Has The Porsche 911 Turbo Been a Worthy Flagship? — Carmudgeon w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 215

Hello.

>> Hi.

>> Gutenag

depends on when they're listening to

this.

>> So hello is easier because we don't have

to decide. Hello.

>> Okay. This is the carajin show. I am

Derek Tam Scott. We are driven by

Hagerty. That is a Jason Kamiso. He's

also driven by Hagerty.

>> I'm not

>> Hagerty drives him.

>> Hagerty drives me.

>> Um

>> this episode of the Karen Show is about

the Porsche 911 Turbo which is

celebrating its 50th birthday.

Is it December 2nd?

>> Well, I no one knows the exact date. I

mean, somebody uh but no, 2025 is the

50th anniversary of the 911 Turbo. Uh I

was asked to do uh to take part in a

documentary on this. So, that launches

this week. If this episode doesn't air

on Monday, it's because we've held it a

day or two just to coincide with the

release of that video. Um just so we

have a a grand Porsche Turbo

celebration. Um,

>> this is definitely a celebration of the

turbo.

>> The the documentary is a celebration of

the 50 years of turbo.

>> This episode maybe is doing less

celebrating if we're honest.

>> It's explaining why

we prefer other variants. Yes. Besides

the turbo.

>> Exactly.

>> But that's a personal decision that you

should make on the basis of your

preferences and demographics.

>> You like to be wrong. Go. I'm just

kidding.

>> Right.

>> The world is made of plenty of flavors.

If you like vanilla and I like

chocolate,

why are you wrong? But hold on, never

mind. Clapping. Yeah, he's clapping at

my uh stupidity.

And we're going to start the episode

now.

Typical youths. Get off your phone,

Derek. We're recording. This podcast has

already started.

>> Is it? I'm uh It

>> has already started.

>> I was learning some important context.

Oh, you're doing research for this

episode.

>> Well, no sense.

>> 44 seconds of research.

>> You can continue to do that while I show

you the the uh t-shirt that I was

supposed to be wearing, but it's too

cold in here, so I have a so I have a

hoodie on instead.

>> Okay, Jason, tell us about your t-shirt.

>> It says jasonsme.com.

>> Are we going to uh talk about tires or

>> no anything like that?

>> We're talking about Hagerty and the

insurance products that it provides.

>> Yes. Uh because Hagerty is a car.

>> We're both subscribers to that. We are

members. Oh, there's a spider.

>> You want me to extinguish it?

>> Yep.

>> Derek is a murderer. You saw it here

first. Hagerty is a insurance company by

enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Um, and

>> is that going to go in my permanent

record?

>> Your Hagerty record. I don't think your

insurance company keeps track of how

many spiders you kill, but that was

fairly violent. If only you could be so

decisive when you clap as you sound of

one hand one hand destroying the life of

a poor innocent thing. Where did it come

from? Like has it been on this table the

whole time while you were doing this?

>> Okay. So you have a t-shirt.

>> I have a t-shirt.com.

>> Uh that's just to go to get a free

quote. Um Hagert's uh Hagerty does some

things many things differently than

other insurance companies. One of which

is uh and I think the most important

thing from my perspective is that uh the

this is agreed value insurance. Hagerty

calls it guaranteed value and that is

you engage in a conversation with your

insurance company at the time of writing

the insurance policy where you agree on

the car's value. Um so if anything

happens um that's what you're paid. It's

none of this BS if I can use that term

with um other car companies like you get

>> insurance companies

>> uh yeah other insurance companies.

Sorry. you get hit and the other guy's

insurance company's like, "Well, see

that nice Porsche Porsche back there?

We'll give you $5 for it." And you're

like, "Yeah, but it's actually worth

$6." And uh then you there's no

fighting. Uh and that to me as someone

who's had three big claims in 20

something years, 28 years, um on my cars

is very important to me because I had to

fight to keep the Shurocco. I did not

have to fight to keep the E30 when I hit

a deer in it because I had it uh

sufficiently insured. Um and then same

thing with the Rover. um which is

running. In fact, if this episode goes

live, when I think it will, there

>> is today December 1st.

>> Today might be December 2nd or 3rd. We

don't know at the time of recording. Uh

we may hold this episode. We may be a

day late to to

>> and perhaps even a dollar short

>> probably, but not if insured by Hagerty,

then we'd be a dollar ahead. Um no. Uh

>> not that Jason condones committing

insurance fraud.

>> Dollar ahead. No, I didn't say you stole

a dollar. You can make a dollar, I

guess. Yeah, I don't Do not get me fired

over this [ __ ] you bastard. Um,

uh, the Rover video is scheduled to go

live around now, too, where you get to

watch the Rover, uh, starting

>> turn over.

>> This is the car that would have been

totaled if I did not have agreed value

uh, replacement cost insurance on it.

And so, I'm very grateful to Hagerty for

that. So, they get the plug. And if you

go to jasonzmi.com, you get a free quote

anyway. Um,

>> and it gets attributed to Jason.

>> Yeah. And I can point to my boss and be

say, "Look, look at what I did."

>> Yep. I'm selling insurance.

>> I'm selling I'm No, I'm not. I'm not

licensed to sell. That's right. You're

not an engineer. I'm not insurance.

You're referring people.

>> Referral. I think it's technically a

referral code. Whatever. I don't care

either way. Go to hagerty.com/

>> Well, I'm selling used cars.

>> You actually, but I do sell used cars.

Yes. I'm not licensed to do I'm not even

licensed to drive anymore, but luckily

no one know.

>> Never mind. Um I did get quite a ticket

filming the uh the episode that we're

talking about today.

>> Um because

>> a performance award.

>> I thought a performance award. That's

not exactly how the police officer

described it, but I thought I was in a

zone of speed that was much larger than

I was and I was doing way beyond that.

And so when he said, "Do you know how

fast you're going?" I'm like, "Pretty

good idea." And he's and I'm thinking

like, "Why is this guy so mad?" And

turns out I was in a 35, not a 55.

>> And the speed that I was doing was far

in excess of 55, but it was sort of, you

know, reasonably speeding. Not so much

when it's a 35.

>> Huh.

>> Oh god. So, how'd that go?

>> Um, I'll be getting a lawyer. Um,

anyway, we should be sponsored by

somebody who does those like some like

ambulance

>> ticket fighters.

>> Ticketfighter.com or some uh whatever.

Oh, we'll we'll see. Um, more

importantly, I was out in Nevada filming

a special on 50 years of the Porsche 911

Turbo.

>> Has it been 50 years already? It feels

like just yesterday

>> in 197

to 2025. Um, 50 years. I was I'm a

little bit worried that the audience is

going to receive this and make it as a

paid piece by Porsche. And so I'm going

to say right off the bat, Porsche did

not pay me a scent. I was asked to do

this. Uh this is Hagerty video in

concert with Mobile One.

>> Were you that complimentary that people

might confuse you for having been paid?

I thought you didn't like those cars.

>> I don't like those cars, but that's not

part of that's not part of the story.

The story is let's talk about this mark

that has made it by 50 years, right? And

so, you know, my thought I wrote my

segments. I wrote the and the voiceover

that I did. So, I'm the I'm the sort of

I'm the intro and then I'm the narrator

throughout throughout the piece. Um, and

I don't really say anything I disagree

with. Looking back on it, maybe would

have phrased some one thing. I called it

the pinnacle of the 911 lineup. The

script that I wrote was actually the

pinnacle of the regular 911 lineup. Um,

>> that's

>> well, that's how it's product. It's

positioned product planning wise. It's

the peak of it. I would call the GT cars

the the pinnacle of the lineup. In fact,

Porsche technically would call the GT2.

I would say no, it's the naturally

aspirated GT3 that is actually the the

high point, but that's my personal

my personal opinion. Um,

>> you could also easily do this by looking

at the price tag.

>> That's exactly. Yeah, but either way,

um, no, I was asked to do sort of

celebration piece of this. No problem at

all. I get, you know, I hadn't driven I

drove one 930. We've talked about this

uh before once very briefly. hated it.

Um,

>> really? Which one?

>> Uh, the one that we were on a rally

with. It was

>> Oh, the gray one.

>> I don't know. Dark gray. It was Yes, it

was an early uh Intercool 3.3.

>> Yeah. Uh, this one was uh So, anyway, so

more importantly, I thought, yeah, I'm

happy I'm always happy to do research,

happy to delve in. And so, I researched

obviously the sort of entire lineage of

the 911 Turbo and I narrated this video.

