EV Startups Struggle, Acura ADX Review, Shrinking Big Cities and the Future of Mobility

Whether you drive a car, need a car, or just occasionally bummer ride with friends, you've

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Join Jill and Tom as they break down everything that's going on in the auto world.

New car reviews, shopping tips, driving green, electric cars, classic cars, and plenty of

great guests.

This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff podcast.

All right, this is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff podcast, and I am Tom Appel.

Thank you for joining us today.

When you have a moment, check us out at ConsumerGuide.com.

All sorts of good stuff there, especially if you are looking for a new car or truck.

In studio with me live in person is Jill Simonillo, managing editor, and I'm sorry, contributing

editor at ConsumerGuide.com, North American Car of the Year juror, old habits diet.

I know, I know.

And obstinate freelancer.

Obstinate.

How are you?

Obstinate.

That is very descriptive.

How are you today?

I'm doing well, thank you.

I want to hear a funny, not car-related story.

Sure.

Steve and Johnny, I do their show every other week, let me pick the bumper music while I'm

on their show.

I'm sorry?

It's, for me, it's the biggest thrill of a lifetime.

But not for anybody else.

So when I checked, when I checked the weather early last week, it was supposed to rain

all week.

Okay.

So I picked songs about rain.

That was my theme.

Okay.

Good music.

And then it didn't rain?

However, it didn't rain all week.

But then Saturday, all hell broke loose.

You brought the rain.

In the Midwest.

And it was totally appropriate.

Yes.

So that happened.

And it rained like crazy.

I was test driving the Toyota Sequoia 1794 edition.

Okay.

And I drove that through the storm and kind of missed the storm.

I was going Northwest or Northwest Highway outside of Chicago and I got some rain.

But when I turned around to come back, everything was, there were trees all over the road.

There was, there was puddles everywhere.

There was flooding.

Somehow I missed it and I was in it.

Yeah.

You know, I got, so there was rain earlier last week, like Tuesday, I think, was it Tuesday?

And I just got the Toyota 4Runner Trail Hunter and there was like flash flood warnings

and I was getting all the alerts and all the things.

And I was literally driving through water that was probably two feet high.

I was like, bring it, bring it, bring all the water.

I can do it in this truck.

I don't know if I drove through 24 inches of water, but I certainly drove through more than

a foot of it.

Yeah.

I'm like, yeah, I'm going to swim.

Whatever.

I'm good.

Well, the, the, the trail hunter has like a spout too, so you can forward water a little

bit more.

That spout, which is functional, makes funny noises.

That's what that is.

Yeah.

Okay.

I, you know, I've been trying to figure it out.

I'm like, is it the engine?

Is it?

But yes.

Okay.

Now that makes perfect sense.

Yeah.

It's driving, it's driving me nuts.

It's driving you down, and you're decelerating, you hear the craziest noise.

No, it's, it's, it's, even when you accelerate, it sounds like somebody's turning on a bus

saw.

Yeah.

And there is being pulled through a snorkel.

Yeah.

For people who don't know what that is, it's for extreme off-roading.

Yes.

And, and fording steam streams and stuff like that.

And also it looks cool.

It does.

It looks very cool.

A lot of people have fake snorkels.

This is not that.

Which is kind of sad.

Yes.

Really.

Speaking of kind of sad, you remember my jubilation when Volkswagen handed Rivian

a big bag with a billion dollars and I thought, they're set, they're home free. Everything

is good now. Guess how much money Rivian lost in Q2?

A billion dollars.

A billion dollars. A billion one. They just lost it. It was like they went to Vegas and

they just bet it on 31 black and yeah, it didn't go well.

Yeah.

Rivian has trouble and it's amazing how much trouble they have because they've

been in this business for a while. They're selling vehicles in some volume and they

are selling well reviewed vehicles. So the stuff should be here plus they have cash coming in

because they were selling vans to amazon.com though I don't know where that's at.

Right.

They had a contract for a hundred thousand units and I don't think they're anywhere near

that number yet. Although around here.

We see them a lot.

We see them a lot. Anyway, they lost one point one billion dollars in Q2 which works

out to they sold 10,700 vehicles. They lost about a hundred thousand dollars of vehicles

sold.

Now, I realize that things don't work evenly like that. Things are amortized. You take

you take write downs and things. But still, dang, yeah, that is nowhere in your making

money.

Nope.

They should be close to breaking even.

Yeah.

On stuff now. So if you're an investor there, you're a little worried.

Oh, maybe.

Maybe a lot worried.

You know, I have to say, everywhere I go, I am seeing Rivians everywhere.

Yeah.

Good looking trucks.

Yeah.

People who own them like them.

Yeah.

So the problem is they can't make them affordably enough. And by affordably, I mean, they can't

make them right work for them. They're selling them for what is apparently a reasonable

price. They're selling some.

So that's a bummer.

Yeah.

Here's another bummer along those lines. Are you ready?

Okay.

The the de-escalation of the de-escalation, but the basically the removing the teeth

out of the EPA standards for fuel economy means that manufacturers no longer have to worry about

carbon tax credits.

Right.

Meaning that they don't have to worry about hitting fuel economy numbers and thus they

don't have to buy credits if they miss those numbers.

Right.

Stellantis, for example, was a big buyer of tax credits of carbon credits and Tesla

was a big seller of them. Well, that's not happening anymore.

Yeah.

Some numbers here. These are estimates. Tesla, what was this? Tesla sold $890 million worth

of tax credits in Q2.

Okay.

So almost a billion dollars and one quarter revenue from just selling electric vehicles

as a bonus to selling the vehicles and Rivian made $150 million selling those credits. Those

credits are all gone now.

Yeah.

That is money they're not going to get.

Ooh.

At least in the U.S.

Yeah.

Still the EU.

Right.

But that's a thing. So that's bad. Here's another one. More EV bad news.

Okay.

Maybe you heard this one. The Lucid Gravity. It's out there.

Yeah.

Lucid's first non-big sedan-like car.

Yeah. It's the first SUV.

Yeah.

