Ep.301 – Paul di Resta

So, nightclub, day shift cleaner.

The only DTM driver we've met who actually liked DTM.

And Monaco resident who doesn't cycle.

Paul DiResta, if you could describe this lunch, we just had one word.

What would it be?

And now you put me on the spot there, didn't you?

I didn't hear it at all.

We just gave you all the time to think about it.

I was like, now I'm frozen.

You saved one word.

I didn't think it was going to go to that.

I didn't think it was going there.

I thought it was just going to be one word.

What do you got?

What's the word?

Yeah, that's all.

Oh, now we need to admit it again.

Now have you?

We're not adding anything.

Yeah, if we just cut it right after we were bickering,

that'd be perfect.

What did you have the first time?

I was just going to say honest.

That's totally perfect.

No, no, no, but.

And now for Dinner with Racers, presented by.

Continental tire.

With your hosts, Ryan Eversley and Sean Heckman.

Play holder, radio set.

It is false.

I've been driving on very angry.

This is the sound of a driver on the radio during a race.

What do you think I should go to?

H-H-H-N-O-N-O.

Hey, woo!

We're back.

It's Dinner with Racers.

We are back.

It's the holiday season.

You're clicking play because we have yet another launch

of Dinner with Racers podcast, the normal ones, Ryan.

That's right.

It is 10 years in the making.

Dinner with Racers.

10 years.

10 year anniversary.

Can you believe it's been 10 years?

I don't want to.

I don't want to believe it's been 10 years.

But it's been 10 years of making this show alongside you.

Many, many miles driven on many, many Continental tires

and many meals had with some of the biggest names

in motorsports.

And one big name that came to mind this year

that we tried to get while doing our Daytona trip was

Paul DeResta.

That's right.

Paul DeResta, Ryan.

If you're unfamiliar with Paul DeResta,

he's a guy that's been around for quite a bit.

He comes from a very, very famous family.

If you've heard our Dario Franckini episode,

you've heard his name mentioned before.

But his driving career has spanned quite a few different

accomplishments.

He's a DTM driver.

He drove in Formula One.

He's currently driving with United Auto Sports

in the P2 category, in which he won Daytona not too long

after we did this recording.

So it was kind of a cool deal.

Yeah, we go down to Daytona for our normal racing

commitments.

And what we try to do is grab a few guests that

are going to be there that are from overseas that we

normally wouldn't be able to get.

So having Paul meet up with us

was a nice treat, especially because he doesn't know us at all.

And so he was walking into this thing,

not having a clue who we were.

I don't think he still does.

But he was great.

He talked a lot about some of the things going on in Formula

One, not only as a broadcaster, but as a driver.

Talked about his family members.

And also gave us kind of a preview of how he thought

the weekend was going to go, as well as a Pugio hypercar

preview.

Now Paul told us a lot of different stories,

as you mentioned.

But he says one landmark thing in DWR history

Ryan, yeah, some of the things you're going to hear about,

which this one really threw us through a loop was a DWR

first that he does not hate DTM dealing with people who don't

drive, but they think they know better than your commentary.

And again, he does not hate DTM and much, much more

from a man who's very serious about his racing.

Now we went to Dahlia Mexican Kitchen at Daytona Beach

right across from the Speedway, formerly eight there

with, I believe, Mike Rock and Valor.

So second visit and they're excellent.

Yeah, they're lovely and very, very accommodating.

So if you're in town and you want to go get a quick bite,

please head over to Dahlia Mexican Kitchen.

I had the chicken tacos.

And at Dahlia Mexican Kitchen I had the chicken sandwich,

Ryan, ten years of chicken sandwiches, ten years.

I'm so over this bit.

Yeah, ten years.

You know what I'm not over showing?

Because when we were recording this, it didn't exist,

but it does now.

Our brand new Patreon.

Oh, we have a Patreon.

Tell me about this Patreon, Ryan.

This is the first time people are hearing about it.

That's right, patreon.com forward slash DWR show,

where we are offering a behind the scenes

extra content sort of program

where we're going over stories that didn't make the cut.

We're doing behind the scenes stories.

We're also talking about the guests

in a little bit more detail,

just because we can't fit everything into these podcasts,

as well as giving previews to our Patreon members.

They get to know who's gonna be on the show

well ahead of anyone else

and get to ask a couple of them questions.

And so you'll hear during some of these episodes this year,

questions from our Patreon members,

which you too can become one

by going to patreon.com forward slash DWR show.

But you know what also keeps this show going, Ryan?

Dinner with racers?

No, Paul Diret, no.

No, a sponsor.

I'm talking about sponsors, Ryan.

Oh God, I know this one.

I think you know this one.

Continental Tire.

Hashtag dinner with Conti.

Continental Tire.

They were with us from literally day one.

10 years later, they're still with us.

They're still keeping the show on the road.

But what makes this show work is data.

And so if you're on Instagram, Instagram

being their preferred method of social media,

if you have anything that makes you think

of Dinner with Racers, you buy a set of Continental Tires,

you see a Continental Anything.

You see something that reminds you of us.

You post that, you tag Continental Tire,

but more importantly, you use hashtag dinner with Conti.

Hashtag dinner with Conti tells Continental Tire

that you are paying attention, that you're a fan of us

and you're really engaged with everything they do.

Or if you're on Instagram

or you go to dinnerwithracers.com on both accounts,

you'll see there's a link to check out Continental Tire

and their lovely line of tires.

Those links tell Continental Tire that we sent you,

they are trackable links and that trackable data

tells Continental that what they do with us is effective.

So you don't have to buy tires,

you just have to let them know you we sent you.

So dinnerwithracers.com and Instagram,

go to that, learn more about Continental Link.

Now this year, we were very fortunate

to have a new special driver.

Who is that, Sean?

Well, there's a lot of special drivers.

But I'm thinking you're talking about

the very enthusiastic and excited to be there.

Shane Van Gisburg.

I'm Shane Van Gisburg and I'm totally driving

this GM product of a minivan.

Thanks, Shane.

Really appreciate you driving

and your love of doing that bit.

Take it away, Paul de Resta.

Meow.

Meow, meow, meow, meow.

All right, we're gonna start in five, four, three, two.

How's it going?

Hey, Sean.

Nice to meet you, man.

Ryan, nice to meet you, Paul.

So we've done these with Rene Rast,

Farfus.

Rock and Feller.

Yeah, Rock and Feller, your teammate.

We did Felipe.

And then also, I always think Tinknull, it's not Tinknull.

Oliver Jarvis.

The other Tinknull.

Yeah, the other Harry Tinknull.

Yeah.

But the common theme that we've learned

is that everybody that raced in DTM,

even if they won the championship,

f***ing hated it.

Why?

The politics, the pressure.

He's our first Mercedes DTM.

Well, I'll also say, like, you've...

Well, Rene hated it as well.

Rene absolutely hated it.

And obviously, legend of f***ing DTM

had like the good ear of the car.

Yeah, so you might be the first one

that's actually raced in it that was like,

no, I was all right.

You're shocked at the hate of DTM.

Yeah, I mean, I find it hard for people to say

they hate something that kind of got them on the map

and they're sitting here talking to you.

Sure, I should.

Yeah.

Yeah, there was a lot of politics in it,

but I mean, you don't get better manufacturers

than race DTM, do you?

No, no.

The Audi and BMW, the powerhouse of any luxury car

that's usable from a family point of view,

just sports car point of view.

So the vast majority of our guys were Audi guys.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, there was even, you know,

if you're Oli D'Arvas, you know,

it's easy to say that he didn't get the good map

or the good whatever because they wanted

the German rock and fellow to do well or whatever.

I think success is a big way in DTM

if you've enjoyed it or not enjoyed it.

But that's what I was thinking.

But then you get Rene,

Rene was successful and German.

And they both hated it as well.

But there was always a, you wanted to get the good splitter,

you wanted to get the good map

that other people weren't getting.

And strategy was obviously a huge thing

in terms of there's only so many strategies

and a lot of times one strategy

would support somebody else.

And that was in, I know with Audi

that was a very big thing.

And even Rene, who obviously had a lot of good years there,

hated it.

I think the thing to sum up DTM,

you know, it's not like you're in a two car team.

Right, right.

You've got seven guys with the same equipment as you.

Yeah, right.

So when you're having a bad day,

you're having a bad f***ing day.

If you're having an average day, you're mid-pack.

You're still having a good day.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think as long as you get your head around that, but...

Was Mercedes the same way where six other guys

would do an offsetting strategy to support one of the guys?

Yeah, at times, I mean, I lost championships

because other manufacturers and other guys were against me.

But I can't, I mean, I can look back and see it was hard.

There was a lot of politics involved in it.

But at the same time, you know,

there were pretty good people

and it was very professional.

And I don't even think endurance touches

how professional it was actually.

Sure.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, I understand that.

You know, it was like Formula One just below it and another level.

Yeah, yeah, with a roof basically.

When you look at the background and the teams

and the effort that was going into it,

you know, I sometimes have to...

When I come here and I'm like,

we're racing out the back of a truck.

You know, like, we're honestly sitting on the back of an axle.

You know, normally your career goes one way.

You know, you've got to climb through it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'm back to basics.

I'm back to like a mobile driver cupboard and, you know, a DTM.

Yeah, it was proper structure and...

Unbelievable, unbelievable, yeah.

And that's why I find it like I'm a bit shocked to hear that.

Really? Interesting.

So you don't have anything bad to say about your DTM time?

It was sprint racing.

It was tough, but I don't think any sport's not tough

when you're in it, sure.

At that level too.

I can look back and find memories

and say I've met some great people,

great friends along the way.

Loved the racing at times.

It was very German.

But if he extracted that, I don't know who else, you know,

I don't think people appreciated it enough

from the outside that maybe, you know,

across the side of the world,

understood it properly, but you were in it and poised it.

To the level of sophistication?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I can honestly look back and say it started my career.

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, because you were the era where

if you were doing well in DTM,

it would potentially get you to the F1 paddock, you know,

because once you've hit the ceiling,

because you won F3, now they have to put you somewhere

because there's only so many seats.

So if you go to DTM at that point,

it's because they're waiting to find a place for you,

and with obviously Mercedes having such a big influence.

100%.

Yeah, yeah, because that's where I first started

seeing your name, because F3 at this point

in North America is not really that followed,

you know what I mean?

