Keith Perkins Gets Mad Daily At How Shops Are Ran

I have told Liz and I told John when we put him in the front, I said, if you come out here in the shop and you tell a tech we have to get this done as quick as possible, I am going to lose my mind.

Yeah.

I'm going to yell and scream and rant. And I get worked up regularly. Not over stuff we do, over stuff other shops do that we're dealing with. When we see the mobile request come in, I was like, you're not going to believe what this shop is saying. It's every single day.

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another exciting episode of the J2 Bootcanic podcast. I always have good guests. That's just one of the rules, right? Is the guest is what makes a podcast. Nobody's here to hear me. And today we're not going to break tradition. And we're going to have on somebody that, like, a lot of us have a lot of respect for, somebody that's very well known in the industry, somebody that is super respected in the industry, somebody that I am, I model myself after. How I want to approach this industry is with my guests today. And I mean, here's.

He's kind of starting to blush, but I'm here with Mr. Keith Perkins from L1 Training and Diagnostics. And this has been a long time trying to get this happening. And, I mean, I can't be more over the moon that he's here. So, Keith, thanks for joining me today, buddy.

No, thank you. Yeah. And it's less that I'm super busy and important that I don't get on here. It's that I have 79 and a half HDs that are firing all the time, and this half, one that's just in and out. So I'm unable to keep track of anything or what I've done or what I need to do or who I'm responsible for.

I. I have to tell you right now, the first time when, when I met you at a. Well, got to really sit down and meet you and Liz, I remember having breakfast with you at aste. And I'm sitting there and I'm like. And you said it. And then 100%, I'm like, you said, I'm on the spectrum. And I went, yeah, you definitely are. You.

But it's in one of them, one of them empowering ways. Like, I mean, I don't know somebody that, like, can focus the way you do. And when you get on a topic, it's like just. It's so, so refreshing to be around. Right. Because we Know that everything coming out of Your mouth is 100% researched, proven, tested, the whole thing. It's fantastic. But what we, we get talking.

A lot of people know your background, but can you give me a little bit of a short synopsis of it? Because like it's a fascinating little story.

Yeah. And I'll give you a little more than what I usually give. I'll keep it still super short. But essentially I'm a fourth generation technician. My, my great grandfather owned a shop in a town 45 minutes north where I live. And then my grandfather owned a shop my whole life and it kind of skipped a generation. My, my dad, it's on my mom's side.

Yeah.

And my dad grew up working on cars just because it's poor. And I grew up working on cars. I was poor. My dad was like, go to college so you don't have to work on your own vehicle. And I was like, that sounds good, dad. So yeah, throughout the whole life, I always worked in the automotive industry doing things. Even in high school I worked at a parts store like most people do. And then I got a job.

I kind of stayed working in the automotive industry even when I got other jobs. I went to school for Internet network security. Cyber security. Did that. Worked through a cyber corps program where I did some government contract stuff. Also part of the way through that I decided I hate cubicle work. Can't stand just sitting in an office or something because I grew up in a family where we had to fix everything. I grew up in a home that the federal government gave us because I'm Native American.

I live on a reservation or I did. So that was the house I grew up in. So at school it was, hey, you're one of the Indian kids. You live in Indian homes. I get made fun of for being poor. Right. So that's just how that works. It's what I dealt with.

And it's part of, you know, my whole drive to be to move forward all the time was growing up that way. I. Something clicked at some point in time. I had two very good male female father figure type father figures. I had a dad and a stepdad. Whole different ball game to get into about. I write a book on it on the stepdad thing, but horrendous story, way outside of bounds. More something like me and Fanslow would talk about on.

On trauma. So part of the way through that I was like, this is terrible. I. I don't like working in offices or anything. I went to go get my bachelor's degree in criminal Justice. At this point in time, Liz and I had moved to Colorado. No kids, married four years ish. Three years ish.

Yeah, yeah. Just just over two years. We moved to Colorado, lived there for about six years. Was getting my bachelor's in criminal justice. Went to work in, in a prison. Still working part time at a shop that rented out bays to people. Now this is in, in Colorado Springs, Colorado. It's a huge military town.

Pretty much 90 of everyone that lives there is military or dependent of. And my, my father in law was working there. He's, he's been in the military. His entire still works government contracts today. Fun story there for a second episode on how we both use picoscopes at work.

Okay.

Yeah. Completely unrelated. One automotive, one industrial engineering. Yeah. So I'm doing that. I worked in a prison for about three and a half years as a corrections officer doing prisoner transport. Denver General for guys that were the location I worked at in Denver was the main prison hub. So we would get everyone that had medical stuff, anyone that had cancer that had to go for chemo treatments, anyone that had dialysis.

There were four dialysis machines in the facility. So we had a very large infirmary. So I spent a lot of time working around that. So it's kind of like a medical security job. But it was in a state prison that was maximum security. We had, we had the Holmes guy that shot up the theater there in Aurora. I lived there, worked there at the time, was in law enforcement at the time. It was a big, big part of why we even left.

The executive director of the prison, Tom Clements, who actually signed my basic training certificate that's up there was assassinated in his own home. Someone knocked on the door and shot him. So we left shortly after they were doing drive bys on the facilities that I worked in. It was terrible. I didn't like going to work and worrying about my life and turned me into a very cruel, very specific individual. I don't, I didn't have much, I didn't see much hope in most of the the world. Everywhere I would go is just what kind of criminal is that guy? Like nobody, he's just buying bread.

Keith, I can, I can relate to so much of that because like so my little pocket of the world. Kingston, Ontario Kingston, Ontario. We call it the first capital of Canada because officially it was.

Yeah.

Now everybody goes whoop dee doo. Well the first capital of Canada then had the first prison in Canada.

Yeah.

And then for a long time we had more criminals per capita per square mile than anywhere else in the Country. So when you talk about the, the correctional system, there's so many variables that you're telling me now, the parallels that are like my people that I have worked with in the family, kids I went to school with, like, we had at one point, like eight prisons within 100 square miles of my location. So a lot of inmates, a lot of people working within that. So I'm very familiar with the culture of it. Like when you're talking about, you know, medical transfers and stuff like that. Like my own brother, Correctional officer for 20 some years did all of that, you know, and is now he's a.

Better person than I am.

Yeah, he didn't make it 20. He almost did. And then, yeah, after an attack at work.

Yeah.

PTSD and massive concussion effects that, yeah, he's unable to work. So I, I. Not to derail the thing, but I'm.

Oh, no.

Yeah. When you talk about, you know, you didn't see much hope for anybody. People, humanity, whatever you want in general. Yeah. So. So anyway, you're in that.

Yeah, I'm in that. I'm still working part time at this place where I'm going on the weekends and working. And, and so he rented bays out. It's called Do It Yourself Garage. I think Jim still runs it today in Color Springs. Shout out to Jim Pettis if he's still out there doing it. But it was in a military town where if you were already military, you could go on the base and use the hobby shop for free. So it was tough work.

So we'd get cars. And I think he grossly underestimated what the general population was capable of. Or grossly overestimated, realistically. We'd get cars come in and people would start tearing them down and they'd be like, I don't know what to do. Yeah. And then so I would just make quite a bit of money going, well, if you can't put it back together and you're on the clock, you could pay me and the clock and I can put it back together much faster. Or you can keep screwing with this.

Yeah.

And so because they're paying like 25 bucks an hour to use a bay with a basic set of hand tools.

Yeah.

And that's actually that basic set of hand tools I helped him set up is kind of what we use today in our shop, which I'll get to momentarily. So there's that HD is kicking in. And so after working in that shop, working part time in that shop, working full time as a corrections officer and a full time student all at the same time. We got kind of a, an opportunity. It's around Christmas time. It was actually 24th of Christmas. I don't remember exactly what year my daughter had recently been born. So it's going to be around 2012 ish probably or 13.

We were going to come back and visit family and my grandfather had not met my, my daughter yet, my first daughter. And so it had been 12 or 13, December 24th. So when they took off to go drive, my grandfather passed away that morning. So he never met my, my daughter. So that was kind of like, man, we're missing a lot of family. My wife has a lot of family back here. Really. It was just her parents were living up there.

Well, they moved back. So now we have a kid and we're in Colorado. They've legalized recreational marijuana. There was not really any rules in place to kind of control some of the situation. So the whole town was just, it was terrible. It was a terrible time to be there. So we decided to move back. So I came back and I actually took over a parts store.

I called a friend of mine that I worked with for a long time that I bought a bunch of cars from. Nathan was like, hey, can you run a store? And I was like, yeah, I can run a store. I can do whatever. If I can manage people that want to kill me, I can manage People ticked off because their car's broke and they want to buy parts. Yeah, so. And I've always been a pretty good parts guy. I feel like I was a better parts guy than, than most when I did that. And so I went back and ran a parts store for about four years for advanced auto parts and then was getting ticked off with that same thing.

Dealt with shops. I was dealing with shops, calling, going, hey, I need a starter and a crank sensor and ignition switch for this Jeep. Like no you don't. So I was, I was getting in trouble for telling shops, no you don't. You know, And I was like, that's just not the case. So I went to work for a shop and then started going into working on vehicles and went to a, went to a Christian brothers off the bat. I'd worked at like when I was in Colorado. I part timed at a minikee for a couple years.

I did a couple other. Always just. I don't know, I, I hustle. I'd never imagine not having a job.

Yeah, you're. Yeah, you're a guy that goes and goes and goes and runs on six hours sleep and makes us all feel really, you Know like unmotivated and, and so much more we could do.

But yeah, and man, you should, you should see my internal guilt when I sit on the couch on a Saturday and watch a movie. I'm just like, there's so much stuff I gotta do. So Liz said that last weekend she was like, this is the first weekend you haven't done anything in like nine months. I'm like, feels good to rest. I was like, but I'm getting behind. So. Yeah. So then, you know, I started working in shops.

Didn't like that for. After a while it got to the point where I was just seeing the things I didn't like about the industry. You know, flat rate was, was starting to wear on me as the diagnostician in shops and buying my own tools and all that stuff. So I moved a couple shops three times in, in the period of two years and moved three shops and ended back on another. Christian Brothers again. Each Christian. Just so we're clear, I love Christian Brothers as a corporation. I still go back every year and teach at their, their event where they send all their texts.

Yeah.

And. But you're working for a franchisee owner. So each individual store is owned by somebody different and it's a totally different experience, one building to the next. So the last one I was working at, I got fired out of. Long story. Don't worry about that. I'm positive it was partially my attitude over the situation.

Okay, well, working Saturdays and I mean it had something to do from what I heard the story of, of expected to work a day for free to.

Help out the community.