It looks good. It's well-reviewed. It's got a lot of range and it's not selling.

Yeah.

One report said that they sold nine.

Ooh.

Last so far this year.

Ooh.

Single digit, nine.

There's other numbers that put that number higher but they're still depressing.

Yeah.

And Lucid doesn't report directly so they're just saying the number is higher. But I don't

know what the problem is there. It's expensive. Right? It starts at $82,000. I don't know

if that's the problem.

I would not think that's the problem because people who buy that car, you know, they're

not afraid of that price tag and they... So I don't know. I mean I have friends

who are like when you get that as a test car you have to bring it to us because

they're seriously thinking about buying it. And I haven't seen it yet. So I don't know

who's getting the opportunity to review these cars but it's not regular...

Not a lot of reviews out there.

It's not like regular people.

Yeah. I don't know what's going on with that. But it's kind of depressing because

we sort of thought this was going to save Lucid.

Yeah.

Now Lucid's owners are largely the Saudi wealth fund. Right? Deep, deep, deep pockets.

Right.

It's almost a trillion dollars. So funding this operation isn't killing them. However,

at some point you cut your ties just because you don't want to lose money on something.

And they're losing money on this and I don't know what's going on there either.

So Lucid and Rivian, like, you know, fingers crossed for those guys.

Yeah.

They were new companies, novel product, good product.

Yes.

And then Lucid, too, had some proprietary battery technology. The Lucid Air Sapphire.

One of their trim levels was capable of 500 miles on a charge. That's really cool.

Yeah.

But yeah, no one wants big sit-ins and no one seems to want their big crossover unless that changes.

You know, I think that's going to change. I think maybe they're just ramping up production

and, you know, they just haven't gotten the vehicles in hands to create the conversations yet.

Hopefully. I mean, it's been out there for a while. So that's the depressing part of this.

Yeah.

There is now, they announced today. Today is $7,500 rebate.

I did see that.

It's only on the lease, but most people in this price class lease anyway.

Probably, yeah.

So it's a lease buy-down.

Yeah.

So that helps you with the price. All right. You saw this maybe? Crazy QX80s?

Yes. I was like, what? Yes. I had to think, like, it's been a long weekend.

I had to think about that.

Infinity kind of hurting right now. They're going to lose two models that they used to import from

Mexico, the QX50 Compact Crosshair and the QX55 Fastback.

I liked the QX55, yeah.

Coop-looking version of that. Those are going away. They're imported from Mexico and that doesn't work anymore.

Thank you, tariffs. But they're doing off-road versions and sport versions of the giant QX80 SUV.

Yep.

Maybe. Right now we're seeing them in concept form.

Yeah, prototype.

Moderate car week at the quail. I don't exactly know what the quail is.

I have never been. I just know people go and they wear pretty dresses and big hats.

It's like a lawn party.

Yes.

You drink pimps.

Yes, pimps and lemonade.

Yeah. But the cars look cool.

Yes.

It's nice to see Infinity making news.

Well, and I will say this isn't completely radical.

Well, Infinity in 2020 did compete in the Rubel rally with the QX80.

I don't remember that.

All right.

Well, so a couple of our automotive colleagues actually were piloting the vehicle.

Nicole Wakeland, who has been a guest host for me when you were out about a year ago,

she was the driver. And then Alice Chase, who is more on the influence side of things,

she was the navigator.

Yeah.

QX80 is a big off-road or anybody on a frame truck.

What is that called? The Nissan Patrol. That's the vehicle it's based on.

And that's a serious off-roader.

Yep.

So this isn't crazy.

It's just funny that they take a serious off-roader, dress it up in a tuxedo, and then

still with the tuxedo on, it's putting on hiking boots.

Yes.

Well, you know, it's a look.

I'm trying to get somebody from Infinity on to talk about this.

I would like that.

Yeah.

I would like that very much.

It's your job.

I'm working on it.

They didn't say no.

How's that?

They actually replied to me and they didn't say no.

That's good.

The QX65, a coupe version of the QX60 mid-size SUV, on the way.

Yes.

That looks good.

Yeah.

So some news at Infinity, and they're getting rid of their low-end stuff that maybe wasn't

even brand-appropriate.

I don't know.

We'll see.

It's just nice to see some action there.

Yeah.

And I think they've got stuff next year.

18 months ago, if you were going to ask me about a brand that was going to die in the U.S.,

I might have said Infinity.

But now it seems like there's some action there.

Also, the QX80 probably going to sell well in the way that the Escalade sells for Cadillac.

Yeah.

Speaking of which, this is not on my list, but maybe you saw this.

The redesigned Lincoln Navigator is very nice.

Yes.

My review is up.

They killed the base version.

Huh.

The base price, the price of entry for a Navigator went from about 80 grand to more than 100 grand

in a model year.

Yeah.

And it's not so much that they raised prices, they just killed the bottom end.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I feel like Escalade, the price for entry, is about that too.

So.

It's actually cheaper.

Is it?

Yeah.

It's like 93K.

Okay.

Unbelievably, I checked that in case.

In case it came up in conversation.

Got it.

Yeah.

Well, I'm at the health club.

That never happens, by the way.

All right.

Interesting car.

We touched on it last week a little bit.

The Acura ADX.

Yes.

You have sat in this thing.

I have sat in it.

You've driven this thing.

I've driven it.

Have you eaten chili in it?

I've not eaten chili in it.

I think I brought chili here.

But you purchased chili while sitting in it.

I did purchase chili while sitting in it.

Yeah.

And thank goodness for the red interior.

So tell us.

Tell us what the ADX is because it's interesting.

Yeah.

So this is a new compact SUV from Acura.

It's the new entry level into the SUV lineup.

It is based on the HRV, the Honda HRV platform.

And it is, I think, reasonably priced vehicle with some really nice finishing touches.

And I liked it.

I did not love it.

That is overwhelmingly the response to that vehicle.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because it gives Acura something to sell to young, wealthy urbanites.

Or just young and fast.

You don't need to be that wealthy.

Yeah.

Yeah, which is interesting too.

Yeah.

But just a little bit about Acura.

