The Dale Jr. Download Apr 1, 2026

How Never Giving Up Led Lee Pulliam to JRM

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Concept

road course

A road course is a track with lots of turns, not just left turns like an oval. Cars have to brake and steer carefully to carry speed through corners.

Concept

Short tracks are smaller race tracks, usually ovals, where a lot of stock-car racing happens. Because they’re smaller, drivers have to be precise and the racing can feel more intense and close to the fans.

Brand

O'Reilly

O’Reilly is an auto-parts company that sponsors racing events. If they say “an O’Reilly race,” it usually means the event was branded or sponsored by O’Reilly at the time.

Brand

Xfinity

Xfinity is NASCAR’s second major national series (below the top Cup level). If a track hosted an Xfinity race, it means it attracted serious, high-profile stock-car competition.

Brand

AC Delco

AC Delco is an auto-parts brand that’s been involved in racing sponsorships for a long time. When it comes up in a track story, it usually means the event or series had AC Delco branding or support.

Concept

MRN radio

MRN radio is a radio station/network that carries race broadcasts. The speaker is saying they listened to the races on the radio every Sunday.

Term

Mack truck

Mack makes big work trucks used for hauling. Here, they started with a Mack truck and modified it into a farm silage truck.

Concept

spun it out

Spinning out means the tires lost traction and the car started rotating instead of turning smoothly. It often happens when you’re going too fast for the grip you have.

Concept

equipment not up to par

They’re saying their car wasn’t as well-prepared as the others. Even if the driver is good, having older or less-upgraded equipment can make it harder to win.

Concept

coal binding

I’m not fully sure what “coal binding” means here because it’s not a common racing term in that exact wording. It sounds like the team was doing something similar to a strategy or setup idea before others caught on.

Term

plug wires

Plug wires send the spark to the spark plugs. If they’re not secured and they get too close to hot parts, the spark can get interrupted and the engine will start misfiring.

Concept

test session

A test session is practice time outside (or early in) the race weekend where teams evaluate car setup, tire behavior, and driver comfort. The speaker notes it was his first time driving a car and compares pace with his teammate to judge performance.

Concept

qualified in the top three

Qualifying is the timed session before the race. Being “top three” means he started near the front, which helps you compete for the lead.

Term

left rear was going flat

That means the left rear tire was losing air. When a tire goes low, the car can get unstable and harder to control.

Concept

Daytona

Daytona is a famous oval track where cars go very fast for long stretches. How you set up the car and manage tires matters a ton because the turns keep stressing the car.

Concept

lapping

Lapping is when you catch up to slower cars and pass them so you’re a full lap ahead. If you lap people often, you’re running much faster than the rest of the field.

Concept

crew chief

The crew chief is like the team’s main decision-maker for the race car. They help plan strategy and guide how the car should be set up to go fast.

Concept

caution

A caution is when something happens on the track and the race slows down. Everyone has to drive more carefully until it’s safe to go fast again, and that can change who has the advantage on the restart.

Company

Lionel Racing

Lionel Racing makes NASCAR collectible model cars. They’re known for making the models look like the real race cars, including the details you’d see after a win.

Term

NASCAR

NASCAR is a popular American racing series with stock cars. The show talks about the racing season and the cars fans collect from it.

Term

die-cast

A die-cast is a small model car made with metal and painted to look like the real thing. NASCAR fans collect them because they’re detailed and match real race cars.

Term

screwdriver

They say the other person had a screwdriver, which makes the situation sound more dangerous than just racing. It suggests they might have been trying to mess with the car.

Brand

Chase Elliott

Chase Elliott is a well-known NASCAR driver. Mentioning him suggests the shop was working at a high level, not just local racing.

Concept

the three car

In NASCAR, each car has a number. “The three car” means the entry with the number 3 that Lee would drive at Martinsville.

Concept

restart

A restart is when the race starts again after a caution. The first few seconds are tricky because tires may not be at full grip yet, and position can change fast.

Concept

slapped the 14 with the left rear

He’s describing a bump with the back-left of his car to mess up the other driver’s momentum. It can slow them down or make their car less stable, but it’s risky.

Concept

enough weight on my rear tires

He’s saying the rear tires didn’t have enough “load” on them. Without that weight, they can’t grip well when he tries to accelerate, so they spin.

Term

motion sickness

Motion sickness is a common issue when using VR or driving simulators because your eyes and inner ear send conflicting signals. In racing training, it can limit practice time and performance, so drivers look for coping strategies to tolerate the sim environment.

Concept

virtual reality (VR) training

Virtual reality training means practicing in a computer-made simulation instead of real life. The idea is to get comfortable and improve your routine so you’re ready when it matters.

Company

MetaQuest 3

MetaQuest 3 is a virtual-reality headset. It lets you practice in a simulated environment, which can help you get used to racing-related activities even if you’re new to video games.

Concept

qualifying

Qualifying is when drivers try to set their best lap so they know where they’ll start the race. It doesn’t give you much time to think—once it’s your turn, you have to be ready right away.

Concept

led laps

“Led laps” means the driver was in front of the field for one or more laps during the race. It’s a key performance marker because it shows you had pace and were able to control track position.

Concept

win races

They’re talking about actually finishing first. Winning depends on both the driver and the team getting the car and strategy right.

Concept

sponsor

A sponsor is a company that pays for racing and gets their name on the car or driver. They’re saying that when you’re younger and sponsored, you might not feel the pressure as strongly.

Company

Folsom Fence Supply

Folsom Fence Supply is a sponsor mentioned in the story. Sponsors like this help pay for racing so a driver can get opportunities.

LIVE

I remember trying to take the moment in and I remember talking to all my teammates. I remember

thinking my team, I remember looking around at the place and being in that venue and knowing

what I was about to do. And I remember my leg being weak when I went to throw it over the door.

And after that, I was fine. The following is a production of Dirty Mode Media.

You're Dale's Jr. Should I say it?

All right, everybody. It's Dale Jr. Back again for another episode of the Dale Jr.

Download and the guest for this week was automatic. This was an easy decision to bring Lee Pulliam

in here. Lee drove the car for Junior Merchant Force last week at Martinsville and did a pretty

solid job. So I know that Lee has won a ton of races, but I don't really know real details.

So this is going to be fun for me as we all learn about his history, all the dominating

seasons that he's had behind the wheel of a race car. And I think you'll be shocked, honestly,

at how successful this guy has been over the years. And it's going to be fun. This episode

was brought to you by Arby's and the new Meat 3 Box. Get more meal for your money at Arby's.

We have the meats and we got a great guest today. Let's get started.

All right, man. Lee Pulliam on the Dale Jr. Download. Man, what's happening?

I'm just living a dream, dude. Yeah, you are. All right. So let's get right into it, man.

I wanted to learn more. This will be about not only your experiences past weekend and all that,

but let's talk about your life and how you found racing and all those things. So

where were you born? So I was born in Samore, North Carolina.

Yeah, where is that? It's a little small town right near VIR in the road course.

Really? Yeah, just south of VIR. Just an average dude. We grew up,

my dad went on a real small login business. And I remember being 10, 12 years old,

he'd sneak me out there into summer times and I'd be driving skitters and stuff like that working.

Just lived a normal life. We had some cows and just grew up on the farm and just a little country boy.

Where'd you see racing first? South Boston. That was kind of what we did for fun.

So we went small town. It wasn't a ton to do. How far is that from the house? 20 minutes.

Yeah, not bad. So we would go there. Sometimes we'd go to Orange County,

but most of the time, South Boston. You just go sit in the stands as a kid? We did.

Yeah. And I had a lot of memories growing up. We ended up meeting David Blankenship's parents

in the stands and David was such a legend at South Boston. Their names were Harry and Evelyn.

They're passed away now, but we would sit with them every week and I remember they would,

every year they'd send me Christmas presents. We just become really close.

So he was definitely one of my heroes growing up. I'd like to say I raced against him,

but I didn't do much racing when he was on the track. He was way up there.

He was really good. He was good. South Boston has just kind of been,

I mean, when I think about late model stock racing, but mainly when I think about mid-Atlantic,

racing in the Carolinas, the Virginias, South Carolina, Tennessee, even South Boston is the

staple, the standard, for what I think all short tracks should strive to be.

And now, it had an O'Reilly race or a Bush race, an Xfinity race back in the day.

I see you kicked tail there.

We did. We had some fun, but AC Delco.

Yeah. It still though, operates at such a high standard.

And so, it's an incredible place.

It is. It's carrying the banner for what I think a lot of our short tracks are striving to be.

You grew up right down the road from that racetrack. When did you, what was the first

sort of light bulb moment where you're like, how do I get behind the wheel of a car? How do I

start to get? Man, it was early. I remember my school teachers posted some photos because

I raced this weekend and they were like, different things that I drew in different classes.

I was drawing, typically I was drawing Dale Seniors race car and he'd always win.

I was fascinated by the sport really. We didn't, we didn't grow up poor by any means,

but we were not wealthy either. We didn't have satellite TV. I'd listen to the races on MRN and

man, they would just paint the picture for me and it was just something every Sunday.

I'd get out of church, we'd go to grandma's, we'd eat Sunday lunch and I'd stay there and listen

to the race on MRN radio. And I just, it just kept manifesting and I would think about it every

night. I remember like, now I know probably shouldn't have prayed about things like that,

but I remember praying that night like, man, let me figure out a way to do this one day. And

it just, you know, it never really happened. You know, I didn't know like we never got in

the go-kart race and we never got into any of that. We just, did you tell your daddy?

I did, you know, he knew, he knew how infactuated I was, but my dad was, my dad lost his dad when

he was like 12 years old. So my dad had kind of a hard upbringing. So they lost the family farm and

dad really worked his tail off to have, have what he had, you know, and so he was just grinding.

I mean, he would be going, I didn't remember a lot of things with my dad because he would be going

before the song was up and he would be getting back when it was time for me to go to bed at the

school. So really as a kid, we didn't, we won't tight through those moments. Like, of course,

he loved me. I know that. But we just didn't, we didn't have that relationship because he was

working all the time. Yeah. So how did it turn about? How did you end up in

chance to get behind the wheel or something? So I graduated high school early. I went to

Piedmont Community College at night after school and I would take extra classes and I graduated

high school early. And why? What was the initiative behind being there? To work and make money to

build a race car. Dave, all right. Yeah. So I remember, like when I was in high school,

like when I tell you it was growing up without nothing, like I didn't have a parking pass and I

would park it. Donald Fox was the guy's name. I'd park at his house and one of my buddies would pick

me up and take me to school. Like I was putting away every dollar I could to try to somehow

figure out how to get in this dream. So I went to work at a diesel mechanic shop in

Calins, Virginia. It was called Calins Repair and I would do fabricating, welding. A lot of times

like these cattle, these dairy farms would have these silage trucks and I would stretch those

trucks. That was one of my main jobs. I would take like, they would buy a Mack truck and we would

turn it into a silage truck with a dump body and all. So like I was, I was, they called me fireball

up there. That's just what they called me because I did all the welding, but, but yeah. So I was

saving money up there. My dad was saving money up cause like he loved racing too. Like he always

loved racing and it was a used car. Danny Willis, that was racing South Boston at the time. That's

a recognizable name. Yep. He had a, he had a used car for sale. What type of car? It was a Townsend car.

Damn, you went right into a late model. I went to a limited late model. Limited late model. Yep.

It was a Townsend car. Who's Townsend? Hell, everybody listening because I know who he is.

Rick Townsend's a legend. I mean, he had a unbelievable business. He won so many races,

man. He was, he is freaking legend. Special doing a sport. Yeah. So done some cool things.

And a heck of a fabricator too, but we were able to, to, to get the car. Now it was bare.