Community. And like I, I get, I get some arrows slung at me because it's like, I say it all the time. It's like I understand the point about being a steward for the community. I get it. Yeah, we understand it. It's important thing. At the same time, I'm not going to. I don't like that word.

Whore myself out.

Yeah.

To that level. To try as a marketing ploy. That's all I'm going to say about it. I'm. I've never. Ton of Saturdays, but I've never been expected to go into work one for free. Not.

I'll give you the short version of it. Just so to clarify, because right now I don't want anyone to be like, oh, he wouldn't work for the community. I loved the day of service for Christian Brothers a lot. I still think it's awesome. Matter of fact, when we go to Mastering the Difference and I teach, I'm just there to teach I still help with their community service project. One year we helped build like 500 bicycles there. Like they get everyone that they're attending to build bicycles to give away. And then the next year we packed meals to go over to go overseas to troops.

And so I, I don't have to, I can be gone, but I do that. I enjoy those things. Yeah, but this was 16 weeks leading up to this was the, the slowest 16 weeks that store had ever seen and it kept cycling through front office staff. By design, a Christian Brothers franchisee is someone who has not been in the automotive industry. So they, so corporate or so headquarters can show them this is how the Christian Brothers way is supposed to work and you should follow these things and you're not induced by bad habits and things that you know as a, as a previous shop owner or technician you would normally be influenced by clean skill. So this guy that I worked for had sold was like a drug rep like for like Pfizer or something. Right. So totally different mindset.

So he didn't have the skill to step on the front counter and sell service and do that. And so he was constantly, I mean we cycled through 15 people in the front office as a manager and different people as just advisors for a while. Skin to where I was making about 22 to 25 hours a week flat rate. And the next closest person was getting about 10 less because I had more tools, more diagnostic equipment, more capability. And I told him, I said if I diag this car, I get the repair.

That's right.

I'm not going to diagnose this car and then give it over to him to get repaired because he's got less hours if he can't diagnose it. It's my job.

That's right.

And that's part of what flat rate does, is it puts me versus the guy in the bay next to me. There's only X amount of hours in the building. We have to split them some way. If there's always an abundance of hours capable, if there's always 10 cars lined up with work ready to go, flat rate works really well. Yeah, but that's not the case here. So I, I worked with that, that franchisee. I told him, I said, hey, I have 11 weeks of doing this many hours before I'm out of savings. Credit cards are completely racked up and I have no more money left.

So I'm going to start working, doing programming jobs with my equipment. Not yours, Tommy. My, my subscriptions, my equipment which I had, I brought with me. I Brought Nissan to that building. I brought Volkswagen to that building. I brought different capabilities to that store. So you didn't have to do it. And.

And I said, I'm going to go start doing those on the weekends and evenings for other shops. But I also was bringing jobs in because of that, so that we were getting other shops, bringing cars into the shop during the workday and then some in the afternoon. And I never broke that trust. I never, like, hey, wait till after this evening. And I charged more to come out in the evening than I did if he. If they brought it to the shop.

You didn't poach their customers?

Never. Not at all. And that was never. That was never even accused of me or nothing. So. So, I mean, that franchise, I just would be clear to everyone out there. I wasn't like double dipping here and tell them, no, no, wait, wait, wait. Anyways, we came to that day of service, and I said, tommy, I cannot come in on Saturday and work for free.

I have to go do at least $300 worth of work to make bills meet. We're at 16 weeks. My I'm going to be out of money was five weeks ago, and I've been doing enough on the side and stuff to keep head above water. And he was like, I understand. And I said, okay. So I did not come in Saturday. When I left that Friday, I said something to a technician. I said, man, I said, tommy, I got to go make money on this weekend.

I won't be here Saturday. If we keep up with this, I'm going to have to go find another place to work. That technician told the owner that, and the owner said that I quit. So. So Monday morning when I came in, he said, step into my office for a minute. He's like, I think we need to go another direction. And I'm thinking hourly. Yeah, right.

He's like, you should probably lock up your tools and try to go find another place today. So that was November 5, 2018. You're fired. And then I jumped in the mobile van or in my Nissan Titan through my diagnostic equipment, and when it went to every shop in town, walked in the front door and had to make the decision before a word came out of my mouth, do I want to get a job here or do I want to ask them if there's any cars they can't fix? And I never stepped into a place that I wanted to get a job. So it just kind of from there, took off. Yeah, that's how L1 started.

So that's amazing. And there's so much unprofessionalism to unwrap there. Right. When somebody says, you walk in and they go, I think we're gonna have to go somewhere, a different direction they're taking it. As you speak to a co worker and say if things don't change, I'm gon have to look for another job. And they think that is a resignation of like I'm quitting.

Yeah.

It's not a, it's not a notice that anybody that knows, you know, the professional way that you are, you would have gone to them and say look at, I'm going to give you my two weeks. Or you know, like I'm going to have to, can I work a couple days here and, and whatever. Yeah. So.

Oh, just I even have a, we have a, a policy at work now. If I let someone go and I've let one person go ever, if I let them go, I pay them an additional two weeks on top of everything else I owe them. Right. Right then and there. And it's because I asked that someone give me two weeks notice. Right. So if I'm going to fire someone unannounced, I'm going to give them two weeks of pay so they have that extra two weeks to go find another job of still having full salary paid. So here's what I owe you for what you've already worked, here's what I owe you for paid time off and any leave you have and then here's an additional two weeks of pay all at the same time.

I write a check for that when we let them go. I think it's only fair, I mean if, if you're going to let someone go immediately but you ask them to give you two weeks like what this got to give and take.

So what's, what I've always respected about you is you've always been somebody that's kind of ripen with me and saying that you have to invest in your own toolkit, in your own brain because like, you know, to back up a little bit, you're working on the Christian Brothers and you're already in possession of your own programming laptops, all that kind of stuff. Softw there, that's, that's benefiting the shop. But you're also pouring into yourself going like I need this stuff. This is what should be necessary. You know, if the shop's not going to buy, we can't offer it to the customers. I need somebody needs to step up and do it. I can relate to that in the same kind of way because I've been the guy that, at the dealership, you know, was stuck with trying to diagnose an off brand and go, well, I'll go buy a Red Brick then, like an old MT 2500. And then, oh, look, I'll go buy, you know, the Vantage.

I'll go buy, you know, a solace. I now own my own Zeus. And it's been frustrating sometimes because it's like, it's. Yeah, it's another bill at the end of the week when you, like, I've had those weeks where you're only making 25 hours and you're paying for tooling and you're. And you're like, what am I doing here? But you're pouring into yourself people. That's key. Right? Always invest in yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Zig Ziglar, right? Do more than what you're paid for and eventually be paid for more than what you do.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. So, Christian Brothers, you walk out of there, you, like, you said you went to some of these shops and not one shop did you see that you would want to work in as an employee. Can you kind of tell us what was, what's. What was a red flag for you that was like, hey, I'm not working there.

Dirty front office. The place wasn't. Didn't smell. Everyone was smoking inside. Everyone, you know, just unprofessionalism across the board. Right. Like you should. It should be like a dealership type environment.

I actually interviewed at the Mercedes dealer, and they were like, well, we're going to start you on R and R and blah. I was like, all right, that's cool. But. And you, you know, I get it. They don't, they don't know you from the next. Every guy that walks in the door to interview says, I'm God's gift to shop owners. Right. And it was just one of those things where I, I, I worked at.

At two or three of the good shops in Tulsa, and I burned the bridge in one. Fired from one, quit from the other ones. So it's just. Yeah, I'm the first one. I quit from the first. Like, I never anticipated quitting. The first CBA I worked for, I left because they had a technician that was ripping customers off, but because he flagged more hours than anybody, it didn't matter. So we pulled the report, and I said, look, for every diagnostic that I've done, I sold point nine parts.

For every Diagna he's done, he sold 3.1 parts.

Yeah.

Like, so he's getting cars that are more Broken than me or one of us is fixing it most efficiently. But a shop owner doesn't want to hear, this guy is making me more money and he's the problem. Yeah, it was more like, Keith, where's that three parts, 3.1 parts that you're missing for me.

Well, and. And my answer, because I was the same. I worked next to a guy that I saw some shady stuff go on, and it was never a situation that I went to them and said, hey, you need to turf that guy. But I'm like, just a. A hey, this is the reality, right? Like I'm fixing with a broken wire. He's putting the part on it. Plus he's selling, you know, all the early maintenance stuff that goes. And then when the car comes back, he's not there.

I'm there because he doesn't work Saturdays. He makes enough hours. I'm in on Saturday. I'm taking other guys Saturdays to come in to try and hit 40. And I fix it. And I'm like, this doesn't leak. You'd look at the history sheets and you're like, this didn't have a misfire code. It had a purge flow issue.

But we just told the customer that it was misfires and we stole the tune up and we sold fuel. So I went to them and I kind of said, like, I, you know, I. This is the real reality of what I. My numbers are down and his are up. Because it's always, you know what it's like, why is this guy hitting 50 and the rest of you hitting 30? You all are slackers. That's what the part I hate about the flat rate in this industry is because it's like, if you look at the 50, oftentimes, he's a hustler, sure. Or she. But if you're all kind of look about working at the same pace and yet they're doing that.

Why? It's because there's some overlap going on that they're getting full time for. And that's just if you want to look at the hour sold. If. If you talk about some other shops, like you said, they're putting parts on the profits going up. Well, I remember the, the. We were talking about our lovely caravans before we came on. I can remember when the. The running joke was when you sold an overhaul on the transmission or you had to do it under warranty.

You sold struts on it because you, like the overlap was huge. Right. You took a warranty training cradle. So you took a warranty training job that still was good. Right? Because they could all do them. They could have that on the bench 45 minutes and you obviously added six more hours to the job. Like it was incredible. Right? Like it was just so.

That being said, so that's where I always would look at and go, but do you mean to tell me everything that comes in with a shift complaint needs struts. Come on now. But it was just like they're like this, like they're, they're looking the other way.

You know, don't want to see it.

That's the frustrating part with me was the flat rate and shop owners. And you see me sometimes, like I get really aggressive with people about how they, you know, shop owners. But it's, it's. I don't see it. So I don't know, kind of excuse. And I hate that because, like, if you can read the numbers, you friggin well know what's happening. You're not. No.

Nobody out there is so naive. You can't sell me on that. That you don't know what's happening and how it's getting there. It's just getting there because somebody has got a little less ethical fortitude than somebody else. And that's the part of why I hate, hate flat rates anyway.

Yeah. I'll use it as a barometer when I interview technicians.

Yeah.

Like, hey, we. So we only do hourly here at our shop. And they're like, oh, yeah. And if they, if they're worried about that, I'm like, all right, so it's not 100. True. But I, I'm telling you that the vast majority of time, if a technician will not work hourly, it's because they only, they don't have the diagnostic ability to do that to make their worth. They have to sling parts, have to put struts on cars, have to do those things. I need people to do that for sure.

