Has The Porsche 911 Turbo Been a Worthy Flagship? — Carmudgeon w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 215
The Carmudgeon Show
Has The Porsche 911 Turbo Been a Worthy Flagship? — Carmudgeon w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 215
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Car
Porsche 911 Turbo
The Porsche 911 Turbo is a fast and powerful version of the Porsche 911, which is a famous sports car. It has a turbocharged engine that makes it quicker and more exciting to drive.
Car
Porsche Turbo
The Porsche Turbo is a special version of Porsche cars that uses a turbocharger to make the engine more powerful. It's famous for its speed and performance.
Concept
50 years of turbo
This means that it's been 50 years since turbo engines were first used in cars, which has changed how fast and efficient cars can be.
Company
Hagerty
Hagerty is a company that provides insurance specifically for classic cars. They understand the needs of car lovers and offer special policies for older or unique vehicles.
Term
agreed value insurance
Agreed value insurance means that you and the insurance company decide how much your car is worth, and if something happens to it, you'll get that agreed amount back.
Car
Volkswagen Scirocco
The Scirocco is a sporty car made by Volkswagen. It's known for being fun to drive and has a unique look that many people like.
Car
BMW E30
The E30 is a model of the BMW 3 Series, which is a popular compact car. It's known for being fun to drive and has a classic design that many people love.
Term
agreed value replacement cost insurance
This is a special type of car insurance where you and the insurance company agree on how much your car is worth. If your car gets damaged beyond repair, you get that agreed amount instead of a lower market value.
Company
Mobil 1
Mobil 1 is a brand of oil that helps keep car engines running smoothly. It's often used in fast cars because it works really well in tough conditions.
Car
Porsche 911 GT3
Term
naturally aspirated
Naturally aspirated means that the engine gets air from the atmosphere without any extra help from devices like turbochargers. This can make the car feel more responsive and connected to the driver.
Term
intercooler
An intercooler helps cool down the air that goes into the engine after it's been compressed by a turbo. Cooler air helps the engine perform better because it can burn more fuel efficiently.
Term
hybrid
A hybrid car uses both a regular engine and an electric motor. This helps the car save fuel and produce less pollution while still being powerful.
Term
generation
A generation is a version of a car model that comes out at a certain time. Each generation usually has improvements or changes compared to the last one.
Term
GT2
The GT2 is a super-fast version of the Porsche 911, built for racing and high performance. It has a stronger engine and is lighter than regular models, which helps it go faster.
Term
horsepower
Horsepower is a way to measure how powerful an engine is. More horsepower means the car can go faster or do more work.
Car
Dodge Viper
Term
Viper Green Metallic
Viper Green Metallic is a bright green color used on some sports cars. It's a flashy color that many people love because it makes the car look unique and exciting.
Car
Porsche 930
The Porsche 930 is a special version of the Porsche 911 that has a turbocharger. It was made from the mid-1970s to the late 1980s and is famous for being fast and having a unique look.
Car
Porsche 935
The Porsche 935 is a race car that was built from the Porsche 911. It was designed to be very fast and won many races in the late 1970s.
Term
Turbo Carrera
Turbo Carrera is a name used for a fast version of the Porsche 911. It shows that this car is one of the best in terms of performance.
Car
Porsche 356S
The Porsche 356 is an older sports car made by Porsche before the 911. It was known for being light and fun to drive, and it had different types of engines.
Term
push rod
A push rod is a metal rod that helps open and close the engine's valves. It connects the camshaft to the valves, allowing the engine to breathe properly.
Term
camshaft
A camshaft is a part of the engine that helps open and close the valves. It makes sure the engine gets air and fuel at the right time.
Term
roller bearings
Roller bearings are parts that help things move smoothly by reducing friction. They are used in many machines, including car engines, to make them work better.
Car
Porsche 904
The Porsche 904 is a racing car from the 1960s. It's known for being very light and fast, making it great for racing.
Concept
Carrera Panamericana
The Carrera Panamericana was a famous car race in Mexico that took place in the early 1950s. It was known for being very difficult and exciting, and it helped shape car racing as we know it today.
Car
Ford GT40
The GT40 is a famous race car made by Ford that won the Le Mans race several times in the 1960s.
Car
Porsche 917
Term
flat-12 engine
A flat-12 engine has 12 cylinders that are laid out flat, which helps the car be more stable and perform better. It's different from regular engines that have cylinders standing up.
Brand
McLaren
McLaren is a company that makes fast sports cars and has a strong presence in car racing, especially in Formula 1.
Brand
Lola
Lola is a company that makes racing cars and has been successful in many types of racing competitions.
Car
Bugatti Veyron
Car
Volkswagen Golf
Car
Porsche 928
Car
Mercedes-Benz SL
Car
Nissan Gtr
Car
Tesla Model
Car
Tesla Model S
Car
Lotus Elise
Car
Renault R5 Turbo
Car
Audi RS2
Car
Porsche 959
Car
Honda Accords
Car
Toyota Camry
Car
Honda Civic
Car
Toyota Corolla
Car
Saab9 Turbo
LIVE
Hello.
>> Hi.
>> Gutenag
depends on when they're listening to
this.
>> So hello is easier because we don't have
to decide. Hello.
>> Okay. This is the carajin show. I am
Derek Tam Scott. We are driven by
Hagerty. That is a Jason Kamiso. He's
also driven by Hagerty.
>> I'm not
>> Hagerty drives him.
>> Hagerty drives me.
>> Um
>> this episode of the Karen Show is about
the Porsche 911 Turbo which is
celebrating its 50th birthday.
Is it December 2nd?
>> Well, I no one knows the exact date. I
mean, somebody uh but no, 2025 is the
50th anniversary of the 911 Turbo. Uh I
was asked to do uh to take part in a
documentary on this. So, that launches
this week. If this episode doesn't air
on Monday, it's because we've held it a
day or two just to coincide with the
release of that video. Um just so we
have a a grand Porsche Turbo
celebration. Um,
>> this is definitely a celebration of the
turbo.
>> The the documentary is a celebration of
the 50 years of turbo.
>> This episode maybe is doing less
celebrating if we're honest.
>> It's explaining why
we prefer other variants. Yes. Besides
the turbo.
>> Exactly.
>> But that's a personal decision that you
should make on the basis of your
preferences and demographics.
>> You like to be wrong. Go. I'm just
kidding.
>> Right.
>> The world is made of plenty of flavors.
If you like vanilla and I like
chocolate,
why are you wrong? But hold on, never
mind. Clapping. Yeah, he's clapping at
my uh stupidity.
And we're going to start the episode
now.
Typical youths. Get off your phone,
Derek. We're recording. This podcast has
already started.
>> Is it? I'm uh It
>> has already started.
>> I was learning some important context.
Oh, you're doing research for this
episode.
>> Well, no sense.
>> 44 seconds of research.
>> You can continue to do that while I show
you the the uh t-shirt that I was
supposed to be wearing, but it's too
cold in here, so I have a so I have a
hoodie on instead.
>> Okay, Jason, tell us about your t-shirt.
>> It says jasonsme.com.
>> Are we going to uh talk about tires or
>> no anything like that?
>> We're talking about Hagerty and the
insurance products that it provides.
>> Yes. Uh because Hagerty is a car.
>> We're both subscribers to that. We are
members. Oh, there's a spider.
>> You want me to extinguish it?
>> Yep.
>> Derek is a murderer. You saw it here
first. Hagerty is a insurance company by
enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Um, and
>> is that going to go in my permanent
record?
>> Your Hagerty record. I don't think your
insurance company keeps track of how
many spiders you kill, but that was
fairly violent. If only you could be so
decisive when you clap as you sound of
one hand one hand destroying the life of
a poor innocent thing. Where did it come
from? Like has it been on this table the
whole time while you were doing this?
>> Okay. So you have a t-shirt.
>> I have a t-shirt.com.
>> Uh that's just to go to get a free
quote. Um Hagert's uh Hagerty does some
things many things differently than
other insurance companies. One of which
is uh and I think the most important
thing from my perspective is that uh the
this is agreed value insurance. Hagerty
calls it guaranteed value and that is
you engage in a conversation with your
insurance company at the time of writing
the insurance policy where you agree on
the car's value. Um so if anything
happens um that's what you're paid. It's
none of this BS if I can use that term
with um other car companies like you get
>> insurance companies
>> uh yeah other insurance companies.
Sorry. you get hit and the other guy's
insurance company's like, "Well, see
that nice Porsche Porsche back there?
We'll give you $5 for it." And you're
like, "Yeah, but it's actually worth
$6." And uh then you there's no
fighting. Uh and that to me as someone
who's had three big claims in 20
something years, 28 years, um on my cars
is very important to me because I had to
fight to keep the Shurocco. I did not
have to fight to keep the E30 when I hit
a deer in it because I had it uh
sufficiently insured. Um and then same
thing with the Rover. um which is
running. In fact, if this episode goes
live, when I think it will, there
>> is today December 1st.
>> Today might be December 2nd or 3rd. We
don't know at the time of recording. Uh
we may hold this episode. We may be a
day late to to
>> and perhaps even a dollar short
>> probably, but not if insured by Hagerty,
then we'd be a dollar ahead. Um no. Uh
>> not that Jason condones committing
insurance fraud.
>> Dollar ahead. No, I didn't say you stole
a dollar. You can make a dollar, I
guess. Yeah, I don't Do not get me fired
over this [ __ ] you bastard. Um,
uh, the Rover video is scheduled to go
live around now, too, where you get to
watch the Rover, uh, starting
>> turn over.