Like it didn't have anything Harley on it. Like it had a body, but it didn't have,

and it had a few pieces here, but we didn't have transmissions. We didn't have gears. We didn't have

springs. We didn't have shocks. So we kept working and it took almost a year and a half to

round up parts and most of it was used parts. The guy I worked for, Callan's repair Allen Amos,

he bought an engine for it, a 604 crate, a 603 crate engine because it was running limited.

And he ended up buying the engine for it. And most of the time these guys that we were racing

against, they would take the crate engines to an engine builder and get them specced out,

maxed out to the rules. We ran out of straight out the box. And it was, it was a long process.

We finally got on track at the end of 2006. Damn. And I remember it like, I think it's so crazy

because you're, that sounds like that wasn't that long ago. Because as soon as you say the year,

I take, I run right to where I was in 06, right? And I'm like, I was just getting ready to get out

I was just getting in a COT, you know, bud car coming to the end of that deal and you just

getting going. I had never made a lap. Not even a lap. I'm out of go-kart lap. Damn. A lot is,

I mean, that's longer ago than it feels. And, and yeah, it means 20 years now. But the,

I think for me, that's why this whole thing means so much because from, I would say,

when I was fives until that point, it's what I dreamed of every single day. So like, I think

that's why I'm so passionate and so emotional about it because it's what I always wanted to do.

I didn't get to play sports or nothing like that growing up. Like, and once I got to racing,

it's where I fit in. Like it was, it was my life. Like it was something that I didn't take it for

granted because I wasn't pushed to go to the track. I was begging to go to the track and it just,

I had to work so hard to actually get there that first time. And I remember getting on the

racetrack. And at the time, Danny Willis and Bruce Anderson were just, they were winning all the

limited races. And I was like, I thought I was just hauling tail out there practicing about that

time they rolled by me. And I mean, they like about blow my doors off. And I'm like, shoo,

I don't know if I can drive it any corner that deep. And so I just would, every time they go out,

I go out behind them and I would just drive it deeper and drive it deeper until I could do what

they did. And I spun it out and different things. I never hit nothing, but, and eventually like

we run that one race in 06. And then I had to wait all winter for South Boston.

Oh, I bet you were chomping at the bit. I was. And we went, we went back and we didn't know

anything about, like I had worked for HC Sellers a little bit, just helping him with like some

of his customers. Where was your car at home? So it was at the shop I worked for Alan Amos. So

I was, it was kept your car at the board work, which was an hour from the house. Yeah. So I was

traveling back and forth. You wouldn't, you wouldn't home much. No. Who was helping you?

Alan that run the shop. And then HC Sellers would gave us a baseline to put in the car because,

you know, we didn't know. So I remember we had like a little toolbox that you could

touch with your hand. You know, everybody's got these huge war wagons. We had a little toolbox.

And we had some three quarter wrenches. We had an inch and a eighth to move the track bar.

We had a half inch ratchet and we had a spanner wrench. And we ran like a,

we ran like a pair of three fifties or something in the front small bar. And we had like a 175,

150 reversed in the back and just old school. And we would just, we didn't know nothing. HC,

he would write down on the paper how to take cross weight out of the car, you know,

one in the left front, you know, so we had all this cheat sheet of what to do with the car was

tight or loose. And man, we were just at the racetrack having a ball. So it was, it was kind

of crazy. I ended up winning like my fourth or fifth races out of Boston. Really? Yeah. It was,

it was unbelievable. Like a lot of progress. It's a pretty time. We did. It was, it was pretty

crazy. So it was just natural. It ended up coming natural to me, but I was just fortunate on that

side of it. But I don't know. It was just, that's how it began. And then it's kind of crazy to what

it progressed to. You're talking about it being natural to you. So, you know, you ain't been in

a car all that much over the last six years, you hop back in and you go right to the front,

you win races, you run second at Martinsville last year. You hadn't ran, I don't know, you hadn't

ran 400 laps in six years, right? You hadn't had a lot of time, but it does come naturally. It's

like a, there are some guys and you're one of them. I think Josh Berry is one of them.

There's some guys that are just naturally a fit for that style of race car, the tire, the engine,

all the things, right? I'm, you know, I've been racing a lot here over the last couple of years

and so I've been around a lot of the drivers out there and there's a lot of us that get in there

and we're just grinding, right? And we'll have some good runs and we'll have some bad runs and it

just kind of ebbs and flows, but don't make a lot of sense. But there's certain guys that just

seem to be able to get in any car and make the car fast, right? What is it? Like you've been around

this a long time, you've worked with drivers, you've seen drivers, you've had people drive your cars,

you've watched people drive your car and you've gotten in that same car and can make it do things

they can't. And it's something to do with that, you know, there's a bit, there's a talent in you

that would work across any discipline, I think, like you could get in a truck, Xfinity and still

and be just, you know, really good. But what is it about the late model stock car? What's the trick

to making that car work? I think I just have such a good feel for it. Like I worked on them for so

long too. That didn't hurt anything, but I just think I know once I started having success, I

would figure out where my car needed to be in practice and stuff like that to be good at night.

And I just paid so much attention to things like that. So I think it's all the fine details and

just super focused, super focused at the racetrack. Like early in my career, that probably was a little

bit like it was one of the reasons I had success. It was also one of the reasons I didn't meet enough

people to have an opportunity because when I was at the track, I was just so laser focused on how to

win races. I wasn't focused on meeting people or talking network and yeah, nothing at all. I didn't

do, if I could go back, I would love to redo that part of it, but it's so hard to be good at both

sides of it. You felt like that every minute of the day needed to be devoted to racing, you know,

the car and speed and you and being better and you couldn't imagine like sacrificing one moment.

Nope, I couldn't. I thought that I could win my way. If I win this, if I win 70% of the races,

there's no way I'm not going to make it. No way. And you know, looking back, that's important,

but the networking is just everything in this sport really. So how many years did you run in

the limited class? I ran two. I won Rookie of the Year in 07. I won a couple races. 2008,

I won the championship there in limited and then 2009 was my first year in late-mile stocks.

Did you change cars? Did you bring the same car? Same car. Yeah, same car and

changed them. It was humble. We changed the engine. Yeah, we ended up, we, at that time,

I was winning so many races in 08. More and more sponsors were coming on board, like just local

people. Yeah. And I had a tremendous amount of sport support at the local track. So they helped

me get an engine. And we, we come in, South Boston was having 30 cars, like Wayne Ramsey,

Philip Morris, Nick Smith, like unbelievable guys, like some of the most talented racers. And man,

it was, it was a humbling experience. So I won a race that year in my rookie year, but most of

these guys were running brand new cars and I was bringing a limited car up, you know, so it was tough.

It was definitely, the equipment was, was not up to par with what they had, but I was able to be

competitive. So and learn a ton. And I think that helped me in the long run because I was taking cars

that probably should have run 20th at the South Boston and I was running in the top 10 with it.

So, and I did sneak, like I said, I snuck a win in there and that was a moment I'll never forget

too. That first win, it was just like, I can do this. Yeah. Do you remember that night? What happened?

Yeah, I do. I was, I was pretty good. I was going to run about third and which was tough.

Yeah. And Jonathan Cash and Nick Smith got into it in front of me. And I remember Cash,

I think Cash spun Smith, but either way, it like, it knocked the body off the 88 car. I remember

that Nick, Nick drove a black and yellow 88 car and it knocked the roof and all off the thing and

ended up getting sneak and bomb both and, and had a good, you know,

restart and was able to win the race. So that was, I was probably a third place car that night,

but I was the happiest guy in the United States at Victory Lane for sure. Yeah. So it was a big

night. So are you, are you running South Boston every night or every week and then, right,

are you going to run anywhere else? No, we, we, we had just enough fun squeaked out to run South

Boston. So I was only running 12, 12, 12 to 14 races a year or something like that, something. So

yeah, but, and we did try to sneak to Martinsville. We, we, we didn't make the show like, we didn't

make the show when we went and that was a humbling experience too. Cause I was in there and it was,

you know, 110 cars or so at the track at that time. And I remember watching the race from the

stands and that was the most disappointed feeling that I ever had in my life was missing the show.

I was sitting there. I was like, I just, I can taste it. I've missed that show and it sucks to

miss it. You can taste it, but I mean, there's so many damn good, I mean, there's 80 cars that

don't make their race back in the nineties and you're in 2000s. It was, you know, you, you didn't

feel like you were one of a few. No, it wasn't one of a few, but I just helped myself to a high

standard, I guess, but, um, but yeah, it was, uh, I actually rented an engine from, from Philip Morris

the first time we went. So the first time I went was oh eight. I was running limited and Philip

rented me an engine and, uh, I remember that thing had some steam down the straightaway. It was,

it was, I come so close to making it. I had no experience. I had never run a lake mile race

anywhere. I come right from limited and I missed the heat race by like one spot, but it definitely

had some steam. I was bragging on his motor pretty good. So Jay Hedgecock, uh, we've had him in here

a couple of weeks ago to do the show. He helped you, uh, on a new car. Yes. How'd that come about?

So in 09, I knew that for me to be able to late mall stock race, I was going to have to update

my equipment to have a chance and I went to several different chassis guys. Uh, I went

to Townsend and I went to A and E. Um, I went to Jay and like I'm telling them, all of them,

I don't, I'm, I don't have any money, but if y'all help me, I'm telling you, I can sell chassis

for you. And I said, I will pay you. If I have to cut grass every single day for five years,

you're going to get your money. I promise you. And the only person that took me up on it was Jay

and it took probably a year to pay that chassis off and the parts and stuff I got from him. But

I wouldn't, that's why I've been loyal to Jay Hedgecock ever since I've had so many chassis guys

after me to run their chassis still to this day. And I've never left Jay because I've never

forgot what he did for me in 2010. He's a badass dude. He is a unbelievable guy. And, um,

I'm just a guy like I have loyalty. Like if you help me, I'm, I'm, I'm all in. And, and that's how

I've been with Jay ever since. And I remember the first time I drove a car, I sat on the pole,

won the race, and it was like, wow, like this now we, now we're on a different level. Yeah. And,

we ended up finishing second in the points that year, but I won, won the second most races. Justin

Johnson was really good. Frank Denny was working on his stuff. Yeah. He was, uh, he was, I think

they were coal binding before any of us knew what it was. And, uh, and Justin was tough to beat,

but by the end of the year, we had, we had gotten our stuff pretty, pretty dominant. It just was

a little bit too late in the season. Yeah. So talk about, you know, the breakout season in 2011.

You qualified on the pole before that in 2010, you qualified on the pole at the valley, uh,

valley star 300 and finished fifth at Martinsville race. Uh, you won five races at South Boston,

then you went to motor mile and ran and won 18 races in 2011. You went to track championship

and also the 300 at Martinsville. Yep. 2010, Martinsville still hurts me. I was, uh, I remember

racing Dennis Setzer and I thought that was the coolest thing in the world. And, uh, was he in

he was in Charlie Long's Romeo guest. Oh, yeah. So it was super cool. Dude, I went, um,

I went to, I think in 94, I went to Wilkesboro in my sun drop car and, um,

I knocked, went to crash on the back straightaway and I knocked the nose off of it, but that Romeo

guest, uh, car along was driving it for a second. Yeah. I think it was stout. Yeah.

People don't know car along like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? But he used to be damn good

in late mile stock in the mid nineties. Yeah. He grew up not far from me at Rocksboro, but yeah. So he,

so, uh, Setzer was driving that car in this particular race. Yeah. And I remember I was

leading it halfway. Like I was beating them pretty bad. Like sets over second and I put like a half

of straightaway on him and I would just sit there and ride like, like we're going to win this race

unless we get wrecked and we come in and we take tires. And when I roll back out, car starts missing

and then it starts missing more. And now it is just sputtering all the way down the straightaway.

