The Dale Jr. Download Apr 8, 2026

Johnny Benson on his time at Roush, Mentoring Carson Hocevar, & Concussions

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NASCAR

NASCAR is a big American racing league where drivers race stock cars. The episode mentions different “levels” of NASCAR, which is how they describe where a driver competes.

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building chassis

A chassis is the main frame of the race car. Building it means making the car’s foundation so the suspension and steering can work correctly.

Concept

A “dirt car” is a race car designed for dirt-track racing, typically with suspension and tire setups that can handle loose, shifting surfaces. The driving style and car behavior are different from asphalt racing because traction changes constantly.

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building a chassis

A chassis is the car’s main frame. Building one means working on the structure and how the suspension mounts, which affects how the car handles on track.

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touring series

A touring series means the competition visits many different tracks on a schedule, rather than being based at one region. That affects logistics, car setup work, and how drivers adapt quickly to new surfaces and layouts.

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tiebreaker

A tiebreaker is what you use when two people end up tied in the standings. The series has rules to decide who ranks higher.

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Mark Martin

Mark Martin is a famous NASCAR driver. The speaker is saying that when big-name drivers were racing in ASA, it made the series more popular and more competitive.

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Dick Trickle

Dick Trickle was a well-known race driver. The speaker is saying drivers like him helped make ASA a bigger deal by bringing more attention to the series.

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pit stop

A pit stop is when a race car enters the pit area to receive service during a race—commonly tire changes, refueling, and adjustments. In this story, the team used the speaker’s car as a pit-stop-style attraction for fans, which is a common way to show the racing environment up close.

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Darlington

Darlington is a well-known NASCAR race track. It’s the kind of place where racing people often cross paths.

Brand

Chevrolet

Chevrolet is a car brand. In racing, teams that run Chevrolets often get manufacturer support like parts and help with setup.

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cup series

The Cup Series is NASCAR’s main top-tier racing series. Getting into it is a big deal because the competition is tougher and the teams are more advanced.

Term

inch and a half bond on the quarter panels

That sounds like they were modifying the car’s outer body panels using filler or composite material. In racing, teams sometimes reshape bodywork to fit rules better or improve how the car behaves.

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B team

A “B team” is like a second squad under the same racing umbrella. It’s often a step below the top team, and it can be a place for drivers to build experience before moving up.

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crew chief

The crew chief is basically the team’s lead strategist. They decide how the car should be set up and call key moments during the race, like when to pit.

Company

Doug Hewitt

Doug Hewitt is being praised as a top team leader for race strategy. In racing, that role can make a big difference in how well the car performs.

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lap times

Lap time is how long it takes to do one full lap. If someone is a fraction of a second faster, it usually means the car is working better or the driver is finding a better line.

Term

sponsorship

In NASCAR, sponsorship is when a company pays to put its name on the car and help fund the team. If you don’t have sponsorship, it can be harder to afford the best setup and support.

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Daytona 500

The Daytona 500 is NASCAR’s biggest race. It’s run at Daytona and it’s famous for being fast and strategic—small decisions can totally change who wins.

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short track racing

They’re talking about short-track racing, which is usually on smaller oval tracks. People who come from that world often know how to set up a car for tight turns and lots of racing action.

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$40,000 fine

They were hit with a big penalty—$40,000. That kind of fine can hurt a team’s budget and affect whether they can keep racing right away.

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short tracks

Short tracks are smaller race tracks where the cars have to turn and brake a lot. The racing is usually tighter and more intense, so drivers often enjoy them more than the big, high-speed tracks.

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wheel banging

“Wheel banging” means cars hitting each other’s wheels during a race. If there’s no wheel banging, it usually means drivers are racing more cleanly and carefully.

Term

tenths faster

In racing, speed is often measured in fractions of a second. “Three or four tenths faster” means they’re quicker by a noticeable amount lap after lap.

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truck races

In NASCAR, there’s also a series where teams race pickup-truck-shaped race cars. It’s a big stepping-stone series for drivers.

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back racing full time

“Full time” means they’re racing most or all of the season, not just a few events. That matters because it helps the driver and team build results and keep sponsor support.

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retirement on March the 6th, 2026

They’re talking about when he plans to stop racing. He mentions announcing retirement on March 6, 2026.

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mentored some drivers

Mentoring drivers means helping them get better at racing. A mentor gives advice on how to drive and how to make good decisions during races.

Term

concussion

A concussion is a brain injury that happens after a hit to the head. It can make you feel “off,” and it can affect memory and thinking for days or longer.

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under caution

“Under caution” means the race is slowed down because of a hazard on track (like debris or an incident). Drivers must follow pace rules, which changes tire temperatures, braking points, and how the car feels. It can also affect concentration because the rhythm of racing is interrupted.

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MRI

An MRI is a scan that uses magnets to take detailed pictures inside your body. Doctors may use it if symptoms are concerning, to check for problems other than a concussion.

LIVE

The following is a production of Dirty Moe Media.

You're Dale Jr.

Should I say it?

It's Dale Jr. podcast.

I got to say it.

Everybody's Dale Jr.

back again for another episode of the Dale Jr.

download our guest segment today presented to you by Arby's and their new

Meetin' Three Box. Get more meal for your money at Arby's.

We have the meats.

We also have a great guest for you today, Johnny Benson's coming on the show.

Johnny is raced in the NASCAR at the truck level, the rally or the bush level.

At the cup level, he's raced short tracks his entire life.

I learned a lot in in preparing for this and reading through our notes.

Bobby Marcos and the team put together a great sort of scope of his of his life and career.

One thing that's interesting for me is that his dad was a very successful racer.

I want to talk about that because I learned a lot about his dad reading books and

and then Johnny, his career path was

you know, kind of accelerated, clunky, start, stop.

How he got into the rally or the bush series and was really successful and yanked

out of there in the cup series and that struggled for a while.

And he never really landed into a great situation until his opportunity

to be able to have his racing in the truck series.

So we want to talk about all that, but also a short track racer through and through

started at the short tracks, still races at the short tracks.

He's recently announced that he is completely retired.

I don't believe it.

We're going to talk about that and more.

Let's bring Johnny in the room.

All right, Johnny Benson, Jr. on the Dale Jr. download, man.

It's awesome to have you here.

Yeah, no, it's great to be here.

Yeah, great to be here.

I just show all the time.

So yeah, awesome.

Man, you looking at your story.

I mean, I lived, I was, you know, a witness to a lot of it.

But looking back at at at your your past with more detail.

It's really remarkable.

All of all the different avenues that that you got to go down and got to experience.

First off, though, I wanted to talk briefly about your dad.

I knew that your father raced, but I never knew much about his career.

And somebody handed me a book of the classic at Oswego.

And it's I'm sure you've seen this book, but it's got a nice

it's a history of the classic as it's which is a super modified race,

the biggest, maybe super modified race in the country at Oswego.

And it does a really good job of sort of going race by race,

giving you a kind of a couple paragraphs on how the race played out

and who finished where.

And you learn about all these incredible names

that raced in that race and raced in super modified.

And your dad was one of them.

So, you know, what do you recall, I guess, growing up around race cars?

What's your first memory of being in the shop or seeing a car?

What car was it?

The well, when I first started in a shop, I was probably seven years old.

But I remember being four or five when

my dad did have super modified and it was down there.

And of course, every kid wants to sit in it.

So obviously I did that.

But so when he won the classic, which was a 66,

I was only three years old.

And so obviously I wasn't there.

But I did get a chance to see him run him.

But I was so young, there's a lot of it, I don't remember.

And and then as he got into the late model aspect of things,

that's that's when, you know, I worked in a shop.

I mean, I started at seven years old in a shop and and just worked on his cars

all that time, you know, he won multiple races, multiple championships

at Berlin and there's nobody better around Berlin than him.

But then he did start to run a super modified again,

back when same recessions, brace for Docker Motorsports area.

And he got he got killed, I think, snowmobile racing or something.

They asked my dad to drive it.

That was probably the time that I remember him running a super modified

and going to the races.

And I and I was probably 12, 13 at that point in time.

And that was probably my first introduction to the supers was at age.

I can remember in a pretty cool race car.

They are. They're crazy.

You know, just looking, learning through that book about the classic itself,

the evolution of those cars is fascinating.

I think, you know, when he went there, he always talked about that.

They they were starting to bring in the roadsters from the Indy cars.

And then he built what we would call the wedge car back in that day.

And I just remember hearing the stories.

Well, he went out qualified and he was fast.

Well, I don't remember what the bracket was, whether it was 20 seconds

or 19, whatever that bracket was.

He's the first one into that bracket.

And they said, nobody can go that fast.

It made him qualify, re qualify three times.

We kept working on a car, kept going faster.

And I thought that was kind of funny.

And then he won the race.

And yeah, I can't tell you how many times that when we used to race.

Walken's Glen people always asked me at that, your dad.

Nice as yep, it is.

And it doesn't matter where you go up and that end of the country.

I get asked that every time and still do today.

Yeah.

When did you decide that you, you know, wanted to become a driver?

That actually happened kind of weird because they're, you know, I was working

in a shop and, you know, just welding parts things that nature.

And I started building chassis.

I think I built my first chassis from the ground up and I was 13.

Well, I was about, must have been 18.

My dad quit racing and, you know, he had a couple of racks and he was like,

I'm just, I'm done with this.

And at that point in time, I like, who's going to race for the company?

And so that's when I actually decided, but I, but I built a dirt car.

We were selling both dirt and asphalt cars.

So I ran, I went and ran dirt for three years and that's, but I started just

because he had quit and I'm in my head is like, well, who's going to race for the

business?

So that's when I said, all right, I'll build a car.

Yeah.

So what kind of dirt car was it?

The like what they would call the world all eight models.

Really back in that wage car.

Yeah.

Um, where did you race?

Started off like that.

I own your Speedway.

Then it was a Thunderbird Speedway and, um, over in Muskegon and then I own your

Speedway or I 96, I'm sorry.

And I ran there and then I, we toured around a little bit, not, not too far.

Um, I don't think my dad really cared for the travel much, but there's a lot of

times I would just go and do it.

But, um, pretty much stay there.

I did go down to run the world 100 once, I think on my second year of race.

And I fell one car short of making a race and it was my own stupidity.

I was good in the heat race.

But in Michigan, it's like you, when they throw the green on a restart, we

usually do it in three and four down there.

They start and turn two while I was sleeping.

And I went from like, I think I'd finished in top five.

I was running fourth and well, then I'm like, eighth, I made it back up to

like fifth and I was one car short.

I just didn't know they were going to start in the middle of the

back straight or coming off too.

So I got, I got called sleeping.

So, um, you know, you're, uh, one of the things that I love about you is that

you, uh, you're proficient in building cars.

You're like, uh, you know, cars probably as good as you can drive them.

Yeah.

Um, you talked about building a chassis at 13 years old.

Um, you know, how, I guess how valuable was all of that knowledge for you as a

driver early on, right?

You're trying to, um, I can't imagine, right?

