Jeff Gluck

This is off track.

Jeff, have you been friends with this guy for so long?

Man, one time, uh, I had a dead battery or a flat tire.

I think it was a dead battery. And he came

and rescued me on the way to Martinsville.

That'll do it. That doesn't sound like him.

That doesn't sound like him. Of

Course.

Uh, we're talking about Don Rohr, who is apparently naked off screen with dreams. He's,

He's not naked, but he is less clothed than I want him to be.

And it's funny, no one cares. Don.

What, what's funny is, uh, what I told him that you were coming on the show, Jeff, he got a little upset.

He's like, I've never been on the show.

And I was like, well, yes, Don, but he's a respected member of the racing community, so , I'm only saying all this stuff 'cause he can hear it.

Um, yes. Okay, guys, welcome to Off Track with Hinge

or Rossi this week.

Uh, Alex previously, uh, previously occupied was unable to join us, but we are joined, uh, as our, with our, our fire guest this week.

Uh, Mr. Jeff Gluck,

who we are very excited to welcome to the show, Jeff. Hello

And welcome.

Thank you. You know, um, producer Tim messaged me.

I was going back through the, the dms of X back when it was Twitter and 2018 he said, asked me if I could come on this show.

And I thought it must've been a mistake.

So I think I just left him on Red .

'cause I thought, why would you, most people want me to be on the show.

Yeah. To be fair, we ignore a lot of his dms too.

I, I, you know, just thought this must be, and then I ran into him at the Indy 500 this year, um, and he said, again, you know, I, I really actually meant that all those decades ago.

Would you like to come on?

And I was like, I, I, I mean, are you sure?

Like, I mean, this is a show where they break future F1 driver news.

Like it just goes right to this show.

So I'm like, I don't, okay.

If, if that's what you want me to follow up with, We kind of assumed you would have some news to break.

So do you got, oh, did you not have anything for us?

Tell us us. I mean, I, you, you are, I read

that you're on the, the NASCAR playoff Committee.

Is this, is this a thing? Is this true?

That is true and very shocking to me. .

Um, but how does, I found out after , after I was invited, I found out it's because they knew that I did not like the playoffs.

And I was so, such a jerk about the playoffs for so many years.

And they wanted, you know, a couple dissenting voices, right?

They're like, you know what? You know,

we need this guy who hates it.

We need, we need to have him come on. So

That's actually a great way to build a committee.

That's a, that's a very responsible way of doing it.

That's how I made it. Perfect. Perfect. For

B it wasn't, it wasn't like a, oh, Jeff, Jeff, we've gotta have this esteemed report.

It's like, we need somebody who freaking hates this .

So I wonder if there's any other committees any of us could get on with that? Oh, for

Sure. .

Yeah. I, I, that's actually now gonna be my go-to method.

I'm just gonna try to think of something I want to be on and then pretend to hate it and then get invited on.

Um, okay. So for those that don't know, Jeff,

why don't you give us a little bit of a, of a, of a backstory here.

I mean, obviously you're a, a very respected, accomplished motor sports journalist.

You write currently for the athletic, uh, the n New York Times. Um, so

Yeah, the New York Times owns the Athletic, right? Mm-hmm . Right?

Right. So, um, I guess explain

to people a little bit about kind of where your story began in motorsports journalism.

Were you always, uh, gonna be a writer?

Were you always into racing? Which came first?

Or was it fortuitous that you loved both?

Dude, it's really weird looking back now because, so one of my elementary school classmates was Justin Marks and No Way.

Um, yeah. And we would like, we weren't like super tight.

I knew who he was for sure.

And we like lost track over the years, um, until he got in the truck series.

But looking back now, I'm like, how did, how was he even into racing?

Because I grew up in the Bay Area, um, in, in California and you know, like where Rossi's from north of Sacramento, I think that's much more of a racing hotbed.

'cause you got like Larson from there, that area, and Brad Sweet from there and stuff like that.

But like, I don't think anybody ever talked about any sort of racing when I was growing up.

Any of my friends. I, you know, I just, I don't know.

So I don't know how Justin got into it.

Um, 'cause we were obviously in the same school, but, you know, but so I, I was always a stick and ball sports guy.

Um, but my first job was in North Carolina and the sports editor was like, Hey, I'm gonna send you to a Rockingham NASCAR race.

And I'm like, uh, I don't know, man. Like this is, yeah.

I was, you know, all the stereotypes and, but you know, I had been told by my journalism professors, you know, you, you always gotta just give things a chance.

You never know when you're gonna need to know how to write about lacrosse.

Like, know how to know as many sports as possible so that if the opportunity comes up, you know.

So I'm like, all right, you know what?

I'll go, I'll check it out.

So I went in with an open mind, and it was one of those things where, you know, you hear it from all people that go their first race all the time, right?

Cliques, you're like, oh, damn, this is fricking awesome.

This is cool. This is way better than I thought.