I would roll by him in the corner. They roll by me down the straightaway. And, uh, what happened,

they take your carburetor at Martinsville. And when we put it back on, we always,

we ran the plug wires over the top of the motor at that time. Now we run them under. But at that

time we ran it over top of the valve covers and down and we forgot to zip tight. We would always

zip time to the fuel line so they wouldn't get on the header. And we didn't do it. And we had,

we were running on six cylinders, the last part of the race. And you know how bad that is at Martinsville.

So I was able to finish fifth down, no telling how much power, but a dominant car that day,

like it was, it was a hard way to lose that race for sure. Well, you turn around and win it the

next year and you have a pretty dominant season at Motor Mile. Why did you leave

South Boston to go to Motor Mile? Uh, car count. I was just chasing basically wherever the most

cars was. Are you trying to win national championship? I didn't even know about it at the time. I

could have won in 11, but what do you mean you didn't know about it? I didn't even know about it.

I was just racing weekly. Watch it. Look at it. Nope. Damn. I didn't, I didn't even understand

the points then. Otherwise I'd have won it in 11. In the 90s, when I was doing it, they had a weekly

newsletter that was sent out to everybody and it would give you the, each section of the country

had a different division, right? And we were in the Mid-Atlantic with the Myrtle Beach racetrack.

And you know, you'd look at that thing and see who was where. Yeah, I was so unaware of it,

I was in the moment and I would have won the national in 11 if I knew anything about it.

Cause I finished third only running that track. Basically, I might have went to South Boston

for the 200 lap. Yeah, the races, all you needed, right? Yeah. I mean, it was, it was South Boston

had lost some cars at the time or was it Motor Mile? Motor Mile was rolling. They had a little run

there. It was, it was impressive. Like they were sending cars home. Yeah. You know, it was,

it was no joke. So why would the, what was the lure? Can you recall why people wanted to be

going to that racetrack? What was it? Why were they successful? Were they paying great? They were

paying good for sure. Because we would go, South Boston was paying three grand, Motor Mile was

paying five grand for weekly race. And like, yeah, and it was, I mean, at that time, because I didn't

have money, that was very important. Like I was always looked as being a rougher racer,

like a hard nose racer, but I was looking to figure out how to pay my tire bill, how to pay

my engine bills. Like I took it personal when I was on the racetrack and just, you know, so we

were definitely chasing a way to break even at the end of the year. Like we didn't, we just didn't

have the money to not break even. We could, we were, we were always chasing stuff like that. And

it was, our package was good. Our engines were good. Kowalski had really good power at that time.

And who was racing at Motor Mile with you? It was Frank Denny was one of them I had to be.

Tommy Lemons. Tommy. Yeah. I mean, all the Denny cars were running good through that time.

Frank Denny had four or five cars at that time running out of his shop. They were always tough.

The Tommy Lemons stuff, Chad Harris, I don't know if you remember Chad, he was good, but

Mike Looney was up there racing. Philip Morris would be up there some nights. So it was just

kind of different. It was kind of, that the core group was probably 20 of us, but it was always

10 to 15 that would kind of jump in from different tracks, whether it was Hickory or whatnot.

So it was, it was always competitive. Hey, this is Dale Hart Jr. And for all the latest

Dale Jr. download gear, including the I'm old drinks and beer t-shirt we've been talking

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You won the national championship in 2012, track championship at South Boston with 19 wins. So

you go back to South Boston. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it was an interesting time of my life really,

but it was nice sleeping in my own bed at South Boston. That's for sure. But yeah, like I said,

that was kind of Philip won the title in 11. And then I got to go to the national banquet

that year because I finished third. So at that point, I'm like, I'm going where Philip Morris is,

because if he won a national title, I just need to beat him. So I would just go wherever he was at.

But 19 damn races, dude. I can't even imagine. They ain't many people in the world

that go, you know, do a short track and dominate a short track like that. I mean,

there are a lot of great names in the weekly racing ecosystem and the regional ecosystem.

You followed that up with another championship 2023 or 2013, I'm sorry, back at motor mile

and 24 wins. Yeah. You won the murder of each 400. Yeah, that was my first time ever racing there.

No. That was my first race. That's a good old place. It was super cool. I remember I was about

a lap down with 30 to go and when I went, I was coming in our hurry and I took the lead on the

last lap. So it was it was pretty cool. So but yeah, now I was a super cool track. We unloaded,

we want that great. And I remember just they had like little turtle shells in the corners and it

was all about timing when you touch those things and like I could get my left front on it and it

would just make a car rotate. And once I figured that out, I could get so low up off the corner

and just get the wheel out of it and just straight drive. So are you realizing at this point,

it's roughly 2012, 2013, you're literally only five years into this whole experience,

but you're winning dozens of races at these race tracks every year. You're dominating

at these race tracks. Yeah. At that time, I thought there's no way I'm not going to make it.

Yeah. I thought there's no way I'm not going to make it. No way I won't get a phone call. Did

I have a meeting with Kyle Bush about I didn't actually meet with Kyle. I met with his guy.

They wanted me, he wanted me to run his truck. And I was like, man, this is like,

this is awesome. You know, and I can't remember. It was like 1314 somewhere in there.

And I thought, this is it. And I went there and we sat down and he's like, dude, we would love

to have you. Your resume is incredible. Like you're our number one prospect. And he was like,

we can get some, we can get some funding and help you. But this is the number that is going,

that you're going to have to come up with. And when I seen that number, I was like,

I mean, this is a kid that didn't have $10,000, you know, and I was just

at that moment, it hit me like, man, how am I going to ever get an opportunity? You know,

and it was kind of, it was tough for me to swallow. And I just, I said, dude, I really

appreciate your time, but I don't know how I can do that. You know, I don't have any connections

like that. My family has no, you know, we can barely late model race. And so I thought it was

going to, you know, like when I went down there, I didn't realize how things worked really. And

so I remember touring the shop and the trucks. And I remember all the excitement. And then I

remember that part of it. And I remember that like feeling in my stomach. And I was like,

the realization of what it takes to do this, which is just an expensive sport, right? Takes

employees, it takes engines, it takes back to the bone vehicles. Like it's just, just how it works.

But at that time I was like, man, I just don't know. So, and then the, the winter of 13, I just

wanted to, I started driving for rusty skews a little bit in the Hooters Pro Cup. It was actually,

it had been renamed to the X1R Pro Cup. Jack McNally was running it. Yep. And so I won the

last pro cup race there ever was. I went to Southern, Southern national and settle in the poll and

I outrun Clay Rogers. And I mean, I hadn't ever drove these cars. These big, heavy tanks, you know,

and I've only ever drove a Lake Mono. And I mean, I just put it on Clay Rogers. And like that dude

was a legend in them cars. And so I won that race. I let every lamp on it. And after that, Bruce Cook

called me and, well, Bruce Cook. Yep. And he said, look, I'm taking over at Shiggy Hattori's and

would you be interested in driving the K&N car? Yeah, absolutely. And he said, well, it's between you

and Corey LaJoy and somebody else at that time. And so, of course, I'm hopeful, but I don't know

what's going to happen. Corey LaJoy was winning a lot of races at the time and in his own K&N car.

And he ended up, they called me one day and was like, if you wanted, it's yours. I'm like,

where I slide, you know, so I went down there, went to, you know, I'd been to the shop a couple

times. And I was like, well, this is this is it. This is how it starts, you know, and they had,

we went to a test session at Gresham in Georgia. That was the first time I ever drove a car.

And me and my teammate went to the same session there. And I had been faster than him all day,

like a lot. And he had experience. And they were like, man, your car is just whatever,

we had different package that crew chief brought up a package. And then my the crew chief, I had

Randy Gulls, he brought a certain package for me. And they were like, drive his car and just see if

it's the car or what. Well, I drove his car, it was faster than my car. And I was like,

dang, I was like, whatever that thing is, let's put in it. So we go to Newsom Urna. And that was

the first race of the year to K&N. And I qualified in the top three. And me and Daniel Sorrez pretty

much had checked out. And I was racing him hard for the lead. And we had a pit, we had like a

halfway stop. And we come in. And when they checked my tires, the left rear was going flat.

I started getting loose in and the left rear was going flat. Well, if you put a tire on,

they send you to the rear. And, you know, 30 cars, Gulls made the call to put 40 pounds

of air in the left rear. Like we probably started the race with 10, right? Holy s***, 10.

Just hope it would last. Yep. He put 40 pounds in the left rear. That thing fired off so tight.

Oh, I bet. I was able to keep it up front. And then when the tire got to the right pressure,

I run them back down. And me and him had a heck of a battle for the lead. About 10 to go.

It started hitting the race track. It was so low. And I was still going to finish second

with the thing almost completely flat. And we had a caution. I got, I couldn't get going on it,

getting into one. And I got moved. I ended up still finishing fifth with the flat left rear.

So we go, we race at Daytona on the back stretch. And we had. Damn, you run that race? I did.

And the K&N car. Yep. And so we go to the back stretch at Daytona. And we had two different

cars. We had a composite car that I run at New Sumerna. And that thing was really good.

And then we had a, they had an older steel body car that we run at the back stretch

because they figured the race was going to be rough. Well, that thing wouldn't travel.

Like it was like, it was bound up. Like it just, I'm like, something is wrong with the front end.

They would take rounds out and it wouldn't travel any further. We'd just stop at the same point.

Well, I still finished fifth with it. And I saw I had two top fives and we go to Bristol

and we're back in the composite car. And practice, I kept blowing right fronts.

I hit the wall. We'd come in, pour the power to clip over. Like, I mean, when I hit, I was hitting.

Yeah. We didn't have a backup in the trailer. We literally poured the power to clip over.

And I was welding because I grew up welding. So I had to weld out, fixing things. And man,

we'd go out and blow another right front and you come in and do it. And they had something off

on the spacers. Well, they finally put enough spacer on the right front that it quit rubbing,

rubbing whatever it was. Something like that. Yep. Yep. So got enough spacer, got it spaced out,

qualified like fifth or six. I remember I just took third and I'm like, I'm going to win this

race today. Like we're going to win it. And there it was in the K&N deal. It's still kind of like

that, but it's a big speed difference from the cars up front to the cars at the back. So we were

lapping some of these guys like fast every three to five laps. Like it was bad. Well, we had just

took the green. I was third and I would run a big arc. Those cars don't have a lot of motor. I would

drive it straight in at the wall, like right against the wall on entry. And then I would turn

my car down the hill hard. And it was like I had a hundred more horsepower down the straightaway.

And I was just killing them. And when I turned into one, I was against the wall and I come down

the hill to get a good run out of two. And I'm coming down the hill. And all of a sudden,

there's a car sitting like this in front of me. And you know, Spider missed it, just didn't see it.

A lap car that we had just lapped a couple laps ago spun. And I'm literally from,

you know, two car lengths from him running 120 mile an hour. I turned the wheel as hard as I

could because I was going to hit him straight in the door and I hit him in the left front.

And it, I mean, it was probably the hardest hit I've ever had in my life. And it,

it killed that car. It killed the motor, killed the engine. And it ripped the truck arms out of it,

like bad day. And I was actually leading the points because Soares was having a bad day.

So at the time I was going to come out of Bristol as a K&M points leader.

So all we had left was a steel body car. And we took that thing to the next couple of racetracks and

I could make it go fast, but it had that same problem. It wouldn't travel. So

I ended up qualifying fourth at Richmond. It was terrible. The car was terrible,

but I could make speed for a couple laps. Only time I've ever been lapped in my life.

I got lapped at Richmond and I just remember being embarrassed. And I got,

they shut down the 11 team that week. And I remember getting that phone call that,

you know, they were pretty much out of money and we're going to have to shut this thing down.