>> This is the car that would have been
totaled if I did not have agreed value
uh, replacement cost insurance on it.
And so, I'm very grateful to Hagerty for
that. So, they get the plug. And if you
go to jasonzmi.com, you get a free quote
anyway. Um,
>> and it gets attributed to Jason.
>> Yeah. And I can point to my boss and be
say, "Look, look at what I did."
>> Yep. I'm selling insurance.
>> I'm selling I'm No, I'm not. I'm not
licensed to sell. That's right. You're
not an engineer. I'm not insurance.
You're referring people.
>> Referral. I think it's technically a
referral code. Whatever. I don't care
either way. Go to hagerty.com/
>> Well, I'm selling used cars.
>> You actually, but I do sell used cars.
Yes. I'm not licensed to do I'm not even
licensed to drive anymore, but luckily
no one know.
>> Never mind. Um I did get quite a ticket
filming the uh the episode that we're
talking about today.
>> Um because
>> a performance award.
>> I thought a performance award. That's
not exactly how the police officer
described it, but I thought I was in a
zone of speed that was much larger than
I was and I was doing way beyond that.
And so when he said, "Do you know how
fast you're going?" I'm like, "Pretty
good idea." And he's and I'm thinking
like, "Why is this guy so mad?" And
turns out I was in a 35, not a 55.
>> And the speed that I was doing was far
in excess of 55, but it was sort of, you
know, reasonably speeding. Not so much
when it's a 35.
>> Huh.
>> Oh god. So, how'd that go?
>> Um, I'll be getting a lawyer. Um,
anyway, we should be sponsored by
somebody who does those like some like
ambulance
>> ticket fighters.
>> Ticketfighter.com or some uh whatever.
Oh, we'll we'll see. Um, more
importantly, I was out in Nevada filming
a special on 50 years of the Porsche 911
Turbo.
>> Has it been 50 years already? It feels
like just yesterday
>> in 197
to 2025. Um, 50 years. I was I'm a
little bit worried that the audience is
going to receive this and make it as a
paid piece by Porsche. And so I'm going
to say right off the bat, Porsche did
not pay me a scent. I was asked to do
this. Uh this is Hagerty video in
concert with Mobile One.
>> Were you that complimentary that people
might confuse you for having been paid?
I thought you didn't like those cars.
>> I don't like those cars, but that's not
part of that's not part of the story.
The story is let's talk about this mark
that has made it by 50 years, right? And
so, you know, my thought I wrote my
segments. I wrote the and the voiceover
that I did. So, I'm the I'm the sort of
I'm the intro and then I'm the narrator
throughout throughout the piece. Um, and
I don't really say anything I disagree
with. Looking back on it, maybe would
have phrased some one thing. I called it
the pinnacle of the 911 lineup. The
script that I wrote was actually the
pinnacle of the regular 911 lineup. Um,
>> that's
>> well, that's how it's product. It's
positioned product planning wise. It's
the peak of it. I would call the GT cars
the the pinnacle of the lineup. In fact,
Porsche technically would call the GT2.
I would say no, it's the naturally
aspirated GT3 that is actually the the
high point, but that's my personal
my personal opinion. Um,
>> you could also easily do this by looking
at the price tag.
>> That's exactly. Yeah, but either way,
um, no, I was asked to do sort of
celebration piece of this. No problem at
all. I get, you know, I hadn't driven I
drove one 930. We've talked about this
uh before once very briefly. hated it.
Um,
>> really? Which one?
>> Uh, the one that we were on a rally
with. It was
>> Oh, the gray one.
>> I don't know. Dark gray. It was Yes, it
was an early uh Intercool 3.3.
>> Yeah. Uh, this one was uh So, anyway, so
more importantly, I thought, yeah, I'm
happy I'm always happy to do research,
happy to delve in. And so, I researched
obviously the sort of entire lineage of
the 911 Turbo and I narrated this video.
Henry Catfalls in the video. He did a
phenomenal job. We gave him like two
pieces of information and he went off
and did a review, a very quicky sort of
review of the 992.2 Turbo S, which is
the new one with electric turbos that's
now a hybrid. Um, that's and we we hit
every generation. So 930, which is the
original
>> 964, 993, 96, 97, 91, 92. Um, so
um, it was fun. It was fun. Um, it's a
40inutish video. It's in final edit now.
Um, kind of an interesting,
>> it should be live around the same time.
>> Should be live around the So, if this
episode's a day late, that's we've held
it for a day or two just to coincide.
Uh, Pat Long, Patrick Long was in the
video. He talked about car. Jeff Wart
was in a couple se sections um segments.
Um, and we got some um pretty cool cars.
Not we, I did nothing to do with it, but
the the other the production company got
some pretty cool cars in there like GT2s
and stuff like that. Um, so yeah. So, I
think we should talk about 9 911 turbo.
We put
>> which this is not
>> that is not um but it is air 911
>> by choice.
>> Look right into that camera and tell
them why you chose to have the inferior
car.
>> Uh I chose the superior car cuz I like
throttle response and compression.
>> Yeah, I've owned a turbo. I've owned a
911 turbo before.
>> I think you've bitched uh mentioned that
car
>> before. Yes, I have.
>> So, all right. The So, have you driven?
So, the I the car that we open the intro
open the episode in I had a 992.1
911 Turbo S 50th anniversary edition.
Um, but really the car that we open the
story with is a 1975 930. So, this is a
3 L
>> correct
>> 6 and 12 to one compression,
>> right?
>> Um, 260 horse.
>> No intercooler.
>> No intercooler. So, was it a US or non-
US car?
>> I don't know. How do I tell? It was
gorgeous.
>> Uh, yeah, I can tell you if you show me
a picture of it.
>> Uh, I will. My phone's over there. I It
was so pretty.
>> Yeah, you had Viper green metallic.
>> Oh my god. I mean, it was just like I'm
not I did while you were in the bathroom
earlier, I was taking pictures of your
car back here. I There's something about
the 911 shape that just
probably because the Volkswagen Beetle
is my first love and it's the same basic
shape.
>> Mhm. Don't Don't get mad at me. Um, but
that flared out green thing with the
[ __ ] hips and the turbo bad, the
inverse sticker on it that says turbo if
you cross your eyes.
>> Oh my god.
>> Um, and then I absolutely hated driving
it.
>> Yeah, they're miserable.
>> Okay, moving on. Uh, I'm kidding. Uh,
>> well, this has been a short episode of
the car show. Thank you for joining us
this week. the the 7 and 12 to1 3.3 L
intercool car that I drove
>> 7 to1
>> 7 to1
>> 7 to1
>> um was beyond dead off boost
>> this one actually wasn't as bad as that
one was it was make no mistake miserable
and we make a big long we have sort of a
a big long section kind of dramatized
section where I'm floored for about four
minutes giving a whole speech I'm like
yeah still floored blah blah blah blah
blah um because the lag is genuinely
atrocious. And the power the power band
is small. So you nothing nothing
genuinely holy [ __ ] fast and then shift
and then for for a split second cuz then
immediately red line shift and then
you're waiting again longer and longer
and longer and it goes again. Um but
this one wasn't as bad as the other one.
>> Have you driven a three liter?
>> Mhm.
>> Is that the one you owned?
>> No, I owned a 33.
>> Okay. Um and which the 3 liters are
worse? They all suck. I don't know which
one is worse.
>> There it is. It's been brewing for like
10 minutes. That sneeze. Um
I the the I think that the the three O's
are worse.
>> It could just be variation car to car
now that they're 50 years old as we're
>> observing, celebrating.
>> Uh but yeah, I find them to be all
pretty offensive.
>> I Oh no, I still have to sneeze again.
Did you like spray like pepper in this
in the studio or something?
>> Okay. So,
>> am I allergic to allergic to turbos?
>> Yeah, that we already know you're
allergic to turbos. Do we want to start
with some context about where this car
came from or do you want to talk about
um
>> I don't know how how encompassing would
we like to be with this?
>> Let's talk about it. I mean, you have
very strong opinions about turbos. I
have very strong opinions about turbos.
>> They work well in racing.
>> They certainly worked well. And so the
racing version of the 930 was the 935
which had a slightly different body on
it, but that was a
>> Yeah, the 9 So there was a turbo. Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Let's back up. Let's back up and and
start with So the name Carrera is a name
that Porsche started using in the 1950s
for their highest performing cars. And
they kind of saved the name Carrera for
their most exciting cars until 1984 when
it became the base model. So now we
think of Carrera as being synonymous
with the base model 911. That was not
true for ages and ages. And so what used
to be Carrera RS is what is now GT3
effectively. And so that lineage goes
directly from Carrera RS to 996 GT3.
Three generations of Carrera RS, the the
original one, the 964, the 993, and then
became the GT3. Uh so the name Carrera
used to mean something. And so the
original Turbo was called the Turbo
Carrera for that reason because they
wanted to indicate that it was the
highest performance car. Uh the first
Carrera 911, there was really only one
Carrera 911, which was the RS in 73,
came out in Paris in October of ' 72.
And uh that was the first time they had
used the Carrera name since they stopped
making the 4 cam 356s. So normally 356s
are single cam push rod motors and there
was a 4 cam racing engine.
>> Well, single cam to 2 cam, right? If you
can't call them single cam and then four
cam. So it's one cam per bank or Oh no,
hold on. You mean push rod?