But that I have. All my guys are diagnostic guys. Also don't mind turning their brain off and slamming a set of struts out because it's less stressful than the three previous jobs they did.

Yeah.

So I don't, I don't know. I, I just don't. I don't have the work coming in at a pace like Zeb does to just say we can be flat rate. Because I don't have 10 trucks per technician all day long, every day, parts ready to go.

Yeah.

To be able to, to do that doesn't make. And if you don't either in your shop, you probably aren't doing flat Rate. Right.

Either Going back to what you were saying, where, like, there isn't another. An overabundance of hours. Like, I could tell you that my best days at the dealership, sometimes the good months, there was an overabundance of hours.

Yep.

But most of the time, we had my old analogy, too many pigs at the trough. Those hours would have been better split up with two less guys on the team, 100%. It would have been much easier. You would have had a lot more. But no, they never want that. Right. Because somebody coaches them and says, if that base sitting empty, you're losing money. And the reality is, if that base sitting money because there's no car outside to be putting in it, then yeah.

From a standpoint of how you want to do the numbers, are you losing money? Sure. But really you're not, you know, And. And can you boost your marketing or whatever to get. Sure you can, but the demand has to be there 100% before you put another tech. That bay.

Yeah.

Leave that bay for what it can be a waiter, you know, whatever, a water leak, test bait, stuff like that. The crap that, like, it's got to sit there and idle for four hours before it'll shut off randomly without, you know, anybody touching anything. That kind of bay. Don't think it's got to be turning an oil change, you know, and it's not making us any money. Stop that. So the early days of, you go in there and you just like, okay, I got a van, or I think it was a Nissan Titan, and I'm starting L1. Yeah. Go around, knock on doors.

Yeah. Walked into shops, and I would. I did it way too cheap. So please don't anyone take this in the beginning and run with it. But it was just me by myself. Nissan Titan got to make money. I told a shop owner I'd walk in and I'd look around, be like, okay, this is not a place I want to be, you know, permanently. They got a bad attitude.

I usually could tell when I drive up. I mean, when there's oil stains coming out of each bay, I'm just, eh. Nah, I'm no good. No good. Thank you.

Yeah.

So I walk in, I go, hey, you know, my name's Keith. I got a mobile company called L1 Automotive Diagnostics and Programming. And that's what we do, diagnostics and programming. And they're like, oh, we got a diet guy. Like, perfect. I'm glad you got a guy. I've got some tools and equipment. Your guy may have not even ever have Seen if you've got a car, do you got anything here that's just been a pain in anyone's rear? So I'll tell you what, I'll diagnose it for $80 no matter how long it takes me and if I'm not, and if I'm wrong, you don't have to pay me.

They're like, yeah, I'm like 100%. And so I started that way and I did that for almost, probably almost six months of doing that. And I lost my rear some days on some cars for three, four hours. If it was intermittent, I told them that doesn't really count, but you know, anything else and I made a lot of money that way. I did a lot of 5 and 10 minute diags. Now this is before I had all my processes in place. I was collecting cash and writing a ticket with, with Excel and printing it as a PDF and printing it off. Not my Titan, but a couple of months in I was, I mean I, it was quick and dirty.

Right. Not like I am today. Today my technician walks on the door and we've got a digital system that creates the job order for them. They walk in, when they get to the car, they start scanning the car, they take a picture of the dash, they do a pre scan, they get four corner pictures around the car. We get all his stuff and gather all this data. A lot of COVID your ass kind of stuff.

Yep.

And, but back then I was hammering them out and then when I'd go to collect, they're like, man, that was awesome, you know, thanks for coming out and fixing. I was like, no problem. Keep in mind introductory rate. Eventually I'm going to get you to where you can't work without me and then I'm going to jack the prices up. And then we both laugh and now only one of us is laughing. So it's a little different now, but.

You have the foresight to see that, like I've got to get that my name out there and I've got to build their reliance on me and show my value and show them to say, listen, don't spend four hours on this. I'm going to walk it out in 15 minutes, you know. And yeah, did you have a lot of pushback and people like, boy, you were on that 15 minutes and you want $80?

Not at 80 bucks, no, no, no. But at 400. Yes, yes. It's, it's a little different now.

Yeah, but what was the initial? What was the initial like? I guess what I want to say when you would get in there. And you would see because this is like I just spoke to Sean Tipping on Friday and I asked him, I said what is the kind of. What was the. What's. What are you seeing now? That's tripping. Still a lot of techs up. But what were you seeing back then, Keith?

Oh, it hasn't changed a whole lot. We've done hundreds of thousands over got to be half a million dollars in fuses now at this point over the last couple years. And I mean that without hyperbole. Number one, we did over $100,000 in fuses one year. We code it in shopware as repaired circuit easily. We put repaired circuit easily. Repair open circuit easily. That's code for I replace the fuse.

So if we find there's an open circuit at, you know, B470 circuit B479 inside of underhood junction box is a blown fuse, bro. But if you write replaced blown fuse, $300.

Yeah. You're ripping me off.

Yeah, I'm not ripping you off because we always get the call after they've put eighteen hundred dollars worth of parts on it and had two techs look at it for four days. Yeah, yeah.

So it's, it's the fundamentals are still lacking still 100.

Yeah. The reading service info. So I did a. I have a class now called Diagnostics beyond the Silver Bullet. It's really just our diagnostic process we use at the shop and when we, when I did that class, it's got a bunch of case studies in it and a couple of them are just like called out for a Durango for a what the customer says felt like the transmission slipping. They take it to a trans shop. Trans shop looks at it, says it's got a P0420. They did pressure test, looked at data.

Does a good trans shop. My area, I don't mind calling them out Lifetime transmission. They're fantastic. Transmission shop my area. Tiffany Shirato actually the co owner with her dad. She's the president or in charge of like amazing women auto care or women out of care. One of those two things with Mylan, really good friends with Mylan who just passed unfortunately. So she's local to me and she.

They're a customer of mine and I see we get to see each other at all the events. It's always fun. Well they said it's not in the trans. It's an engine concern and it's got a P0420. It might be the cat. We're not going to make that determination they called us out and so we go out and Wayne goes hey, it's got a P0420. Customer said it's got low power on acceleration and on the highway, just really on the highway is their main concern. They were concerned they were missing transmission gears or something.

They said it was thought it was slipping. I'm telling you it's not. The trans should be all good, figure it out. Cool. I jump in it do my pre scan. Yeah it's got a cat code but it also has a P06 Delta Delta for the engine. Oil pressure stuck off. So I go ahead and do it.

And in the class I go through the case study of P0420. Obviously that's our first go to go pull some O2 data. I can snap throttle it and tell you immediately it's not a clog cat. That's not the problem. Like okay, look at O2 data not a clog cat. Move on, go and read P06 Delta Delta. What the set criteria is and actions taken when it's set. Engines reduced to 3300 rpm is the.

Is the maximum RPM that on the highway is going to feel like for sure it doesn't want to accelerate. Yeah right. So that was. They missed the fundamentals. We just had an L5P Duramax in the shop for the like seventh time. I've got a case study from a year ago that I use in that same class of. And I get Isuzu, NPRs and in NRS all the diesels for these same problems where they get the car, it's got a DEF problem. They put a tank in it with a level sensor and.

And they always say the same thing. It had a DEF problem. We put a tank in it with a level sensor. And we didn't do the reductant module. But it's. All the codes are gone now. And we did two regens and we're thinking about doing a third one. But it's still got this D rate on the dash.

There's no codes. It just needs a tamper bay reductant reduction system. Tamper bay test a scan tool function. But because they don't go read the service info that says when you have this warning level one and no DTCs do this special function. They don't do it. So we make thousands of dollars a year off of getting a truck and looking at it, looking at the data, looking at the codes, looking at service info and charging a diag for that and saying okay, now it Needs this test. And I'm going to charge additional for this because it's like a regen. It can take up to an hour almost.

So it's going to be billed at full bore. So those are, Those are usually 800 to 1200 tickets on reading service info and press a button on the scan tool that they could have done themselves in their shop. Yeah, so it's the same stuff, man. It's not any different. It's the same things. And I used to have a lot more compassion in the beginning. And somebody would call me on the phone, hey, I got a Subaru and the park lights are stuck on. Like, hey, there's a switch on top of the dash.

Like reading the wiring diagram, you can see that it's in there.

So let me ask you, because I think this is kind of important, where did the compassion kind of start to go away for you? Because, I mean, I know where I lost a lot of mine. It was way back in the day when I was getting chewed down on and I said chewed down on hours under warranty and hours under at the dealership way back when. But you didn't seem to. You had that when you came in your business. But like, what was doing it for you? Like, where did the compassion start to go away?

Yeah, it was throughout doing mobile. And I would find the issue and be like, oh, I can see how maybe if they don't have service info or maybe, you know, because the technicians don't always, aren't always in charge of all of those things. Right. And I would grab the technician, go, hey, man, let me show you what I found. And then half of them were like, just fix it and put the bill up front. Okay. I remember going to a shop and I won't say their name because they're still a customer. And as, as the mobile company, they're a great customer.

We would go out, I went out to the shop and he's like, hey, I need you to come program this PCM on this Colorado car. Won't start. Okay. I was like, got the new PCM already in. Oh, it's a used one. Okay. Make sure you have all the keys there. Okay, cool.

So I go out to do it. I program the module, go to crank it, and I hear it. It's out of time. I can hear my ears. I look around the engine bay. New throttle body, new VVT, new O2 sensor, new EGR valve. All these new parts, brand new parts, never been ran. So I go in up front, I tell them, and I just Tell them at this point is the first time where I was, I lost some compassion.

I can remember at least. First time I can remember and someone's going to hate me for this and tell me I'm a jerk and that's fine. I walk in the front office, I tell them, hey, I got it programmed. It still just cranks and doesn't start. Is that what you replaced the PCM for? Yeah, it just cranked and didn't start. Like, well, theft. Lights out. VIN numbers correct.

Calibration IDs are all correct. That's all done. I think you might have missed the mark on this one. If you want I can diagnose it for you. I. I've got plenty of time today. I didn't looked at my watches. I got plenty of time today.

I can probably figure this one out. Looks like it might be a doozy by all the parts. What all have you guys done so far? Oh yeah, we put a throttle body, this, that, the other fuel pump, blah, blah, blah. Like it's not any of those. Like yeah, you could check fuel pressure and go, it's not a pump, right? So like, okay, I go out there, I do a relative compression, hook up the scope, do relative compression on it. I see it. I go ahead and pull plug, put some oil in in it just to see. I actually pulled off the dipstick four times and put it in the spark plug hole.