When I started driving race cars, I didn't know anything about setting them up.

I knew what I was looking at when I looked at parts of pieces, but I really

didn't know like how to make, I didn't know how to, you know, change the

geometry on my street, start car to make it turn better or, um, little things

like that, but how valuable was that information for you?

Oh, it's huge, you know, I meant, obviously I had a great teacher, you know,

so there's, I felt like every time that I built a car, it was pretty close to

start with because I, because of my dad, he knew where things needed to go.

So I think in the beginning, I really didn't understand it, but because with

his direction, everything was good.

I mean, there are most of the cars I've raced into.

I moved down here, I built and, and that was, I think that's the most satisfying

thing to build a car and make it go faster.

Cause that there's, I don't think there's anything much better than that.

You know, coming down here, of course you want to, that's a little different story,

but, um, but so I don't know if you said, when that time, when I finally

actually understood it, but it was, it was early on that I understood the, the

adjustment that we're making and what they were going to do now, some of it,

like if I started off blank and trying to figure out exactly what those

measurements are, that's obviously the hardest part, but, um, we had a good

starting point, I think when I raced and so we are never that far off, but, um,

but still that extra, you know, that that extra to get to go into race is very

complicated.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, when did you, when did you decide, you know, that you wanted to move to

asphalt?

What was that option?

What was that opportunity like?

It was, um, I think my dad wasn't happy because I wanted to run dirt.

You know, he wanted me to run asphalt.

So he'd give me a little leeway on that, but he was like, I don't want to

run it more in three years.

And we got super busy then because we were, like I said, we're building

a lot of spindows.

We got, we have our own quick changer ends.

We dump cans.

I mean, we were doing everything.

And so after I ran dirt three years, I actually took a year off just to

build cars, go help people because I burned out.

I was working, I was doing that and also working full time at a tool and eye job.

So I was just, I wasn't getting any sleep.

And so I finally says, I'm not running this year and just went to help customers.

And at that point, Tommy decided to build an asphalt car and, uh, you know,

go race at Berlin and give that a shot.

And I had driven my dad's car around there, but I was like 13.

And, but that's about the only time I've ever been on a racetrack.

And it is by far the hardest place that you can.

I say, I, I still say to win there on a consistent basis, my top five hardest

racetracks, um, to do good at explain to me what's so difficult.

There's no straight away.

It's just round.

It's, um, I don't know if I could pick a track that would be similar.

Um, that I've ever ran down here.

I don't know if there's one that I haven't been on one that I thought it was

as difficult as that.

No, it's easy to get around there.

I mean, don't get me wrong.

It's like hard to go fast around there.

And, and to, you know, get to that point where you could win races.

I think I ran there two years before I won a feature.

And, but once I got that figured out, we won all the time.

And it's just that it just sells little small things.

And it's tough.

Yep.

You were racing in the pavement ranks in Southwest Michigan,

art go, late models at Berlin, Kalamazoo, um, Iceman superlates at Toledo

championships at Berlin, started racing in the ASA series, uh, in 1990.

That's a change.

The ASA series is a touring series.

Right.

Um, that, that I'm, I'm assuming that your success presented you with an opportunity.

Um, how did you get into the ASA ranks?

The ASA part started at, um, Butch Miller, big, big name in ASA.

He was not that far from us.

And, uh, so we built their spindles.

We built their, uh, rerans.

We did all that.

Well, when Butch moved down here, I think cause I was doing all that parts and then

we ran good at Berlin.

We're pretty fast.

And, uh, so, uh, Leroy Truc from Truc Motorsports called me and asked me if I

wanted to try ASA.

And at first I, I think I said yes.

And I thought, what am I doing?

I love 50 lap races.

I don't really want to run 200 lap races.

This seems insane.

Yeah.

And, but I did take the opportunity.

And, uh, but he also brought in Bobby Sennacher.

So Bobby Sennacher is my teammate and, or vice versa.

We're, we ran together.

And so the two years we did that, I think we finished eighth in a points, my

rookie year, and then we finished fourth, the, my second year.

And then, uh, Louie always wanted to go down to just a one car gig.

Cause it's like race, it's expensive.

And he had a hard time telling me this.

And I go, I kind of figured out what's going on.

And I go, well, I go, if I was sitting in your shoes, I'd put Bobby

Sennacher in my car too.

Yeah.

You know, how many he's, um, he's very good.

He raced with my dad for many, many years.

And, um, and so at that point in time, I was, I didn't know what I was going to do.

I think I was just going to go back around Berlin.

Uh, that was right at the time that they came out with a new car.

And I was like, time just happened.

I go, I do not have enough time to, to try to design a car.

Cause it was drastically different from what we were running.

And so I thought, well, I'll just build a car run at Berlin.

I'm okay with that.

And then, uh, uh, Harley from port city called me and he goes, you have to run

this by your dad because they built race cars, but we built rear ends for them.

We kind of did stop back and forth and he goes, I'll give you a car.

Cause he says, you got to run.

I'll give you a car.

He got a car and an engine.

And then, uh, um, then I got two engines and then I ran it.

Ourselves through our own, own place.

And that, that was a task that I didn't think I was going to be, that was going to

be tough, um, great sponsors, you know, British Chevrolet, they had sponsored

my dad's for forever.

And, and then that year we went out in pretty much tied it with, I think we

finished second.

I think it was by one point, I think it was a tiebreaker with, uh, I think

Mike won one more race than I did.

And then the following year, uh, we, we'd won a championship on that.

So, um, you won races at Columbus, Milwaukee, Berlin.

Um, you won races at Columbus.

Again, the following year during the championship season in 93, you

won at Nashville fairgrounds.

We're getting ready to go run there this weekend in the cars tour.

Um, you know, what was winning the ASA championship like for you?

I asked that question because my, my memory of, um, the ASA at that time was

uh, it was like what the truck series is today.

You know, the truck series didn't exist.

Truck series would come in a couple of years after you won that championship,

actually, but Mark Martin, Bob Seneca, uh, Butch Miller, all these guys, Dick

Trickle had risen the profile of the ASA up to, um, you know, basically like a

Bush North or a very reputable, challenging, difficult series.

Yeah.

Um, and so winning that must have put in some, uh, eyeballs on you and gave

you some opportunity.

It did.

I think, uh, um, it was a group, group five sales.

I think it is that brought that and got to TVN on that.

That was the biggest help for sure.

And TNT or TNN, whatever, um, that was probably the biggest help on that.

And then so, I mean, my goal, it was kind of weird to say this, but my

goal wasn't to get down here.

My, I just loved racing.

I loved racing.

I was okay with doing it around home and things, things in that nature.

And, um, it was actually your dad was the one, I did a autograph session

with him at Bridger Chevrolet and we had the ASA car there.

And of course he brought the crew up there.

They used my car to do a pit stop for all the fans and stuff like that.

And, and chatted with your dad, but that was about it.

Just from the autograph thing.

And I can't, I don't remember what time of year it was.

It was still when I was running ASA though.

He called and we had three different shops.

I didn't have a phone in one shop.

My mom comes out there and says, guy in a phone for you.

I said, who is it?

He says, it's her and I thought, okay, you know, just say, I'm sure you heard

these stories a hundred times, right?

It blows my mind.

I'm like, yeah, whatever.

You know, somebody's just screwed around and about an hour and a half later,

he called back again.

I thought, well, maybe I better take it.

I don't know.

Um, and then he was like, that's it.

Or not.

And I kind of, I started laughing.

And he goes, uh, he goes, I want you to drive my car at Dover.

And I'm like, what?

I did, you know, and I says, okay.

And then, you know, he was pretty short because he's, all right, I'll have

my people get ahold of your people.

I go, I don't have people, but then somebody did call me back and they said,

uh, I don't remember if it was Good Rancher, AC Delco, or what was on the car

at that point in time.

They said they wouldn't let Dale not run the race, you know, cause back then I

don't, um, did you ever run it when it was 500 miles?

No, that was, yeah, grueling.

And, and it was at that time because I think when I ran it, my first year was

500 and they switched it to 400, which best thing ever did.

But, uh, so they wouldn't let him not run it.

And he says, and then he just says, I'll have, I'll work something out.

Well, that's when he got ahold of Ernie Irvin and I ran Ernie's car for the

first time.

So that, that, I think that was prompted through your dad, through, through

Berger, when I did the autograph thing.

And I think because of the TV, the TV is the, if they didn't have TV, ASA wouldn't

be known when it is, um, today, probably, but, um, I wish it were to carry

down as great as yours.

Yeah.

So you get the opportunity to race, um, in, uh, Ernie's car at Michigan.

Yeah.

Um, and that didn't go as well as you'd hoped, uh, ended up flipping the car,

which is second.

Yeah.

So, you know, I can imagine that, um, that was pretty disheartening to, to be

given, you know, to, here's, here's my, here's my chance.

Yeah.

Got a good car, then it goes that way.

And you're like, what was the whole, the whole week was kind of funny or not,

not funny, but of course I get down there and there's, there's no race car.

I may go, okay, this ain't good.

I'm looking for Ernie.

His car is there.

Well, Ernie was at the hospital because Kim was, they were having their first

baby and I'm standing on it.

There's no car.

Well, I don't know, uh, the guy got, I wouldn't say got lost, but got in a

spot where he couldn't get underneath the bridge yet.

So he was like an hour and a half late.

And so I really only got, um, maybe, maybe 10, 15 laps of practice before

going into qualifying and the qualifying went horrible, but in, I thought, okay,

be patient, which I was, I just got, I just got bumped coming off turn two.

And, and I remember your dad and Ernie were going, I get, why would they put me

at Michigan for one?

Right.

So they're like, well, you're not going to get upside down.

Everything would be fine.

And of course that happened coming off too.

And, and, uh, it was, it was quite the ride.

Yeah.

And of course, when I get out and I go, really, he said, we never get upside

down here, so I kind of proved that wrong.

But, um, but, and then that, but that did open the door where, uh, Ernie is like,

I'm going to help you somehow.

And, and it ended up, I think he went wearing a couple of racer based motor

sports and then he got me into that.

Yeah.

So, um, that's interesting to have Ernie be that person for you.

Um, you and him stay in contact today or?

Um, not too much.

I think he mainly lives down in Florida now.

I did see him at, um, uh, Darlington, I did chat with him for a little bit there.

And, but yeah, I meant, he, he always laughs because he, he took that frame and

put it in his pond out in his, on his front yard.

So he's using it, you know, for the fish and, and I forget who bought their

house and they were laughing about it.

The car was still there.

They finally got rid of it.

Stenhouse ended up buying it.

Yeah, I think it was.

I think it was.

And so no, that, that was a big help.

I mean, Chevrolet was a big help.

Um, you know, with Berger sponsored my dad, I think they started sponsoring

my dad in 1976 and they still sponsor us on anything we want to do with the

super that I ever run.

And that was always a big help.

Yeah.

They big strong ties with Chevrolet.

You ran full time for base in 1994, winning your first bus series race at Dover.