Henry Catfalls in the video. He did a

phenomenal job. We gave him like two

pieces of information and he went off

and did a review, a very quicky sort of

review of the 992.2 Turbo S, which is

the new one with electric turbos that's

now a hybrid. Um, that's and we we hit

every generation. So 930, which is the

original

>> 964, 993, 96, 97, 91, 92. Um, so

um, it was fun. It was fun. Um, it's a

40inutish video. It's in final edit now.

Um, kind of an interesting,

>> it should be live around the same time.

>> Should be live around the So, if this

episode's a day late, that's we've held

it for a day or two just to coincide.

Uh, Pat Long, Patrick Long was in the

video. He talked about car. Jeff Wart

was in a couple se sections um segments.

Um, and we got some um pretty cool cars.

Not we, I did nothing to do with it, but

the the other the production company got

some pretty cool cars in there like GT2s

and stuff like that. Um, so yeah. So, I

think we should talk about 9 911 turbo.

We put

>> which this is not

>> that is not um but it is air 911

>> by choice.

>> Look right into that camera and tell

them why you chose to have the inferior

car.

>> Uh I chose the superior car cuz I like

throttle response and compression.

>> Yeah, I've owned a turbo. I've owned a

911 turbo before.

>> I think you've bitched uh mentioned that

car

>> before. Yes, I have.

>> So, all right. The So, have you driven?

So, the I the car that we open the intro

open the episode in I had a 992.1

911 Turbo S 50th anniversary edition.

Um, but really the car that we open the

story with is a 1975 930. So, this is a

3 L

>> correct

>> 6 and 12 to one compression,

>> right?

>> Um, 260 horse.

>> No intercooler.

>> No intercooler. So, was it a US or non-

US car?

>> I don't know. How do I tell? It was

gorgeous.

>> Uh, yeah, I can tell you if you show me

a picture of it.

>> Uh, I will. My phone's over there. I It

was so pretty.

>> Yeah, you had Viper green metallic.

>> Oh my god. I mean, it was just like I'm

not I did while you were in the bathroom

earlier, I was taking pictures of your

car back here. I There's something about

the 911 shape that just

probably because the Volkswagen Beetle

is my first love and it's the same basic

shape.

>> Mhm. Don't Don't get mad at me. Um, but

that flared out green thing with the

[ __ ] hips and the turbo bad, the

inverse sticker on it that says turbo if

you cross your eyes.

>> Oh my god.

>> Um, and then I absolutely hated driving

it.

>> Yeah, they're miserable.

>> Okay, moving on. Uh, I'm kidding. Uh,

>> well, this has been a short episode of

the car show. Thank you for joining us

this week. the the 7 and 12 to1 3.3 L

intercool car that I drove

>> 7 to1

>> um was beyond dead off boost

>> this one actually wasn't as bad as that

one was it was make no mistake miserable

and we make a big long we have sort of a

a big long section kind of dramatized

section where I'm floored for about four

minutes giving a whole speech I'm like

yeah still floored blah blah blah blah

blah um because the lag is genuinely

atrocious. And the power the power band

is small. So you nothing nothing

genuinely holy [ __ ] fast and then shift

and then for for a split second cuz then

immediately red line shift and then

you're waiting again longer and longer

and longer and it goes again. Um but

this one wasn't as bad as the other one.

>> Have you driven a three liter?

>> Mhm.

>> Is that the one you owned?

>> No, I owned a 33.

>> Okay. Um and which the 3 liters are

worse? They all suck. I don't know which

one is worse.

>> There it is. It's been brewing for like

10 minutes. That sneeze. Um

I the the I think that the the three O's

are worse.

>> It could just be variation car to car

now that they're 50 years old as we're

>> observing, celebrating.

>> Uh but yeah, I find them to be all

pretty offensive.

>> I Oh no, I still have to sneeze again.

Did you like spray like pepper in this

in the studio or something?

>> Okay. So,

>> am I allergic to allergic to turbos?

>> Yeah, that we already know you're

allergic to turbos. Do we want to start

with some context about where this car

came from or do you want to talk about

um

>> I don't know how how encompassing would

we like to be with this?

>> Let's talk about it. I mean, you have

very strong opinions about turbos. I

have very strong opinions about turbos.

>> They work well in racing.

>> They certainly worked well. And so the

racing version of the 930 was the 935

which had a slightly different body on

it, but that was a

>> Yeah, the 9 So there was a turbo. Okay.

>> Okay.

>> Let's back up. Let's back up and and

start with So the name Carrera is a name

that Porsche started using in the 1950s

for their highest performing cars. And

they kind of saved the name Carrera for

their most exciting cars until 1984 when

it became the base model. So now we

think of Carrera as being synonymous

with the base model 911. That was not

true for ages and ages. And so what used

to be Carrera RS is what is now GT3

effectively. And so that lineage goes

directly from Carrera RS to 996 GT3.

Three generations of Carrera RS, the the

original one, the 964, the 993, and then

became the GT3. Uh so the name Carrera

used to mean something. And so the

original Turbo was called the Turbo

Carrera for that reason because they

wanted to indicate that it was the

highest performance car. Uh the first

Carrera 911, there was really only one

Carrera 911, which was the RS in 73,

came out in Paris in October of ' 72.

And uh that was the first time they had

used the Carrera name since they stopped

making the 4 cam 356s. So normally 356s

are single cam push rod motors and there

was a 4 cam racing engine.

>> Well, single cam to 2 cam, right? If you

can't call them single cam and then four

cam. So it's one cam per bank or Oh no,

hold on. You mean push rod?

>> Yes.

>> One total cam shaft, not one overhead.

Okay.

>> Yes.

>> Sorry.

>> Yes. So your choice in a 356, you get

one cam or four cams. Uh and this thing

was super sophisticated and it was gear

driven and like you know roller bearings

and just they cost $200,000 to rebuild

them because there's so many damn moving

parts and everything's gear driven and

bevel this and all that happy hor. But

incredible um specific output which was

the goal. So in a 2 L car you could get

200 horsepower. And this car engine was

available in the 356 and a whole bunch

of other race cars too like the the 904

for example. Um and so Carrera name

reappears for the first time on a 911 in

1973. And the reason why they did that

was in order to go racing. Uh

>> which of course is the origin of the

name Carrera.

>> Yes. Carrera means race in uh Spanish.

And uh and it was named after the

Carrera Panameana, the race in Mexico.

Uh and so uh this is fair. We've talked

about this before, but basically the N

Porsche spent a long time trying to win

Lemal and couldn't because they were

running with 3 L flat 8s. And this was

at the same time that the GT40 is

running with 7 L. And for an event like

Leal, they just couldn't get the power

for long enough to for the engines to

sustain the level of power output

necessary for them to go fast enough to

win at least also fast track. Uh and so

a an outright win at Le had eluded them.

So they did a clean sheet design. Ferdan

Pekk, you know, spent all the money in

order to show the world uh what Porsche

could do. Porsche was good at giant

beating but not good enough to do it

with a 3 L car against 7 L cars at Lal,

which is fast. So, they do a clean sheet

car. That's the 917. It's a first

12cylinder Porsche. It's um maybe the

only 12-cylinder Porsche. Uh it's a

horizontally opposed air cooled flat 12.

Uh it's 4 1/2 L initially and uh they

had some reliability issues initially,

but then they won them all in 70 and 71

before the car was outlawed. Uh the

regulations limited uh to I think it was

3 L for 72 and onward. So, they spent

all this money. They did win the mom,

but then the car was illegal after two

seasons and ferry Porsche was very cheap

and his nephew Ferdinand Pek had spent

all this money and then they end up with

this like white elephant thing where

they're like, "What do we do with this?"

So the answer was twofold. One first

fold the first thing was to m make a car

that could race that was much cheaper

based on existing ingredients and that

was what the Carrera RS was. And then

the other thing that they did was there

was this format called Can-Am in the

United States that had been it was

basically an open unstructured no

restrictions type of racing. The the

bodywork there had to be se two seats

and the bodywork had to be enclosed but

other than that there were no

restrictions on aerodynamics or engine

displacement or power output or any of

that. Uh and so initially they were the

races were dominated by Lola and McLaren

mostly running big Chevy engines like

aluminum seven liter seven or eight

liter engines. Uh and then Porsche said

okay we have this 917 thing uh since

it's an unrestricted category unlike

endurance racing in Europe we can run

whatever we want in it. And so they put

turbochargers on the 917 uh

>> flat 12

>> on the flat 12 on the 12cylinder 917.