And of course, this was in oh four, so this was like peak nascar?

Yes. Like, this was like the top pretty much.

And so I just started going to whatever races I could in North Carolina and just, I'm like, I'm a, I'm gonna write a NASCAR column and cover NASCAR races.

I was mostly covering high school sports, but like in my spare time I was like, oh, I'm all about NASCAR now.

So it just, you know, it just parlay, you know, you move up the NASCAR media ladder, so, so to speak.

But it was weird 'cause I just, I always came in with this instead of being like the race fan growing up and knowing how I wanted to do it from that angle, I, I kind of came into it with like the more mainstream stick and ball sports fan angle, you know, and then, right.

That's how I've always sort of approached it, I think.

So was was, uh, was sports journalism.

So did you go to school for journalism?

You said journalism professor, so I assume that was part of your, your formal education.

I mean, it's, I know this is, is shocking considering my voice now and everybody can hear how, how horrible it is, but for a broadcaster.

But I wanted to be a baseball broadcaster at one point, which I'm so glad.

Okay. I mean, this is not a baseball broadcaster's voice.

This is actually a grading voice that nobody should hear. .

Um, and sorry to those that I have a podcast, but Hey, Tim, you say the same about Jim?

God, no, no, no, no. . ,

yeah. Um, but I had run into, I was looking

through the course catalog literally at school, and it was like sports writing was a class.

And I went to University of Delaware and it said that you could go to like Philadelphia Phillies games and Sixers games as part of the class.

And Oh, sweet. Do like your writing. And I was like, what?

That's a class. Are you kidding?

So I signed up for it and the guy was like, all right, yeah, bring me your writing samples so I can decide whether you can get in the class.

And I was like, uh, here's like an English essay I wrote about Shakespeare or something, I don't know.

And he is like, all right, all right, listen, I could tell you're enthusiastic, so I will let you in the class as long as you start writing for the school paper.

And you know, at the same time as I'm teaching you, like, you need to be on the job doing this.

And I was like, oh, okay, great.

And I think I just knew enough about sports that I just, I just started it, it became naturally, I think, but yeah, it was, I totally like just fell, fell into sports journalism kind of backwards.

What, what was your sport of choice?

I mean, you know, did you ever play any sports or was it just kind of you were the, the all round sports fan? Uh,

I, I really loved baseball for a long time.

Um, I liked baseball until I started getting hit by the baseball too much.

And then I decided it wasn't for me. Yeah. Um, I think I was

Kinda a, was I feel right.

Yeah. Plus I had really bad hand-eye coordination,

so it was just kind of better that, um, that wasn't, you know, I've, something I pursue, never played baseball at a high level, but I, I've heard that that's not, uh, not an insignificant part of the, the skillset required for an athlete in that, in that Game.

It doesn't help, I think when you're trying to swing and hit the ball that's coming toward you very fast.

And then you're also like, please don't let this hit me.

Right. It just wasn't for me. Yeah.

Yeah. That's fair. But that, that, yeah, you, that means

that you've got that, that gene in your mind, that your brain that you're born with, that tells you to not put yourself in situations where you're going to get hurt.

Something that I don't have, uh, obviously.

Um, alright, so you get your first job in North Carolina.

You get sent to this NASCAR race you fall in love with, with racing, and you take it upon yourself to kind of become a NASCAR guy.

I mean, it's, you're covering other sports, but your spare time, you're doing the NASCAR thing.

When does NASCAR kind of become, or motorsports kind of become the actual job for you?

So I was in California and I just decided at that point, um, at a, and I was, well, I was covering the Fontana track, you know, about that.

Yeah. Um, so I was, that was like my home track,

the newspaper right around there.

And I, at, at that point I was still doing high schools, but also like the, the motor sports writer out there.

And I was just, was just like, man, whatever it's gonna take to get to North Carolina to cover nascar, like I'm, I'm gonna do this.

And then there used to be a magazine called NASCAR Scene.

And, um, they, I, i, I don't know why actually, um, why they took a chance on me, but they did, um, hired me and oh seven and I've been on the NASCAR beat ever since.

So, um, I think they just were like, this guy seems like way too enthusiastic, way too energetic, and we've got a bunch of, you know, crotchety old men or something.

Maybe we could use this youthful exuberance.

I, I don't know if that's the reason, but they were like, yeah, come on out.

So, um, that, that's been me ever since.

So what, what was the, what was the kind of vibe of NASCAR Scene Magazine?

This is not something I ever I ever read, Dude.

It was like, at the, at the time they called it like the Bible of nascar.

Like okay. They would, it was a weekly magazine

and everybody in the garage read it.

And in fact, like, like literally you would see, they would deliver stacks at each hollerer, like on Friday morning of each race weekend.

And you would see the crew guys scamper out.

And like, when, when I'd go in for an interview into like the driver's lounge, you'd see the driver would be sitting there reading it, or the crew chief be sitting there reading it and like, you know, this was pre-internet.