And I didn't, I didn't have no money. Toyota was paying for me to drive this car.

So they shut the team down. I remember that phone call

and I remember so many different emotions, like, because I knew the last couple of weeks had been

tough driving that car. And I'm like, man, that would be tough to do this all year long and

struggle when I know I can win races. But also on the other side, I'm like, man,

because they had planned, they had bought some, at the time it was nationwide series,

nationwide cars from me, the Cowboys or Joe Gibbs. I can't remember which one it was.

And that there was rumors that because I was so fast that they were going to put me in that car

at the end of the year. Ended up, uh, Johnny Salter got in it and then he got replaced by

Ross Chastain and that's kind of, kind of how that worked. But that was, that was just a tough,

you know, just a tough sequence because I will always be thankful that I had that opportunity.

So I don't mean that any of that in a negative way. It's just the timing of it just didn't

quite rely on up for whatever reason it was, but it was a super cool experience. I got to do some

cool things and like Randy Goss was awesome. He was my crew chief that dude. He run, um,

he run these motorcycles, flat track motorcycle stuff. And he, he, he was like the, um, he was

a national champion one year of it. And, uh, so it was a super cool experience on that part. He was

actually, he's actually Amarola's father-in-law and I didn't have, um, I remember I didn't have

all the stuff that I needed to pass for like the undergarment stuff and like Amarola was like giving

me, you know, stuff at the time. So all of that was super cool. So I have a lot of good memories

from it. Um, of course I would have wished that it would have ended up better. Um, but that was,

that was pretty much the last call that I ever had. You had to go back to late models. Yep. I

think I won 30 races in 14. Yeah. It was pretty crazy. Did that make you feel any better? It did

in a way, but it didn't in a way. Like because I felt like I had proven that you belong somewhere

else. And so I kind of had an empty feeling. Like I had a, it was a fulfillment in victory lane,

but it was also an empty feeling in another way. Yep. You, um, when you go back to run

in 2015 around with the, uh, with the NASCAR late model stock car,

you had 23 wins at motor mile, but you'd also start racing against Josh Berry.

We had cars out there racing and, um, you know Josh's story, how he come from Nashville,

ran a few races and got his, got his legs underneath him and we just kept racing him and

kept racing him. Right. And we, um, our little program wasn't nothing to, uh, wasn't very intimidating.

Wasn't nothing to be worried about, um, up until Josh got, uh, you know, got behind the wheel and,

and he developed as a driver and as a mechanic as well. And we got some people in there to help and

our team got pretty strong. Um,

um, you and him would end up having some pretty incredible battles to, to, to gather. You, one,

one notable dustup was at the Denny Hamlin short track showdown. Um, what's your, what's your

relationship with Josh? What was it early? What did it develop into? I think early it was, um,

you know, it, we didn't, I kind of like what I said earlier. I was kind of a hermit at the race track

because I just worked on getting my race car. So I probably, I didn't have all the friendships at

the race track that a lot of guys had just because I literally was thinking about how to beat these

guys every second. But, um, but there was no doubt that he was going to be talented and a threat.

And I think for Josh, he was coming in and I didn't always appreciate early on the way he

raced me, but I think he just had something to prove, you know, because I was the guy winning

and whenever you come into something new, you're probably going to, he probably felt the pressure

of driving for you too and wanting to perform. So a lot of times I felt like, um, felt like I got

used up a few times early on and I think that I would give it back and then it just kind of,

at one point me and him were just kind of in a heated, heated battle it seemed like every week.

And, um, it was just a competitive fitness and I started like, I feel like away from the race

track, we would have been, we would have been buddies, but it was just, um, two guys that wanted

to, to be the best and it just created some of that own track stuff. And I'll never forget the

Hamlin race, which made me mad that day. He wrecked me twice in one day. Um, he wrecked me in the

heat race and, uh, everybody had the heat race to get in and, uh, he spun me getting into one.

I did a complete 360 in front of the field, chucked it in third and kept on digging and still,

still ended up winning the heat race. And, uh, but I'm like, no, God, like we're both locked in way,

like, why would you spend me right here? And, uh, so then I didn't say anything. Everything was

all right. And I remember the last lap. I had, um, Timothy Peters on the outside and

Chase Elliott was driving my car that night. Damn, really? Yeah. Chase Elliott was in my car. I had,

I had multiple cars there. Chase Elliott, I had Dalton Sargent. So I was checked out. I'll never

forget it. I was leading. Chase was running third and, um, a dad gum power steering hose

blew on Chase's car with like five to go. And I mean, I'm gone and sets up the caution.

And, uh, so the next restart, I get away. I'm going to win again. About to come to the white

and Dalton wreck, um, see Falk. Oh, it's another caution. So that was my other car that was in

the race. So both of my cars cause caution. So we lined up again and, um, for the last green

white checker, and I had Timothy Peters to my outside and Timothy's a really good racer.

And I had a really good run off of two and I could have cleared him,

but I rolled out of the throttle on the straightaway to keep him out there.

Cause I knew if he got down, he's going to get, he's going to get, he's going to rough me up.

Yeah. And not, I mean, nothing anybody would have done, you know? So I just tried to keep him

there. Well, that little bit of rolling out the throttle allowed Josh to drive it into three so

deep and get to my bumper and, you know, ended up spinning me and racking me. And, um, Timothy

goes on to win the race, coming to the checkered. But I remember trying to rub Josh after the race

and we hit a little bit. And then these cars are bad about trying to ramp tires and it looked

worse than what it was. And, um, I remember after the race, uh, you know, me and him were,

of course, not happy with one another. And, um, I remember getting a message from Kelly and, uh,

really? Yes. She sent me a message and I said, yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Yep. I didn't know who it was. And, uh, of course I didn't have her number.

And, uh, but when I read the message, I was no, that's interesting. I didn't know that.

Yep. That's the first, first interaction me and Kelly ever had. So Josh and you, um, raced

against each other a lot. And, and, you know, I've, I've, I've, I remember Josh telling me how much

he respected you and thought of your town, you know, how much he looked up to your ability,

how much he measured himself, I think, about against you for, you know, the probably the

first half of his, you know, late model career. Um, you know, I, um, y'all eventually figured

out a way to find some common ground. How did that happen? So my, uh, the guy that helped me was

Winston Brooks, my crew chief, and, uh, Josh ended up marrying Winston's daughter. And, you know,

Winston and me are like this. It's like, we are just super close. We're close to this day. Like,

he's like another dad to me really. And so we, I think we both knew we had to figure this out.

Like how are we, you might see each other more often now that Josh is married into the family.

Yeah. And Winston was still helping on my car at the time, you know, and Josh was a part of

family. So it was just, I think that was, and we both tremendously respected the other's talent,

right? No matter what happened on track, we both knew that that was special that we could do. And,

and so I think it was just a balance of knowing that, Hey, we're not trying to put Winston on a

bad spot because me and you are fighting our argument every week on a race track. So I think

it was more of a respect deal for Winston. You won another national championship in 2017,

but you raced mainly at Myrtle Beach 15 wins down there. What made you want to drive all the way

down there to race every weekend? Car count again. Really? Yeah. Car count. So that was kind of,

that was the time of the year. It's so interesting in a, in a four or five year span, the car counts

flowed and you chased them, right? I did. I went wherever the cars were. So I was a long haul every

week, but I had my, me and my wife had our daughter in 16. So I didn't race a ton in 16.

Really? And that's, yeah, I think like I raced some, don't get me wrong, but not a ton because

it was a lot of things going on. And only, only 12 wins that year. Yeah. Down year. Down year. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so I didn't race much that year, but 17, I decided that I wanted to try to win another

national and go in the best place to go with Myrtle Beach. So that's how we ended up going

down there. And that was a special national title for me just because I had, you know,

my little family with me traveling. And it was, it was cool because that place was tough and demanding

and you know how hard it is on tires. And to win the national, I needed to win not only the first

race, but I needed to be able to have enough tire to win the second race because we run a lot of

races. So it was, it was cool times. Myrtle Beach was such a cool racetrack. Like I miss that place.

Me too. So after the 17 championship season, you would go to the cars tour. What about,

what was it about the cars tour that was interesting? It's a touring series that runs a lot of different

tracks, but it's a big breakaway in culture and, and travel and probably expense from race and

weekly at the same place. Yeah. I think, you know, I was driving for Mr. Kiker. Mr. Kiker

was sponsoring me at the time and he was interested in it too. Just doing something different. And

you'd kind of mastered the track championship, the national championship. You'd kind of,

we'd done that. It was looking for something year after year. Yep. And that was a way for

us to do something different and have it fresh. So we, we got on the road. We, we were, we were

still like, I had not built, like I was still mostly running that 2010 Hedgecock car. And then

Mr. Kiker had, he did have a Marlowe car that I would run some. So we kind of bounced between

those cars, but we kind of found out pretty quick that we probably were probably a little bit under

chassis because all the cars tour guys were building brand new stuff every year. And we still

had a successful year. We won at Bristol. We won at Myrtle Beach and finished sacking into points.

Like it was a good year, but it was definitely a little bit more challenging. We were not used to

some of the rules. The rules were a lot more open than the NASCAR stuff, the weekly stuff. So

a lot of information from down here was trickling into that cars tour. And we were probably a

little bit behind at first when we come in there. How would you, how would you compare that today

with the rule book of the weekly racer versus the cars tour rule book? It's still quite a bit different.

And there's pros and cons each way. The NASCAR rule book is too thick, honestly,

and the cars tour rule book used to probably be a little too thin. I think it's a pretty good balance

at the cars tour rule book now. It's just, the problem is like the shocks went so different on

paths. And now it's going to be hard to merge that because the money's been spent. The money is

spent. So somebody's going to take a tremendous loss. We allow a little different shock in our

series and the cars tour. And to your point, it's not easy. It's not an option for us to say,

hey, we'll just do what the weekly series is doing, because our guys have all this stuff

and all this inventory on the shelf. And they're, they're, they would have to come to us,

which they maybe aren't interested in doing either because that'd cost them money, their

team's money. But yeah, it's kind of something that was done years ago. It's kind of toothpaste,

you know, toothpaste side of the tube at this point. But after that cars tour season in 2018,

you decided to go back to South Boston. You're going for the track championship and you had

an own track incident with Philip Morris. Is this the one where the guy runs on the track,

rips the damn wire and harness out of your car? He tried to, yeah. What happened? So me and Philip,

you know, we were Philip Morris for everybody that's listening. So I've, I've, I've got a connection

to Philip Morris. Now I don't know him personally, but he came in 1999 and bought a race car from

DEI, one of the AC Delco cars. And this was car number five. All right. Car number five

was a car that Tony senior and Tony junior gave to me that I could go take and race

as the second car at Michigan and a couple other places. And I loved it. In 1998, they decided to

let me drive the AC Delco car and they were going to get rid of car number five. They didn't need

it. It's like they didn't even want it in their fleet the year before, right? So it was a cast

off to give it to me and I begged them to keep it and we would race it at Bristol. I'd run second

to the Hermes Sadler at Bristol and we would end up eventually having some success before I crashed

it off turn two, I think at Darlington. But we ended up getting that car fixed and running it a

little bit and I loved it, but we sold it. They finally in 99 convinced me that it was too old

and they didn't need it no more. And Philip bought it, I believe. And so he actually raced it

at Rockingham and I remember relating to race him driving by me that car. And I was like, damn,

there goes number five. So one of the guys that works for me was Philip's tire guy, his whole

career. And now he works for me and we've become friends, but he's told me that story. He's told

me about how good it was at Rockingham and he's told me about buying the car. So that's funny

that you bring that up. But Philip was, he was an incredible talent too. Like in my career,

he was the toughest guy ever raced against. Hands down, bar none, like the toughest guy I ever

raced against. Like he would, one, you just never could figure him out. Like he was running you,

he was running you hard and rough, but fair one week and then the next week he'd dump you and

put you in a wall, you know? So it was just, it was just, it was, I never could quite figure him

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He got mad because Austin pulled up, so he slammed the radio in the windshield,

and he was about to jump in the right side of the car, and I don't know what this guy's about to do.

