Ford Built A Cayman GT4…in 1985 — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep. 188
The Carmudgeon Show
Ford Built A Cayman GT4…in 1985 — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep. 188
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Car
Ford Sierra
The Ford Sierra RS Cosworth is a special version of the Ford Sierra car that was made for racing. It has a powerful engine and a unique look, making it popular among car enthusiasts.
Car
BMW M3
Car
Gm Sierra
Car
BMW E30
Part
drive shaft
The drive shaft is a part of the car that helps move power from the engine to the wheels. If it gets worn out, it can cause problems while driving.
Car
Volkswagen Egolf
Company
Falken Tires
Falken Tires is a company that makes tires for cars. They are known for making tires that perform well, especially in challenging weather.
Term
tire size
Tire size tells you how big a tire is, which is important for making sure it fits your car and works well.
Term
Yokohama
Yokohama is a brand that makes tires for cars. They are known for making tires that help cars grip the road well, especially in performance situations.
Term
manual transmission
A manual transmission is a way to change gears in a car by using a stick and a pedal. It gives the driver more control over how the car drives.
Car
Tesla Semi
Car
Merkur XR4Ti
The Merkur XR4Ti is a car that was sold in the U.S. and is based on a European model called the Ford Sierra. It has a sporty design and was known for being fun to drive.
Term
turbocharged
Turbocharged means the car's engine has a special device that helps it make more power by pushing in more air.
Concept
DTM
DTM stands for Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters, which is a racing series in Germany. It features cars that are modified from regular cars to race against each other.
Car
Jeep Cherokee
The Jeep XJ Cherokee is a type of SUV that was made by Jeep from the mid-1980s to the early 2000s. It's known for being tough and good for off-road driving.
Car
Ford RS Cosworth
The Ford RS Cosworth is a special version of a Ford car that was made for racing. It has a powerful engine and is famous for being very fast and fun to drive.
Car
Mercury XR4Ti
The Mercury XR4Ti is a sporty car that was sold in the U.S. in the 1980s. It has a turbocharged engine, which means it can go really fast, and it was designed to be fun to drive.
Term
RS
'RS' stands for 'Rally Sport' and usually means the car is designed for better performance and handling. It's like a sportier version of a regular car.
Term
steering response
Steering response is how fast and accurately the car turns when you move the steering wheel. Good response means the car feels more alive and easier to control.
Car
XR4 Ti
The XR4 Ti is a sporty car made by Ford that was popular in the 1980s. It was known for being fun to drive and had a turbo engine for extra power.
Term
center of gravity
The center of gravity is where the car's weight is balanced. If it's low, the car is more stable and handles better when turning.
Car
Lucid Gravity
Term
body control
Body control is how well a car stays stable and balanced while driving, especially when turning or going over bumps. A car with good body control feels more connected to the road and easier to handle.
Term
purchased brand new
When someone says a car was 'purchased brand new', it means the car was bought fresh from the store, not used by anyone else before.
Car
Ford RS500
The Ford RS500 is a special version of a Ford car that was designed for racing and has a powerful turbocharged engine. It's rare and highly valued by car enthusiasts.
Term
naturally aspirated
A naturally aspirated engine gets air into it just by using the natural pressure of the atmosphere, without any extra help from devices like turbochargers. This can make the engine feel more responsive when you press the gas pedal.
Company
Cosworth
Cosworth is a company that makes very powerful engines, especially for racing cars. They are famous for their work in motorsports and have helped many teams win races.
Term
turbocharger
A turbocharger is a part that helps an engine get more air, which lets it burn more fuel and create more power. This makes the car faster and more efficient than engines that don't have one.
Car
Volkswagen GTI
The Volkswagen GTI is a fun and sporty car that many people enjoy driving. The Mk7 is one of its newer versions, known for being fast and easy to handle.
Car
Audi 5000
The Audi 5000 is a car that was made by the German company Audi. It was popular in the 1980s and was known for being very aerodynamic, which helped it perform better and save fuel.
Car
Audi 100
Car
Ford Taurus
Car
Ford Cortina
The Ford Cortina is a car that was made by Ford, especially popular in the UK. It was known for being a good family car during the 1960s and 70s.
Term
aerodynamic car
An aerodynamic car is built to cut through the air easily, which helps it go faster and use less fuel. It's like how a streamlined shape helps a fish swim better in water.
Term
semi-trailing arm
A semi-trailing arm is a part of the car's suspension that helps the wheels move up and down smoothly while keeping the car stable. It helps with handling, especially when turning.
Term
rack and pinion steering
Rack and pinion steering is a system that helps you turn the car by turning the steering wheel. It makes the car easier to steer and helps it respond better when you turn.
Car
Ford XR4i
The Ford XR4i is a sportier version of a regular Ford car from the 1980s, designed to be more fun to drive. It has a distinctive look and was made for people who wanted a sportier experience.
Car
Ford Scorpio
The Ford Scorpio is a mid-sized car made by Ford that was popular in Europe. It was known for being comfortable and having some modern features for its era.
Car
Mercury Scorpio
The Mercury Scorpio is a car that was made by the Mercury brand, which was part of Ford. It was sold in the late 1980s and early 1990s and had a different design compared to other cars of that time.
Car
Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra
The Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra is a car that was made by the Oldsmobile brand. It was popular in the 1980s and was known for being a comfortable and roomy vehicle.
Car
Mercury Cougars
Car
Volkswagen Golf
Car
Ford Thunderbird
Car
Ford Mustang
Car
Ford Pinto
Car
Lotus Carlton
Car
Audi RS2
Car
BMW M5
Car
BMW F10
Car
Lancia Deltas
Car
Subaru WRX
Car
Lotus Amira
Car
Dodge Viper
Car
Porsche Panamera
Car
BMW 30 Csl
Car
Bmw M
Car
Volkswagen Jetta
Car
Hyundai Genesis
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I'm not saying the word. The whole episode? Yeah. Okay, well, this episode of the Carmage and Show, which you are currently consuming, containing one Jason Camisa, and me, Derek, Tam, Hyfe, and so on, is about, yes, clearly, is about the trio, sorry, a pair of Ford products that was available neither simultaneously in the same market ever, correct? They were never simultaneously sold correct. Yeah.
There's one or the other based on where you were, which is the Mercur XR4 Ti and the Ford Sierra, specifically, the RS cause worth variant, which obviously are very related aesthetically, but more than just the same car. Yes, except for various differences, which we will discuss on springs, bars, bushings, engine. Well, no, cylinder head, cylinder block is the displacement of the ball is different. It's the same car boost and the difference between
the stop is the difference between like a three series in an M3 is the difference between a Sierra and a CRR is cause worth. Okay, sure. Think about it. All right. So that's what's in this episode of the Carmage and Show. Part of the Haggery Podcast Network in which I will also do one clap. Nope. Jason will do one clap, and then we have a jingle. You're going to sing the jingle? No, no, no, no, it's a Jakes going to add it. Okay. Three, two,
one. Now just get now. Yes. So I think we should start this episode old-school style with a song. Oh, I'm not going to do it. Jason's singing. No, no, you're going to do this one. I want you to envision Stevie Wonder. Okay. Song that starts isn't she lovely?
Isn't she lit? There is a Beatrice. No, isn't she worn out? Isn't she fun to drive fun to drive high Beatrice? We should be nice to drive. So in the background for those of you listening is Beatrice, my E30 sedan, what's left of her? Mechanically almost perfect. Mechanically, almost perfect.
She's decided she would, she has requested a drive shaft. There's a distinct on the highway now. And at 187,000 miles, I think I can afford her a new drive shaft. Yeah, but kind of fallen down a couple flights of stairs, but she's here for a reason.