Yeah. I'm not to say make my sound old,

but you know, I have the bald hair to show that I'm old.

Um, and it was know Pretty social media and smartphone and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So, you know, it was like, man, people would read, consume the, the sport about consume the sport this way, you know, before it was like widely more accessible, I guess, journalism wise.

So, um, it felt like what we were doing was, you know, important at least to the garage.

And we were just printing money because NASCAR was high flying at the time.

And we would, like, we were staying at these like $300 a night rooms, and like, they'd send five writers and we each had our own rental car, our own room, and they, we'd like, we'd cover Homestead and they'd be like, all right, we're gonna, this resort and Key Largo, we're all getting like waterfront rooms.

You're just like, what? This is amazing.

And then like within two years after like the economy started to take a dump, we, we, like, the size of the paper was like a third.

We, we went from like a hundred pages, like 30 pages.

All the print advertising stopped.

And then one day we got called into a room and they're like, yeah, we're gonna read a bunch of names, and if you're on this list, you're gone.

And I was on the list. So that was that.

It's so crazy to me, like how, how oh eight affected so many industries, but I feel like Motorsports was hit so hard just because it's fueled by, you know, frivolous marketing dollars, which is the first thing to go when a company hits hard times.

And then you just think of all the ancillary businesses and industries that kind of are affected, you know, that ripple effect outwards.

And I mean, look, I, it never, probably never really never really recovered, like print Meg a weekly print magazine for a race series.

I mean, like, what you're describing kind of sounds to me like what the Red Bulletin was in Formula One for a long time.

Um, maybe, maybe more an official and like actually, you know, reporting on things and not just Pat Gossip and stuff like that kind of thing was or mean Off Track is now.

Well, I mean, I'll show you, it's not even close to any of those things. ,

it's the most irrelevant bit of media that's ever happened.

Um, but like, did, did the, did the print did like the, I guess it's kind of Motorsports as a whole, but in NASCAR mean a bit more specifically, did the kind of the, the print industry for reporting on NASCAR ever really recover or get back to anything close to that kind of pre oh eight level?

No, I think that just, it just went off a cliff after that too, because, you know, because IPhones just came out at the same time.

And so people are now starting to kind of move that way. And

Well, and every, when I started, like every southern newspaper, I mean, like, even small newspapers had like a full-time NASCAR beat writer, you know what I mean?

And the media center was just packed and it was just all newspapers.

Um, and, you know, now there's no newspapers that covered NASCAR full-time.

Not even the Charlotte Observer, um, USA today. No.

You know, it's like, wow. It, it is so hard to believe.

Like, you know, I, I, again, I sound old, but like, I try to tell these younger kids, these journalists, like, oh, you wouldn't believe, you know, you come in the media center now and, you know, it's YouTubers and bloggers and a few journalists who are getting paid fulltime to be there.

But, um, a lot of the other people are there just 'cause it's, you know, they're hobbyists or it's fun, or they have a passion for the sport, or they're trying to get up the media, but there's not much.

Yeah. There's just not much left.

Like, yeah, there's maybe four or five of us or something.

I mean, something depressing.

But yeah, so like, it definitely never recovered.

And at, but at the same time, that went hand in hand with nascar, you know, going down to, so, you know, it was easy for a newspaper, the Atlanta Journal Constitution to be like, all right, well, NASCAR's not as big as it was, let's pull this guy and put him on the Atlanta Falcons.

Right. Um, but you know, at the same time,

all their resources were being drained too.

So it just, it was a, it was a perfect storm for, for journalism and, and racing. I think.

So. So your name gets called on that list.

What, what are you thinking and what end up, what ends up being the kind of next step?

Well, for sure, I thought my career was over.

Um, 'cause I was like, I even, even then you're like, dude, what?

I mean, what else can I do in, in nascar?

Like there's, there's only so many jobs.

Yeah. It must have looked bleak

and you probably thought, all right, other sports are still doing better.

Maybe I just gotta pivot back to Stick and Ball. I,

I was, yeah.

I mean, I, I called my parents on the way home who lived in Colorado, and I was just like, yeah, I think I'm gonna have to move back home.

Like, I, I just got like escorted outta the building.

NASCAR scene is no more.

They, they kept this website for a year before they cut that too.

And it was just like, all right, well crap.

But I mean, the good thing is I had just gotten on Twitter 'cause I was, I was like an early adopter of Twitter.

I thought that was pretty cool. So I had like kind

of gone all in on that.

And I had just enough of a following, which is like, I mean like literally like 3000 people at the time.

And that was enough for, have you ever heard of SP Nation?

Um, yeah. Yeah. It was, it's a sports blog site. Yeah.

They were starting up racing content and they're like, Hey, yeah, we're looking for a guy.

You Yeah. We, you could, you know,

full-time travel to races.

I'm like, okay. Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.

