How Are EVs Doing Without The Federal Tax Credit?

Hello, and welcome to the Truth about Cars podcast. I'm Tim Healy, the managing editor,

and this week we're talking EVs, NASCAR, and more. We chat with IC Cars Carl Rauer about

a post-tax credit EV market, and we recap NASCAR at Atlanta with TTAC contributor Matthew

Guy. We also discuss floor jacks for our stuff we use segment. But first, after this

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eBay, things people love. Just about every week on the Truth about Cars podcast,

we are discussing the stuff that we use in our homes, in our cars, and on our cars,

as a case may be cleaning products, tools, that sort of thing, and almost always have TTAC

contributor Matthew Guy with us, and we do today. So Matthew, how are you doing?

Hi, Tim. I'm doing pretty good, bud. How are you?

I'm well. So let's go ahead and start. We're talking about something we've talked about before,

but it's been quite some time. So it's worth going over again for Jacks.

It is, and I happen to get a new one over the past week because it was funny every now and then.

We'll follow up these posts, follow up these segments on our podcast with a post on the site,

and oftentimes I'll have a shot of the car that I'm working on and stuff, and one of our other

contributors laughed the other day. He said, what's your recommendation for a floor jack to

replace the rusty one you've got? So I did. I finally replaced it. I finally replaced the one

I've got. And there's some good ideas that I think our listeners could benefit from. This one,

the one that I got was DeWalt brand, and DeWalt is pretty well known for hand tools and all kinds

of different things. And this one is really, really, I find that the jack is really well

put together. It's all steel, of course. And there's two things that I really like about it. One is

it's called a two-pump jack, which means that it is a low profile, so it will be able to get under

a lower car like a MX-5 or something is modified, it will be able to get under a bear. And with just

two pumps of the jack handle, one, two, it will come up and rise up against the jacking points of

most cars. And that's a big difference from the jack that I had before, that you had to really pump

five, six, seven, eight times in order for it to rise up enough just to even get up to the bottom

of the car. So I really, really recommend that feature if any of our listeners are looking at

their first floor jack for working on cars. I was in their shop or in their garage. And the other big

thing for me is most jacks now, you can just take the handle and you can twist it. And that releases

the hydraulics and the car will slowly lower down. And my old one was much more mechanical

that there were two gears that needed to mesh in order for that action to happen, right, to release

the hydraulics. And Tim, you know what it's like after working on cars for a decade, those gears

aren't going to mesh anymore, right? So yeah, right, there was a fair bit of manual labor that

you had to do in order to lower the car. So I was I was over the moon picking this thing up from eBay.

Right, you can find these things on eBay. If there's one other recommendation I could give

our listeners when they're looking for a new floor jack is to it's the opposite of what I

recommend when buying a car. When buying a car, like I always try to recommend, like, don't buy

pickup truck if you just need it one day a year, right? Yeah, you can rent a truck if you only need

it one day a year. Exactly, right. And then that being said, people buy whatever the heck they want,

of course, but that's the recommendation. But it's my opposite recommendation for a floor jack

over buy what you need. So in terms of the weight, so this one's weighted at three tons,

I'm not lifting anything close to that. But it's a lot of jacks you can get very, very

cheaply that are only two tons, right? And that might not be quite enough for for what a person

might be doing in the future, even if all you're lifting up right now is a spec miata or, you know,

your first car on the launcher or something like that. Sure, sure. Two tons are probably

sufficient, but go and save your money. Get a good one, get a good jack, get a big one, and you'll

have it for a very long time. What about safety? We always talk about safety in terms of floor

jacks. Very much so. So a good thing to budget for as well when you're buying your first floor

jack is to buy a pair of jack stands. And those are the metal stands that you should put under

your car that are not hydraulic, right? They are just metal stands. And in case something does go

wrong with the hydraulics, it's only for a matter of the seal within the jack to fail unexpectedly,

and that would lower the car on top of you whilst you're working on it. So

no, right? Exactly. So you always want to have a couple of jack stands underneath the proper

jacking points of your car. And it does not add a lot to the bill. So if you can pick up some

good quality jack stands, save for them if you need to and get those to go along with your very

first floor jack. And I think you'll be very happy and very safe. Cool. Anything else we

should discuss when it comes to floor jacks? Pretty straightforward. Pretty straightforward

for a lot of people. But look for I think look for one I think that says double pump design that

seems to be the verbiage that a lot of people use a lot of companies use these days look for

a low profile one and buy one that is more stout than you need. Awesome. Awesome. All right. So

with that, we'll go ahead and close out our stuff we use second here in truth about cars podcast

with Matthew Guy. Matthew, thank you so much. Thank you very much.

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This week on the truth about cars podcast, we are chatting with frequent guest Carl Brower,

the executive analyst at iccars.com. That's I the letter I see like vision secars.com. So Carl,

how are you doing today? I'm doing good. Just keep watching the car industry. It seems like

there's never a dull moment as you are well aware, Tim. And the latest thing that we just looked at

was where EV pricing sits four months, five months after the loss of the EV credit at the end of

September. That's exactly where we have you on to talk about today. So it's been big news,

obviously, for those who watch the industry and as well as consumers who might have been considering

an EV, you know, the expiration of the federal tax credit of I believe it was 7500 bucks at the

end of September 2025. So you guys have taken a look to see how the EV market has rebounded to that.

So or not rebounded, I should say that because that would that would that would paint a picture

of one particular direction. React is the word I'm looking for not rebounded. So walk us through

what you've seen in terms of how EVs and again, we're talking pure EVs here, I believe not just

put not plugins or right or hybrid. So walk us through how battery electric vehicles have

the market for them has reacted to the loss of this tax credit.

Well, you know, you lose $7500 for new and $4000 for used electric vehicles. And so your natural

instinct is to think, well, the price is going to have to drop to counteract that like dealers are

going to have to lower their prices to keep the cars selling. And that's true, but you have to

look close or you won't think it's true. If you look at just the regular EV market, it looks like

the price of electric vehicles has gone up by 3.5% since the end of the credit, which is like,

wow, how could prices go up after you lost the incentive? But we've first of all,

we know market shares drop. So it's like, what's going on, you know, demand the price of electric

vehicles excluding Tesla's has fallen by 3.6%. That's the price. So the price of all the used

electric cars that are not Tesla's is down by 3.6%. Used Tesla prices are up by 4.3%. So that is very

interesting that but because Tesla makes up such a large percentage of the used car market,

they pull up, they looks like the used car market prices have gone up, but they've gone up for Tesla's

4.3%. But they've gone down for everything besides Tesla's and like the Porsche Taycan,

which isn't really a price sensitive car. So that one went up too. But all the rest of the EVs,

really all the mainstream EVs that you would think of things like, you know, Kona's

and Mach-E's and all those cars, they're down by 3.6%. So it's interesting that there's a disparity.