So then when you go to DTM and as a sports car driver,

I was like, oh, okay, this guy must be pretty good.

And you're related to the Frankies

and I love those guys.

So you start showing up on the map in DTM

and like kicking ass.

I was like, oh, this guy is pretty awesome.

Yeah, I mean, the guy that was still there

with Dario was there, Gerhard Unger was there.

You know, he was the guy that was in charge when I was there.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it was Dario that introduced me to Gerhard

at the time, although I'm sure it still would have happened.

Yeah, and just for those who don't know,

so Dario and Marina, Franky, you're your cousin.

Yes.

Yeah.

And yeah, like I say, I think you go,

I went into, Mercedes picked me up,

put me in Formula 3 to prepare me for DTM.

So it was always a route.

Okay.

So to kind of go back to your comment

about racing out of the back of a truck,

your career starts in karting underneath your dad,

who was a Formula 4 to 1600 guy, right?

And he was pretty much self-funding you

out of his businesses.

Yes.

But not to the level of some of the guys

you were racing against, right?

No, I mean, I'm quite clear.

And I'm sure Dario would say, wouldn't make it now.

Yeah.

Wouldn't happen.

We wouldn't even consider it with the effort that went in.

You know, and my dad was a massive part.

Dario's journey was, my dad did a lot of it.

Right.

What did you do for a living?

My dad, a car dealer, nightclub,

but this and that, nothing, you know, nothing.

But the fortunate thing I think that myself and Dario had,

our families could do it, they did it.

They were the ones going to the track.

They were the ones mechanic

and they were the ones taking care of it all.

Not like turning up with a team

and you know, disappeared in the hotel at night.

It was there, it was their effort.

It was their journey.

It was actually their journey to be honest

if you look at it.

Dario essentially was the one that kind of got you

to come drive his car.

Is that how it went?

No.

No, no, sorry, sorry.

Your dad was the one that put Dario in a car at first time.

That's what it was.

Yeah, exactly.

So what's your dad's influence in racing

or where's that stuff from?

I don't know where dad actually got into it.

I mean, obviously the days you started

when you were like 14,

I know my dad's dad hated it.

My dad's mom supported it.

Okay, so your dad,

so your grandfather did not come from racing.

Not a thing at all.

Nothing at all, you know,

and he was totally against it.

And this is a back gate?

It was Whitburn at the time.

So my dad's mom was the one that kind of drip fed my dad

and let my dad kind of get into it.

And yeah, we went from there.

So dad did a bit of like,

I would say very high level club racing,

but it was decent.

And back in the days, it was a decent level.

You could go there, race Formula 4 1600 at a good level.

That's where...

So if his dad, where did it come from for him?

I have no idea.

I've never actually asked that question.

I've never even...

Jim Clark or any of that, yeah, yeah, right.

I'm not even sure how we got into it in that sense.

But he started it at age

and he balanced it with business and all the rest.

And dad, you know,

all the way when I was driving cars from I was two

to, you know, till I started racing

and it got serious.

I would say when I was like seven, seven and a half

like starting to prepare for what it was.

And I suppose through everything at it.

And I did, my dad actually erased

the old to the senior class at my first race weekend.

And that's when my dad retired after the first weekend.

He went, that's it, I'm done.

Because him having to race

and having to deal with you racing was too much.

He saw the enjoyment, he got out doing it with me.

He saw I was decent at it straight away.

And he went, I actually get more of a kick out doing that.

And he literally retired the first.

So I was eight on the Saturday,

raced on the Sunday and he stopped.

Yeah, wow.

So you ruined his career.

Yeah, about six.

I'm not saying he ruined his career,

but yeah, I made it difficult for him.

He stopped, you know, and he literally turned it off

like straight there and then, you know,

and I grew up round the Formula Ford Festival and round.

Yeah, but I was like,

because where were Dario and Marino at this point?

Vauxhall Junior, probably.

Yeah, yeah.

So basically Junior, single-seater stuff.

Maybe Formula Three.

Sure.

But enough to have graduated from Cards

and now you can see parts of the family.

There's 14 years between that.

There's a path there.

Yeah, you're seeing like,

okay, I keep that this or somewhere to go.

I would even further on that.

Maybe he was in DTM.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So he's pretty far along.

So real somebody you can really look up to.

Yes, exactly.

So your dad won like four championships.

Is that right?

Yeah.

I mean, you've probably done more research on me.

Okay, I was gonna say, did he race against anybody

we would know now that that continued on?

All of them.

So he's racing.

I mean, if I, I mean, doing the Formula Ford Festival,

you know, like good friends of mine,

you talk about Scottish guys.

Dad raced against Allen initials.

He raced against David Coulthard all his life.

You know, he raced against all these guys,

the, you know, the generation

that I'm also friendly.

And that's one of the Scots.

Never mind.

Everybody raced at the Formula Ford Festival

on those days in 1600.

I still remember watching my dad was racing Magnus,

and when Magnus won the Formula Ford Festival,

you know, I can still vision standing at Paddock Hill

when he went round the outside of the guy

in the yellow car.

Yeah.

What do you want to, you know?

That's cool.

It's the kind of thing I was around,

you know, I was around that and dad was in that race.

Although they were with the works team,

my dad still made like the main event

and stuff like that.

So it was a decent enough level that

when you're a man in a van.

Yeah, right.

You know, I still,

towns when you were in the, you know,

heads first down in the car,

you know, Hoover and Graveler,

if it'd been in the gravel and stuff like that.

You know, I've had all that journey.

So, you know, remember the cold autumn mornings

down at Brands Hatch driving in the track.

Yeah.

So part of it.

Yeah.

Does that have like a nostalgic feel for you nowadays?

Like look back at it?

Yeah, it does.

She clearly hates working out of the back of the truck.

Oh no.

Jesus.

That's different, though, than it's your own.

But yes, it does.

And, you know, riding around in your quads,

you know, I was fully immersed in it.

I don't actually remember

going to much of Dario's until I went to the first kind of memory.

I've got a scene, Dario racing properly.

It was probably Donnington in DTM when I went there

before that, too young, you know,

because it was just where it is.

But obviously the times of them there and then, yeah.

I mean, the first time I was in a car,

he was there and stuff like that.

So it's, you know.

Your parents got divorced when you were four.

Is that right?

Three.

So what happened?

Like, like, who'd you end up living with full time?

And so I live with my dad.

My brother lived with my mom.

Oh, OK, wow.

Dario's younger, so I guess it suited me

to go to racetracks all the time.

Right.

Maybe that's what it was.

I never ever asked why it was.

I've got great relationships with both my mom and dad.

But, you know, it may be in, you know, I'm not saying

I never ever wanted to be in a split family.

But if you look at it, it allowed me to do what I wanted

my career and nothing interrupted it.

Did your mom ever object to the racing?

No.

OK, OK.

So it wasn't like being with dad more.

No, I'm fully supported.

No, no, no, I'm fully supported.

It was never like that, you know.

I guess that was a really good thing about it.

Bottom line is, you know, your dad was fairly competitive

himself.

I don't know if this was necessarily

a career aspiration for him against everybody else

that he was racing with, if he's trying to make all this work.

Yeah, I guess it was.

I mean, I guess he saw Dario go quite, you know,

what he did then saw Dario do what he'd done.

And then I guess it was natural that I was next in line

and going to follow him.

Well, I think for your dad, he wasn't

able to sort of be a pro racer.

No, he couldn't.

You know, by the time he was, you know, he was buying businesses

when he was 17, 18 and, you know,

and trying to get the balance of trying to do that.

And everybody knows nightclubs work at the weekend.

You've raced the weekend, so it's like trying to do stuff like that.

Well, I guess that's where I'm going.

It's like he knows his career of making a racer

isn't going to happen.

Yes.

So the second he sees you get in a go-kart

and enjoy it at eight years old, he now says this.

And the success, I think, is a big thing.

Was this something you instantly knew could be for you?

I never, ever had a backup.

So I always had the kind of vision that did I ever think

when I was nine, 10, I'm going to be, you know,

thinking about the rest of it and sitting on the Gruden F1.

No, it was kind of like take it step by step.

And there was no end goal.

But at the same point, there was nothing standing in my way

to get me to the top.

I just wanted to keep going up the stairs.

And, you know, I didn't have the vision of like somebody

you see them at 13.

Oh, you know, that's what it was more about.

How can we get to the next bit, next bit, next bit,

next bit, next bit?

Maybe a bit more for granted because you see what Dario's

doing, like going in the car races and stuff like that

and being involved in it.

So I guess when you're surrounded by it, it's less...

You're kind of naive to the failure

because you're not seeing it.

Yes.

All right, so you're karting.

You're going step by step.

Eventually the single-seater stuff starts to open up.

How was this, if your dad's trying to make it come

together, how was this coming together for you?

It was hard and, you know, I think the biggest thing

was budgets getting there.

I went to cars earlier than we envisioned as well

because I was too tall, too heavy for go-karts.

I was struggling.

Naturally then, I would say 18 was the time

that people would make the move.

I went very early.

I went when I was 16, which was kind of, you know,

before times then.

But if you look at it, maturity,

I probably was, I needed another year.

The plan was just to try and combine a bit of karting

and that, but at some point you just have to stand out and go.

And fortunately, the first year was rough.

I wouldn't say it was easy.

I wasn't even driving on the road at the time.

And I think a lot of the kids, you know,

when you're still getting driven to the track by your parents,

it's a bit, you know, all right,

you can unleash this car on the track,

but you can't even get yourself there.

Not allowed.

Was a bit, you know, now.

I mean, they're still at school and they're driving cars.

But that's not how it was then.

Sure.

You know, you had to look at a road map to get to the track

rather than somebody just take you.

Well, go-karts now have load-in days.

So it's a very different world.

Yeah, yeah.

And then it picked up from that.

You know, it picked up from that and it was not easy

because we were not, like, picking the best teams

and picking that.

It was more just, like, trying to get any opportunity.

And I always say that to people, like, you got to look,

you know, you can't just look who's winning championship.

You've got to look at the kids that are maybe

in the second or third best team

because are they outperforming where the car is?

Or whatever, yeah, exactly.

And that's exactly how it got picked up by Mercedes

because not necessarily the best team

but doing a good enough job that they see potential in you.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, I'd say you famously were with Mercedes

all the way from F3 on.