Did you ask if you doing to the same hotels? Really?

, dude, they gave me, I remember they're like, yeah, like you could do as many races as you want, but your travel budget's gonna be like 20 grand a year.

And I was like, Ooh, uh, . I mean, that's a lot of driving.

I mean, I could, I could do it, but that's gonna be, you know, even, you know, it was a lot of like, It's 36 races, right?

Like NASCAR's a long schedule.

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I, it was, you know,

I was sleeping on floors of friends' hotel rooms and driving places, Which I think Don Don played a part in at some point.

Oh dude, I stayed. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. He was

Taking credit.

I think that was when he Yeah, absolutely.

You, you, you go cash in favors whenever you can, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's, I mean it's, you know, we had, uh,

will Buxton on the show a couple months ago and kind of hearing his story, it's, it's similar, right?

Like when you are trying to kind of make that work and it's a passion.

I think he said he lived in a van, you know, and just drove to races and crashed in his van and, you know, lived off $10 a week for groceries or whatever, for eating out whatever.

Um, it's tough, but it's the ones that kind of hustle like that, that end up with these opportunities down the road.

Um, you, you mentioned the Twitter thing.

That was, that was on the list of things I want to talk about.

'cause that's, that's kind of where I first heard about you.

You were definitely a very big presence on Twitter as it was starting to become kind of a way that people were getting all sorts of news.

Now, um, was that, was that a, a kind of natural thing that you saw and were interested in and you just kind of started doing it and it was organic?

Or was it more like, Hey, I see this potential and I wanna be on the leading edge of this.

I just thought it was easy and a fun way to like, talk to your audience.

Um, I really think it was similar to the same way that you viewed the Hinch town kind of thing, because it was a way to, back then, especially like, it was such a organic, fun way to like, connect with the community that wasn't filled with trolls or too much negativity or Oh.

How things have changed.

Yeah. Right. I mean, you felt like you could have I stand

by all of my real conversation.

Uh, well, you're, I mean, It's now, it's, I don't even know some days why I'm on there.

Right. But like, it used to be like, you could,

it was enjoyable and fun and you got something out of it every day and you felt good about it, this community, right.

And yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It was a great, like, I wish there was a way now community wise to like just find sort of like your community on social media and not even, I, I don't care about my stuff getting retweeted or going up into the algorithm.

Like, I, it's, I just wanna talk to the people who wanna hear from me. You know? It's,

It's almost like, it's almost like the Twitter equivalent of a subreddit, right?

It's like, we're in this, we're in this Twitter thing.

It's like, okay, this is nascar, NASCARs, motor sports, nascar, people who don't suck.

Let's go into that group and everyone just talks to each other there, you know?

But I mean, I mean, you've, you've got like 300,000 followers on Twitter now, so it's obviously grown.

It's been a huge vehicle for you.

You were one of the first people to start doing Tweetups too, if I'm not mistaken.

Right? So you would have, you would kind of broadcast

to the, to the, your, your masses, Hey, I'm gonna be at this track on this day at this time.

Let's all get together. And,

and what, just talk shop, was it a q and a?

Like what, what was that all about?

Yeah, so it, it, the first one I did was Atlanta, um, oh nine Labor Day weekend.

And it, like, I had started to have people email me, um, and be like, Hey, um, I follow you.

I'd love to meet up and say hi. And so I was doing that.

Like, I would say, okay, I'll meet you over here.

I'll meet you over here. Right.

Um, and it, it got to be too much.

Like, I was just like, oh crap. Like I'm

Gonna, you got a job to do, so let's, let's condense all this, streamline this a bit.

Exactly. So I just, I had seen, NASA

had used the term tweet up, and so I just said, let's do a tweet up.

Um, and I'll just say this time at this place at the track.

And, uh, the first one had three people, and then I did another one at Richmond.

The, the week after it had two people.

And that one was, you know, it was like, Hey, like we met under this post under the stands, and it was like two dudes and me.

And it was like this weird kind of blind date thing.

Like we're all standing there like, are you here for this?

Is it me you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sounds

Like a really efficient way to get stabbed . Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Then they just started just growing and like organically people were just like, oh, okay, this could, you know, it was like 10 people, 20 people.

And then drivers started coming and it was like, uh, you came to one at Miami one year, I think, uh, at Homestead.

Yeah. Um, and, you know, it was just like, I don't know,

it just, it, it was a way to just, you know, especially at that time and, and still to this day, you, you, there's certain people, even with the following that you have, there's certain positive people that you see in your mentions enough.

You're like, I, I kind of know that guy's name. Yeah.

Like, yeah, I've seen that name enough.

Um, that's, that's not a troll. Like, that's a cool person.

And then they'll come up to you and they'll be like, Hey, I'm so and so, and you're like, oh my gosh.

Yeah, you, yeah, yeah.

You know, so it's, it's a cool way to just connect with people and, um, I'm still trying to hang onto that even though it's, it's gotten a lot harder.