>> Yes.
>> One total cam shaft, not one overhead.
Okay.
>> Yes.
>> Sorry.
>> Yes. So your choice in a 356, you get
one cam or four cams. Uh and this thing
was super sophisticated and it was gear
driven and like you know roller bearings
and just they cost $200,000 to rebuild
them because there's so many damn moving
parts and everything's gear driven and
bevel this and all that happy hor. But
incredible um specific output which was
the goal. So in a 2 L car you could get
200 horsepower. And this car engine was
available in the 356 and a whole bunch
of other race cars too like the the 904
for example. Um and so Carrera name
reappears for the first time on a 911 in
1973. And the reason why they did that
was in order to go racing. Uh
>> which of course is the origin of the
name Carrera.
>> Yes. Carrera means race in uh Spanish.
And uh and it was named after the
Carrera Panameana, the race in Mexico.
Uh and so uh this is fair. We've talked
about this before, but basically the N
Porsche spent a long time trying to win
Lemal and couldn't because they were
running with 3 L flat 8s. And this was
at the same time that the GT40 is
running with 7 L. And for an event like
Leal, they just couldn't get the power
for long enough to for the engines to
sustain the level of power output
necessary for them to go fast enough to
win at least also fast track. Uh and so
a an outright win at Le had eluded them.
So they did a clean sheet design. Ferdan
Pekk, you know, spent all the money in
order to show the world uh what Porsche
could do. Porsche was good at giant
beating but not good enough to do it
with a 3 L car against 7 L cars at Lal,
which is fast. So, they do a clean sheet
car. That's the 917. It's a first
12cylinder Porsche. It's um maybe the
only 12-cylinder Porsche. Uh it's a
horizontally opposed air cooled flat 12.
Uh it's 4 1/2 L initially and uh they
had some reliability issues initially,
but then they won them all in 70 and 71
before the car was outlawed. Uh the
regulations limited uh to I think it was
3 L for 72 and onward. So, they spent
all this money. They did win the mom,
but then the car was illegal after two
seasons and ferry Porsche was very cheap
and his nephew Ferdinand Pek had spent
all this money and then they end up with
this like white elephant thing where
they're like, "What do we do with this?"
So the answer was twofold. One first
fold the first thing was to m make a car
that could race that was much cheaper
based on existing ingredients and that
was what the Carrera RS was. And then
the other thing that they did was there
was this format called Can-Am in the
United States that had been it was
basically an open unstructured no
restrictions type of racing. The the
bodywork there had to be se two seats
and the bodywork had to be enclosed but
other than that there were no
restrictions on aerodynamics or engine
displacement or power output or any of
that. Uh and so initially they were the
races were dominated by Lola and McLaren
mostly running big Chevy engines like
aluminum seven liter seven or eight
liter engines. Uh and then Porsche said
okay we have this 917 thing uh since
it's an unrestricted category unlike
endurance racing in Europe we can run
whatever we want in it. And so they put
turbochargers on the 917 uh
>> flat 12
>> on the flat 12 on the 12cylinder 917.
And so the cars which had previously
been running with five or 600 horsepower
naturally aspirated uh and were deeply
uncompetitive because the 8 liter Chevy
engines made much more than that like
900 horsepower. Uh and the these cars by
the way weigh like 2,000 lb. Um so the
turbochargers uh made the 917 have real
horsepower. Um I think it was like 11 12
13400 horsepower maybe even more in
qualifying trim. Uh, and they strapped
drivers to them like Mark Donahghue. Uh,
and
>> let's be clear.
>> Yes, it felt like on whatever. Yeah.
>> Uh, and so Porsche has now started using
turbocharging. And then at the same
time, the RS, which was previously
naturally aspirated, they started
running those with turbochargers also,
which was called the the RSR, which is
the racing version of the RS. uh they
had a a displacement adjustment factor
which would basically say if you ran
force induction then you got less
cylinder displacement and so those were
2.14
uh L with a turbocharger which with
their multiplier made it be 3 L
equivalent naturally aspirated. So
Porsche starts running turbochargers in
the early '7s in both the like 911 based
cars and these outlandish Can-Am cars.
Uh and Porsche absolutely dominated
CANAM in 7273. So that was good. They
got two more racing seasons year
>> revenge of PA
>> out of uh the 917 after it was no longer
allowed to do you know leal and
endurance racing which was much more
structured especially after from 72
>> onward. So uh then in order to keep
racing these cars they had to u build a
road car that was turbocharged um based
on the GT rules. uh and enter the 930.
Uh so the 930 was a turbocharged 911
that in
it didn't really replace the Carrera RS.
It was a very different type of car
>> in terms of racing effort. I guess one
could say it did, but certainly not in
personality.
>> Yes. And not in terms of the the
character of the car or the way they
were trimmed. The RS because they were
trying to build naturally aspirated.
They were not trying they were building
naturally aspirated cars and so they
were really concerned about reducing
weight.
Uh, and so that there was a very
stripped down GT3ish ethos to the
Carrera RS. Uh, and the 930 was a luxury
car in the sense that they came standard
with rear windshield wipers and
headlight washers and sunroofs and, you
know, full leather trim and air
conditioning and all that stuff. It was
like a It was almost like a
Mercedesification or like a GTification
of the 911 in a way that was very
opposite to the Carrera RS. Uh but the
performance was very different from a
Mercedes because the cars made a lot of
power
>> in a straight line.
>> In a straight line. So when I did the
research on this, 1975 was the first
year of full emissions regs in the US.
um car and driver tested a 930 and it
did 0 to 60 in 4.9 seconds and the next
closest car to that was I think it was
77 so it's 3 seconds longer think about
that I mean this wasn't just holy [ __ ]
fast this was Bugatti Veyron fast when
compared to everything else on the road
>> um now we couldn't get there were some
Euro cars that we couldn't get in 1975
for example like you know
es and boxers and Aston Martin.
>> You'll often read that the 930 was the
fastest car in in the world. It was not.
It was the probably the quickest
accelerating car in the world. Certainly
in the US. Um it was one it was the
fastest car you could buy 156 mph top
speed. Fastest car in America cuz we
couldn't have a Countach which did 170
something.
>> And the Daytona also did
>> 170 something but it disappeared after
73
>> in the US. Um
>> and elsewhere.
>> And elsewhere. Yeah.
>> And we didn't get its replacement. The
replacement was the boxer and that was
Euro only.
>> Um, so when you say fast,
>> yes.
>> I mean, three seconds quicker to 60 than
the next closest.
>> When it's on boost, it's unreal how fast
it is. And when it's off boost, it it's
unreal how slow it is.
>> To this day, I mean, so I had Anthony
Espazito in the car for me for one of
the one of the things and I he you know,
he asked me before we got in the car,
"What do you think?" I'm like, "You will
not believe." Now, Anthony has a GTI, a
Mark 7 GTI. Um he's had plenty he's
driven everything really really fast and
I'm like it is faster than your GTI and
he just gave me a look like [ __ ]
like you know stop exaggerating Kamisa.
Um so we're kind of driving around and I
finally let it get full boost in
probably second gear whatever it was and
he just loud out holy [ __ ] it is
exclaim out loud fast it is when it's on
boost
>> GTI quick or modern GTI quick or more.
Yeah wow fast. Yeah. Boost starts at
3500
>> and it's a four-speed and the gear
ratios are very wide.
>> Really widely spaced.
>> Yeah. And so if they were able to get
49, you you bet your bottom dollar that
was a redline clutch dump.
>> That was probably a redline clutch slip
because you can't let the revs drop. You
slip it to maintain boost to make sure
you stay above 4,000 RPM the entire
time.
>> Incredibly abusive. I would have never
done that. But when we we were filming,
the camera car would move out and you'd
hear on the radio you Anthony on the
radio. All right, we're moving out.
Crying. All right, come on. Pass us. And
he was like, "Pass us, Jason. Pass us,
Jason. Jason, Jason." And he thought I
wasn't paying attention. And our radios
are set up that we can't both talk at
the same time. And I'm waiting. I'm
waiting. And finally, I'm like, "I've
been floored since before you started
moving." Like, I saw they were about to
move out. And it's just
we were at a little bit couple thousand
feet of elevation. I think nothing two
or three,000 feet, but it was staggering
how long it took for that thing to
respond. And then once it did, like we
said, genuinely fast. Um,
>> all hell breaks loose. And the trick
that the race car drivers would use is
to um keep your left foot brake and keep
your foot on the throttle to maintain
the turbo speed. Uh, but that doesn't
work in the road cars. I've tried.
>> It does. Oh, I did. I mean, I had to do
it because he, you know, Anthony would
be
>> Yeah. It doesn't make it go fast. Like
on a race car, you'll actually go fast
if you do that.
>> Well, yeah. Filming is a strange thing
because, you know, we're coming around a
corner. He's sort of looking at the
camera waiting for the the horizon to
become and then all of a sudden he needs
me to blow by and so I'm sort of hiding
out of range and I need to be able to
move when he said so I would drag brakes
at full throttle and just and then let
it go and the car would take off. But um
a challenge a challenging car to drive
quickly. If you are able to stay in the
boost, it's magic. But if you can't, you
can gear
>> on Yeah. On a racetrack though, if you
have properly chosen gear ratios on the
right racetrack, it's unmatched how fast
those cars are. But, uh, if you don't
have those things at your disposal, if
you can't do that, then it's in the real
world, it's an extremely frustrating car
to drive.