They just killed the TLX.

That's the mid-size sedan that was not selling at all.

I have numbers here, TLX.

They sold fewer than 3,000 so far this year.

Okay.

The ADX, which is brand new, 200 in the first quarter.

4500 in the second quarter.

So it's now online and selling.

It's starting to ramp up.

And it looks like it's selling pretty well.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot going for this vehicle.

It was the 1.5-liter engine delivers 190 horsepower.

And it is okay-powered.

If you are not an aggressive driver, like you don't need anything more than that.

But the problem I had, so I live in the city.

And I park up a ramp that's 22 degrees.

And so I have to go up this ramp to get into my parking space.

And I usually back into my spot.

I did not have enough power to back up that ramp.

So I had to start pulling forward into the-to kind of do a little dance inside my-

Like it kept, like, going forward down the ramp.

And then I would like yeee.

And I mean, it was just-it was a really awkward thing.

Okay.

I've got to ask.

Was it not enough power or some complication with the CVT automatic?

Although it should be a fixed gear in reverse.

Yeah.

I don't know what that-

That's very weird.

It was very weird.

And I, like, would punch it and it would just, like, kind of, like-

It was struggling up a 22-degree ramp.

So going backwards.

So when I was going forward, it was a little bit easier.

And, you know, it's small enough that I could do, like, 20-point turn

and then back into my space so I could nose out.

But so I thought it was a little bit wimpy, but not completely bad.

If you're not an aggressive driver, it's fine.

But the biggest problem I had with it was just the overall noise that creeps into the cabin

from the engine and the CVT.

It was just like-

Well, that's disappointing.

Yeah.

And that's sort of the nature of a CVT.

Yeah.

It was just-it was very-like, I think that was the bigger problem.

It wasn't the power.

It was, like, the sound.

And then it made you feel like you were not-

So for people listening who don't know what we're talking about,

most transmissions are stepped-gear automatics.

Yeah.

So when you hear six-speed automatic, eight-speed automatic,

there are six or eight gears that you roll through on the way to your speed.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's it.

And a CVT doesn't do that.

No.

There's an infinite number-theoretically, there's an infinite number of ratios,

and it's always sliding in those ratios.

That's actually good for efficiency and actually good for power,

acceleration, but it doesn't feel good.

And if you are old enough to remember a stepped-gear automatics,

these are troubling sometimes to you.

Now, that said, Subaru and Honda have done an excellent job with CVTs.

Yeah.

Actually has so has Nissan now.

Nissan had some problems with their good.

So compare this car to, like, the Mazda CX-30,

which is-Mazda CX-30 is not as inexpensive as it could be

for a subcomp head-crosserver, but it's also wonderful.

Yeah.

You know, so I will say, I really like how-like,

the CX-30 is very sporty.

And I like how it drives, it's compact.

And to me, that has the right amount of power

and the right amount of pep.

And it just feels really good.

But the tech, to me, is a little bit of an obstacle

because you have that rotary dial that you have to use

to no touch screen.

Generally unpopular.

And generally unpopular.

I mean, you get used to it.

And I know people who own Mazda,

and they're like, oh, I love it.

It's amazing.

I like it.

So it doesn't bother me, but it's not my favorite.

And when you're going, like if you are using Apple CarPlay,

touching the screen is just easier.

And so that, to me, is a little bit dated on the Mazda,

whereas the Acura ADX has the wireless Apple CarPlay

and Android Auto.

It has a touch screen.

And it just, it feels a little bit more modern.

Which one would you rather take on a long drive

across the country?

Ooh, that's a tough question.

Mazda seats have gotten kind of uncomfortable lately.

And I did drive the ADX down to Indianapolis and back

and thought those seats were incredibly comfortable,

which, you know, the A Honda HR-V seats,

not comfortable at all.

So I found the Acura ADX to be comfortable.

And it's been, it's probably been more than a year

since I've driven the CX-30s, so I can't,

I don't remember the comfort.

Now, if I were just zipping around town,

running errands, coming up to, you know,

Palatine, Illinois from Chicago,

Mazda CX-30 every day all day.

Yeah, I'm actually trying to get my daughter

to be interested in the CX-30.

Right.

However she is, she has sworn to herself

to get a color she likes.

And the Mazda CX-30 does not come in interesting colors.

What color does she want?

Yellow.

Ooh, that's going to be a tough one.

Like we drove the Nissan Kix.

Okay.

And that comes on a great yellow.

Yes.

The problem with the Kix is to get everything you want,

including heated seats, it's no longer a bargain

because you have to get the sunroof package.

Very expensive to get heated seats.

Yes.

So you have to get the top trim level of three trim levels

plus an expensive package.

However, it might be worth it.

Well, because then all we'll drive, too.

Oh, and speaking of the yellow Kix,

it just popped up on the screen in front of us.

Yep, that's it.

Yeah, I mean, I really like the Kix.

I thoroughly enjoyed test driving that.

So the Acura ADX is out now.

Prices range from, I had this somewhere,

$36,000 to $45,000 versus the HRV 28 grand to 32 grand.

So you're big bump.

Yeah.

And the version I was driving was the A-spec

with the advanced package.

So it had all the things.

That's all the cars.

Yeah.

And I think it was ass tested at about 46.

So Acura, little lineup shake-up, right?

They added the Integra two years ago,

which is basically a very nice Civic.

This is a very nice HRV that they've added to lineup.

So volume is going to be up at Acura.

Yeah.

Question not if this is good for the brand,

but the Acura brand, I think,

has lost some definition over time.

Yeah.

So maybe they can refine that in the way that

Infinity seems to be grappling for an identity

and maybe finding it.

Yeah.

So this car, like it?

Love it?

Lump it?

I liked it.

I didn't love it.

Don't say lump it.

No lumping.

There are very few cars I would lump.

Most of them don't have Apple CarPlay.

But I really...

Don't make me start talking about the Cordova.

I will not.

But I liked it.

I think it's a solid car.

The interior is really nice.

My test vehicle had the red leather, which was gorgeous.