And so the cars which had previously

been running with five or 600 horsepower

naturally aspirated uh and were deeply

uncompetitive because the 8 liter Chevy

engines made much more than that like

900 horsepower. Uh and the these cars by

the way weigh like 2,000 lb. Um so the

turbochargers uh made the 917 have real

horsepower. Um I think it was like 11 12

13400 horsepower maybe even more in

qualifying trim. Uh, and they strapped

drivers to them like Mark Donahghue. Uh,

and

>> let's be clear.

>> Yes, it felt like on whatever. Yeah.

>> Uh, and so Porsche has now started using

turbocharging. And then at the same

time, the RS, which was previously

naturally aspirated, they started

running those with turbochargers also,

which was called the the RSR, which is

the racing version of the RS. uh they

had a a displacement adjustment factor

which would basically say if you ran

force induction then you got less

cylinder displacement and so those were

2.14

uh L with a turbocharger which with

their multiplier made it be 3 L

equivalent naturally aspirated. So

Porsche starts running turbochargers in

the early '7s in both the like 911 based

cars and these outlandish Can-Am cars.

Uh and Porsche absolutely dominated

CANAM in 7273. So that was good. They

got two more racing seasons year

>> revenge of PA

>> out of uh the 917 after it was no longer

allowed to do you know leal and

endurance racing which was much more

structured especially after from 72

>> onward. So uh then in order to keep

racing these cars they had to u build a

road car that was turbocharged um based

on the GT rules. uh and enter the 930.

Uh so the 930 was a turbocharged 911

that in

it didn't really replace the Carrera RS.

It was a very different type of car

>> in terms of racing effort. I guess one

could say it did, but certainly not in

personality.

>> Yes. And not in terms of the the

character of the car or the way they

were trimmed. The RS because they were

trying to build naturally aspirated.

They were not trying they were building

naturally aspirated cars and so they

were really concerned about reducing

weight.

Uh, and so that there was a very

stripped down GT3ish ethos to the

Carrera RS. Uh, and the 930 was a luxury

car in the sense that they came standard

with rear windshield wipers and

headlight washers and sunroofs and, you

know, full leather trim and air

conditioning and all that stuff. It was

like a It was almost like a

Mercedesification or like a GTification

of the 911 in a way that was very

opposite to the Carrera RS. Uh but the

performance was very different from a

Mercedes because the cars made a lot of

power

>> in a straight line.

>> In a straight line. So when I did the

research on this, 1975 was the first

year of full emissions regs in the US.

um car and driver tested a 930 and it

did 0 to 60 in 4.9 seconds and the next

closest car to that was I think it was

77 so it's 3 seconds longer think about

that I mean this wasn't just holy [ __ ]

fast this was Bugatti Veyron fast when

compared to everything else on the road

>> um now we couldn't get there were some

Euro cars that we couldn't get in 1975

for example like you know

es and boxers and Aston Martin.

>> You'll often read that the 930 was the

fastest car in in the world. It was not.

It was the probably the quickest

accelerating car in the world. Certainly

in the US. Um it was one it was the

fastest car you could buy 156 mph top

speed. Fastest car in America cuz we

couldn't have a Countach which did 170

something.

>> And the Daytona also did

>> 170 something but it disappeared after

73

>> in the US. Um

>> and elsewhere.

>> And elsewhere. Yeah.

>> And we didn't get its replacement. The

replacement was the boxer and that was

Euro only.

>> Um, so when you say fast,

>> yes.

>> I mean, three seconds quicker to 60 than

the next closest.

>> When it's on boost, it's unreal how fast

it is. And when it's off boost, it it's

unreal how slow it is.

>> To this day, I mean, so I had Anthony

Espazito in the car for me for one of

the one of the things and I he you know,

he asked me before we got in the car,

"What do you think?" I'm like, "You will

not believe." Now, Anthony has a GTI, a

Mark 7 GTI. Um he's had plenty he's

driven everything really really fast and

I'm like it is faster than your GTI and

he just gave me a look like [ __ ]

like you know stop exaggerating Kamisa.

Um so we're kind of driving around and I

finally let it get full boost in

probably second gear whatever it was and

he just loud out holy [ __ ] it is

exclaim out loud fast it is when it's on

boost

>> GTI quick or modern GTI quick or more.

Yeah wow fast. Yeah. Boost starts at

3500

>> and it's a four-speed and the gear

ratios are very wide.

>> Really widely spaced.

>> Yeah. And so if they were able to get

49, you you bet your bottom dollar that

was a redline clutch dump.

>> That was probably a redline clutch slip

because you can't let the revs drop. You

slip it to maintain boost to make sure

you stay above 4,000 RPM the entire

time.

>> Incredibly abusive. I would have never

done that. But when we we were filming,

the camera car would move out and you'd

hear on the radio you Anthony on the

radio. All right, we're moving out.

Crying. All right, come on. Pass us. And

he was like, "Pass us, Jason. Pass us,

Jason. Jason, Jason." And he thought I

wasn't paying attention. And our radios

are set up that we can't both talk at

the same time. And I'm waiting. I'm

waiting. And finally, I'm like, "I've

been floored since before you started

moving." Like, I saw they were about to

move out. And it's just

we were at a little bit couple thousand

feet of elevation. I think nothing two

or three,000 feet, but it was staggering

how long it took for that thing to

respond. And then once it did, like we

said, genuinely fast. Um,

>> all hell breaks loose. And the trick

that the race car drivers would use is

to um keep your left foot brake and keep

your foot on the throttle to maintain

the turbo speed. Uh, but that doesn't

work in the road cars. I've tried.

>> It does. Oh, I did. I mean, I had to do

it because he, you know, Anthony would

be

>> Yeah. It doesn't make it go fast. Like

on a race car, you'll actually go fast

if you do that.

>> Well, yeah. Filming is a strange thing

because, you know, we're coming around a

corner. He's sort of looking at the

camera waiting for the the horizon to

become and then all of a sudden he needs

me to blow by and so I'm sort of hiding

out of range and I need to be able to

move when he said so I would drag brakes

at full throttle and just and then let

it go and the car would take off. But um

a challenge a challenging car to drive

quickly. If you are able to stay in the

boost, it's magic. But if you can't, you

can gear

>> on Yeah. On a racetrack though, if you

have properly chosen gear ratios on the

right racetrack, it's unmatched how fast

those cars are. But, uh, if you don't

have those things at your disposal, if

you can't do that, then it's in the real

world, it's an extremely frustrating car

to drive.

I I would venture to say having not

driven them back toback a regular

Carrera which so the turbo is 100 260

horsepower and a regular Carrera regular

the Carrera was 160 uh in 1975 according

to Car and Driver anyway. So 100

horsepower difference between them. I

would venture to say that the NA car was

marketkedly quicker in the real world

than the turbo car was.

>> Um but

>> big huge flared rear rear end wheel

>> front end too.

>> Yep.

>> Wow. I mean, I I didn't look visually. I

mean,

>> yeah, the front end is wider and the

rear end.

>> Car is stunning. Um, plus plaid seats,

which, you know, makes me happy in this

particular car.

>> Um, yeah, I did not the the only one

thing that stood out to me that was

amazing were the brakes and apparently

this early car has like

>> you have the alloy S calipers.

>> Mhm.

>> Which are they upgraded?

>> They upgraded later. I They were

unbelievable. Like this car stopped on a

dime. the the amount of additional brake

force that you would get on a just rock

hard pedal. The bra they felt amazing.

They un truly unbelievable.

>> Every torsion bar 911 is like this.

They're really easy to modulate. They're

firm and they feel wooden, but there's a

direct linearity between how much force

you apply and how much retardation you

get. They're extremely great for for

modulation

>> threshold break. Yeah, it was un truly

unbelievable. the rest of the car. I

have a hard time with 911s. And so you

this is you speak this language. You

drive these cars regularly. The the

bottom hinge pedals give a, you know, a

distinct arc. That's kind of

>> I don't even notice it. Everyone

complains about it. I don't

>> It's not a complaint for me, but it's

definitely a like you meet someone who's

got a really really thick Scottish

accent or some, you know, thick accent

of any sort and it takes a second for

you to start to map out what what their

vowels sound and how like try to

understand them. I feel that way every

time I get an aircooled car. The driving

position is weird. The the pedals are

weird. The controls are weird. The

shifters are all terrible. Um terrible

is the wrong word.

>> Until 1987,

>> right? They just All of these aircooled

cars speak a language that I'm not

fluent in and always take me a long

minute

>> to get used to. And what I thought was

this 1975

um Porsche, if I got into a 1975 Golf by

comparison, I think I would have an

easier time in the Golf. Now, I'm

familiar with a Mark 1 Volkswagen.