Put spark plug or put the compression tester back in, do another test. Same thing I did with this before I had a wps.

Yeah.

And so I was using Autel scope. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I made a video on this, like a live video on YouTube or something seven years ago. And I was like, yep, relative compression. Like it's out of time. Like I'm gonna go ahead and. And I can see spark to see spark to crank. Timing was incorrect. When I look at my second channel over my relative compression and it was like 70 degrees.

I was like way out like this. And it was a straight five, you know, Isuzu motor that's in the Colorado's. So I go and tell him up front, like, hey, this thing's out of time actually. And then he was like, oh man. Oh no. Okay, well we put a whole bunch in it. Blah, blah. What do I owe you? At the time, I think I built him 180 for that.

And then I said, hey, I've got a class coming up in two weeks. I'm doing at our shop. It's 150 bucks. You could send A guy, I teach this method at that class and he's like, okay. And it was the first time we ran an in person class at our shop. And I put together all these flyers selling it was 150 bucks to come for a whole day to do electrical diagnostics, which was actually like version one of the class I still teach today. It's greatly changed. It's like 24 versions.

It's changed a lot, as I've learned a lot, right? And I said, hey, we're going to do this class. I started giving them out as I was going to stops and then going around and giving them out to stops. And I really wasn't getting any anywhere with it. So I was like, I got like three signups for local guys. I was like, oh, man. So I posted on the Internet, sold it out in 25 minutes. Completely sold out all 25 seats for the building, opened it back up for the following Sunday. So I was like, I'll do the same class back to back two days in a row, Saturday and Sunday.

And then filled that up too. And then that, that shop did send one guy and the first thing out of his mouth is, I don't have that tool and they won't buy it for me.

Yeah.

He's like, I won't be able to do that. I'm like, oh, well, okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, I'm not here to sell you a tool either. So it was one of those things where after that I was like, all right. I've given them the opportunity to teach people. I've always brought text over. Now when I see a request come in.

Our form online gathers enough information. Half the time we already know what's wrong. We can look at ear, make, model, concern, what's been done, DTC and go. I bet it's this.

I don't tell you.

And rather than calling them and saying, hey, you should check this out. It depends upon the shop. Actually, there are a few shops I will call and go, hey, man, I think you missed this because they come to training. I see them at events, they're investing in their team. They're doing the right things. I will help them out. But the other ones I look at and I was like, yeah, all right. Zach, go out there, check.

He's like, I already know. Like, okay, cool. It's like, make sure you play on your phone for extra five minutes. They're gonna be pissed if you figure this out in 10 minutes.

Yeah.

And our diag is tiered based on what we use. So level one is Scan data analysis. Level two is I've got to do a pinpoint test with a multimeter or test light, and pin three is if I have to use a scope.

So let's back that up right there for people listening. Listen to what he just said there. His first diag level is not even doing anything really, other than looking at the scan data. So, like, when we talked about a couple of the classes or cases that I've seen posted in, you know, relative compression tests would have showed them some things and whatever, they didn't do it. A lot of people, A lot more people than people realize are their initial diag is just a scan and look at data, maybe do a little bit of research, and that's it. When the hood comes up and some pin probes come out, they're already charging more. That's already into the second hour. The second level.

The second tier, whatever you want to call it.

Yeah.

This is something we need to embrace a little bit more in this industry is because, like, you can every. You can get a code anywhere. You can get a code number anywhere. Go down to the parts store and get your code number. Right. The data and analysis, the critical thinking that the person, whether it's a professional behind the scan tool or whatever that's putting at the code is what you're paying for. That's step one. Then to go in and actually start to apply that process under the hood is.

Is step two. That's more cost, more time. When I think about some of the things that I went and diagnosed back in the day for 0.6, 36 minutes. And I figure now how when I'm starting to see people go, well, I'm just doing. Just like Keith said right now. I got screwed. We're screwing ourselves is my point. My point.

Anyway, so that's where your compassion kind of dwindled is because. And a lot of people probably did. Keith, did they say to you, you're nuts for going and trying to get students out of your people that are actually your customers? You know what I mean? Like, don't train your. Don't train your competition. Right. Don't train your people that you're relying on to. To make you money because they'll never have a need for you. And you and I have talked about that in the past, and you said there'll always be a need.

Yep. It's a different subset of people.

Yeah.

Czar. Not a motive. Another call at Tim. They gotta actually. They're trying to do social media a whole bunch. So go get on Their social media Z A R N guy's name is Neil Zarn. He was a adjunct instructor at a tech school when I first met him. But he owns the shop.

Owned a shop and he just moved to a bigger building. Amazing facility. I'm jealous. I'll tell you. I'm jealous of his facility. It's fantastic. He's been doing a lot longer than me. I'm close behind you, Neil.

I'm going to catch you. But he came to my programming class now. Hardly ever calls me for programming. Just calls me for weird Euro stuff and other stuff. He embraced it. Saw that you can't put a window switch in a Chevy truck without programming it right. Okay. If you're a shop 10 years from now and you're not doing programming, you're not even in business anymore.

It's not. You either got a mobile guy that's there every day and you are losing your ass on profit of getting programming done or I don't know what you're doing because maybe you've got a mobile, maybe you got a remote company that's doing the gravy work for them. But programming is going to be a day to day thing that happens in a repair shop.

Right.

Just in especially I say 10 years just to be careful. It's five really. I, we talk about it every day at shop. When the average year of a vehicle at the shops that we service turns to a 2016 and newer, our shops are in trouble. The local shops around me, they're in real trouble because they don't have any idea what's coming.

We've had to do two in the last month at my shop. One was a Nissan and I'm trying to think of what the second one was. But Nissan, because everybody knows Nissan in the aftermarket, right? Is kind of like, yeah, it's a disaster. Sucks to do. So we actually go on through, you know, Team Viewer right through Autel and do it that way. I can't remember what the other car was, but it was the same thing. It was, it was something that we were not tooled up for. And it's, it's so Keith's 100.

Right. You know, if you don't have easy access to it or you're not and that's the thing. Like we didn't make money per se on it. But we kept the customer really satisfied. The car is finally fixed. This is a car that's been the two other shops. You know it's a Nissan with a 101 code, right? Yeah, we know what the fix is PCM update. Yeah.

It's not a math. Right. But if you're not willing to go in there and do that for the customer, you might as well not be available to even scan the car. Right. Or if you scan it, don't charge it for it. Scan it real quick.

Go.

Yep. Here's your bulletin. I'm not gonna invest in the programming. Go back to the deal. We charge more than the dealer did. Because she was done going back to the dealer. She was done. She was had enough.

She was just like, you know, and they didn't. To be fair, people think that I had a vent solenoid circuit code on a Nissan three months ago and now I have my check engine light back on. It must be the same damn thing if you know the product or you know all of this. You know how many codes can turn the light on, Right. Like you have to have that communication with the customer. Just because three months ago you had a code doesn't mean they didn't fix it. This is a different system, different fault. Blah, blah, blah.

Get very used to that light being on if you drive certain things because it's going to turn on habitually because they just do, unfortunately, get used to, you know, you and I are going to see a lot of each other because we're going to be scanning your. Yeah.

So I, Yeah, I have that conversation with customers up front. We actually, part of our process is we'll check for if monitors are set when a vehicle comes in. And that way when it comes in and the monitors aren't set, two of them aren't set or whatever, we can tell them these two monitors were not set. When you're here, I explain what a monitor is, go through all that, blah, blah, blah. But the example I give a customer is that your vehicle doesn't check to see if your evap or catalyst system is operating correctly. If you have a misfire.

Yeah.

So if you bring the vehicle in for a misfire and I get done and fix the misfire, I suspect you may eventually have a catalyst or an evap code come back as the entire time you had that misfire, that system never went through and checked all that. I explained to them what the monitor is and how it works and give them a nice, you know, consumer version of that and that this is why that happens. And then we're looking at trying to make it to where a car doesn't leave until the monitors are set.

Yeah.

Just realistically.

And I saw, I saw a video from Eric. Oh, your friend, the Other day and he showed how like now his process has become. Every time he scans a car, he's scanning on generic and he's scanning it on, you know, the, the manufacturer side so that he's seeing the incomplete monitors on his autelom.

When did he come out with that?

I was a video I saw this past week now I think that's on it.

Before, I think I may have influenced that a little bit. I gave him our process and Eric and I talk often. You know, obviously he's a genius and he, he knows that all by himself. In no way did I but I think I may have pushed him. I pushed. I tell you what, he's closing Fridays now and that is me.

I so see. I like, I've been watching that dude for almost as long as I've been watching Paul. Right. And that. So everybody knows my history. Like the two of them kind of came along very similar at the same time.

Yeah.

Eric is one of the most humble people that I have ever had the pleasure of not talking to personally. Never met the guy. Wish I could love to sit down, have a conversation with him some point. But like he, the way he goes about how he conducts himself is like, oh shucks, I'm not all that smart. And you watch that guy and you're like genius guy is like next level. He's easily as good as anyone else that's out there. He's just.

Yes.

In his own little world, you know, his own corner of, of that state. And he, and he's doing what he feels is, is what he should do. I don't think him and I would align on a lot of things, business wise and all that kind of jazz, I think, you know, but I'm way more jaded than he will ever be. But I, I admire the heck out of the dude. He's just, he's somebody that. Like him and Ivan and Paul and yourself. And when they, when they post a video, I'm like, you know, like, I mean it's like my, it's my day, you know What I mean, is to see a new video from those guys. I've never stopped learning from people like them.

That's the incredible part of it.

So Dr. Eric often. So I kind of know what's coming out in a lot of the videos before they come out sometimes. But it's just because he'll call and say, have you ever seen this? Or he'll call and go, you're not going to believe this. What I found. He just told me about some relay and I hope I don't ruin it for somebody. There's a relay on some Hyundai that's got 287S. It's not an 87A.

Yes.

287S. And it fits the form factor of a regular one.

Yeah.

He called me and he was like, napa had it in stock. But he's like, somebody stuck the wrong one in there. And he was looking at the wiring diagram. My. My brain of Keith has done this a thousand times. Would probably just totally bypass actually looking at a simple relay diagram. I even teach that about the Bosch 30 and 87A getting switched on some of the BMW ones. And I talk about.

But I don't practice what I preach. I'm an idiot just like the rest of most of us especially it comes to programming. I go in and click all the buttons. And then when something doesn't work, I'm like, God, what was I supposed to do? And I am the read the service info guy.

Yeah. So I meant to ask you because I don't think it's ever really. You share it with me. But who's some of your big influences? Like not. I mean the. You talked about the family side of it, but when you were like, when you were studying and coming up, who were the guys that you were really like devout disciples of, I guess is.