You know, I mean, that's almost a 8% disparity between price direction, you know, Tesla up for

everything else down 3.6%. And I find that interesting that I think what it points to,

probably, is that Tesla fans probably wanted a Tesla and they weren't going to buy one new.

They were waiting for used prices. But between how many are out there and how many people still

want to get a used Tesla, regardless of the $4,000 used EV credit, they're still buying them.

And there's probably not enough out there for how many people still want to buy a used Tesla.

And maybe also when the EV credit dropped, people were like, look, if I have to pay more overall

for an EV, I want to get a Tesla because of the network or because of, I just have more faith in

them, they've been doing it longer, whatever. And I just think Tesla kind of fans are kind of their

own kind of unique market. So it's just been interesting to watch how they were resilient.

Now, what's interesting is the average internal combustion vehicle is also down 2%. So generally

speaking, the used car market has fallen in the last four or five months, but not Tesla's. Now,

on the news side, also real quick, also on the one other point on the news side that was also a

pretty interesting statistic, the used car market share, meaning how many of all the used cars that

are listed now versus in September, what's the share of EVs down by 20%. So there's also just

less EVs out there for sale, probably again, because dealers tried to unload a lot of them

before the credits went away, or people who have them are like, I can't get as much as I want now

anyway, so I'm just going to keep it. But for whatever reason, there are 20% fewer electric

vehicles for sale. And just this past few weeks, then there were at the end of September. And

what's interesting is I was like, well, what about last year? Maybe that was just a seasonal thing.

Last year, it grew 19.5%. From September 30th to the end of January in 24 to 25,

used car market share went up 19.5%. This year, it went down by 20%. So definitely some big shifts

going on that I think are very reflective of the EV credit. Now, you asked about noon on the news

side, it's always tricky because you know, Tesla, you can't get any data on, they don't make their

data available like every other new car seller. But the average price of new EVs, not including

Tesla is down 2.3% since September. And the average price of internal combustion vehicles,

new vehicles is up 2.5%. So it's down to three for EVs, but up to five for non EVs. So that just

to me, that just says that there's still strong market share or strong demand for new cars,

certainly supply demand overall is pushing prices up for non EVs in terms of new cars.

And I think the automakers have been able to see, have basically gotten it down to a science on

limiting production of new cars to ensure that they're always able to sell them around MSRP or

higher, which is still what they go for. They tend to go for about MSRP or higher, the average new

car. Okay. Yeah. So I had a couple of questions, obviously. So my first question is, there was

a bit of a debate, you know, when the credit went away and EV evangelists, as well as those of us,

and I'm not an EV angel, excuse me, evangelists, nor am I an EV hater. I see EVs as I see the

other powertrains, a possible tool, and I see the evangelists of EVs, no tailpipe emissions,

but I also see the disadvantage. You know, there's still still emissions and environmental damage

was there as it produced, but that's neither here nor there. My question is, there was obviously a

debate when the credit was going away, you know, and something that was kind of set in defense in

a very like defense of the credit going away was, oh, well, the credit's not really helping lower

price point buyers because there's not a lot of EVs at lower price point, and it may be just a

giveaway to the rich who can afford a expensive EV anyway. So has that really, have you seen that

back out in your numbers? Or has it been more like, no, this person really could have afforded an EV

with the credit and they can't without the credit and the credit makes all the difference in the

world? Or is it really just a kind of a giveaway to people who could afford an EV either way?

Well, and that's a great question. And I think we have a couple of pieces of data that help us

answer it. First, we know that the market shares down about half, right? Like it was crazy in September

because everyone was buying before it went away, and I think it would apply 12% of new vehicles

were electric. But before that, you know, before like August, September, when everyone knew the

credit was going away, it was averaging around 8% for new vehicles. And it kind of stalled there

from over a year earlier, even before changes in elections and administrations and policies,

new EV sales, market share growth across the country had stalled around 8%.

And then it went up a little bit before the credit went away briefly because people were just like,

well, if I'm going to buy one, I got to do it now. And now it's fallen and it's holding down

around half of that 4%. So I think first, it's obvious that if market share of EVs for new EVs

has dropped by about 50% since the credit went away, the credit was helping sell EVs.

Another telling point that goes right to the price and who's buying them and price sensitivity

that you're talking about is if you look at new EVs, again, not including Tesla because they don't

have the information, but everything else we can track easily. The cars that on the new side are

down the most are lower priced cars. So the average price of an EV is $63,000. So first of all,

that means you got to be kind of wealthy to buy one anyways relative to other cars.

But when you look at the cars that are down the most, 13.8% drop in the price of the Hyundai

Ioniq 5, which was $52,000 in September. Now it's 45%. Next is the Chevy Equinox down 8.7%.

Average price in September 42, average price in January 38. Jeep Wagoneer, Ford F-150 Lightning,

these are all cars that are like higher volume and kind of lower cost,

relatively lower cost EVs. The Kia Niro EV was $39,000 in September. Now it's $37,000,

down 5.5%. What EVs have held steady or gone up? Well, the Audi Sportback, Audi Sportback

e-tron was $67,000. Now it's $70,000. Lucidair, $91,000. Now it's $96,000. Audi Q6 e-tron, $68,000.

Now it's $72,000. Mercedes-Benz EQS was $109,000. Now it's $123,000. So what that says to me again

is kind of what you were saying and some people were saying is that, oh, people don't really care

if they're buying EVs that are not price sensitive. If they're buying expensive EVs,

that was absolutely true. And the prices suggested the car companies aren't even

lowering. They're actually raising the prices on these. And my thinking is that they probably

sold a certain amount of them before the EV credit went away. So they don't have that much supply.

And now their attitude is, if we're selling an EQS, a Mercedes-Benz EQS or a Lucidair,

we're just going to sell it at what we need. We're going to try to make profit back on these

vehicles and we'll wait till a wealthy enough buyer comes along that's not going to dicker on price.

But if you're selling IONIQ 5s and equinoxes, ID buzzes, you're having to

struggle. ID buzzes down 6.6% since September. And of course, that was the hot car that now

they canceled for the next year. So mainstream cars with more mainstream EV pricing, which is

still kind of high, but the lower the cost the EV was, the more impacted it was by losing the

credit and the more it needed, the dealers have to lower prices to keep them moving.