Nothing to do with this. The content of this episode. It was raining outside and I have very little time in the Fredestine. Fredestine, why did I say steam? Oh, God, I'm having a stroke. I smell toast grandma. Fredestine, all tracks it around, or those are, I'm sorry, those are sprints pluses in the rain. And I tried to slide, unable. It happens, but it takes a lot. It's not, they have so much, they
have an annoying amount of grip in the rain. They have an incredible amount of grip in the drive. We're going to do a tire update, because I've now, remember a couple months ago, Fredestine sent us a lot of metric shit ton of tires. And it's one thing to read and add. It's something else to actually experience the tires. So I'm glad they did that. I now have a lot of time in all of the tires, except for the summers on the eGolf. So I got to switch those on and then we can talk more about them.
So we're not going to do an ad for Fredestine. I'm going to tell you my real opinions, which is not like an ad, because I like that those tires exist, because it's a size that really needs to be served 15s is an underserved market. I just, it seemed like they were difficult to find in the United States. They started and stopped another back. Okay. Yeah, those are 195, 50, 15s. You need the 205, 555, 255, 555, 15s. I'm thinking of all sorts of sites. 205, 555, 15s, which are the same sizes as mine.
And those are an older sort of not super crazy high performance tire and the grip is just stupid. Yeah, they look. Period. They look period. They make great grip. They are quiet. I really, really quite, really quite like them. And the alternative in that side size is a Yokohama flea bag.
Oh, sorry, I must run out of that, which is a mild update on the S drive or S drive, because it's an S period drive, the of which I had 7,000.
And the the later in my run of S drives, the worse they all got and they're more out of balance. They all has the multiple. Yeah, must have been because the last ones. I mean, I bring them to the tire shop and they'd be like, yeah, we, we call tire rack, we replace them with four new ones, four other ones.
And they're all like an inch out of round, like there's just nothing we can do at this point. So I don't know the car driving down the street like that.
So these around that's number one, but also what a nice feature. Really good. Anyway, I brought that car because of the rain, but also because if I told you
that there was a front engine rear drive manual transmission for slash five seat coupe slash sedan from the 1980s that had struts up front and semi trailing arms in the back.
That was from Germany. That was from Germany. That was a 10 out of 10 chassis.
What would you expect it to be?
Maybe he'll be in W. E 30. It describes exactly an E 30. And out of the box, the E 30 is a lovely car to drive. They respond very well to modifications of which Miss Beatrice has many.
Full record. I did not name this car. I don't name my cars.
I only had one that had a name and it was provided by the previous owner. This is what happens. Yeah, everyone referred. I knew this car of one of my friend Casey owned it and she called her Beatrice. I don't even know where the hell that came from.
And so I just can't describe anything other than Beatrice or Beatrice says my friends call which gets confusing because I also have a hundred beat which is technically a rice rocket. I guess if you like it.
And it's a beat. And it's a beat. Anyway.
So last week, if the timing works on this episode, probably last week, I should have published a video on the Mercore XR4 Ti, which is a car that also matches the description.
That is a Star Wars character. That is a car that was sold by Detroit, but built in Germany.
And it was a twin to the Ford Sierra, which was a family sedan. The Mercore XR4 Ti was not among the most amazing cars I've ever driven.
But in that episode, we had a fear of Ford Sierra, Cosworth, RS Cosworth. And I think that might be the best chassis I've ever experienced in my life.
Really?
From a sedan.
So period reviews of that car, we'll go through a little bit on this of what XR4 Ti versus Hero.
But period reviews of the Sierra RS Cosworth and then specifically the RS500, which was the final 500 EVO models of this, again, homologation race car.
You know, you can 5,000 of the original spec and then 500.
So these cars raised against E30 M3s and 190 Cosworth.
That's shit out of everything, because they were turbocharged and...
What year was this that they did this? Let's see.
87 is when they started.
Isn't that when BMW won for the first time?
Yeah, well, 87 was British Turing car championship, which the Mercore XR4 Ti, bagged as a Sierra XR4 Ti.
Actually won the British Sloan car championship that year.
But the...
The Sierra Cosworth sort of had a big run and it wasn't until the RS500.
RS500 famously won almost every race and entered.
It was something like 85% of all races and entered.
And they just kept banning it because it was banning different characteristics of it.
And it just kept destroying everything.
The ultimate victor in the golden years of DTM.
You have the winning and storing car of all time, which is the E30 M3.
And second place is the 236 and third is the Sierra Cosworth RS500.
But the RS500 is the one that killed off the racing series because the cars were just...
Nothing could compete with it.
What year did that happen?
91, 2.
I thought Audi won in 98.
And Mercedes won in 92.
Mercedes was 92, so...
And towards the end, Sierra was in production from 78 to...
Oh, 82.
78 was when it started 82 for 17 years?
No, not 17 years.
I just did two revelations and so I have a script for Jeep XJ Cherokee in my head also,
because now you know that's the next revelations after that.
That was 17 years.
This one was 11 or 12.
Either way, long run cars did really, really well in racing.
I had the privilege of...
Cars and coffee and I stumbled across a left-hand drive black RS Cosworth.
And I was like, who's responsible for this?
And this lovely gentleman came over and we started talking and as it turns out,
a good friend of mine, a friend of yours also, had just bought a black Mercor XR4 Ti.
And I thought, oh my God, Google couldn't find a picture of an XR4 Ti together with an RS Cosworth.
And I thought this is a story that needs to be told,
and the fact that they're both black and available in the same geographic region
just forces me to tell the story.
The RS, I think, has shocks on it.
Possibly the best sedan steering I've ever felt in my life in terms of response off-center,
but talkative and dances in your hand and precise and delicious and weighted well and really fast steering.
But both of those cars, even the XR4 Ti on $45 per piece tires,
did this thing where you are 100% unquestionably at the center of gravity of the car
and the entire car just rotates perfectly around you,
which is a really weird sensation for a sedan that I didn't have that lot of expectations on.
Body control is the best.
The only way I can describe the body control in my car and all of this suspension tuning is modern Porsche.
The car just absolutely did exactly what you asked of it with no extraneous motions.
It felt like one piece where the front and rear did exactly the same thing at exactly the same time.
Also, again, rotating around you, did a couple of very small slides.
This car was purchased brand new by its current owner.
And so he's had it since 1987, and it means a lot to him,
and I was not going to have anything happen and put any sort of common sense.
But it is the car I've driven up the hill for revelations.
So the revelations end of the videos. There's always a drive.
I typically put the round trip drive from here to the end point where we turn around is 12 miles.
But the run we do is only really one or two.
And sometimes three, depending on where it is.
It's the car that I wanted to drive for eight hours after that.
I did actually keep going past where we normally turn around.
And then I had Anthony in the car, and he's like, you know, you missed your turn out.
And I'm like, no, I didn't.
I have to keep going.
No, I have to go places.
I must drive this.
And we had the XR40 I was sitting on the side of the road, so we had to go back and get it.
The car is one of those rare times where you go.
You're told by the media and by history books and everything that this car is amazing.
And they so rarely live up to that.
Holy shit.
Just in time for last week's tariffs episode because there's probably like six of them in the US
or something obscene like that.
I can't imagine what the RS500 is like.
Because it has another host of improvements.
But I would say we, I think we should talk about turbocharged sort of period cars
that are fucking way beyond our expectations or in one way or the other.
Beyond, beyond beneath, beyond beneath.
But this is possibly one of the biggest surprises possible.
It is one of the biggest, possibly the biggest surprise of any car that I've ever driven.
I was blown the fuck away.
My car had a naturally aspirated Cosworth engine in it and not a turbocharger on it.
I would be in the market for one right now.
Also, I don't like the way they look.
Kind of ugly.
You don't think so?
I don't mind it.
I prefer, I like the front and the side, the back does less for me.
The whole car is a little bit frumpy.
We had it parked outside and I don't think we have a picture of this next to a Mark VII GTI.
And it was Anthony Esposito who turned around.
He was like, oh my god.
Look at how frumpy it looks.
Because the back is kind of frumpy and don't be looking.
The back is pretty frumpy.
Next to the GTI.