So you still do them, but not as Often?

No, we, we still do 'em. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, I'm, you know, like if I'm not there, Bob ERs will do one.

Yeah. If we're both there, we'll, we're,

we'll coordinate on, we're gonna do it together.

Um, you know, it's, to me it's, um, it's honestly still the, my, the my favorite part of the whole race weekend, because you're truly, you know, we can think, okay, the NASCAR fans think this or whatever, but like, you're like, so what do you guys think of this rule?

Or like, what do you guys think of NASCAR going here to this track?

Or, and they just tell you, or you know, it's like, you're like, oh, okay.

And so it's obviously anecdotal 'cause it's, you know, 50, 60 people or whatever it is.

It's not representative of everybody, but it's a chance for, instead of us assuming that we know I'm, I'm standing on this pedestal and I know what's best and I'm gonna just tell my, like, they're saying, Hey, this is what moves the needle for me.

I don't care about this. And you know, a lot

of times you're like, oh, really?

I didn't think about that. So it's,

to me, it's really helpful still Just to make sure that they know their placed.

Do you introduce yourself as Jeff Gluck member of the NASCAR playoff committee? ?

Is that make sure cards . It doesn't have a number.

That was really, it's just that, um, that was a really weird, awkward thing for me to, 'cause I, they told us we could out ourselves, um, but we weren't allowed to say, you know, who else was on it.

And so I, and, and they said, please don't use your platform, uh, to stump for changes one way or the other.

That was the rules. And so it was like, okay.

So I, I waited until Brickyard 400 to say that I was on it, because I just thought, you know, I, I don't want to come across as like nothing had come out of it yet.

People hadn't been talking about it yet.

And I, I didn't wanna put myself in a weird spot of being like, Hey, look at me like I'm doing this.

Once it started to come out that there was a committee and discussions were happening, and, and then I was like, all right, well, I have to talk about this on the podcast and I can't talk about it without, in good faith saying, Hey, by the way, I'm on this.

Because if I, if I hit it, then later it would come out.

Wait a minute. Yeah.

He was on it and he talked about it, and like, he didn't like, so I had to be honest with the audience.

So that was a really tricky, weird thing to navigate.

And journalistically, it's still been weird, but I obviously, I had to clear with my boss beforehand, and we just agreed that like, as long as I'm transparent about what I've said in the room and not trying to sway things too much, but like being more of like a, you know, like stuff's come up in the room and I'll say, Hey, by the way, like, here's a little fact check on that.

You know, rather than you're a bunch, you know, if you don't do this, if, you know, I I don't think that's my place.

I mean, so it is been weird, but, um, I also thought passing up the opportunity to see how it actually, how they reached their decision would be a mistake.

'cause I, I'm gonna be able to say for years to come, like, well, you know, people say, why didn't they just do this?

And I'll be saying, right, okay, that came up.

I'll tell you why. And the reason is Yeah. Yeah. So

No, that's, that's, I think it's a huge opportunity.

It's a great thing to be a part of.

And I love, like, like I said, I love the fact that they kind of went for a few dissenting voices on that, on that committee.

So let me ask you this then.

Um, and we won't keep you much longer.

I appreciate your time. But the, the playoff thing,

you know, in IndyCar this year, we had one guy kind of, you know, ruin everything for everyone forever by winning a bunch of races and wrapping up the title with two races to go.

Uh, I remember when NASCAR went to this system, and correct me if I'm wrong, but did it not have something to do with the fact that like Ken if won one race and won the championship, but like Ryan Neuman won like eight mm-hmm .

And didn't because he crashed a bunch.

And like, well that doesn't seem fair, so let's recreate a way that it is.

Okay. So it was almost the reverse problem

that we've had an IndyCar this year, but it has sparked debate and people asking questions, which is insane.

Like in 25 years, the championship has been wrapped up before the last round like three times.

But because this is, you know, the sky is falling.

So explain to people what you don't like about NASCAR having playoffs, and then hopefully everybody in IndyCar is listening and can stop suggesting it , because I agree. Yeah.

I'll tell you what, if, if anybody in IndyCar thinks playoffs are the solution, I could tell you that a large percentage of NASCAR fans looked at your last race and looked at the viewership and which was great and held it up as like, Hey, by the way, the season and the races can still be relevant even separate from the championship.

I, I don't know if people have missed this, but race fans like to watch racing. We

Really like cars going around in circles. .

Yeah. You know, it's, everybody gets

so caught up in the championship.

The championship. That's not what it's all about.

And I think too, like there's a lot of people that it, like, why, why can't we just celebrate?

Like, all right, this guy an amazing season.

Um, man, he absolutely deserved it. He won it.

Imagine if you guys had a playoff and Paolo had the season he had, and then he gets tripped up at the last race for whatever reason and he doesn't win it.

And you're like, okay, this is, this was not at all reflective of what we just watched the entire year.