How I would say. Yeah, Paul early on for sure. 100 really on the Internet side. But he was always showing foundational stuff and I feel like I picked that up pretty quick. But he was like some bias voltage stuff. I remember really specifically being like, oh, that's really interesting. I'm gonna go check that out. It was really.

So I had some great in person mentors. Peter Sarantitis, who now works for Todd Hayes or with Todd Hayes.

Okay.

He's their director of training or whatever. He was with CBA for a long time. Bob Augustine, who's now with iOS IX, which is a fleet management telematics company. But he was with Opus for a long time, before that with cba, before that with Bosch. If you go find your book that says how to use your tech two, it's got Bob Augustine standing on the front holding it. That's. That's the guy holding it. Dude with the white hair.

So Bob's had white hair forever. But he's. He's a guitar player like me. We hang out all the time at eti. We. He's a big surfer. So if you ever see him, you know he's into surfing. I am not.

I'm more of a Beached whale kind of guy. But so, so Bob was a big influence and Peter were a big influence. Like, hey, you've got to go to Vision. They were the ones told me I got to go to Vision. And I showed up. First year was like 2015, I think was my first year at Vision and I saw John Thornton and my very first class ever. John did an entire day two books. This stick, I got them at the shop sitting on my desk still of in cylinder pressure transducer.

And it's like engine mechanical testing with electronic tools.

Right.

So it's two massive books. I have yet to experience a class that had two books that big and worldpac actually hosted that one or sponsored that class. And John did eight hours on a Friday morning. I went to my hotel room and took a leave and went to bed after that class. I just, my brain was just reeling like I had never encountered some of those things. And if you go back and look some of my early YouTube videos before 2015, I was doing some of those things like trying to do relative compression. You could see I was using homemade tools with a hundred dollar hand tech scope on a US General cart that I made into my first diag cart. And because I was just, just coming off of Ietn and finding Facebook groups back then.

And that was. So it was those guys, a lot of the guys that are, that are students of mine now were kind of influential in the beginning. Hans Jorgensen was there always showing Techniques Telescope, all the scope, all the things, all of those guys that we like. Isaac was someone that was teaching me things. And these, these are all guys that I was learning from. So Eric, Isaac. I met Ivan for the first time in like 2018. Always have been learning from.

He's an absolute literal genius. I think the dude's got two masters.

Yeah.

Yeah. His dad's a nuclear physicist.

Well, you say yeah, like there's some.

Videos of him at his dad's facility. And you're like, this is. This dude's in a nuclear power plant right now. Like, yeah, so all those guys. So yeah, all I have all the same influences that you had.

Yeah. And I can remember you, you, you mentioned itn like, like so many of our people now that I love about Facebook. I can see their names on, on Facebook and I can remember they're from iitn. Like I. The first time I ever met Dutch, I walked up and shook his head and I said, I didn't talk to you when I first saw you. And he goes, why? Like. And I'm like, I remember seeing you in IATN all the time, but I said I was just lurking. I had nothing to say at all.

The same.

And you know, any post for me, yeah, Matt Fonzel is the same thing. Like all these people were standouts, you know, like we're in IHTN and it was just like I was just working. I never had nothing to say. I was just trying to learn. I'd hang out in the tech section, but you can remember in the old headings and it would always be this name would be up there talking about this subject and this name and this name. So I'd see Dutch all the time. We're so blessed now that this Facebook has brought us to where it's not. It's instantaneous, you know, I mean, Dutch says something and it's like, oh, you get a notification on your phone.

Like that's gonna make my day to hear what he has to say about this. Like, we're so lucky. Talk to me about. Because we kind of, before we got on the air, we got it talking about. I and a lot of other people probably think like that you just solved nightmare car after nightmare car all day long. And that's a big part of it. But you also run into some of the same type of customers that all of us get. Right.

Like you mentioned a young lady, Deidre's van, right?

Yeah. So I. So our company has the mobile division L1 automotive diagnostics programming and then we have level one automotive that does oil changes and tires and alignments and water pumps and suspension repairs. And I mean we just did leaf spring bushings on a 2010 Toyota Tacoma. And you know, it's. We do regular stuff. Well, so we had this young lady bring a van. It started as one of those nightmares that had been it everywhere.

It was a 2010 Caravan 3.8 with a six speed comes in. It was a 62T I think is what 2010 had. So comes in and she goes, I bought the car three years ago for seven grand cash. I drove it for a year. It stopped running, wouldn't start. So it set for a couple years. I got some tax money and then I took it to this shop. And this is a single mom with like four kids who, who's like a preschool teacher too or.

So every time I talk to her there's like she told me there's 10 kids in the room. Hold on. So she after school program or something watches kids also. And she. So she drops the car off and says, we've had it at two Shops they've replaced these modules and it still wouldn't start. And it was like a tip and an engine control module and a wind module. And she's got like three sets of keys and all this. And then I had somebody come out and.

And he was a crackhead. And that's what she said. This is her word. She's like he was a crackhead. He did the. He said the intake gaskets were the problem in this. And he said this connector was bad. So they wired around it.

So there's like a four pin trailer connector around one of the engine in line connectors and all this stuff and it won't start. So we get out to it. No crank theft, lights on. Scan it Widetech. There's four different VINs and all these modules. There's a pile of modules in the back seat. So we kind of sift through and find the ones with no paint on it, put it back to the original modules, put them all in, scan the car, find out the donor PCM and the PCM that was in the car were both no comm so it need. So they put a bad PCM in place of a bad PCM or something happened or maybe during some kind of testing someone damaged it.

Who knows. Power probes are dangerous in the ignorance of some others. So great tool but when you press that button you better be ready to know where that those pissed off pixies are going.

Otherwise for sure.

Yeah. So I got one on the shelf. So I stock about 450 modules. I go pull a NGC control off the shelf. It's got the right number. I bench flash the software to be correct because it was for something else. It was like for a 33 van. So I flashed to 3.8 calibration it was correct for the vehicle.

Got the VIN in it. Did the Immobile. I had to change the VIN in the wind module because somehow somebody got the wind changed in the current. The original VIN was the same as their car which is weird because most of the time they only store one VIN wins aren't supposed to have multiple capabilities. And I had to do the same thing with the tip them had to restore the tip, use ECU villain on that. Got the tip them back to virgin to where I could reuse that tip because once they store two they won't go back. Well it had two other VINs in it so I have no idea where the original tip is. Part numbers correct.

Got all together anyway. Starts, runs and drives like cool. All we did was put a PCM in it and corrected some software. I mean, it was expensive. I say all we did, we did things that were undoable. We saved her. I mean, had, had we bought brand new modules, it would have been six, six thousand dollars, you know, so we were able to do that for I think like 1500 bucks or something. The whole entire gig, right? So she leaves.

We did an inspection on the vehicle like we always do. Any vehicle that's owned by a person gets a vehicle inspection. If it's a shop, they're on their own. Sorry. Let's say are like a used car lot and they drop it off and want an inspection. So do a DVI on it. Of course there's a bunch of writes up. I tell the drill on the phone.

I said, hey, and I'm obscuring her name. Deidre is a different customer with a. With a priest. But I currently have this van still. So we're not going to talk about it until we're done figure out what's going on. So I get the. Get it all done. Tell her, hey, we did not drive this car a whole lot.

We got it running and it has this leak. And this leak, there's some problems. You said you're done financially with this, you're ready to come pick it up. I said, so just so you know, what we found, the inspections, what we could see. When you go drive this, you're going to find other problems. A car that's set three years are going to find. She said, oh, I totally understand. And she did.

She takes the car. That was about eight months ago. Car comes back and now it's had a transmission put in it, a reman unit. It's had a plethora of parts which she self admitted to us. She bought them all on Amazon. It's on its third thermostat. It's leaking coolant out of multiple places. One of the bolts in the bell housing was loose.

The O2 sensor wiring was underneath the shift cable. So it was rubbing on the trans housing. Some other coolant hoses were cracked, ready to pop. So we wrote all of it up and like, hey, this is where it's at. This is. You brought it in for the lightning bolt on the dash and having low throttle. And that's due to this engine coolant, temperature sensor, high circuit code. It's intermittently coming in and out.

What we found on the dvi, that's an immediate concern, isn't actually that problem right now. But that will 100% have to be fixed after we fit. We can't even drive the car to replicate it. It's. It's like literally pouring coolant out of the car.

Yeah.

And so she's like, okay. So I fixed the bolt and the wiring harness routing for free because I called the. The shop to put the trans in is a customer of ours also. So I called him and said, hey, I'm gonna. And I don't think she'll ever find this video. So she won't know. But the customer. But I was like, hey, xx shop.

I found this on an inspection. We gave it to the customer. We didn't know you did the transmission. We didn't mean to throw you under the bus. I know she's already called you. I want you to know that I'm going to fix it and I'm going to tell her you guys wanted to take care of it. You guys were really pushing me to fix it and you would take care of it. I'm going to cover it for you.

I want this, this relationship between you and that customer to be mended. And she's like, they were like, okay, great, thanks. You know, so I do that. I do. I told Zach like, hey, we tighten that bolt up, I'm going to reroute this harness. He ended up doing both. So anyways, that's. It's currently at shop and she approved that stuff.

So now I'm doing intake gaskets. But when I call her to tell her all these things about what's on the dvi, she starts crying. So I've got for an hour she's crying on the phone. She's getting emotional. I mean, I get it. She's told me she spent seven grand on this car since she's started working on it. So now we have seven grand. We purchased it.

Seven grand we put into it in four years in a 2010 grand caravan that's, you know, unfortunately pretty rough inside with that many kids in it. You can, you can see it. I'm sure all of us can kind of imagine what it looks like inside. And all these parts she's put on that, she's unfortunately wasted money. Somebody else did intake gaskets and they're pouring coolant into the cylinders, causing a misfire currently. It's just, it's, it's rough. And I had to go through the whole thing with her. I had to explain to her that it's the misfires on cold start and there's coolant in the cylinders.

So we were concerned because it had been overheated. We know it has leaking that much Coolant and having three thermostats put in it that there could be a head gasket problem. So we did a chemical test with the color changing fluid, and then we also used our 5 gas to check for hydrocarbons in the cooling system. And both of those passed under multiple conditions with the thermostat open. Went through the whole gig. We're pretty confident doesn't have blown head gaskets. But I still had to tell her, like, here's the deal. 99% of time, when we see any car that has coolant in the cylinders, it's a head gasket.

Your car has an intake manifold gasket that is leaking into it, but it's been overheated. So I have to tell you, there's a percentage possibility that it also has blown head gaskets.

Yeah.