This is a very arrow car though.
Very, extremely noteworthy how aerodynamic that car was.
Before the Audi 5,000 slash 100 came out and that car was even more aerodynamic.
But this is like, if you think about what else was being made at the time.
The cars looked like they were leftovers from the 60s.
This is the one of those cars that really changed the face of automotive design.
It's the U.S.
The U.S.
The Ford Taurus.
Exactly.
The Audi 5,000.
This was earlier but this was very much 190.
But the 190 was a very sort of conventional design, but a conventional angular design that was made to look formal but be aerodynamic.
This car just looked like a jelly bean.
One a ton of design awards.
Let's talk about the Sierra for a second.
Another car we don't think we ever got in the U.S. was the Cortina.
Correct.
That was a very strangely Ford of Europe is based in Germany but it really I think of it as more of a British car company than anything else.
I think that's because half of its sales are UK.
I think it's half.
Good portion of its sales are UK.
And the sort of the champions of those European forwards of the day are the Brits.
The Brits always talk about one Cortina, two Cortina, whatever.
We don't know what they are but they're family sedans.
In the UK sense so there would be a compact sedans for us.
It needs to be replaced towards the end of the 70s.
On going fuel crisis is ZZZ's, financial crisis is ZZ's, inflation, political unrest.
Just a miserable time.
Strikes.
Kind of like today.
Tariffs.
And so the replacement for the Cortina, the only one brief that management gave to Ford of Germany was responsible for the cars.
It must be the most aerodynamic car in production by Ford anywhere in the world.
That's it.
Anything else was fair game.
They stuck with sort of tried and true stuff struts up front, semi-trailing on rear which is sort of BMW style.
Front engine rear drive, rack and pinion steering, otherwise nothing.
It looks like a car that should be front wheel drive based on the package, the size and sort of form factor.
It's a car that today or honestly had that car come out five years later.
Probably would have been front wheel drive.
It had no sporting pretence whatsoever.
Ford made an XR4i model.
Was this Scorpio also rear wheel drive?
Yeah.
So you're talking about the second Mercore that was ever...
Yeah, and that was sold as what overseas?
That was the Ford...
Please hold.
I'm having another stroke.
Scorpio.
It was the Scorpio.
Oh, was it the Scorpio?
This is a trick question, isn't it?
You know, we did the whole lunch thing before this again and now I'm like, yeah, this is Scorpio.
The Mercore Scorpio...
So the Mercore was named...
Sierra couldn't be sold in the U.S. because GM in I.E.
Ultimobile had a trademark on the name Sierra.
C-I-E-R-A for the cutless Sierra.
Strangely enough, GMC also uses Sierra as for the trucks.
Yeah.
But Ford S-I-E-R-R-A wasn't going to work over here.
So it was not sold here.
As the Mercore...
Sierra.
But the Mercore Scorpio could be called the Scorpio here.
Because, I guess, only astrologists have a trademark on the name.
Anyway, Sierra had a sporty model called an XR4-I.
Strangely, there are two side profiles for the two door cars.
The two door series.
There's a one that has an extra C-pillar for no reason.
I did verify with Bob Lutz, who I talked to for quite a while in preparation for this episode.
It was just a styling thing.
Non-structural.
It was non-structural.
And it's weird because the pads cost.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Well, it might not because it makes the two pieces of glass much smaller.
So if you look at the side of this, the three door four lights Sierra.
So there's the four pieces of glass on the sides.
That rear window is like a foot longer than the front window.
And it's fucking weird looking.
If you look at the six light version of that car, the glass is smaller,
but then the pillars backwards and it's just bizarre.
Of course, it's bizarre looking.
But the XR4-I had a body kit on it, wheels, and the Ford Cologne V6 in it,
which was a 2.8-liter V6 that wasn't federalized for sale.
Couldn't be sold in the US.
And at the time, this is now 1982, the car goes in sale.
Lots who we know from coming up with, like some of the most amazing enthusiasts cars ever,
gets the job to run Ford of Europe.
And one of the first questions was, why is it that Mercedes Audi and BMW are making a killing
and Ford of Europe isn't profit wise?
And it came down to the US market.
So the dollar was very strong, so it was four marks for the dollar at the time.
And so they could sell these E30s and 201s and all these other cars to the US,
even in relatively small numbers, but make shit tons of money on them.
Ford of Europe was necessarily captive as Ford of Europe.
And so they were only selling cars in Europe.
Couldn't take advantage of that.
And so lots was given the instruction to increase profitability.
And he said, OK, fine, I'll do it.
And so his plan was to sell Ford of Europe products in the US.
But this was a really interesting hearing.
It's sort of how he explained it.
Which was basically like Ford of US always fucked up all the good stuff.
They would take it to the US and dealers would say, well, it's got to have crushed velvet.
And it's got to have wood paneling.
And it's got to be soft and squishy and drive like shit.
Or customers wouldn't accept that.
And of course, this resurgence, or this surgeon's, I guess, this emergency emergence.
Thank you.
The writer of the European sports sedan was just a counterculture movement
to the Americans, sort of things.
People actively didn't want mercury cougars and other big LEDs.
And so the stuff that was converted for sale in the US didn't work.
So let's come up with this really genius distinction that I go into in the video.
But he didn't want to make a Ford of US import program.
Ford US would have any say in any way they did with the Volkswagen Golf when it came here, for example.
That's a great example, right?
Because so VWA got to dictate what happened.
And so they built the Moon West, Moreland, Pennsylvania using Chrysler suppliers.
And they put fake wood applications on the inside and shitty seats and shitty interior plastics.
Soft in the suspension.
And everyone hated them.
Go figure.
Right.
And so his thought was, let's make this a Ford of Europe export program.
Here's a product.
Would you like it?
Yes or not?
Yes or no, right?
And so Ford of Europe retained control over that.
They started out with the XR4i, the sport model, with the extra pillar in it and the body kit.
And through in the turbo 2.3 liter from the, this was in the Cooper XR7, the Thunderbird TurboCoup and the Mustang SVO,
widely criticized for horrendous NVH in those cars.
So actually half of the engine was re-engineered.
Actually, internally it was the same.
But apparently all the vibration was coming from resonances and the intake manifold and the mounting brackets for the alternator and AC compressors.
So they've sort of redesigned all of them.
Sounds easy to fix.
Yeah, actually compared to some fundamental issues.
So yeah, they did this huge NVH thing on it to make it like competitive with BMW or Mercedes in terms of refinement.
It wasn't, but it was closer.
And that engine was already through the EPA certification, so they'd be able to sell in the US.
And they had no internal...
Was it the engine built in the US?
Engine was built in Brazil.
Obviously.
Right.
And so Ford of Europe did not have the ability to a-engineer the car for US crash and lighting or to then, to modify it for that or to build it.
So Lutz called Carmen, Carmen, and had Carmen do the work to actually modify the engineering work to modify the car and then build them.
So strangely, even though Ford of Europe is a German-based car company, none of the CRs were built in Germany.
They were built in Belgium and the UK.
And XR4 Ti, which is the version that came to the US, obviously, was built at Carmen.
And so they made some structural modifications.
Which final assembly not just bodies?
I think it was bodies.
Because the bodies were modified first.
But it wasn't that they do a full-car assembly like where they're finished cars rolling off the car behind?
Yeah.
So they didn't just make bodies and then send them elsewhere to be turned into cars.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, no, no.
No, the cars were built.
So the, you know, the Mercor badge says Ford, Vecca, Ford works, Cologne, Germany, and no.
Like it was actually built at Carmen in...
Not the Osnobluck facility.
They have another one...
I know.
Or whatever it is.
Another town in Germany.
The car gained 300 pounds in the process.
And a lot of it was...
Some of it was structural.
And then it was a lot of NVH work.
Because they realized that, you know, what works for Europeans?
Did you perceive a difference in NVH between the cars?
No.
No, but also, I think a lot of the structural upgrades that were put on to the XR4 Ti were then retroactively added to the...