So I fired the car up and tried to get away from him. Well, he kind of rolls off the side of the

car, you know, and you know, of course, it was a big video about it. Was he trying to yank the

harness out of it, or no? I don't really know, because I have an idea. Crazy. Yeah. I mean,

you really want to get somebody. Yeah, but you don't know what that guy's going to do, right?

Because he got, like I said, he got a screwdriver. What is this guy about to do? So I tried to just

get out of there. I remember that being a big deal on social media. It was. It was, you know,

I probably got some flack for that, but I'm like, what would you do in that situation, you know?

Oh, yeah. It's this is just wild. Yeah.

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NASCAR season one to remember. You return to the car store after that.

As an owner. Yeah. Yeah. Is that kind of when you decided that you're just gonna

change what you're doing in terms of driving on cars? What was the what was the basis of that

decision? So 19, I come back home to South Boston. We had a good year. We didn't, we didn't win a

championship or nothing, but we won the most races. Like it was a successful year. We won the 30,000

race at Orange County for the cars tour, which was, I think that was only cars to a race I run that

year. Me and Josh had a heck of a battle for the win and that thing. And at the end of that year,

I was just kind of out of crossroads in life. You know, I was like,

I don't know. I've won these cars to a races, won these local races and won these track championships.

I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul to kind of keep things going at the house and family and stuff.

And I got a daughter, I got a three year old daughter and I just not, nobody's called. I'm just

not gonna, like I didn't know what more I could do at that level. I'd been at that level for 10 years

now and it was, it was the toughest thing I ever did in my life. Like it was trying not to be selfish

because I was where I'm at. It's not a lot of possible employees to help work on cars and stuff.

So I'm taking away from possible income I could be having by working on something

and making a living and providing for my family or I can keep racing and just barely squeaking by.

And that just wasn't fair to my daughter and it wasn't fair to my wife and it wasn't really fair

to any of them. And I had had such a good career was like

that Mr. Kiker was paying for my racing, but at the same token when I'm racing every week,

that leaves me hard to make a living, very hard to make a living because I'm working on the cars,

I'm setting the cars up. Yeah, so that was definitely tough for sure. And but it was,

it was just what I needed to do. A lot of people like Corey Heim was driving for me,

started driving for me. So let me get this straight. Do you have a shop?

Yeah, so in 2014, I built the shop that I'm in now.

And so you're going to take and I was already working on other people's cars.

You already had cars in the shop. So my whole career that I raised basically,

like when I was winning all these races, I was also keeping up three to four other cars

at the same time. And it was only me and one or two guys. So you can imagine the workload we had.

But I was doing that. Like, I mean, I don't even know how I survived. I didn't sleep much hardly.

I wasn't at home much. But I had to do that to pay the bills

to be able to afford to live. But I was also trying to race and work on my car.

But so like when I was at the racetrack, just like at the Hamlin race in 14, I had

I had Chase Elliott in a car. I had Dalton Sergeant in a car. I had GR Waldrop in a car.

And I had me in a car. And it's me and one, we had me, Dave and Chris at the time. So it was

three of us. And we had four cars at the racetrack. So you know how much work that was. So like,

if the crazy part was I had all that success through them years, but I was,

I was working on other stuff way more than I worked on mine. Like mine was kind of always

the last thing we would do. We had to take care of the customers first. And I, at that point at

19, my body is like, man, you can't, you can't do this no more. Like you're going to have to cut

back on something. Something's got to give. Something's got to give. But you have a foundation

in place in terms of what the business would eventually become. Yeah. You got the race cars,

the shop. So you start, you shift from driver to owner. Corey Heim, other drivers would come in

there, most notably Butterbean. And you would, you would start driving, you know, taking cars to

the cars tour races. You still got other cars that are racing at South Boston. You got different

points in this whole game in the last six years. You got cars doing a little bit of everything.

And I've, I've watched you when races as an owner, I've watched your, your is, you seem to be

very rewarded and fulfilled by what you went through with Butterbean, for example, right? Watching

him become the driver. He was already a really good race car driver and you helped him, you know,

take the next step and you watched him graduate, right? Going up, do that thing that you never

got to do. So is owning the cars fulfilling? It's not what I ever intended on doing in the sport.

It is fulfilling. It is,

it is still passionate. I am so passionate about winning and the sport and helping

mold people into what they want to be, but it's not driving. Like that was what driving got me

into the sport and driving is my, it is absolutely what I want to do. Like it is, like if I could

drive every week and figure out how not to sacrifice and lose financially my family and

hurt my family, that's what I would do. I mean, I would, I would be driving race cars every single

week. That's what I love. That's what I want to do. That's what I always wanted to do. The

moments that I built with those people though are so special too. Like the moments I built with

Corey Heim, the moments I built with Butterbean, the moments I built with each of these different

drivers along the way. I had special times, man. And it taught me a lot too. Like working on other

people's cars taught me that the driver is a very critical piece of this puzzle because we could

take the same cars to the track every week with the same setups, same suspension, same everything.

And we, you know, you have somebody special in it. They're going to be competing for the win.

And you have somebody that's got some work to do. We're running 15th to 20th and we got the same

stuff. So it really even opened my eyes up even more. Like when I was racing every week, I thought,

oh man, I got the secret setup. I got the secret. Like I just didn't hit on this. I didn't hit on

that. There's really no secrets in this racing game. Like it's about working hard, maximizing

everything you can as a driver. You got to have good cars, no doubt. But the driver plays such

an important part in it. And I was fortunate enough to have some talented drivers come through

and they made our cars look good even when I, you know, wasn't driving. And that was,

that was definitely critical. We had some years that we struggled to and it was just all part of

the process. So I hadn't, I'd had a couple winless seasons there and that little stretch I wasn't

driving and that was tough because I wasn't used to that. I was used to winning a lot of races.

And that was a part that would eat at midnight because I would just work twice as hard. Like

I'm like, man, if I work just twice as hard, I'll get this thing back in Victor Lane. But

no matter how hard I worked, I couldn't quite get there with it at times. And that was a little

bit frustrating, but my passion never went away. It was just kind of re-channeled. And when I quit

in 19, I just, I never thought it would go seven years basically with Harley driving. Like I didn't,

I felt like you had decided that you were done. I never imagined being done. I felt like that you

had found a way to accept it, I guess. That's what I told myself. That's what I keep telling myself.

Dude, I'm a pretty damn good reader people and I would see you at the race track and I didn't see

that, you know, I didn't see it in your eyes. Yeah, I tried to hide it. I really did.

You got a chance to get back behind the wheel and that kind of was brought on by Butterbean himself

actually getting his opportunity to move up. He was. And so they said, hey, man,

I want you to run the Martinsville race. Yeah, it actually, it actually got led on. My dad got sick

in 24 and he was in the hospital and, you know, he had a surgery and things kind of got complicated

in the surgery and I made a deal with him there. I was like, at one time, it didn't look good.

And I made a deal. I was like, dad, if you'll fight right here

and get better, I said, I will find the funds and we will go race together at Martinsville.

Promise. And dad pulled through and everything ended up working out thankfully. And so at that

point I knew I had to figure it out and Butterbean knew my story and knew that. But so I was planning

on reaching out to some different people that helped me in the past to go run this race.

And about that time, Butterbean got his deal, like you said, and I think we were, I don't know if we

were at ACE or where we were, we might have been at Langley. I can't remember. I can't remember

exactly, but I remember after the race, Butterbean and his sponsor, Mr. Staten, come up to me and they

were like, Lee, we want to tell you, Butterbean's got the truck race at Kansas. And so I knew that

Kansas was always falls on Martinsville weekend. And I was like, my day, I won't, that's great,

but I'm gonna miss you driving at Martinsville. I was planning on racing me and him racing together,

you know? So I was tickled for him, but on the one hand I was like, but there you go.

I'll have to figure this all out. And about that time they were like, we want you to drive

the three car at Martinsville. And I was like, really? And he was like, yeah, he's like, we,

you don't have to worry about sponsorship. I got you. And we just, as much as you've worked for us

and done for us, we want you to just go out there and have fun. And man, it meant a lot. You know,

it had meant a lot. And it had been six years since I run anything full time, well, five years,

and four years since I had drove period. And I had kind of let myself go physically,

like I had gained weight. I wasn't in the best shape. And I think some of that was just because

I didn't, like I had drive to win, but I didn't have that drive that I had when I was racing.

Like I was taking care of my body and all that. So we go there and we get to race. And I remember

me and Connor Hall battling for the win in the heat race. And I thought like I'll add a little

bit of the heat race. And it was just kind of surreal, really, that I had been away that long.

I immediately went to competing for the up front at Martinsville. I run top 10, almost the whole

event. Failed a little bit at the end, ended up 13th. And I remember after the race, just

that whole moment with my dad and sharing it, that was all just so special to me, you know, because

he loved racing just as much as, just as much as I did, you know, like it was a passion of his

and a thing that me and him shared together. Because like I said, when I was a kid, we didn't

spend a lot of time together because he was always going working. So it was probably what we

spent the most time together doing. And so the whole moment meant a lot to both of us. But

the 13th place finished bothered me, bothered me like hell, you know, and like,

most people be tickled to death to run 13th at Martinsville because so many cars don't even

make it. But for me, man, it was like, I cannot have people thinking that I'm a 13th place driver

now. And so I was like, I got to figure out how to do this again next year. So I didn't race at all

for a whole another year. And about a month and a half before Martinsville, it hit me. I can't,

I got to get back in shape. Like I got to start working on this. So I started eating better. I

started working, started working out, running, biking, different things. And I still wasn't in

the shape that I wanted to be when I was at Martinsville last year, but I was in a lot better

shape than the year before. And I remember unloading off a trailer and went straight to the top of the

board and practice P1 led both practices, qualified second, just barely missed the poll. I got a

little loose into one. And I remember just racing up front the whole race. And for me, I was always

a racer where I tried to position myself for the end, take care of my equipment and just position

myself for when it mattered. And I had said, I wanted to take the lead with about 50 to go in my

mind. And I think I took it with like 49 to go. And everything was working out great. I was like,

man, we, this is everything's, the car was great. I mean, it was, it wasn't perfect, but it was good.

And I remember I took two to go and I had a 10 car length lead and I'm just right. I'm lifting

early and just, just being smooth. And I'm like, golly, I just gotta get 18 seconds. I just gotta

get to the white, the white, I get to the white is done. Yeah. And I dive off into turn one and

I see the caution lights and I'm like, oh no, because I know, you know how that

show, yeah. So we, we, we rack them and we go green and the, the first restart,

whether restart we had had like 15 laps prior to that, the 14 got a good enough launch with me

that when we come down the back stretch, I kind of killed the, the, the zero car out there and

just kind of left him hanging. I didn't clear him. I left him hanging to make sure that 14

can get inside of them and get those guys racing and then I could drive away.

Well, this restart, the 14 didn't get going and he had a bad restart. So when I come off a two,

I'm in a, I'm in a predicament. Like if I, I can't really leave him hanging out there because

it's the next car so far back, like he's going to get to you. Yeah. Yeah. He's just going,

it's where do you want it? Turn three or turn one? So I cleared him down the back and we get

in a three and we're coming to the white and he moved me up the hill, which

Ms. Martinville, I would have done the same thing. That's why I didn't want to clear him.

