four liter V8, right?
It does have a V8.
It's a five liter, I think.
I would get that wrong.
It's a five liter V8.
It's this terrible combination
of being incredibly stiff.
Wait, wait, so what does James's car have?
Also the five liter V8.
Why do I keep thinking it's a four liter V8?
I don't know.
So it's the same as the Coyote.
Well, it's a let, no.
No, it's the same as the Coyote.
Same displacement as the Coyote.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I always thought they were,
are you sure it's a five liter?
Yeah.
Am I that wrong?
Okay.
I'm getting old.
Sorry guys.
Yeah, RCF-
You're doing it too long.
It has this weird ability to be incredibly harsh.
Like driving a wheelbarrow
and yet also incredibly numb.
I thought it was actually very engaging
and fun on the racetrack.
I just don't like them.
I thought-
472 horsepower five liter V8.
I thought it had the Lexus reputation for quality.
Yeah, I mean, it's a well made car.
I think they look pretty good,
but they're just not very good.
I just, I think that it was too heavy.
It wasn't fast enough for the price.
It was too firm and yet also incredibly numb.
I think the problem that Lexus has with their coupes
and all their sports cars is
it's the exact opposite that Alfa Romeo has, right?
So Alfa Romeo builds these incredibly passionate coupes
and sedans that just, you know, break down
when the wind blows too hard.
And so people get really engaged with them
because they've got this,
what's that Italian word for love of life?
I have no idea.
Dolce vita, right?
They're infused with this just, you know, life.
But when the quality comes along, it's not there.
And the two are kind of opposite ends of spectrum.
So if you take a sports car and you make it perfect,
it just becomes boring.
Well, people are in love with the LFA.
That's the car that everyone's in love with right now.
Yeah, because that's got that formula.
They didn't build enough of them.
And, you know, everybody wants something that,
everybody wants the one of one.
And that's about as close in the Japanese world
as you're gonna get to one of one.
Because the Japanese don't do like Ferrari limited
production cars.
And that was the only one that they did.
So I would say get a standard RC.
Don't get the F.
God, don't get the Laguna Sega F.
Remember that thing with the horrible wing.
So I think the LC fills that gap
of a beautiful, way more beautiful than this.
And it's better to drive.
And it's got a better exhaust note.
Look, you walk into a Lexus dealership
and you ask for this car,
the salesman's gonna fall off his chair
because he's gonna wanna direct you to the RX.
And you're gonna be asking about the RC
and he'll be like, oh, we got like four of them in the back.
How much off do you want?
Yeah, they sold less than 2,000 of those in 2020.
Exactly.
All right, Cole, what's next?
Polestar 2.
No, I got a story about that.
Remember I got in trouble?
What did you do in the Polestar 2?
Well, they didn't invite us on the launch
and they had this program where in Denver,
you could as a buyer or a potential buyer,
you could call them up
and they would bring the car to your office
and then you could drive it for half a day
and then you return it.
So I did that and then I wasn't a potential buyer.
I was a reviewer and apparently they got
or somebody got in trouble because I reviewed a car
that wasn't meant to be reviewed,
that was meant for consumer, let's say, the marketing.
So you signed up, they gave you the car.
I mean, you told them what you were gonna do with it.
They were cool with it at the time.
Anybody could have done that, right?
It wasn't just me, we were YouTubers.
So anybody with a YouTube channel or a one of YouTuber
could have gotten the car and filmed themselves
driving it for the morning and put it up on YouTube.
And that's exactly what I did
and I don't think I broke any rules
but apparently the guy who lent it to me
got in a lot of trouble and then I got pissed off
because he chewed me out
so I got him in a lot of trouble.
It was a mess.
I apologize for the whole thing
but the car is a good car.
You can get them used now for almost nothing.
Very well made, very nice interiors.
They're very Scandinavian
and kind of there's a lot of craftsmanship in that car.
Interior is a little too small.
Like it's a little tough to get comfy for me
as a kind of a taller person than a Polestar
but I think that they're incredible.
If you just want like a good affordable EV
that feels like a $60,000 experience,
you can still do that in a Polestar too.
They're really, really good.
I think they're made in China though.
I think they're subject to like,
or they would be subject to 100% tariff so.
Yeah, well that will kill a car real quick.
That'll kill a car, yeah.
But I really like Polestar too.
They're kind of, they were kind of confused
because Volvo kept trying to brand them a little bit
like an SUV and they were very clearly a sedan
with the lift, they were a lift back really
is what they were.
Well the problem is Volvo is already kind of near luxury
and now they've created what they think is a luxury brand.
Well, but.
And it's like, it's like, I'm not sure it's a luxury.
I'm not sure, so Polestar means North Star
in Swedish and it was supposed to be like the brand
that lives above Volvo, but Volvo was always trying
to become like a near like, like kind of like Mazda
was always trying to kind of crawl up the ranks to luxury.
And I'm not sure that Polestar in America at least
has been defined as a luxury brand.
I think people just look at it as weird,
quirky Scandinavian electric car.
But very good car if you want to use one, yeah.
Yeah, the used ones didn't have a lot of range.