C-R-C-R.
C-R-C-R.
Cosworth.
And I know the RS got even more structural enhancement.
So I don't know what...
Which body shell would you use?
But anyway, so to make sure that Ford of U.S. couldn't fuck the whole thing up,
Lutz's program included this sort of goal that these cars would be sold by independent dealers, which is really interesting.
So the goal was to go after...
But they just disregarded that ultimately?
Yeah.
But the goal was to go find franchises.
Small dealer franchises who were selling volvos, sobs, and or porches.
Those were where they identified.
To be like, yes.
Sob, launch of Volvo, Pujo, those types of weird dealers.
They would be then selling this as a relatively low volume sort of premium...
Premium German sports sedan.
Everyone called it a sedan.
It was only a two-door, but whatever.
And that, I think, was a genius plan.
This was effectively Lexus...
You know, Lexus accurate infinity before any of them had done this.
Yeah, dealer that also would sell Alphramaus, for sure.
Yes.
I can...
This is a vestige of an era that is bygone now, but there used to be all kinds of weird tie-ups
where the dealer would be like, we sell Lincoln Mercury, Mercedes, Pujo, and Dotson,
or something weird like that.
They still happen every once in a while.
When I lived outside of Pittsburgh, there was a dealer that sold Oldsmobile and Volkswagen's.
And then added Mazda at some point.
But this is, like, kind of gone now, because there's all the CI corporate identity requirements
where they're like, you have to have this font and this floor material
and the facade has to look like this.
You have this color with this finish.
Yeah, and like this is Lexus Pioneer, this, right?
There's these, like, brutalist 90s or late 80s, probably even when they started building them.
Lexus dealers and there's a handful of them that still exist.
Now there are all these big glass boxes, but there's, like, this sort of subculture of people
who like the old style Lexus dealers, because they had a very unique sort of sandstone brutalist facade.
Well, it's genius, right?
I mean, you want the experience from its tip to stern, or stem to stern to be completely different.
Different from Toyota.
Yes.
So ultimately because it was a Ford of Europe export program,
lots had no say in what happened once the cars arrived here, and he lost the battle.
He was trying very hard, but lost the battle and Ford gave this new brand of car called Mirko
to the Lincoln Mercury dealership.
I should also say, Mekko and German is Mercury.
So it's kind of a, it's a great name for those of us who speak German.
People who don't speak German look at it in Lyre like, Jake, what did you call it?
Merker?
Merker.
Yeah, Jake called it Merker.
No one had a pronounce it.
What does the registration card say?
M-E-R-K.
Okay.
So it is Z.
Okay.
From Mercedes.
And what does Mercury, M-E-R-C, presumably?
But it is its own brand.
It's not described as a Ford anywhere.
No, correct.
It's bad exclusively as a Merker.
I don't, there are four parts on it, obviously.
But yeah, no.
Yeah, I think the glass might have four logos on it and stuff like that, it should.
I think it said Merker.
On it.
Because the US class would be different, COT.
Either way, it was a great idea.
The car landed to such fucking unbelievably positive reviews
that it's like kind of tough to read at this point.
Because we all know, everyone looks at that car
and they're like, what a pile of shit.
That's the car's reputation now.
I got to say undeserved.
Like a sterling.
That was not undeserved.
Yes.
No, but they look at it the way they look at a sterling.
Yeah, A.
What the hell is it?
And B.
What the fuck is a Merker?
And then C.
What a heap.
And actually, the car, if you look at the original reviews,
wasn't quite a heap now.
I will say in terms of interior quality,
it's got nothing on an E30 or a 201.
So the three series in Mercedes 190, they were another league ahead.
The XR4 Ti did not undercut them in price tremendously.
It was just under the three series.
But for the price of a 318i,
which was a four cylinder natural.
Anemic.
Anemic.
Yeah, base, base, base three series that did 0 to 60
in 10, 8 or 11 seconds.
At least it was seconds.
I thought you were going to say something else in 12 minutes.
The XR4 Ti was 7 flat to 60,
which is faster than a Ferrari three away at the time.
Every successive press car got a little slower.
So I didn't quite want to ask,
Bob, that's like, hey, so how much did you cheat and how and why?
How much boost did you run on those fucking things?
But hey, I'm sure Ferrari was cheating too.
So it is what it is.
Where?
Was?
Shut up, Terry.
Sorry.
Car companies optimize for the performance.
In particular cars.
Anyway, it was a monster.
What you got in exchange for the lesser interior quality
was just crazy speed.
So American even when it's European.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, it should have had a five litre V8.
That was one of the, yeah, apparently lots fought against that.
Because that was, I don't know why,
but lots fought for the two three turbo.
And I suspect.
Well, it wouldn't have been an export if they did that.
It wouldn't have been, it would have been distinctly American.
Right.
And so, and remember, the most things trying to be putting,
this thing against sobs and volvos and pujos.
None of whom have pushrod five litre V8s.
Interesting.
And the other thing is, so apparently the final decision came in
that the four of Europe engineers couldn't get the front suspension
to work properly with all the weight of that iron V8.
So they went with a two three, which is the Pinto motor,
which is an iron head.
An iron head on an iron block in Jesus Christ.
But there you have it.
I mean, great performance.
Good looks if you like that sort of thing.
I mean, back in the day, it was just,
either people loved it or thought it was weird looking
with the biplane spoiler on the back.
Very, very different, very arrow.
Yeah.
Right.
In that era, for sure.
I mean, you start to see it with the fox body,
the early fox body with the rectangular recessed headlights.
Yep.
It's adjacent.
But that was a pretty sporty looking shape, I guess, for that era,
given what the, the Mustang was looking at.
And they were sold next to each other.
SV, Mustang SVO was sold to, I mean, at the same time as that.
So it is a little bit of duplication there.
You know, aesthetically.
Overlapped, aesthetically and performance wise.
They were both front-engine rear-drive manual transmission.
You can get an automatic in the, in the XR4 GI.
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Don't look at me.
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I don't think I've never touched one.
I would say don't not touch one.
That, so what a glowing review.
That XR40i.
Okay.
So, again, it's a friend of mine.
He doesn't usually listen to the podcast,
so I don't have to be that nice.
Okay.
It's good.
Specializes in the cars that are the least desirable cars on the planet
and then goes and buys the shittiest examples thereof.
Except, his name is Mike.
Mike has more revelations alumnuses as alumni than anyone else.
He's the only one in the world with an example
that still runs of X, Y, or Z.
Every time he buys another insert name of Shittbox,
I'm like, God, damn it, Mike.
I need to borrow that for revelations.
So it started out.
I think the first one we did was Fortora Show,
which was actually a beautiful car.
It was a really, really nice experience.
30-something thousand miles on it.
The world's most perfect VR6 carado.
I did on that one.
He sold those because they were both too nice.
He couldn't deal with them.
Then had what was a presentable Subaru XT,
which was the most fun I've ever had in revelations drive
because he basically, the harder I beat up a car,
the more he laughs.
And so I know this about him.
And I know he was like, wreck it.
It doesn't, I just don't care.
You have insurance on it.
Go for it.
And so I drove that thing up the hill at 14.7 tenths.
Stalking a metric.
Stalking a metric.
Yeah.
And one of the front shocks was so blown
that if you push down on the fender and went to lunch
and came back, it would still be bouncing.
And so it just wheel-hopped the whole way.
The whole way at the hill and the dashboard broke
like the vents fell out from the vibration.
We laughed our asses off.
And I think, so I think this is the fourth,
one of Mike's car.
I might be forgetting one.
But this car, one owner, really nice shape.
70,000 miles.
The two cars that we had in the studio both had 70,
they're within 50 units on the odometer
of each other.
But one of those car owners was nice.
But a really, really beautifully kept car
had one unfortunate thing.
The original owner apparently had gotten older
and forgot to set the brake and got out of the car
and it rolled down and hit a boat or something.