Yeah. Okay. And so you mentioned the cancellation of the buzz. That's a perfect

segue to my next question. Every year, there's always a few models, including EVs that get

killed. So now some come back, Chevy's kind of brought the bolt back and forth a few times now,

and I've lost track of where they are at with the bolt. But how much does that change things too?

Just the normal turnover of a few EVs being either canceled or going on hiatus while they await

a redesign? I think that that's where we're kind of at right now is that everyone is kind of

evaluating the car companies are evaluating, you know, which how many of these cars are we

going to try to sell? And how long are we going to what capacity are we going to try to sell them at

and what level of maybe delay are we going to do if we can? And so I think that's also

contributing to the drop to 4% from 8 is that a lot of cars that were planned a year or more ago

have already been delayed or canceled like the EV buzz that we were or the IB buzz that we were

just talking about. And it's fascinating because some of the cars can't be stopped like you've

probably seen in the news, but Toyota just introduced the Highlander, the next Highlander

for 27 and it's an electric version. But I think that's the reflection as much or more of this

train had left the station and we can't stop it. So that car's coming, whether the EV market we

think is well positioned for it or not, you know, whether the consumer market is ready for another

EV or not, we have to introduce it. Same thing with the Beazy Woodland and the CHR, which also

were just introduced. And I just did my videos on my channel on YouTube. So there's EVs coming

still in spite of some being canceled, like the Lightning and the EV and the ID buzz keep saying

those are gone, but others are still coming. So I think what we're really going to see is just a

much more modest level of production and modest assumptions by dealers and manufacturers on how

many will be sold because we've lost half our market share demand since the credit went away.

Yeah. Okay. So now my next question is, you know, there's we have a debate, I say we

weaving the industry, but also sometimes internally at T-TAC and externally,

and we all have opinions on the matter. And I personally, like I said, I'm not an EV evangelist,

nor am I an EV hater. I would like to see EV growth just because I would like to see emissions cut,

despite what's happening with larger policy. We don't have time to get into the last week's

Trump administration changes that kind of upset me. But you know, I like being able to breathe,

especially as someone who lives in an urban area and having pollution reduced from the tailpipes

is great. But I also understand personal choice. I understand that EVs don't work for everybody.

In my case, I can't charge in my building. Some people find EVs, the range is limiting,

the price is too high. Towing is an issue when you talk about EV trucks and SUVs.

Don't forget cold weather. I was just getting there for some folks. It's cold and hot weather.

You run the AC or the heater and you lose 20%. So obviously EVs, that's a long way of saying that

electric vehicles are still a relatively new technology. The infrastructure support is still

struggling to catch up to the cars. You're still having a hard time finding working fast chargers

in enough places. And even fast charging is still a lot slower than refueling an ICE car

or a hybrid where less than five minutes to fill a tank of gas in a plug-in hybrid or

internal combustion engine car, whereas fast charging is going to be 20 or 30 minutes at the

lowest. So obviously there's a lot to be done before EVs can be adopted mainstream, regardless of

the politics and regardless of consumer preference. They're just not quite the same as ICE cars or

even hybrids at this juncture. Now that may change as technology improves. But where I'm going with

this, that was a really long way of saying the question. I do apologize. But where I'm going with

this is, you know, there are some consumers who are always going to want to buy an EV for whatever

reason, whether it makes them feel good about their political choices or moral or moral choices,

whether they like the silence, the instant torque, not having gas. They can charge it home in some

cases. They just have to outlay a few hundred bucks on a charger once and they're done with it.

A lot of people may have an EV for commuting an ICE or hybrid for road trips or longer drives,

where range might be an issue. There's always going to be a slice of EV consumers and there's

also going to be a slice of consumers who don't really care, right? There are some who just want

the best car for the money and if it's an EV and they can make it fit their life, they will.

And there's a third size of consumers, of course, who either are anti-EV or afraid of EVs and maybe

some of them might come around if they realize the range isn't as bad as they think or whatever

and others might just be like, nah, I'm always going to do internal combustion or hybrid until

I'm forced not to. So I guess my question is, and again, sorry for the long setup here, my question

is, with the tax credit going away, how does it change consumer intent for the people who aren't

so price sensitive? And I'm not even talking about those who are wealthy enough that it doesn't make

a difference. This could include people who maybe were on the borderline, but price just isn't the

main consideration. Well, I think that's who we've seen buying them so far. I mean, one of the

better things about the last version of the $7,500 credit was that there were like income,

household income limits and other requirements before you could take advantage of it. A lot of

people, in my opinion, completely correctly said that the first version of the $7,500 credit was

really bad, was a terrible use of taxpayer money because it helped a lot of wealthy people buy

Tesla's. And that's pretty much true. And that's pretty much true. In other words, people who

probably would have bought them without the $7,500 credit and maybe-

Right. And they wanted people to buy like a Focus or Fusion EV, or I know they don't really make

those anymore, but those are the first models that popped in my head. They wanted people to buy a

more mainstream car, right? Exactly. If you were wealthy and you wanted a Tesla, you went and got

one. And that's what a lot of Tesla buyers did. And the fact that they could get a $7,500 credit

because they didn't care if they had a $2 million annual income, they still got the $7,500 credit,

that was all a pretty bad use of federal tax credits. So the second one, I think the household

income was $2.50 for a married couple and half that for a single person, single household.

So you were finally hopefully getting more people who needed monetary help to buy the car. That

should have been what the whole point of the credit was going to be. And so I feel like I'm

sure it did. And I think the study we just did kind of helps prove that because the new cars that

have gone up in price are the ones that probably would have sold whether the credit existed or

not because their prices have gone up since the credit went away and the ones whose prices dropped

new vehicles, probably because those are the ones that needed the credit to help themselves.

And so I think you're asking the right question. I think the answer is essentially

there's a tipping point for intending to buy an EV but need monetary help versus not.

And I would guess because EVs are just generally more expensive than internal combustion cars

and they're generally less usable, they've got less flexibility, whether it's long-distance

driving, you live in a cold climate, you have to carry tow heavy things by a truck.