They're older ones.
And they're fine.
I think 250 miles was a lot like that, yeah.
All right, what's next, Cole?
Porsche 718.
Boo, yeah, it's supposed to be a.
Came in a Boxster.
That's another car.
So that's a car that's really loved by enthusiasts
because it's kind of, you know,
the possible small Porsche sports car.
And I think they're awesome.
My only issue with them is that they're still
a lot of money, like they can be well over $100,000.
Well over $100,000.
And the interior feels like it's 10 years old.
So what hurt, Tommy, if you're a Porsche guy
or gal, you know this.
What hurt the Boxster and the Cayman
was the four cylinder turbo.
718, yeah.
That's what hurt them.
And so I think, you know, people want that six cylinder,
the S, they want the goodness of the.
4.0, like a 4.0 GTS.
Yeah, exactly.
But the second they put the turbo
and they did the four cylinder, it just kind of became,
it wasn't a good powertrain.
It was 300 horsepower.
Yeah, but then they did the GT4,
which was hugely popular.
But also.
Then they did the.
Yeah, the different engine.
Cayman RS, which is very popular.
So if you're gonna get one, go for the four liter.
Sure.
My dream car, if I had my dithers,
but I can't afford it nor do,
I think anybody would watch the video.
So we're not buying it,
but the 25th anniversary.
Boxster. Boxster has the four liter.
Yeah, it's a cool car.
There's like a one that's like the very first Boxster,
which is kind of a silver color with a blood red interior.
It's absolutely gorgeous.
So that would be my choice for cars
that I would love to buy.
And those were when they first came out there,
like in the high 90s,
and they're still selling used for like 105.
And there's a thing happening with Porsche
where I think Porsche has lost the plot
in terms of its value for money.
I always think Porsche was the attainable super car
or sports car.
And now they've become unattainable for many people,
including the Cayman slash Boxster.
And of course there's an electric one coming,
supposedly, and I think that's gonna be,
that might be the same issue we had
with the charger, right?
Where it's dead on arrival.
Scroll down, Cole, is that the last one?
That's the last one.
Oh no, Subaru Legacy.
Oh, nothing to say about that.
Oh, I have something to say about that.
So, you know, after we did that video with Subaru
going back and showing why we got blacklisted,
the fine folks at Subaru said we weren't blacklisted
and they would get us, this is now four weeks ago,
five weeks ago, that they would get us a Subaru.
Have you seen a Subaru in our driveway
or in our garage, Tommy?
No, and yet have I seen an email from Subaru,
so I think that, we may not be on a blacklist,
but maybe it's like a dark blue list.
So, I think there's a good shot there.
Yeah, I don't think we,
we're not gonna be reviewing any Subaru's anytime soon.
But we will be reviewing this soon, the VZ4X.
It's just a rebrand, they got rid of the four,
when I first heard it.
I remember I was at the unveiling of this
and the Subaru PR person.
What was her name?
She was really fun.
She's no longer with Toyota.
She told me the name and I had to go back to her
like three times and ask her what the name of it was
such a hard time revving my head around VZ4X.
And the once I kind of got used to it,
I kind of figured it out,
but now I don't have to worry about anymore
because it's just the VZ.
Well, so it was actually supposed to be
a whole line of vehicles.
So VZ stands for beyond zero, means it's electric.
What was the four X stand for?
Four was supposed to be the size.
So there's supposed to be a VZ3, VZ4, VZ5.
And what's the X, all wheel drive?
Our crossover.
So like there may have been a VZ5X
and a VZ3C or whatever,
but that never ended up happening.
So they got rid of the VZ4X thing
and now they're just calling it VZ.
By the way, I just just saw the new Superman
and there's a new Toyota VZ in the new Superman movie.
Nice.
What is it with car?
He doesn't drive it, but it is in the movie.
I think if car companies have a blind spot,
it's when it comes to naming conventions.
Is it because of the committees?
No, it's like new CEOs come in
and the easiest way to put their stamp on the company
is to let's change all the names of things
because that's what happens.
They just also think committees.
There's some data set somewhere
that says people like this thing
and then they just go with that.
But look, I'll give you an example.
I'll give you two, three examples, okay?
Of car names that just work.
Okay.
Mustang.
Sure.
Anything with an actual animal
associated with this is pretty good.
Charger.
Yeah.
Right.
Anything that's cool and like, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Or a cool number like 9-11.
How is that a cool number?
It just is.
9-11 is just cool.
How about 405?
RAV4.
That is not cool.
That is cool.
I like RAV4.
It is, it works.
RAV4 works better than BZ4X.
How about CRV?
Yeah, I know.
How come CRV isn't cool but RAV4 is cool?
Because RAV is like ravioli and ravioli is cool.
God.
All right, what's next?
Volvo S60.
All the sedans are going away.
Great car.
Small, fun to drive.
They're very good looking.
And the V60 Polestar is one of my best paper cars
I've ever driven.
Yeah, but no one's buying sedan so any sedan is right now.
Yeah.
But that's a cool car.
And I think they were made in the US, too.
You think sedans will ever come back?
No.
Really?