And then so she starts crying again and we got to talk about. She's like, well, what do I do? Do I fix this car? Do I go get a different one? And I'm like, I can't make that decision for you. Because if I tell you to fix the known problems, that's. That's always better. Is the known concern. Right. That the lesser of two evils is the devil that I know. But that's not true.

Like, she might fix that. And then it needs head gaskets and then it needs whatever. And then who knows, you know, it's a caravan. I'm sure it needs sway bar frame bushings and struts like you said.

Yeah.

I don't even know if it has new struts. I'm gonna go back and check on it because they just put a trans in it, so they probably need an.

Evap for the AC system. Like, I mean, you know, who knows how long that rematch.

I couldn't check the AC when it came in because the ambient air temperature sensor was ripped off of it because the bumper was missing.

Yeah. So because you and I. I mean, and people that follow you kind of know the whole thing that went on with the customer with the used car lot and the ABS or airbags. Excuse me. And all that kind of stuff. And then I was just listening to you talk about this thing with the transmission. And I'm on the fence still. And.

And it can flip from day to day about whether I throw another shop under the bus or not. Because for the longest time I used to say if I had a shop, I'd have a bragging board and it would show literally, like what they up, what they misdiagnosed and I'd put the name on the whole thing. Go. Because this is why you're here. Is because this person, this person, this person didn't do their job. What. What does it determine for you that you'll help, you know, or. You know what? I mean, like, you're going to do solid for that.

That transmission shop. But then that car lot guy and now. And I think it's probably because of the situation of safety.

Yeah. But yeah. And that it was done on purpose. Right. In an effort to conceal it.

Yeah.

You miss a bolt dude's flat rate to put it in, guarantee you there was no incentive for him to go back and check all of the bolts.

Yeah.

All day long. I'm telling. I'm telling you. I'll give you another super quick example of that. I'm in a shop group because I have a. I have a coach, Rick White. Liz. Liz and him interact a bunch.

I just kind of stand in the back corner and. And usually go, yeah, because that's what I already said. But now, now we're paying someone to tell us. And I agree with it. And. And Rick's smart. And Rick's got a lot of great stuff, too, that I, you know, I didn't know. So he's helping us a ton.

But I'm in a group with them, and one of the other shop owners said, hey, I'm. I'm pulling technicians into interview, and my other technicians are getting nervous and they're getting upset. And I said, yeah, you're pulling in a guy and you take all of their hours and you cut them evenly and you give it to the other guy. Right. Are you. Are you at an abundance of work where everyone will keep exactly the same hours? And he was like, no. And I was like, good, you brought someone in who's threatening their money in their paycheck. I said, when I bring a technician in, all my guys are hourly.

They're like, yeah, more help. We got another guy on the team. Team to help. That's. That's literally. My guys are stoked. Like, they interview them, too. I say, hey.

So I send the. I send the guy that we interview out to hang out in the shop for 40 minutes. I said, go talk to all the guys. I gave you my spiel. Go ask them what I lied about. Go tell them what I made up. What I don't hold to the things that I said to go find out what's not true or what I see is one way and they see as another that they haven't said anything to Me, Keith.

Keith thinks he's buying great pizza and the pizza's terrible.

Yeah, exactly. Pizza is not allowed. I'm pissed right now. There's a box of pizza in our fridge, and it's because Josh went and got it for lunch one day on his own. It's crap. There's no pizza in my building. We got pizza one time, and it was either going to be Andolini's or Savistano's. Only two good pizza places in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Everything else is chain restaurant stuff. I just made somebody upset because they're like, oh, my brother owns a fire pizza place. There's actually a fire pizza place here in town. It's really good. Called Bulldog Pizza. I live in a small town called Sky Took. It's got like 8, 000 people. So that's.

So people that are listening, though, when he thinks about it, just think about that little bit of attitude there where it's like somebody when he says, I'm bringing on another person, and they immediately go right on. More help. Right. I have been in that shop where as soon as I see a technician walk in to do an interview, and we know what they all look like, right. They're wearing a snap and they're not in the uniform, and they walked out of the manager's office like it's. It's like a. It's like a gunslinger walking into the old west, you know, immediately target on his back. What's.

We don't have enough work? We're standing around here with our thumbs in our pockets. Right.

Cornhole. Yeah.

And there's another guy coming in. What the hell? So then you start taking. Who's getting fired? Right. Or. Or what? What are they going to feed this guy? Because that's how it all goes. Keith touched on a very key thing here where it's like when you take away some of that incentivized. I don't want to call it nonsense, but take it away. Everybody starts to see each other as a team member instead of as a threat.

It's a key, key element for what I'm trying to. My own culture, what I'm trying to share. You touched on Rick White, and you got me thinking about coaching and stuff like this. And I can remember sitting with you and Liz at that same breakfast meeting, and she had a rather. She'd had an interesting class the day before.

Yeah.

And I did not know Liz that well, and I still don't know Liz. And I'd love to have Liz on at some point, too, because I Mean, there's, we have to share what a treasure she is to, to the other females with an industry. Right. Because I mean, she's just a rock star, but she kind of came out of there. Right. Being told what you do and what she does, what you guys do as a business wouldn't work.

Yeah.

Or it can't possibly work. And we're not naming names here, but the people within our circles will know who we're talking about. What do you think about their methods?

It's the same as all the other ones. The methods that they were being, they're. They're teaching. Is Flat Rate that same individual? I've got a screenshot. I'll show you, I'll show you where he was talking to one of my other techniques. Who he doesn't know. He doesn't know who we are, by the way.

Right.

He is 100. He, he, he's so far up there in his own thing that he doesn't know who he did that to or that he said that to. He doesn't remember it. He disagrees that it happened when I said it to him. He doesn't know who I am, what I do. And he didn't know anything about me because I made a friendly challenge to him.

Yeah.

On, on, on a group. But he, he was saying the same things others are saying, which is Flat Rate. And then the thing that he posted is he even said himself that Flat Rate is a tool that's used by people who are not good leaders. And that's why he typically has all of his people that are under his cult that do Flat Rate because they're not that great of leaders. And that's a good management tool for people that aren't great leaders. I, I have the screenshot of him saying that himself. So like, there you go. The guy who's saying Flat Rate's the way to go tells you why.

Yes, because the people that I get on as my customers, the people that I'm selling the prophecy to, are not good. A leader.

Yeah.

Powerful stuff. When you mentioned the challenge, I saw you put up a challenge a couple weeks ago in one of the groups where you talked about your, you would send one of your guys in three different cars, whatever. Did anything become of that? And can you kind of share what it was about if you can remember? I'm having a hard time.

I remember all of it, unfortunately. I have an eidetic memory, so I remember everything. So, so an individual. I'll leave all names out, but it's on, it's on public in a. In it. But it's in a private Facebook group. So if you're on the auto shop owners hangout group you can good luck searching through all of that to find it. One of my technicians posted a meme.

Jeff. Jeff has got the best memes in the world. My Jeff, not Jeff Compton here. Jeff Barnes got the best memes in the world. He posted one that was rather vulgar, which I love. He asked me if it was too much and I said absolutely not. Put it on there. It's the weekend we're allowed to do memes.

So just so everyone knows Jeff Barnes who does makes those memes, he's typically on the clock hourly doing that because I've asked him if he'll make funny memes. So he is paid by the hour to do memes and all the other things that he does. So he posted that and somebody said that they would argue his terms that he uses. I would argue that we'd find better technical talent in a flat rate shop than in an hourly shop. And I said by and large, I don't know what the, what the average would be. I said, but I bet and I would argue that I'll take you up on that. What we'll do is we'll take your best two guys and my best two guys and we'll do two diags and two mechanical repair jobs and we'll compare them and it's timed. Both of them are.

So this is on the flat rate system. They're both timed, the diag and the mechanical repair. The diag is judged on did they diagnose the car correctly with actual proof so that they have something they can articulate in why it failed or how it's failed and that's timed. And then the mechanical repair will be judged against OEM specifications. I said now you have to use your shop resources and I'll use my shop resources. A flat rate shop versus a whatever. Now you had. Now this individual had four locations.

That's a very high end shop in Houston in a very populated area. And I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma with one building and a couple vans. So my total just complete clarify everything there. He does around 6 to 7 million dollars a year and I do just over a million. Okay, so that's to compare apples to apples. When someone goes, well you've got all this other. He has way more capability financially to have the same things that I have. So there is no deficit there.

More people.

Way more, way more people. So he told me he has the best Audi tech in the country that literally won the Audi's thing. I said, perfect. I said, you got the best tech, Audi tech in the country. Surely two of your guys will be at Vision at the premier training event. I said, my whole shop closes and goes there. I said, I know that I can find a shop in that area that will have two cars that are really broken, that really need work, and it'll be the same cars. So no funny business.

No, I don't get to pick them. You can decide. I said, we'll do a friendly thousand dollar wager. And then, and then I said, to the charity of your choice, if you want or, you know, whatever. And he backed down, said he doesn't have anything to prove to me. And that. And then I said, well, you said you would argue though. And I'm arguing.

And so I said, I tell you what. And you know, kind of back and forth and I'm pretty, I'm, I'm button pushy, you know, I, I won't argue unless I know I'm going to win. I just, if we're going to get in a disagreement with, if I'm going to get a disagreement with somebody, I have enough information that I'm going to win. Now, this is a risk, right? I could risk this and lose, and that's fine. I would be like, hey, you're individually, your technicians are better than the two technicians I brought between these two jobs. The reality of the situation is, is the moment that his tech got done, I would still stand there and go, it's not done. And I'd let him figure out for the next two and a half hours that he didn't use a torque wrench on two bolts over there. Because my text pull out a torque wrench and torque every single bolt, regardless of how ridiculous it is.

Because they're paid by the hour to do that. That. And that is. Josh is my guy that I have. That's that he torqued a bolt on a bracket off of an exhaust hanger to hold the O2 sensor wire because there's a torque spec for it. So he did it and read it and that's his job.

Yeah.

And because of that, I have zero comebacks from Josh. Had zero comebacks from Josh. Yeah, I've had comebacks, but not from any mechanical work Josh has done.

And that was the amazing thing when you and I sat down, when we did the conference at Astronomy, we had Zeb on stage and Andrew Fisher and, you know, and we're all, we're talking, I asked you, I said, well, how do you deal with. With comebacks? And you kind of looked at me like, I don't really have them. Like, I mean, we have a process in place, but we don't really have. And everybody.

We get comebacks.

Yeah. But not like, you know, not the way I think all of us are normally dealing with them.

And I get them where we missed the mark. Like, we put. We put control, lower control arms on a 2010 Tacoma that ended up being shackle bushes bushings. We could see the control arm marks moving and stuff. So we just put shackle bushings on it for free for the guy.

Yeah.