So I think you generally have people who have multi-car fleets and can lean on an internal

combustion vehicle when they need to buy an EV of any price. I think there's very few people who

are like, I'm the sole person in my household living in the urban environment and I'm going to buy an

EV as my sole vehicle because of everything you just mentioned, charging opportunities and the

whole thing. So I think that's really where we're at and that's why we're stuck at 8% with

credits, federal help and incentives and 4% without because by the time you weed through all the people

who have reasons to question whether they can make an EV work for themselves, whether it's cost or

lifestyle, you're left with somewhere between 4% and 8%. They don't know how much help you've got

coming from the government. Yeah, and the commerce to that question then is obviously, as you mentioned,

automakers have EVs that are still coming because they were in the pipeline three to five years ago

and they weren't going to cancel the program this close to launch just because the tax credit

went away. They'll have to figure out another way to sell them and there could be cash on the hood,

it could be the car, it's good enough, that doesn't matter, blah, blah. But the question is now,

and it's hard to tell, it's hard to, I know this would be hard for you to answer, not working for

Automaker because some things you and I are just not privy to and some things automakers will either

lie to us or spin things, but we'll have to do our best to work through it. But do you see,

how do you see EVs that are in the pipeline now being changed? You see, and we've already hinted

at it a little bit, but the EV Boss is already out there, Lightning is already out there on the

market. Did you see EVs being, and you mentioned without saying examples, you did mention a little

bit of delays of production, but do you really see a lot of delays in production, programs being

canceled, or do you see automakers plowing ahead thinking, well, there's still a market for EVs,

we want to be a leader on environmental, we don't want to be held back just because the

government changed the policy, we still want to market ourselves as an environmentally friendly

company that's on the cutting edge of technology. So do you still, do you see the EVs that are in

the pipeline still coming to market, or do you see a huge wave of delays and cancellations coming,

or somewhere in the middle? So I think what's going to happen, and we've seen some of this already,

is that automakers, first of all, I think they learned from the last five years, which is

don't over commit to something that you can't confidently make a good business model for.

Especially given the volatility of our politics. Exactly. So even if, again, without any changes

in presidential office holders, we were plateauing at 8%, and all of a sudden it was looking like it

would be harder to sell the existing EVs, let alone all the others that were scheduled to flood

the market in the ensuing 12 plus months, a year and a half ago, fall of 24. So then we had a bunch

of things happen that made it even harder to sell them. And so that whipsaw effect has probably

taught the automakers a lot. And examples of what they've learned in terms of pipeline vehicles

coming down the road would be, I think the best example would be Scout. Scout was essentially

supposed to be Rivian Part 2, a pure electric adventure vehicle company trying to leverage

an old American brand name that meant internal combustion adventure vehicles. And all of a sudden,

what are they telling us now, Tim? Hybrid, hybrid, hybrid, it's range extender, range extender,

range extender. So I think that's a great microcosm of what is going to happen. I think what you're

going to see is car companies will either commit to a pure EV that can only be an EV much more

cautiously and much more carefully and prudently. And I think the low cost truck, well, it's going

to be a truck first, but that low cost platform coming from Ford is a good example of that,

where it is going to be an EV from start to finish. And it's going to be as low cost as possible

because it's been designed as an EV from start to finish. Then you're going to see a lot more,

I think, where they can, if it's not too late, Scout being an interesting example,

because I feel like they were pretty far along. And I'm wondering what it took cost-wise for them

to change ideas or philosophies. But the Dodge Charger is another good example.

I think companies are going to be thinking more modular and more flexible and thinking,

we don't know who's going to be coming in the political office over the next five to seven

years, but that's how long our product cycles are. So we have to plan for every possible contingency.

And you have a lot more flexibility if you have a body and a chassis that can have multiple

drivetrain types from a pure gasoline to a hybrid to a pure EV. And I think more of them are going

to do that kind of planning just like Scout already did. Makes sense. And then we've been talking

about the EV tax credit, but we didn't really touch on another item that's been in the news

in the past week or two and really for the past, geez, almost a year now. And I don't know if it's

a direct, well, it isn't directly affecting only EVs. It'll affect all powertrains and all types

of vehicles because of the materials that are involved, but have have tariffs played a part in

this? Or is it just one of those things where, okay, if a tariff is affecting an ICE car because

of the steel and the aluminum in the body and because the engine is built in a certain country,

is it kind of the same with the EVs because they have steel, aluminum bodies and the batteries

and motors are built in a certain country? So, you know, how does tariffs factor in this, if at all?

Very similar to what we just talked about in terms of vehicle philosophy and design.

Well, our companies have also learned that it seems cheaper to build a car in this country than

the US, but that's only if nothing changes in the next five.

In this country instead of the US, I think you meant to say...

Sorry, sorry. No, no, I mean, I should have said that better.

They often think it's often cheaper to build a vehicle in this or that country and ship the cars.

In other words, the random global market, China and Mexico being two good examples,

and we'll ship the cars to the US. And then they have to now know that when they tell themselves

that, well, it seems cheaper today, but I've never heard of a car being sold to US buyers

that was built in the US that suddenly a president said, you know what, we're going to start charging

tariffs on all these Kentucky cars. We don't like this Kentucky plant. We're going to start

pyrophying that plant. That's never happened. Pretty sure it's never going to happen.

And just like they need maximum flexibility on the drivetrains of their future cars,

they need maximum stability on the cost and the business case for cars that they're going to

be building for the next five, 10, 25 years. I mean, as big of an investment as it is to do a vehicle,

it's a huge investment to him to do a plant and have a plant exist.

And the supplier chain that goes with the plant and the whole thing,

you think hub and spoke, right? I mean, you've got a plant and every plant needs a whole

infrastructure around it that supplies it with all the parts that go into the vehicles built in

that plant. Setting that stuff up. That's why everyone was kind of rightfully annoyed with

such aggressive tariffs so quickly because it's like, look, if you want to build things in America,

we can try to build things and we can even absolutely move in that direction. We can't

build things in America next month. So you need to give us more than a month's notice on a tariff,

you know? But I think the effect has been the same. And I think that's what was intended,

which is you need to move your production, whether it takes you two months or two years,

you better get your stuff set up in this country because we're going to charge tariffs. And

I think car companies are now aware that if you're going to do a long-term commitment,

maybe you want to do a long-term commitment with as much stability on your cost and your

business case as you can get. Yeah. And we should also mention when it comes to tariffs,

it's not just tariffs on where a car is built but also parts. So a vehicle built in the States

might in theory escape tariffs, but then maybe some of the parts

are coming from other countries that are tariff too. So that's something to keep in mind. Carl,

is there anything else before we wrap the segment? Anything else that you kind of

noticed that you wanted to really get into that we just didn't talk about?

Well, I think it's fascinating to watch a company like Tesla, which again was kind of

bucking the trend and holding up well on the used car market and probably on the new two.