I I would venture to say having not
driven them back toback a regular
Carrera which so the turbo is 100 260
horsepower and a regular Carrera regular
the Carrera was 160 uh in 1975 according
to Car and Driver anyway. So 100
horsepower difference between them. I
would venture to say that the NA car was
marketkedly quicker in the real world
than the turbo car was.
>> Um but
>> big huge flared rear rear end wheel
>> front end too.
>> Yep.
>> Wow. I mean, I I didn't look visually. I
mean,
>> yeah, the front end is wider and the
rear end.
>> Car is stunning. Um, plus plaid seats,
which, you know, makes me happy in this
particular car.
>> Um, yeah, I did not the the only one
thing that stood out to me that was
amazing were the brakes and apparently
this early car has like
>> you have the alloy S calipers.
>> Mhm.
>> Which are they upgraded?
>> They upgraded later. I They were
unbelievable. Like this car stopped on a
dime. the the amount of additional brake
force that you would get on a just rock
hard pedal. The bra they felt amazing.
They un truly unbelievable.
>> Every torsion bar 911 is like this.
They're really easy to modulate. They're
firm and they feel wooden, but there's a
direct linearity between how much force
you apply and how much retardation you
get. They're extremely great for for
modulation
>> threshold break. Yeah, it was un truly
unbelievable. the rest of the car. I
have a hard time with 911s. And so you
this is you speak this language. You
drive these cars regularly. The the
bottom hinge pedals give a, you know, a
distinct arc. That's kind of
>> I don't even notice it. Everyone
complains about it. I don't
>> It's not a complaint for me, but it's
definitely a like you meet someone who's
got a really really thick Scottish
accent or some, you know, thick accent
of any sort and it takes a second for
you to start to map out what what their
vowels sound and how like try to
understand them. I feel that way every
time I get an aircooled car. The driving
position is weird. The the pedals are
weird. The controls are weird. The
shifters are all terrible. Um terrible
is the wrong word.
>> Until 1987,
>> right? They just All of these aircooled
cars speak a language that I'm not
fluent in and always take me a long
minute
>> to get used to. And what I thought was
this 1975
um Porsche, if I got into a 1975 Golf by
comparison, I think I would have an
easier time in the Golf. Now, I'm
familiar with a Mark 1 Volkswagen.
There's But there's the Golf felt 15
years newer.
>> It is.
>> It is. Yes.
>> Um it felt like an old old an old car in
1975 already.
>> Yes. I mean, when the So that
transmission, which is I don't know if
it's an improvement over the 901. The
901 was the first 5-speed Porsche
gearbox. It's a dog leg. This was the
915, which came out in '72, which is not
a dog leg. And I remember reading like
articles about the Carrera from 197475.
And they were complaining about the
transmission being old-fashioned then.
And then, don't worry, they kept it in
production for another dozen years uh
until 1986 was the last year you could
get that transmission. Uh it's a vague
shifter that has no centering in the 34
axis. So, good luck finding a gear. Um,
and every one of them is different as
the bushings wear, so that's also
festive, I guess. Um,
uh, so, and they're not super durable
gearboxes either, which is why the
turbos have four speeds and not five is
because the 5-speed gearbox was not up
to the challenge. So, all that was
rectified with the the new G50 gearbox
that they introduced in 1987 for the
Carrera, and it wasn't only it wasn't
available in the 930 until ' 89,
>> right?
>> Which helps. You have more
>> closer space.
gear ratios. It makes a big difference.
Like I think that the car crosses when
it goes from a four-speed to a 5-speed,
it crosses crosses the threshold from
like unusably frustrating to tolerable.
Um, when you put the 5-speed, it still
has the same character, but there's just
the the thing that's most objectionable
about these four-speed cars is there are
certain situations where you're like, I
would like to get over there as quickly
as possible, or I would like to move out
now, and the car is just like, that's
not available. You can't do it. There's
no gear you can choose that will give
you that outcome. So, you must wait,
>> right?
>> And that's extremely frustrating for
someone who likes, you know, a
responsive naturally aspirated.
>> Plus, it doesn't sound particularly
great.
>> No, it's it muffles the noise and it
reduces the red line because the turbo
has to be sized. I mean, as it is, the
turbo is big. Uh, and so that means that
it's useless down low, but it gives you
the power up top. But there is a fairly
narrow window during which the turbo is
happy and above it is too fast for the
turbo and below it's too slow for the
turbo. And so that's why people went to
smaller twin turbos or even different
you know sequential setups. But you know
it's it's there's a lot of compromises
associated with turbocharging that
you're willing to make in a racing
environment that I don't think make for
a great driver's car. And that's why a
lot of the cars were crashed backwards
when they were new because people say
nothing's happening more throttle.
Nothing's happening. More throttle.
Nothing's happening. More throttle. And
then all of a sudden the power
horsepower literally doubles. And if the
car is doing any level of of cornering
at that moment is pointed anywhere other
than directly straight ahead, then the
car loops and then you crash backwards
into stuff.
>> And it can loop for a number of reasons.
Number one, it breaks the brakes
traction at the rear or even worse
starts to accelerate so hard that you
start to steer and then you lift.
>> Now you've rear guaranteed what you're
hitting. I mean this is this is why this
car has the reputation. I had no moments
the car I I found.
>> No. If you know the attributes and you
know that power is coming at 3500 RPM,
then you can temper your inputs and
behavior to never be caught out by it.
>> But if somebody's really frustrated and
or doesn't understand the sort of
trade-offs or the dynamics, especially,
you know, if you imagine this being the
top-of-the-line luxury model that such
as a 911 could be in that period, then
the type of person buying it is not
necessarily race car driver. That race
car driver oriented person is going to
buy a Carrera instead, right? Cuz the
Carrera at that time, there was the base
911, there was the 911s, and then there
was the Carrera, which was the spiciest
naturally aspirated car. Although for
the US market, they were all had the
same engine, but you at least got the
wider flares and the sport suspension
and a tail. Um, and but in Europe, the
Carrera at that point still was the the
old Carrera 2.7 MFI engine. So, it had
210 horsepower, and that is basically
indistinguishable driving
experience-wise from a 73 RS. Uh, and so
the Carrera still meant something in
Europe. And then it was replaced for 76
with a 3 Carrera, which is a naturally
aspirated high compression version of
the 930 engine, 3 L instead of 2.7.
>> And that's a pretty unique car that's
pretty fun to drive. How
>> far is that?
>> 200.
>> Wow. Okay. Um, so for me, the the crazy
thing is that Porsche execs, of course,
Germans that never understand their own
marketing, right, and never understood
understand their own product planning,
didn't think they'd be able to sell the
400. So this was as a homologation car.
The first street car ever with the
Porsche, the turbo engine was given as a
gift to Luis P.
>> Yes. And it has a tartan stripe on the
side that says Porsche. It's
narrowbodied. It's silver. It's got a
crazy plaid interior. It's very cool
looking.
>> That is cool. Um but then they had to
sell 400 of them within 24 months for a
racing homologation. Did not think they
could do it.
>> This is exactly what happened with the
73 RS.
>> Exactly what happened with the Golf GTI.
It's exactly what happened with every
cold German car ever that we are never
going to sell this and [ __ ] now we can't
produce them quickly enough.
>> This happened with a 6.3 also.
>> Yep. Just typical Mercedes like they
typical of German car companies. They
don't know what they have
>> consumers want
>> and they stumble across it. But yeah,
they w up selling what 22,000 or
something 930 turbos overall when they
only had to sell 400 and didn't think
they'd be able to do it. Mhm.
>> Um uh and so ultimately the car got you
know obviously displacement pump 3
liters 33 and then
>> added intercooler intercooling. This is
1978 model year
>> uh and then killed off when the 964 came
out.
>> Well yeah and we didn't get it in the
United States. So the 930 was available
in the United States market in 76,778
and 79 and then from 80 to 85 it wasn't
available and this leads to the creation
of the turbo look which was actually
>> not available.
>> Uh they couldn't meet emissions. Uh, and
so, uh, we got the turbo look, which is,
you know, in the 80s you need something
that looks like that. And so, that's
actually the car to have is the turbo
look, uh, because it has the flares and
the suspension and the brakes of a turbo
with the Carrera, normal naturally
aspirated Carrera engine with a 5-speed.
Uh, and those cars are quite collectible
now, and they're, I think, better to
drive. Uh, they're slower than a
standard Carrera and they have more
grip. So, I actually still prefer the
narrow cars. Um, because you get more
playfulness and less weight and less
drag. Uh, but if you could put a big
enough naturally aspirated engine in a
turbo look, then you end up with
something that is far more compelling to
me than a than a turbo.
>> So, yes, it it's produced until 89. One
year only, 5-speed in ' 89. Uh, and then
the 964 turbo arrives for US 1991 model
year.
>> All right. So, 964, that's the car
behind us. But that's not that's your
car. That's not a turbo.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh 964. Big updates to the car. So power
steering.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh 5-speed obviously for the turbo.
>> Um
>> ABS,
>> anti-lock brakes,
>> Mcerson strut suspension instead of
torsion bars.
>> Torsion bars. Um I have never driven one
of those turbos.
>> It feels a lot like an 89 in terms of
powertrain. uh which is kind of you know
we we have this discussion about we
simultaneously [ __ ] on old turbocharged
cars and then also sort of enjoy them
and I think a lot of it has to do with
gear ratios uh four-speed absolutely
non-starter with the 5-speed it's kind
of okay and you have this old-fashioned
very overtly turbocharged you know it's
still laggy so the normal 964 went to
3.6 6 L when it came out, but the the
964 turbo initially remained at 3.3 L,
>> right?
