The Porsche 936 is an older Porsche race car that competed in endurance racing. In this conversation it comes up because the host thinks someone accidentally said “936” when they meant “963.”
Audi is a car brand the host is talking about here because of how successful it’s been in racing. The host’s point is that Audi kept winning even when there wasn’t much competition.
Car
RS Spyder
The RS Spyder is a Porsche race car built for long-distance endurance races. It competed in a specific prototype class (LMP2), which determines the kind of car and performance rules teams have to follow.
LMP2 is a category for prototype race cars in endurance racing. It’s a defined ruleset that controls what teams can build so competition is more about racing and tuning than pure budget unlimited design.
Person
Johnny Von Newman
Johnny Von Neumann is mentioned as a person who helped shape Porsche’s early following on the West Coast. The host says an article claims he was especially important to the Porsche 356 Speedster.
WEC is short for the World Endurance Championship, a major series for long-distance race cars. The host is comparing how a car performs in WEC versus other racing contexts.
Car
Porsche 963
The Porsche 963 is a top-level race car Porsche built for long-distance endurance racing. It’s the kind of car that competes at events like Le Mans, where the whole goal is to go fast and last a long time.
Balance of performance (BoP) is a set of rules used in endurance racing to equalize performance between different cars and manufacturers. The host suggests some people think the Porsche 963 is disadvantaged by BoP compared with Ferrari, but he says he can’t judge the rules and technology deeply enough.
Derek Bell is a well-known race driver, especially famous for long-distance races like Le Mans. The host mentions him as someone he’s met and admires.
Person
Jackie X
The host is saying Jackie is his favorite driver because Jackie became a big symbol of Le Mans. He’s described as “Mr. Le Mans,” meaning he’s strongly tied to that race.
Formula One is the most famous kind of pro race car series, with open-wheel cars. The host is saying the driver was good there too, but their real strength was long-distance endurance racing.
Tom Christensen is a famous race driver, especially known for winning at Le Mans. In this conversation, he’s mentioned as the person who beat the record for Le Mans victories.
The FIA is the organization that makes the rules for a lot of major auto racing. The host is talking about how FIA politics and decisions influenced who benefited in different eras.
Group C was a specific class of endurance race cars used for a period of time. The host says when it was canceled, racing in the 1990s didn’t have a great replacement, so the racing quality suffered.
A livery is the car’s paint and sticker design—its exact look. The speaker is saying certain racing color schemes don’t translate well to normal street cars.
Color science is about how colors look to your eyes and how lighting and materials change their appearance. The speaker is saying the golf racing colors have a specific look for a reason.
Max Hoffman was a key Porsche dealer/importer in the U.S. In this story, he’s portrayed as pressuring Porsche to make a car that could be advertised for under a certain price.
The Porsche 356 Speedster is an early Porsche that became famous for its simple, open-top design. Here, the hosts connect it to Max Hoffman pushing Porsche to make a specific kind of car that could be sold for a certain price.
Homologation means building a limited number of street-legal cars so they’re allowed to race in certain competitions. In this story, Porsche did it because the rules demanded it.
The Porsche 917 is a famous race car that Porsche built for long-distance racing. People still talk about it because it was very successful and became a major part of Porsche’s racing history. The episode is also mentioning what happened to these cars after they finished racing.
A Porsche 911 RS is a race-oriented version of the 911. The point in this segment is that it was made for racing requirements and business needs, not because Porsche knew it would become famous decades later.
Group 3 was a category of race rules that determined what kinds of cars could compete. The host is saying Porsche had to build a certain number of cars to qualify for that category.
“Air-cooled” describes an engine cooling system that relies on airflow over the engine rather than a liquid coolant circuit. In the context of the 911, it highlights the classic Porsche approach used for decades, which is part of why the host frames the 911’s “ultimate” identity around its air-cooled era. This matters because regulatory and emissions challenges can push manufacturers toward different engineering solutions over time.