We don't know because it's hard to track these new car sales. But that's all going on. And yet,

Elon is completely all over AI and robots now. So I feel like whether it's the Chinese global

competition and their pricing advantages that they have over everyone, including Tesla,

or whether it's his also wondering about people talking about peak auto, peak EV,

at least in this market for the foreseeable future, he has decided that his cars are not

his focus anymore. He killed the Model X and the Model S recently and he's got the three in the Y

left. But he clearly seems unconcerned about doing any drastic updates or redesigns of those vehicles

or investing in that. He's putting all of his eggs in the AI and robotics and self-driving basket.

And I think that's also kind of interesting because this goes beyond EV or internal combustion.

If the technology hits and up until even six months ago, I was like, this is a five to 10-year

thing to have fully autonomous cars all over the place. As with so many things related to

computers and AI, it's moving faster than I thought it was going to move. And I'm seeing

what cars are starting to do without any human intervention. And it's surprising me. So if we

get self-driving cars quicker than a lot of us thought, certainly than I thought, a lot of it's

going to be moot. A lot of it's not even going to matter as far because we're not going to own

the cars. We're going to use, we're going to all be ubering everywhere in a self-driving car.

Yeah, I disagree with you there a little bit because I think the autonomous cars are running

into problems that the large language models and agentic AI and computers are not quite running

into. I also think there's going to be a little bit of independent spirit. Like, hey, I want to

drive myself. So I think, and this is also just my personal bias as someone who loves driving,

I think self-driving cars are not going to be quite, you just call a pod and it ubers you

everywhere. I think it'll be more like a previous podcast guest, Alex Roy, and I had discussed

where you can drive yourself when you want to. And then you can also let the car take over when

you want to. Kind of a best of both worlds sort of thing, but that's a whole other topic.

We're running out of time here. I did want to, I do want to say really quickly on Tesla. I think

one reason why Tesla has bucked this trend is Tesla has always, even with the backlash to Elon's

politics and some of his decisions that he's made with Twitter and the support of President

Trump and Doge and some of the stuff he's done to upset liberal leaning customers as well as some

anti-Trump conservative customers. I think Tesla has always still been seen as cool. And I think

there's a lot of people who say, well, Elon's nuts, but I still think Tesla's cool. So I think

that's one reason why Tesla has bucked the trend. I think another reason is the cars still look good,

even the older models. The styling has been good, except for the Cybertruck, which obviously is

divisive. I don't particularly, I actually didn't mind it in pictures at first. I thought I didn't

like it, but I was like, well, at least I can see what he's trying to do. And you know, I've seen

a few in person. I'm like, yeah, it does not look good. So obviously the Cybertruck is a little

divisive. And so I think Tesla has a cool factor that other automakers just never had, because

they were a little bit late to the game with EV development. And Tesla has the anti-legacy

automaker cash it as well. So even when Elon upsets a lot of people, there's still people,

you know, how many bumper stickers have you seen? I bought this before, before Elon went nuts or

I bought this even though I bought this, I don't like Elon, you know, I've seen a lot of those

bumper stickers. So I think that's, I think Tesla has a cool factor that has not yet gone away,

even after 15 years or so. And also I wanted to briefly, I don't have a chance to really pick

your brain on this because we were just out of time, but maybe next time we have you on, and if

we're talking EVs, we can get into this. But we didn't really talk about how the potential of

Chinese integration into the American market with EVs might flip around the game even without the

federal tax credit. As you mentioned, Chinese EVs are a little less expensive. And I've heard,

I've not experienced this, I've not had a chance to drive a Chinese EV, I've not been to China ever

in my life. I know some auto journalists have gone to the auto shows over there and have reported

back that the cars are much more technologically advanced than the EVs you can buy in America from

American, Korean, and European automakers and Japanese automakers as well. So I'm a little

curious, if you can give us a quick minute on it, I'm a little curious to how this might affect

China coming in. So I think I love the idea that the attitude is, if you want to sell cars in the

US, fabulous. Start building them here and we're all over it because turnabouts fair play. And you

and I both know that it was, hey, China, we're all drooling over here, over here near the Atlantic

on your huge market. And we want to sell to it. And China was like, great, we love it. And they

kind of, Mr. Burns, evil, rubbed their hands together. Come on over here and partner with one

of our current automakers and give them full access to your IP, intellectual property as you

design cars. Because we know the Chinese cars 20 years ago were a joke. And now they've gotten all

the IP from us. They figured out how to build cars. And now they're rapidly kicking us out

through various subtle and not so subtle ways. And all the big gravy train that all the non-long-term

thinking Western automakers thought they saw are now happening to realize the reality that, oops,

that gravy train from China is coming to an end. So I would love to see Chinese cars come to this

country. And I would love to see them being built in this country and employing our people and maybe

even do an IP thing with our guys. And they come over here. I'm all for that. Because one thing I

like to remind people of Tim when they're like, but China is going to get ahead of us. Why aren't

we competing with China? You're right. We should totally compete with China. Let's end all labor

unions and all overtime. Let's stop having medical care provided by car companies, no holidays.

We can absolutely compete with China. I don't think you're going to want to compete with China

when I tell you what it takes to compete with China.

Right. But if you want to have an authoritative government that's totally aligned with the car

companies and controls them and no benefits and no minimum wage and no labor unions and no medical

coverage and no insurance, worker comp and all that stuff, or whatever they decide they want,

but certainly nothing that the consumer has any say over. You want to do all that,

we can compete with China. Tell me you want to sign up for that. And I'm going to look at you

and think you're crazy, but I hope you at least start to think about why China has what the

advantages they've got. And I also personally think there's kind of a house of cars. Not that

China would ever be duplicitous. Never, ever. Not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying

the financials that they're claiming for everything from how much they can make these cars for,

how much profit they're making and how much money they're making may start to show through as not

being quite as, and a lot of people say it's already happening. It's been major price wars,

prices are dropping, sales are dropping. Some people said say recent trends like last six

plus months are already starting to poke some holes in the, China's got it all figured out

more so far behind facade that they've presented. Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm keeping

a wait and see attitude until I drive one of their vehicles. So with that, unfortunately,

we are out of time. Carl, we've been with Carl Brower, the executive analyst at iccars.com.

For those who are going to punch that into their browser, it is not the letter I, the letter C,

it is the letter I, the letter, then the word C as in vision, as in to see and then cars.com. So

iccars.com, talking about the effects of the cancellation of the EV tax credit on the EV market

and the overall market. So Carl, thank you so much for your time. Hey, always fun talking cars to

you, Tim. Looking forward to the next one. This message comes from eBay, the worst part

about loving cars might just be buying them and all the parts from Toyota's to Aston Martin's.

eBay has thousands of cars and the largest online selection of vehicle parts and accessories.

eBay, things people love. If you like what you hear on the TTEC podcast, please go ahead and

leave us a review. You can also find us online at ttech.com that is ttac.com or the truth about

cars all spelled out.com. We are your home for car reviews, car news, opinions and so, so much more.