But to start when you're racing Formula 4s,

which to your own point, your results

if you look at Formula 4, they were good, but they weren't.

They weren't championship stuff a couple wins here and there.

It wasn't until I got to Formula 3 that started to happen

with Mercedes support.

But it was a young driver that, to your thing,

that Mercedes picked me up on the back of.

I did 10 laps in the GTM car.

And that was it.

They were in.

They were like, yes.

So this has come up on a couple things.

You won the McLaren Young Driver Award.

So the strange thing was I got dispensation

to go into the McLaren Autosport Award early

because you shouldn't have been in that till you were 18.

And you couldn't have raced Formula 3.

So I got dispensation to do it

because I was going into Formula 3 and I qualified for it.

So I went and did the award.

And I think it was like an October

with the announcement in December.

And having driven the GTM car, I thought

I did a good job in the car.

They were happy with it.

But within that October to December,

they signed me up already for Formula 3.

And they'd signed me up and they were prepared to,

if I won the award with the money,

I'd put them in a Formula 3 budget.

If I didn't, they were prepared to write it.

And they were like, so.

And the contract was done before going to the award.

But they're obviously, they know more than me.

I didn't know any of the data or anything

of where you were.

So.

In hindsight, when you look back,

you can kind of say, well, it must have went well because.

Yeah, they would have done that.

And in that time when it happened,

that's when the business got done.

How did the Mercedes hook up even start?

Well, I drove the Mercedes there.

And I think on the back of that,

I did the award and I, Dario,

to go out and meet Gerhard.

He obviously knows you from years of work,

but go out and meet him at Hockenheim.

So me and my dad went out

and I had a 20 minute conversation with Gerhard,

picked up from that.

Yeah.

Then obviously, Norbert Coug was in there then,

but my main contact there was Gerhard Unger

and Hans Jürgen Matthäus.

They were the two kind of guys at the top of that level.

And they were the same people when Dario was there.

And obviously, Dario had a long history with Mercedes.

He had an old town, and he was in the big car,

and yeah, yeah.

Make that reputation.

Exactly.

And Gerhard's still a very close friend to this day.

A very close friend.

What's your dad's personality like towards you

when you're coming up?

We spoke, one of our former guest, Alex Bowman,

NASCAR driver, his dad owns a paint body shop.

And he was like, if this doesn't work out,

you're working for me in this paint body shop.

Is there any encouragement, like you're

going to be working at the nightclub?

Or was it like?

100% I wasn't in a free ride.

Like some holidays where you're up at 8 o'clock

and you're doing something.

You're not lying in your bed.

You're actively involved.

You're not out messing around.

I left school two years early.

Same.

You're straight, you know, like you

are working in the nightclub during the day.

You are doing stuff.

You're, you know, whether it's cleaning.

So did you have to work at your dad's nightclub?

Yeah, but I wasn't working at it at night, obviously.

But I was stalking it, and I was doing the orders,

doing the change orders, doing the tills.

I was fully into the business as best I could.

So if it could happen, I was into it.

And it was anything.

It was anything involved with him going

places, dealing with things.

In those days, it just, it was what it was.

And I remember, I was 15.

I had left school.

I was working alongside my dad's kind of right-hand man

at the time, and he was going to Australia for five weeks.

And it was the first time he'd ever left for more than a week.

And Dad went, there's keys.

Get on with it for five weeks.

You've got to do the day-to-day stuff that you do with him.

Right.

The orders, the change order.

You got to make sure it's, I just went, get on with it.

Yeah, wow.

Make sure it's organized.

You just tell me what it is, and I'll

do like what he does to me.

Was it your idea to leave school earlier?

Was it his?

No, it became a point when at that time, the school said to me,

I said to my dad, there's no, we're just getting in the way here.

You're actually going to be far better off.

Exactly what my family did.

You know, leaving and concentrating.

Fortunately, it worked out.

He said, I will make life difficult,

because at that time, you couldn't do it.

I will make life difficult for them.

The time it happened, it was too late to be in that year.

But what we did do is I did private tuition at home.

That's exactly what I did.

This is literally what I did, yeah.

I did an hour of each subject every week.

Yep.

And I had like an hour and a half of homework per week

for that subject.

And can I say that last year, my capacity just

went through the roof, because they're

watching over the top of you.

They're actually, as soon as you go wrong, that's wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the amount of things you just pulled up.

And I mean, I hated it because you were stuck

in the dining room at home.

Like working with this teacher one on one,

but they were on top of me.

And I did that for the last year and a half.

But this lack of a fallback plan is a common thing.

Because racing's commitment is so high

that if you think you have a backup plan,

your commitment just isn't there.

I wasn't one for lying around anyway.

I'm not a person that lies in bed.

How were you at school before this in school itself?

Average, I would say.

Average kind of middle of the road.

But I'm far more hands-on person.

I'm not, definitely not.

I think about bit dyslexic, in a sense.

My wife will even say to me, you definitely

that's not that.

And I'm like, yeah, but I'm seeing it as that.

Just calm down.

She's gradually got into it.

And her daughter's a bit the same.

And I think she's, that obviously went over to her.

So she's kind of, she gives me a bit less

of a hard time about it.

And I'm like, look, you're part of this.

I'm not making this up.

I've done all right in life.

I'm not, I don't live bad, but I'm certainly not.

And I'm not, I know right away.

I'm the person, like everybody says,

like I met Dario, I used to pick books up

and read them and read them.

And then just put them all on a shelf.

I could think nothing worse than picking a book up

and reading it.

Like that's just not me.

I'm just totally against reading books.

Cause my mind can't, I can't focus on my mind.

My mind goes somewhere else.

And I think about what I've got to do.

That's ADHD, that's not dyslexia.

And I'm just, whatever it is.

But it's, you know, and then I watch my son,

who is a massive reader, literally picks a book up.

And I always can tell the difference with somebody

because my son can be reading the book

and I have no idea what's happening around them.

I will be sure where it was happening around

and reading the book.

That's where I'm at now.

How is he in the cart so far?

He's not, he loves it, but he's not interested in doing it.

He's just, no, I mean, he's got this,

he's got this, but he loves horses.

No, definitely not.

He's got this fear of hurting himself, you know.

Oh, he analyzes things too much.

So he's smarter than us.

You know, and he's apprehensive, you know,

when you go in things,

but as soon as you get into something, he's fine.

But he knows everything about the sport and does it,

but I think you'll want to work in it,

like engineering or something like that.

I think he's doing it.

Engineering's better than PR.

How is the, do you think that,

cause your daughter's a little younger, right?

She's a year and a half younger.

Okay, so she's showing signs of interest in it at all?

Nope, not at all.

She's really, she loves being around him.

She's like, to be honest,

you know, I haven't been honest about this.

I would want to do the journey.

I would find it very hard to be able to put any time into it.

I think the funding involved in it now is excessive.

To take them on their journey.

And I would want some day also do it

as much as my dad would love to do it.

But I've still hopefully got like six or seven years ahead

of me, you're doing fine.

If that takes me to the, then they're 16,

which is already too late.

Yeah, right, right.

And I very much want them part of their career.

And as much as I feel I'd be the right person

to take them through it, unless he's pulling my arm,

the sacrifice, I'd find it like,

I'd find it very hard to do the moment.

If he can't fight for himself, it's not gonna work.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's crazy now, isn't it?

Where it's going.

So, but if he wants to do it, how can I say no?

My dad's always said to me,

how can you ever say no and you can't?

You've got to give him a chance.

Yeah.

So you're married, you've got a couple of kids,

how'd you meet your wife?

We met at my dad's nightclub of all things.

At your, at what?

At my dad's nightclub we met.

Cause you met at 18, right?

Yeah.

Very young.

Yeah, 17, just about to turn 18 actually.

So yeah, we've been together a long time.

Now is that the twig?

Yes.

Okay.

Is that still in the family business?

Yeah, it's still there.

Sell us on the twig.

Yeah, yeah, we were in town.

Yeah.

Well, it was the place years ago.

Definitely was the place.

My dad's had it a long time.

It's been many good memories in there, many good times.

But yeah, we met in there, just so.

Now did you use the line that?

Yeah.

She chased me actually.

Oh!

She chased me.

Is it because you're part of the ownership?

I was gonna say,

because I own this place.

No, no, no, no, not at all, but.

And randomly, which is very odd,

my mom's sister used to live next door to my wife's family.

So, you know, it's not gonna sound,

but there's actually a picture of me and my wife together

when we were about three,

like a local Gallaudet it's called,

like a local fair,

of which we discovered many years later.

That's so cool.

Because you used to live next door.

You know what I mean, right?

Yeah.

Never.

That's amazing.

So why is she at the nightclub?

Why was she there?

Is she the same age?

Yes.

Is that what you're talking about?

Exactly the same age.

Look at her.

She's looking at Paul Rutts stuff.

She's just an 18-year-old looking for young, skinny, 17-year-olds.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

Mind their own business.

But the very cool thing we've had,

we've traveled the world together.

She's been there since the very start,

from Lorena, when it was all,

she could see the family pouring

as much as they could into it.

Right through to getting to F1,

you know, right from the start

of what is junior racing,

the emotions through it.

Did she ever explain why she chased you?

If this is indeed true.

Paul.

It's obvious, isn't it?

You're Monaco now, right?

Who's in your building?

No drivers.

Well, wait.

Yeah, yeah.

Tennis.

Tennis players call first.

Famous.

You never know in Monaco, do you?

Right.

You never know.

I mean, no.

It's influencers now.

Right.

It's sort of an Instagram model.

Someone s**t all the pockets.

No, it's not that type of building.

No.

It didn't drive fast enough

in F1 to do that.

Okay, well, you bring this up.

So you get to F1.

Basically, you get to the Mercedes-DTM program.

That goes incredibly well.

And, you know, Force India running Mercedes engines,

it seemed like you were always getting primed

to sort of potentially move over there.

You get the test driver roll with Force India.

It's kind of different now how it works,

but you had kind of a weird 2010

where you're basically running FP1

like in eight or nine of the races.

Is that a strange deal

when you're basically just running one practice

of somebody else's car?

Yeah.

It's good to crash it.

Yeah, right.

But it was the way in.

And I think they wanted to put me in earlier,

but they were obliged by a contractor

which had been done to somebody who was no longer there.

Yeah, copy.

So I think it was kind of priming me up

to be ready for the next year.

Which is also weird for him

because the writing's on the wall.