And so the spoiler was cracked.
But otherwise, the car needs a little bit of mechanical.
Couldn't even finish saying that with a straight face.
Typical Mike.
So he puts like $4 tires on the car,
which just makes the back road drive that much more enjoyable
because squealing tires at too tens of a G.
But also no brakes.
I mean pedal like all the way down
and right above the floor, they start working.
And so, and working is a strong word.
So I, of course, suggesting I did do the fault.
I thought, all right, if this is going to go,
I needed to go before we get on a mountain road.
And so right at the base of the road,
we turn the cameras on and immediately like,
okay, they work.
I'll do the mountain ride.
Oh my God.
At one point, I watched the turbo gauge.
It starts and then it goes red.
I think it was 12 o'clock.
And I watched it go right around all the way back to zero
as I'm coming off the throttle going,
oh fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
The knocking noise made.
I just kept thinking, oh my God,
I know these motors are good for 600 horsepower
and this thing just put out 450 for a split second.
The way skate's sticking on the car.
So I have to be very careful.
It does have noxenser.
And so you can hear it on the run up the mountain.
It was trying to cut timing.
It needs a little bit of help.
But it was quick.
It was nice.
It was a nice chassis and you could really feel the bones were great.
You know, really, really nice suspension geometry
and whatever.
That cause worth was
trans-fucking-sendant.
It was unbelievable.
You have to drive one.
Maybe I have to buy one to drive one.
You can't afford the import to do that.
Just go to Europe and buy one.
I mean, if anyone in the Bay Area has an RS500, please.
Please.
Don't bring it near me.
No, let there drive it.
I'm interested.
All I wanted to do was just spend three hours.
Sounds like a very good rally car.
Yeah.
As Rikaros in it.
Great brakes.
Fabulous power.
You know, lag.
Of course, a lot of lag.
Way more than the extra.
This is interesting.
So the XR4 Ti is the Pinto Motors.
They're both Pinto Motors.
2.3 liter,
8 valve single cam with a chain drive.
And an iron timing for the timing.
The Cosy, Cosworth did.
At the same time as they did the Mercedes 2.316 head.
So they were built together in the same factory cast together.
And so I'm sure they share a lot of similarities.
I did not look into this.
But belt driven,
double overhead cams.
With a 4 valve for cylinder, obviously.
And then an aluminium head.
That's the bottom end block.
The bottom end is ironable.
The bottom end is the same.
But it's destroaked.
It's reduced in displacement down to two liters for the Cosy.
So you would think the 2.3 liter versus a 2.0.
The 2.3 makes 170 horsepower.
And the 2.0 made 200.
Yeah, so it's using a lot more boost.
Not where other way around.
The Cosworth needed half the boost to make 30 more horsepower.
Which I found so interesting.
Eight pounds versus 15.
Because it flows at high revs.
Where the other one didn't.
So I thought, oh, well, half the boost.
It's going to have higher compression and be more live off boost.
No.
Really?
That Cosworth is.
Why?
You mad it?
Pull out in front of a trailer.
Pray to Jesus and hope.
And it won't move.
Really?
It is dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.
And then 3,500, it starts to wake.
With three grand, it starts to wake up.
And by 3,500, it's waking up.
And 4,000, it's ripping.
I don't remember where the red line was.
Whereas the 2,3 actually had some power off boost.
And then a big shove of torque.
And then it would fall off at higher revs.
And the Cosworth sounded way better.
Oh my god.
Magic.
Magic, magic, magic, magic.
Who knew?
Yeah.
Oh, apparently all the grids do.
Yes.
That car has almost no presence in the mindset of any American anywhere.
It doesn't exist.
Neither less than an intergralle.
Which is an okay, which is an interesting comparison.
I think we should talk about 80s into 90s, turbocharged four doors.
Four door heroes because there are other ones that are not okay.
Let's talk about the Lotus Carlton for a second.
Do we have to?
Don't want to.
Okay.
Well, we'll skip it.
No.
We need to.
Because that is one of those cars that I think is achingly great looking.
Beautiful is the wrong word.
But just fucking badass.
Sinister.
Yeah.
That sure.
One of the best colors ever made.
That sort of perial green.
Perial green.
The only color in which it was available.
Yeah.
Looks like it's black.
But in the sun, it kind of glows green.
Great looking car.
And, you know, dual overhead cam 24 valve, 3.6 liter straight six.
Straight six with six turbo's with lots of horsepower.
The six-speed stick.
Fastest it in the world.
Yeah.
All of the ingredients to be a hero.
To be parked in my garage.
Yeah.
Separate turbocharging.
Yeah.
Curb weight.
It was not that heavy.
I mean, Mr. I only even think about cars.
If it starts with a two.
Four or one.
Or a one.
26.99.
Be a dress over there.
She's lost a couple pounds in rust.
Clear coat.
Clear coat.
The car is no rust.
Clear coat.
Clear coat.
Yes.
Which, you know, reduces weight.
Which improves low end acceleration.
But increases drag drag.
Which dulls high end.
I really want to wrap that in DTM livery.
But I just love the fact that it is a.
I mean, it's a full speckey 30 suspension underneath.
I have the bars.
I have the bushings.
I have the reinforcement kits.
I have camber plates in that thing.
It is just an absolute ride.
The only thing I don't.
I got rid of this is a race springs.
It raised it to sport.
So it's drivable on the road.
The car is an absolute maniac.
Plus a 2.9 turn locked lock.
Which would you dynamically enjoy more between that and the Sierra?
With all of the mods that this has.
And it's a lot.
It is, I'm going to give that chassis a solid 8.6 out of 10.
I love its playfulness.
I love its ability to put power down.
But then break the back loose if you want it to and play.
The driving position is less than ideal for catching slides for driving.
And the factory steering is so woefully slow that you can't slide these cars around without breaking a finger or hitting a tree.
Sorry, I asked straightened.
I mean, he learned the hard way.
He poor thing.
But this is M539.
Restoration is my buddy straightened on YouTube.
The first time he took his E30 out in the rain, just hit a tree.
You just what you do.
So with all the mods on this car, it goes to an 8.6.
It's really, really good.
The Sierra, that one, again, I think it has shocks on it.
But that's a 9.9.
Woah.
Wow.
The best handling for an engine rear drive, anything I've ever driven.
Now, I did not, again, I didn't slide it around.
I did drive my cosworth, my 190 cosworth, right after that.
And my observations were, give me the Mercedes engine all day, every day, twice on Sundays, like just no contest.
The shifter on the Sierra was better, but the Mercedes is a dog leg.
So the dog leg comes to win.
Both cars have recarrows.
The ones in the Sierra were very close to the ones in my Volkswagen.
Super grippy, super supportive, amazing.
The ones in the Mercedes aren't somewhat useless.
Steering is quicker in the Sierra, not that much.
Mercedes steering is actually fairly quick, especially right off-center.
But it's a box.
And even though it's fantastic for a steering box, Sierra.
And the steering wheel is fairly large in diameter.
So even if it's a fast ratio, it's a lot of moving your arms, a lot of flailing.
A lot of flailing.
Chassis balance was better on the Mercedes.
The Mercedes does not understeer.
It just flat out refuses.
And its ability to transition from neutral to oversteer under throttle is unmatched in any sedan I've ever driven.
Thank you, no trailing arms.
Except for that C-126.
Which has the same suspension design.
No, no, no, no.
The Mercedes rear end is better.
But the overall oneness and lack of body roll and any sort of dive squat,
any extraneous motion.
And also the fact that you feel like you've stripped.
So if you get into a modern 17, like I came in, like a GT4 or something like that.
One of the most...
The thing that Porsche does better than anything else is have the car just disappear around you
and feel like a superhero suit that just fits so perfectly you fit or naked.
And extension on yourself.
Yeah.
Damn it.
It's...
Porsche's without question the best in the world at this.
And this the only way...
All I kept thinking is this is Porsche.