That year, um, this is when, I mean, I remember you running an ASA and I

remember seeing the races on TV and, um, hearing your name.

And when you started getting these opportunities to run in the, in the

Bush series, um, that's kind of where I started picking up on your career.

Um, you know, base motorsports was a great race team.

We won a couple of championships with Randall Joy.

Um, right before I would get into the series, um, you feel like you had kind

of a role in helping that team develop and, and of all of, I mean,

Jack Sprague was there for a while, but they were kind of, um, still trying

to get their legs, so to speak, to become that team that they would become.

Yeah, there, I don't know how long they were around when I went there.

I remember Jack being in there because, you know, Jack Sprague didn't

grow up that far from me and I built one of his, I wouldn't say his first race

car built one of his early race cars.

So I've known him and, and that was kind of odd for, I was kind of uncomfortable

because it was like they're getting rid of Jack and putting me in there.

I thought I'd rather have it going to somebody that you didn't know,

then it does.

I don't know if that makes sense.

Oh yeah.

But, um, and then I thought we ran pretty good.

It, we had ran at Charlotte and I think I was, we ran pretty good.

And then somebody, somebody blew up and we got, we got tied up in a, in a crash

there, but then we ran Rockingham and we were, I think running second with,

I don't know how many laps catching leader.

And, uh, I don't, I think it was just the roll pin in the distributor

come off and in it quit running.

And I thought, you kid me with only a couple laps ago on my, was my

second or third race.

So that's when Bunkard hired me.

So I wasn't hired yet.

I just ran a couple of races and discourse.

When I get down there and we'd run, we started running good.

And then he kind of, kind of lap will be over something or talk.

And he goes, how old are you?

And I told him I was 30 and he's like 30.

He's crap.

I know that.

I never heard you.

You know, I was like, well, I said, what are you going to do now?

And I don't know.

Um, I don't know if he just thought I was younger or wanted somebody

younger and, and it wasn't that way.

I'm glad he didn't throw me out of the door right then.

So, cause we obviously had a good, uh, a good run with that, but it did

take a little bit of time to get going.

Steve Bird was, um, tremendous work with, I love to work with him.

Yeah.

And a lot of races.

And I, and I think that I don't think people understand really the

relationship of the crew chief, how important that is, but we just click.

And you know, he's a race or I'm a racer.

There's just no bull crap.

Cause this is what I want.

This is what I like.

And this is, and then we had to figure it out.

And Charlotte was where that happened.

Cause I was, I wasn't that good there at to start with.

And I, and I go, dude, I looked at your history of stuff.

You, you always hold ass here.

And I think with Robbie, or Robbie Moroso.

And I says, why, I don't make any sense.

He goes, why don't have that setup in a car?

And I says, well, I go that you guys are really fast.

Let's put it in and let me figure it out.

When he switched that over, man, that thing just hauled butt.

And I says, look, I'll figure it out.

And, uh, we ran good ever since then.

He was like, I think he was just being, I think he was being cautious to

not get a fast race car, but sometimes a slower race car is harder and more

dangerous than a fast one.

So, um, I, we, we bridged that gap pretty quick.

And then we were, we were pretty good.

Yeah.

You had a lot of success.

Um, 19 top 10s, won the Busheries championship in 1995.

One at Atlanta, uh, which is a tough race track.

Yes, it is.

Yep.

Hickory, another tough one, two completely different ends of the spectrum.

You also competed in the inaugural truck series race, um, in 1995, uh, you had

a best finish of second at IRP.

The success with bum gardener in the, in the base motorsports, uh, you know,

quickly got you, you snatched up into the cup series, uh, for Bahari.

Um, I used to go over to that shop when Michael was driving there and I knew a

couple of guys on the team and, and would go over there and hang out with them

when I was 15, 16 years old.

And, um, you know, when they had, they were kind of a unique team.

I'm probably much different, uh, when you got there, but I would go over there

and they would have some really, really good race cars, you know, and then they

would have a couple of cars with an inch and a half bond on the quarter panels

and stuff that they just been, you know, they were just getting by with.

They take to the short tracks, but, um, you know, they, they started really,

you know, they started, uh, that team with Michael many, many years ago.

And they were developing themselves into a contender, even when Michael was

driving the car.

So you got an opportunity to get in that car when it was sort of cresting

up and you were able to take it even further.

Um, and, you know, have some even, uh, have some really solid runs with that team.

Yeah, they weren't an 18 that was, you know, they were a, they were a B team.

Um, and you, and you obviously knew that, uh, what was getting that opportunity

like where you hesitant even with the success you were having with base to go

to that team or take that next step.

Yeah, there, I don't know if I was ready to do that.

Um, I didn't really think I was ready to do Bush tell you the truth.

And, and I think sometimes you have that success so early.

I think sometimes you, it's one of those deals that I think you should just

wait a minute and continue that, but then you had so many people down there

saying, dude, if you got the opportunity to take it and I.

I honestly thought it was too early, even though my age, I mean, I think my age

helped me in that probably, um, but that, that was tough.

I mean, that's tough.

That's a tough move.

And we did have some good runs.

I mean, Indy was our, um, right there at the beginning.

I thought, okay, we're, we're, we're running good.

We, we just kind of messed up at the end with a pit stop and that didn't go well.

They stole the car and then all of a sudden we're way back, but we had a shot

at winning that, that, that first year with many laps.

So we ran, but, um, and other places we did run good.

We had a, um, a lot of glimpse of really being a pretty good, um, situation.

But, um, you know, they were building their own engines there.

Of course you're buying cars, but we're doing our own bodies, stuff like that.

I don't think they had the funding to do it.

And Doug Hewitt was amazing.

Probably one of the great crew chiefs that I worked with, Doug Hewitt.

He's awesome.

And, uh, I really wish I would have stayed there longer and cause I think

there was that opportunity.

But at that time, I think both me and Doug were kept going to Chuck, uh,

Ryder owned it, owned it at that time, saying that we need these, these tools

to win and his was like, well, if we win a race, we'll get those tools.

And so there was that little bit of conflict there.

And I think that's, uh, I think they could have been really, really good.

I think they were great.

They could have been really great.

They were, they were like, right there on the cusp of like triggering

something pretty remarkable with a team and, uh, with a sponsor like Penzel,

you know, it seemed like it was just right around the corner.

Hey, this is Dale Hart Jr.

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How did you get the opportunity to go to Jack?

You know, what, what was that?

Do you remember that phone call?

No, it wasn't a phone call.

Oh, um, it, it, this is muddy waters on this, but I was approached

from actually somebody from NASCAR basically telling me I needed to go over there.

I never talked to Jack.

Yeah.

And so I, I didn't, I didn't want to, but I felt like I was getting

forced to go over there in the first place.

And then, uh, so I remember, I know, uh, I remember that whole deal feeling

just a little off.

It was, it was, because there, when I was hard to do it from Jack,

because I eventually obviously talked to Jack, I didn't end up at the car.

I was supposed to, I was supposed to be, um, here in Mooresville,

Buddy Parrot was supposed to be the crew chief and that's, that's how

that road was going.

And then, and then within, within a month, everything turned upside down.

And you already decided to do it.

Yeah.

I was already committed to it.

You already walked away from what you had.

Yeah.

And, and, uh, but I didn't, you know, I only had that a two year contract with the 30.

And, and I think that that was actually the first contract I ever had because I

run for a base and I have a contract, you know, just go race.

That's what I did.

So that was, that was a difficult part there.

Cause I felt like I was shoved to go over that way.

And that was not my wish, but I didn't know how to handle it.

I'm, and I'm new down there.

Yeah.

You know, I didn't, I didn't talk to as many people as I should have.

But at the same time, but at the same time, it looked like it was a step up.

I think it would have been if it would have done what the original agreement was.

Yeah.

I think it really would have been.

Yeah.

But when you got there, it seemed like right out of the gate.

It was a, it was a difficult.

It was, we started while Daytona, um, I think it was that first year of

miss race, both me and David Green were running.

We were both in the race and for whatever reason, he tried to go by me on the last

lap and he got loose and hit us when we both spun.

What knocked me out of the race.

And I was like, dude, we're both in a race.

There was nobody around us.

You know, so Jack was mad.

I was mad and so was David.

I mean, it was just one of those things, but.

And we started off pretty good.

We were really fast.

I went to Rockingham.

Yeah, you had a good run there.

Really good run until the engine broke and there was some stuff happened there.

Then all of a sudden they were trying to take our car for us to bring it over to

Morrisville and then Steve Meale at the time was there and he, he was blown up

because I think he wanted to go with Mark and like I said, everything changed at

that point in time.

And then he was down there with the torch.

He said, I'll cut this car up before they take it from us.

And I knew at this point in time, I go, this is, this is not going to be good.

So I had a four year deal and after two years I walked away.

So I remember it coming out of the gate pretty strong, looking good, looking

positive.

And then you, then it was like a struggle every single week to get results.

It was horrible.

Yeah.

Um, I just have a hard time understanding.

Like I have, I know that Jack and Roush, Roush as a history are different.

There's a different culture and a different place to work.

Um, we've talked with a Biffle on the show and several other people and it

was a functioning place that could be successful and you could actually go

there and produce, but they did things a certain way and Jack operated with a

certain outset and mindset or approach.

And if that, you didn't fit, you didn't fit in and, you know, and so what

were the things, I guess, you know, what, what was irreparable?

What, why, what, you know, not many, no one that I know of, even when things

got, you know, when things got difficult, have, you know, maybe a bit

Murray, I don't know, but not many people have wanted to escape the situation.

So what was irreparable for you?

Um, was it was like a five car team at that point?

It was, but there was a just spread too thin.

Oh, very thin.

I, I think, I think they wanted their top two cars to win.

And that's all they cared.

And now if I owned a five car team or four car team, I want them all to win.

I want to run them first, second, third, fourth, and fifth.

If there's five, that would be the goal.

I don't think that was her goal.

I think your goal is to make sure that these two ran really good.

It's the only thing I can think of.

We were, we were a skeleton group.

We had more people on a bush team than we had at, at routes when I was at

base motor sports had more people.

And if you're going to run a cup series, that's, that's difficult.

You know, that's, you know, I don't, you know, I think it could be efficient,

but it just wasn't not with, not with no people.

And, you know, we did a couple of crafts, a couple of cars and that, that

that came to turning point because Jack, I mean, I, I do like Jack,

but working for there was tough.

And it got to the point, I forget where we were at the points.

And he said, I'm going to start charging you if you wreck another car.

And I told, and I did.

I told him, I said, Jack, I says, I've wrecked more race cars running for

this team and I have my entire career.

I don't think it's all me.

I saw take, I'll take some blame, but it ain't all me.

And I says, so I got a little offended at him saying I had to pay for the

wreck cars.

I told him that if you don't, I says you did not, don't pay me the rest of the

year.

And if you don't get me in a top 12 in points, I said, find another driver.

Yeah.

And that's where it ended.

I mean, I made it through the year, but it was over at that point in time.

Man.