Yeah.

In a sense, yeah.

Yeah, right.

But, you know, you've got to live by that.

You know, that's just something that can be done.

And then obviously I had done three years in DTM at that point.

Yeah.

I combined the last year in DTM,

that championship year with the duties there.

Yeah.

But before that,

everyone had been building up to do it.

And then I knew where I was at the end of Formula 3,

I had a three-year deal in DTM.

I knew it was kind of there,

but after the first day after my first DTM race,

I got a call from Williams

and said, we want to take you on as the test driver

for next year.

Possibly a test driver year after,

but then you'll be guaranteed racing.

And we tried for eight months,

Frank Williams tried and tried and tried

to get me with that deal.

And at that point, they just wouldn't release me.

We wouldn't do it because of the investment.

Norbert Howe just wasn't interested in doing it.

So the Hulkenberg deal that he had,

that was my deal that they were trying to do.

No kidding.

So that first deal there.

So I kind of possibly thought the ship had sailed.

That was over.

And so we hear this a lot when people eventually

who are on the single-seater route to go to F1,

that first, I don't want to call it DTM sports cars,

but for arguments like let's call it sports cars,

that first sports car opportunity is always

a little bit hesitant.

Do I want to be a pro driver

or do I want to be a Formula One driver?

Sounds like you didn't have a choice until you did.

I think the biggest thing through it,

that Williams deal obviously passed.

Then everybody said, oh, you got to do GP2

and you got to be in a single-seater all the time.

I didn't fit in the car.

Did I want to give up racing with Mercedes,

a manufacturer?

It was going very well at that time as well.

I felt like super successful.

And I'm like, I don't really want to give this up

to go and race F2 against people

that are just desperate to get to F1, you know what I mean?

All right, when you can race

the other coolest series on the planet, so, yeah.

So it was always at balance,

but then always Martin Whitmarsh was a huge asset.

He was a huge person pushing in the background.

Martin, it got me the opportunity to force India.

You know, they had a collaboration

before India at the time.

And he said, if you're doing any assessments,

I want a pick of a driver.

And it was Martin that made sure he put me in for their pick.

And that's where I came out on top there.

But yeah, I mean, it was years and years and years.

It was a lot of like this and that,

but fortunately, got that opportunity.

Traditionally, that DTM or even like a LMP1 program,

something like that jumping back to F1 doesn't normally happen.

Was there any reservation from other people

on putting you back in?

Afterwards?

Yeah, from going from DTM back to F1.

Back to F1, no.

I guess you'd already done eight practice sessions.

I was going from DTM to F1.

No, I'd done that.

No, I think it was it was fine.

And I think when I'd done the Fridays, it was OK.

And I think that was the main thing.

That was kind of the he's approved kind of deal.

And I'd grown up racing against Lewis and Betel

and all those guys.

So I think it never obviously had good times in F1.

Well, very specifically, you beat Betel

for the F3 championship.

So I mean, I think your credentials were there.

Your brother ever tried to race?

So Stefan, living my mom, always had cars,

always came to the track with us.

He had his own car.

He played in it.

And my dad was always like, if you want to do it,

you can, you know, whenever he is there for you,

did it at a very good level.

But I just didn't quite, I think, start early enough.

And then he probably lacked that last bit of aggression.

OK, sure.

He probably lacked that last bit of getting

the most out of it.

But in terms of driver, I couldn't be him.

But he tried to get into it a bit, but it's very hard.

And then he was kind of going to get an opportunity.

And then the whole FIE grading system just bollocks it up.

What are you talking about?

You know, I remember him.

He kind of got an opportunity and he went, no, you're silver.

And he's like, I'm not even driving a car yet.

And somebody's offering me.

Because your brother is platinum, you're silver.

Yeah.

OK, surely you get the same chance everybody knows.

So they made them silver till he's 30, and then that was it.

Weird.

Yeah, I don't know anybody that's had a bad story with driver ratings.

Yeah, but it's bad, though.

Are you still platinum now?

I'm platinum, Tom.

60 of them, kind of.

I remember, honestly, the thing, honestly,

it was 2018, I came here.

And I remember filling the form on the first endurance race.

Now I wasn't that aware of what endurance race it was then.

I'd been very naive to it.

Not really paid attention because it was F1, DTM.

And then when Zach asked me to do it, I remember coming.

And I remember coming here in Max at United,

he's like, you got to fill in this FIE categorization thing.

So going through the vast amount of bollocks

it is filling all your stuff in.

So your pages and pages and pages.

And at the end it goes, have you ever had a super license?

Click.

Done.

I was like, why didn't I ask you that?

Question one, have you ever had an FIE super license?

Click it, done.

And I still remember doing it to this day,

trying to get it.

And of course, there's no point in even.

No, yeah, I think when you win a DTM championship

and do like four years in F1, yeah, there's no point.

Or you could just be a driver.

Yeah, right, yeah.

I'm perfectly fine with it.

No, no, no, understood.

But it's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

That's another check in the box.

Yeah, OK.

So, he's driver ratings, but he's OK with DTM.

Well, I just...

50-50.

I get the process and get it all, but there's some people

you look at and I just think, who's actually looking?

And I very much...

Exactly right.

When your zero-experience brother is getting silver ratings.

What I don't understand is you use it in IMSA,

but they don't pay attention to the FIE thing

and then drivers don't get bumped up

this site of the Atlantic that they should do

for the same as what they get in Europe.

Why is it different?

Yeah.

Because this is equally as high a profile.

I don't know if they use the same word in Scotland,

but there's a word here in America

that's called accountability.

And if you can dodge it, at all costs.

At all costs and just blame the Europeans.

If you ignore things, they go away.

Yeah, that's how this works, right?

I'm curious if, because the DTM thing throws me,

obviously I had a successful career in it.

It might be just Mercedes versus Audi

in terms of like in-house politics,

but one of the things that we don't have over here

like you guys do in Europe is the hate your mental,

hate your teammate mentality or at all costs, beat them.

And you obviously race against very, very good people

on very same teams and equipment and stuff like that.

So that's something that just comes natural.

Not saying you hate your teammates,

but that environment of like-

Kill everybody.

Well, you hate them, but it's enemy number one, isn't it?

Right, okay, so there you go.

Because it's your reference.

Yeah, right.

And it goes back to what I was saying.

If you've got seven teammates,

your reference against seven guys.

Yeah, right.

Same equipment.

Yeah.

So the first thing you should be focused on

is being top of your team.

Sure.

And I've always said it, you should always be,

I mean, DTM taught, you know, you've got to represent

the team, you've got to represent the manufacturer.

That's the biggest picture,

because they put the bread and butter on the table

for your family, especially when you're paid professional.

You've got to have that balance.

But if, you know, I always say to people,

if you're not prepared to fall out with somebody on track,

you're in the wrong business.

Right, right.

Because any sportsman should be looking

individually about yourself.

You've got to work together and you've got to play the game

together.

Sure.

Yeah, but you still got to look up for you.

You know, but at the same time, you've,

I don't expect anybody to treat me favorably or not.

We're in the same team.

We're just going to do this, ah, it's just, yeah.

Unless you're told to, not all.

Now, is that something that comes naturally to you?

Is that something you had to learn throughout time

with your career?

Naturally.

Yeah, copy that.

And don't let anybody know who you are either, as well.

Some people say, oh, you're very reservable.

You know, I don't come to racetracks

to go for candlelit dinners with people.

You know, I've got friends outside of racing

that I don't like talking about racing here when I'm fun with.

So you hate this right now, what we're doing?

No, but I've got great friends, but I

have turned out to have some good friends.

But I don't actively go searching for it.

Sure, sure.

If it grows, if it grows into something, great.

Is that a lack of interest in hanging out

or is that a poker face thing?

Like, I don't want to show people my hand.

No, it's just no build.

I'm just not interested in putting effort into something.

I'm not interested in it.

You definitely hate where you are right now, then.

Just admit you hate this.

We understand.

That's fine.

Very pleasant so far.

Very pleasant so far, but I'm not one for having to have

all these friends.

Warm and fuzzy.

Yeah, I get that.

Yeah.

I can see where you're coming from.

I'm the opposite, but I'm just the social that way,

you know what I mean?

But it doesn't mean I can't race

or that you couldn't be social.

Right.

Well, but still kind of looking past the next six years

of your career, you're going to hit a point potentially

if you want to keep driving.

I like that.

You're 38, right?

Yes.

I like that.

We're saying there's only six years left.

It's like, dude.

Come on.

Well, because his mind, 45 is ancient.

Yeah, it's an ancient mechanic.

God damn it.

I know.

Paul DeResta, you shut your mouth.

Even the engineers are younger than me,

you know, that's what we're doing.

You shut your beautiful Scottish mouth.

I don't want to hear it.

But there's going to hit a point.

I mean, you're driving a P2 car,

so you already do this to an extent.

But as you get further in your career,

you need to have the am like you.

And the am want to hang out with you

and go to dinner with you and the wife like you.

It becomes a bigger and bigger role,

especially as you get older.

Yeah, it does.

For a guy who's maybe not so much into the bullshitting

at dinner thing, how's that for you?

I've said it, I'm not going to be one of these guys

that's going to hang around when there's kids half

a second quicker than me and I'm letting them do the work.

I'm in this business because I still feel them.

You've got to be ready to charge anybody on the track.

I'm not going to turn up and drive around.

That's not my idea.

If you're still fast, we'll use Ben Keating.

Which you will be.

I'm not worried about your face.

But you would say the same for Dan.

Dan, who I'd share the car with, obviously, the am,

that is it.

But part of my relationship with Dan

and part of my job for Dan is to make Dan

the best am you can be.

Absolutely.

I'm the best guy.

I completely, but that's something I'm tasked with doing

and it's part of sort of doing it.

But for some of these guys, the value is not, it's partially

that, it's making them a better driver

and obviously doing your part.

But it is also the fact they want to hang out with you.

And oh, OK, sounds like this is not so much a priority

for you.

Or something you care about.

No, but the reality is there's no,

I know where you're coming from,

but if you think you're just going to come here

and go for nice dinners and the racing's on the side of it,

no, I mean, fundamentally, as long as their focus

is on racing when they're here, I get their business

as a number one priority because that's what's getting them here.

Yeah, and they're enjoying it.

And you know, and like I understand

they've got to put effort into that.