This is Porsche, this is Porsche.
And then Anthony Espizito got in and drove it for two miles on the way back.
And he was like, this feels like a Porsche.
A cog.
Great.
It's not just me.
Magic.
I don't...
I would love to slide it around some more.
I know that the cars were known for being assy, especially by more novice drivers
because semi trailing arms will rotate on a lift.
Yeah.
But I like that.
But just it even just seven, you know, seven tenths, three tenths, eight tenths.
That sort of sort of enthusiastic driving.
No contest.
The Sierra was amazing.
So...
Yeah.
Good to know.
Cosworth is a car.
The 190 W201 is a car much better.
Much better materials.
Much better built.
Way quieter.
Rides way better.
But as an experience,
if that thing was naturally aspirated,
I think that poor original owner of that RS Cosworth would have never seen that fucking thing again.
Sorry.
Claiming on the insurance,
I scratched the vent off.
It's in my garage.
If you ever need to see it, but it's mine now.
Yeah.
That was magic.
Okay.
Okay.
So Lotus Carlton.
Mm-hmm.
I tried to navigate us away from that again.
Out of ten.
Give it a one to ten rating.
Overall to drive.
Oh, God.
3.4.
Oh.
That's mean.
Your number is lower.
4.2.
4.2.
Is that where you ended up?
Yeah.
It's not that bad.
But it's not that great.
Fastest shit.
Really fast.
Pretty damn good steering,
if I remember correctly.
But...
Like, it's a hero.
It does what it says.
It's going to do...
I just didn't really like to be hustled at all.
I didn't feel confidence in the chassis.
I didn't feel like I knew it was going on,
or what it was going to do,
or that it wanted to go any faster.
I felt like if I asked it to go fast,
it was like, please no.
Like, let's not.
It wasn't...
Nothing was sort of doing what it was supposed to do,
or nothing was sort of coherent.
It was very incoherent.
Yeah.
Every control weight was different.
Yeah.
I will say that it was so great looking,
and so fucking fast.
Like, I did a fourth gear pull.
This is...
Yeah, it has insanely tall sixth gear.
Like, just unusably tall sixth gear.
You have to be going over like 75 or 80
to even get it into that gear.
But it's like 2,000 RPM at 80.
Yeah.
No, it's unusable.
But 90 or 100, I'm sure it's fabulous.
This was a function of...
It was effectively in a limitation.
There was only one part spin.
Yeah, it was one sixth speed transmission available
in the world that would handle that torque.
And it was the ZF unit from the C4 Corvette ZR1.
And then GM had two.
I think it was kind of reaching back in my memory banks on this.
I think Holden had two limited slip differentials
that could handle that torque.
And this was the shorter of the two ratios.
That's all there was.
So they would have had to go and make up a spoke
limited slip diff to get the correct ratios in this.
And that was out of the scale of the project.
And they just...
They used what they had.
Yeah.
But ultimately, the car is a straight line, absolute monster.
That's beautiful.
Period.
Where the RS was transcended.
Something else with an RS2 badge on it
that should have been terrible.
It was RS2.
Yeah.
It's not getting a nine point anything from me.
Yeah.
Chassis wise.
But it's where most outies are in the 0.3 to 3.2 range.
I'm...
I'm going to...
Dynamically, I'm going to give that car a solidy.
Like that.
Same.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was exactly the number I was thinking.
Yeah.
Turns...
Great series.
Exactly.
It stops.
It feels coherent.
It has a lot of suspension travel.
It doesn't...
It's unflappable.
It doesn't grade as you go faster.
That's one of my least favorite characteristics of a car
is when it starts to degrade dynamically as you go faster.
It's the difference between wanting to drive the car fast
and not and just saying, okay, we're going to cruise and that's it.
And that's where the enjoyable part of the envelope is for this car.
That's...
To me, the always the weird thing about Mercedes
because so often some Mercedes stuff just get better and better and better
and you're like, I'm at stoichiometric tense now.
14.7 seconds right now.
And the car is more fun and somehow better to drive than it was at 8.10.
Yes.
Because 8.10 you're like...
And it worked over and all this body roll and everyone's like, oh my God, it's going to flip.
We'll just throw it in the corner and slide around it.
And everyone assumes that that isn't there
and very few people are stupid enough to do what we do
which is to go check out that part of the envelope.
But as it turns out, there's a lot of good stuff there.
I don't want to go on another rally with that SEC.
It's coming, we're doing one.
I don't think I'm going to make it.
The large barge was inspired by you.
The large barge charge.
The large barge rally because I got...
This whole happened because I got out of my CSI.
And also because we brought the 560 SEC on the last one.
Well, what happened was I got...
I drive some of these cars so...
I mean, it's such a short drive, right?
The revelations video you're seeing me driving it,
that's the first time I'm pushing this car.
I mean, I drive six miles to not even...
I don't even think...
It's four miles from here to the sort of where we start filming.
And that's just warming up the car.
And then we turn the cameras on in the first two, three corners.
I figure out what the car is going to do.
We have maybe 12 corners to...
And by the end, it's steeper and tighter.
So I'm a little more comfortable sliding stuff around.
But you're watching in real time while I learn these cars.
And my 850, the CSI, I did not expect to do what it did on that road.
And so I bombed up that road for the episode.
And I have since not driven that car in anger like that again.
But I got out of the car.
I'm like, I want to go do this for five days in this car.
Which inspired them.
Let's get all of our big cars together.
What are you bringing on the large barge charge?
129.
Look at that large.
But it's heavy.
Where's curb weight?
I have given everyone a mandate that they should bring a vehicle
with a curb weight of at least 4,000 pounds if they own one.
So this should be the corpulent rally.
Yes.
Large barge charge.
4184 for my 850 CSI.
And I think that 129's around 4150.
Can we borrow your scales?
Yeah.
We want to have a way off one night at the house.
You're not going to want to bring them to this game.
We would have to have somebody who isn't rallying,
who's just driving up meat us there with them.
I might be able to drive you up.
If I drive up after whatever we can talk about logistically.
Yes.
If they fit, the scales are big.
If they fit in the CSI, I might be able to meet you guys up there.
But yeah.
I do love a porker that can dance.
A big fat car that can really move.
Do we have any other cars on our list of like sedan heroes
that you meet that can really dance?
Like a mother or a QP5.
I've never driven one hard.
You're kidding.
Oh, well, here you go.
Made a list.
Here's everything you need to know.
It was a Ferrari sedan.
Yeah.
Do the math.
Yeah.
Fucking magic.
Unlike the Tama 832.
Which was also allegedly.
I had a lot of fun in that car.
But not because it was good.
No, because it was front-wheel drive V8's stupid.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that was, that car was fun.
But sob 9000.
Not good.
Same thing.
Not fast, not particularly good.
And a good car, but not good at all.
Not dynamically fun or a car that drives on being hustled.
Right.
Which is true of both the Tama and the sob.
Another car that you mentioned.
You mentioned often that you don't like
because it gets less good as it goes faster.
Is it need 39 and 5?
Yeah.
That is a unpopular opinion.
Yeah, it is.
It's correct.
Yes.
Yep.
But yeah, most people.
I think the people who really like that car
are not driving it to as hard as it will, as fast as it will go.
And that's just, you know,
that's the kind of person who buys an M5 versus an M3.
If you want a car that's fun to drive as fast as it will go,
you get the M3.
I mean, if we think about it.
I did like the E28.
I thought the E28 got better as I went faster, actually.
I would agree with that only because it was such a non-event
and a normal sort of driving circumstance, it was just fine.
Yeah.
But it was a car that thrived and came into its own
and became interesting once you were hauling the mail.
And it's not that interesting of a car if you're not hauling the mail.
And I've never driven an E34 in anger.
Not at all.
I'm guessing it's similar to E28, E39.
And then next after that was E60.
I don't also don't love E60s to drive.
I like them, but they're heavy-handed.
Yeah.