And, and that was at Charlotte because they're, we were testing air, Mark was

there and there's a not, there's no worse feeling.

He had Mark Barton jumping in the car and go run, right?

He's going to run two, three times faster.

No matter who it is, you know, it could be in Gordon's car or whoever.

And when he did, he went out there and he run, he run about two times faster at

Charlotte and he'd come in here and said, man, this is one of the best cars

I've ever driven.

And I says, great.

I says, I will trade you.

You could have that car.

I want your car because he was, he was three quarters of a second slower than

he was in his car.

Yeah.

And he just got done saying, that's the best car I've ever driven.

Yeah.

And I says, well, we're trading right now.

You know, and, and then he, he got a little confused with that until he looked

at the times and he just walked away and say word.

He was like, oh, that's not good.

Cause it drove good.

Just went fast.

Yeah.

And, and that was the start of the, you know, they fired a crew chief and I

don't think that was the right thing to do.

And I mean, it just was a down, I see where it's going.

So I just, at the end of the year, just find some males.

When you were looking for your way to, um, to exit, where, where, what

opportunities did you have on the table?

I didn't.

Yeah.

I didn't, I, um, there, there was an opportunity with, uh, with the eights and

I talked to Doug Yates for a little bit and they had said that, you know, Hey,

if you got out of that, we'd hurry up.

Well, I didn't get out of that for that reason.

I think I was already doing it when they talked about it.

When I did get it done, they had already hired Ricky Rudd.

So at that point in time, I was like, well, we'll just see what happens.

And that's, that's pretty much how I got involved with getting in a, um, Tyler

jet, Tyler jet, but I don't know if it started off with the 10 car, but yeah,

that would become the 10 car.

Um, a lot of people remember you mostly, um, outside of your truck series

success, driving this 10 car, um, particularly in a race at Daytona in the

500, the first year you go, you guys go up there, you've got no sponsorship.

There was a lot of great, um, conversation, uh, around your team, the speed

y'all had, and y'all were able to, um, I think get Lycos on the car.

We did, we had that.

I don't know how real it was.

Yeah, we did, we did have it on, but it was just still a white car with a

little logo on the side.

Um, and I remember y'all, uh, made a gamble at the end of the race on

tires to try to go out there and, and, and win the race and almost pulled it off.

Um, you know, that was a, what was unique about this team?

Cause this was the team, you know, you'd, you'd, you'd came into the 30 car with

Penn's oil, the results were good.

The team was improving.

It didn't, it didn't tank.

It didn't, you know, the performance didn't drop off when Michael got

out and you got in it or whoever was in the car before, um, always associate

that car with Michael Walter.

But, um, you go to Roush and it flamed out really bad, right?

And everybody, no one would know really why and just assume, man, if it didn't

work at Roush, where is it going to work?

Um, but this was a team where you really found success.

What was it about this group?

I had, uh, I knew one or two people over there.

And when I went over there, the one thing I guess I did like about it, there

were all short track guys working on this car and just people that I've seen

around the garage area and some of the people I've known outside of that, that

run, uh, like James Jens was there, you know, he was big into dirt cars and, uh,

the outlaw dirt cars and with, uh, you know, Larry Phillips and Terry Phillips

stuff like that.

And, and there was three or four other guys that I recognized from some of

them from ASA, some of them from here, I thought, man, this would be kind of

cool if they're all short track guys.

I, and, and maybe that's not a good or bad thing in this particular sport.

But, but I do like their ambition to, to make sure everything's right and get

done and fast working at it.

And, and that was the atmosphere that it had.

And so that's when I says, I would, I would love to run it.

And just as long as it goes, it goes, it doesn't matter.

And Daytona, you know, we were good at Daytona.

We, we struggled a little bit in after, I think we, after we pulled the

qualifying engine out, we, then all of a sudden we lost some speed.

And then we had some conversation with Randy Dorton and, and, and Rick and

all that, and they gave us a different engine.

And we picked back up to where we, we felt that we were already going to be.

And then we run the, was the 125s with it.

And then I think a hundred actually flew that engine back and redid it and

brought it back for the 500.

So I, a lot of that success was just over that conversation or just that one

engine switch, we were like, how do we lose so much speed?

And, and with them doing that, I think is one of the main reasons why we're good.

We did do two tires at the end.

And actually cars still pretty good.

It drove really good.

But, um, it, uh, I, I got too far out on a restart.

And then I'm looking, I was in a Pontiac had four forwards behind me.

I knew I was a sitting duck and, and it was a matter.

I tried to come down, but once he got me loose, I, and I remember your dad

went over and says, man, I would have put him in that pond.

You know, cut them off.

I go, yeah, but I would have been with them.

Cause I'm, all I'm doing is trying not to wreck the car at this point in time.

And I just let up enough.

He got underneath me and I thought, well, that's over.

But, um, but it was still a great run.

Yeah.

I mean, it was fantastic.

You, I mean, obviously everybody wants that to turn out different, but I think

we still finished 12th and that for me down there, that was great.

It was awesome.

So you run second at Bristol and, um, your best cup finished at that point.

Um, the team was sold to MB two, um, MB two is a unique team, uh, with a lot of

unique history that had some success over the years.

Uh, what was that transition like?

Was it more stabilizing or was there some, no, it was definitely more stable

cause it felt like we were going from.

We tried to, we tried to mess the system up a little bit.

We went to, uh, where was it?

I think it was California to test.

Well, we didn't have any cup tests left.

So we went there as a West and West.

Well, we got caught and you know, my Keltons like called and, uh, he goes,

yeah, you are running at race, right?

And I think at that time, James goes, Oh, we just got caught.

He goes, Oh yeah, we're running at race.

So we brought that car out there.

We had to run to West race and we won that race.

And then they, where'd we get the engine?

I think we got the engine from Hendrick, um, uh, through Sprague.

I think it was one of Sprague's engines and then they deemed it illegal.

And then it was like all of a sudden taken a win or, uh, $40,000 fine.

Well, Tim Beverly, they have the money.

Well, you have to pay that for, you can run the next race.

So we were loading everything up for the cup race.

Oh, everybody's like, what's going on?

He says, can't pay to find, we're going home.

And then of course, then they come back and says, Oh, hold on.

And he goes, no, that's your rule.

That's what we're doing.

And I don't know what they worked out.

They either cut it way down.

I still don't think you paid it at that point in time.

But that's, that's when we, that's when we realized that financially, we were a

lot more troubled.

And that's what MB2 kind of stepped in at that point.

Yeah.

So it didn't really change.

Our team didn't change.

We just changed.

Yeah.

You got Valveline as a sponsor.

And they, you'd have a really strong run at Dover.

Second at Dover, finished 13th in points, came back in 2001, won the Winston

Open, continued with them as well in 2002.

I want to talk about, you had a crash at Richmond in the Bush series and broke

some ribs, missed a couple of races, and then gotten a car and broke them again.

Yeah.

They're, they're rich from one, I mean, I broke, I broke some ribs in my back

there, but they were a little bit more problem.

I had a shadow on my ear or my heart.

That's what kind of kept me out of the, out of the thing.

And they kind of watched that for a little bit, at least for the two days or whatever.

And so that was either a go or no go either to have a surgery or not.

And what were they thinking they were going on?

They think I ripped it from the rack because it was, it was a pretty hard hit.

But, but then it ended up, they kept checking.

I don't know how many CT scans and MRIs that I went through.

Then in that 24 hour period, it was a lot.

And then they finally said, OK, I think we're OK.

But you probably ought to not run for a little bit.

So I did, I stayed out and I can't remember which one I get back to first.

I think I don't remember if it was, I think it was at Daytona's where I heard

him again, where me and Michael got hooked together.

And.

But that was on a different side though.

It was just, I don't know why my ribs.

I don't know what the deal is.

I had the joy seeds.

Everything was good there.

Is this some of the impacts are just hard, hard.

I mean, we all know that.

And, and they were just, I don't know if I don't know.

It doesn't make any sense.

And, you know, I got with the joy and, and.

Jonathan Paul, that's down here.

And, you know, he was just taking X-rays where all the brook have to be

the same angle as the seat.

So that's when Randy and I started doing a different things on there

that helped a bunch.

And so working with Randy on the seats and all that, that was pretty cool.

And, and, but I think that's just my background of.

Wanted to make things better and things that nature.

And there was an obviously a reason why we were breaking stuff.

Yeah, at the end of that year, you would go to Rockingham and get your

first couple in, which was remarkable.

I think the opinion of the, the opinion of the fan base and, and, and even

the garage was really, y'all were still that little team that could.

You know, I think so.

Yeah.

And doing a lot with a little James was the crew chief at the time.

And I want to, you know, that wind seemed like that was going to be

the catalysts, right, to send y'all forward.

James would end up stepping away from the operation.

Yeah, he did.

Like that, like all of a sudden, all of a sudden.

And that, that kind of turned us upside down.

But they're exactly they, that was one of those deals though, that we

were trying to build cars in house.

We were still running Hopkins or Laughlands or whatever it was.

And the other side, I don't know who came in.

I know Schrader was there for a good, good bit.

I don't know if it was Skinner or somebody, somebody else coming

there or Nemechak and, and they were trying to build their own cars.

Well, this, one of those things felt like I always got stuck in these,

but they weren't as financial strong there as it kind of appeared to be.

Although great, I mean, it was still good, but all of a sudden

they were pushing to build their own cars.

I did do some testing on it and I says, oh, the cars, I think it's got potential,

but it was kind of, it was kind of evil, it was unpredictable.

And so I wouldn't run it.

And so we stayed with our staff.

Well, I think it put too much stress on James at that time.

And he just walked out.

I know, like y'all just, y'all kind of just won Rockingham not long after that.

He just steps away.

You never got any answer on.

No.

No, I don't, I still don't know what really what it was.

I mean, I know there was a lot of, there was a lot of pressure in this sport.

We know that, but I think it was that.

And I think it was being forced to do something with these cars or whatever

the situation was.

And then Jay Guy stepped into that there and Gary Putnam.

And, and we actually finished a year off just fine.

I mean, it didn't really change.

I think the last race that I ran would have been at Miami.

And I think we finished fourth in that race.

And, and then it was kind of over at that point time.

And that they're, they were just like, I don't think it, I know Riggs drove it

there for a short bit, but I don't think it went very long after that.

No, because it was, it was starting to head that way.

It was like when James left, I mean, not, I just felt like that he was, he and

you were a good combination and a good reason why that car continued to sort

of produce and improve and eventually, you know, it wins this race that we're

all expecting that was going to have, you know, y'all were kind of running

second, third, fourth, fifth, finally get this win.

And he decides that he needs to get out of here and it was never the same sense.

At the end of 2003, they would release you and bring in Riggs.

Riggs comes in and, you know, tried his best to make it work.

Rodney Childers was a crew chief at one point for that team who's here in

Junior Merch Sports, Rodney would go on to have a great experience.

But you would go back to the Bush series.

Was there a, you'd go race for James in the Phoenix racing, which is always a good time.