And I think it's an attractive vehicle,

but I think they need to work on the

NVH noise vibration and harshness.

They need to stop some of that noise

from coming into the cabin,

and I think it would be a much better experience.

So it hasn't been fully Acura.

Acura-ized.

Acurized.

Yeah.

That's an unsayable word.

It is.

All right.

There it is.

We're about to review of the Acura ADX.

I look forward to driving it.

I don't have it on my list.

I was going to talk about my list.

I have so many electric vehicles coming.

I'm so excited.

Yeah.

It's a great car.

I know the next three months of cars now.

Okay.

Super excited.

All right.

After the break, we talked to Robert Calangelo.

Yes.

Of GreenSense Radio.

That should be a good show.

Yeah.

Good chat.

This is the show.

All right.

We'll be right back.

Questions or comments?

Drop us a line at carstuffatconsumerguide.com.

That's carstuffatconsumerguide.com.

Welcome back to the Car Stuff Podcast.

And we're back.

This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff Podcast.

I'm Tom.

She is Jill.

Jill, how's it going?

Second time you've asked me that, it's still going well.

Yeah.

Well, something could have changed in the last 22 minutes.

That's true.

I'm going to start eating the cinnamon donut that you brought for me, thankfully.

That's a mood brightener.

It is a mood brightener.

And it's like a cinnamon twist this week instead of the powdered cinnamon donut.

It's called the sugar twist.

Okay.

It's extra cost.

Okay.

It's not on the regular donut rack.

It's in the display case.

Actually, all of these long johns too.

So special week.

What blech?

Blech.

Thank you for bringing me cinnamon.

I appreciate you.

Last week, I got a vanilla long john to take home.

And my daughter said blech.

Yeah.

Your daughter's a smart woman.

No, because she said that long johns shouldn't be vanilla.

Okay.

So now you've got chocolate long johns for her.

All right.

We could talk social media later on the phone is my good friend, Robert Colangelo.

He's an entrepreneur, radio host and an author with a passion for sustainability and innovation.

Robert, how are you, sir?

Great, Tom.

It's always good to talk to you and hear you on the radio.

It is good to talk to you today, Robert.

Now, before we get going with a very interesting conversation.

You have some news about the Greensense show.

Yes.

We did our last show live 31st and that was with you.

So as a long time featured guest, I thought it was only fitting that we would air the

last show with you because we looked at so much change in mobility that I thought that

was a great way to end things.

I have always enjoyed being a part of that show.

I always felt honored.

I always felt smart being a part of that show.

One of the great things.

I always felt less smart when I talked to you because you're so knowledgeable.

We would have the same.

We would finish taping the show and then talk for another half hour about the same topic.

That was the kind of conversations we had.

So I'm kind of bummed out about this, Robert.

But can people still listen to back episodes?

Yes.

On Podbean, you could go on greensenseshow.com and all our past episodes are on there.

But you know, Tom, it's not something to be bummed out about.

We were on air for 15 years.

Yes.

And we watched the sustainability issue change over the years from its infancy to, I would

say, an advanced area and also go through ups and downs depending on what president was

in office and what focus that administration had on sustainability.

So I'm very happy with what we've done.

I hope we got the word out and that we help make the world a better place to live.

Well, it was a great show and I was proud to be a part of it.

It's funny, too, the range of topics that we covered over time.

When you and I first met, we were discussing the Chevrolet Volt extended range electric

vehicle, a vehicle that no one understood.

And we went on to discuss electric vehicles, which most people didn't understand.

So it always seemed like we were helping fight the battle for information.

And I really enjoyed that.

And now, Tom, looking back, the things that we didn't understand seem so simple.

They do, and it's funny.

And I've made this point a couple of times up until relatively recently, people were kind

of afraid of hybrids, which is kind of strange because they've been around for a long time.

And Toyota has made them so normal and so simple, people shouldn't fear them.

But now that we're afraid of electric vehicles, hybrids are flying off the shelf.

Like you can't sell a vehicle anymore without a hybrid version of it.

And Toyota is going all hybrid with most of its lineup.

So the battle for information is slowly won and people are being moved reluctantly

into a higher tech, more efficient era.

Well, they say a mind is like a rubber band.

Once it's stretched, it doesn't return to normal.

So when you're exposed to new things, people are reluctant to change.

But then after a while, the things that were once new seem easy.

And the same with the hybrid, you know, that was a confusing thing at first.

I remember the first Prius I drove in where it would show how the energy would transfer

when it would run off the gas and when it would run off the electric.

And it just seemed so advanced and complicated.

And now it seems, you know, mundane.

So yeah, I think that's just human nature.

It's funny too, because I remember the Ford Fusion had this thing where you would

build a tree while you were driving.

Where you would put the leaves on the tree, right?

And you would, I guess, grow a tree.

Grow it, not build a tree.

But yeah, if you did the thing like not to break too aggressively,

because if you hit the brakes too hard, you were not maximizing regenerative braking.

And if you accelerated too hard, you were obviously wasting gas.

So yeah, I never, I always had a tree.

I had no leaves.

I had no leaves on my tree.

So Robert, you and I were talking earlier this week,

and there's a topic you really wanted to cover,

and you challenged me to come up with what it meant automotively.

And that is counter urbanization.

And I didn't really know this, but globally cities are shrinking.

Yes.

And, you know, I thought I'd take a leap here and maybe do something a little different

than maybe your listeners are used to.

But when I look at sustainability, you know, the automobile has come a long way.

Manufacturing facilities and cars are much more sustainable than they were 10 years ago.

They're creating less admission, less pollution, and a lot less waste.

And they're using energy much more efficiently.

But if we look back at past automotive operations, both manufacturing facilities

and all the facilities that it takes to make a car,

both the raw materials and the parts component,

they've left a legacy of blight in many, many areas around the country.

And to your point that you just mentioned, did you know that according to Yahoo Finance,

nearly 15,000 American cities are projected to lose population by the year 2100?

Wow. No, I did not know that.

And if you look at that, you could see that some cities are experiencing slow growth

while others are actually shrinking, not the size of the city,

but the population and the economy.