There's But there's the Golf felt 15

years newer.

>> It is.

>> It is. Yes.

>> Um it felt like an old old an old car in

1975 already.

>> Yes. I mean, when the So that

transmission, which is I don't know if

it's an improvement over the 901. The

901 was the first 5-speed Porsche

gearbox. It's a dog leg. This was the

915, which came out in '72, which is not

a dog leg. And I remember reading like

articles about the Carrera from 197475.

And they were complaining about the

transmission being old-fashioned then.

And then, don't worry, they kept it in

production for another dozen years uh

until 1986 was the last year you could

get that transmission. Uh it's a vague

shifter that has no centering in the 34

axis. So, good luck finding a gear. Um,

and every one of them is different as

the bushings wear, so that's also

festive, I guess. Um,

uh, so, and they're not super durable

gearboxes either, which is why the

turbos have four speeds and not five is

because the 5-speed gearbox was not up

to the challenge. So, all that was

rectified with the the new G50 gearbox

that they introduced in 1987 for the

Carrera, and it wasn't only it wasn't

available in the 930 until ' 89,

>> right?

>> Which helps. You have more

>> closer space.

gear ratios. It makes a big difference.

Like I think that the car crosses when

it goes from a four-speed to a 5-speed,

it crosses crosses the threshold from

like unusably frustrating to tolerable.

Um, when you put the 5-speed, it still

has the same character, but there's just

the the thing that's most objectionable

about these four-speed cars is there are

certain situations where you're like, I

would like to get over there as quickly

as possible, or I would like to move out

now, and the car is just like, that's

not available. You can't do it. There's

no gear you can choose that will give

you that outcome. So, you must wait,

>> right?

>> And that's extremely frustrating for

someone who likes, you know, a

responsive naturally aspirated.

>> Plus, it doesn't sound particularly

great.

>> No, it's it muffles the noise and it

reduces the red line because the turbo

has to be sized. I mean, as it is, the

turbo is big. Uh, and so that means that

it's useless down low, but it gives you

the power up top. But there is a fairly

narrow window during which the turbo is

happy and above it is too fast for the

turbo and below it's too slow for the

turbo. And so that's why people went to

smaller twin turbos or even different

you know sequential setups. But you know

it's it's there's a lot of compromises

associated with turbocharging that

you're willing to make in a racing

environment that I don't think make for

a great driver's car. And that's why a

lot of the cars were crashed backwards

when they were new because people say

nothing's happening more throttle.

Nothing's happening. More throttle.

Nothing's happening. More throttle. And

then all of a sudden the power

horsepower literally doubles. And if the

car is doing any level of of cornering

at that moment is pointed anywhere other

than directly straight ahead, then the

car loops and then you crash backwards

into stuff.

>> And it can loop for a number of reasons.

Number one, it breaks the brakes

traction at the rear or even worse

starts to accelerate so hard that you

start to steer and then you lift.

>> Now you've rear guaranteed what you're

hitting. I mean this is this is why this

car has the reputation. I had no moments

the car I I found.

>> No. If you know the attributes and you

know that power is coming at 3500 RPM,

then you can temper your inputs and

behavior to never be caught out by it.

>> But if somebody's really frustrated and

or doesn't understand the sort of

trade-offs or the dynamics, especially,

you know, if you imagine this being the

top-of-the-line luxury model that such

as a 911 could be in that period, then

the type of person buying it is not

necessarily race car driver. That race

car driver oriented person is going to

buy a Carrera instead, right? Cuz the

Carrera at that time, there was the base

911, there was the 911s, and then there

was the Carrera, which was the spiciest

naturally aspirated car. Although for

the US market, they were all had the

same engine, but you at least got the

wider flares and the sport suspension

and a tail. Um, and but in Europe, the

Carrera at that point still was the the

old Carrera 2.7 MFI engine. So, it had

210 horsepower, and that is basically

indistinguishable driving

experience-wise from a 73 RS. Uh, and so

the Carrera still meant something in

Europe. And then it was replaced for 76

with a 3 Carrera, which is a naturally

aspirated high compression version of

the 930 engine, 3 L instead of 2.7.

>> And that's a pretty unique car that's

pretty fun to drive. How

>> far is that?

>> 200.

>> Wow. Okay. Um, so for me, the the crazy

thing is that Porsche execs, of course,

Germans that never understand their own

marketing, right, and never understood

understand their own product planning,

didn't think they'd be able to sell the

400. So this was as a homologation car.

The first street car ever with the

Porsche, the turbo engine was given as a

gift to Luis P.

>> Yes. And it has a tartan stripe on the

side that says Porsche. It's

narrowbodied. It's silver. It's got a

crazy plaid interior. It's very cool

looking.

>> That is cool. Um but then they had to

sell 400 of them within 24 months for a

racing homologation. Did not think they

could do it.

>> This is exactly what happened with the

73 RS.

>> Exactly what happened with the Golf GTI.

It's exactly what happened with every

cold German car ever that we are never

going to sell this and [ __ ] now we can't

produce them quickly enough.

>> This happened with a 6.3 also.

>> Yep. Just typical Mercedes like they

typical of German car companies. They

don't know what they have

>> consumers want

>> and they stumble across it. But yeah,

they w up selling what 22,000 or

something 930 turbos overall when they

only had to sell 400 and didn't think

they'd be able to do it. Mhm.

>> Um uh and so ultimately the car got you

know obviously displacement pump 3

liters 33 and then

>> added intercooler intercooling. This is

1978 model year

>> uh and then killed off when the 964 came

out.

>> Well yeah and we didn't get it in the

United States. So the 930 was available

in the United States market in 76,778

and 79 and then from 80 to 85 it wasn't

available and this leads to the creation

of the turbo look which was actually

>> not available.

>> Uh they couldn't meet emissions. Uh, and

so, uh, we got the turbo look, which is,

you know, in the 80s you need something

that looks like that. And so, that's

actually the car to have is the turbo

look, uh, because it has the flares and

the suspension and the brakes of a turbo

with the Carrera, normal naturally

aspirated Carrera engine with a 5-speed.

Uh, and those cars are quite collectible

now, and they're, I think, better to

drive. Uh, they're slower than a

standard Carrera and they have more

grip. So, I actually still prefer the

narrow cars. Um, because you get more

playfulness and less weight and less

drag. Uh, but if you could put a big

enough naturally aspirated engine in a

turbo look, then you end up with

something that is far more compelling to

me than a than a turbo.

>> So, yes, it it's produced until 89. One

year only, 5-speed in ' 89. Uh, and then

the 964 turbo arrives for US 1991 model

year.

>> All right. So, 964, that's the car

behind us. But that's not that's your

car. That's not a turbo.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh 964. Big updates to the car. So power

steering.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh 5-speed obviously for the turbo.

>> Um

>> ABS,

>> anti-lock brakes,

>> Mcerson strut suspension instead of

torsion bars.

>> Torsion bars. Um I have never driven one

of those turbos.

>> It feels a lot like an 89 in terms of

powertrain. uh which is kind of you know

we we have this discussion about we

simultaneously [ __ ] on old turbocharged

cars and then also sort of enjoy them

and I think a lot of it has to do with

gear ratios uh four-speed absolutely

non-starter with the 5-speed it's kind

of okay and you have this old-fashioned

very overtly turbocharged you know it's

still laggy so the normal 964 went to

3.6 6 L when it came out, but the the

964 turbo initially remained at 3.3 L,

>> right?

>> Uh and they just didn't and it was still

um CIS also. Uh which the regular cars

were not the regular cars had gone to

Metronic in the naturally aspirated cars

went to Metronic in ' 84. Um and but the

car they still tuned it for more

horsepower. I think in the US the last

of the 930s. Uh I should also correct

this because I've noticed a lot of

people make this mistake. They refer to

all impact bumper cars as 930, but 930

is only for turbocharged cars. Uh, but

when people say 930 and they're

referring to to impact bumper cars,

generally they should say, yeah, Gbody

body or or impact bumper. Anyway, 315

horsepower from 282, still 3.3 L. Uh,

with the same 5-speed gearbox with a

shorter gear gear shift linkage, you

know, it's is crosses the threshold. Any

5-speed turbo, single turbo 930 to me or

turbocharged 911 is is acceptable for

use and like maybe even enjoyable

although I would ultimately choose the

RS product instead.

>> RS was turbo look.

>> Uh RS would be narrow body but

lightweight GT3 effectively of

>> So there was a 964 RS as well.