But when they're here, I want their attention

and I want to know they want the best out of themselves.

And the best out of what we can do.

If the racing's just add on for coming to meet yourself,

look like you walk about the paddock in a race suit.

I don't think I'm going to be the right person.

Between that or no ride, you'll take no ride.

I've not been faced with that yet, but I don't think

you could suffer the fool.

Like if they're like, hey, we have this guy,

he's going to be six seconds off.

He doesn't care.

I think the way I am, I mean, I'm all in when I'm here.

Yeah, I get it.

I'm all in.

So if somebody else is not all in then,

we're not going to be seeing eye to eye.

I don't think it's fair.

I don't think it's fair on the team.

Richard will tell you that.

If you know Richard Dean, you know.

Yeah, Richard Dean, who runs United Autosport

with Sac-Round.

And Richard and they'll tell you that, you know,

that's just who I am.

You know, I will do what I can.

You know, and I'm very honest

and I'm very happy to take criticism of myself.

Yeah, yeah.

And I don't mean it personally

when I tell people something's wrong

or something needs done

because we're all just trying to have

that open collaboration of raising the bar.

Yeah, you hope that's whatever.

You hope that's where it goes, isn't it?

Well, I think...

But at the same time, I never put pressure on Dan

or anybody like that.

I just try and fundamentally work with the background

and I'm not one of these people that sits there

and goes, you're doing that wrong, you know.

I always say to you, come to me when you've got a question.

But at the same time, I don't want to overstep

because you need to learn how to get that bit of out yourself

against what you're seeing.

Because if you don't understand it,

when you're faced with other situations,

how are you going to get that ingrained in there

in your knowledge and process?

Quickly, you know.

You need to understand yourself

how you're getting this beat.

By seeing it.

I mean, it's come to me, but I'm not going to sit there

and just keep watching videos and go turn in at that cone

or that.

Yeah, yeah.

Because that's not teaching them how to learn

how to get faster.

No, because the car changes.

The balance changes.

The wind changes.

And he says, oh, well, that should...

No, you know, you've got...

This is what we're doing at the moment,

but you've just got to keep building up

the foundations of what we're here to do.

So if you could summarize your Formula One career

down to like a simple thought, like how to go?

Not long enough.

Yeah.

It was faced with the...

Always faced with the task.

It was very close to getting a couple of manufacturer seats.

Very, very close.

Wrong time, wrong place, I would say.

Sure.

Forced India, very much a mid-pack team.

Your results, a couple of fourth places.

I mean, you were...

I had some very strong ones,

and I was hours away from signing deals

that I can't speak about.

Hours from signing one away.

And I had been through the emotions of being there,

seeing the boss, secretly in the factory,

and I...

Right.

The whole thing.

Like the whole...

What city?

I don't think it would be too difficult to work out.

And, yes, it just didn't happen.

And that's the part of it that hurts,

because had that done it would have been life-changing.

Right, right.

For instance, you look at Sebastian,

went straight into Red Bull and your success,

and then you're easy, you're settled,

you know, life's done.

But at the same time, I know many people

didn't even get the chance,

they should have got the chance.

Yeah, right.

You know, I look back at some of my friends,

Jamie Green.

We always ask, like, who's the person that didn't make...

Obviously, Jamie Green had a tremendous DTM career,

but like, who's the person that should have made it that didn't?

Yeah, but look what Jamie did to Lewis in Formula Three

the year before Lewis won it.

I'm just using him as an example.

Yeah, right, yeah.

You know, and...

But there's endless amount of people that don't get the chance.

So I got the chance,

but timing is a key thing in this sport.

Sure.

Timing and decisions,

made some wrong decisions.

Seeing the benefit in people,

shouldn't have trusted them again.

On the management side.

Because of business point of view.

Yes, on management side, the teams, yeah, exactly.

Who I saw at the track the other day,

I don't hold it against them,

but, you know, it could have been very different.

Sure.

You know, are you, at all,

religious or into sort of like spiritual,

like what happens for reasons or anything like that?

I wouldn't say I was bitter against it,

but at the end of my F1 career,

well, I'll talk about it,

I was still reasonably young.

Yeah, when that stopped,

me and my wife, we'd been together at that point

nearly 10 years.

We got engaged.

Like we're straight away got engaged.

So you didn't tell it was over?

You didn't tell your,

you didn't get engaged until the F1 stuff sold out?

Didn't know, so we were just literally just going with it.

I mean, we'd never even discussed it.

We knew it was going to happen,

but it was just, there was no time for it.

The two of us were just like,

fully driven into it and probably two into it,

when you're looking at hindsight,

we probably should have been a bit,

like a bit more like,

oh, we'll travel here, do this, do that.

But you are here to be an F1 driver.

We're too ingrained in it.

Got engaged, got married, had a first kid,

and it was two or three days after Leo was born,

when he was lying in the cot.

And I thought, there's a bigger thing in life here

than anything I've ever done.

And then the more that grew in me in the year,

actually seeing him smile in the morning

and seeing the reaction you get out

of somebody that you've created,

I'm sorry, but as much as racing is important to me,

it's nothing.

It is literally nothing.

It's nothing on what they've brought me,

you know, a joy.

So, I mean, that obviously,

that novelty is different,

but the love just keeps growing

and they become little human,

you know, like before I came here is we were FaceTime

and then talking about bits and pieces we're doing

and you're having that more in-depth conversation,

but it reset my mind very quickly

to what life is about, actually.

Right, right.

Recreating.

Yeah, your F1 career, you know,

effectively comes to a close.

2017 comes, hungry, and Fleet Bay Massa is unwell,

is whatever you keep saying.

And you get thrown in, no practice,

straight into qualifying,

not only haven't driven an F1 car in a few years,

but like the format of F1 has changed,

like the turbo here and all that,

this is something you hadn't driven before.

And it, to me, it went really, really well.

It did go well.

I obviously, I'd had my kids, I was traveling a lot.

I became the reserve driver for Williams.

When you become the reserve driver,

you're like, what are those chances?

To be honest, all you're really doing

is taking the money at that point.

Yeah, yeah.

What pays better, reserve driver or DTM?

A DTM was paying a lot better than that.

Oh, okay, copy.

A lot better.

Interesting, yeah.

Yeah, not even.

And I think the days of the big earners

and reserve driver roles was probably

when the tire test was going on and stuff went in it.

Yeah, that's right, sure.

The 2008 crash reset it, like,

I think you'd be shocked.

It's come back a bit now,

obviously, where Formula 1's went,

but I obviously picked that job up in 2000,

like two days before the Australian Grand Prix in 2016.

Out of nowhere, I was doing half the races with Sky,

half them just with Williams.

So I was going in the meetings, of course I was.

I was paying attention.

I think I'd done two half days in the simulator

to get my head around the steering wheel.

But I was listening to everything that was going on.

So I was kind of aware, but at the same time,

you know, you were kind of...

It's still not the same as driving.

You know, you were in your listening.

An hour and a half thinking,

what am I doing here?

Yeah, yeah.

Stop talking.

Everybody's going back and forth.

And then, you know,

it gets real, doesn't it?

And you think you're never prepared for it.

But he did it happen, you know,

actually it happened and I was throwing in and

it was, you know, of course I was anxious

and I was unprepared for it.

Of course, completely unprepared for it.

There's no such thing as being prepared.

Probably, in hindsight,

probably the best thing,

given it happened that way so quickly,

in a sense, if not overthinking it.

Because you, just to set the stage real quick,

he gets sick, still practices,

but then, finally, they throw you in just for qualifying.

So I think what I had, I wasn't actually...

No, I was going to Hungary

and then Martin Brundle ended up sick.

So Sky phoned me up and said,

we need you to come and do the main commentary.

And I was like, fine, I'm there with William Lenowell.

Extend my trip a day

because normally, if you're a reserve driver,

you leave Saturday night.

You get out of there at home.

They care about you.

My daughter was only...

Yeah, my daughter was only a month old.

Oh yeah, sure.

We were flying to Scotland on the Sunday night, actually.

So it was the first trip we were doing with her.

So it was like, literally, just get to Hungary.

Do what you got to do.

Piss off home and it summer starts

because it's literally like it was at that point

like everything had been happening

and got there.

And obviously, Massa took unbeknown to me

when I was in the commentary.

He stopped FP2 and I'm like, oh, he's a bit dizzy.

You need to be ready.

So we're not sure he's going to be okay,

but let's do the jump out test with the FIE.

You're all clear.

We'll decide it next morning.

So of course, went to bed thinking,

well, it might happen.

Got to the track in the morning,

like, no, he's absolutely fine.

Stand down.

Yeah.

Okay, back up.

I was ironing my shirt.

Start eating again.

Ironing my shirt ready.

I was like, I wasn't doing commentary in the practice

because I was doing the main commentary in qualifying.

They give you a bit of a breather

to let you give you an idea.

And I was ironing my shirt and I got a phone call

and say, you better come down to the office.

You're in for qualifying.

And this is how far like an hour?

It was two hours and 10 minutes.

Yeah, two and a half.

You're ready.

You're good.

I was like down there trying to eat my way through some pasta.

And I remember Claire saying to me,

there's no pressure.

I just, I trust you.

And I'm like, I don't really trust myself at this point,

to be perfectly honest.

Yeah, that's a lot of pressure.

There's quite a lot of people watching.

At that point, they were on that downward spiral.

They were successful and on the downward spiral.

For Williams.

They'd had that kind of research in the turbo hybrid,

but they were dying down the order.

Yeah, I went out.

And to be honest, it was hard to be prepared,

but as soon as I pulled out the garage,

I was back in the office and it just felt fine.

I honestly felt normal.

Like what the pit limiter and the way I went.

And I obviously, the last thing I wanted to do

was go out and be an arson crash.

So I had to build my way into it,

but I don't think you could have asked

any more about myself and that.

You know, I remember Nicky and Toto phone me like,

cause I was still a Mercedes driver at that point.

And I remember Nicky and Toto phone me like an hour and a half

after like, where the f*** did that come from?

You know, like, you know, and then I went for dinner.

Cause I was booked in to go up to sky for dinner.

I went out with the guys from sky and walking back

and I bumped into Helmut and Christian

and they were, even they stopped me and they,

I knew them from my time, but they actually stopped

and they're like.

That was awesome.

Yeah.

And at that point I thought, well, I've done.

Must have done something.