And then we have something we call dying cities.

And the shrinking and dying cities are really most visible.

You guessed it, right here in the Midwest in the Northeast states,

the old, cold part of our country that we affectionately referred to as the Rust Belt.

And you could see these shuttered factories and abandoned mills.

And they got the landscape almost like perspiration states from our industrial past.

They're blight on the properties.

And what you see is these were once thriving economies where we saw coal, steel, textiles,

and autos being manufactured.

And when these industries closed, the jobs vanished, people moved out,

the tax base shrank, and some cities slipped into what I call a death spiral.

And that's what makes them the dying city is they have half the residents,

twice the infrastructure and not enough revenue to sustain city services

or attract new people to those cities.

So that was what I started thinking is that when this starts to happen

and we've got this large amount of cities that are shrinking,

and then you've got sophisticated cities like San Francisco and Austin and Denver

that are bringing all this new technology like Wave-O

and Ride Sharing Services and Uber and electric car charging networks,

are we starting to get a transportation divide in our country

where not only are these cities in a death spiral,

but they're not getting any of these new sustainable mobility technologies.

And that's what I wanted to talk a little about.

Yeah, and it's an absolutely great question.

And one of the interesting things about declining city populations

is that I think that the business case for ride-hailing, ride-sharing,

mostly ride-hailing and autonomous ride-hailing is basically urban areas, right?

I think that the further you move away from a concentrated population base,

the more difficult it is to make money using those services.

Like you see ride-hailing a lot less out here in Palatine,

which is still pretty population-dense than you do in Chicago.

Yeah, no, they're everywhere in Chicago.

And the other issue there, too, is if people move out of the cities,

they're going to need vehicles and affordability is an issue.

So if you're looking for a divide or a chasm in affordability between haves and haves not,

it's going to be difficult for people to afford vehicles

if they were going to make the move to ride-hailing or ride-sharing.

And one of the things that Elon Musk had said years ago

before he was as controversial as he is,

was that the answer for affordable electric vehicles is ride-hailing.

Like there's a point where people just can't afford cars and they shouldn't bother.

Yes. Well, first I'm remiss. I didn't say hello to Jill. Hello, Jill.

Hello. Good. How are you doing?

And I wish I had some of those donuts you were talking about.

Oh, they look good.

The cinnamon donut is very good. The long johns, I mean meh.

What's also funny about that, Tom,

when I started looking at some examples of dying cities,

a lot of them are tied to the auto industry,

at least in the Midwest, northeast.

So for example, Gary, Indiana, that steel city.

It was once held, I don't know if you know this,

but it was the city of the future.

It was a very progressive city.

At its peak, it had 180,000 residents.

Wow. Today the population is less than 70,000.

And not only do they have less people,

but they have this legacy of blight and pollution.

There's tens of thousands of abandoned homes.

There's high commercial property vacancy rates,

and there's very little economic opportunity there.

And that's a good example of a dying city,

and a lot of that steel was used to make cars.

And it went into the automotive industry

that fueled the Midwest.

Another company and a tie to another city

is Centralia, Pennsylvania.

Do you know about this city?

I don't.

This was a coal mining town,

and coal goes into coke, which goes into steel making.

And that was in Pennsylvania and is now completely abandoned.

There was a underground fire that started in 1962,

and it's still burning,

and it left the town with terrible air pollution,

and it's undevelopable because there's an underground fire

that's been burning for what, 80 years?

It's amazing.

The good news is that pollution can be cleaned.

Economies can be turned around

with the right political will and leadership.

And I've seen this in many cities.

Prior to working in agriculture,

I dealt a lot with mayors on this issue of redevelopment.

And another positive out there in redeveloping cities

is that it creates jobs and improves the tax base.

And the best thing and something we really need today,

it's a bipartisan issue that can bring both sides of the aisle

together.

That's something that's very rare in today's political context.

You know, an interesting point about Dine Cities,

and I don't think Louisville is a Dine City,

but it is a city that could use more jobs.

And one of the interesting things about Louisville,

and I don't know how on top of the story you were last week,

Robert, but Ford made this announcement

about their Model T moment.

And a lot of it had to do with manufacturing techniques

and updated high-tech manufacturing.

And the good news is that they were going to bring 2,200 jobs

to Louisville to the Kentucky car plant that Ford has there.

Here's the bad news about that.

That sounds like they're running the plant at near capacity

and they're doing it at just 2,200 workers.

It was not long ago that that plant hired 4,500 workers,

making the escape and the course there.

So that plant is going to be working again

kind of at full throttle, hopefully,

with half the workers.

With half the workers.

And that's a problem.

And when you talk about bipartisanship

and hopefully, you know, Congress doing something,

this is why it's so important that we do get battery plants

here in the U.S.

because we need all the jobs we can get

because the auto industry is going to be employing

fewer people moving forward.

Well, I could say the same thing in the steel industry.

The South Works plant used to employ 30,000 people.

I think it runs now at 6,000.

You know, and I think that's also the big myth

is that before manufacturing created lots of jobs,

but technology has been infused in everything

and robotics and AI and automation.

And so we can do a lot more with a lot less people.

So manufacturing doesn't produce the kinds of jobs

that it used to in the past.

And again, another example of a city

that went into a death spiral but recovered

is Motor City, Detroit.

You know, it had a population.

Do you know what its population was at the peak?

I don't.

Was it like 22, 2.2 million, 2.3 million?

Very close.

It was 1.85 million.

And then it lost 65% of the population.

Wow.

Isn't that huge?

And in 2013, it filed the largest

municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history,

which is, so not only did it lose people,

but it lost, you know, it's a bond rating

and economic status.

But today, there has been a tremendous investment

in technology, mobility, battery storage

and production, like you mentioned earlier.

Real estate's revising parts of the city.

And it's also anchored by institutions

like Wayne State University, the Detroit Medical Center.

The parts of the auto industry are still there.

The Renaissance Center down by the river.

And they've got a lot of thriving sports facilities down there.

So things can turn around.