>> There was yes. Um and so then they are

initially 33 and then they go to 3.6 6 L

for the late 964 turbos and they also

get for the first time ever I think on a

production car you get red brake

calipers when the 36 turbo comes out. Uh

and those are meab bucks now and those

are the last of the single turbo cars.

Uh those are 94 model year only in the

United States and those are four five

$600,000 now.

>> Wow.

>> Whereas a four-speed 930 is like one or

200,000. A 5-speed 89 930 is like two or

300 as is a 33 964.

>> So mega bucks for 36. But last of the

rear wheel drive turbos last to the

single turbo turbos. And so those are

kind of the beastly cars. And that's

part of why they're so valuable because

it's the last of the like really

exciting maybe too exciting even turbos.

>> Well then the So I again this was not my

video product. I was I was helping out.

The producers w up getting a GT2.

>> Um

>> a 993. GT2.

>> 964. Hold on. Was there a 964? We got a

93. There was no Okay. Sorry.

>> The first GT2 was the 93.

>> 93. Um there was a turbo s lightweight

is what what they had for 964. Yes.

>> Um so that was also still like still

rear drive kind of, you know, still

spicy.

>> That was basically a widebody

964 with a turbo 964 RS with a turbo

engine. So, it has all the sort of it

it's it is functionally it's a

predecessor of a GT2. It's a

>> a paired down RSified rearw wheelel

drive because they were all rear wheel

drive uh

>> turbo,

>> right? So, and GT2 is of course GT3

which is our favorite Porsche just with

the turbos engine

>> effectively. Right.

>> Yes. I mean the there's body work

differences and all that stuff but

fundamentally in in ethos. Yes.

>> Right. So, they got that and then then

93 comes out. 93 comes out famously the

last of the air cooled 911s.

>> Yes. But it does gain in the turbo

four-wheel drive and twin turbos. Y

>> which is you know aimed at reducing the

complaints about um turbo lag

>> and six ratios also helps.

>> And four-wheel drive.

>> Yes. To put down the power.

>> And uh so 93 looks to me I mean I really

have a hard time telling how these cars

apart especially from the back like 964

and 93. I I have to look at the reverse

lights cuz I can't.

>> Oh really? Oh, totally different Beatles

to me. Um, but famously 80% of all parts

were new. This 93 was a big redo.

>> 964 that was 87% new compared to the one

before. Yes.

>> And 993 was 80 according to my research.

So again, they keep doing the same [ __ ]

over and over again. New part, but it

does the same thing. Looks the same.

>> And the windows are interchangeable

between all of them. You can put the

windcreen or the quarter window or any

of the glass in a 993. The doors also,

yes, are interchangeable from a 1963 911

and a 1998 911.

>> So crazy. Um, all right. 93 Turbo that

was also there. There was there that

Patrick Long drove. I was not part of

that whole thing. They got strangely I

will say in a documentary about 911

Turbo, we had a lot of GT2s. Um, which

are, you know, I understand why they're

cooler.

>> It's the pinnacle of the turbocharged

911.

>> Um, although if I were,

>> you could almost categorize a GT2 as a

type of turbo.

>> It is. And that's exactly how I did the

narrative. Although had I chosen the

cars, it would have been things that say

911 Turbo on the back. I appreciated

that.

>> That's very literal.

>> Well, okay. And you can talk about the

racing versions of the car, but it's if

you're doing a thing called the 50 years

of 911 um turbo. Um uh so that was the

993 twin turbo just paired down to rear

wheel drive racing homologation again.

>> Um and then we get to the redheaded

stepchild,

>> the 996.

>> I'm going to make a statement. There was

a beautiful blue 996 turbos, 2002 uh

turbo that that we had there for filming

that was there. I did drive one. I did

drive it. Um I wouldn't say that I would

say that this is the worst 911 I've ever

driven. I would also then go further and

say it's the worst Porsche that I've

driven. And then I would go one step

further.

>> Worse than a 928

>> and say it's the absolute worst sports

car I've ever even by a mile. The worst

sports car I've ever driven.

>> Worse than a 928. an automatic.

>> Oh,

>> it was horrible.

>> So, this transmission is a 5-speed

Mercedes-Benz transmission.

>> Second.

>> Yeah, this is the one that would be used

in like an E55 of that era or a Jaguar.

>> I would rather not say E55. I would say

[ __ ] S 320. I I it was it was tuned

like it should be in a diesel S-Class.

Starts in second unless you floor it.

Uh, and then in which case it takes

quite a while to downshift in a first

and then slurs the shift.

>> Isn't there a sport mode?

>> I think I don't remember. This is months

ago. Um, it was genuinely awful.

>> I think it has a sport mode. There's

also the tiptronic the the shift

>> so you can put it back into first if you

want, but there were times it was

ignoring me. It slurs the shifts. It's

very slow for shifting. So he goes

and strangely hooked up to a torque

converter. That was the worst sounding

flat 6 I've ever heard. And that

includes Subarus.

>> Um it was just guttural. And

>> man, what a [ __ ] horrible. So N let

me let me also be on the record saying

96s aren't as bad as everyone says they

are, right?

>> Yes,

>> they are.

>> They saved the company, right? Let's

just zoom out for a second and say

Porsche had to cost cut the [ __ ] out of

this car or it would there would be no

Porsche and there would therefore no be

no 911. I'm okayish with the cost

cutting, right? I mean, they put the

money where it mattered. The chassis of

the car was great. The suspension

components were great. The engines were

mostly great. The drive the suspension

like all of all of the important stuff

was there. The interior was [ __ ] By the

time the Turbo came out in 2002, they

had figured out a lot of the interior

stuff and and

>> if it was an expensive enough trim of

the car, then a lot of the objections

are addressed because there's leather

where there's plastic normally,

>> but even the plastic got better with

time and um and so by the time you got

to the facelift 996 cars, they weren't

which is that turbo look, you know,

front end, they weren't horrendous. They

were just merely terrible um interior

wise. Now, I had a 2000 911 96 and it

was terrible. Like the interior of that

car was horrid and should have never had

a Porsche badge on it, but I didn't buy

it for its interior. I bought it for its

dynamics, which were pretty damn good.

The automatic absolutely ruined this

car. I mean, beyond

there's no

>> So, this is the first automatic turbo.

It's the first Yeah. First automatic

turbo that was ever offered was the 996.

>> And it was so bad um that if you gave me

the car, I would have said, "No, thank

you."

>> I would I I mean, have you driven one?

Uh, I have driven an automatic early 997

turbo, but I've never Oh, wait. No, yes,

I have. I have driven a silver one.

>> And

>> yeah, I mean, you drive it like a

Mercedes.

>> Yeah, I just

>> It's consistent with the type of person

who was intended to be the 9 the 930 the

the Porsche turbo 911 turbo buyer is

wealthier and older and looking for

speed, but not sport. They're the type

of person who will drive a GT3 and say,

"This rides too hard. I want it." Yeah.

I want it to be more comfortable. And so

it's it's

>> it's a car that is much more likely to

be cross shopped with a Mercedes or, you

know, BMW. It's effectively an SL

competitor with a shitty interior and a

terrible sounding engine.

>> Um although the transmission in any of

the SLS is better than than this was.

Expect look part of it is expectations

based on the badge and what you're what

you're driving. Still a good steering,

not great because it's four-wheel drive.

>> Um, and it was really surprisingly

civilized at very high speeds.

>> Yeah.

>> Easy to go fast. And that's the the core

difference between a GT3/ Carrera RS and

a Turbo. Everyone when the Turbo came

out in the ' 70s, everyone absolutely

mind blown. They were the journalists

were all mind-b blown about how easy and

effortless it was to go fast. If you

launched that car hard and just kept the

pedal down on the autobond until you

were going very fast, they everyone just

could not understand how it could be so

easy and dramafree to go so fast, which

is part which is the fundamental reason

why I think you and I object to the car

because we don't want to go fast. We

want to have fun. And you know, in a

Daytona or a Countach or a Carrera RS or

a GT3, you have more of a sense of going

fast because there's less soundproofing

and the steering is more alive and it's

a little un it's less stable because

it's rear wheel drive and all of those

characteristics that make you feel

closer to the mechanical stuff that's

happening. The Turbo did the opposite of

that and it expanded the ability of

Porsche to reach parts of the, you know,

segments of the market that they had

never served before. And so in some

sense it's you know commercially

beneficial but spiritually the 930 is

almost like a 928 in the sense that you

think of it as a sort of uh more insular

uh fast but not joyful um yeah I look I

I don't disagree with that. I will say

that 996 as a whole really increased the

band I said this in the video really

increased the bandwidth of 911 because

it was bigger and smoother and more

comfortable and it was more luxurious

despite the crappy interior materials.