And that car, the joy of it, is the engine and all of that stuff.
And there's different types of cars that are good at different types of things.
And this is a car that you want to just rip through the gears in.
And that makes it, I think, a bang.
And a car.
The E60 M5.
It makes it a bang instead of a marry.
Because a marry for me has to be a car that just thrives
and becomes joyful and exceptional when you're going, you know, really hauling.
I really, the reason I sort of going down the lineage is because I think we can agree.
E28 is nice.
E34 is probably similar.
E39.
Great car.
It doesn't love to be hustled.
E60 kind of same thing.
F10.
No.
Really don't want to hustle that car.
No, no, no.
You will spin it immediately.
Everyone spun it on the press car launches of those cars.
They were uncontrollable.
The first generation turbocharged.
BMW had yet, this is sort of the carlary of the F80 or F30 sort of chassis car that
just couldn't handle its own power.
And the current one is amazing dynamically.
But this is a car that's not interesting at all until you start pushing it.
It's just boring.
And then when you start to really push it, you look down at the speedometer and call it
increased to go repent.
It's bad.
You're always going, you know, these cars are really like, oh, I thought it was going 70
and I'm going 77, right?
The cars that are 10% faster every time I look down on a back road in that car.
I'm going 30 or 40 miles an hour faster than I thought.
And that's just not enjoyable for me.
And my license and my insurance premiums.
Yeah.
So.
Okay.
Are there other sedan-y turbocharged D stuff?
Did you have other stuff you came up with?
I have to think.
I don't know if it's a consults the list.
We talked about Audi products and the Carlton Delta Integrale.
We sort of glossed past.
Delta is an interesting one.
How do you feel about Delta's?
The thing about that car that makes it fun is how fast you can go in it and have it be able and happy to do it.
At normal speeds, it feels like a shitbox, the whole dashboard rattles.
It doesn't make good noises.
The shifter is not very good.
It just doesn't, it's not really an enjoyable experience for most use cases.
And even when you're going fast, it's fun by virtue of how fast it is and how capable it is.
But not the most playful or, yeah, of character.
Which is what you want if you're in a racing competition environment.
You want something that makes it easy to go fast because then it's less fatiguing and you can do it for longer periods.
There's more margin.
I feel like the Delta is one of those other heroes.
Just sitting in that seat and looking at the gauge cluster is a magic walking around it or driving it.
It's an acoustic non-event.
I really don't care for how they sound.
It sounds like it revs to 3,000.
And it is a modern WRX.
Less modern.
I'm sorry.
It is the modern intercrawling.
I did have too much lunch.
And not enough caffeine.
Sorry, waiter.
It, yeah, WRX does the same thing where they're just kind of crappy cars, mostly, most generations.
And, you know, they sound like nothing at best and crap at worst.
And then you get on a back road and you just can't upset it.
No matter what you hit, no matter terrain-wise.
There's so much suspension travel, so much grip, so much ability to put power down,
which just gives you this confidence to go so insanely fast that's in disproportion to how much horsepower the car has.
Remember, we took the Lotus Amira on a road in...
Car Mell Valley road.
And we just bombed this road and the car was magic.
And we sent my bosses boss out in 06 Corvette and he had to turn around.
Because it was just scraping everywhere and miserable.
Two generations ago, WRX and STI were launched on that road in Super Ruchos, Wisely.
And I just remember looking down and the speed limit on that road,
because it's in Car Mell Valley road, Mexico, is no speed limit.
And I was routinely going, like, you know, most cars, you're managing everything.
And you're sort of 40 miles an hour to 40 to 50 miles an hour is kind of the fast as you can go.
It was like 60, 70, 80, 90 miles an hour between...
You know, you're squirting between corners and you're like,
oh, that looks really bump... I don't care.
And you just weird bridges and...
Like transitions between bridge and pavement.
We're like, that looks sketchy.
I think I told you when we were in the car at that time, I had a Viper to a 360 in front of me on one of these pavement seams that we had hit.
I did this road, like three or four times, probably 70 miles an hour, just went right over it.
And we were stuck behind this dickbag in a Viper who was holding all of us up.
And just driving slowly and he hit the car.
Overdriving the car and went into orbit and spun the thing.
Thank God didn't hit anything, which is the most important thing.
No one got hurt, he didn't hit anything, the car didn't get damaged.
But like, we were like, to this is 20 miles an hour, at least 20 miles an hour slower than we could do it without facing this thing.
And so I do appreciate that about Delta, it's the same way.
Like I never got one to be out of sorts no matter what I've done to him.
But I didn't also have that much joy.
Until they're modified to all hell and back.
Yes.
Then it's entertaining.
Then it's a little bit more entertaining.
But even with like a groupy exhaust that doesn't have a muffler,
and really, really sorted suspension, like it's good, but it's not fun.
Yeah, not fun.
Not in the way of an RS Cosworth.
Four-wheel drive, man.
That's it, we're done.
I think so.
For that era, if you're going to define the problem as sort of,
and this is of course cars we've driven, people will start supplying a whole bunch of cars that we've glossed over,
but it's because we didn't have not driven them.
I mean, I don't know how much there's left in there.
Like in terms of, you know, like mega hero sports sedans from that era.
For 80s and 90s.
If you're in turbocharged stuff, you can get to like a alpha Milano 75,
which I wanted to like it more than I did.
I wasn't sure why that car didn't do more for me.
I was really surprised.
Every time I want to love it, and I only like it.
But the measure is that you just get into a, you know, just a Rattie E30,
and they're just, they sound better.
The busos got all the reputation for sound.
I'm sorry, it's got nothing on even a stock M20.
There'll be a movie straight six of the RS, so just, that's just a non-starter for me.
I just still can't figure out why.
I mean, I guess you always say that it's the exhaust system design,
but I really like the way that the character of that engine when it's transversely installed.
When it's transverse, yeah.
Or in two and a half liter form and a GTV6 for whatever reason I think they sound better.
Yeah, that buso is amazing for its day for a V6,
but I don't think it holds up in the way that a VR6 does, or even an M20 does.
Nothing else, nobody.
Or have we just defined the Ford Sierra RS Cosworth as the ultimate best driving Radwood era,
like fatty getaway car?
I mean, I do love an E36 M3.
It's slightly too new, but I do enjoy that experience a lot.
And I would, but I would say out of the box chassis-wise, while the E36 is fantastic,
I don't think it's same league as RS.
I mean, maybe even an EVO, even like the three-liter and three-two later E36 M3s in Europe,
I don't think we're really good.
No, I don't.
You need to drive one, because I just don't understand how a company this many years ago
could basically emulate Porsche today.
And I'm like, I'm mid-enginened.
We're not talking about like, you know, a Panamera here, we're talking about it.
Fucking boxer, came in.
2,4.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, very, very, very drive.
Yeah.
And though, of course, watch the episode.
Yeah, watch the episode.
That was fun.
We had Bob Lutz interrupting me on the episode a couple of times.
Yeah.
So you just did a phone interview with him and recorded it.
Yeah, and I would have loved to have him on, but it was the...
I talked him the day before his 93rd birthday.
Wow.
It was sharp as a tack.
I mean, you know, if somehow wires got crossed between his...
me and his assistant.
His assistant thought I was calling about another piece that Haggardy's magazine was doing
on 50 years of three series.
Because, of course, Bob had his hand in the E-21, which was supposed to never have,
like, a kidney griller on it or something.
Like, typical BMW.
They fuck everything up.
He did 2002 Turbo.
He did 3.0 CSL.
He had his hand in E-21.
And he created BMW M.
Yeah.
This is...
Bob, so he thought we were going to be talking about, or he was told, we were going to be talking
about 50 years of three series.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Hold on.
That's my colleague.
I'm calling about XR4 Ti.
Oh, okay.
What do you want to know?
There was no research...
Contained on...
This is 40 years ago.
I need to go back.
Nope.
Fuck and remembered everything.
And just had no problem going, you know, just being fully honest.