Like, and I get that the, you know, the, the argument for it is, well, you know, you could go undefeated in the NFL and you could lose the Super Bowl.

Okay, that's one team against one team.

This is every team on the field at the same time.

And, you know, the Kansas City Chiefs could be running down the field, Mahomes could be running down the field for the game-winning score, and a player on the Carolina Panthers falls and he trips over the guy and he gets tackled and they lose because some guy had nothing to do with it.

Like, it's just Right. So antithetical to motor sports

and how greatness in motorsports is determined, um, I just think it's been, it's, it's watered things down.

The drivers don't think it's as legitimate.

And so because they don't think it's as legitimate, they can't then in turn be passionate about it and sell it to the fans and get as excited about it.

So the fans are like, yeah, I mean, my driver doesn't even really care that much.

He, well, from what he's saying, like, you know, yeah, he's, it's like, yeah, if I win the championship, maybe, but it's kind of a roll the dice.

That's not you. You wanna see greatness.

And sometimes it's boring, sometimes somebody just dominates.

But a lot of times when it, when it gets it right, it's the most magical thing ever.

Look at F1 2021.

So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's just, I I think NASCAR is too far down the road now to totally unwind it because TV has such a big voice, right?

That they want elimination still.

You know, they, they want some sort of playoffs, but it's gonna end up getting at a place where it's at least not one race, which, okay, I guess it's something I, I'd rather go back to at least like the 10 race deal or whatever the bigger sample size is, that's, you're gonna get closer to determining a true champion. Um, because

Even, like if, if you look outside of, uh, sorry to interrupt.

Like if you look outside of football, 'cause it's a bit of a unique single elimination, you know, winner take all sort of scenario.

A lot of other sports, it's a best of seven.

So at least there's opportunity for you to have a bad day, but not lose out on a, a year's worth of hard work.

Right. So if it did go to a more expanded thing

that wasn't just one that that would, that that's at least a step in the right direction.

Yeah. I mean there's talk right now of like four races.

Um, okay.

I mean, I, I, I don't, I personally don't love that.

Like, I would rather it be at least five, six, like I said, 10 or, and, and again, they would never do this now, but I, I've really come around to like the 36 race championship.

I mean, now NASCAR is like IndyCar spec cars now you can't build your way into some massive advantage.

And so the odds of somebody truly running away with it, um, are not that high.

Like, if you look at the traditional season long points for NASCAR right now, it's really close.

So I, I feel like we're sort of robbing ourselves of some generational battles by trying to gimmick things up.

And oh, is is Denny Hamlin after winning five races, is he going to have a blown tire and miss the second round?

Like, find out. But like, why, why do we wanna see that?

Yeah. Like why are we rooting for that? Because it's chaos.

Like, wouldn't we rather see the best have a chance to do their thing and prove their greatness?

That's, that's where I come from.

It's a little too wwe, you know, the way it's when you try to hype up that kind of thing.

So I get I'm with you.

I, um, I've never been a huge fan of it.

It, and especially as, as things started getting so weird around, um, around elimination races like the Chastain thing, I may have been the only guy on earth.

I thought that was the dumbest thing on earth and it was so dangerous.

And I did not celebrate that.

I mean, guys got balls to try it, but I, I did not, as a driver, I did not celebrate that.

I thought that was ridiculous.

You look at people just dumping people at, you know, the Charlotte Ro or whatever, because you can, and it's, you have to like, you're, you're, you're not doing your job if you don't.

And you're just creating these terrible situations that aren't racing.

So I, I'm with you. I hope something changes.

Um, I I know we've gotta let you go.

I don't wanna take up too much time.

I have two more questions.

Um, the first is, we kind of touched on it earlier, uh, with the uptick in sort of the, the, what's the politest way to put this?

The, um, less constructive criticism on Twitter and things like that, you know, with, with the internet kind of going the way it is and so much of your work now, you know, it's just out on the internet, it's available for people to comment on and, and all that.

I mean, how do you kind of balance that as a writer?

Do you, do you read comments?

Do you respond, do you interact, engage with the crazies on Twitter?

Or do you just sort of do your job as long as your boss is happy and you're getting a paycheck, the the public can say what they want and you step back?

What's sort of your your take on it?

Yeah, unfortunately I still read almost all the replies, if not all of 'em.

And I really shouldn't.

'cause I think what's happened is, and I, I bet you've gone through something similar on a, a much bigger scale, but like, so for a while it was just the people following me who wanted to follow me.

Right? Then, um, I started doing my podcast

with Dirty Mo Media, Dale Junior's, um, media company and which has been great and for exposure and, um, my podcast, you know, it's really helped.

But as part of that, they are putting me now in front of a different audience that they're like, who the hell is this guy?

So for you, you know, you know, you had your following with IndyCar, all of a sudden you go on the F1 stuff and people were like familiar.