You know, right.

And I'm like, why couldn't that happen

like three years ago?

Yeah.

That would have been a.

A big step.

Yeah.

On that.

And that shows you the right time at the right place.

Yeah.

If things.

And almost, you almost need that picture

of extraordinary circumstances for people to see you.

And I didn't see it any different,

but it just shows you the attention it gets.

Yeah.

Exactly right.

Yeah.

Nothing.

You know, I think this is a bit like what happened

with Liam Lawson last year when Ricardo brought us around.

Yeah.

When he jumped in and did a great job.

Yeah.

So on that level then, I mean,

the online reports around that time

start putting you in the frame

for maybe a William Seaton next year,

et cetera, et cetera.

And we don't need to get any details you don't want,

but to me it's that tease factor that seems painful.

Like you'd been out, you got a taste.

Well, they put me back on the map.

Right.

For some people, but Paddy Lowe was obsessed

with Kubitsa at the time.

Okay.

Absolutely obsessed with Kubitsa.

It was kind of on his recovery process.

And I would say had Paddy not come into the team

at that point, and I'll be honest,

I've got nothing against him,

I think it might have happened.

It was unfortunate, you know,

and I got on work with Paddy.

I had lunch with him quite a lot of times and dinner.

But I just got a sense, and I remember sitting in the office

when I was in Singapore talking about going,

you know, like, I want the opportunity and all the rest.

And he's like, ah, well, this.

And we went and did a shootout, actually,

me and Robert in Hungary, which nobody knew about.

And I know where it went.

Cap, your face does too.

Very, very clear where it went.

And I know the report didn't say what it should have done.

But that's the business.

That's what it's like.

We do a pass on question.

It's kind of about a story go from you.

But basically it kind of goes right in line

with what we were talking about

with like the birth of your son.

We did a dinner with Ricardo Yonkos,

the IndyCar team owner last October, September.

But his question was, where does racing fit

in the general scope of life for you?

I'd say it's number two.

After my wife and kids, it's number two.

What about in six years?

Exactly six years.

I hope it's still that.

Yeah, yeah.

I genuinely do still hope it's that.

I can't see myself ever not being involved in it.

I can't see myself.

That's got to be the future.

I've invested so much into it.

I've been through too many experiences.

I'm actively starting to help young kids

like mentor them, mentor the families,

advise the families.

Okay, so what I'm hearing is more of the,

kind of like what Ollie Gavin's doing now,

more of the kind of helping people along

advisory kind of management stuff,

more so than say Richard.

I always say this to be, it's not management.

If they're not earning like a million bucks

or two million bucks,

that's management when you're managing that.

Copy.

Nothing management about it before that, is it?

It's advise.

It's been already.

You know, being a mentor.

Consultant.

But does that, so advising a young driver

interested you more than say running a team

or management or?

For the right thing, yes.

But I think when you've been involved in Formula One,

your level of, and it comes back to like being here,

if you're going to run a team,

you want to be running something proper,

you know, because I've been at the level of.

You don't want to get out of the back of the car.

I don't want to run LMP2 teams.

Yeah, that's what he said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's exactly what I heard.

I feel like I'm in it.

He's nodding.

Yeah.

I'm not saying I wouldn't.

I don't want to walk through a door

that I have to open myself.

He's like, they telling it?

Yeah, that's right.

But, you know, I want to be,

I think it's fair that you, you know,

where it is, but I've also been very clear to people,

you know, I'm a very hands-on person,

I'm not the type of person,

I'll text and say, can I have this?

I'll pick the phone up and say, can I have this?

You know, like have a relationship with people,

have some communication.

People can hide behind words.

I'm not that type of person.

I don't want to sit and,

you know, and I'm always one like,

if somebody writes you an, like a s*** email,

it looks much worse when you read it

than when you actually see the body language.

That's why we do this.

Get the people's feeling behind it, you know what I mean?

We don't do remote.

Yeah, we won't do remote.

You can't.

I think you've got to extract that

because it might not come across that way,

but you can read it completely wrong

and then you get the red mist

and then you start keyboard bashing

and then, you know, keyboard warriors,

I always say it.

So are you, because you're,

like your Instagram presence is kind of very normal,

yeah, low and I don't want to say healthy.

It's healthy, yeah, yeah.

Are you much for going online and seeing stuff?

Do you know something?

We all look at it, don't we?

But I don't feel like I need to tell people

what I'm having for my lunch.

Yeah, sure, sure.

How I've slept last night

and I've ran ten key like a champion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's literally what I did yesterday.

What did you weigh when you raced in Formula One?

I was, with kits, 78 kilos.

78 kilos.

Let's put this in a,

let's use a proper unit of measurement, like in America.

But that was overweight, you know,

there wasn't a minimum driver weight,

I'll tell you.

180, 186, so I'm six foot one.

Yeah.

Okay, so you and I are the same height.

That's a tall deal for F1.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

On the limit, yeah.

How many kilos, 78?

Yeah.

With kit.

Yeah, with kit.

Wow.

172 with kit.

Jesus Christ.

So what were you like 165 by yourself?

I wouldn't have dinner

on a Friday night before Kuali.

Before racing in F1 car, you're not eating.

Kuali, before Kuali.

And then, right, we'd pack the food in

before the race.

Because you had to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

But I literally,

I'd literally get to the Formula One weekend,

the lightest, my lightest weigh-in

was normally Friday morning.

I'd gradually start to keep,

because I had to eat,

because you were getting in the car.

Gradually creep up,

maybe like 0.2, 0.3 of a kilo.

And this Saturday night, I'd gain a kilo.

I'd literally, you'd have to pack in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You'd have the strength to, yeah, you'd have to have it.

So it wasn't like, normally most people

come into the weekend and lose weight.

I was going the other way,

because I was starving myself before.

You're like a foot taller, right?

I had to drive myself in the ground

coming into the weekend.

And then the nutrition, I think.

Now, is there ever a conversation where they're like,

hey, we need you to be this window?

Or is it just a known thing?

I remember it was the first year in Monaco.

It was when all the blown diffusers

were going on on all the exhausts.

And I beat Adrian Sutil.

I think it was by 12,000s or something.

I ended up beating teammate and qualifying.

And his engineer in the meeting came on.

You know, he was going through it all and he went,

you know, Adrian with a beat Paul,

he's 1.8 kilos heavier than the car was 1.8 kilos overweight.

And Adrian was a bit heavier and I remember I piped up

and I got aggressive and I went,

did he have a f***ing dinner last night?

Yeah, right.

And he went, yeah, I went, well, I didn't.

So it wasn't 1.8 kilos.

So, okay, he did a better job,

but I still beat him because I didn't have dinner.

Yeah, right.

So if you want to get back to it and I got,

you know, and I remember getting a bit of an action about it.

That's a six up for yourself.

Okay.

I didn't feel it was fair what he was saying.

Sure, no, but also I find it amazing

that an F1 engineer for a team like that is like,

yeah, just so you know, we would have beat you.

Like still petty and s*** about it,

like it's a go-kart race.

But that's a competitive bit, of course.

You know, as much as they talk to each other,

you're out there to kill each other.

Yeah, I just find it, I just wouldn't say anything.

So it was hard.

It was bloody hard.

And I remember they were trying

to bring a minimum driver waiting

and everybody was for it apart from Massa.

And he's like, no, I've got an advantage

and I'm being selfish.

And every other one that was under way,

we're like, let's just try and make this fair.

Like it is now, you know, like,

he's still getting the advantage

because it's on the floor and I'm like, you little...

It's a s***.

Weird, the Brazilian?

Yeah.

Selfish, that was narrow-minded.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm all for it, you know,

just beat people with the same stuff.

Yeah, right.

I don't need anything different.

Right.

Just like, yeah.

So what do you weigh now?

I'm probably no, we're KIT 81.

Okay.

But I've got obviously a bit less muscle now.

Sports cars are easy.

They're so easy.

Yeah.

American food.

Yeah.

How do you come in the weekend?

Do you come in just normal?

What do you just show?

I would say I stay the same now.

All the time.

As you get older,

you gain a bit of weight.

For sure, yeah, absolutely.

It's nothing you can really do.

That's my excuse.

But like when you barely pecked at your lunch today

and it was, you're like,

you barely ate any of the corn

or any of the other stuff.

Like it was pretty much just approaching.

Yeah.

No, are you thinking,

but you're in reality.

Basically the company.

Yeah.

You've got to be a bit careful.

You know, you gotta watch what you're doing.

And you know, there's a minimum driver weight

coming into WEC this year.

Okay.

But again, it stitches me up

because my team makes 10 kilos lighter.

The average driver weight is 82.

So I just get the lump up of what he's got

and he still gets the advantage he's got from me.

And I actually just get it piled onto me.

You're right.

So you're doubly screwed.

You know, you're kind of screwed.

They need to kind of try and balance it up in a fair way.

It's something that the human body can't sustain.

D&H.

Run an extra bit, a few loads.

Yeah, it's not gonna matter.

Also the cars are massive now.

You know what I mean?

It's like when they compare them to like 10 years ago.

That should be part of the question

on the driver ratings, his body type.

Exactly.

Yeah, slender.

So you do the Peugeot LMDH, is that what it's called?

It's World Endurance.

Yeah, it's Hypercar.

Hypercar, sorry.

The Peugeot Hypercar.

Racing thing is LMDH.

Isn't it sad that I work in the sport

and I'm like, what do they call it now?

But effectively if you're an IMSA fan,

the GTP class of Europe.

This is it.

When that car first shows up,

it doesn't have a rear wing on it.

Yes.

And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking,

okay, every other car showed up with a wing

and now what does that car have in the back of it?

It's got a wing.

It's got a wing, okay.

As a driver, are you like,

or are you just like, hey, they're really good at this.

I've done a lot of great things.

I was a bit surprised.

Okay.

Thank you.

As to be honest, when they did the presentation,

they were like, we were surprised as well.

Okay.

But.

Interesting.

Like they took the cover off.

Yeah.

But they basically sold it to us.

The first attempt, they're like,

when they had the wing on it was too much downforce

for the regulation because you're BOP'd

and they're like, it had too much load.

So they're like, actually,

let's try and make a more ground effect car.

The issue is when the BOP at the wind tunnel you use

has certain restrictions and it seems that

it doesn't quite measure the same

what you think it does to a real world.

Yeah.