He paid for $6,000 worth of other stuff already that he approved. That was done. I just took care of it. I just, I don't have to. I don't have to have that discussion that the rest of guys had about, okay, how are we going to flag this? And did it. Like everyone. He's just paid hourly. I'm not going to tell Josh, Josh, clock your ass out and do those bushings.

That's right.

That's not what happens at any other job either. So just like with Flat Rate, it shouldn't be like that either. It's not. Do that job for free. Like negative.

I don't know.

Can't make me work for free.

The post where somebody said, how do I pay these two techs? Where I had one tech that was supposed to put a module. It was popped up this morning or yesterday. Supposed to put a module in. And after five hours they stopped. They couldn't get the module to program. Or somebody else. Tech 2 comes over. I'd ask them and end up being the module was on a Mercedes like an 09.

The module's underneath the seat full of water. Right. For whatever. They were trying to put an emulator for the shift. I want to say the ignition steering lock. Yeah. And they couldn't. And blah, blah, blah.

How do I pay the. And I'm like, well, you pay both of them. But then it sounds like because. But yet apparently tech A was the tech that liked to do electrical but couldn't get the job done. Tech B doesn't like to do electrical but could get the job done. And I kept saying, you dispatched to the wrong tech. There's just. And then you ask the other questions like, so what did you tell tech B would get paid when tech A threw the hands up? Because obviously if that text straight time, they don't throw their hands up, they just go in and find a problem.

I imagine probably there was so many such time Was donated or donated, delegated, and say, you should have this programmed, you know, diagnosed, whatever, within this period of time. When they didn't, he said, I'm done, throw up my hands. Beats me, don't pay me nothing. You know, whatever.

He wants to get on to the next job that does pay.

So what is tech B told this job's going to pay? That was my question. I got no answer.

Yeah, I got no answer either. I, I wouldn't ever be in that position because I just pay everyone hourly because I know better.

This is the kind of stuff that stresses me, Keith, because it's like when you ask people a straight up question, they will not answer it. That drives me crazy. Because I'm not about saying that you can't make this pay system work or you can't make that pay system work. But it's going to go back to why most of the time it doesn't work. Is old scenarios that we have that are not a proponent of it have been through. It's been done to us. This is why we don't like it, you know, because it's been like, I, I have been that guy where it's been like, hey, you got an hour to diagnosis. And I go, I can't do that in an hour.

And they go, well, why not? Well, because I, you know, my, my initial scan has shown me that it's like I have the bias voltage on all four oxygen sensors. So I know that the ground is open, but I can't go in and figure out where the ground is open within 36 minutes. Well, that's all you're going to get. Okay, I ain't gonna do it. Then they go and get the next guy and they go, just go over there and fix that car. I'll pay you whatever it takes.

That's why I'm gonna punch him in the throat if I hear that.

Yeah, that's why that pay system is. When I say it's been weaponized against people forever, I'm, I'm legit telling the truth. It's been literally weaponized. And it's, I'm not saying you can't make it work, but to say that it's fair. It ain't fair. It's not fair. The most ruthless tech will always be the most successful at it because you have to be ruthless to be successful.

And I was that guy. I was that tech and. But it still was bullshit. It still sucked. I still didn't get paid for the jobs I was doing. I, I have a clicker in my front office that comes from another that I have and I have that clicker because I had another tech that was. This tech is 20 years older than me. It's currently in jail.

I'm not going to talk about why, but he's currently in jail. We worked together. He worked at a big tire lube chain. Like real big tire suspension chain. Like that's their, that's their bread and butter every day. It's in their name. But it's a local chain and they're customers of ours. And he worked there 16 years and this guy was flagging like his deal was he got like 40% of margin off of each ticket period.

So dude made six figures slamming parts. He was in great shape. But at, in his, in his 50s he decided I'm going to do something to tease her on my body. So he bought the Zeus diag cart and came to Christian Brothers and said I bought the Diag cart. Now I'm a diag tech with no real skills for that.

Yeah.

And told, told the owner I got $100,000 tools. And he did. He has one of the biggest toolboxes I've ever seen in my life. If Snap on sold it, he had it. Hey, we just came out with this new relay tester. Give me one. And like you could do that with a test light bro, if you know how it works. But he wanted, he was by the, by the thing.

So he came in, he was a new diet tech. He actually got paid more than I did at the time. Flat rate hours. And every time he get a diag job. So he would come into my bay and ask me once he realized like oh, Keith's good at diag. So I bought the clicker every time he came and asked me a question. And we got to 51 questions in one day. And I showed him, he was like what the hell's the clicker about? And I said that's for every time you walk into my bay and ask me a question.

I said how about we go to 2/10 per click per day that you give up and give to me. And that made him mad. Anyways, I left, started my thing. He recently came around to me and was wanted a job and, and now things have gone real south and now he's in jail and you know, great mechanical tech never grasped, always argued with me. He didn't need to know how it worked in order to fix it. And you know, now look where that got him. So but that I have that clicker in the front office today now Today it has a different use. Liz clicks it every time I make an innuendo.

And so it hits 50 pretty often. If we had an HR department, I would be fired immediately.

You probably can't. Yeah. What is. So let me ask you.

I'll answer your question real quick, though. You pay them both.

Yeah, 100. That's what I said. You pay them both or else cut the mustard right then and there and you cut bait and let one go. Otherwise, the right thing to do is you pay them both and you look at your process and fix the process.

Yep.

Most impressive technician you've ever seen. It's tough, isn't it?

Yeah. So I. I'm gonna say Josh, our young guy at Shop and the other guys. The Shop will agree. Josh's early 20s. He worked with Zach 2.

Okay.

So they both went to OSU, Oklahoma State University, the protech program. It's a. You leave with a. With an associate's degree and a technical school certificate. Both. Because it's both. It's a. Oklahoma State University, OSU Cowboys.

You know, that's one of our. I'm a Sooners fan in Oklahoma for college football guys. But OSU is the other school that's here. One of the other schools. We actually have TU also. But that was their. They went to the pro tech program. Zach1 went to the same school almost at the same time for the Ford.

Ford. What is it? Asset? Yeah, I think it's Assets Ford program. So three of my techs are OSU IT graduates and Josh is by far the youngest. He's early. Early 20s. And when he came on, he said he was worried he wasn't going to be good enough because he'd been mostly doing mechanical stuff. Real young guy. And we brought him in.

Do mechanical work.

Yeah.

And then quickly realized that he is significantly smarter and has amazing critical thinking skills. And all of us have said he's the dark horse. He's the one that people. He's quiet, he's unassuming. He does mostly mechanical work, but I can give him any diag. And he figured when we get stuck on something, we put Josh on it because he's the fresh set of eyes that's got a really good critical thinking mindset to. Just when he's my age, in 15 years, he will be a better tech than I will ever. He will be a better tech in 10 years than I will ever be in my entire career.

When it comes to like a technically smart diagnostician technician. Yeah, by far. If he stays on this. He did tell me that if he leaves, if he ever has to leave working for me, he's going to work for the military industrial complex and getting out of the industry. He's worked a bunch of shops and says it's all trash.

And see who was I speaking with? I can't remember at this moment. And they were saying the same thing, like, and they were. Because I talked to some pretty established people that work for some good shops and they're like, I may still go to H Vac when this is done, you know, because. Oh, that's. Yeah, you and I will talk about it after it. You said that. Because it just. You can't make it work.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like he's looking at it and it's going, I. And we're talking somebody that's one of the standards, one of the exceptional people within our industry. He's like, it just doesn't seem to make sense. I can go to H Vac and understand all of this in my head and be able to apply it and make more money and, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Zach 2 is leaving us actually, and he's not leaving for H Vac. He's actually going to a fleet shop for Oklahoma Natural Gas so they can give him the world and the moon and I can't because I can't make it work yet.

Yeah. And so that's. How do we stop that, Keith? Because I mean, we keep talking about how we're losing our best and even when we do everything culturally wise, the financials is just not there yet.

I'm. I'm missing. So where I'm deficiting is I can't pay for a really good family plan a hundred percent for him yet. I also can't at the same time. So he's going to get, and I hope he doesn't get. He's not gonna go to me for this. So he gets 100% health insurance paid for his family with a pretty good plan. He gets 30 days paid maternity leave because he's trying to have a kid.

Pretty soon he's in. That's their goal. He gets 200 hours of paid time off. He gets a 401k, a 6% match and then they give a quarterly dividend. His brother works there and it's about 1,000 to $1,500 every quarter of just a dividends check from the, the 401k, the company. So as the, as the, as our world's. What's. I forget the word.

Anyways, when the stock market goes up Here when as our, as our stock market here in the US goes up, he's going to make even more and more off that and I currently don't have enough business to do that now. They offered him less money. He's going to have to work Fridays. He loses his company vehicle and fuel and company phone. But the medical insurance thing alone. Yeah is, is something I, we, we looked internally said what can we do to try to match this? And the worst thing is, is if I could have matched that, if I could like if financially I was capable of, of doing all those things, I would have already done them. Yeah, that's been on the books, we've been talking about it for two years that eventually technicians at L1 are going to have 100% family paid health insurance and a 401k that we're going to match. That's only going to have like a five year vesting period.

We're going to have the 30 day paternity leave thing is going to be pretty easy. We can do without a person for 30 days and pay their payroll. It's not really that big a deal. But it's the rest of those things. Compounding on top of that the health insurance is going to cost me fifteen hundred dollars a month per per employee extra. And I don't take. Keith doesn't have a boat. Keith doesn't have, you know what I mean, I don't have those.

I pay my, for those that wonder. I pay myself $60,000 a year. I make less than 2 of my technicians. Now Liz also makes the same money. So as a Household we make 120 in Oklahoma and in Oklahoma that is a lot of money. For perspective, my five and a half acres of land, 2,500 square foot house and I have a 30,000 gallon pool by the way that came with the house. Huge. 30, 35 foot by 70 foot wide, 10 foot deep.

285 is what I paid for my property and comparatively to the rest of the US that is. I just had a student At a class two weeks ago, Connor, who has a condo in Esopedo, Florida. It was 717 square foot, was $495,000.

Yeah.

I was like we could rent out half your condo and buy a plate and buy my place here.

It's nuts, isn't it? So people, when, when we talk about the struggles that the industry is having, I think it's important and I'm not, you know that, that we remember that even somebody with Keith that I've got to say is Doing more right than wrong. Got a lot of it figured out. He's still facing the same obstacles that, that all of us are right. So, you know, don't. Don't feel like you can never get there, but understand that the goal every day is to still figure out how to get there. You know, you can't just throw your hands up and go, it's never going to happen for us as an industry or us as a business. It can happen. It's just, why can't we charge as much as we want to in this industry still? Because there's too many people out there that are doing it for, like I said, whoring themselves out, doing it for way too cheap, not doing it right.