Oh yeah, okay. And you know,

this guy's coming from North America and IndyCar background and I'm sure that no, you're very likable, so you don't have as much of a problem with as I do not being as likable.

But, you know, people are suddenly, suddenly commenting, you're, you're in front of people and they're suddenly commenting on all this stuff and you're like, whoa.

Like they don't know your backstory.

They don't know any of your history.

They don't know how you like to, uh, you know, engage with the community.

They're just freaking mad or they're like, zero to a hundred with just shredding you or whatever.

And that's been a huge adjustment for me.

'cause I'm like, whoa.

Like I thought we were all cool here on the internet.

Like I know the internet is kind of crazy, but I thought I had a, my kind of arms around how this went.

And now people are like, freaking hate me.

Some people, right? Like, shut up. Like, we hate this guy.

So it's like, oh, like how do I, how do I deal with this?

And I, I do, I still read all of it and you know, sometimes I'll like mute people.

I block people who make racist comments and stuff.

Certainly. But like, you know, every time you block somebody

who give somebody content, 'cause then they screenshot it.

Yeah. And they say what a, what a softie. Yeah. Yeah.

So you're like, man, I don't know how to live on the internet anymore.

Honestly. Like, I, I don't, sometimes I'm like,

I just, I can't do much more of this.

And then of course I'm right back on there.

Ooh, what are people saying? Um,

I'm still trying to navigate it.

I really don't have a great answer.

'cause I, I haven't figured out the balance anymore because it just, it keeps getting more toxic and worse.

And just when you think it's gotten as low as it can go, somebody doxed my home address.

'cause they were mad at me. And I'm like, oh yeah.

I was like, Ooh, I got a, uh, two little girls here in this house.

I don't, I don't love that. Oh

Wow.

It's like, wow, okay. That's

Crazy.

Yeah. But I, so I don't, I don't know how

to navigate it. I really don't.

Yeah. It's just, it's such a tough thing.

'cause you know, you don't, especially when you started in this profession, that was not a concern.

Right? And so it's not like a oh, well, you know,

you signed up for like no, I, I didn't actually sign up for that.

That's not the world i I signed up for at all.

And as your audience grows, the, the, yeah.

The, um, availability of, of everybody to see what you're doing and, and comment on it positively or negatively grows with it.

And that's, uh, that's a tough thing.

But I was just, yeah, I'm always curious how people in, in media, like I, I, I get it from the athlete side and now I have been on the other side and like you, you know, I had my little world in IndyCar and that was great.

And then you go to F1 where they don't know you and it's a massive audience and a very polarized audience.

They all have their people and their cultures and their places and, you know, and yeah, man, they could be, they could be pretty rough.

They could be pretty rough.

But it's just, you know, I try to just avoid it because I don't care.

My my philosophy is always, you know, as long as the boss is out, I have an audience of one.

It's my boss. My boss likes the job that I'm doing,

then like, people can have their opinions, but I don't need to hear 'em.

Right. I'll, I love constructive feedback from people

that I work with and people that I work for.

Outside of that, it doesn't really, you know, it doesn't really benefit me the good stuff or the bad stuff, right?

Because people who don't know what they're talking about will say that I'm great.

And like that doesn't mean anymore than the people that don't know what they're talking about and say that I suck.

So I try and just avoid it for what it's worth.

Um, and then, okay, finally, I'll leave you on this.

I know we've already kept you too long.

I'm so, so appreciative your time. No, I'm,

I'm, I'm enjoying this.

No, don't, don't be rush at all. Thank you. Um,

So we, you know, I wanted to ask some of these kind of the journalistic questions and, and how you deal with some of these things and how you sort of grew it, because we do get a lot of people, I get a lot of people coming up to me being like, Hey man, as Motorsports has grown, the interest in all positions in Motorsports has grown.

And I have seen this massive, you know, uh, increase in people who want to get into the media side of motorsports.

And I get a lot of young people coming up to me being like, Hey man, you know, I I would love to get into this.

Uh, you know, what, what's your advice?

And I always say, I was like, I'm the worst guy to ask.

My advice is go race IndyCar for 11 years, retire, and then they'll give you a job in tv.

Like, I don't know the answer to your question.

So for someone that doesn't have that as an option, uh, what advice can you give to, to young journalists, reporters, writers, anybody that wants to get into, um, I'll, I'll say kind of sports journalism.

'cause that was, you know, your broader, uh, broader background.

And I think based on something that Kevin Lee always says when he gives this answer, it's, it's good to not pigeonhole yourself into one sport right off the bat.

So if you want to get into motor sports, start in any sport and go from there.

But what, uh, what kind of advice do you have for anyone that's, that's looking to get into, to motorsports journalism?

Well, first of all, I mean, this is the greatest time in human history to try to do something like that because you don't have to rely on, you don't have to wait for some major outlet. There's

No barrier, right?

There's no barrier to entry. Yeah.

Right. Absolutely.