Um, it was a better luxury car and

really did bridge the gap between 911

and 928, right? It was closer. But 928

to me at least the engine had some

character. It was not an appropriate car

for Porsche in my opinion. It was just

too quote unquote big and heavy, even

though by today's standards it's

neither. Um, but it was too much of a GT

and the 9 insular,

>> right? The 996 Turbo really did take

that over, especially once you can put

an automatic in it. And let me be clear

about this. I'm saying the car is

terrible and whatever else. I just it's

not if you compare the way a 996 turbo

automatic drives to a 996 Carrera 2 base

car with a manual, it's just night and

day, right? The the engine in the base

car sounds great. The engine and turbo

sounds

>> uninspired. Um the turbo is an order of

magnitude faster. It's very fast.

>> It's a genuinely swift car.

>> Laggy as [ __ ] again. But the nice thing

about a l loose torque converter is you

can make up for a lot of that.

>> Not laggy like a 930.

>> Not much is. But yes.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. Especially with an automatic. You

have torque converter and you have, you

know, the the ability to just slip uh

through gears and not lose boost on

gears. So it just pulls and pulls and

pulls and pulls and pulls and pulls. Um

but I just other than someone who wants

a Mercedes SL type car, I don't see why

you'd buy a 96 turbo. I mean with a

manual they're obviously desired and

they are becoming increasingly

collectible and this baffles me but I am

just anacronistic. I am the world is

passing me by and I'm not picking up

with the with the you know people who

are 10 years younger than me. The 996 is

a sentimental like emotionally

significant car because it is the 911

from their childhood and that is an

aspirational car for them and so that

drives them to become genuinely

collectible and it will never be a car

that resonates with me but there is a

whole generation

>> I mean I will I like driving them and I

would own one but it would be sort of

like the way that I own a GTI which is

to say like I like all of the stuff that

it does and I would almost use it like

I've owned one 996 and I quite enjoyed

it but it was $17,000 It was a speed

yellow C2 coupe with an exhaust that was

lowered. And I was like, "Wow, this

drives like a 911. It was $17,000. I'm

commuting in it. This is such a more

exciting and interesting thing to

commute in than my 3 series diesel that

I had before,

>> which is probably twice as valuable,

right?

>> No, but it was more I I Yeah, I I

pocketed, you know, five grand and

bought a 911 and commuted in it. Uh, and

so it was yellow and it had yellow seat

belts and yellow stitching and full

leather and aluminum trim interior trim.

It was as nice as you could ever make a

a 996 and I loved it at $17,000, but I

loved that it was $17,000. And if it was

$60,000, I wouldn't have loved it as

much because it didn't it didn't provide

me with $60,000 of utility. That car

today is, I don't know, 25 or $27,000.

It's still a good value. It's still a

good value

>> because they do drive well. Yes, it does

drive well, but it's not a car that like

I like I vividly remember the first time

I the first 911 I ever bought that was

my own was an aircooled car was an 87

Carrera 32 and I remember being like

this is one of the like most memorable

moments of my life and like looking at

it was sunset and I'm looking at the

silhouette of the car and I'm like I see

a 911 silhouette and like I'm driving my

own 911 for the and that feeling I don't

ever get anything remotely close to that

when I drive a 96 but I do get my first

Porsche was a 96 and I did have that

feeling

>> so I I don't have the nostalgia for I

mean, I don't miss it. I don't I don't

want another one. But I did I sort of

made a deal from with myself that I was

going to buy myself a real sports car.

And I went sort of through a whole bunch

of different stuff. And then I had

friends who worked for the car magazines

um and were like, "Just buy drive a

911." And I'm like, "Oh god, you guys

with these, you know, stupid ass engine

Nazi sleds, blah blah blah blah blah."

And I drove it and I bought one. It was

just there was nothing else on the

market that drove the way that thing

does. And this was towards the end of N.

This was from in 2005.

February of January or February05 is

when I bought it. So, it was probably

late '04. So, it was still in

dealerships new. I did certainly did not

buy a new one. Um, but it was magical. I

mean, the the the noise that it made,

the fact that it came from behind you,

that steering was epic. I mean, the

steering was amazing. The brakes were

unbelievable. Um, and I just got in the

car and I thought, I'd burn a datu for

an interior like this. But then, as soon

as I started driving, I was like, "This

is it. It's done. I want one." Um, so I

can see how people can have that

nostalgia moment. A, because it's of

their childhood and B, because it's an

unmatchable driving experience

outside of other 911s.

>> Exactly. And that's where the big hangup

is for me. But there's obviously a lot

of people who don't feel that way

because 996 turbos are 100 grand now.

And, you know, I thought they were very

interesting at 40, at least for the

performance you could get cuz it's 420

horsepower and

>> does 0 to 60 in 4.0 seconds. if you do a

clutch dump and you know they're not

fast in the real world. You can make

them insanely fast with even more lag

and whatnot. I but you know me and

turbos but I mean if you're of that

generation where you want ABS and you

want stability control and you want dual

airbags and you want some measure of

safety and modern computerc controlled

everything well then there is I see a

world I understand why people drive

996s. If on the other hand, you choose a

996 turbo and it's not because you want

a four-wheel drive car and you couldn't

find a Carrera 4, I don't understand

your motives. You're you're you're you

shouldn't have a Porsche. Is that harsh

to say?

>> There are reasons to buy a car other

than how it drives.

>> Yeah, I would buy that 1975 930 because

of how it looked.

>> Exactly. And I think that the Turbo

probably the 96 Turbo probably does that

for someone. I'm much better looking

than a regular because I don't know. I

don't know. It's the top of the line.

It's the car that they aspire to, you

know? It's this thing.

>> I should say a turbo automatic. Let me

qualify that

>> cuz it's just

>> I mean, do you think the manual is

saves it?

>> That automatic was so terrible that Yes.

>> I mean, if it if it was like I Okay,

we'll get on to the later stuff, but I

was there in a 992 Turbo S. That's

automatic, too. Didn't bother me.

>> It was just a great automatic. Well,

transmissions have come a long way,

>> right?

>> Um, manuals haven't. They sort of

stopped getting better and that's why

>> Okay, so 997

>> 997 So 997 comes out. I was in the

industry when in the industry when that

happened and I was sitting at a red

light with a minivan next to me and I

>> I hate where this is going, but I know

exactly where it's going. What were you

What were you driving?

>> I was driving a 97

just base turbo. It was not

>> manual. Uh, automatic.

>> Oh, it's the same transmission.

>> Okay. And I remember the light turning

green and moving out and realizing

shortly as we're moving off that my lane

was about to end. And I thought, "Oh,

I've read all of these things from all

the preview drives from these cars by my

colleagues at Car and Driver and Road

and Track and all these other people

that they this has variable turbine

geometry turbos, VTG turbos, and it has

no lag." And I thought, "Oh, this is

going to be amazing. This minivan is

toast." And I hear and the minivan

floors it when they realize that my

lane's about to end. And they're doing

exactly what you and I would do to the

other person. Like, you know, show them

boss a mini minivan. And I floored it

and the [ __ ] thing wouldn't

downshift. And I actually lost that drag

race to a Chrysler minivan. And this is

before the Pentastar. So, this is

probably like a three three four liter

or whatever that [ __ ] pile was

Mitsubishi engine that was used. or the

4 liter push rod Chrysler. Either way, I

was violent about this because

>> the transmission refused to downshift. I

was stuck in second gear and I remember

tapping down to first and it ignored me.

Um, and I was just sitting there in this

no man's land of 2200 RPM in second

gear,

nothing. And I thought, my colleagues

have gotten this wrong.

>> All you're doing is complaining about

automatics. There's like there's going

to be an arm.

>> Those were not that better. there there

were that engine was laggy as [ __ ]

>> still.

And so if you have all of this

technology in there to make it quote

unquote lag free, which it most

certainly was not, then then don't make

it almost as laggy as a 930. I I don't I

do not love 97 turbos.

>> Mhm.

>> Do you?

>> No.

>> Okay. So why you fighting fighting with

me?

>> I don't know. I just Yeah. I don't know.

97 97s were the high point of the

watercooled

911 for me because I think they were the

they had the best steering of all of

them.