The Porsche 356 is an early Porsche model that’s important historically. In this discussion, it’s brought up to compare how long it stayed popular and how Porsche thought the 911 might not last as long. They also mention the 356 Speedster as a version people really recognized.
The Porsche 928 is a different kind of Porsche than the 911—more of a modern grand tourer. In this segment, it’s discussed as Porsche’s attempt to solve regulatory problems like noise and emissions that they worried the 911 couldn’t meet. The host also says Porsche expected the 911’s era to end and planned a replacement.
Emissions are the harmful gases a car puts into the air. Governments set limits on them, and carmakers have to engineer engines and exhaust systems to meet those limits. The host is saying Porsche worried the 911 might not be able to comply.
Here, “noise” means how loud the car is during official testing. Because the 911 has the engine and exhaust in the rear, the sound comes from one spot. If the test measures loudness with a microphone as the car drives by, that can make the 911 seem louder than a layout where the sound is spread out.
A “front engine car” has its engine in the front. In this discussion, that layout is contrasted with the 911, where the engine and exhaust are closer together at the back. The idea is that with a front engine, the noise sources are more spread out, which can reduce how concentrated the sound is during testing.
The Porsche 911 is Porsche’s most famous model line. The point here is that fans loved it so much that Porsche kept making it instead of replacing it with something else.
The regulatory environment means the government rules car makers have to follow. In this case, emissions rules are driving what Porsche can and can’t do with the engine.
Air-cooled engines get rid of heat using air flowing over the engine. The host’s point is that emissions rules made it harder to keep an air-cooled engine meeting modern requirements without losing performance.
Water-cooled engines use coolant (liquid) to carry heat away from the engine. The host’s claim is that emissions rules made water cooling the only practical way to keep performance up.
Person
Vita King
Vita King is the person the host credits with helping Porsche get through a tough time. The idea is that he pushed changes inside the company so Porsche could survive and then plan for growth.
“Strategic decisions” means big, long-term choices a company makes. In this context, it’s about how Porsche changed its approach to survive first, and then how it planned to grow.
The Porsche Cayenne is Porsche’s SUV, meaning it’s built for more space and everyday driving than a sports car. It came along when Porsche was trying to expand and sell more vehicles. The podcast is using it as an example of that growth strategy.
Concept
market for SUVs was seven times greater than the market for sports cars
The host is comparing how many people want SUVs versus sports cars. The point is that if one category is much bigger, a company trying to grow usually has to pay attention to where the customers are.
Gray market cars are vehicles imported and sold through channels that aren’t the manufacturer’s official U.S. distribution. Because they weren’t originally built to U.S. rules, they often require federalization to satisfy DOT and EPA requirements.
The Ferrari 288 GTO is a rare, very fast Ferrari made in limited numbers. The episode mentions it because early cars were delivered to a shop for work soon after they arrived. That helps show how uncommon and special the car was when it first appeared locally.
EPA is the U.S. agency that sets rules for vehicle emissions (how much pollution a car produces). They had to make the Ferrari meet those emissions rules to be legal in the U.S.
Interstate 84 is a big highway in the northeastern U.S. He’s using it to describe where the ride happened before crossing into New York.
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Okay, let's get to it.
Jay Gelotti, part five.
Alright, I feel like I have a lot of things to say in this one or some of the things that
we talk about are things that like I want to comment on.
But I know you tune in to listen to the people I'm interviewing not to hear me for the first too long blabbering about whatever.
But I am planning on like for like a filler episode being on here so we can banter back and forth like me and somebody.
I can't do Bill Patton because he's just out of touch with anything like about the time I was born.
He became unaware of a lot of the stuff in the Porsche world.
I've talked to the professor numerous times about this like he's been on board and so he would be someone that I have to banter back and forth with.
But I'm open to any of my friends that kind of know what they're talking about so we could have like filler episodes of us just like speaking on things in the Porsche world,
whether it's current events or things that bug us.
Alright, some of the things I can comment with this one is at one point he says 936 but we're talking about the 963.
So you know he means 963.
He's writing a book on a 936 that could come out any minute.