SUVs for most people are just better.
They sit higher, they hold more stuff.
They're easy to get rid of.
People don't care about handling for the most people.
They're a little bit less efficient
but they're not that much less efficient
and they're just a better form factor
for holding people in things.
It's closer to a bubble when people just want to be driving
in bubbles.
But there's something much classier about a sedan.
I agree but people would rather hold their groceries
than be classy.
All right, keep going.
I'm sure that's another sedan.
S90, the ultimate livery car.
Pretty much every time I go on a press trip now
I'm in the back of an S90.
Really?
They are very comfy.
I think that's seriously the only people
that bought this car was liveries.
I've never seen a normal person buy a S90.
I feel like Lincoln should have kept the continental.
This is the new continental.
I think they could have done well with just livery.
I think they could have sold, let's say 20,000 a year
with just livery companies.
I like those a lot though.
Very comfy and very...
Well, if you run a livery company.
Premium.
And obviously then you want to get a suburban
or an escalator.
The problem is those suck gas like crazy.
S90.
They don't.
I think that's the last one.
No, there's more.
That's it.
Is that it?
That's all we got.
Wait, sure?
I thought there was more.
It's Volvo.
We lost there's something that aren't there.
Like what?
The escape is going away and the Corsair.
Is it?
Yeah.
So the escape of course is going away because of the fact
that the Bronco Sport is selling so well.
And let's face it, the escape was never
the hottest, greatest car.
It was always kind of the first gen.
The first couple of gens were really good.
So there's a cautionary note with the escape.
When you take a car that's kind of square jawed
like the first escape was and kind of off-roading
and then turn it into more of like a mainstream middle
of the road car, it just becomes boring.
And the Corsair, I think it's a Corsair, right?
That's the escape.
Yeah, same issue basically.
The other one that's going away
is just the last GT-R just rolled off the assembly line
for the R35 that's going away.
So of all these cars, we talked about which one should
people buy now.
Which one?
I don't know which one.
I think if you say which one should people buy,
probably go with the Polestar 2.
I would say the Acura.
If you should.
But the one that I would buy, I would buy a 718,
obviously, if I could afford it.
If I couldn't afford it, which I right now can't,
because we've bought too many classic old cars,
crappy old classic cars, and now I
have to fix a whole other story there.
I would go with the Acura.
You're right, the TLX is a pretty damn good car.
Also expensive though.
Yeah, but if you can find one in a deal,
I'm not sure you could find a deal on one,
but that's the best car on the list.
Or a Cybertruck.
No, God, not the Cybertruck.
Someone left us a comment on our Patreon on YouTube.
Cole, can you want to pull that up?
We got one comment.
Woohoo, thank you for leaving us a comment.
We appreciate it.
It was on, oh boy.
Oh boy.
Things are moving slow here.
No, it wasn't there, Cole.
It was on the actual YouTube stream.
And if you're watching this,
thank you for watching it live.
Oh, what's the comment?
Versus the McCon EV with an off-roading trim
would be cool, love the look of the Taycan.
Yeah, like a cross-terismo.
McConn I think would be pretty neat.
You know, the first Cayenne was very off-roady.
And yet, and actually even BMW built an X5
that was off-roady.
And you know that Mercedes still builds
an off-road wagon.
Yeah, the E450 all-terrain.
Yeah, but nobody buys them.
Nobody thinks the German cars is off-roady anymore,
except for the G-wagon.
Yeah, the E450 all-terrain is actually pretty cool though.
I like that thing a lot.
So this is a good place.
If you have any questions for us,
if you're out there car shopping
and you want to tap into the experience
that Tommy and I have had basically driving
every new car except for the crazy ones,
then we'd love to help you.
So be part of the community, right Tommy?
Yeah, so leave us comments on Patreon
and we will read them on the air
and answer your questions directly.
So a big thank you to everyone on Patreon.
Patreon.com, slash, TFO car,
who help us out, you make it possible.
Yep.
Exactly, right?
And you saw it first.
Yep.
We'll see you next time, ciao.
Bye.
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About this episode
Exploring the automotive landscape of 2023, this episode dives into cars that have struggled in the market, highlighting models that have 'crashed and burned' and those that are being discontinued. The hosts discuss the disappointing launch of the electric Dodge Charger Daytona, the polarizing Jaguar 00 prototype, and the potential bargains available as manufacturers clear out inventory. With insights on various brands like Acura, Audi, and Porsche, the episode provides valuable advice for car shoppers looking for deals on soon-to-be-discontinued models.
In this episode of TFL Car Chat, Roman and Tommy sound the alarm on the cars that crashed and burned this year—models that are either disappearing from the market or flopping so hard they may never recover. From discontinued vehicles that could soon be bargains on dealer lots to flashy new releases that failed to deliver, the guys break down what went wrong and where savvy shoppers might find deals.
They also highlight some of the most talked-about flops of the year, including the Dodge Charger Daytona and Tesla Cybertruck, and discuss what their struggles mean for the future of performance cars and EVs. It’s a candid conversation about bad bets, bargain opportunities, and the changing automotive landscape that every car enthusiast will want to hear.