>> Uh and they just didn't and it was still
um CIS also. Uh which the regular cars
were not the regular cars had gone to
Metronic in the naturally aspirated cars
went to Metronic in ' 84. Um and but the
car they still tuned it for more
horsepower. I think in the US the last
of the 930s. Uh I should also correct
this because I've noticed a lot of
people make this mistake. They refer to
all impact bumper cars as 930, but 930
is only for turbocharged cars. Uh, but
when people say 930 and they're
referring to to impact bumper cars,
generally they should say, yeah, Gbody
body or or impact bumper. Anyway, 315
horsepower from 282, still 3.3 L. Uh,
with the same 5-speed gearbox with a
shorter gear gear shift linkage, you
know, it's is crosses the threshold. Any
5-speed turbo, single turbo 930 to me or
turbocharged 911 is is acceptable for
use and like maybe even enjoyable
although I would ultimately choose the
RS product instead.
>> RS was turbo look.
>> Uh RS would be narrow body but
lightweight GT3 effectively of
>> So there was a 964 RS as well.
>> There was yes. Um and so then they are
initially 33 and then they go to 3.6 6 L
for the late 964 turbos and they also
get for the first time ever I think on a
production car you get red brake
calipers when the 36 turbo comes out. Uh
and those are meab bucks now and those
are the last of the single turbo cars.
Uh those are 94 model year only in the
United States and those are four five
$600,000 now.
>> Wow.
>> Whereas a four-speed 930 is like one or
200,000. A 5-speed 89 930 is like two or
300 as is a 33 964.
>> So mega bucks for 36. But last of the
rear wheel drive turbos last to the
single turbo turbos. And so those are
kind of the beastly cars. And that's
part of why they're so valuable because
it's the last of the like really
exciting maybe too exciting even turbos.
>> Well then the So I again this was not my
video product. I was I was helping out.
The producers w up getting a GT2.
>> Um
>> a 993. GT2.
>> 964. Hold on. Was there a 964? We got a
93. There was no Okay. Sorry.
>> The first GT2 was the 93.
>> 93. Um there was a turbo s lightweight
is what what they had for 964. Yes.
>> Um so that was also still like still
rear drive kind of, you know, still
spicy.
>> That was basically a widebody
964 with a turbo 964 RS with a turbo
engine. So, it has all the sort of it
it's it is functionally it's a
predecessor of a GT2. It's a
>> a paired down RSified rearw wheelel
drive because they were all rear wheel
drive uh
>> turbo,
>> right? So, and GT2 is of course GT3
which is our favorite Porsche just with
the turbos engine
>> effectively. Right.
>> Yes. I mean the there's body work
differences and all that stuff but
fundamentally in in ethos. Yes.
>> Right. So, they got that and then then
93 comes out. 93 comes out famously the
last of the air cooled 911s.
>> Yes. But it does gain in the turbo
four-wheel drive and twin turbos. Y
>> which is you know aimed at reducing the
complaints about um turbo lag
>> and six ratios also helps.
>> And four-wheel drive.
>> Yes. To put down the power.
>> And uh so 93 looks to me I mean I really
have a hard time telling how these cars
apart especially from the back like 964
and 93. I I have to look at the reverse
lights cuz I can't.
>> Oh really? Oh, totally different Beatles
to me. Um, but famously 80% of all parts
were new. This 93 was a big redo.
>> 964 that was 87% new compared to the one
before. Yes.
>> And 993 was 80 according to my research.
So again, they keep doing the same [ __ ]
over and over again. New part, but it
does the same thing. Looks the same.
>> And the windows are interchangeable
between all of them. You can put the
windcreen or the quarter window or any
of the glass in a 993. The doors also,
yes, are interchangeable from a 1963 911
and a 1998 911.
>> So crazy. Um, all right. 93 Turbo that
was also there. There was there that
Patrick Long drove. I was not part of
that whole thing. They got strangely I
will say in a documentary about 911
Turbo, we had a lot of GT2s. Um, which
are, you know, I understand why they're
cooler.
>> It's the pinnacle of the turbocharged
911.
>> Um, although if I were,
>> you could almost categorize a GT2 as a
type of turbo.
>> It is. And that's exactly how I did the
narrative. Although had I chosen the
cars, it would have been things that say
911 Turbo on the back. I appreciated
that.
>> That's very literal.
>> Well, okay. And you can talk about the
racing versions of the car, but it's if
you're doing a thing called the 50 years
of 911 um turbo. Um uh so that was the
993 twin turbo just paired down to rear
wheel drive racing homologation again.
>> Um and then we get to the redheaded
stepchild,
>> the 996.
>> I'm going to make a statement. There was
a beautiful blue 996 turbos, 2002 uh
turbo that that we had there for filming
that was there. I did drive one. I did
drive it. Um I wouldn't say that I would
say that this is the worst 911 I've ever
driven. I would also then go further and
say it's the worst Porsche that I've
driven. And then I would go one step
further.
>> Worse than a 928
>> and say it's the absolute worst sports
car I've ever even by a mile. The worst
sports car I've ever driven.
>> Worse than a 928. an automatic.
>> Oh,
>> it was horrible.
>> So, this transmission is a 5-speed
Mercedes-Benz transmission.
>> Second.
>> Yeah, this is the one that would be used
in like an E55 of that era or a Jaguar.
>> I would rather not say E55. I would say
[ __ ] S 320. I I it was it was tuned
like it should be in a diesel S-Class.
Starts in second unless you floor it.
Uh, and then in which case it takes
quite a while to downshift in a first
and then slurs the shift.
>> Isn't there a sport mode?
>> I think I don't remember. This is months
ago. Um, it was genuinely awful.
>> I think it has a sport mode. There's
also the tiptronic the the shift
>> so you can put it back into first if you
want, but there were times it was
ignoring me. It slurs the shifts. It's
very slow for shifting. So he goes
and strangely hooked up to a torque
converter. That was the worst sounding
flat 6 I've ever heard. And that
includes Subarus.
>> Um it was just guttural. And
>> man, what a [ __ ] horrible. So N let
me let me also be on the record saying
96s aren't as bad as everyone says they
are, right?
>> Yes,
>> they are.
>> They saved the company, right? Let's
just zoom out for a second and say
Porsche had to cost cut the [ __ ] out of
this car or it would there would be no
Porsche and there would therefore no be
no 911. I'm okayish with the cost
cutting, right? I mean, they put the
money where it mattered. The chassis of
the car was great. The suspension
components were great. The engines were
mostly great. The drive the suspension
like all of all of the important stuff
was there. The interior was [ __ ] By the
time the Turbo came out in 2002, they
had figured out a lot of the interior
stuff and and
>> if it was an expensive enough trim of
the car, then a lot of the objections
are addressed because there's leather
where there's plastic normally,
>> but even the plastic got better with
time and um and so by the time you got
to the facelift 996 cars, they weren't
which is that turbo look, you know,
front end, they weren't horrendous. They
were just merely terrible um interior
wise. Now, I had a 2000 911 96 and it
was terrible. Like the interior of that
car was horrid and should have never had
a Porsche badge on it, but I didn't buy
it for its interior. I bought it for its
dynamics, which were pretty damn good.
The automatic absolutely ruined this
car. I mean, beyond
there's no
>> So, this is the first automatic turbo.
It's the first Yeah. First automatic
turbo that was ever offered was the 996.
>> And it was so bad um that if you gave me
the car, I would have said, "No, thank
you."
>> I would I I mean, have you driven one?
Uh, I have driven an automatic early 997
turbo, but I've never Oh, wait. No, yes,
I have. I have driven a silver one.
>> And
>> yeah, I mean, you drive it like a
Mercedes.
>> Yeah, I just
>> It's consistent with the type of person
who was intended to be the 9 the 930 the
the Porsche turbo 911 turbo buyer is
wealthier and older and looking for
speed, but not sport. They're the type
of person who will drive a GT3 and say,
"This rides too hard. I want it." Yeah.
I want it to be more comfortable. And so
it's it's
>> it's a car that is much more likely to
be cross shopped with a Mercedes or, you
know, BMW. It's effectively an SL
competitor with a shitty interior and a
terrible sounding engine.
>> Um although the transmission in any of
the SLS is better than than this was.
Expect look part of it is expectations
based on the badge and what you're what
you're driving. Still a good steering,
not great because it's four-wheel drive.
>> Um, and it was really surprisingly
civilized at very high speeds.
>> Yeah.
>> Easy to go fast. And that's the the core
difference between a GT3/ Carrera RS and
a Turbo. Everyone when the Turbo came
out in the ' 70s, everyone absolutely
mind blown. They were the journalists
were all mind-b blown about how easy and
effortless it was to go fast. If you
launched that car hard and just kept the
pedal down on the autobond until you
were going very fast, they everyone just
could not understand how it could be so
easy and dramafree to go so fast, which
is part which is the fundamental reason
why I think you and I object to the car
because we don't want to go fast. We
want to have fun. And you know, in a
Daytona or a Countach or a Carrera RS or
a GT3, you have more of a sense of going
fast because there's less soundproofing
and the steering is more alive and it's
a little un it's less stable because
it's rear wheel drive and all of those
characteristics that make you feel
closer to the mechanical stuff that's
happening. The Turbo did the opposite of
that and it expanded the ability of
Porsche to reach parts of the, you know,
segments of the market that they had
never served before. And so in some
sense it's you know commercially
beneficial but spiritually the 930 is
almost like a 928 in the sense that you
think of it as a sort of uh more insular
uh fast but not joyful um yeah I look I
I don't disagree with that. I will say
that 996 as a whole really increased the
band I said this in the video really
increased the bandwidth of 911 because
it was bigger and smoother and more
comfortable and it was more luxurious
despite the crappy interior materials.