So I'm sure he's doing a lot of like talking to people promoting the book.
So 936 is probably on its mind.
He just switched the two numbers.
I mean it's easy to do 963936.
I mean he talks about how Jackie X record he didn't think was ever going to be broke and then he brought it up Tom Christensen.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Tom Christensen or Audi but the fact that they just kept racing and winning without much competition
and that was at a time where there wasn't that much enthusiasm going on.
I mean at times some of the biggest competition was the RS Spyder that was in the LMP2 category.
It's not like they had Ford in there, Ferrari in there, Porsche in there, like big names in there like hammering it out.
I feel like Audi was just kind of flying under the radar for years and years just winning every year when no one was really there to challenge them.
I mean it's nothing like the 80s or what's going on now or the 70s.
You always hear the name Max Hoffman first.
Max Hoffman, Hoffman.
But like the other guy that on the West Coast that was somewhat just as influential was Johnny Von Newman.
And so when I read an article that said Johnny Von Newman was actually more to be credited for the 356 Speedster.
I mean it makes sense.
I mean I'm sure Max Hoffman was like I just want a cheap car.
But when you really think about all that the 356 Speedster entails, it's definitely like a Southern California thing.
Young kids wanting to go racing with a cheap car or cheaper than the normal one that's already ready to go.
I mean that screams Southern California.
California in general.
It doesn't scream snow and rain like what was going on in New York.
I mean I guess it's not true, but I've always wanted to ask that question.
All right.
Jay Jalotti, part five.
Okay.
One of my questions was the 963.
So I kind of maybe we'll just jump into it now.
It's pretty dominant in some.
But WEC, it's just not so great.
And maybe I just don't understand all the rules with the WEC.
I don't know if they just have the advantage.
The hypercars have the advantage over the LM.
What are they, DH?
Well first of all to me, I mean the 963 has won a number of races in the WEC and won some championships.
But Le Mans overshadows everything.
So people might not remember who won the championship or who won this race, who won that race.
But a lot of people will remember who won the 24 hours of Le Mans.
And you know our friends at Ferrari are on a three game winning streak there.
And it's amazing.
I mean the 963 was last year, we were on the same lap as the winning Ferrari.
But in today's racing, there's still a huge gap between even being on the same lap at the end of the race can be potentially a huge gap.
And we talked earlier about balance of performance.
So some people are going to say, well the 963 is disadvantaged on balance of performance and that Ferrari has an advantage.
Well, I don't understand the technology and the rules in the level of depth to really say whether balance of performance is the reason we haven't won at Le Mans.
That's where my suspicion goes, but I'm not enough of an expert to say that.
Again, the diehard historians will look back at the 936 and say, hey, that was a really successful car.
But this is always going to be that big.
But it didn't do the one thing that all its predecessors basically did.
Who's your favorite driver?
Oh my God.
That's, you know, it's hard for me to say because I know some of them personally and it's hard to say, well, pick this one over that one because they're all the ones I've met in person are absolutely great guys and great to spend time with.
And I've been so lucky to spend time with these great drivers like Vic Alford and Derek Bell, Hurley, Ryan.
I guess I might say as a fan, I would have to say Jackie X, even though I've never met him in person.
I would have to say he's probably my favorite driver just because when I was a kid growing up, he was Mr. Le Mans.
And my focus was so much on Le Mans and he just has such a knack for endurance racing.
I mean, he was good in Formula One also, but he just had a knack for endurance racing and with six Le Mans wins, which, you know, I never thought anybody necessarily beat that record.
Of course, Tom Christensen eventually did beat that record by quite a bit, but I never thought anybody would beat that record.
So X, I suppose, was my favorite.
Some ways he still is.
So I'll go with Jackie X as my favorite.
I'll probably hear from all his co-drivers.
Like, why didn't you pick me?
Yeah.
We kind of already talked about this, but politics and racing that you dislike the most.
Well, we did talk about it and I think that the dynamic of the FIA and of course the FIA, I'm sure would in hindsight would deny this, but being a French based organization
and being perceived as favoring the French teams.