And I think Detroit is a good example

of how things can get terrible,

but they can also rebound.

A city I really like as a great example

is Akron, Ohio.

Do you know why Akron was so important

to the auto industry?

I thought it was tires.

Exactly.

It was the rubber capital of the world.

It's once had as many as 50 tire manufacturing companies.

And by 1980, most left.

And Goodyear is like the major remaining one.

And instead of leadership there,

instead of chasing old jobs,

they reinvented themselves as the Polymer

and Advanced Materials Hub

with the Goodyear Slash University Akron Polymer Research Center

leading the way.

And they've had some really cool innovations out of there.

Do you know what an elastomer is by any chance?

I do not, Jill.

Elastomers are a variation of a polymer,

but if you've ever seen an ATM,

it has that hard shell on the outside.

That's an elastomer.

And that was developed at this Akron Polymer Research Center.

And that's a great example

of not trying to go chase the old way things were done,

but try to come in and find something new.

And create something that attracts new investment

and new talent.

So that was sort of my thoughts out there, Tom,

is that there's some good examples of legacy cities

that are turning around.

And back to the original question,

do you think mobility,

as it becomes more sustainable

at less emissions and cleaner factories,

are we creating a transportation divide in our country?

Are we going to see old technology

in these dying shrinking areas

and new technology in the more progressive ones?

I think we might, actually.

And I think that ultimately,

if ride-hailing is going to become a bigger, bigger thing,

especially autonomous ride-hailing,

they're going to want to charge a fair amount for it.

So it may not be the affordable answer to owning a car

that people think it will be.

Right.

I think the other thing that we haven't discussed

is the idea of weather.

You talked about San Francisco and Austin

getting all this great new technology

and ride-hailing and Waymo

and Tesla's piloting their driverless taxis.

And we don't get that in the Midwest because of weather.

Our infrastructure is bad.

It's constantly under construction

and there's constant heat and cold.

And so I think that there's going to be

an additional divide that's going to be

between the Sun Belt and the Rust Belt

of who can get that tech.

Well, at least initially.

I mean, that is a technological barrier.

And hopefully, we breach that.

Well, hopefully.

That created an opportunity for innovation.

The great thing about gas

is it works everywhere.

But these renewable and sustainable technologies,

as you said, Jill, are very weather and climate dependent.

So I don't know.

Maybe something new will come out of that.

Can we use these old factories

as a way to build new technologies?

Like Michigan made a considerable investment

into battery technology

and took some of those older areas and converted them.

So every town creates an opportunity.

So I think we have a lot of these cities

that we're seeing.

And, you know, this is a global issue.

It's not here in the States.

I was just reading about Japan,

how the population is getting older

and it's more expensive to live there.

People are having less children.

So they're getting an older population

with less new birth.

So there's some serious problems out there

that we're going to have to start addressing.

Interesting.

Robert, we've run out of time,

but give us a final thought on this whole

counter-urbanization situation.

So I would say that, you know,

these cities declined over decades

and it's going to take time to revitalize them.

It's not going to happen overnight.

But with ingenuity and sustainable innovation,

I really believe there's hope

to turn a challenge into a great opportunity.

Robert, thank you so much for joining us today.

And thank you for 15 years

of one of the most worthy to listen to podcasts out there.

Well, thank you for having me on

and Jill, it's always good to hear.

All right, we'll talk again soon.

That was Robert Colangelo of The Greenscent Show.

We're going to take a break.

And when we come back...

Quiz time.

Speed.

You've heard me and my colleague Paul

on the Car Stuff podcast whenever Jill's out of town.

But now you can hear us every week

on the We Are Motor Driven podcast,

along with Jennifer from Auto Exotica

and Harvey from Rides and Drives.

We talk about everything from sports cars to trucks

to EVs and our favorite, Speed.

So join us each week by searching

We Are Motor Driven,

wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Welcome back to the Car Stuff podcast.

And we're back.

This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff podcast.

I am Tom.

She is Jill.

We just talked about some cool stuff

with Robert Colangelo.

Yes.

I'm going to miss his podcast.

Yes.

I'm going to miss being a part of that

because I felt smart being a part of that.

Wait, aren't you smart?

Regardless.

I mean, reasonably.

Okay.

I guess.

Just to verify.

But, you know, if you're involved

in a smart conversation,

you start to feel a little...

You start to feel smart.

A little smug.

Yeah, okay.

All right.

It's quiz time,

but you probably want to talk a little

social media first.

I do.

Yeah.

So you can find me on Instagram,

TikTok, YouTube,

Facebook, LinkedIn,

all the things.

I've been doing a real big push

on Instagram lately.

I just top 5,000 followers.

So thanks to everybody.

Wait, where's this?

On Instagram.

Okay.

So thanks to everybody who followed.

I was like at four,

nine, nine, nine for like ever.

And I was just like,

come on.

I just need a couple more people.

So thank you for those

who pushed me over the edge.

So now I'm starting to work

on my YouTube.

So if you haven't subscribed to me

on YouTube, I would love,

I would love a subscription there

at Jill Siminello.

And I use the hashtag

card as your...

Also, you can watch the podcast

on YouTube.

You can.

You can watch it on my YouTube

channel.

If you want to watch that.

If you would like to see what Tom

and I actually look like.

Also, you should follow us

on Facebook.

The Karstoff podcast on Facebook.

Where we post pictures

of the donuts.

You can rate the donuts.

You can...

And the cinnamon always gets

a 10 out of 10.

A couple of weeks ago,

we posted a picture of

producer Randy.

Yeah.

Up until that time,

he had been a ghost.

No longer ghost.

Yep.

Yeah.

So there you go.

All right.

You want to check us out

on Facebook.

Yeah.

I'm Kargai Tom.

Yeah.

I was like,

you also do some social things.

Yeah.

Kargai Tom on Twitter X

and Louis Guy.

Fun cars this week.

Actually, my car spotter cars,

hashtag car spotter,

came during the weather

nightmare that came blowing

through here Saturday.

So all the pictures are wet.

Okay.

All right.

It's quiz time.

Are you ready?

Always.