Here on the truth about cars podcast, we talk NASCAR almost every week with

ttech contributor Matthew Guy and we're going to be talking about the second race of the season.

And Alanna, Matthew, how are you? Doing great. Looking forward to talking about Atlanta today.

Yeah. And so in the interest of full disclosure, I did not have a chance to watch the race. I had a

few things going on, but you had a chance to watch the race. I did see Tyler Redick won his second

race of the season, second race in a row. So he is the only winner we've had so far and he's two

for two. So let's talk about Alanna. What happened? Walk me through it as someone who didn't get a

chance to see it. Well, I think this is, if my memory and the stats that I've looked up for

this podcast are correct. This is the first time since 2009, we've had a back-to-back winner to

kick off the season. Yeah, Matt Kenseth. Kenseth, thank you, was the first, has been the most recent

person to do that. So there's a name from the past. Yeah. And sorry, I don't mean to interrupt,

but Redick is only the sixth in NASCAR history to do it. Sixth in NASCAR history. I mean, what a,

that's absolutely awesome. And the way that the points are, I'm looking at the point standings

here now and any long-time listeners of our podcast, thank you, both of you,

know that I am absolutely stoked that the whole win and you're in points

thing is gone, right, for this year. But the way that the points are structured right now,

these two wins have put Tyler Redick in a really, really good position. I mean,

he's 40 points ahead of Bubba Wallace, who is in second place points right now. So that's,

I just wanted to say that just right off the bat that I think this points system is as good as

we're going to get for right now. And I'm really, really thinking that this is a really good thing

for 26. But as for the race itself, I think it's super ironic that you had a couple of overtimes.

I'll get to the ironic thing in a minute, but we had a couple of overtimes because there were a

couple of cars that were trying to wedge themselves into places that weren't big enough,

one of them being, again, Carson Hosevar at the 77, right?

Well, I may have surprised.

Right. And I think that that 77 car is going to find itself in victory lane sometime this year.

They got to, they got to. I mean, they're just running up front,

putting themselves in a really good position. I'd argue that the incident involving the 20

was just as much the fault of the 20 as it was the 77 in terms of the 20 coming down a little bit

and closing that gap, which I know you're supposed to do, but getting a run on the outside is tough

to do at the best of times. And with Atlanta being such a drafting track, I think that a lot of

people are right when they're saying Atlanta is on the same breath now as Daytona and Talladega

for drafting for how a person can race on it and things of that nature. So

you know, there was that, there was those incidents that led to double overtime going into

the final couple of laps of this race and ended up with, again, the 45 right up at the front

for the second time in a row. And here's the ironic part. I think that, I mean, there were

lots of jokes online that, okay, so they beat NASCAR in court, 2311 did, and now they've won two

races in a row, right? Was this part of the settlement? And we know it wasn't, right? Like,

you can't. Yeah, that's a funny joke though. It is a funny joke, right? You're like, you can't

script this type of stuff, right? I mean, there's prior to many variables for it to be for it to

be for it to be cheated their way into, into winning two in a row, right? But looking at,

they made 271 laps, of course, because there was overtime. Chase Briscoe in the 19 was second

place. Ross Chastain was in third place with the number one car, Hosefair there and fourth,

and Daniel Suarez, rounding out the top five. So you had the two Spire Motorsports cars right

next to each other and fourth and fifth. And I also saw that someone had made this point. I don't

remember who it was. It wasn't a major, like, Barapakras or someone like that, but someone was

making the point that you've got two essentially super speedway races to kick off the year. It'll

be interesting to see if 2311 can maintain this momentum, because sometimes, as we all know,

super speedways can create unexpected winners just given the chaos of running at them. So

I think absolutely awesome start for the 45 car and absolutely awesome start for 2311 going into

this season. Yeah, I'm sure Michael Jordan is happy to see his two of his drivers in the top

two spots. And obviously, one of his drivers is one of the first two races. And also,

ready coming back from a damaged car, I've been kind of looking at the highlights and stuff as

you were talking. So obviously, he finished in a damaged car and he's still finished, even though

he was part of a wreck with only, I think, 40 laps to go in regulation. So nice to see him come

back. And obviously, again, I didn't see the race, but it's kind of fun to have a guy, particularly

Redick, who's not, he's not like a villain. You know, he's, I don't know if he'd call him a fan

favorite, but he's definitely on the more popular side. And he's seems like a good guy. So at least

from, I don't think I've ever interviewed him or met him, but just I may have interviewed him in a

scrum, but he seems like a good guy based on his TV interviews. So someone you can root for who,

so that's always nice to have someone you can root for winning the, the two races in the road

of the season, then going maybe for a third next week. But you know, it's, what you said about

Atlanta being kind of with Daytona and Talladega now as another super speedway almost track,

there's some truth that I think, you know, just thinking back to last season and the races there,

it has become a fast track. And I don't know if I want to use the word super speedway, but it's

about as close as you can get without being one. So yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the,

a lot of these mile, mile and a half tracks are not quite there, but Atlanta is getting there

for sure, for whatever reason. Absolutely. Just with the reconfiguration and how

that track is run and how the, this car, right, this, this particular generation of,

of soccer has been massaged over the last couple of years since it's been introduced

and how it is run on Atlanta. And I love how we're all saying Atlanta. We're not saying Echo

Park. Yeah. Well, that's just me. I rarely use the sponsor and it's not like any stand against

sponsors. I have no problem with that. It's just, I just think it's easier for our listeners to

not everyone knows what Echo Park is without looking enough, but I think all of our listeners

will know Atlanta. And that's the way I treat most tracks. Same, same. And I was reading here that

Reddick led race best 53 of the 271 laps, which is a lot of laps. Yeah. It's a lot more than he

led at Daytona. I think he only officially led the final lap at Daytona question mark. Someone

can chime in. That sounds right from what I remember. I think, I think we were reading

before we did our recording of our Daytona recap podcast. I feel like I read a couple

different things saying, Oh, he only led the last lap. That's the lap that counts. Or maybe that

was on the broadcast, but either way, I don't believe he led a single lap at the Daytona 500

this year, even though he won. Yeah. Yeah. As we all remember that, that last lap was he was

not really in position to win until things went sideways for a bunch of drivers,

including Chase Elliott. So yeah. So he, he definitely don't, I don't believe he led a single

lap at Daytona this year. And I think that with 2311 winning these first two races,