So you actually, what you've got to do is develop a car

that's good in the wind tunnel

that you're developing the car in.

Yeah.

And that's, in a sense, that's where the concept's come.

So now it's got a wing on it.

You guys are coming back this year.

You're moving to the 93 car.

Yeah.

Why are you guys swapping driver lineups?

They moved as I was in the 93 for two years.

Then they moved me last year, coming back.

It's a restriction they've got.

They've got two family drivers,

two French drivers and two Danish drivers.

Trying to work that combo.

Two FE drivers.

There's no secret.

They miss Brazil.

So they can't be in the same car.

Sure.

They're not going to put two Danes together

and they're not going to put two French together.

If I'm standing here looking,

they don't have to justify it to me,

but if I'm standing here looking at constraints

they've got.

Yeah, I see that, yeah.

And then they try and balance the age

with Malta coming in who's young.

You know, it's his kind of first professional job.

And they pair them up

and then I was in the 93 before

with Jeff and me killing.

Yeah.

It works.

I think with the whole thing of an eco-moving

it's just like a bit of juggling.

Sure, sure.

Trying to get the best kind of compromise across the board.

So this is probably one of the greatest areas

in sports car racing history

in terms of factory involvement for the top class.

What's it like as a driver showing up,

knowing that it's like six teams

that can win every weekend with multiple cars?

Is it six teams that can win though?

I mean, how do you tell me?

Have you witnessed that?

What?

I'm an IMSA.

We just turned knobs a lot.

So I don't know.

You tell me.

I'm not a fan of BOP racing.

What?

So you don't like driver ratings or BOP?

Well, you just lost the audience.

Yeah.

But I like the look.

I like the look.

Neither do we.

It's just like, you know, it's like, I will turn you up.

We'll **** around this and that.

And you know, actually put that gurney on

because you've got not enough drag in the wind tunnel.

Yeah, yeah.

Artificial in a sense.

Yes, yes.

The thing I'm very scared about,

this is the pinnacle of sports car racing.

Yeah, yeah.

We are in it.

Yep.

But if they're not making everybody happy,

once one pops, they're all going to pop.

That's right.

And I fear it could be driven very quickly.

That's my fear for the sport.

That's honestly my fear for the sport.

But then at some point, how do you?

That's not a fear.

That's just the circle of life with sports car.

It's going to happen that way.

Yes, it is.

But we are in such an era at the moment.

But you cannot keep having the same people winning

if they say BOP.

Right.

It's supposed to equalize it.

OK, so then to redo my question,

what's it like driving in this current era of hypercar

where the talent level is the highest ever been,

the funding coming from the manufacturers

is probably the highest it's ever been?

It's the best it's been.

I think you have to look around at the crowd.

You have to look around the merchandise.

It's going around the paddock.

You just have to look at the support and the emphasis

on sponsorship, activation worldwide.

It's just a great thing.

It's a great thing to be a part of.

Very lucky to be part of it.

You bring something up that I actually

don't think we've heard actually.

Kind of go back to kind of rephrase what you just said.

BOP racing isn't fun for anybody, right?

But that's not the argument you're making.

That's not fun.

But if it's not going to be fun, it better be effective.

And what you're saying is it's not effective

if it's only the same couple of cars winning everything

on the top.

And they're all very clever at playing games, aren't they?

Well, not in GTD, of course.

I mean, the GTD teams that I work with never manipulate

lap time, sir.

So I don't know what you're talking about.

It's illegal.

They have penalties, sir.

It's illegal.

And so you're not allowed to, so we don't, sir.

But I don't know how it works in whatever WEC is.

I'm sure Pujo doesn't play these games at all.

But we certainly don't in GTD.

Again, to be clear.

So this won't come out until probably around Thanksgiving

or Christmas.

We only do these specific ones because you're from overseas,

so we can get you while you're here.

But then we do a lot of them throughout the year

on road trips specifically.

But question for you is, how did it go this year in WEC?

I think the biggest thing is very hard to say

where you're going to be.

It depends the winter you've had.

It depends on the, what do you call it, the jokers

that people have got, where it all falls into line,

where I guess the BOPs worked in favor of other people

last year, where they're going to be pinned back this year.

Sure.

And I think that's the thing about it.

You don't actually know where you're going to be.

You don't actually know at what point you're going to be fired.

Because your testing data is pointless because you

could be throttled down.

You've got no idea.

That's the reality of it.

You've got no idea.

And their process changes can change as well.

And it's up to them.

It's up to the FIE to get it right, isn't it?

It's in their hands to try and cut through the bill.

Well, they blame him, sir.

They blame the FIE.

Yeah, but they've got to cut through it,

and they've got to get it right.

You can look at any kind of BOP you're racing,

unless you've got a whole load of stuff

sitting in the background, which shouldn't be the case.

So then this weekend, you're

racing in the Rolex 24-hour for United Arab Sport and LMP

2, where there is no BOP.

So is that actually really enjoyable,

because you don't have to think about it?

We're sitting here Monday, the week before the 24-hours

Daytona.

This will definitely come out after that.

How did you do?

We can also have you say four different things and edit it.

You can see what you need.

I've done this before, and I don't like it.

Oh, you don't want to call your shot.

I'll tell you why, because it came up at the end,

when the Williams deal was coming up.

I was doing the sky recap at the end of the year,

and they said, oh, you've got to see.

They've got to do both sides.

That's a very different stake.

Yeah.

It's a little bit from a podcast about it,

about the P2 sports of road racing.

For your F1 career.

It'd be nice to be telling the time on a different watch

at 2 o'clock on Sunday afternoons, all I'm saying.

Yeah, I hear them.

Wait, but now to hold on.

I'm not going to tempt fate.

I appreciate that, actually.

But when you were working with Sky,

they made you sort of declare yourself as a Williams driver

and then undeclare yourself as a?

Yeah, because it was a bit of a weird one,

because you're obviously part of the commentary team,

and then you're doing the recap,

and then you're talking about that race,

and then it's like, where's it going,

and I had to do both?

And it didn't work out, so that's why I'm going to say

I'm not doing it.

Because we're basically the same thing.

We are the same thing, the same stage.

But on the Sky stuff, it's clear here,

beyond your family, racing is what you live, eat, and breathe.

And I really liked you on the Sky stuff.

I thought you were excellent.

I really did.

Where did this start showing up?

Because it makes sense you being a media guy,

because you're very well-spoken.

So the biggest thing, I wanted to be around the paddock.

I wanted to be in people's faces,

and I wanted to be around, and I remember walking down

the paddock in Monaco, I was obviously at home,

I'd been out a year and a half,

and I bumped into Crofty and Simon,

who I'd kind of known through the time.

And I think Crofty's the year I started with TV,

what are you doing next week?

We were a man down in Canada,

and I was like, yeah, I'd be up for that, why not?

You know, I can kind of see the media value in it.

Next thing I was, I was in Canada at the Grand Prix.

There's an army of young journalists doing stuff,

and then they just kick-started from there.

I think I did five races as an analyst to begin with,

and then got into kind of where it was.

Yeah.

I'm not going to tell you why it stopped,

because I don't think that's fair.

To who?

Is it fair to them or fair to?

Well, I just don't think it's fair to say it.

Oh, all right.

You know, I'm very open about it,

but it came to an end in not a very nice way.

For you or for...?

It wasn't done the right way from a management point of view.

I see.

I fear the words that would come out would go down wrong.

Yeah, no, I understand that.

I feel like I understand that.

It would be worse if you emailed it.

Yeah.

No, but in this world, it was...

I felt, for everything you'd gone through,

I felt it was a bit of a stab in the heart,

very late into the next year, yeah.

So, and I'm very sincere when I say,

I really enjoyed what you did to this guy.

I enjoyed it too.

Here's my, this is, I don't know how to phrase this right,

F1 being the most popular form of motorsport,

therefore has the biggest fan base.

You then add, like a drive to survive kind of thing

that only increases the fan base,

but also increases the fan base

that is unaware of how things work.

New fans.

New fans, which we're all thankful to have new fans,

but they don't necessarily understand what they're going.

And there is somebody like yourself

who has been a successful and very good F1 driver,

knows what he's looking at.

You're going to have opinions that are yours

because you know what you're looking at.

And an opinion that you believe is correct

may not necessarily be the popular one.

And if you read some of the criticisms online,

I feel like that's a lot of what you got.

Was that people were like,

oh, he's too much in favor of this team.

And that guy's like, well no,

he's in favor of the best team and the best driver.

What are you talking about?

Well, he's using his professional knowledge

to state his opinions.

Yeah, exactly.

That's why you're there, isn't it?

Yeah, great, exactly right.

That's not the way you're there.

Do you feel you got a lot of feel

or a rep on the criticism part

because you gave opinions that were

literally merited by your career?

Yeah, I do.

And I think a lot of that stems down to,

at times when everybody in sky was like behind Lewis

and you know, you got to look at the whole thing out there.

You got to look at everything else that's coming through.

Yeah, well to your exact point,

the criticism is that you're very favorable towards

say Red Bull or Stoppin' or anything like that,

which very strong performing team.

Yeah, weird.

That'd be really good.

But again.

But I always complimented Lewis

when he was there and I did the interviews with him.

I've known him a long time.

He's an absolute credit to F1,

what he's done for the sport.

I was never against him.

Toto, I mean, Toto's son and my daughter

in the same class at school,

we see each other all the time.

And I'm still going there.

I'm still traveling with Toto to the races.

Like going on his plane.

But I think that's where fans can sometimes get a line.

You saying good things about for Stoppin' or Red Bull

is not saying bad things about Lewis.

100% not.

And I feel like at a lot of times

this is what you were getting

and that's not fair to you.

No, you just want to be honest.

You know, I want you to come across

as like nothing else stood in the way.

I was very much given my opinion on what I thought.

You didn't have an agenda.

There was nothing against anybody, you know, within it.

Which is an analyst is your job.

Yes.

And all you're trying to do is put everything

that you've kind of digested over the time

and the best possible way

and some people get sensitive about it.

Yeah, right.

And do you think the sensitivity

stopped with fans or was there sensitivity beyond fans?

No, I think it was just fans.

So I feel like people in the paddock

would probably know how things work

or probably less critical.

Everybody's like that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's reddit, but it's not the paddock.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember once, and it was, it was Lewis.

It was a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago

he was having a, in fact,

it was a year he was fighting for Stappen

and he had a shocker of a Friday.