Yeah.

The, which is such an interesting landing spot for you, right?

You seem like a very reserved, you know, methodical, smart decision.

I'm not going to do this unless it works.

It feels good.

And James's operation was very, a little flamboyant, you know, a little brash,

very honest about who they were.

Yeah.

And that was an odd couple, odd pairing.

But had you, did you seek out more opportunities at the cup level when they

released you from the tent or did this pop up and you went, man, that sounds good.

Well, I, I love James, but he's awesome.

But I knew going in that this was a five or six race deal, even though we're

supposed to cover for the year.

I mean, everybody's standing there watching as we see what happens.

If you're going to win every week, he's going to try something different.

And I knew that going in.

So I was like, I'm fine with this.

Okay.

And, but, you know, we're still doing our TV show.

So I, I always had something to lay back on.

So it was like, I go, well, this would be fun.

And we did.

We went there and, and we did have some good runs, but where was it that gateway?

You know, we're shifting there back then.

Well, the shift in handle kept falling off.

And well, you got, he was upset over that and a couple other things.

And like, I think even Texas, we qualified horrible and even though the

car was fast and I actually complained or something on the track.

Well, they went out and checked.

I went and finished my qualifying thing.

And we just, we didn't put the caps on the water heater or cool down unit.

So I spray and water out.

So I started at the back was yellow freight race with yellow freight on the car.

And we drove up and I think finished third or fourth and James is just mad that I'm

like, oh, your people were happy.

But at that point in time, I go, oh, I know he's going to make a change

eventually, which he did.

I knew that going in.

No, no, it's been things.

So then, you know, I was still doing some TV.

Then I obviously got an opportunity to go to the trucks.

One of the things that I hear from you is anything, anything that happened to you that

would maybe most people might view as disappointing really didn't get under your skin.

No.

Is that like, is that something that you're, is that some trait from your father?

Is that you're, you know, you kind of go into these situations going, I know what

I'm, I know what I'm facing.

I know what could and can't happen.

And if it did go well, it went well.

If it didn't go well, you moved on to the next thing without any, I mean, do you is,

is there real frustration that, that you hide?

Is there, is there, you know, some, some disappointments that eat each you or all

that stuff is just kind of water under the bridge?

Oh, that's, you know, what's going to, there is, there is those spots where it does do that.

But there's so many things out of your control that you can, you know, you can

leave there and be mad.

Of course you are when it happens.

Don't get me wrong, you are, but it's like, I can't fix that.

Yeah.

So how much of it do I want to ruin my life before I decide to go up the other way?

I learned out on that pretty early, I think, um, just working with my dad and,

and how he approached things and how hard he worked.

I mean, it was work for my dad was tough.

I mean, he, he, he's a workaholic, you know, he, we did the race shop.

He worked at, uh, at the railroad, you know, I worked there and then I had a

full-time job and he's doing the same thing.

And I used to always laugh.

I says, I love Sundays because that was my day off because I only had to work

from noon to six and I'd love Sundays, you know, in work for my dad.

And I think that that I didn't really get that frustrated because I didn't

see him get that frustrated.

And I think that that's just probably just my way of dealing with it.

It was like, well, if this happens and it already happened, I can't fix it.

So why, why wait too long for you to say, you know what, just move on,

find something else to do.

Cause I always felt like if, if it didn't work out and, and I could always go back

home, I could always go back home and build cars and, and you would, I would.

And I did.

And fortunately, or fortunately, I did it.

What down here when I was racing cup, I had so many customers wanting to

want me to build cars.

And I said, look, I'm not going up Michigan to do it.

So I build a building, uh, down here by, um, next door to, uh, champion tire.

And I, I think through all my cup stuff I was doing, I was still building

race cars with other people and I quit doing it probably about eight, nine

years ago, I finally stopped.

You know, and I was like, I don't even know this.

Now they did.

Everybody thought I moved back to Michigan.

Yeah.

You ended up landing in the, in the 23 truck, uh, for Bill Davis racing at the

back end of the 2004 season or sometime around then and would have a lot of fun.

I imagine, I mean, watching, yeah, watching you run that truck and know

that every weekend you got an opportunity to run in the top three.

You're going to win races.

Um, we were talking about this series yesterday.

Um, the truck series, um, was solely developed to market the truck vehicle,

right?

But, um, it was also a place where a lot of guys found a home where they

could race for a living.

Uh, that didn't exist for a long time.

You know, you might, yeah, I mean, ASA or maybe, maybe in the Bush series,

but, um, the top of the dimes of the world, the Mike Skinners, a lot of guys

ended up in the truck series and made a nice living, um, to be able to kind

of finish out, you know, that sort of 20 year career that we all hope to have.

Um, and you were able to do that in that truck and have a lot of fun.

I mean, was that as good or as much fun as you had behind the wheel of a

stock car as it looked?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I don't, I don't care what series is, if you're running good and

you can, you know, propel the team or to get these, you know, wins and all that.

It's always fun.

Doesn't matter what level you're at in, um, but we did, we had, we had good

success there, um, you know, good crew chiefs.

Um, I ran near three and a half years.

I think it is, I came in there halfway through and, and we, we bumped

right in going well and I thought, okay, this is pretty cool.

And I was on a handshake deal.

We went from race to race.

I says, and I finally told Bill, I says, I, I hate calling on Wednesday

and saying we're racing, not racing.

So I finally just told him, I go, only call me when you don't want me to run.

And then that way I could keep in contract with a crew chief and try to

figure out your travel plans.

Cause every week I'm like, I don't know if I'm racing or not racing.

Really?

So he says, all right, so we did that and we did that for three years.

Yeah.

So, um, you were the most popular driver in the series.

Uh, well appreciated by the fans.

Imagine that was a good feeling.

Probably as good as any championship.

I met you, I met how many times you've won it.

It's awesome, right?

Yeah, it is awesome.

You, and you would, uh, went a lot of races and, and when the most

popular driver board multiple times, um, you know, you won these championships

and had all this excess, uh, it was, you, it was over.

Um, the career in, at that level was over.

Now you, we're going to talk about it.

You go on to do a lot more, uh, with, uh, with in racing, uh, beyond that point.

Um, this is a part of the show where I like to ask this question, um, because

it's a, it's as much for me as it is for, for the person sitting in that chair.

But what, what is, what was the process like, I suppose, in, um, closing the door

on racing at, you know, the, the truck O'Reilly or, or cup level, right?

You're mentally, those doors are open.

You're in a truck, you're winning races.

And so mentally you're open to whatever opportunity you might walk in the door,

but at some point you, you say, you know what, I'm, I'm ready like your dad.

You know, what got up one day and said, I don't want to drive anymore.

You know, one day you said, you know what, I'm going to go home.

Um, I'm going to redirect my focus in racing to something else.

Um, what was that like?

You would, you bit, you're down here.

You established a foundation.

You've got to shop, you're building cars.

You're doing all these things.

It, I mean, it's tough.

I'm at, I just, I knew at that point in time that before the year was over,

when we were on the truck, won the truck championship, I knew that team was closing.

So like, wasn't a whole lot of opportunities.

Um, and, and I wasn't sure really what I wanted to do.

I know Harvard could call me once and, and asked about going over the truck.

And I was, I was interested in that.

I really was.

And, but then it was when we won the championship and then Bill Dave's is closed,

I called them, well, he wanted me to leave like before five races to go.

And I said, dude, I can't do that.

Not, not in the middle of running for a championship and I'm running against this truck.

And so that, that, um, I was, I was actually kind of excited about that.

But then, then when a year was done, he was like, well, no, you didn't want to do it.

And I said, well, I did, but I just assumed you're going to wait to end of the year,

not during the middle of the year or not.

I mean, there was only four races to go.

And so at that point in time, I was like, I don't know, you know, uh, uh,

was it Red Horse racing?

They hired all of us from, from there to go try to win a championship.

And, you know, we build all the bodies or triad did there, but we, he came down there

and I thought that was going to be a really good situation.

And then we, I think we were six in points.

The teammate was, uh, like 21st, somewhere in that area.

And I think he started to see how expensive this is to run for a championship

because it has run into win races, running for a championship.

There are two different budgets and, and I think he saw that.

He thought that that this is not going to work.

So he was basically saying, you need to build trucks like the other team.

And I go, well, hold up, we're six and points are back.

I said, that's going, that's going backwards.

And I've always been very vocal about moving backwards.

I'm going to say something.

I'm not, I'm not just going to sit there and okay, those would be fine.

Well, then he fired off all of us.

So I thought, okay, I go, you know what?

That was actually better than the road.

We were going to go down.

And at that point in time, I says, you know what, I don't,

if a great opportunity come along, I'll do it.

If not, I'm not going to.

And, and, and so I didn't, I didn't really dwell on it.

I mean, I, I felt like I, um, for sure could go in there and be competitive.

I knew that.

Yeah.

But I didn't have anything to prove to anybody.

So I didn't care.

I was like, well, I'll just do something else.

And, and that was still just, um, you know, building race cars and,

and still racing.

Am I still raised to just, uh, just not at that level?

You, you run.

You raced a super for Brad, uh, litchy.

Yeah.

Lickty.

Yeah.

Um, you went back to, to, and raced in the IMSA modifies, uh, at Berlin in 2006.

You made your first start, no six there.

You went to Sandusky nearly won the race.

Um, so that is something that I think is really, uh, fun and fascinating.

A lot of guys, when they decide that they're done at the cup level, they,

they don't look to going back to where they came from, right?

I told myself, you know, I want to kind of go out the same way I came in.

I want to go run a couple of Bush races or a rally or Xfinity races and did that.

And now I'm running my little late model car.

The same stuff I was racing when I was just getting my start.

And it's been amazing to go back to these race tracks that I ran at and see a lot

of the same people now they're, now they're fathers or grandfathers and their sons are

racing and so forth, but the same families and the vibe or culture and atmosphere within the

garage or in the, in the pits that these race tracks hasn't changed all that much.

Um, and, uh, but, and I'm, and I'm curious that a lot of guys like ourselves don't

go that route. A lot of guys, when they finish driving, like Jeff Gordon, for example,

is a great, he's a great example.

Like Jeff, when he retired from the cup, he has zero interest.

Now he plays a little bit.

He drove a little I rock thing with Ray over at 10 tents and he ran a little Porsche race at

Indy one day, but I'm like, man, you still could do it if you wanted to, right?

You could come jump in.

Yeah, you could jump in their rally car or one of ours and go race at a track that he loves

and just have fun one day.

He's zero interest.

But then there's other guys that, that still want to race and they go find things to do,

go find race tracks to race at.

Um, and that's what you did.

You weren't done driving.

You weren't ready to be done driving.

What was the appeal, I suppose, of going back to the short tracks?

Well, that, I think the short tracks are my passion.

I, I love them probably more.

I meant, you know, going to the super speedways when you're running your

Charlottes, Daytonas, Talladegas, they're kind of cool at the beginning

until you wreck there once or twice.

And then I dread it.

I didn't dread going there.