This is the Consumer Guide

Karstoff Power Quiz.

Today's topic is

Korea or Japan?

Okay.

I'm going to just

mention something to you

and you have to tell me

if it is Korean or

Japanese.

Okay.

It sounds way simpler

than what I think it's

actually going to be.

Maybe a little.

Five questions.

Could you like to

throw me a wrench?

Plus a bonus question

always related to the

topic of the day.

Actually, it kind of is

today.

Just a little bit.

Okay.

You need three

total to win.

Okay.

Are you ready?

I am ready.

We have 14 minutes.

There is another topic

I want to get to

so you may not

dilly-dally.

I'm meeting a donut.

I made dilly-dally.

Yeah.

Are you ready?

Yeah.

It is called

Daihatsu.

Ooh.

Daihatsu.

Car brand

Daihatsu.

I think it's Japanese.

It is Japanese.

It is now wholly owned

by Toyota.

Okay.

And they had a brief

period of sales here

in the U.S.

like three or four model

years.

They sold the

Daihatsu Rocky

which was like the

Suzuki sidekick.

It was a very small body

unframed crossover.

Okay.

And the

Ushiraid which was

a subcompact car.

It didn't

make it here in the U.S.

They now sell

Kai cars.

You know what those are?

I thought they were

key cars.

Okay.

Are they Kai?

I don't know.

Okay.

But Kei.

Okay.

And they're

super popular in Japan

because they're

more or less regulated

by the government.

They get huge

Japanese consumers

get huge tax breaks

for buying very tiny

cars.

Yes.

But the cars

have to be under

660 CC

for no reason.

So that's what

Daihatsu does these days.

And they sell

cars called the

Miro, the Move

and the Tonto.

Okay.

All right.

You have one point.

Okay.

I got a point.

Incheon City.

What?

Incheon City

I-N-C-H-E-O-N.

I did look

it up.

It's Incheon City.

Is that Korean

or Japanese?

I have never

heard of this.

I'd heard of

Daihatsu.

I'm

going to say Korean.

Incheon City is

Korean

and I asked it

because it is where

General Motors

builds the tracks,

the invista,

the trailblazer

and the Encore GX.

Oh, so it's not

an automaker.

It's a city.

Incheon City.

Well, I don't know.

I was thinking

you were talking about

car brands.

No.

So it's just a thing.

I never said

brands.

It's a thing.

Okay.

Now I've got my-

Okay.

All right.

I got my head in the

game now.

I'm going to say

it's going to be

less affordable.

A lot less.

When the 15 percent

tariff kicks in

on those bad boys.

Yes.

But they're nice cars

and they're on the list

of things that my daughter

is driving.

I want her to like

the invista

because a year old,

they're a crazy good deal

well equipped.

However,

she doesn't like

any of the colors

because she wants yellow

and they are kind

of an old people colors.

Yeah.

So that's kind

of a problem.

All right.

You have two points.

Okay.

I'm like that I know

because it's

Japan and England.

I had to check.

Korean is left-hand drive.

Okay.

All right.

You've got three.

You've won.

All right.

The won.

W-O-N.

The won.

I don't know

what that is.

Hmm.

Well, I am saying

the won.

Oh, is it a

monetary?

It could be

currency.

Sure.

I'm going to say

Korean.

Yes.

It's the Korean

won and the Japanese

yen.

And there are currently

1,401 to the dollar.

How much?

1,400.

Okay.

So that makes

like doing the math

kind of tricky.

Yes.

In fact, this is funny.

I wrote about this

the other day.

In India,

the rupee

is relatively

small

value,

small value units.

So

to make that work

in advertising

or in transactions,

they use something

called a lock,

L-A-K-H,

which is

100,000

rupees.

So it's just

kind of shorthand,

like a grand,

like we might say a grand.

All right.

Last one.

Are you ready?

Mm-hmm.

Renault Samsung Motors.

Is it Korean or Japanese?

Hmm.

I'm trying to fill the

dead air,

even though there's

music playing.

Mm-hmm.

Totally have no idea.

Um...

I'm going to say Korean.

It is.

Yeah.

Samsung's a Korean maker.

They entered into this

joint venture with Renault.

It's kind of a flop.

I mean, they build vehicles

together,

but they mostly sell them

as Renaults.

So I don't know where this

went.

Although now,

I believe it is Renault

Samsung that

Geely is building

pollsters with

to not build them in China.

Okay.

So there's that.

All right.

You got five out of five.

Woo!

All right.

Are you ready?

Bonus question coming.

I win.

You got five out of five.

You're familiar with

Baskin Robbins?

Yes.

All right.

How many Baskin Robbins

do you think there are

in the world?

You ask me these

questions,

and I either go

really high or really low.

Um, 10,000.

You were close this time.

7,800.

Okay.

How many do you think

there are in the U.S.?

I'm sort of

surprised by this number.

6,000.

Just 2,200.

Oh.

I don't know if that

if that brand,

if that franchise is contracted

or what.

And how many do you think

there are in

South Korea?

Ah,

um,

100.

1,700.

Wow.

Nearly as many in

South Korea

as there are in the U.S.

Wow.

It is the interesting thing.

They like their ice cream, apparently.

It used to be 31 flavors,

right?

Mm-hmm.

They've backed off of that.

And they're branding anymore.

Okay.

So I don't know

how many flavors they have,

but if it's 30,

I feel cheated.

Okay.

All right.

I was going to say

when I was a kid,

we would go to Baskin Robbins

and I would always get

two scoops

and I'd get

peppermint stick

and bubble gum.

Oh.

Hahaha.

I,

Do you have an issue

with chocolate?

What's wrong with the

chocolate?

No,

I wanted the bubble gum

because

peanut butter,

rocky road.

I would get the bubble gum ice cream

and then I could,

like I would,

I would like literally

spit the little gum pieces out

and save them.

Hahaha.

You no longer get to

call anything else gross.

Hahaha.

Um,

I was a kid.

I want to say

I had the bubble gum.

I'm still good.

You know where

we used to go for ice cream?