Um, it was a better luxury car and
really did bridge the gap between 911
and 928, right? It was closer. But 928
to me at least the engine had some
character. It was not an appropriate car
for Porsche in my opinion. It was just
too quote unquote big and heavy, even
though by today's standards it's
neither. Um, but it was too much of a GT
and the 9 insular,
>> right? The 996 Turbo really did take
that over, especially once you can put
an automatic in it. And let me be clear
about this. I'm saying the car is
terrible and whatever else. I just it's
not if you compare the way a 996 turbo
automatic drives to a 996 Carrera 2 base
car with a manual, it's just night and
day, right? The the engine in the base
car sounds great. The engine and turbo
sounds
>> uninspired. Um the turbo is an order of
magnitude faster. It's very fast.
>> It's a genuinely swift car.
>> Laggy as [ __ ] again. But the nice thing
about a l loose torque converter is you
can make up for a lot of that.
>> Not laggy like a 930.
>> Not much is. But yes.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Especially with an automatic. You
have torque converter and you have, you
know, the the ability to just slip uh
through gears and not lose boost on
gears. So it just pulls and pulls and
pulls and pulls and pulls and pulls. Um
but I just other than someone who wants
a Mercedes SL type car, I don't see why
you'd buy a 96 turbo. I mean with a
manual they're obviously desired and
they are becoming increasingly
collectible and this baffles me but I am
just anacronistic. I am the world is
passing me by and I'm not picking up
with the with the you know people who
are 10 years younger than me. The 996 is
a sentimental like emotionally
significant car because it is the 911
from their childhood and that is an
aspirational car for them and so that
drives them to become genuinely
collectible and it will never be a car
that resonates with me but there is a
whole generation
>> I mean I will I like driving them and I
would own one but it would be sort of
like the way that I own a GTI which is
to say like I like all of the stuff that
it does and I would almost use it like
I've owned one 996 and I quite enjoyed
it but it was $17,000 It was a speed
yellow C2 coupe with an exhaust that was
lowered. And I was like, "Wow, this
drives like a 911. It was $17,000. I'm
commuting in it. This is such a more
exciting and interesting thing to
commute in than my 3 series diesel that
I had before,
>> which is probably twice as valuable,
right?
>> No, but it was more I I Yeah, I I
pocketed, you know, five grand and
bought a 911 and commuted in it. Uh, and
so it was yellow and it had yellow seat
belts and yellow stitching and full
leather and aluminum trim interior trim.
It was as nice as you could ever make a
a 996 and I loved it at $17,000, but I
loved that it was $17,000. And if it was
$60,000, I wouldn't have loved it as
much because it didn't it didn't provide
me with $60,000 of utility. That car
today is, I don't know, 25 or $27,000.
It's still a good value. It's still a
good value
>> because they do drive well. Yes, it does
drive well, but it's not a car that like
I like I vividly remember the first time
I the first 911 I ever bought that was
my own was an aircooled car was an 87
Carrera 32 and I remember being like
this is one of the like most memorable
moments of my life and like looking at
it was sunset and I'm looking at the
silhouette of the car and I'm like I see
a 911 silhouette and like I'm driving my
own 911 for the and that feeling I don't
ever get anything remotely close to that
when I drive a 96 but I do get my first
Porsche was a 96 and I did have that
feeling
>> so I I don't have the nostalgia for I
mean, I don't miss it. I don't I don't
want another one. But I did I sort of
made a deal from with myself that I was
going to buy myself a real sports car.
And I went sort of through a whole bunch
of different stuff. And then I had
friends who worked for the car magazines
um and were like, "Just buy drive a
911." And I'm like, "Oh god, you guys
with these, you know, stupid ass engine
Nazi sleds, blah blah blah blah blah."
And I drove it and I bought one. It was
just there was nothing else on the
market that drove the way that thing
does. And this was towards the end of N.
This was from in 2005.
February of January or February05 is
when I bought it. So, it was probably
late '04. So, it was still in
dealerships new. I did certainly did not
buy a new one. Um, but it was magical. I
mean, the the the noise that it made,
the fact that it came from behind you,
that steering was epic. I mean, the
steering was amazing. The brakes were
unbelievable. Um, and I just got in the
car and I thought, I'd burn a datu for
an interior like this. But then, as soon
as I started driving, I was like, "This
is it. It's done. I want one." Um, so I
can see how people can have that
nostalgia moment. A, because it's of
their childhood and B, because it's an
unmatchable driving experience
outside of other 911s.
>> Exactly. And that's where the big hangup
is for me. But there's obviously a lot
of people who don't feel that way
because 996 turbos are 100 grand now.
And, you know, I thought they were very
interesting at 40, at least for the
performance you could get cuz it's 420
horsepower and
>> does 0 to 60 in 4.0 seconds. if you do a
clutch dump and you know they're not
fast in the real world. You can make
them insanely fast with even more lag
and whatnot. I but you know me and
turbos but I mean if you're of that
generation where you want ABS and you
want stability control and you want dual
airbags and you want some measure of
safety and modern computerc controlled
everything well then there is I see a
world I understand why people drive
996s. If on the other hand, you choose a
996 turbo and it's not because you want
a four-wheel drive car and you couldn't
find a Carrera 4, I don't understand
your motives. You're you're you're you
shouldn't have a Porsche. Is that harsh
to say?
>> There are reasons to buy a car other
than how it drives.
>> Yeah, I would buy that 1975 930 because
of how it looked.
>> Exactly. And I think that the Turbo
probably the 96 Turbo probably does that
for someone. I'm much better looking
than a regular because I don't know. I
don't know. It's the top of the line.
It's the car that they aspire to, you
know? It's this thing.
>> I should say a turbo automatic. Let me
qualify that
>> cuz it's just
>> I mean, do you think the manual is
saves it?
>> That automatic was so terrible that Yes.
>> I mean, if it if it was like I Okay,
we'll get on to the later stuff, but I
was there in a 992 Turbo S. That's
automatic, too. Didn't bother me.
>> It was just a great automatic. Well,
transmissions have come a long way,
>> right?
>> Um, manuals haven't. They sort of
stopped getting better and that's why
>> Okay, so 997
>> 997 So 997 comes out. I was in the
industry when in the industry when that
happened and I was sitting at a red
light with a minivan next to me and I
>> I hate where this is going, but I know
exactly where it's going. What were you
What were you driving?
>> I was driving a 97
just base turbo. It was not
>> manual. Uh, automatic.
>> Oh, it's the same transmission.
>> Okay. And I remember the light turning
green and moving out and realizing
shortly as we're moving off that my lane
was about to end. And I thought, "Oh,
I've read all of these things from all
the preview drives from these cars by my
colleagues at Car and Driver and Road
and Track and all these other people
that they this has variable turbine
geometry turbos, VTG turbos, and it has
no lag." And I thought, "Oh, this is
going to be amazing. This minivan is
toast." And I hear and the minivan
floors it when they realize that my
lane's about to end. And they're doing
exactly what you and I would do to the
other person. Like, you know, show them
boss a mini minivan. And I floored it
and the [ __ ] thing wouldn't
downshift. And I actually lost that drag
race to a Chrysler minivan. And this is
before the Pentastar. So, this is
probably like a three three four liter
or whatever that [ __ ] pile was
Mitsubishi engine that was used. or the
4 liter push rod Chrysler. Either way, I
was violent about this because
>> the transmission refused to downshift. I
was stuck in second gear and I remember
tapping down to first and it ignored me.
Um, and I was just sitting there in this
no man's land of 2200 RPM in second
gear,
nothing. And I thought, my colleagues
have gotten this wrong.
>> All you're doing is complaining about
automatics. There's like there's going
to be an arm.
>> Those were not that better. there there
were that engine was laggy as [ __ ]
>> still.
And so if you have all of this
technology in there to make it quote
unquote lag free, which it most
certainly was not, then then don't make
it almost as laggy as a 930. I I don't I
do not love 97 turbos.
>> Mhm.
>> Do you?
>> No.
>> Okay. So why you fighting fighting with
me?
>> I don't know. I just Yeah. I don't know.
97 97s were the high point of the
watercooled
911 for me because I think they were the
they had the best steering of all of
them.
>> Um, and I have driven a couple 97s that
really lit my hair on fire. GT3s which
were amazing and even a GT2 which was
>> shocked the hell out of me because you
know I don't love turbos. I adored that
that GT2. It was amazing. It was raw. It
was guttural. It made fabulous noises.
It had a great manual and it just did
everything really well. So,
>> so why do you think there was such a
difference between this 997 turbo and
the GT2?
>> I probably
>> shouldn't the GT2 have larger turbos and
therefore more lag.
>> It possibly where I drove it cuz I drove
it more on I drove it almost actually
possibly exclusively on track. I don't
remember if I
>> which Okay, it's a GT2. Yeah, maybe
that's how it got me.
>> But you were never drag racing a minivan
in a GT2.