You know, I look back at it as a historian and kind of say, well, that doesn't seem right or that does that seems a little unfair.
So there's the politics that probably sticks out to me a little bit during this historical period that we're talking about of the 60s and the 70s in particular.
In more recent years, again, I haven't followed it close enough to really say, oh, there was a bad political decision that, you know, the FIA or somebody else made.
I can't think of any real recent examples of that.
I mean, the other one we could, I guess we could think about is the end of Group C.
So at the end of the 80s, early 90s, when they, when they canceled Group C, I think in some ways they shot themselves in the foot because in the 90s, then we didn't really have a good replacement for Group C.
And the racing was not that great in the 90s.
But on the other hand, you can see, you know, the way Porsche dominated Group C, maybe the, maybe the FIA felt that they needed to look for a different or better formula.
It's hard to say.
Okay.
What's your least favorite thing about racing?
Well, the danger of it, especially when I was younger.
That was clearly my least favorite thing.
I'll tell you a quick story.
The only Formula One race I've ever been to was 1982 at Montreal.
And my great hero, my great favorite driver in Formula One at the time was Gilles Villeneuve.
And he got killed the month before.
We were set to go to Canada to see the race.
And a month before the race, he goes and gets killed at Zolder in Belgium.
And then when we were there at Montreal in June of 82 for the Grand Prix, a young driver, young kind of unknown driver, Ricardo Palletti got killed.
Now, I didn't actually see it because the grandstand we were in was around the corner from the start line where the accident happened.
But we could see the smoke.
You know, I have pictures of the smoke rising up into the sky.
And I think even at that time, you know, we were losing a couple drivers a year.
And so that was, it was hard to reconcile as a fan that, you know, you love the sport and yet guys are losing their life.
That's always been hard.
And still to this day is somewhat difficult for me to reconcile.
It's, you know, because somehow you feel guilty about it.
Yeah.
What's your favorite livery?
Oh, I have to be, say golf.
I mean, I wrote the book, right?
So I love the golf colors.
There's color science behind the golf colors, which the guys didn't know about at the time.
That is really cool.
Obviously the Lamont film, again, made that deep groove in my psyche with the golf colors.
Interesting thing is I do not like the golf colors or really any racing liveries on street cars.
And I don't even like the golf blue on a street car.
It's just somehow on a street car doesn't look right to me.
But on a racing car, I'll take the golf livery all day long.
Was the 356 speedster Max Hoffman or Johnny von Neumann?
Oh, it's Max Hoffman for sure.
I don't think there's any real question about that.
He felt like he needed to, he needed a car.
I think he said this directly to Ferry Porsche.
I need a car that I can sell for less than $3,000.
So they came up with a car that they could advertise for $29.95 or whatever it was.
With a couple of mandatory options that kind of took the price a little over $3,000.
But he could advertise it under $3,000.
And to me, that's really the birth of the speedster.
So when you think about Porsche, some of their like magic cars that everybody was like,
that we look back on like the 356 speedster and then like the 73 RS, those were kind of done by accident.
Like Max Hoffman and like Porsche probably wouldn't have done it without Max Hoffman.
And then the 73 RS, they were just building cars for homologation purposes.
They weren't like, oh, let's build like the ultimate car that's going to blow people's mind 30, 40, 50 years from now.
Right. No, I mean, there's no way they could have known that any car they were building would become a legend.
I mean, think about what happened to my 917s after they were done racing.
A lot of them were pushed out behind the shed at BISOC, covered in tarps, you know, snow piled on top.
There was no sense that these cars were in any way become legendary, you know, valuable icons, right?
They were just doing what they needed to do to be ready for the next race or the next program or whatever.
So 911 RS, yeah, I don't think there was any sense that, hey, we're building the legend here, you know.
In fact, they were really scared that they wouldn't sell enough cars, right?
I think you had to build 400, right? I think you had to build 400 for whichever class that was.
Group 3, I think, whatever class it was.
You had to build 400 cars and they were a little worried that they wouldn't be able to sell 400.