>> Um, and I have driven a couple 97s that

really lit my hair on fire. GT3s which

were amazing and even a GT2 which was

>> shocked the hell out of me because you

know I don't love turbos. I adored that

that GT2. It was amazing. It was raw. It

was guttural. It made fabulous noises.

It had a great manual and it just did

everything really well. So,

>> so why do you think there was such a

difference between this 997 turbo and

the GT2?

>> I probably

>> shouldn't the GT2 have larger turbos and

therefore more lag.

>> It possibly where I drove it cuz I drove

it more on I drove it almost actually

possibly exclusively on track. I don't

remember if I

>> which Okay, it's a GT2. Yeah, maybe

that's how it got me.

>> But you were never drag racing a minivan

in a GT2.

>> No. And admittedly that minivan was to

your point an automatic. I just I where

you're stuck. You're just stuck.

>> You mean the 997 turbo?

>> The 97 turbo.

>> They were both automatics.

>> Automatics. The

may even race the car. I just It was the

same feeling to me. The 997 turbo

automatic was the same feeling to me as

the 930 was. I'm trapped.

>> Yes.

>> There is nothing I can do. I'm at the

mercy of turbo lag and trans gearing and

whatnot. I just can't beat a minivan and

I paid how much for a Porsche. Like I

just it's just a non-starter for me.

>> Yep. I'm with you.

>> Starter. Um that's it.

>> Otherwise 997 innovations. Anything else

that that did? Well 97 wound up getting

PDK.

>> Mhm.

>> For the facelift.

>> For the facelift. That was

transformative.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but I don't remember if I ever drove

a PDK 997 Turbo. Don't think I did. the

transformative for the other cars.

That's when the automatic went from to

being

>> a handicap to being like a genuine

contender for

>> an alternative if you sure don't can't

drive a stick, I guess.

>> Um 911 Turbo. You spend any time with

them?

>> Yeah, I've driven at least one. It was

silver with a red interior

>> and

>> I don't remember it.

>> That's not good. You remember

everything.

Um, 911's my least favorite generation

of of 911s, I think. Um, I just I didn't

care for the steering when they came

out. I thought they were probably one of

the best looking uh generations. Um, but

I don't I didn't care for steering. I

didn't care for

the cabin. I just thought it became a

large paname coupe thing. M

>> um and so I don't remember I remember

sliding a 911 91 around a racetrack

quite a bit and being astonished at how

dynamically competent the car was both

in terms of its limits and its limit

performance. It was just genuinely

amazing car

>> turbo. I mean I've driven I think I

drove all of them. In fact I know I did

target t target four target

>> well those are not turbos. Those are No,

I mean, but I think I drove every I

think I've driven every single variant

of the

>> of the 991 um and and including

obviously GT3, which is my favorite um

of them all.

>> R,

which is a GT3 RS kind of um

effectively. Um but yeah, no, Turbo just

again, respect for its speed because now

it's kind of usable in the real world.

Um and then of course it became

automatic only after that. just sort of

fell off my Christmas card list because

I don't care for an automatic car. But

the 992, I don't like 992 better than I

like 99. Um, I don't care for the

interior. There's too many screens. I

don't love the infotainment. Um, I think

it's cheaper. It looks cheaper. It feels

cheaper. It's a lot louder in the car.

Um, between the road noise of the tires

in the back for whatever reason and uh

and rattles. Um, I just not quite as

quality, I guess, as the 911 was, but

holy [ __ ] that car is so fast and it's

so usably fast. Also,

>> did you drive or have you driven yet the

hybrid one?

>> I haven't. So, we had Henry Catch do

that segment cuz he was on the launch of

that car and what he said is basically

what I've heard everywhere else, which

is the lag is now gone. Like they've

fixed the electric turbos have fixed the

problem of turbochargers. Um, and so I

look forward to driving that. Uh, I

don't think I will love it more than I

than I love a GT3 or, god forbid, a 911

ST. Well, yes, and this is the

fundamental conclusion that we're

reaching after [ __ ] on these cars

continuously for however long we've been

doing it, is that the target demographic

or audience for this car is not you or

I. It's somebody who's richer and older

in spirit and maybe actually also. Um,

but it's a it's it is a car you buy if

you want effortless speed. If you're

seeking speed with minimum drama,

maximum safety and in comfort and with

features and all that stuff, the the

turbo is the car you buy. And so in that

sense, it is kind of the flagship of the

range. Uh, and then the other cars you

buy if you have more sporting intent,

you know, or that if you from a driving

perspective at least, although now GT

cars are being bought by everybody

because it's such a mainstream brand and

it's so desirable to have a

>> Oh, but it's also so obvious to even

people who don't know how to drive them.

You rev one of those things to 9,000 RPM

and just shuts everyone up.

>> Yes. Yes. It's an unmatched experience.

You can't get that in a lot of places,

especially with a with a manual

transmission. I just drove a GT3 RS uh

on on the racetrack quite extensively in

in filming. The car is just

indescribably good. It's just

indescribably good. And having driven

that right after spending quite some

time in that N Turbo S 50th anniversary

edition, I can say there is a place for

both of them. I, you know, you said

we're [ __ ] on them, it's from a

journalistic point of view, I see I see

benefits to either, right? Effortless

speed like you said and it always

surprises me to find out people like

Walter Rural, he drives a turbo every

day. Doesn't want a GT car.

>> Well, I mean,

>> he's 143.

>> Every day I would drive an S-Class. It's

kind of the same thing.

>> Why not have an S-Class?

>> I don't know. Because what if he wants

to go as quickly as possible with just,

you know, with his eyes closed? That's

effectively what the car does, right?

It's like an all-weather go as fast as

you can. you know, an S-Class if you

needed to hustle down a really good like

I was having this thought the other day

because I used to daily a GTI and I one

of the things that I miss about the GTI,

which I don't get if I'm dailying my

265,000 mi E320 station wagon is that if

a very good piece of road comes along or

some insucient person in a in another

motor car needs to be shown what's what,

then then the GTI is at my disposal to

sort of like have

>> spends with that in.

>> Yes. Exactly. and and I can't do that in

my in my 265,000 mi E320 wagon. And so

if you're daily driving like something

that's kind of S-classy a lot of the

time, but then all of a sudden if you

need if you encounter some really good

piece of road or you get a clover leaf

that's clear or you know you you find a

I don't know some person who needs to be

taught a lesson or something like that

or you're on a long distance road trip

that's also has some good roads on it

then it's kind of a good allround

device.

>> Sure. Get an S63 AMG if you want an

S-class. Oh, an S63 will never be able

to do, you know, what a turbo can do.

>> Oh, not what a turbo can do, but it'll

show the peasants who's boss. I mean,

>> yeah, I guess on a back road. I mean,

look, what we're saying is multitaskers,

right? This is nice. There's nice t It's

always nice to have your daily that does

it all.

>> Yes. And Turbo, I think, is very good at

doing that. Better than most anything

else I can think of.

>> I don't think there's any car. So, I

always sort of use a Nissan GTR as the

benchmark for a car that I would take on

a really, you know, if I had to outrun

the boogeyman. Um, but I think it's, you

know, obviously the GTR is now very old.

It's turbo at this point.

>> Yes. Yes. If if you want speed with

minimum like and you're just the speed

is the goal and like sure-footedness.

>> Well, right. So, you could get even more

speed with a Tesla Model S Plaid, for

example. But what I like about even even

the turbos that I hate is that the

chassis tuning is brilliant. So like the

that turbo is it's speed but it's not

like it's it doesn't it doesn't do for

example what a computer controlled

electric car can do for example which is

just put it all down. It is ass first

right. It's coming around a corner you

under with power over steer and it is a

real true driver's car. And so I what I

really appreciate is that that DNA has

made it through all the way to 992.1

turbo was the latest one I've driven. Um

I do love that. So it does you can take

advantage of it as a real driver and

someone who really wants to push above

the limit.

>> Well, so now we've answered why Valter

Royal drives a turbo every day. I guess

>> I just I could never I I just can't

imagine. I'm too much of a fan of revs,

I guess, and induction noise to drive a

turbo. Now that somehow there's crazy

music coming in that like a 91 92 turbo

there. There's stuff coming into that

car that I know is fake cuz I just don't

think it's possible to have that much

sound coming through the induction

system of a car. So, I think there's a

speaker somewhere. Um, but it's just so

well done that it doesn't offend me. Um,

I don't know how they did it. Somebody

may prove prove me wrong and fine. I'm

not going to die in that hill, but I

suspect they're doing something to it.

But the overall experience is pretty

damn good. Unless you've driven a GT3,

in which case then it's like just

>> And now the GT3 rides in a civil enough

way since the 991 came out that you

could plausibly daily it.