There was a Dairy Queen

in Chicago

on Lincoln

and Crawford.

Mm-hmm.

Or close to that

intersection.

And my parents always

took us there

and that was soft serve.

Okay.

Dairy Queen was big

too.

Which I didn't know

was at National

at the time.

But we also used to go

to Howard Johnson's

which I think

advertised 28 flavors

for a while.

Hojo had

Yeah.

Ice cream.

Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And I think it was

really close to my office

in Morton Grove

there outside of Chicago.

Interesting.

All right.

I need you to tell me

which of the following

four flavors,

ice cream flavors

is fake in

South Korea.

In South Korea.

Got it.

Yeah.

I actually read reviews

of all these flavors.

Are you ready?

Mm-hmm.

Sweet corn cheese.

Okay.

Sweet potato cheese.

Mm-hmm.

Sweet cream and

shallot.

Green tea cookie.

I think the

green tea cookie

has to be real.

Okay.

Because that's

something I would want

to eat.

My daughter

loves green tea stuff

and matcha.

Yeah.

The matcha

matcha lattes.

My new favorite

by the way.

I'm sorry

I'm stalling

but you get

like the new matcha latte

is much less sweet

and if you get it

without the syrup

and put cinnamon on it

it is amazing.

Yeah.

That is my new drink

of choice.

And I do coconut milk

so matcha latte

with coconut milk

no syrup

and then

sprinkle on the cinnamon.

All right.

But

so that one's real.

I think

so you said

there was

something with cheese.

Sweet corn cheese.

Mm-hmm.

Sweet potato cheese

and sweet cream

and shallot.

I think this

shallot is weird.

Okay.

So I'm going to say

that's not real.

That's not.

Good job.

You swept today.

Who wants to put onion

in their ice cream?

You know it's the one here

I would try.

No.

I don't like green tea.

Sweet corn cheese.

I've had

there is a

a Filipino

ice cream

ice cream store

near my old office.

Everything's near my old

office.

Morton Girls is not that

exciting but here it is.

They got all this stuff.

I'm making the case for

it being exciting.

This Filipino ice cream store

they had fun stuff like that.

Mm-hmm.

And what's

the green

the purple yam

is that ube?

Yeah ube.

They have ube ice cream

but they had a lot of

this corn

stuff and corn

wonderfully sweet.

Yeah well you would think

like cheese and ice cream

would be weird but when

you think about what ice

cream is it's milk

and cheese is milk

and so.

Although they do

actually use cheddar

sometimes which is

really interesting.

Okay.

But yeah I've had this

stuff and none of it is

bad.

Okay.

I don't know that I've

done that for a while.

I'm going to put a six

and an exclamation point

and then two more

exclamation points.

Oh okay.

I'm going to

underline it.

I'm underlining it twice.

Got it.

I don't want to underline

it a third time because

that would be overkill.

That would be a little

bit overkill.

There is a list that

showed up a couple of

weeks ago and I never

got to it from IC cars.

Okay.

And it's basically

tracking resale value of

vehicles that they

list on IC cars.

Okay.

And the drops

and the increases.

And I can't make

head or tails of the price

increase list.

I don't understand why

vehicles would get so much

more expensive in a short

period of time over the

period of a year.

But the losses are

interesting.

And the top three vehicles

to lose value used in the

last three and they

don't they're not specific

about model years.

Okay.

It's just those vehicles

listed the average price

for those.

So all all these vehicles

but top three models on

the loss list.

Tesla's.

The model s the model y

and the model X and

somehow the model three is

much much lower on the list.

But the model s which was

the original big sedan

lost used sixty six hundred

dollars in value in a year.

Okay.

The model y has lost four

thousand dollars in a year

and the model X seven

thousand bucks.

Here's the thing if you

can live with the

political issues aside if

you can just model three

or model y the small

crossover.

Yeah.

It's an interesting vehicle

to buy.

The average transaction price

right now is twenty nine

thousand dollars for which

you get a vehicle with good

range.

Fun to drive.

They're right a little

firm.

They're a little bit loud

but they're really kind of

excellent examples of the

electric car breed and

yeah lots of people bought

them.

So all you need is the

bumper sticker that says I

bought this before Elon

went crazy.

And then you're cool.

Which is now the hottest

the value of that sticker has

gone up a thousand bucks.

Oh right.

Yeah.

So it's great.

Other cars on this list that

have lost value the Ford

Explorer hybrid that vehicle

hardly exists.

That vehicle is no longer

available to the public.

It's only available to police

department.

So I don't know why people

care about this.

This one's interesting the Jeep

Gladiator and I think that's

just a victim of the Wrangler

versus Bronco battle.

It's just too much of those

vehicles out there.

The Mercedes Benz GLB.

That was the little boxy

subcompact crossover.

It was always a weird fit

in their lineup anyway.

I liked it.

I liked it better as an

electric car.

Maserati Levante.

I always forget that vehicle

exists.

Yeah.

Lincoln Aviator.

I don't know why.

Mercedes Benz AMG GT.

Sure when you buy a car

that starts at 200 grand

it's going to go down in

value.

And then the Tesla Model 3.

Got it.

So there you go.

We should probably have

these folks on again to

talk about this list or

the next list.

Maybe next quarter.

Yep.

All right.

Guess what we did?

We had a really good show.

We had a good show.

It was good to talk to

Robert.

Thank you.

Yes.

To Robert Colangelo of

Greensense Radio.

Thank you, Jill.

Thank you producer Randy

and the good folks here

at TalkZone.

Let's talk more about

cars again.

Next week.

Remember to check us out

at ConsumerGuide.com.

The Car Stuff podcast is

produced by J-Turn Media.

To advertise on the show

please drop us a line

at carstuffatconsumerguide.com.

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Acura Integra

Cordoba Cordova

Chevrolet Volt

Toyota Prius

Ford Fusion

Ford Model T

Tesla Model S

Tesla Model Y

Tesla Model X

Ford Explorer

Jeep Gladiator

Jeep Wrangler

Ford Bronco

Maserati Levante

Tesla Model 3

About this episode

Original notes