I think the trial that wrapped up in December, it was, it was a settlement. But I think, and

we've expressed this in the past, that NASCAR would consider it a loss for them, right? I mean,

anything that NASCAR has to give up, because the France family has ruled the sport and continues

to. And I think some fans see that, and we're probably happy, elated even, right? To see some

of the sports, see the France family take quote, unquote, taken down a peg or two, right? For the

team's benefit, because there were two crucial demands, you know, to which they, to which they

yielded permanent charters and a greater share of revenue. That's, that's two huge wins. And

absolutely. Yeah. So to have that team that drove pun intended, those changes win the first two

races of the 2026 NASCAR season is nothing short of remarkable. If this was Hollywood, right? If this

was Daytona, I'm sorry, days of thunder too, it will be unbelievable, right? You would say, no,

there's no way, right? That a, that a team that is not all that old, that doesn't have a heck of a

lot of on track history behind it could take on the France family, win, and then take home the

checkers and the first two races of 2026, you wouldn't believe it. You'd say, nah, that's way

too, that's just Hollywood fantasy, right? Well, the counterpoint that though is over the past few

years, Wallace, Bobo Wallace has been in contention a lot. This is true. He's had some bad luck. He's

also had some situations where he was, and had a chance to maybe win the race or finish top five

near the end and something went wrong or he was collected in a rack or his car had an issue. He

just didn't, just didn't quite get it done. Maybe he drove well, but not quite well enough.

You know, or maybe he finished third or fourth as opposed to first. So, and Reddick is too.

Reddick has also had a lot of, and I don't know how many wins up top my head he has before this

here, but he's also had a lot of times where he didn't win, but he was in the mix. So, and of

course, Denny Hamlin, a veteran driver. Well, wait, Hamlin doesn't drive for 2311 though.

No, he still drives, still drives the 11 car. I always forget that he owns the 23, part owns

2311. So having his involvement, I take that back because he doesn't drive for them. Having his

involvement as a driver, even though he's driving for somebody else, I'm sure that helps too. So,

2311 is, yeah, you're right. They're not that old, but they have also been on the cusp of

more success than you would think. You just haven't won a ton of races, but

they've been in the mix, you know, a lot. So the Hollywood story might be a little more

believable there. You're right. You're right. You know, 2311, I should give them more credit

than I did and what I was saying, because they have had a ton of success, especially compared

to some of the other teams that are running every week, just like 2311 is. And on a different note,

I'm just looking here, I'm just going through NASCAR.com. And I didn't realize that Toyota

Racing Development announced the long-term commitment to Keelan Harvick, who's Kevin

Harvick, Jungfeller, who's in 13, 14 years old, right? So I mean, he's just at the start of his

career and Toyota's already trying to lock down that young talent for NASCAR in whatever, five

years time. So that's, I always take note of that type of stuff, right? Because he's won

multiple late-model events and things of that nature. So seeing those things into the future

is pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. And a quick look, and I'm not 100% sure if I trust the source of

the numbers, but it does sound like 2311 has won 11 NASCAR races. That sounds good.

That is the Google AI, so I don't know how much I trust it. But I do remember,

Bubba Wall is winning the brickyard last year. So there's a few others. I'm looking now,

digging through a few sources and the sourcing I'm looking at is hard to read. So let's look at

motorsport stats and see if this is a little makes a little more sense. Yeah, they also have

11 wins. Motorsport stats, which I think is a more reliable source. So, you know, they definitely

have 11, 11 wins out of 181 shots. So that's not terrible. No, they've been full-time, full-time,

full-time deal for about five years, I think, question. Yeah. It was after COVID. It was,

well, after 2020, I just, that's my demarcation point for COVID 2020. Yeah, mine too. Yeah. So I

think it was 2021 was their first full season. And to get what, 11 wins? That's, that's combined

among all the different drivers. Yeah, that's not insignificant. There's a lot, there's a lot of

teams who would love to have 11 wins, but don't. And they may also include

Xfinity or what is now called, I forget that they just changed sponsorships. I can't recall.

O'Reilly, O'Reilly parts. O'Reilly auto parts. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm looking at the sheet now.

I see, here I see a Kansas, a Talladega in 2021. I see Kansas 2022, Kansas in 2023 as well,

Michigan in 2024, Brickyard last year. So that's five or six right there.

Kurt Busch win in the 45. I think he five. Homestead win in 2024 as well.

Plus the two wins start this year. Another Kansas in 2022, earlier in the year.

Coda in 23. Yeah. So it looks like about 11. Just, I don't have, it's hard to count,

given the way the spreadsheet was laid out, but that seems about right.

I think that Kansas win you mentioned was Kurt Busch, I think.

Yeah. This is just showing the team. I'd have to click through. Yeah.

Which Kansas, there was more than one here. There were two, right? There was one,

there was one in May. That was Kurt Busch in the 13th week of the 2022 season.

So that'd be the one in May. Yeah. So that goes to show one thing I always take away from

these teams that have had multiple drivers. I mean, Reddick's been in the car now.

This will be his fourth full season. He starts in 2023.

But there have been other drivers in that car, Kurt Busch being one of the most notable ones.

And they've all found success. So that speaks to the quality of the equipment that's out there.

You can often put a really good driver in middling equipment and have success,

but then as soon as that seat is open and taken by another driver who may not be of such high caliber,

the results start to fall off. But, you know, 23-11 has found success in a lot of different,

like I mean, with Bubba Wallace winning in Indy. I'm pretty sure Bubba Wallace won in the first

year at Talladega in 2021 as well. So they've had a history of success amongst all of their

drivers is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. He was the first driver there, I think, and he won in Talladega.

That would be the second Talladega race of 2021. I'm excited to see what's going to be coming next.

Yeah, I'm excited for, well, we should probably roll into before we close out our segment.

So speaking of being excited about what's coming next, I'm excited about the third week of the

season. First road course race already. And as regular listeners know, I prefer, I'm not saying

that's cars should never go all road course. So that would be, here's a small part of me,

I would love to see a stock car series. It is all road course, but that's never going to happen.

But that's called Australian supercars. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to see an American version

of that with cup cars, but it's just not going to happen. But I do love road courses. I always,

I mean, part of the reason why I do love them is also the novelty. So maybe they wouldn't be as

fun if every race was a road course, but they're a little more fun when, when they're, when they're

only five or six races out of the year. But yeah, Coda, Circuit of the Americas in Texas this weekend.