I didn't care as far as that, but it was like, you just know eventually you're going to get

tied up into something.

And, and it was, so that was a little less appealing to do.

Like if I was going to go play and they give me an opportunity to, to run in a short

track, I get to pick a short track more than I would Charlotte or Atlanta.

And I did help some testing with some people.

And, you know, after I'd say it was done, it was after my truck stuff.

And I was running a super in my LA model.

And one of the guys that was on the 23th, they were, they were testing over at, um,

Martinsville and he's come over and come over and help me.

So I did.

I went over there and, and, um, he wanted me to get in.

I could do it.

I ain't been in one of these in six, seven, eight years.

And that's, of course, they got the big swivel, all the different crazy stuff.

And wildly fast.

Lots of power.

And so I went out there and it ran.

And I go, all right, cause the kid, he said, you couldn't keep it on the bottom.

And then I run right on the bottom.

I says, man, I says, this turns better than a truck we won this race with, you know.

And we did that for a little bit.

And then, uh, I was like, right, well, then he wanted me to go to Atlanta.

And I told him, I, I said, I really, I'll come down and help.

But I don't have any desire to get in a truck.

Well, he eventually got me in there.

And it was like, you know, Atlanta, like going into turn three there, it's,

it's never secure ever, you know, anytime.

And it's, it's bad when you're doing it at a weekly basis.

Well, when he had better one for five, six years, that's not a very good feeling.

And so I went in there and that was like, all right, I don't need to be doing this.

And I came in, I go, unless we run through two, three sets of tires,

I'm not going to be able to help you.

And I said, the kids running faster.

I was way faster than Matt Martinsville, but down there, I, I wouldn't run that speed.

I was, I was like, I'm going to take, it's going to take more laps than I feel like

I should be doing this.

Yeah.

And, and I don't feel at this point in time, I'm helping you.

Yeah.

So therefore I'm not doing it.

And I mean, I stayed for the rest of the day, don't get it wrong.

But, um, and we did change a couple of things, you know,

just based off his comment in the three laps that I did run.

I was like, I changed this and this and they did.

They picked up a fair amount and then he was more comfortable.

So I guess I was okay.

But, um, so, so like I say, I like to short tracks.

I love to do that.

I love to run my all late model car.

Suit modifier is something that was new to me.

I've seen them.

I've watched them, never been in one.

And they're crazy.

They're insane at how fast they are.

And we've run at, we've run at five inch mile tracks faster

than we run at show the motor speed way in a cup car.

That's insane.

And it, uh, they're a lot more physical.

Like 50 lap race.

I know this is all you want to do and they're, they're insane.

But, uh, but a lot of fun too.

Yeah.

Guys are very respectful in those cars.

I imagine you have to be.

There is no wheel banging.

Yeah.

Very little.

You were involved in a crash at Berlin in 09, broke a collarbone,

separated shoulder, ribs, bruised your lung, broke your wrist.

Burns.

A lot of stuff.

Yeah.

Is that when you, when you go through something like that,

do you have some serious conversations with yourself about

whether you need to be doing this at your age?

None.

Okay.

It did anybody.

My dad did.

Yeah, right.

Did anybody in your family try to not talk some sense into you?

And, um, so there, we had that and I, I mean, I was tied up for a while.

And so at the end of the year Cowboys called me and says,

hey, we helped us get down at Smyrna.

And, um, I said, okay, it was the truck team.

And I says, you only rule is at the end of the task, I want to drive a truck

because I haven't been in a vehicle.

And, you know, and, and like I had a, a mess of your concussion,

which I like to talk a little bit about with that with you later.

But, uh, and I was like, watch and, and, uh, crew chief when I was at Bill Davis,

uh, Rick, Rick Rand, he was a crew chief then.

And so I, I very understand what he was doing.

Reading all the tire sheets and stuff I saw where they're at.

And so it was set up that I got in a truck after Etienne.

So I was to get ready and he goes, well, I'm going to do this to it.

And I go, no, I says, free this thing up.

I'm looking at all the stuff the kids running.

And I says, free it up.

Let's just roll it like we would if you and I were still racing at Bill Davis.

And which he did.

So I just left pit road and just straight through the gears on the floor.

And I ran three laps, came in and I says, I'm good.

And he was like, I didn't expect you to leave pit road the way it did and go.

And I says, well, that's, I think if you approach it different,

you're already in trouble.

Yeah.

If you don't just go and, and I did.

And he was like, truck's pretty good.

I go, yeah, we run like three, four tenths faster than a kid.

We were helping, but he didn't have as much experience.

But, uh, and I never been at Somert.

I never been on trial.

Yeah.

And so I was like, nope, I'm good.

And so, you know, a good thanks to Kyle for trading that off for me to help his guys.

And, and, uh, him let me jump in there.

That's, I knew I was fine after that.

Well, you got to race a couple of truck races for Kyle Bush.

Your final NASCAR start was with Kyle at Texas.

Yes.

Yeah.

10th.

You were trying to put to get, put a deal together with turn one racing in 11 didn't come together.

Um, and you're back in the MCM on it, you know, if you served on the national motor sports

appeals panel a few times, I did, uh, I think I was out for a couple of years.

And yeah, like that's a bit of an honorable opportunity.

It is.

But man, I tell you what, when you've, you know, when it's all your people that you've

raced with and some of your peers and some of them aren't, you know,

I just felt like I was in a weird.

Oh yeah.

Weird situation.

And there, there was one particular case that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.

I'm like, it's just, it was a odd feeling.

I don't know if that makes sense.

You know, I mean, everybody, everybody has their idea of, of pushing rules and interpretation

interpretation of the rules.

We all do it.

There's any, anybody that races that hasn't done it and some of them are probably more

over the edge than the other.

You know, and this is just one of those weird, weird rules.

Actually it was a shock failure, but they went and take it apart to find out what it is.

And they're just like wanting to hold that penalty up.

And I'm like, hold it.

I thought we had that.

That was our role.

And it was, it was, it was just kind of different.

And I kind of felt bad because it was like they wanted to define nobody cares about,

but they were really wanting him to like miss the first five or six races.

And this was after a Phoenix thing going, I said, dude, you're going to absolutely

destroy his career.

If he doesn't have a job going into the season, he's not going to have one the entire season.

If that happens in the middle of the year, that's not as, I don't think it's big of a deal.

But so we, we kind of got that term, but it was, I think it was difficult.

And you know, I felt bad.

I go, man, I don't really want to be in a situation where

even though they may have caused the situation, but you hate to put somebody out of race and

just because of somebody's decision.

And I didn't, I didn't want to be that person to make a decision.

Even though it was a group one,

but I felt there'd be one day that that would be hard to live with, I think.

Yeah.

So I, I didn't want to do it.

You got out of that.

So this is around 2011, 12, you back, you're back home, you're back racing full time.

You race full time in 11 and 12 in the MCA super modifies wins at C conk and other race tracks.

You were in the inducted into the hall of fame at 2013 still driving race cars.

You joined your father who went into no one.

You were elected into the Michigan motor sports hall of fame in 2018 still driving race cars.

You joined your father there who was inducted in 86.

You were inducted into the Berlin racing hall of fame in 22.

Your father went in and 06 and 2023 you competed in SRX finished 12th at Berlin.

Your final race of your entire career was a 2025 North South North South shootout at

Caraway local track here in North Carolina, a super modified event.

You ran fourth and then you decided to announce your retirement on March the 6th,

2026.

So I remember seeing on social media that Johnny Benson has decided to retire and I thought,

was he racing?

Yeah.

Like I didn't know you'd been racing all these years up there in, you know, up north.

Yeah.

Just around it.

Well, that, yeah, the North and Northeast is modified.

So they don't, you know, they run more up on the East side.

And may have you predominantly been driving super mods?

I only, I think I only ran one full season.

We, I said, I'd love to win a championship in that.

And like over from 11 to net from a 2011 to 2025 on average.

What will you racing?

How many races a year?

Sometimes eight or 10.

Yeah, it's not, it's not a lot of double headers.

You know, like Berlin would run at, we'd run a Friday night.

And then Saturday, they're two totally different shows.

So it'd be like you showed up instead of the next week.

It was just the next day.

And that helped on travel and expenses.

And so there was a lot of events like that.

And other than caraway, I mean, we did a practice qualifying or heat races on Friday.

And then we race on Saturday.

And but, you know, every time I wanted to go race, it was 10, 12 hour drive because I was,

I still live here.

So all the races are up.

No, you never moved.

I never, I never did.

So when you went to race a caraway and ran forth, did you get out of the car going,

all right, last box is checked?

Did you know?

No, no, I didn't.

I didn't.

What made you decide that I'm done?

And I got to do another one.

What's stopping you from answering the phone one day and going, yeah, I'll drive it.

How do you make it official?

I don't, is it ever official?

No, you made it official.

I know it.

I always feel like I always wanted to run some more.

But just, you know, that I love racing with Brad and Mike and all that.

Well, Mike, they own a trucking company up there.

And Mike's got a sprint car now.

And he wants to, he should do that.

He should run the dirt.

I mean, he's run sort of modified this whole life.

And I've had a race by a low light model in and it was actually funny.

It was probably no different than I was.

He was scared to death of the thing.

And I go, really?

You're running a super.

It should be the other way around.

And it ran good.

He runs second and he did like it.

But so I felt and I told him this.

I says, look, I probably need to quit doing this.

I'm getting too old to go that fast anyways.

And but Mike needs to do what he wants to do because he's working on a sprint car.

He's working on his super.

He's working on my super and then working during a day two.

And it's it's 11 hours and going across the border for me to go up and help.

And I felt that I like to work on them all the time and I wasn't getting that.

So just driving it doesn't doesn't necessarily fill that void.

I like working on them and then driving them.

You know, try to improve them, try to win every week and things like nature.

And I think that a little bit of that element was missing.

So that's why I chose that.

So you're you've been down here all this time building, you know,

building race cars and going up there and racing a little bit.

You also have mentored some drivers over over, you know, the course of that time,

one of them being Carson Hosar.

You know, how enjoyable, I suppose, was it to to help him?

And what what what type what type of reward is that for you personally?

Oh, it's great. I mean, every all the people I've helped.

And, you know, I thought I'd help Danica out with it with it with yours there for a short bit.

But but somebody that's new and starting their like Carson's dad, Scott, he had

he had purchased race cars for me, but he had other drivers driving them.

And one day he had said, he goes, Hey, when my kid gets a little older,

would you help him out?

And I says, well, who's your kid?

And he points over there and I go, he's just tall.

He's like 10. Yeah.

And I thought, okay, well, it's gonna be a couple years.

I knew he was doing a quarter-budget stuff.

And I really thought that that would just be forgotten type scenario.

And then I think when he was 11, his dad, his dad called,

they said, you want to buy my house car?

And I'm not selling you my house car.

Why do you want my house car?

Don't make any sense. I'll build you a new car.

And he goes, no, I want to put the kid in it.

Like what kid?

You know, because I'm thinking of their drive.