>> No. And admittedly that minivan was to
your point an automatic. I just I where
you're stuck. You're just stuck.
>> You mean the 997 turbo?
>> The 97 turbo.
>> They were both automatics.
>> Automatics. The
may even race the car. I just It was the
same feeling to me. The 997 turbo
automatic was the same feeling to me as
the 930 was. I'm trapped.
>> Yes.
>> There is nothing I can do. I'm at the
mercy of turbo lag and trans gearing and
whatnot. I just can't beat a minivan and
I paid how much for a Porsche. Like I
just it's just a non-starter for me.
>> Yep. I'm with you.
>> Starter. Um that's it.
>> Otherwise 997 innovations. Anything else
that that did? Well 97 wound up getting
PDK.
>> Mhm.
>> For the facelift.
>> For the facelift. That was
transformative.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but I don't remember if I ever drove
a PDK 997 Turbo. Don't think I did. the
transformative for the other cars.
That's when the automatic went from to
being
>> a handicap to being like a genuine
contender for
>> an alternative if you sure don't can't
drive a stick, I guess.
>> Um 911 Turbo. You spend any time with
them?
>> Yeah, I've driven at least one. It was
silver with a red interior
>> and
>> I don't remember it.
>> That's not good. You remember
everything.
Um, 911's my least favorite generation
of of 911s, I think. Um, I just I didn't
care for the steering when they came
out. I thought they were probably one of
the best looking uh generations. Um, but
I don't I didn't care for steering. I
didn't care for
the cabin. I just thought it became a
large paname coupe thing. M
>> um and so I don't remember I remember
sliding a 911 91 around a racetrack
quite a bit and being astonished at how
dynamically competent the car was both
in terms of its limits and its limit
performance. It was just genuinely
amazing car
>> turbo. I mean I've driven I think I
drove all of them. In fact I know I did
target t target four target
>> well those are not turbos. Those are No,
I mean, but I think I drove every I
think I've driven every single variant
of the
>> of the 991 um and and including
obviously GT3, which is my favorite um
of them all.
>> R,
which is a GT3 RS kind of um
effectively. Um but yeah, no, Turbo just
again, respect for its speed because now
it's kind of usable in the real world.
Um and then of course it became
automatic only after that. just sort of
fell off my Christmas card list because
I don't care for an automatic car. But
the 992, I don't like 992 better than I
like 99. Um, I don't care for the
interior. There's too many screens. I
don't love the infotainment. Um, I think
it's cheaper. It looks cheaper. It feels
cheaper. It's a lot louder in the car.
Um, between the road noise of the tires
in the back for whatever reason and uh
and rattles. Um, I just not quite as
quality, I guess, as the 911 was, but
holy [ __ ] that car is so fast and it's
so usably fast. Also,
>> did you drive or have you driven yet the
hybrid one?
>> I haven't. So, we had Henry Catch do
that segment cuz he was on the launch of
that car and what he said is basically
what I've heard everywhere else, which
is the lag is now gone. Like they've
fixed the electric turbos have fixed the
problem of turbochargers. Um, and so I
look forward to driving that. Uh, I
don't think I will love it more than I
than I love a GT3 or, god forbid, a 911
ST. Well, yes, and this is the
fundamental conclusion that we're
reaching after [ __ ] on these cars
continuously for however long we've been
doing it, is that the target demographic
or audience for this car is not you or
I. It's somebody who's richer and older
in spirit and maybe actually also. Um,
but it's a it's it is a car you buy if
you want effortless speed. If you're
seeking speed with minimum drama,
maximum safety and in comfort and with
features and all that stuff, the the
turbo is the car you buy. And so in that
sense, it is kind of the flagship of the
range. Uh, and then the other cars you
buy if you have more sporting intent,
you know, or that if you from a driving
perspective at least, although now GT
cars are being bought by everybody
because it's such a mainstream brand and
it's so desirable to have a
>> Oh, but it's also so obvious to even
people who don't know how to drive them.
You rev one of those things to 9,000 RPM
and just shuts everyone up.
>> Yes. Yes. It's an unmatched experience.
You can't get that in a lot of places,
especially with a with a manual
transmission. I just drove a GT3 RS uh
on on the racetrack quite extensively in
in filming. The car is just
indescribably good. It's just
indescribably good. And having driven
that right after spending quite some
time in that N Turbo S 50th anniversary
edition, I can say there is a place for
both of them. I, you know, you said
we're [ __ ] on them, it's from a
journalistic point of view, I see I see
benefits to either, right? Effortless
speed like you said and it always
surprises me to find out people like
Walter Rural, he drives a turbo every
day. Doesn't want a GT car.
>> Well, I mean,
>> he's 143.
>> Every day I would drive an S-Class. It's
kind of the same thing.
>> Why not have an S-Class?
>> I don't know. Because what if he wants
to go as quickly as possible with just,
you know, with his eyes closed? That's
effectively what the car does, right?
It's like an all-weather go as fast as
you can. you know, an S-Class if you
needed to hustle down a really good like
I was having this thought the other day
because I used to daily a GTI and I one
of the things that I miss about the GTI,
which I don't get if I'm dailying my
265,000 mi E320 station wagon is that if
a very good piece of road comes along or
some insucient person in a in another
motor car needs to be shown what's what,
then then the GTI is at my disposal to
sort of like have
>> spends with that in.
>> Yes. Exactly. and and I can't do that in
my in my 265,000 mi E320 wagon. And so
if you're daily driving like something
that's kind of S-classy a lot of the
time, but then all of a sudden if you
need if you encounter some really good
piece of road or you get a clover leaf
that's clear or you know you you find a
I don't know some person who needs to be
taught a lesson or something like that
or you're on a long distance road trip
that's also has some good roads on it
then it's kind of a good allround
device.
>> Sure. Get an S63 AMG if you want an
S-class. Oh, an S63 will never be able
to do, you know, what a turbo can do.
>> Oh, not what a turbo can do, but it'll
show the peasants who's boss. I mean,
>> yeah, I guess on a back road. I mean,
look, what we're saying is multitaskers,
right? This is nice. There's nice t It's
always nice to have your daily that does
it all.
>> Yes. And Turbo, I think, is very good at
doing that. Better than most anything
else I can think of.
>> I don't think there's any car. So, I
always sort of use a Nissan GTR as the
benchmark for a car that I would take on
a really, you know, if I had to outrun
the boogeyman. Um, but I think it's, you
know, obviously the GTR is now very old.
It's turbo at this point.
>> Yes. Yes. If if you want speed with
minimum like and you're just the speed
is the goal and like sure-footedness.
>> Well, right. So, you could get even more
speed with a Tesla Model S Plaid, for
example. But what I like about even even
the turbos that I hate is that the
chassis tuning is brilliant. So like the
that turbo is it's speed but it's not
like it's it doesn't it doesn't do for
example what a computer controlled
electric car can do for example which is
just put it all down. It is ass first
right. It's coming around a corner you
under with power over steer and it is a
real true driver's car. And so I what I
really appreciate is that that DNA has
made it through all the way to 992.1
turbo was the latest one I've driven. Um
I do love that. So it does you can take
advantage of it as a real driver and
someone who really wants to push above
the limit.
>> Well, so now we've answered why Valter
Royal drives a turbo every day. I guess
>> I just I could never I I just can't
imagine. I'm too much of a fan of revs,
I guess, and induction noise to drive a
turbo. Now that somehow there's crazy
music coming in that like a 91 92 turbo
there. There's stuff coming into that
car that I know is fake cuz I just don't
think it's possible to have that much
sound coming through the induction
system of a car. So, I think there's a
speaker somewhere. Um, but it's just so
well done that it doesn't offend me. Um,
I don't know how they did it. Somebody
may prove prove me wrong and fine. I'm
not going to die in that hill, but I
suspect they're doing something to it.
But the overall experience is pretty
damn good. Unless you've driven a GT3,
in which case then it's like just
>> And now the GT3 rides in a civil enough
way since the 991 came out that you
could plausibly daily it.
>> Totally. You could easily daily a GT3.
Um I
>> depends how old you are and what you're
willing to tolerate.
>> I mean, okay, fair enough. But I would
say I I would have like a 997 GT3. I've
said this before. Wow.
>> Yeah. I'm not a great daily.
>> Oh god, no. Which makes it a perfect
daily for me. Like I would love to daily
that car, but it would you would need
knee surgery on your left knee. Like and
you might break your right wrist. The
shifter is really high effort. The
clutch is brutal. The car just chatters
the engine. The clutch chatters your
teeth out. I love it. Love it as a
sports car.
>> Um but I think it's
>> a great classic.
>> Yeah. I I I don't think it's any worse
as a daily driver than listening like a
Lotus Elise. No. far far more
interesting and far more
>> um complex.
>> Yeah. So um we're not turbo customers.
If you had to have one, which one would
it be?
>> 997. If something turbocharged would be
a 97.
>> No, no, no. If you had to have a Porsche
Turbo, it can't be a GT car.
>> Mm-
>> Oh.
Uh can I swap the motor out?
>> No.
>> [ __ ] because then it would be the night
it would be 9:30 and I threw up. Um
pro Oh.
Oh,
I gotta go. Where's my boss?
>> Jason has to leave. I'm driving through
a tunnel.
>> I don't I don't know. Um
Wow.
>> So Jason wants no turbos. No 911 turbos.
>> I want no turbos. But if I had to have
one,
>> right? So I mean 992 is out automatic.