And so he moved me up the hill. We get down into, get down at the front stretch. I lead

to the line on the top. We roll into one and I'm thinking in my head as we're going in front

stretch, I'm always thinking about the next corner, no matter what. And we roll in there.

I said, man, I'm going to, I'm going to get in here soft and let, because I feel like he's going

to run me up the hill here. And I said, when he runs me up the hill, I'm going to turn under him

and I'm going to be head positioned into three and I'm going to win this race. We get into one,

kind of does what exactly what I was expecting. I get the car pointed and I'm about to come down

the hill and the 14 drives at the end and I can feel the air pressure change. You know what it

feels like when that car sticks and knows in there. So I had to completely bail on what I was

going to do out of two. So that messes my exit of two up because I've got this car positioned to do

come down the hill and get the wheel out of it. So now I got to hold this 14 off. So I had to turn

my focus on defense for a second and I kind of slapped the 14 with the left rear to kind of

break his momentum. But the problem is the zero had such a good run out of two. He put a pretty

good gap on me down the straightaway. The only mistake he made, he entered three really low

and gave me an opportunity to really arc the corner and have a lot of momentum getting to him.

And I got to his bumper and of course, you know, I could have hit him harder, could have spun him

whatever, but I didn't want to race that way. I tried to knock him up the hill enough and

I turned under him. The problem was when I kind of hit him, I didn't have enough weight on my rear

tires and I just kind of, I was spinning the tires up off of four and I was like, come on,

bang. And so I tried to break his momentum, get in his door a little bit and I ended up losing

by a few inches, but it was a hell of a race. And I mean, the kid did nothing wrong. Like,

he did exactly what I would have done. It was a lot of emotions at one time though,

because I was so close to going back to victory lane. Like I hadn't won a race since 2019 because

I hadn't hardly raced and I almost just won at Martinsville. And so I was processing all of it.

And when I jumped out the car, I'm like, I'm going to go congratulate him because

he did a bad to the bone job. Like he did exactly what he needed to do. So I remember going over

there and giving him a hug and told him he did a good job. And I remember his crew guy was kind

of looking at me funny when I was going over there. What you doing? Yeah. They weren't sure

about reaction, you know? And so I remember all that too. And just I remember interviews and

you know, some of the questions I was asked and I just remember

hearing another team member when they asked a question,

just where I stacked up and he had a response that made me emotional. And it kind of hit me.

And what do you think it was? What was the response?

They, he just said I was the greatest of all time. And the guy that said it was a special one,

like Phil Warren's son actually. So he carried some weight with me. And

but yeah, it just hit me the way he said it. And the question that was asked, I can't remember

exactly how it was asked from Weaver. But yeah, it just hit me because I knew how special that

moment was. I knew that that was something that I had missed so freaking much. Like I had missed

the competitive side of outsmart and like not just driving, but in the car, I feel like I'm

always thinking like, I feel like that's why I was such a good racer. Like I'm always thinking

ahead in the race. I'm always thinking about the next corner. I'm always thinking about

where I want to position myself. And it was so good to feel all that again. It was so good to

be sitting in that car and figuring out how to maximize my day and figuring out how to be better

than that guy and better than that guy and better than that guy and figuring out their weaknesses

and just the whole chess match is what I enjoy. It's, man, it is, I tell my drivers all the time,

don't take this for granted. Don't take it for granted because

it can all be gone like that. It can all be gone. And I just want them to enjoy it. I want them to

realize how lucky they are because it was guys like me that would have gave anything to race,

race cars for a living, you know, anything. Like that was my dream from being a little kid

and the whole experience up to this weekend and that journey that it's been to get there.

That's why it meant so much to me. And that's why we had so much support from fans. That's why

we had so much support from different sponsors. They could relate to it. They could relate to

the blue collar guy that, that did things the hard way. And I think that your fan base has

already been incredible. So to have junior nation behind me was super cool, but junior nation is

hard to believe could grow anymore than what it was, but it's continued to grow and people are

appreciating the opportunity that you give guys like me. Well, I don't know if you'd have won

that Martinsville race, whether you'd have got it. Yeah, I don't know. You know, I think back to like

Brad keselowski at Memphis getting spun out in that truck race. And if he wins that truck race,

I don't, I don't know whether we end up working together. Justin Algar kind of got chewed up

and spit out on, on in the cup deal and his opportunity at Penske and so forth. And

I don't know, man. I kind of see something in guys that I think is there and

that I think that they could, you know, there's a, there's a diamond in the rough, so to speak, but

something about that. I knew your story and something about how I watch at Martinsville

race. And I was like, no, you know, no, no way that that's his, you know, you worked ever,

you worked as hard as you could to put yourself in position when that race, but the universe didn't.

That wasn't in the plan. Yep. Whatever reason, right? And we don't always get the answers to why

certain things go the way they go. And hell, it's just competition. It's just racing, but it matters.

It matters. Yeah. And honestly, man, that race and you running second and you getting out and

handling it the way you did. And it was shining a light on you.

And it, I mean, it compelled me to try to try to figure out a way for you to

get an opportunity to know what it feels like to be at least a rally level, right?

Yeah. And I'm like, Hey, you know, let's figure this out. You know, we did, you were part of that.

You know, you, I got with you and I said, Hey, this is what we got to do. We got to find some

support. We got it. We can do this much and we can find this much. And it was, it was all, I think,

feasible and realistic. And we were able to, you know, start, we were able to commit to making

it happen. And then you continue to work on your health and your physical fitness.

We gave you all the same time we could, which you took advantage of. You're not comfortable in the

same navigate with motion sickness and all that stuff. But what did you do? What did you do to

instead of like, look, if I get in the same, the motion same, I don't love it. Yeah. Some,

some, some, some sessions, I'm all right. In the next session, I'll get in and get sick.

Most guys, when they get experienced that, they're like, I can't get back in that thing.

I'll do the static rig over here, but I ain't going to do that. Motionary. Let's figure it out.

You're like, no, man, I need to do it. And so you got these VR glasses and started putting

yourself through a lot of personal training sessions on your own time so that when you

would get in the SIM, you were better, less affected, I suppose, by the motion sickness.

Like who thinks to do those things? How did you even hear about that?

Well, when I first went there and did it that first session, I threw up four times at Pratt

and Miller. I'd run outside and throw up and it was all I could do to drive a car.

But I would go out and I brought my bike with me because I had heard that

whenever you throw up, you jump on a bike, it'll help you equilibrium,

and then you can get back in there. So I would just make a circle in the parking lot.

I would run back in and jump in the machine because I know it cannot be cheap to be at

Pratt and Miller. So I had a multiple things going through my mind. I don't want to waste these

guys' time. We got all these engineers here. I've got to get as much laps as I can in this

thing because this is what we're going to unload with, whatever I decide. So I would literally

go throw up, jump a bike, run back in, get in. I'd get about 15, 20 minutes. I'd have to throw

it up, do it back in. So actually my crew chief and Reagan was like, we've heard that

virtual reality glasses can help train you for that. And I was like, really? And I was like,

yeah, because I didn't grow up playing video games because I was working every extra hour I had

was spent working trying to make it in this sport. So video games were new to me. I never

done it. So I was researching and talked to Butterbean about it and trying to figure out

things and ended up getting this virtual reality stuff. MetaQuest 3, I believe is what it is.

You know, I got this boxing game because I'm trying to work out and I've lost 40 pounds of weight

and I've put on muscle. So I'm like, well, if I'm on video game, I want it to be something

that's going to help me as well for the race car. So I'm boxing on this game all the time.

And I don't think the glasses are working. I remember the first time I took them off,

I felt like a little funny, but I'm like, I don't know. I don't think this is going to help,

but I'm going to keep doing it. So I kept doing it. And the next time I got an emotion rig,

I was perfectly fine. I had zero issues. I never got out the car, did the full session.

And I was like, that's amazing. Like I put a lot of time into those virtual reality glasses,

but somewhere deep inside of me, I didn't know that maybe wasting time. Yeah. But it wasn't.

It was definitely worth it. But I know how important it is to be able to see them.

Well, I just think it's interesting to highlight how like you didn't,

you didn't give up on the idea, right? You just found a solution or you are willing to do something

that felt somewhat monotonous or even foolish. You didn't give up on me, right? Yeah. Well,

you didn't give up on me. You gave me an opportunity and that's to me,

I want to show my appreciation by giving everything I got today. I got here an hour early and I

think every person that I could find in the shop, from the fab shop all the way around,

because I build race cars. I know how much works on them. I know the time it takes to put a product

on a racetrack like I drove this weekend. And they are incredible race cars. And the opportunity

to do something here, the opportunity to swipe this key card and be able to get in the shop

is something I dreamed of doing my entire life and something I wanted to do my entire life.

It feels like home to me. And I just want everybody to know how appreciative I am. And

I'm not going to give a half ass effort. I mean, you're giving me the opportunity to always want it.

Why would I stop short? Yeah. That's not happening.

You worked hard all through the whole process to be ready. And I told you, I said, man, you're

going to get, you know the track, right? So when you pull out on a racetrack and it's a rally car,

you know, you're going to recognize everything. But, you know, you're sitting in a car that's going

to accelerate differently. It's going to have their ride quality. The tires are going to feel

different. It's going to do all these brakes will be different. But I told you, I was like,

three, four corners, it's going to all just like merge into, you know, it's all just going to

start making sense. So you're first, you've been in a sim. You didn't really drove the car ever.

You didn't go to Rockingham and test or do none of that. What was the first lapse on the racetrack

like? I want to know, I guess, before that, how excited were you to finally swing your leg over

the door? It was a lot. Like I remember when I flowed with video and me swinging my leg over the

door and I looked at that video and I kind of can see myself take a deep breath. Like I can see

myself because I'm mentally like outside of the race car. I was super emotional inside the race car.

I'm locked in. Oh, yeah. As soon as I get in, I'm locked. Oh, yeah. But I remember trying to

take the moment in. I remember talking to all my teammates. I remember thinking my team. I remember

looking around at the place and being in that venue and knowing what I was about to do.

And I remember my leg being weak when I went to throw it over the door. And after that, I was fine.

But it was incredible. It was all like the time was going by so fast. I was trying to maximize

every part of it from tech to the track wall to every part of it. And I knew that every moment

was the next thing I was looking forward to, but also I don't mind not ever experience that moment

again. There ain't no time to reflect. No, sir. Because they got the way they do the

schedule. It's bam, bam, bam, bam. And the day's over and you're like,

yeah. And I knew how fast it was coming by. So it was crazy. But I'll never forget this. We're

at Homestead and I ran a race there against Josh probably, I don't know, four years ago. It seems

like one of my little one offs I did. No, this was about four or five years. So I'm there and

we go out and practice and we're like 14th or something. We're all right. And I get out of

the car and I'm like, all right, y'all, I think this and that and other. And they're like,

you need to get back in. I was like, what do you mean? Practice is over. They're like,

you're second to go out and they're lining them up. And I'm like,

like, I got to, you know how you need like a few minutes to qualify this for just to get

your mind wrapped around qualifying. And I'm like, damn, I got to jump right in there and go right

back out. And now I'm going to have new tires, taped off, cool, firing off it. You know, I'm

just, my mind was like, this is like what Timmy Hill has to live every week. You know,

I'm not locked in. I don't know how the hell this is going to go. I don't know where to run,

you know, there's all kinds of damn lines all over Homestead. But it was just like a bam,

bam thing. And I was like, how the hell, why in the hell is NASCAR doing it like this? Why

can a guy not get out and reflect for a minute? So for fans that wouldn't know, like our practice

session, I'd never drove a car in my life. Right. Our practice session was from 430 to 520.

We got rain coming. So I'm going to get 50 minutes and something I've never done.