And of course, they ended up selling 1200 plus.
So it was a surprise, runaway success for Porsche.
But yeah, there's no way they could have said, hey, you know, these cars will be considered the ultimate 911 or the ultimate air-cooled 911 or whatever.
Yeah, like, yeah, it's hard to like predict, but it just, it seems like they could have caught on a little.
To me, it seems like they could have read the room a little bit faster.
Now they're starting to realize like, but now that you have all these computers, it's hard to make cars lightweight.
Like with the 356, it kind of, people knew the speedster and then people kind of like, when they sold so many of the 73 RS, that should have been assigned.
And then they won races by being light nimble, like giant killers.
And then they decided to go the direction of a bigger car and they decided the 928's the direction they want to go seems a little bit crazy to me.
I can see why you would say that.
I think if you look at the history, it'll make more sense in the sense that where they thought the world was going from a regulatory point of view was really important in the development of the 928.
Because they were really concerned about the 911 not being able to pass emissions, safety standards and noise.
Noise was a huge concern with the 911 because in a 911, your exhaust and your engine are in the same place.
So all the noise is concentrated in one spot.
And so for countries that measured noise by driving the car past a microphone, all your noise is concentrated.
It's not spread out like it is with a front engine car where the engine is in the front and the exhaust is in the back and you're spreading the noise out.
So I think the 928 was a sincere effort to create a modern Porsche.
And they had no conception that the 356 lasted for about 15 years, give or take, right?
The 911, they could see the end of the 15 year run of the 911.
So logically in their mind, they were like, well, we did the 356 for 15 years.
We can't really expect a 911 to last more than 15 years as a product in the marketplace.
So we better do something for the modern world.
And so the 928 is what they came up with for the modern world.
And as I'm sure you know, 928 is a fantastic car.
But the Porsche people, the hardcore Porsche people just did not accept it as, they certainly didn't accept it as a replacement for their beloved 911.
And that's a large part of why the 911 is still here with us today.
It's because in the late 70s and the early 80s, the Porsche faithful, God bless them.
We're not going to give up our 911s.
We're going to keep buying them as long as you keep making them.
And the rest is history, right?
Yeah.
So, I mean, you hear, not a lot, but you hear people that are just, well, the 928 ended in about like 95.
And that's when Porsche decided to start turning the 911 into a 928.
Oh, they got bigger.
Oh, it became more of a grand touring car.
And I mean, I don't, I don't agree with that.
Yeah.
From an engineering point of view, I just don't think that holds water necessarily.
Again, it's, you have to look at the regulatory environment.
There's just, Porsche finally reached the end of the road with an air cooled car.
There's just no way where they saw things going with emissions particularly.
And of course, you have to balance emissions and performance.
So they probably could have built an air cooled engine that would pass emissions, but then it would have no performance.
So they had to go water cooled.
There's just no way to not do that.
And I think that the 996 was just a logical evolution in many ways.
And of course, they had to change their production methods and do a lot of other things and introduce a entry level car alongside the 996, which would share a lot of its components, financial and supply decision.
See, I don't think that there was any, I don't imagine any Porsche engineer was sitting there saying, well, we're going to make the 911 like, we're going to make it like a 928.
I just, I have a hard time, I'd have a hard time believing that.
If anything, I think they were happy to keep the 911 going because it's an engineer's car.
It's the kind of car that the engineers like to drive.
Yeah.
Um, Wendolin.
What is it?
What a king.
We do King.
Villain or hero.
Oh, well, here's another one that, you know, we could spend an hour on it.
I think he's, you know, I think he's 90% a hero because he drove the change at Porsche that was painful, but necessary.
You know, Porsche was on the verge of probably not going out of business, but was on the verge of having to sell itself, say to Mercedes, maybe, or to Volkswagen.
I suppose that could have been a possibility as well.
But in order to save itself, they had to change their entire method of doing everything, but especially building the cars.
And Vita King saw that and he implemented what needed to be implemented in order to save the company.
And then he and his team made strategic decisions.