That's the best. Objectively, that is
the best car of the bunch. Out because
no automatic. Uh, no manual. 911 out
because no automatic. Uh, no manual.
Sorry. Um, for me personally, 997 best
steering of the bunch.
>> 2 you could get with center locks.
>> I would never want center locks.
>> They're so sexy looking though.
>> They're sexy looking, but you can also
get TSW Hawkenheim RS with a cap that
makes it look like that. And you have
regular things. You
>> GT3s all have center locks.
>> Yeah, they're stupid. I would have my
GT3 custom built with logs. It's dumb.
The center lock is another excuse me for
saying fetishized rich Porsche dick bag
thing, right? I understand the appeal of
center locks. That's what they use in
racing. Blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah. But you are buying a car that you
can only ro you can only torque the
wheels down so many times before you
have to throw them out. Come on. That's
just bad engineering. It's stupid.
>> Jason has uh eluded evaded the question
that I asked.
>> Damn it. Um it would probably be a 97
because I think it's probably the best
at
of all of the
97.
>> I've never driven a 964 and I don't
always love the way 993s drive. So,
>> I don't like the 93 because it's the
four-wheel drive.
>> So, you would of course have another 964
because
>> I'd have a 96436 turbo. Yeah. Because
it's the the the least like offensive
uh of the um single turbo cars. I'd want
a rear wheel drive one. Uh, and so and
I'd want the 5-speed.
>> Mhm.
>> And that's the best of the five-speed
rear wheel drive turbos.
>> Okay. I will defer to your knowledge
because I have not driven one and say
that
>> it's a car where you engage the where
you purposely seek out the
turbochargedness and it becomes an
amusing part of the car's character like
you would with a Renault R5 turbo, you
know, like then you're like embracing
the turbo or an RS2, right? You're like,
"Okay, I'm specifically signing up for
like the period turboness of this car as
a vintage experience.
What's the last one you'd have?
>> The last one? 996, I think.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Huh? Okay. I I don't
>> Oh, the the the four-speed cars are so
bad.
>> Damn it. I thought that's what you're
going to say. That car was
>> bit of a heartbreaker.
>> Yeah.
>> So beautiful.
>> I mean, I literally like childhood
bedroom wall poster car for me and I
finally bought one in 2014
or something like that. And I had and I
had an a Carrera 32 at the same time. I
would literally go down and look at the
I wouldn't even have to go down and
look. I would before I was I was walking
out the door before I'd go down to the
garage, I'd be like, "We're taking the
Carrera 32." I put 500 miles on the car
in 18 months of ownership and then of
the turbo.
>> Meanwhile, I'd probably put 20,000 m on
a 32 in the same time or something like
that.
>> I can see that happening. It's it's a
really
>> when you have the choice, you always
choose not the turbo was what I found.
This is the problem. Like literally in
my own garage,
>> I'm asked to do a a sort of history
lesson on turbo and I have to be
objective about that. I'm a journalist,
right? I'm giving a history lesson. This
is these cars had incredible speed under
a strange set of circumstances and or a
limited set of circumstances, especially
in the early
>> in the real world was not accessible.
>> But do you do I not give credit for a
car that's 3 seconds to 60 quicker than
the next that next week's car tested
that year? Like that's a holy [ __ ]
achievement. But it's also part of the
journalist problem with numbers where we
fetishize speed and we really reward
cars that remove like 959 is a perfect
example. We should have one in this
studio so we can just throw paintballs
at it. Um it's just one of those cars.
>> That's probably the biggest heartbreaker
hero I've ever met.
>> 911 Turbo.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean it foreshadowed everything that
911 Turbo became.
>> Y
>> you know computerc controlled all drive.
I think part of also this issue is that
there are so many variants of the 911
and there are so many of them that are
really great that even though like you
could say that objectively the 9 the 911
Turbo is not bad. It's just that for
every 911 Turbo there's like six other
variants that are so much more
gratifying as drivers and they usually
cost less money. Yeah, it's it's it's
it's a bit tough one because even the
bad ones are kind of great and and this
is a lineage that has, let's be honest,
lasted for 50 years. And one of the
points that I make is 2025 down to 1975
is obviously 50 years. 50 years before
1975 was 1925. Um that was in that year.
I did a bunch of research to try to put
that in perspective how long 50 years is
in terms of the march of progress. In
1925, less than half half the households
in the United States had a car.
>> No,
>> electricity.
>> Electricity.
>> So in the time that in the same amount
of time that it's been since that 9/11
came around back from that, half the
households in this country did not have
electric. That is a long long lineage.
And so I when asked to do this, I said,
"Yeah, absolutely." What else has lasted
50 years?
>> The Corvette.
>> Yeah. Also something else I would do a
documentary.
>> Chevrolet Suburban
>> 100% do a documentary on that. Um it's
pretty cool when things last for 50
years, especially when you have car
companies that have lasted for minutes.
>> The BMW 3 series is almost there.
>> 50 years 50 years is 50 years.
>> Is it I thought it was 76.
>> Um I think technically 75 production. So
I think it's been called 50 years. Star
Club magazine just did a 50 years of
three series thing.
>> Um it's sitting on my kitchen counter
right now. I haven't read it yet, but um
yeah. No, it's not that many cars. Like
Accord's not 50 yet either. Camry is
certainly not 50.
>> Civic
Civic is 1974.
>> We're getting close. Anyway, Civic
Civic.
>> That's the point is, you know, Corolla
probably.
>> This is a lineage of cars that, you
know, has made it now 60 years.
>> Um, and one variant. Pretty cool. Also,
the second ever production turbocharged
car. The first ever production sports
car that's turbocharged. um
>> BMW 2002 Turbo.
>> So that was not regular production. So
2002 Turbo 9 Saab9 Turbo was really the
first regular production.
>> If you really want to look back, you
have the Ultimate Jet Fire
>> and the Corv.
>> The Corvair, which were the first two,
but they were very shortlived and not
regular production model. They were a
special variant.
>> They're also not really sporting.
>> Yeah. Um then 999 was the first regular
production turbo and then 930 was the
first regular production
>> a real pioneer.
>> Yeah. Um even if it's not too
>> that we choose to select occasionally.
It's a bang, not a anything else.
>> What what what else would it be? Derek,
are you playing one of those childish
games that's going to get you in trouble
with HR again?
>> What's the What's the word that everyone
puts in the captions? Uh
>> unal alive.
>> Unal alive. Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Uh, you will unal alive a turbo
and uh marry a
regular 964.
>> That's what I've done.
>> Okay.
>> All right.
>> I will go do I'll just screw
Volkswagens or something.
>> Yes. Volkswagen orig the Porsche
audience is going to tell me to do after
watching this. Go [ __ ] yourself and a
Volkswagen. Well, I'm way ahead of you.
Well, on that bombshell,
thank you for suffering through our
enlightening, uplifting views on the 911
Turbo. We'll maybe see you next week or
similar.
About this episode
Celebrating 50 years of the Porsche 911 Turbo, Cammisa and Tam-Scott dive into the history and evolution of this iconic model. They discuss its performance, the unique characteristics of various generations, and why they personally prefer other variants over the Turbo. With insights from their experiences and a humorous take on the car's quirks, the episode balances nostalgia with critical analysis. Notable guests and anecdotes from the documentary on the Turbo add depth to the conversation, making it a rich exploration of this legendary sports car.
50 years of turbo
agreed value insurance
agreed value replacement cost insurance
cam shaft
Carrera Panamericana
flat‑12 engine
generation
GT2
Hagerty
horsepower
Audi RS2
BMW 3 Series
Bugatti Veyron
Chevrolet Corvair
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Suburban
Dodge Viper
Ford GT40
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Lamborghini Countach
Lotus Elise
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Mercedes-Benz SL
Nissan GT-R
Porsche 356
Porsche 904
Porsche 911
Porsche 917
Porsche 928
Porsche 935
Porsche 959
Porsche Carrera RS
Renault 5
Saab Turbo X
Tesla Model S
Tesla Model Y
Toyota Camry
Toyota Corolla
Volkswagen Golf
Volkswagen Scirocco
Original notes
The 911 Turbo is 50 years old this year! We’ve come a long way since the days of having just four manual gears to row and enough turbo lag to sustain the birth, life, and death of a civilization. From the beginning of the 930 until now, the Turbo has always been the flagship of the 911 range - but has it been worthy of being at the top?
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During this episode, Jason discusses his involvement with the latest 50 Years Of Turbo video, discussing some special cars he was able to drive like an early Euro 930 all the way up to the 50th Anniversary 992 Turbo S.
Jason and Derek break down the Turbo lineage and where it comes from - first materializing on the Carrera nameplate on the 356, working its way into the nomenclature of the 911 range including the 1973 Carrera RS and Carrera 3.0, and eventually into the 1975 Turbo Carrera. After covering the various versions of 930 (including how the terms “930” and “Carrera” often have different meanings than most people realize) , they eventually work their way up the timeline to discuss the 964, 993, 996, 997, and 991 Turbo models. Jason and Derek discuss their favorite and least favorite models within the range - and their answers may surprise you.
One thing is for sure - the character of the Turbo lends itself much more to a drive who simply wants capability and not pure necessarily driving enjoyment. Which begs the question - is it the “best” 911? Or has the popularity of recent GT3 and GT2 models changed the narrative?
Find out more on this episode of The Carmudgeon Show.
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The Carmudgeon Show
Hagerty Media
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