I mean, we can, you know, anybody can make your own podcast, YouTube channel, whatever, and how you stand out, you know, it's obviously a crowded marketplace, but I, I do believe it's possible.

Um, because if you have a unique voice, you will end up standing out.

Don't try to do what other people are doing.

Don't just try to say, okay, well this guy does it this way, or, I really like how this person does this.

Like, find your own niche, find your own voice.

Um, and, and hey, that's, that's a niche within a niche sometimes, right?

Like, 'cause in, I, I notice like a lot of the NASCAR people who started breakthrough in recent years, like it might be like a stats guy and they're doing something that nobody else is doing.

And so they sort of own this space and people are going to them for like, oh, well, they, they have this whole spreadsheet and list of all this crazy stuff that's happened, and they're the only ones who's been keeping track of this.

And so you end up following them or go to them for stuff.

Um, and it just, whether it's talking about the sport or, um, you know, or you know, filming yourself, talking about it, whatever it is.

Like, I, I, I know people are polarized about Mr.

Beast, so I don't mean to bring 'em into the show, but, um, Mr.

Beast had a, a great interview I saw with somebody once where he was talking about, you know, everybody's trying to be the cow.

And if you're going down the, the road, you're seeing a bunch of cows and, and you can't tell one cow from the other.

But if you're going down the road and you see a purple cow, you're gonna be like, holy crap, you gotta see that purple cow.

Like, you gotta stop and like, pay attention to this.

And, and so when you're creating content, he was saying, be the purple cow.

Like, be that person that you're like, dang, that's really cool.

Like, I really like what they're doing.

Or that's really different or unique.

Um, because I do think you can stand out.

Like you, you, you'll see it in, in IndyCar.

Like there's, there's people that come in and they sound the same as anybody else.

And then there's some people that just kind of stand out and you're like, dang, they have a totally different perspective.

Or, I kind of like what they're saying, or that's, they have a great sense of history or whatever it is, and you end up, you know, you seeing their stuff more and more, and then they kind of get enough of a following and it, it snowballs over time.

Um, and it, you know, you have to be patient.

You have to outlast a lot of people, but I, I do think it's possible 'cause you're not doing it, you're not gonna get rich on day one doing this, right.

Like, you right, you're, you're gonna start it, it's gonna be a labor of love and you're maybe gonna have a dozen people watching your YouTube channel or whatever.

But I, I believe it's very possible.

We have a guy in nascar, Eric Estep, he built his YouTube channel from nothing with no help, was totally independent.

He has 250,000 subscribers now.

So, you know, it's possible to, thanks to the algorithms, uh, if you get enough traction on stuff, um, and he's not a shock artist or anything like that.

He has reasonable measured takes about what's going on in the sport and talks about the news, and people are like, Hey, I like this guy.

Let's check him out. So I think it's absolutely doable,

and if you have a passion for it, um, and an energy for it, um, go for it. You know, love that,

Love that I, and I love the point of you gotta outlast people.

That's kinda any job worth doing, a lot of people want to do.

And so you've just gotta be the one that's still there and keeps grinding.

And when those opportunities come up, you're there to, you're there to strike on it.

So I think that's, I think it's Awesome.

Yes. Because people realize it's hard, you know?

Right, right. Like people, you start doing it

and you go, oh, this is actually kind of hard.

Yeah. Um, and so a lot of people quit,

but if you keep going, like you're talking about whatever, it's, if it's trying to find a ride or whatever it is, a lot of people fall by the wayside.

And when you're there to get those opportunities, because you've been around and you've met enough people, and people are like, why don't we get this guy a chance?

Well, how come we've never, you know what I mean?

It's, it, it can happen that way for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Always

Heard.

Most overnight success stories take 10 years, Right, .

Exactly. Exactly right. That's true.

Well, hey, man, that's, uh, that's amazing.

Thank you so much for the time.

I've really enjoyed the chat.

Uh, tell everybody where they can follow you.

So maybe if anyone who listens, they probably already do listen, doesn't already.

Yeah, I know. I was gonna say, you're not gonna see a big

uptick in followers, but just let the people know.

Sure. Well, as, as mentioned, I am on X to my detriment,

uh, Jeff underscore Gluck, um, send me a dm, whatever.

Unfortunately, I read almost all of those too. , so, um, .

Yeah. Uh, and then I write for the Athletic,

and my podcast is called The Tear Down.

And every after every NASCAR race that night, about an hour or two after the race, we, uh, we talk about the race and give our instant reaction to it.

So sometimes we are totally talking out of our butt, but, um, actually most times probably, but, um, , every once in a while we sort of like, we are like, oh, we might, we might have made a good point there.

We don't, we don't know. So. Awesome.

Awesome. Check us out. Yeah,

check 'em out on everything, guys.

Uh, and again, Jeff, thanks so much for coming on.

Really appreciate it. This has been off

track with Hinch and Rossi.

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