I know there are other drivers, you know, and then he was talking his.

And I says, well, let's take us a different approach.

Let's let's bring them down here.

Let's put a do a seat or form a seat up and move the pedals.

So we went to create test and and I have tested there a couple of two, three times.

And he went out in, I know the first time I took the outcar car there,

you get around here pretty fast.

I mean, I was kind of surprised.

I can look at a track and tell you, but and I thought,

well, I can get in a little 14s easy enough.

I think I can get into 13s.

Well, Kevin, he goes, right in the way.

I go, you ain't seen these cars run.

And this is a late model.

Not I did.

I went 40 lap tires and I run 14 30s.

And then I think I get down to 14 O's and Carson got in it.

And he's running 14 50s, 14 60s, like to start with.

And by the end of a two day test, he's 14 30s.

And I, you know, and I expect to be a couple of times faster in them,

but he was gaining that pretty fast.

And so then I was like, okay, well, then a scout of staff was like,

well, we want him to race at Berlin.

And I go, I go, you sure you want to do Berlin?

I said, Berlin's fast.

It's tricky.

And he goes, nope, that's what we want to do.

So I had him test at Hickory a couple more times.

And I told him, I got up there and I says, listen,

I could just place his way faster than you think it is.

And he did.

He went out there and run a couple laps.

And then I started helping him more and he got,

he got faster and faster.

And he did get out of the car.

He seemed to be shaking a little bit here.

This place is fast.

It's way faster at Hickory.

And, and, but he would like, we ran the year and I meant pretty much running

in top five almost the whole year.

The second year, I think we struggled a little bit, same car.

And, and then they were kind of wanting to go to the template cars.

I didn't build the template cars.

I don't, I don't care from that much.

And so I hooked him up with the, uh, Versa Landam and he did run for them.

But he ran, he ran through that one spot where he was struggling.

But I think it was his growth.

I mean, because he wasn't at all then and all of a sudden he was like,

goes way up there.

And I, he did struggle through that and it took a minute to figure that out.

You know, I don't think he thought he was, but I thought physically he wasn't

quite ready or that growth thing was just making him not ready.

I think, and then they worked it out, you know, talk to his dad,

dad put him in a program, had him checked and,

and then obviously he's doing pretty good.

He's doing great.

You, um, you know, you, you've, uh, decided to, you know, to hang it up.

So you still live down here.

You know, what do you find?

What do you find time to, you know, that you enjoy?

What's some of the things that you spend your time doing now that, you know,

racing's probably still woven into the DNA of your afternoon or your week, but less and less,

especially if you're never, you know, if you're done driving.

So, you know, it is, I, Carson's moved on to the cup series.

Like what's, what's, what's the projects?

You know, I've got, I've had calls about mentoring people, but I don't,

if it, if it's not like I haven't driven that type of car, like I think if I was

going to help somebody like with your cars, not understanding the car, that whole little

bed, I think it's very hard to help.

Now I can do the, the standard, you know, well, just that,

but I'm more about trying to get you to go faster.

I'm more about chassis and stuff like that.

And I don't think that opportunities can be available down here just because the cars

are very different.

So no, but I do still do some fabrication work.

There's a couple of buddies, of course, they own businesses with plumbing stuff and I build

their fun stuff that they do the racks and things that nature or just, just weird stuff.

Got my dad's old Corvette.

I think he bought that.

It's a 1965 Corvette he bought and I think it was like 10, 12 years old.

So I'm in a process of redoing that.

So I'm, I'm getting busy, but I, but I'm not stuck.

I can, I can go do what I want.

If I want to take off, if I want to go somewhere, we just take off.

Yeah.

Who's we?

Me and Nicole.

Wife.

So yeah, we just, other than that, we, I'm more of a homebody.

Yeah.

I don't mind.

I, you know, we've got like 19 acres and 900 feet off the road.

Nobody sees this.

It's awesome.

You know, you got one neighbor back there.

That's just horses run free.

So they come over and visit stuff like that.

But other than that, I meant, I love fabrication work, but I don't want it to be 10 hours a day.

Yeah.

I feel like I've, I've done enough work throughout my life that I'll just take these

small projects that may take a day or two.

Yeah.

And just find something to do after that.

Yeah.

You ever see yourself like, you know, you ever see yourself

working on the short track scene in, in, in this environment down here?

I think it'd be interesting.

I think maybe we'd have to see what that would look like.

Right.

Type type thing.

I mean, I was involved in Berlin when Berlin had that there was like four or five

of those limited partnerships that were involved in it.

And I was, I was on competition rules, rules staying, but, but we don't have that many rules.

Yeah.

You know, so, and I did that for a little bit, but

I don't, I don't want to feel like I need to go to the race track every week.

Yeah.

And, and I think that's, I think like one of the guys that says, wanted to mentor a guy,

then he sent me a schedule and I go, God, that schedule is five times more than I was doing

racing with the super.

And I was like, why don't want to do that?

Sure.

But if I could help somebody, I would.

Yeah.

I just don't know at what level and how far I feel like once you get to a certain part,

they should be able to handle that.

Carson has done that.

You know, we get to that part and it's okay.

You got to adjust what's going on.

And I'll just keep going after it.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Because I did help him on a truck race down at Phoenix.

Really?

Yeah.

And, and well, I spent a few years ago, but, and so I did do that.

I did do that stuff.

And I enjoy that.

You talked about the big concussion you had no nine, I suppose, was it?

Is that the only time?

I'm sure you've been banged around and run your bail multiple times.

We all go through those.

Yep.

It was by far the worst.

I shouldn't have lived through that for one.

Really?

They're, I can't remember the guy's name that, I think it was with GM and he was one of the

safety guys.

And he passed away not long, I can't probably about eight, nine years ago or maybe not been

that long ago.

Anyways, I did have a computer in a car and I just like the AIM system for the gauges,

stuff like that.

And NASCAR came and looked at the car after this wreck.

And they took the computer and he had said that he's never seen a spike straight up.

Well, the computer only went to 100 Gs, but it was straight up.

He goes, it's always on an angle.

He says, this thing was straight up.

And he goes, I can't guess.

I can't even guess what that would have been after.

They, they came and looked at the car and everything.

I mean, it was, it was tore up.

It was, it was pretty bad, but, but I had broke a lot of stuff.

I mean, I was, I was in ICU for four days.

I meant there, I don't think it was one of those touch and goal things, but I mean,

it was my lung, my kidneys and, and all that were in pretty bad shape and same with the,

I guess, knock on my head.

I was bleeding out of my ear and all that fun stuff, but there's, but I have my moments

where I can't remember what happened yesterday.

And then, you know, I got to figure out, I don't know if there's a way around that.

I mean, I'll say this, my doctor told me, he's like, you know, I started,

you know, going through the process of the symptoms and went to see my doctor in Pittsburgh.

And from the moment that I realized that I wasn't all right, I started analyzing myself daily.

And I recognized or, or, you know, when I would forget where I put something or forget why I

walked across the room to the refrigerator, I would, I recognize that and I would highlight that in

my mind as a moment. And, and I went to him, you know, I'm going to him through this process

and telling him everything. I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. And I'm, man, you know,

the other day I did this, the other day this happened, the other day I turned my head and I

felt this and I forgot this and forgot that. And he's like, he's like, you can't put every single

thing that happens in the concussion bin just because you forgot where your keys were doesn't

mean that's a concussion related thing. Some things are just going to happen. People forget

names and birthdays and things they said they were going to do all the time. Yeah. And I needed to

stop analyzing every day and sort of tracking every day is this sort of, you know,

trying to understand the, you know, the metrics of wherever, if I'm in and I am proving.

And so I kind of, I, you know, I am forgetful. Is that related to my concussions? Maybe not entirely.

I laughed the other day. I told somebody I said, I can't tell you, I can't tell you they were

asking me about something and we did the day before and I go, you know, I don't really remember

what we, what that was. I'll tell you in about a year. I was like, I can remember that happened a

year ago or two years ago, but I can't remember things that happened in the last week. But those

things I'll remember in a year, you know, just laughing. Not that that's really true, but

I feel like that. And again, you know, I'm no expert, but as you and I get older,

we are less likely to, you know, as when we're younger, our mind is constantly recording

every day, everything we do, we think, every conversation we have, every moment, every song

we hear, our minds are just this processor that's just recording and downloading all this

information and storing it away. And as we get older, we do that less, just out of habit. We're

realizing and downloading and recording and processing and storing away every single thing

we do all day long because we realize that that's not that important. That's true. And so

if you said, man, remember what you said yesterday? And I don't, I don't get all that

in that shape about it because I didn't, in the moment when, when I did it, I didn't file it away

is something very important because we get, we've tuned ourselves to only file away the

things that are critical. And, you know, I don't, I don't know. I think that now there are some

things that are real, you know, there are some symptoms and issues that are real. And I'll tell

you this. I am, I am not the same version. I'm not, you know, I kind of call myself this is 2.0.

There was the first, there was that one version before the wreck and now there's this version.

I think 100%. Right. And that, that, that I had to, that I just had to come to terms with,

right? That not everything was going to, I wasn't going to be as sharp or as as elite or

as I wanted to be. And another thing I'll tell you too, and I think you can appreciate this,

it's like when we're racing a car every single week, all of those senses are so perfectly finely

tuned. They are. And when you get out of that rotation and you no longer do it day in and day

out, you never, you can't, you know, when you do go back and get behind the car, you see that,

you see that five or three or 4% that's not there. Yeah. That the other guys have,

that they're the other guys that are doing it every single week, you don't have it. You don't

and you're not going to. And the one thing I don't have problem is, is actually being in a car.

Yeah. And I think it's, I think you got to concentrate so hard. Yeah. That forces you.

It forces you to just stay on track, right? I mean, sometimes under caution, you find yourself

like, yeah, get back. I'd rather go back green now. Yeah. And, and so I did have that problem

in a car and I don't have the problem if I trip. I remember reflexes are still

pretty good. Yeah. And so I don't know what area that it is, but I'll get the

tremendous headache and that I never used to have before ever. I mean, it's probably just started

in the last three, four years, you would get that, but only, only for a short minute. But God,

it feels like your head's getting cut off, you know, and then it kind of goes away. And, and it

I've had to know my times to walk across shop to get something and not know what you went over

there for. Yeah. And then you get back and then you go, Oh, crap, what the hell? You know, what,

what was I even looking for? And then I have to think of what I was doing. Because I may have

two or three different things going on. And, and, you know, from building cars and all the

machining, your head's always, always rotate in. And because I still always have this great

ideas for some of the race car to do. I don't want to put the energy into it now. I'm at the

last, I think the last all car I had been that thing, it was just wicked fast. And there's

some things that I think they do to make it even better. I don't want to go through the energy to

do it. Yeah, you know, it's just, and I, and I just feel weird about, okay, let's get somebody

to do it for you. But it, but it never works that way. No, you know, not, not not necessarily

in tune to what's going on. But I do, I do enjoy those aspects of things of the racing. And I think

that's what keeps me playing and keeps me fabricating and things that nature excited. I do like to do

that. Yeah. Well, I, you know, when in terms of the, you know, the memory and head, you know,

I feel like that my doc, you know, I had this really great vision. Most of my career and like

2010 always had really good vision. And then I had the, the concussions and stuff. And when he

sent me to an eye doctor, I'm like, Oh, my eyes are great. You know, I don't, I got to see this

eye doctor during this whole process, but the guy started putting glasses on me. And I picked my

mom's glasses up one day and I was like, wow, I didn't even know my vision was steering off in

the wrong direction. But it is. And so now we're glasses all the time. And he's like, you know,

you were probably, I was like, I was so disappointed in that, man, this wreck and this injury has

messed up my vision. I really was going to have great vision all my life. I loved being able to

breathe and see everything. And now I got to wear glasses and without glasses, I'm literally useless.