>> Totally. You could easily daily a GT3.

Um I

>> depends how old you are and what you're

willing to tolerate.

>> I mean, okay, fair enough. But I would

say I I would have like a 997 GT3. I've

said this before. Wow.

>> Yeah. I'm not a great daily.

>> Oh god, no. Which makes it a perfect

daily for me. Like I would love to daily

that car, but it would you would need

knee surgery on your left knee. Like and

you might break your right wrist. The

shifter is really high effort. The

clutch is brutal. The car just chatters

the engine. The clutch chatters your

teeth out. I love it. Love it as a

sports car.

>> Um but I think it's

>> a great classic.

>> Yeah. I I I don't think it's any worse

as a daily driver than listening like a

Lotus Elise. No. far far more

interesting and far more

>> um complex.

>> Yeah. So um we're not turbo customers.

If you had to have one, which one would

it be?

>> 997. If something turbocharged would be

a 97.

>> No, no, no. If you had to have a Porsche

Turbo, it can't be a GT car.

>> Mm-

>> Oh.

Uh can I swap the motor out?

>> No.

>> [ __ ] because then it would be the night

it would be 9:30 and I threw up. Um

pro Oh.

Oh,

I gotta go. Where's my boss?

>> Jason has to leave. I'm driving through

a tunnel.

>> I don't I don't know. Um

Wow.

>> So Jason wants no turbos. No 911 turbos.

>> I want no turbos. But if I had to have

one,

>> right? So I mean 992 is out automatic.

That's the best. Objectively, that is

the best car of the bunch. Out because

no automatic. Uh, no manual. 911 out

because no automatic. Uh, no manual.

Sorry. Um, for me personally, 997 best

steering of the bunch.

>> 2 you could get with center locks.

>> I would never want center locks.

>> They're so sexy looking though.

>> They're sexy looking, but you can also

get TSW Hawkenheim RS with a cap that

makes it look like that. And you have

regular things. You

>> GT3s all have center locks.

>> Yeah, they're stupid. I would have my

GT3 custom built with logs. It's dumb.

The center lock is another excuse me for

saying fetishized rich Porsche dick bag

thing, right? I understand the appeal of

center locks. That's what they use in

racing. Blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah. But you are buying a car that you

can only ro you can only torque the

wheels down so many times before you

have to throw them out. Come on. That's

just bad engineering. It's stupid.

>> Jason has uh eluded evaded the question

that I asked.

>> Damn it. Um it would probably be a 97

because I think it's probably the best

at

of all of the

97.

>> I've never driven a 964 and I don't

always love the way 993s drive. So,

>> I don't like the 93 because it's the

four-wheel drive.

>> So, you would of course have another 964

because

>> I'd have a 96436 turbo. Yeah. Because

it's the the the least like offensive

uh of the um single turbo cars. I'd want

a rear wheel drive one. Uh, and so and

I'd want the 5-speed.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's the best of the five-speed

rear wheel drive turbos.

>> Okay. I will defer to your knowledge

because I have not driven one and say

that

>> it's a car where you engage the where

you purposely seek out the

turbochargedness and it becomes an

amusing part of the car's character like

you would with a Renault R5 turbo, you

know, like then you're like embracing

the turbo or an RS2, right? You're like,

"Okay, I'm specifically signing up for

like the period turboness of this car as

a vintage experience.

What's the last one you'd have?

>> The last one? 996, I think.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Huh? Okay. I I don't

>> Oh, the the the four-speed cars are so

bad.

>> Damn it. I thought that's what you're

going to say. That car was

>> bit of a heartbreaker.

>> Yeah.

>> So beautiful.

>> I mean, I literally like childhood

bedroom wall poster car for me and I

finally bought one in 2014

or something like that. And I had and I

had an a Carrera 32 at the same time. I

would literally go down and look at the

I wouldn't even have to go down and

look. I would before I was I was walking

out the door before I'd go down to the

garage, I'd be like, "We're taking the

Carrera 32." I put 500 miles on the car

in 18 months of ownership and then of

the turbo.

>> Meanwhile, I'd probably put 20,000 m on

a 32 in the same time or something like

that.

>> I can see that happening. It's it's a

really

>> when you have the choice, you always

choose not the turbo was what I found.

This is the problem. Like literally in

my own garage,

>> I'm asked to do a a sort of history

lesson on turbo and I have to be

objective about that. I'm a journalist,

right? I'm giving a history lesson. This

is these cars had incredible speed under

a strange set of circumstances and or a

limited set of circumstances, especially

in the early

>> in the real world was not accessible.

>> But do you do I not give credit for a

car that's 3 seconds to 60 quicker than

the next that next week's car tested

that year? Like that's a holy [ __ ]

achievement. But it's also part of the

journalist problem with numbers where we

fetishize speed and we really reward

cars that remove like 959 is a perfect

example. We should have one in this

studio so we can just throw paintballs

at it. Um it's just one of those cars.

>> That's probably the biggest heartbreaker

hero I've ever met.

>> 911 Turbo.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean it foreshadowed everything that

911 Turbo became.

>> Y

>> you know computerc controlled all drive.

I think part of also this issue is that

there are so many variants of the 911

and there are so many of them that are

really great that even though like you

could say that objectively the 9 the 911

Turbo is not bad. It's just that for

every 911 Turbo there's like six other

variants that are so much more

gratifying as drivers and they usually

cost less money. Yeah, it's it's it's

it's a bit tough one because even the

bad ones are kind of great and and this

is a lineage that has, let's be honest,

lasted for 50 years. And one of the

points that I make is 2025 down to 1975

is obviously 50 years. 50 years before

1975 was 1925. Um that was in that year.

I did a bunch of research to try to put

that in perspective how long 50 years is

in terms of the march of progress. In

1925, less than half half the households

in the United States had a car.

>> No,

>> electricity.

>> Electricity.

>> So in the time that in the same amount

of time that it's been since that 9/11

came around back from that, half the

households in this country did not have

electric. That is a long long lineage.

And so I when asked to do this, I said,

"Yeah, absolutely." What else has lasted

50 years?

>> The Corvette.

>> Yeah. Also something else I would do a

documentary.

>> Chevrolet Suburban

>> 100% do a documentary on that. Um it's

pretty cool when things last for 50

years, especially when you have car

companies that have lasted for minutes.

>> The BMW 3 series is almost there.

>> 50 years 50 years is 50 years.

>> Is it I thought it was 76.

>> Um I think technically 75 production. So

I think it's been called 50 years. Star

Club magazine just did a 50 years of

three series thing.

>> Um it's sitting on my kitchen counter

right now. I haven't read it yet, but um

yeah. No, it's not that many cars. Like

Accord's not 50 yet either. Camry is

certainly not 50.

>> Civic

Civic is 1974.

>> We're getting close. Anyway, Civic

Civic.

>> That's the point is, you know, Corolla

probably.

>> This is a lineage of cars that, you

know, has made it now 60 years.

>> Um, and one variant. Pretty cool. Also,

the second ever production turbocharged

car. The first ever production sports

car that's turbocharged. um

>> BMW 2002 Turbo.

>> So that was not regular production. So

2002 Turbo 9 Saab9 Turbo was really the

first regular production.

>> If you really want to look back, you

have the Ultimate Jet Fire

>> and the Corv.

>> The Corvair, which were the first two,

but they were very shortlived and not

regular production model. They were a

special variant.

>> They're also not really sporting.

>> Yeah. Um then 999 was the first regular

production turbo and then 930 was the

first regular production

>> a real pioneer.

>> Yeah. Um even if it's not too

>> that we choose to select occasionally.

It's a bang, not a anything else.

>> What what what else would it be? Derek,

are you playing one of those childish

games that's going to get you in trouble

with HR again?

>> What's the What's the word that everyone

puts in the captions? Uh

>> unal alive.

>> Unal alive. Yeah.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Uh, you will unal alive a turbo

and uh marry a

regular 964.

>> That's what I've done.

>> Okay.

>> All right.

>> I will go do I'll just screw

Volkswagens or something.

>> Yes. Volkswagen orig the Porsche

audience is going to tell me to do after

watching this. Go [ __ ] yourself and a

Volkswagen. Well, I'm way ahead of you.

Well, on that bombshell,

thank you for suffering through our

enlightening, uplifting views on the 911

Turbo. We'll maybe see you next week or

similar.

Has The Porsche 911 Turbo Been a Worthy Flagship? — Carmudgeon w/ Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott — Ep 215

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