Once this, once the company was stabilized, they made strategic decisions to figure out how, how do we grow our company?
So the Cayenne is an example of, you know, at the time, the market for SUVs was seven times greater than the market for sports cars.
If you want to grow your business, where should you look?
So, I mean, I was one of those people who resisted the idea of the Cayenne in a very foolish way.
I said all kinds of really dumb things about the Cayenne when it came out.
And as a marketing graduate, I should have known better because, yeah, you want to grow your business, you got to go where the business is.
And so, yeah, I give Vita King a lot of credit for virtually all the things he did where he ran aground or ran afoul was, you know, the scheme to try to take over Volkswagen.
And again, that's a super complicated two hours discussion.
But that's where he, you know, that's basically where he overreached maybe is the right way to say it.
But I think again, 90%, he's a hero for Porsche.
Um, most exciting card you have either driven or had access to when you're doing your books or research.
Um, I mean, what got you most excited?
What got, in your opinion, not what other people think like, what got you most excited?
Of something that I've actually driven.
Or just like if you're doing a story and you were actually near the car, like doing research, like had access to, like.
And I don't mean like at a car show, but like something that involved you.
Well, I've had the privilege to sit in two of my golf 917s.
So it's, it's really, it's pretty amazing to actually sit in one.
I can only imagine what it'd be like to drive one.
Nobody's going to let me drive their 917, of course, but I have been privileged to sit in two of them.
And they do have an aura about them.
I may be biased about this, but I think there's an aura that that car has that's different even compared to its sibling like the 908.
So that's, you know, that was certainly an exciting moment for me.
I had an exciting moment again in 1985, but this is not a Porsche.
This is a Ferrari because my summer job in 1985, I was the lot boy.
Little company called Amerispec in Danbury, Connecticut, Dick Fritz, who was an ex-Canadian employee.
He was doing federalization of gray market cars, including Ferraris.
And that summer we had the first two 288 GTOs in the country in the shop.
And they were trying to figure out how to do the DOT and EPA work to federalize that car for the U.S. market.
And the engineer, you know, the in-house engineer who was working on the EPA and the emissions one day says to me, hey, you want to go for a ride.
So, yeah, hopefully the statute of limitations has run out on it.
But there was a little back road that goes from Connecticut into New York alongside Interstate 84, pretty much an empty road.
And I think we went over the state line at about 140 miles an hour in the 288 GTO.
And I was like, I think it's still the fastest I've ever gone in any car.
So, yeah, that was pretty crazy.
And I love that car.
Being of Italian heritage, I do have a soft spot for Italian cars.
And the 288 GTO is one of my favorites.
So at least I got to ride in one at high speed.
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Goodbye for now.
We hope we can get together again for our next episode.
Now get out there and enjoy the cars and the people.
About this episode
The conversation starts with a quick correction on Porsche prototype numbering—“936” vs “963”—then zooms out to endurance racing: who Porsche had to beat, how BoP arguments get made, and why Le Mans memories can outlast championships. The hosts also dig into motorsport politics, including FIA influence and the fallout from “the end of Group C.” Later, Jay Gillotti shares personal history from the 1982 Canadian GP era and his 1985 work federalizing early Ferrari 288 GTOs, plus lively takes on Porsche 911 regulation-driven evolution and the 928.
Jay Gillotti has written very well know books such as Gulf 917 and Porsche Decades. This year a new book he is writing is coming out about the Porsche 936. He has also written articles for 000, Panorama, Forza, Vintage Motorsports, International Motor Racing Research Center, Collier AutoMedia and Wayne Carini's The Chase. He was also contributed to other automotive books like A French Kiss with Death, 1982 and Daring Drivers, Deadly Tracks. He has helped out at events like Pebble Beach Concours D'Elegance and moderated many Porsche Events people like Brian Redman, John Horsman, Vic Elford, Derek Bell, Hurley Haywood among others.
In this episode we talk about: -Favorite driver. -Politics in racing. -Least favorite thing about racing. -Favorite livery. -Most excited car he was involved with.