And then we got practice over 520 qualifying starts at 530. It's 10 minutes, 10 minutes goes

by life. It takes you 10 minutes to get out the car and get back in the car. Exactly. So like for

you to be the second to roll out. Yeah, it was time to jump back in. So yeah, it's kind of hard

to explain to people, but it rolls by quick. And it's, it's, I was trying to not let those

moments fleet, but at the same time I was trying to be super locked in and focused on my race car.

Ready for what's next? Yeah, it's coming fast. Yeah. And I felt so, I felt good leading into

qualifying and then it started to rain. I was like, God, so, but I was lucky the nine car

has run enough that we had solid points, solid points. So that was a blessing.

But, but yeah, when I rolled out on the racetrack, I ended up,

you know, I was trying to get heated into breaks and stuff like that. And I ended up rolling in

behind Sheldon Creed. And because I knew he's a good racer, you know, so like when he went by,

I was like, that's a guy, I was kind of, let's see what we got. Yeah. So I remember running with him

for like 20 laps and actually ended up passing him. And I was like, well, we're going to be okay

right here because he's a good racer. But, but so I felt pretty confident at that point. But

that the car, we had planned to make like a 60 lap run, but the first run out, I was too free.

Like to just, just needed to get more lateral grip in it. So we come in, we tightened it up

and they've made a, you know, we pulled a spring rubber or something out of the right rear. And

yeah, it made a big difference. So went back out there and I felt comfortable then. So it was,

it was a, it was a surreal experience though, because like when you drive that Sim, it seems

pretty difficult. Yeah, it's pretty difficult to drive, but it definitely replicated very similar

to how the race car felt. Yes, I agree. I simmed at Bristol quite a lot over the last couple of

years with our cars trying to go run races there. And I was really, really impressed with how I

was able to take everything I was learning in my mock runs and apply it perfectly to the mock run

and qualifying. Cause that's really my weak point is qualifying and the Sim was so, so helpful.

And it helped us too. We would, they'd be like, here's Sam Mayor's setup. It's really good.

All right, I like it. All right, we want to try a right rear shock. Tell me what it does. Well,

it, a little bit better drive off, more turn in the middle. Well, all right, we like that. Leave

that on. And then you go race it and you're like, damn right, it's fast. It's so crazy. Yeah,

I told my guys, I was like, it's hard to believe that you can feel the shock changes. Like they put

the shock on and it's like driving a real race car. Like you literally feel what it does. It's

crazy. It ain't been like that long. The Sim wasn't very useful, let's say six years ago. Yeah,

but now they're dialing it in. And that's the, that's the O'Reilly Sim, which is, you know,

the cup's probably miles, miles, miles better. But Saturday, you know, I want to kind of fast

forward to standing by the car. You know, you got the moments before we get in the race car

when I go run. And this was the way it was to when I was a full time driver. Those are some of the,

the harder moments. Because you don't want to not take appreciation for everybody who's in

your vicinity, right? But at the same time, you want nothing more than to climb in that car

and get kind of get away from everything. Because in the car, it's like you cut the landline.

Nobody can reach you. You're in there by yourself. And it's finally time for you to relax and lock

in. And so the, you know, the post driver intro sort of that little 20 minute window

is a, is a strange time, right? Yeah. And, but this was a, this was a, you know,

this was a little bit different for you. My favorite, you know, you got a lot of people

there that are partners, friends, people that have helped you get to this opportunity and you

want to take opportunities to take photos and document today and all of those things that we

get through all of that process. And that's, that's typical, typical stuff. My favorite, and I hate,

hate to take you here emotionally, but because I know you're, I know where you're going. Listen,

dude, I'm telling you, this was really cool. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a girl dad. I got a little

five and seven year old, your daughters around the same age. But she seems absolutely aware of

what, you know, what she's, what's happening that day, what y'all were doing. She was,

she was, I was watching her and trying to compare her to my child and, and she, you know, she,

my girls go to the race and they're still not sure what racing is, right? They're not sure what

we're doing there and why I'm in that car, you know, daddy's out there in that car. He's out

there. Where is he at? You know, why is he not in the camper? Where is he? And so I'm, my girls

are still sort of a bit oblivious to some of the, some of the things and we'll get there one day

with them. But yeah, and I'm sure your daughter is, is a child at heart, but, but I'm telling you,

man, it was a special moment. It was the, the, we raced all day. We led laps. We had fun. You got

to do all these great things and you got to experience the lows and the highs who did it all.

Yep. But the best moment of the day for me happened before the race ever started. Yeah.

So I'm standing over the right front. She comes up to you. Your wife and her are close by. They

had been, they'd been within, you know, within arms reach for the last several minutes, kind of

hanging around, waiting and, you know, allowing photos and other things to happen. And you waved

her over. She comes over to you, right? And y'all had a moment where you knelt down and gave her a

hug and she got emotional and you got emotional. Now, I understand why you got emotional. Yeah.

Right. But it was really profound for me to see your daughter recognize in that moment

how important this was for you. What a, what a, what a cool, I think what that's got to feel

so good as a dad. Right. Forget the race. Forget how important this is in your life to be able to

experience this one thing. You got to feel so good as a dad to have a daughter that recognizes

how important that was for you and how happy she was to see you get to do it. That's what I saw.

I saw her emotional and thankful and, and knowing my dad's getting ready to do something he's

dreamed about. I have to imagine that you, y'all must have had some conversations

Yeah. leading up to this. You must have shared with her.

She knew how special it was. Yeah. And then you made it, you made it aware, you made it,

you know, you made her aware of it and she was able to go there. And you know how much that

mattered to her now that she knows and understands all this and your wife sat on the pit box behind

me, the whole race. And I knew the whole time she knew exactly how important every single lap

was. We watched you come off turn four time over time, time after time, after time,

just soaking it in and just realizing how big a grin you had on your face. You know, but

I thought that was of all the things that happened that day that embraced with her

and how connected to the moment she was was impressive to me. Yeah. She's,

that's been really special because she's at a age where she understands

how much it meant to me. She saw dad working, she saw dad running up back and forth,

running miles on the driveway and the farm. She saw, she saw me being like that 18 year old kid,

but, but I was her dad, you know, she saw that fire in me and she,

man, she's been like my biggest supporter and just

when we had the post race, when we had that post race meeting Monday morning

here, yeah, the team meeting. Yep. I'm going to tell you how aware she is.

Well, love, she's daddy.

You're not going to get in trouble, are you? And I said, I said, I said, I don't know, baby. I said,

I think they really impressed with my racing. I said, I'm probably going to be critiqued

on my restarts. And I said, I said, but that's okay. I said, that's part of life. I said,

I critique you on things. And I said, dad knows he needed to be better there. And I said,

I'm going to be fine. I said, there's a lot of people there that support me and

have reached out to me and told me, Hey, I've done it before I've had this issue. I said,

so I'm going to be fine. But that's all she could think about that morning. She didn't want

that to be in trouble at this meeting. So she is so aware of the everything. And she knows that

I wanted to be perfect. She knows that how much it meant to me. And she knows that

disappoint, like the disappointment I felt of making that mistake. She knew she could feel that.

She knew that how much that had weighed on me that weekend. Like she knew that I had a great

time and a great experience. But that morning, like she's just so aware of so many things.

And if three or four years ago, she wouldn't have been. So she's nine now. And it's just kind

of amazing to be at that point in life. But yeah, when I gave her the hug, I just told her,

this is why you never give up on your dreams. And I said, whatever you dream of, you fight for

and you just never give up. And so yeah, that was definitely a special time for me for sure.

Something I'll never forget. So yeah, but what are your what's been the conversations with your

wife? She has to, you know, for all these years, she's had to sacrifice, handle business at home.

You had to go do and go be and working on cars for decades. Yeah. But I mean,

she was over my shoulder that whole race right there in the dugout, you know. Yeah.

Incredible support for sure. She what was her? What was her opinion of the whole experience?

She was as relieved as anybody that that the opportunity finally came. She knows

how much it meant to me. She knows how tough it was for me not to drive race cars.

She gets those impersonal conversations that the rest of the world doesn't get, you know, and

she knows that I always felt like I should have made it or should have, you know,

would have done well if I didn't feel it. What's the house feel like today?

Man, they are so proud and happy and just, yeah, it's, you know.

Do you feel like that you got to check a box? Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Or did you turn the page and see a whole bunch of empty boxes?

You got to check still. It's still, it's still, I got both, right? Like

the thing for me is I feel like I can win on that level. I feel like I can win races. So like

it was like, I checked that box and I'm going to forever be grateful for it. But now you want to

taste. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's, it's an addiction, you know, like you get, you get in that thing

and you know, if you go out there and run 20th, you'd be like, maybe I just ain't got it. But

when you feel like you can win a race, you're like, I'd like to do this. 37 years old. Yeah. I mean,

you fit, you fit the Denny Hamlin mold kind of came from the same background.

You've kind of got the same mentality, probably the similar ability in terms of raw talent.

You might be one of those guys that's got eight really damn good years in a tank. I feel like I

have trained hard. Like I ain't seen abs in 20 years and here they are. They're coming back. So

I think I think, uh, when I, uh, when I get out of the race, I ain't never seen abs.

When I get out of the race car though, like the other day I was like,

man, well sweating or nothing. Like I was ready to go another 300 laps. Like, so for me, I feel like

yes, I got a lot in the tank. Like I got to make like, I know if I was to make something happen,

I got to make it happen soon. Um, but I feel like I could win races and be very successful at this

level and, and, and give somebody a tremendous amount of effort because I don't take it for granted.

It's easy to, and it's not 100, it's not their fault, but it's easy to take it for granted when

you're younger because maybe you've had the sponsor that kind of has been supporting you and you've

got this path and this plan and it's all kind of worked out and it's easy for those guys to take

that for granted. Now they don't all take it for granted. Don't get me wrong, but it would be a

lot easier. Oh hell. I mean, in my first 10 years in the cup series, I'd, you know, I had no idea

what I had in my fingertips. Yeah. You know, it didn't, I didn't really understand exactly how

lucky I was till toward the back. Yeah. And I get that. And that's, that's, I feel like that's

my strength for someone is because I've wanted it for so long. I had to go so long without it.

And now I feel like, man, I have worked, I have worked every part of the sport. I have spotted,

I have owned the cars, I have crew chiefed, I have drove, driven, I have done the tires.

There's no part of the sport. I have built a suspension, I put bodies on. There's no part

of the sport I haven't done. So I think that's a big strength of mine. Like I know that these

people that are working on our cars and spending the time in these cars out there, the people that

make us look good on TV, like those people are what creates speed and opportunities for these

drivers to have success. And I feel like that, you know, I've tried to go above and beyond on

being, you know, being a part of the team and just working really hard on remembering everybody's

names and just because it's personal. You know, you don't want to just thank people. You want to

be personal with them. And I've made it a point to do that. And it's just, there's not many times

that you could find a driver with wisdom and a lot of experience that has a fire at my age.

Because at this point, they're all getting burned out. And I don't think like they're

talent level, like Denny Hamlin has done a tremendous job of not being burned out.

Staying in there. I know he's an anomaly. His talent is just as good or better than what it was

15 years ago. So that's what I drive to be great. Yeah, is as strong as it's ever been.

And I think that's my strength is I went so long without it. My fire now is just my opinion is,

you know, I mean, you had a conversation yesterday.

The what is next for Lee Pulliam? So nobody knows when when the next phone call might come,

if it might come. We have we can't sit here and plot a course or a path. We just, we can't, right?

And that's not that's not realistic for anybody. It took us 10 years to get Josh Berry into, you

know, into a ride in the Xfinity series. And Carson Quaple happened a little much, much quicker,

you know, just by chance and happenstance. But two very similar dudes that had two different,

completely different paths to get in there. You've had an opportunity to race our car and

J.R.M. is going to turn over stones and try to figure out opportunities to create more

chances to do that. I think that and I'm saying this publicly, which I've already told you,

I think that there are truck teams, there are rally teams that maybe have some inventory.