Gonna probably be another race that Shane van Gisburgen has,

has a good shot at winning because of his road course experience. We know Chase Elliott does

well on road courses. He's, he's done well in road America, although that series hasn't been

there in a couple of years. We've seen, you know, the Chicago guys, the guys who do well in Chicago,

street course drivers like Alex Bowman, who won a Chicago race. Some of them might have been,

some of them have done a while on other road courses, some have not. I believe ready, because

another one of those guys who is always in the mix on a street course or road course,

you know, some guys are just really, some guys are just better at others. And I don't want to

see it turning right as opposed to turning left, because I don't think that's all that difficult.

But I think what is difficult is the shifting, knowing what gear to be in the footwork,

especially out of the braking zone. And, you know, I know they're professional drivers and

other better drivers than you and I, but professionals make mistakes too, right? And

especially when you're in a high speed braking zone with cars and your left and cars on your right,

and you're trying to get just the right amount of brake pressure, it's easy to miss a shift and

all of a sudden be too high of a gear and don't have enough torque to come out of the corner

or being too low of a gear and slow down too much or that sort of thing or do some damage

to a transmission. So that's why the reason why I love to see the road course racing is because

it's not just about knowing when to turn in or changing the car setup so that it can turn right

as well as it turns left. And that's all important too, the teams have to, these are cars that are

set up to turn left. If anyone's ever driven an old stock car on a bank track, they are meant to

turn left. They do not want to turn right. They just don't. And so these cars now need to be changed

so that they can turn to the right as well. And that's going to be a huge part of it. The crews

have to set all that up and get that ready. But the drivers need to learn all the different turns

and braking points and apex points and appropriate speeds going into a corner, coming through a

corner, coming out of a corner, but also the footwork, like I mentioned too. And I've noticed

that one reason why Shane Van Ginsberg has done so well on road courses in his two or three years

here is he's very good at the footwork, which some of the other road, some of the other good

road course drivers struggle a little bit with that. So I'm really interested in seeing how the

first road course goes. It's already the third race and we're already on a road course. That's

pretty, pretty awesome. So then we're back in the mile and a half stuff with Phoenix and Las Vegas

after that. And then back to the, and then kind of in Darlington and then the short track in

Martinsville. So, you know, we're, we're going to go road course two mile and a half or as one

that's a little more traditional Phoenix. Obviously Vegas has not been scheduled quite as long

because the track hasn't existed quite as long. And then two, two traditional tracks that have

a lot of history in Darlington and Martinsville. And then we'll roll into April with another

short tracker at Bristol. So three or four weeks there of huge NASCAR history. So before we get

into that meat of the schedule and start looking at good weather and spring weather,

we're going to be in Texas and obviously it's still cold here in the North, but,

and I haven't looked at the forecast, but Austin is generally pretty warm this time of year. So

it should be warm enough. I have not seen if rain is forecast or not, but it should be warm enough

to host a race and we'll see what happens. I'm looking forward to it. Me too. And so this is the,

correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the second year of the new layout, right? Because

they chopped almost a mile off of the track last year. And if I'm right, I forgot there was a

new layout. Yeah. Right. And so that is something. And so there's more laps, but the total number of

miles that's covered is about the same. But I think that that was a good thing for them to do. It

seemed to create for a decent race last year. And what was it going to say? Oh yeah, SVG finished

sixth this past week at Atlanta. So he's improving in the road course then. All right, excuse me,

the oval. The oval, right? So I think that he'll be, he'll be in the mix this week coming up. And

like you said, Chase Elliott and even Todd Eretic, because he did win, don't forget that,

at Cota in 2023. I need to remind myself of that. Yeah. So he's, will he get three in a row? This

is where we use our radio voices to say tune in next week to see celebrating three in a row.

Yeah. And like I said, he is, he is one of the five or six guys that I look at as having a shot

on a road course. Now there's other guys who could do it, of course. And every time

the series gets to a road course, the drivers who haven't done well on it get better. I mean,

one would think and one would also think their crews get better at setting the cars up and

learning, you know, part of NASCAR is constant learning. And the more you go to a track,

the more you learn about it. And Cota is a relatively new track, but it's not that new

anymore. And nor is it that new to this, to the series. And obviously tracks change. I think

road courses change more from meeting to meeting. And I say change, I don't just mean major changes

like a layout, like changing a corner or shortening a layout or lengthening layout. It can also be

minor stuff like weather. That changes, you know, you could go there twice in a month in

different weather. Weather, track surface, track surfaces, you know, they get worn down,

they get resurfaced, minor stuff like that. So it's a long way of saying NASCAR is always learning,

but I still think there are five or six drivers who I'm not a betting man. I don't, I don't

bet on racing, especially because racing is so unpredictable and a wreck can easily take out

a favorite. But if I were going to bet a road course, there are five or six guys who I would

take ahead of anybody else. And Tyler Ruddick is one of them.

Absolutely. I think you'd be smart to take that bet for sure. And I'll toss

Josefair out there again as well, because I mean, he was on the front row. I mean, he's put himself

into a really good position in these last two races to win something. And, you know, just

polishing those corners a little bit maybe, being able to, being able to carry it out at the end,

I think we're going to see that, that, that 77 car victory lane before this season is over.

Yeah. He showed himself to be the kind of guy who can drive almost any type of track or surface.

And then I, the other driver, and we only have a minute or two left, so I will keep this quick,

but the only, the other driver I really think of as strong on road courses,

he's the kind of guy who can drive like Josefair, but more experienced,

the kind of guy who can drive everything. And that is, of course, Kyle Larson.

Oh, good call. Yes, you're right. And I don't have the stats in front of me,

but I don't know where he has finished. If he hasn't, you know, I know he hasn't won at

Circuit of the Americas for NASCAR in NASCAR, but he's that type of driver that can drive the

wheel just about anything. And most importantly, puts himself in a good spot and tries to avoid

as much trouble as possible. Exactly. All right. Well, with that, we're going to have to go ahead

and wrap our segment here on Fifth Bar Car's podcast, our NASCAR chat that we have to

every week. So check back in next week to talk about, we'll talk about what happened at Kota and

then preview the next race after that. So with that, we will go ahead and end our NASCAR talk

here this week. Thank you, Matthew Guy, for your time. Thank you, Tim. The cars you'll find that

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That's all for this week's The Truth About Cars podcast. I am Tim Healy, the managing editor,

and you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us online at

ttac.com, that's t-tech.com, or The Truth About Cars, all spelled out, .com. We thank Carl Brower,

Matthew Guy, for their time, and Matt Poskey for editing. Most of all, we thank you for listening.

We'll see you next time.

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