Yeah.
He gave me a great anecdote about his experience in trying to buy...
Oh, was it...
Was there...
There was another hot Ford, was there?
There was another hot goddammit European car that was sold through US dealerships.
And it was GM.
He wanted a Corvere Monsa.
His future wife was pregnant.
And he wanted a Corvere Monsa.
That was the car he wanted.
And he lived in the Bay Area.
And he went to the Chevy dealer in Berkeley.
And they refused to sell him one.
They were like...
Fear of death?
No, they were like, let's get you in this like, you know, you need a Malibu.
Or you need...
I don't remember what car they were trying to get him in.
And he's like, no, no.
I don't think you understand.
Like, you know, I'm like Robert Anthony Lutz.
Like, you know, of course he was no one at that point, right, to this guy.
Like, this is...
I'm about to change the face of the automotive world.
And I've decided I want this particular car.
Fuck you.
I don't want a big American boat.
Like, they just wouldn't have it.
And he wound up going to a bunch of different dealers.
He said it was actually Walnut Creek, which was a tiny little town at the point.
They finally sold him the car that he wanted.
And he...
Did they not have it in stock?
Or what?
They wouldn't order it.
They wouldn't order it.
They wouldn't let him buy it.
They wouldn't have...
No, no, no.
You don't want that.
You want this.
And we've all been in dealerships where you come in and you say, look, I want a stick shift.
Like, I did this with a friend years ago.
Stick shift, Jetta, said Dan.
It doesn't matter what color it is.
It doesn't matter.
And they were trying to put him in a wagon TDI manual.
They were trying everything because they wanted to get rid of what was in stock rather than what he wanted.
And so we've all had this experience.
And it was great listening to Bob say, like, tell this whole thing.
That's the line that's in the revelations.
He was like, and it was this quintessential sales guy in, you know, a plaid suit and cheap pants.
And he just didn't understand why I wanted this.
Went for $10 a month more.
I could have this enormous thing that I didn't fucking want.
And he used that to set the stage for what happened with Mercor.
Because people were calling him and saying, like, I want this XR4TI.
But I'm not giving my money to this scumbag dealer.
Which is it?
Dillhole?
Dillhole?
Now I've never heard of that one.
No.
Okay.
Sure.
Dumbass.
Yeah.
It's really, really interesting that the public's opinion has really turned sour on XR4TI.
And really did.
I mean, including car driver putting it on the list of the most embarrassing award winners
in history and whatever else.
But really doesn't seem like the car was to blame.
It was the dealers.
Which just sourd the whole experience.
Same thing can be said of today's Hyundai Kia stuff.
I hear all the time.
You know, I went to go buy a Kia I had or Genesis.
I had a terrible experience.
Fuck those guys.
Not doing it.
Which is the shame.
Because cars are good.
So.
Yeah.
Cool story.
Great car to drive.
And very cool to have the two of them back-to-back.
Or, you know, back-to-back end in the studio together.
Yeah.
It's wild.
All right.
I would like to drive one.
Derek needs a Sierra RS Cosworth.
Someday, somehow.
We'll figure it out.
I'll pay 25%.
You can afford it.
Bye.
Bye.
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About this episode
Exploring the fascinating history of the Ford Sierra RS Cosworth and its American counterpart, the Merkur XR4Ti, Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott dive into the unique engineering and performance characteristics that set these cars apart. They discuss their experiences driving both models, highlighting the Sierra's superior handling and the XR4Ti's surprising capabilities. The episode also touches on the cultural impact of these vehicles, the challenges they faced in the U.S. market, and the legacy they left behind in the automotive world.
aerodynamic car
body control
center of gravity
Cosworth
drive shafts
DTM
Falken Tires
manual transmission
naturally aspirated
purchased brand new
Alfa Romeo Milano
Audi 100
Audi 5000
Audi RS2
BMW 3.0 CSL
BMW 3 Series
BMW 5 Series
BMW M3
BMW M5
BMW M Coupe (E36)
Chevrolet Corvette
Dodge Viper
Ford Cortina
Ford Mustang
Ford Pinto
Ford Scorpio Sedan
Ford Sierra 3 Doors
Ford Taurus
Ford Thunderbird
GMC Sierra EV
Hyundai Genesis
Jeep Cherokee
Lancia Delta
Lotus Carlton
Lotus Emira
Lucid Gravity
Mercury Cougar
Merkur XR4Ti
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Porsche Cayman
Porsche Panamera
Subaru WRX
Tesla Semi
Volkswagen e-Golf
Volkswagen Golf
Volkswagen Jetta
Original notes
The Ford Sierra RS Cosworth is best described as... Porsche-great. This week we’re doing a deep dive into Ford’s funky sedan of the 1980s: the Sierra, together with its American identical cousin, the Merkur XR4Ti.
In the early 1980s, Ford of Europe (and chairman Bob Lutz) was on a mission to get a piece of the export pie that was dominated by Mercedes, BMW, and Audi. The car they conjured up to do so, the Sierra, was a massive success in Europe.
When it eventually made it to the U.S., badged as a Merkur XR4Ti, Lutz's plan to sell the cars to yuppies via independent niche dealers was foiled, and the car was placed on Lincoln-Mercury dealer lots alongside big American barges and clueless salesmen, only to die a slow death.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the pond, the extra-spicy Ford Sierra RS Cosworth was born. In fact, the car was so sought-after (i.e. stolen) by British hooligans that insurance companies refused to cover them. And it was so fast it was repeatedly banned from racing, eventually effectively spelling the end for Group A racing.
Ford of Europe (headed up by Bob Lutz) was seeing the likes of BMW and Audi making a killing with their U.S. exports and Ford wanted in. The plan was to try something different, and rather than a Ford-branded import program where Sierras would be sold alongside LTDs, Cougars and other giant American sedans, Bob wanted to do a Ford of Europe export scheme where their new car could be sold alongside other European curios like Saabs and Volvos at independent dealers under a new brand name. They settled on Merkur (the German word for mercury – pronounced “maercoor”), but they also needed a new model name as Sierra was trademarked by Oldsmobile (think: Cutlass Ciera.) Ford used the “XR” prefix to denote a variety of upgraded model trims followed by a number which corresponded to the vehicle size – which is where XR4 comes from. Add abbreviations for “turbo” and “injection” and you’re off to the races!
Both the Merkur and Sierra RS Cosworth were powered by versions of Ford’s Pinto 4-cylinder motor. The Merkur engine could also be found in the USDM Mercury Cougar XR7, Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, and Mustang SVO. Across the pond however, the Sierra engine went to Cosworth to get an aluminum head with an extra cam. The results were clear: the XR4Ti’s motor needed 13 lbs of boost to pump out 175 hp, while the Cosworth version only needed 8 psi to make 200 hp.
But the Cosworth got a whole host of additional modifications beyond the engine, and the resulting package was so exceptional it wound up getting banned from racing repeatedly, until eventually the regs shut down the entire series. The chassis is so exceptional that Jason proclaims it the best sedan chassis he’s ever experienced – on the same level as a Porsche Cayman GT4. Transcendent. A 9.9/10. Where "Beatrice," his extensively modified E30, only managed a mid-8 (for the same reasons that caused Sreten at M539 Restoration to drive his into a tree). The likes of the Lotus Carlton didn’t even garner a 5 from either Carmudgeon. Honorable mentions go to the Maserati Quattroporte, C126 560SEC, and a handful of M products. We’ll even dive into every generation of M5 – E28 through G90.
Lastly, we’ll learn about 80s and 90s Lexus dealership brutalism, that “light” means window, our friend Mike’s transient collection of eclectic cars has graced the show at least 3 times (thanks, Mike!), superbly compliant AWD cars like the Delta Integrale and Subaru WRX are good but rarely fun, and Bob Lutz had to fight tooth and nail to get a Chevrolet dealership in NorCal to sell him a Corvair Monza.
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The Carmudgeon Show
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