It's it's very slim, but there is some inventory out there of a race or two,

where I'd consider a guy like you. Just how the way that you have came into our building

and the impact that you've had on the people that you've connected with here and how great

of an experience it was for our team to go to the racetrack with you. They love the emotion.

They love the passion. They love how much it mattered to you and it energized them.

Yeah, you know, and I think you I think other teams would benefit, you know, from that same

experience. You've got to, you know, if you've got a, you know, one of the one of the top 15 or

top 20 truck or rally teams out there that needs a little shot in the arm in terms of culture or

some energy on the shop floor, that'd be a heck of an opportunity for them where not only are you

getting some out of it, I think you the team benefits from that experience as well. But I'm

hoping and I'm hoping that the the opportunities come. I really do. If they don't,

you have a long runway in front of you to do basically about anything you want. You would be

a valuable asset in any race shop in just about any role. Like if you truly, you know,

setting the racing aside for a minute, you're 37 years old, you know, you just told me, you know

the sport like the back of your hand, you know every role, you know how to manage people, you

know how to run a race team. Like there's not a role in a shop like ours or any old rally or

truck series team, maybe even cup teams. There's not a role in there that you wouldn't be able to

find yourself in and be comfortable. And so regardless of how many years you race,

I think that a future in this sport in some capacity, even beyond our cars tour and late

model stock ranks, I believe there's real potential there for you and huge value for whoever would

give you that opportunity. I'm going to, as your friend always encourage you, you know, to

to find opportunity and to seek opportunity. I know you probably enjoy where you live,

you enjoy your farm, you've worked hard to have those things and you can have them. You can have

them, you know, and a role in whatever part of, you know, the motorsports world you want. Make a

win. When you raced against Josh, you were a competitor. We admired you, we respected you,

but you were a guy we wanted to be. Josh told me that you were a good dude and that he respected

you. And though I assume those same feelings because of my trust in Josh and what he sees and

does out on the racetrack with you. And I'm thankful, you know, I didn't know that this

would happen. I wouldn't have, I couldn't have told you three years ago we'd be doing this, right?

But whatever it's, you know, that night at Martinsville, again, I don't know if you got

that opportunity if you win that race. Yeah. I really don't. My wife said it best the other night.

She was like, when we rode home from Martinsville that night, you were dejected and, you know,

disappointed. And he's like, look what door opened from from that. And she said the other

night when I was kicking myself for, you know, missing the shift and turning up cars because

I know how much money and time and ideas she knew that I was beating myself up that night.

And she was like, last September we rode home with the same feeling. She was like, you did

incredible today. Like you did with people didn't, a lot of people didn't realize what you could do.

And she was like, we've been here before. And she was like, just trust the process. That's right.

So she's been encouraging on that aspect of it and supportive. And that part means a lot because

for me, I've always been critical of my mistakes more so than what I did right. And I just

just always wanted to be perfect and do that. And it's a difficult, difficult sport to be that way.

But I feel like it's the only way that you get better. You've got to critique yourself and be

hard on yourself at times, but you also have got to move on from it and and be confident at the

next one that, hey, I'm gonna kill it today. And that's that's the part like you can have your

little feel sorry for yourself for a little bit, but it's time to roll on. I love that, man. I'm

an example of what it takes to dig ourselves out of some of them moments. Yeah, you got to have

somebody in the, you know, riding in the car with you to tell you to get your head out of your

ass, you know, that's right. And she's right. Like, you know, that that Martinsville race

opened a door. What happened this past weekend, we'll open a door. You don't know what's on the

side of it, but it's going to create opportunity. More people know who you are

than they did the week before. And you're a better race car driver, a better person

than you were a week before all those, you know, all through that experience, you're,

you're better off now today. And, and certainly there's some benefit and some things in your

future that are that are going to come from it. And we'll just have to wait and see what that is.

I know there's a lot of people that want to see you back on the racetrack and one of the top

three NASCAR series very soon. They'll be asking us all the time when we're going to put Lee back

in the car. I'm going to be here in that year. Oh yeah. When are you going to put Lee back in the

car? I know Folsom Fence Supply was a big supporter of what you did. Jerky Boys got an opportunity

to ride on board, you know, BRC. You got a lot of partners that have helped you create opportunity

like this that are still with you today and supporting everything you do. Yeah. No, those

guys are awesome. Carolina Drillin was on it and just, yeah, it was, it was a special deal. So

you brought them through the, you brought several of them through the shop. Man, it was great to

meet them. Great to hear their energy and excitement around racing, around you. Yeah. And

they're racers. They are racers. They're racers. So that was a lot of fun, man. It was a great

experience. It went as smooth as I could hope it could go. But what I really was thankful for,

so if I can be frank for a minute, I called Kelly up and LW and everybody and I said,

y'all, I want to do this. I want to run this race. I won't leave you to drive the car.

Nobody said, no, nobody said why. Everybody just said, all right, what you want to do? We'll figure

it out. Like I was waiting on the, well, tell us why or let me tell you all the reasons why we

shouldn't do that, right? I mean, there's all kinds of, you know, financial repercussions or

what have you, right? Nobody ever said anything. And one of my favorite things about it was

Phillip, our crew chief, your crew chief for the weekend. He enjoyed this more than he could have

imagined. And he speaks for Big Mike, all of, you know, you pick an employee out of that shop

right there, not just the guys that went to the racetrack with the nine car, even the guys on

the other team are probably looking over there going, damn, that's cool. I've got text messages

from people all over the motorsports spectrum, world outlaws, whatever you name it, telling me

how they didn't even know who Lee was. And man, they love what's what he's doing. They love what

he did. And so, you know, you came in here, great attitude, worked hard. Our guys enjoyed every

minute of it. And they loved having that opportunity to go the racetrack and be a part of that and

be a part of that team with you. So, dude, we'll see what's next. All right. Yeah, I appreciate

we're going to work hard and we'll be in your corner supporting anything and everything we can do.

It's been a pleasure, man. Where am I going to see you in Nashville in a couple of weeks?

Yeah, I am. You're going to send your race car to the cars tour without you?

I'll be I'll be there with Carson Brown. All right. Yeah, I'll be there. I'll be at South Boston

this weekend. You racing? No, we're kind of a little bit behind in the race shot right now. We

actually blew engine up last week, so we're I'll be catching up a little bit. I saw that. Yeah.

Well, I can't wait. I mean, I'll probably talk to you before the end, but I can't wait to go to

Nashville. Yeah, I hope you have a ball. Man, I hope so. Yeah, I need a good time behind the

wheel. Yeah, you put the pressure on whatever I can help you with. Yeah. All right, buddy.

We pull him on the Dell Junior Download.

Yeah, that was fun. I've I've I've not done a deep dive in the Lee's career, and that was so much

fun to get. We got to a point where it's like, you know, obnoxious how many races this guy was

winning every year. And I thought that was fun to drive home to the to the listener there,

who's probably like, you know, I know this guy was good and he got this shot to run no rally car

this weekend. But now you know, like this guy was out there winning an ungodly amount of races

year after year after year, just going to any track he wanted to and just dominating. They must have

been pretty disappointed and dejected when they would see Lee Pulliam pull into the motor mile

after racing at South Boston one year, and he shows up at the first race at motor mile and

they're like, damn, is he going to be here every week? But the dude, I mean, you don't go win

1520 races a year at the same racetrack, you know, year after year. But his he's one of those guys,

you know, we talk about butch Lynn Lee, he won 500 short track races or some Larry Phillips,

won an ungodly amount of short track races. Ralph Earnhardt won some 400 500 races in his time.

There's all these guys that in certain decades were just, you know, just winning everything.

And Lee was that guy for a little, you know, window of five to six years there.

He was a guy. And so if there's a list of names that should have gotten an opportunity

that never did, his name's got to be near the top. And, you know, I'm glad he got a chance

to drive the car this weekend. I'm glad he got a chance to say, Hey, man, I know what that experience

is like. I know what a weekend is like for these guys. I know what they go through. I know what

they feel. I know the emotions. I know the nerves. I know the anticipation, all those things, right?

He can only imagine before now he has a real understanding and he's probably got a real

appreciation for it. Haven't been on the sidelines all these years. And we'll see what happens going

forward. But he certainly deserves more opportunity. And it's one of them things where it's kind of

having, you know, a solid eight year runway where he could go somewhere and be a very

competitive, successful driver, at least at the truck or O'Reilly level for a team. So

just don't know how many opportunities there are out there for a guy that can't really bring

much funding because, you know, he's got some help, some support, but not the full season,

not the not the big ticket that a lot of teams, I mean, there's, you know,

I think we'd be fun one day to sit down and do a spreadsheet of truck O'Reilly

and go, Yep, what's the level of funding the driver is bringing to this operation? You know,

because it's more prevalent throughout the series than maybe we even realize, right? And Lee's not

a guy that it's going to be able to bring a giant amount of funding or a large sum of funding

to get himself that type of opportunity. But man, just fun to talk to him, fun to learn about his

career. And now I think hopefully people that didn't know Lee know him a whole lot better.

And you can follow, you know, he's going to be doing something as an owner, as a driver, you can,

you know, if you want to, you know, pull for Lee, you'll have these outlets and opportunities in

the next several years as he continues to compete. But that was a fun conversation.

Thank you, Lee, for joining us here in the Arby's studio. Don't forget about Arby's new

meat and three bucks. You get more meal for your money at Arby's. We have the meats. We'll see you

Thursday. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Instagram, Facebook, X and TikTok.

About this episode

Lee Pulliam’s journey from a farm near VIR to dominating late-model short tracks gets the spotlight, with Dale Jr. digging into the sacrifices, the grind, and the “never giving up” mindset that finally earned him a NASCAR opportunity at JRM. Pulliam recalls building a limited late model from scratch, winning early at South Boston and Motor Mile, and the loyalty that paid off with chassis help. He also shares the emotional highs and brutal setbacks of his K&N/Nationwide stint, his later shift to ownership, and how VR training helped him overcome motion sickness for the recent race.

AC Delco caution Chase Elliott crew chief Daytona diecast enough weight on my rear tires equipment not up to par Folsom Fence Supply lapping

Original notes

Dale Earnhardt Jr. sits down with late model stock standout Lee Pulliam on the heels of his O’Reilly Series debut at Martinsville. Growing up in Semora, North Carolina, on a farm, Lee’s family’s weekly trips to South Boston Speedway inspired him from an early age. As he aged through high school, he devoted his entire existence to figuring out how to get on the race track. Lee explains that he saved every dollar he could to purchase a race car, and that purchase came in the form of a limited late model that took over a year to get race-ready. He entered the ranks at South Boston, and before long, he carved out a career in the Mid-Atlantic that will be celebrated for decades to come.

Lee’s dominance at South Boston, Motor Mile, and other East Coast strongholds earned him four NASCAR Weekly National Championships. While he had a firm footing in the short track world, he only had one opportunity to rise to higher NASCAR ranks, which unfortunately folded after a series of bad luck. Lee returned to his grassroots and continued his winning ways until he made the difficult decision to step away from the driver's seat and concentrate on owner duties. After a triumphant return to the ValleyStar Credit Union 300 at Martinsville, which nearly saw him in victory lane, his emotional post-race reflection motivated Dale Jr. to find him a spot at JR Motorsports, leading to the veteran finally making his O’Reilly Series debut this past weekend.

Arby’s Meat & 3 box is available for a limited time at participating locations while supplies last. Prices may vary. Get your Meat & 3 box at an Arby's near you today.

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