And somehow, some date Mercedes

had released that him and Bota had swapped chassis

which was quite a common thing.

But somehow, Crofty had brought it up

and the commentary, we're just chatting about it.

You know, just as the session was going on,

he's just making conversation.

How would you feel about it?

And I said, well, does that, yeah,

you get bad chassis, and yeah,

but if you actually look at it, it looks like

I'd be seriously questioning that chassis

going into tomorrow,

given his performance versus Bota, that's where he is.

Nothing like, it was just like a general thing

that every racing driver, I guess, has been through.

It's not been right.

There's nothing you said sounded often.

Do you know what I mean?

It was just like, it'd go in there.

And I did the top three interview at the end of it.

And I remember Lewis, you know,

Lewis is a bit bitter against me

because some stuff that went on with Dad

at the end of my career, which wasn't nice.

You know, he ended up taking me to court.

Your dad, his dad was your manager for a minute?

He was, yeah.

Yeah, just to set that for the fans that might not know.

And it ended, so we're laying in court

for the wrong reasons.

And I remember him, the first thing he said to me,

ah, you know, I'm ben known.

I can't remember how he phrased it,

he was a bit like, ah, you said my chassis was shit yesterday

and I qualified P2.

And me as the interviewer, I remember at the time,

I could have went, yeah, but if you had the other chassis,

would you have been on pole?

And I didn't.

But that's the thing that people always fail to realize

that the interviewer can always make somebody

look terrible on the other side.

And that's not your job.

Oh, we understand.

It's the leading question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can hit on that and I didn't.

And I could have done in front of everybody just to,

you know, going, hold on, just to say,

would you have beat him in the other car then?

Yeah, right.

Because you're still second here, you're not first.

Yeah.

You know, I saw above it.

Yeah, you had professional integrity.

And I thought I did the right thing.

You could have made it about what you wanted to talk about

and you're like, let's just keep going

with what we're supposed to do here.

It was not against that.

And I was, you know, I remember it coming up

and I said, I wasn't, I was making conversation

and I was being, if I was a driver in that position,

that was what Sky asked me to give.

Yeah, right.

So it wasn't against him.

Yeah.

But you can obviously see he was,

he's very aware of what was going on around the bottom

and he was reading that and I was like,

why is it, why would he even look at that?

Like when you're in the car,

why would you even think about listening to commentators

or talking about an FP2 session

that's just burning up the environment?

Well, in that same regard,

are you listening to online criticism at this point

where you're doing the broadcasting stuff?

But it's in PCs.

Yeah.

But I think one thing the stuff that Sky's taught me is

if somebody's got an agenda, they've got an agenda

and they'll go into it.

Like I remember like sitting in production meetings

and they're like, oh, we're gonna go there

and I'm like, you're gonna upset somebody by doing that.

Just, you know, stand clear of that.

That's just, that's the kind of stuff

why you get a bad reputation.

Yeah, right.

You know, and I remember people saying to your journalist,

I'm like, I'm not a journalist.

I'm definitely not qualified for that.

Yeah.

We say the same thing.

I'm here to give people, you know,

and I will always work on the relationship.

If somebody doesn't want to talk about it, I'll stop.

I will not try and trick them into it,

anything, there's nothing in this.

And I hope that they'll see by speaking to me

and what they did do when I ever talked to anybody

in F1, they gave me it because they liked me

and anything they gave me,

that was the key to it.

And I said, I'll always work on the relationship.

If they don't want to talk about it,

we're not going in there to try and get something

that they were gonna be unhappy with.

Sure, yeah.

That's not the agenda.

Well, you're not hired because of your journalism degree.

Right.

You're hired.

Yeah, you're hired because you did years in F1

and you know what you're looking at.

And you're trying to get, you know,

you're trying to see if they can touch out

because they understand that you're in it with them

and you're trying to make the best out of it, yeah.

And that was always the way it was.

And I felt, you know, and I could see, you know,

that was obviously something that pulled the cords.

Yeah.

It wasn't the right thing,

but maybe I should have just shot up

and played the game a bit more,

but I felt like, you know, for the people that liked me,

and I have to say everybody in the U.S.,

when I'm ever here doing autograph session,

nobody wants to talk about what I'm doing on track here.

All they want to talk about is,

oh, I miss you in the sky.

Yeah, that's cool.

Every single person.

Every person talks about it.

They're like, I wish you were still there

and all the rest of the rest of the year.

No one cares about P2.

Yeah.

Yeah, in fairness, it's because we fall for an accident.

Like you could say the dumbest shit,

we're not gonna know.

Yeah.

It's nice, though.

It's nice to see that that's there.

No, I'm not sure.

It's great to see that it's there,

and I'm happy about that.

But, you know, I just tried to say true

to myself more than anything,

and there was genuinely nothing out there.

I mean, at the same time,

for that one incident,

I was using that as an example.

How many times did I say you did a great lap?

Yeah, exactly.

That was a championship.

I remember that.

I remember in Singapore in 2018,

I remember standing there in the commentary,

I went, that's a championship winning lap.

Louis Dunne and Crofty went,

do you think that?

And I went, yeah, it's a championship winning lap.

That lap that he did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But no one will remember that.

What more could you applaud for that?

Yeah, yeah.

So we have a dinner tonight with Alex Sims.

I don't know, do you know him at all?

A long time back.

We've been racing each other since we were like nine.

Oh!

Okay, okay, so that's good to know.

If you could ever ask a question of Alex Sims

through us, what would that be?

Do you think we'll ever race together again?

Do you have a favorite VJ Mollia story?

That you can see?

You can say anything we can edit later.

Yeah, I remember he was at the Monaco Yacht Show

and VJ was very on or off.

And he takes me and says, do you want to come and have dinner?

When you say on or off, how do you mean?

He was a busy guy.

Oh, okay, I'm sure, sure.

Just for context, VJ Mollia was the owner of Force India.

At the time, yeah.

He was a billionaire at the time.

So he was kind of like, when he was there, he was great.

Yeah, yeah.

And I have to say, nothing, nothing.

And listen, I still see VJ, you know,

he still cuddles me and he was, you know, a great guy,

you know, a great boss on the wrist, but I remember he said,

come and have dinner at the Yacht Show.

We've got the yacht parked up, we're in town.

Now, dinner with him was like two in the morning.

So I was like, right, okay.

He was like, I'll come and pick him up at the port.

I'm on the day at the Yacht Show,

jump on the tender and let's go over to the big boat.

So me and my wife went down and I remember,

we got on the tender and we trundled around the harbor

and stopped at this rib, this brand new rib,

state of the art and all the rest.

And I remember there was only one of these

and I remember the guy said, VJ said I'm buying it.

I want it.

I'll wire you the money tomorrow.

And I'm at that time, he's like, I want the money tomorrow.

And I'm like, I haven't been paid for a year.

Like I'm still waiting on my money.

And I'm like, you know what I mean?

You're like, I'm sitting there going, what is happening?

You know, I mean like, it all worked out.

I remember sitting there going to the time like,

it's that easy to buy a tender at 450 grand,

but you can't like...

Yeah, yeah, you can't take care of it.

You're billing.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, you're just shocked in life.

Yeah, yeah.

For sure.

I wish I'm all the health.

If someone were to listen to this six years from now,

clearly you're retired

because you'll be old as shit at that point.

Or still racing probably really well somewhere.

For sure.

Yeah.

What would you hope they take away as your legacy?

Keep following the dream.

There are other dreams out there.

There's bigger things in life.

But if you get on it,

enjoy it because it doesn't last as long as you think it lasts.

You're a media guy, kind of.

Where does it stack up?

It's different.

I like the relaxed part of it.

I like the...

The host not so much, but to nature it's good to do it.

No, no, no, but I'm interested in how you're going to piece it together.

You can clearly see it's a conversation

to people that don't know each other.

And I think that's the thing, you know, you could make it more polished,

fill it full of, you know, bulls*** if you want.

Right.

But that's not what this is about.

It's about sitting here and feeling the stalls

and just trying to be open.

And I haven't, you know, nothing I've talked about,

nothing you've thrown at me has been anything but the truth.

And I think that's what you want to get across to people, isn't it?

What was the thing you were hoping we wouldn't ask about?

The F1 team I mentioned that I nearly signed for.

Oh, oh, so if we looked into it hard enough...

I definitely... I can't even...

No, no, no, but if we looked into it hard enough, yeah, this is...

No, I don't think you would.

That's the thing about it.

It was very well managed in that sense.

Yeah, that's pretty cool, actually.

And it harshed me not to be able to talk about it.

That's the biggest thing.

Yeah, because it'd be pretty cool, right?

Yeah, yeah, it's an honor.

My last question for you, is there a driver from the,

like, F1 era before you that you've gotten to spend time with

because of Sky Sports or whatever, that you think is, like,

just the coolest guy ever?

Spent a lot of time with David.

Yeah, yeah.

Cool tart.

I mean, David used to do in the TV,

things we used to travel together, actively build our...

Travel together.

That's cool, yeah.

I have no anality in this all my life.

But, yeah, a lot of guys.

I think they were all respectful to each other.

Yeah, that era right before,

like, a lot of those guys are doing media stuff now

or whatever, and that was like when I was probably,

like, full-blown F1 fan as a kid.

You're either in it or out it, that's the thing about it.

And a lot of people have went out of it and done other things.

Yeah.

Damon Hill, good guy.

Yeah, got him while we're Damon.

That's all I needed here.

Got him with Damon the whole time.

Yeah, yeah.

If Johnny Herbert sucks, though, right?

Wait, does he?

Johnny is mad.

Honestly, he's absolutely...

I was just f***ing around.

He is, like, honestly, there's only one Johnny at a time.

Yeah, he's just a character.

Yeah.

Howie, I don't know how he's got through this point

to live, to be honest.

But he's here.

Yeah, but he's doing it.

All right, that's awesome.

Well, I'd say on that note, Cotton Liddle's got the check.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

I'm finished.

I'm glad that I found you.

Oh, I'm glad that I found you.

I'll call you on the boulevard to tell you love, that I'm not too far from home where I can hold you in my arms and play you songs on my old guitar.

Oh, I'm glad that I found you.

I'm glad that I found you.

Oh, I'm glad that I found you.

Oh, I'm glad that I found you

Ep.301 – Paul di Resta

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