Right? If I sit on the couch with Amy and I don't have my glasses on, she's like, check

us out on my phone. I'm like, I can't, but my doctor's like, you were going to get this way.

He's like, this accelerated it a little bit, but you were going to do this.

And so it's kind of similar with the memory and like, isn't my memory as sharp as I think it

should be? No. But it was probably, you know, this is likely a, you know, an aging process.

Anyways, maybe it's a little more profound. But I do that too. I'll, I'll, I'll walk across the shop

and I'm working at the shop and walking across there for a particular bid or something like that

and a tool or whatever and get over there and go, what the hell was I, what did I need?

Um, sometimes it comes back in five minutes, sometimes it's two days, you know, that's a,

you know, that's probably the best way to look at it. It's usually nothing bothers me. I don't

really do well on it, but it was like, there's certain things that, that are just a headache

thing would be something. I'm in a place personally where I no longer recognize

moments as going, oh, that's a concussion related thing. I never, I don't, I'm thankful for that.

My doctor told me he's like, quit analyzing yourself, quit putting everything in this concussion

being thinking that you're, you're this damaged goods and everything that happens that you don't

do perfectly goes in this concussion box. And I'm like, all right, I'll stop. And finally,

you know, I go through days where I don't even think about it. And I don't, I'm not like reminded

that, oh, yep, that, that's something I went through. And now I'm, so, but there are some,

some moments. Um, but if I was having some pain, you know, that would drive me right back to the

doctor. Like I would probably say, Hey, you know, I've got, I'm the feeling physical pain and I just

want an MRI or something to get in there and look around. Yeah. And it seems odd. It's so long.

I meant it. This was, that represented on nine. I know. And, and then why all of a sudden is it

doing that? I don't, I agree. And, and, but that happens, you know, I, when I,

not the same thing, but my last real issue with concussions happened in 2016 and the wreck that

I had that triggered it was two months before, like I had wrecked. I knew when the wreck happened

that I'd gotten my bell rung, but I was like, I'll be good in a couple of days. I was, went on and

raced for two, uh, two months with no issue, perfectly fine. And then all of a sudden I started

realizing my vision was getting blurry in my eyes. I felt a ton of pressure behind my eyes

and all these things. And I'm like, Oh, I must have allergies. I don't have allergies. Never had

in my life, but this is what it sounds like. And I'm just talking to people and they're like, Oh,

yeah, probably allergies. And, you know, finally we got it all figured out and diagnosed, but the

issues I always felt like you get, you get a concussion or you have a concussion from a moment

that, you know, an impact or a thing that just happened. Somebody hits you upside down with a

bat concussion, right? But sometimes there's these lingering effects that can come out of nowhere

from months or even years after an incident, right? As our bodies are always changing and

evolving. But, um, yeah, I mean, if you're uncomfortable or having any kind of pain,

I would certainly like think, All right, let's get in front of this.

Could be something completely unrelated to concussions.

I, I, you know, because I didn't, I knew I had a bad concussion and it, and it was,

but because I was out of the race car so long, just from surgeries and fixing everything.

They had a good, I didn't feel that, uh, I mean, I had that vertical there for the first

week or something like that. Every time you wanted to get up or something like that. But,

but that went away pretty quick. And even, even after I did get back in racing, I didn't, I never,

I couldn't feel that. I couldn't feel that, uh, yeah, that that was fine. You know,

it's probably just old age. Maybe I'm trying to claim it on something.

Yeah. You're putting everything in the concussion bed. You're just getting old.

I know it, right? Yeah. And like that, that headache could be unrelated entirely to this wreck.

Well, no, you've no idea. We always, we're quick to make assumptions. And me and you

were mechanical minds that we want to connect things and make, make things make sense, right?

I know it. That's a bad habit. Yeah, it is. Um, uh, well, look, let's see. 62 years old.

I know that she may not love this, but I think you got one more.

You got a couple laps left in the tank. Oh, absolutely. Um, you're in great health.

You look awesome. I mean, I'm in good health. I think at least, um,

you must, you must pay attention and for the most part try to do a good job.

There, it got to the point that, um, everybody fluctuates on all their stuff, right? And it was,

you know, the cup cars, yeah, they're hot. They're

warm and they're still hot. But the, the physical aspect to drive one of those cars,

I've never experienced that before. It just, I mean, I can't even,

we're, we run, I've run Toledo and I think we ran a truck race and I come over there

is a 40 lap race. It goes green. The car was a little loose. I started like 12th or so.

Um, and with those cars, somebody was running a little heavy on their fuel with that,

with methanol, it just burned your eyes, you know, and all of a sudden I was like,

I couldn't breathe because those cars, you can't breathe in the corners. So you're,

you're constantly trying to adjust your, your breathing because of the loads.

Yes. Oh my gosh. And so I was like, I'm really pull off track. That's only a 40 lap race.

And I'm like, man, and I looked up at the board and I go, it was lap 32. I go,

well, I can run eight more laps and I'll breathe. And of course I got to the end and jammed the

belts off. And I think that that seat in that car didn't quite fit quite perfect. But um,

in any ways, I'm looking at the board and it's got 74 up there and I don't make any sense for

third or something like that. And the three of us have stopped on a starting finish line. So I stopped

up there. Brad comes up there all happiest, man, if we had a caution, you'd have won this race.

And I go, dude, he had no idea. I almost pull off the track at lap 32. And I was like, man,

I'm either just so out of shape. But then what Kyle Busch has had the Rowdy 250,

while I was racing that on Wednesday, I was scared to death going into this race. I thought,

geez, I just barely made it through this 40 lap race with the super. And, and I got there and we

ran out and I think finished third and I was like, God, I could run five of these.

So just a 50 lap race while those things are insane. They're just, you get,

if the car's not quite white, it'll absolutely wear you out. And so you kind of try to stay out

of that. Yeah, for sure. But they're fun. Well, man, let's stay in touch, man. I didn't know you

were still down this way. And we got a lot of great things going on in the cars tour and around

racing in general. And we'll have to have you out to see what we at least now I'm going to go do

some of these races. Yeah, come come visit us and just kind of see what we're doing. I'd love to

do it. Yeah, dude, it's fun. And it's close. All our races were there. And you know, most of them

were within three hours of drive. I like working with Tony Erie. Yes, with Danica and stuff like

that. I think I did some stuff with some brakes with them. And of course, seeing them at the

racer ads. So yeah, there's, I mean, I've got to keep obvious on your schedule. I see you racing

somewhere where we'll probably sneak over and see how it's going. Yeah, come check us out.

All right, buddy. Thank you very much for today. It was a lot of fun. Johnny Benson Jr. on a

fun conversation. I love obviously that he had this career in NASCAR and then he went back and

ran a lot of short track races since then in the last decade, decade or so. And even like right now,

like he's very matter of fact, I don't know, man. I wonder if way down in there, there's

there's if he's, if he's like hiding his true like emotion around things, but like he didn't get,

he doesn't seem too upset or bothered by things that didn't go his way on the cup side or the NASCAR

side of things. And he, you know, he's just like, yeah, I'll just go back and do this. I'll just go

do this. Yeah, I don't know, kind of envious of his lack of emotion in terms of the frustrations

or the disappointments and every one of us has faced at some point in time in our careers.

But he, it's a champion man, Bush series champion 95, 2008 truck series champion,

1993 SA national champion and a lot of Hall of Fames. He has

he's got, he's had the, he's had a very robust career, man. I think a lot of people really

appreciate him. I enjoyed that conversation, man. It's a surprise we hadn't had him in here sooner,

but that was a good one. So we're grateful for Johnny coming through the the RB studio today,

don't forget about Arby's new meat and three box, get more meal for your money at Arby's.

We have the meats and we'll see you tomorrow.

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About this episode

Johnny Benson Jr. traces his racing path from growing up in his dad’s shop and super modified lore to building his own chassis at 13, then climbing through ASA and into NASCAR’s touring ranks. He reflects on winning the ASA championship, the highs and brutal learning curve of Roush Cup life, and how thin resources and team priorities made it hard to succeed. Benson also covers Daytona’s near-miss with the 10 car, multiple injuries including a life-altering concussion, and why he ultimately returned to short-track racing—plus mentoring Carson Hocevar and retiring in 2026.

back racing full time B-Team building a chassis building chassis Chevrolet concussion crew chief Cup series Darlington Daytona 500

Original notes

It’s not often that racers go on to have competitive second acts to their careers after retiring from the limelight. This week on the Download, Dale Earnhardt Jr. sits down with a driver who retired a NASCAR Truck champion and retraced his family roots back to the short tracks: Johnny Benson Jr. Born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Johnny grew up in the shadows of his father John Benson Sr., one of the finest chauffeurs the Midwest had to offer in the 1960s and 70s. John made a name for himself in the supermodified ranks and served as part of the Michigan invasion of the mid-60s to the legendary Oswego Speedway, where he captured the crown jewel Oswego Classic in 1966. At home, he was an accomplished parts builder and fabricator, which is where young Johnny got his first hands-on experience.

Once John stepped away from driving, Johnny rose to the occasion to race for the family company, initially stepping into Southwest Michigan’s dirt late model ranks. He quickly graduated to pavement competition, taking on the challenging American Speed Association tour in the mid-1990s, where he captured his first national championship in 1993. The feat landed him on the radar of many in the NASCAR ranks, including none other than Dale Earnhardt Sr. and Ernie Irvan. Johnny received a shot at the big time in the Busch Grand National Series, where he’d continue his winning ways with a season points crown in 1995. He was promoted to the Cup Series, driving for Bahari Racing, Roush Racing and finally MB2 Motorsports, capturing one lone victory at Rockingham in 2002.

Johnny’s Cup opportunities would run their course, but he’d find later success in his NASCAR career driving for Bill Davis Racing in the Trucks Series. He’d become one of the few drivers in NASCAR history to win crowns in multiple series when he won the Truck title in 2008, before returning to his short track roots, getting behind the wheel of a supermodified in International Super Modified Association competition.

Arby’s Meat & 3 box is available for a limited time at participating locations while supplies last. Prices may vary. Get your Meat & 3 box at an Arby's near you today.

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