That's the thing that pisses me off. And it's like, I get on people. I got on somebody today because it's like, you know what? If you'd have just done a relative compression test instead of yanking all the coils and plugs out of the car, disturbing the coils, and now the car leaves down the road with a misfire. And you say, like, you're mad at yourself because you don't have known good coils on your shelf that you can put on to make this customer go away so they don't give you a negative Google review. And I'm going, what the heck is wrong with a relative compression test? And here's the other thing. All this DVI in this diag done on this car, they did nothing. They didn't repair anything. So we made the car worse and they left.

And if you'd have vetted the customer a little bit better, you probably would have not made it worse. But somebody's coached you into doing this. So. And I'm not, Listen, I'm not trying to say you never have to do a compression test again the old way. I'm not saying that. That's not what I'm saying. But if we could have come along and done a quick test and went, there's a mechanical problem here. The customer can then go, okay, done.

I don't, I don't need to. I don't need to go further into the diag. I now got to go down and get this thing waxed up and trade it. You know, the other somebody talked about a 4, 7 and a Durango or something like that misfire thing. Same thing. We did all the coils and plugs up. Now, I'll tell you right now, I worked on a ton of those. Coils are not a big failure item.

So if you were to ever come to me and say, we're gonna do all eight plugs and all eight, or even might have maybe the four seven is that twin plug version and we're gonna do the whole ignition thing. I just said, no, we're gonna do the plug. The coils that are bad. Because the boots were not a common thing. The coils were not a super common thing. Did I change them? Yeah, but they weren't super common.

Could have pulled the valve cover and saw the. The rocker arm that came off for the cost of what the coils were physically. Not even testing. Just pulling stuff apart and looking at it.

And they still left. They still left. It had a hard misfire fault.

Yeah.

It's got a mechanical. No. No kidding. No friggin kidding.

Yeah.

We. We wouldn't have made that car worse. So that's my point. When I'm. When I get on people, it's like I'm. And you think I'm running you down. I'm not. But I'm challenging you to like take some of the training that Keith and other people are great people in industry have out there.

Learn to do this better. Learn to do it better so that we don't make the soup worse. Because even, even if you go and find two coils, you put that in your car for that customer and they leave and the car's fixed, that money would have been better kept in your business instead of giving it to somebody that doesn't appreciate it. And we didn't fix the image that the industry has by. We still look like we mucked around, made it worse and they had to come back and we had to fix it. That's the big thing here. People that we're trying to fix. It's not about do you give them the money back or not.

It's about don't make it worse. If you can't make it better than the way the industry was thought to be yesterday. Don't touch the car.

That's my battle. Yeah. Is I'm fighting all the other guys that are saying I'm doing it wrong or I'm, you know, whatever. Look, if that was the case, if I was wrong about how I was going about fixing cars and diagnosing them, I wouldn't have 1700 other repair shops that pay me regularly to come out to them and tell them what's wrong with the car.

So Keith, when. When we talked earlier a second ago about not throwing under shops under the bus or whatever, but we know kind of like some of the chat groups and whatnot that we're all involved in. We know that there's some of these shops up here to talk a really good game, but have a mobile guy coming in and bailing them out, rescuing them. Right. I don't want to say because I want to put. There's two different connotations on that. It's one thing to say I use a mobile guy for this programming or whatever, and nobody's perfect. Sometimes you got to call in an expert and they come in in a different fresh setup.

But there's also some of us that, you know, they put all four oxygen sensors in it and ground 104 on that Jeep is bad. And that's why all 402s were calling for codes. It wasn't. It didn't need all four. Didn't need a module. What do you think about. At some point, will. Will the conversations.

Will it get to where I guess we start naming names of who actually is really using. Is getting bailed out a lot. And my. Who are they getting bailed out by?

Yeah. I don't know if that's gonna. If that's gonna happen. I. Because I play both. I play all the ends of the field. Right now I own an automotive repair shop that's trying to gather customers, their regular customers that just want oil changes and stuff.

Yeah.

And I'm also going out and servicing other repair shops and collision centers under the guise of. For the most part, I'm helping you keep your customers.

Yeah.

And then I'm also running a training company where I'm teaching all of my competitors to do what I do right. No problem with any of them. It's just when the first two collide where I want this customer and I'm trying to help you keep this customer. And I'm torn every day with this place shouldn't be in business. But also, thanks for the $15,000 last month.

Yeah.

It's like I have. I have some accounts that are big chains, sometimes the biggest chain in the country. And I make a lot of money off of them. Enough that one of my technicians would have to find another job if that place stopped using me.

Substantial.

So it's. I. If I came out and said th. These shops call us for ridiculous things and I know that they're disservicing people, then I would lose a lot of business.

Yeah.

I shot myself in the foot with the. That collision center one. I have lost almost all of my collision center work because I caught the guy putting resistors in place of pretensioners on airbags trying to hide it and then trying to justify it when he finally admitted that he did it.

Yeah. Now it seems to me maybe I'm making an assumption, but I feel like I'm accurate that you're okay with losing that, that customer.

Yes. All of my collision work did not feel good.

Yeah.

Because that guy's been in our area for like he said, 30 or 40 years he's been doing business in this area and his son has gone out and told. I've gotten, it's gotten back to me that him and his son and they've gone on and put bad reviews on me and, and all kinds of stuff. Now I didn't. I made a video and the general public tried to annihilate them. So they got tons of bad reviews and stuff that were unfortunately on their end warranted.

For sure.

You try to hide a pretension or failing. And he said it was because the replacement ones he bought didn't fit. So he cut them. Now he went back and said, oh well, I was gonna order the right parts. Not to tell anyone the story, but if you cut airbag connectors off and up choked up to the connector and then you solder resistors in place and then you tape it up and then you put the panel back, you're trying to hide it. You're not intending, you don't have no intention of going and putting the right parts on later.

You would do it again though?

Yep, I would do that again. That was the right thing to do.

Yeah. That's kind of what my, my inkling was of my suspicion. It sucks that you've lost that facet of the, of the business coming in. It can't be good.

Nope. Financially hurt. I took a big risk jump into a new market and then did. Did that at all. It financially hurt, but it is what it is. I, I would do it ten times over again.

Yeah.

I'd let the place burn to the ground before I let that walk out there without someone knowing.

And I don't want to ever see the point, I guess, where we start naming names on who. But I mean we know the, the shops that are having a high failure, where they're failing, where they're dropping the ball is that most of it comes down to I said it last. Who was I talking to? Most techs, I think in this industry could get a lot to more the bottom of the problem if they were paid more and give them more time to do it.

Yeah. If they're flat rate, if they were given more time, if every flat Rate job, had an extra 3/10 to go, read the service in info. That extra 18 to 20 minutes just to read the service information. I would lose a ton of work. Like if all of the shops in Tulsa would just start reading service info about every job they did, all of it, and they became a steward of that and they began to gather that skill set of navigating service information and understanding it. Then I could close down my whole mobile business and it would just be us at the shop trying to fix cars.

But you know what so many shop owners do? If they stand out there and they see the technician standing on his hutch looking at the service information for more than two minutes, they're like, what the heck is he doing? He doesn't know. Or she doesn't know what they're doing.

This car has got to be out of here by four. I promised it out. Yeah, we don't do promise times. It's done when it's done.

Yeah. See? So you and Zeb are on the same page on that, right? Because he's like, don't call me, I'll call you when it's done, you know?

Yeah. Every time we've ever tried to make a particular goal of a done time, that's when something gets. Gets messed up, gets left out, gets forgotten, whatever. Our process is just too intrinsically involved in everything that we do to skip past those pieces. There's like, it falls apart worse for us than it does for any other shop because it's not the norm that we're trying to push. 1.

1.

I have told Liz and I told John when we put him in the front, I said, if you come out here in the shop and you tell a tech we have to get this done as quick as possible, I am going to lose my mind.

Yeah.

I'm going to yell and scream and rant. And the guys have seen it. I get worked up regularly.

Yeah.

Really worked up. Not over stuff we do, over stuff other shops do that we're dealing with. When we see the mobile request come in, I was like, you're not going to believe what this shop is saying. You know, it's just. It's every single day.

How many aftermarket parts are you putting on?

Almost zero. Yeah, we've been putting some aftermarket parts on my vehicles. I have a fleet of 14 vehicles that I own because we provide everyone a car too. And I've. I've put aftermarket wheel bearings and stuff on my cars, but they're mine. I would be embarrassed to put those parts on a customer's car knowing it is not going to be a quality of parts that I can stand behind for a long time. Give a lifetime warranty on our workmanship for everything and then two year 24,000 which really need to go to three years because we're not seeing any other failures. Yeah, if I had a lot more business and I was.

We were hitting the numbers I wanted to hit, then we would go to. I'd like to go to like an actual lifetime warranty on everything and then kind of give some clarification of wear items and things like ball joints aren't going to be a lifetime part. They have to be inspected regularly. But water pumps aren't lifetime parts.

Yeah, you can't curb the rim into the.

You know right now we're talking about. We give a lifetime though on any of our workmanship. If we put a part on a car and then it gets sold to another person and gets sold to another person and it comes back and the part we put on with the bolts cross threaded or something and we could tell we. That hasn't been touched since we did it. I'm covering that. That's my name. We still did that work. Work.

Yeah, like that. I think everyone's workmanship should be warrantied for a lifetime. Like if you don't believe in it then don't, don't put it on there.

So this, this vehicle you had in the other day that you're talking about control arms and then shackles, you're putting new parts on for that. You're not buying the aftermarket.

Yeah, we, we were able to get control arms oe we had to order them and the, and the shackle bushings. Yeah, those were all came oe we ordered one aftermarket one because we were concerned. They come as four pieces right. For each side like so we ordered them all and they were like we think we're going to be one short in the whole country. I think we're done. So we ordered one aftermarket one and then went online and ordered from some other like task apart the task of Toyota warehouse out of whatever and got all the parts. So we got it all. If, if we are pushed to absolutely put an aftermarket part on, then we go down the route like we just did a fuel pump on an O1 Dodge truck had 150 psi.

I made a TikTok about it. It had the regulator had failed. Now the pump that was in that car was an aftermarket one with no name sticker on it. Once we replaced it and they put the lock ring on crooked. We have pictures of that. So we put. The only thing we could get that was quality was a Delphi was the only pump we could get to put in there. So we put a Delphi pump in that.

We couldn't get an OE pump for an O1 Dodge with a regulator. So we, we unfortunately had to put an aftermarket on there. If we can't find a quality part that we trust like Delphi is a Tier 1 supplier, if all there is available is a enter XYZ part that nobody likes, then we will decline the repair on the car. And we've done that multiple times. I will, I will just have a conversation with the client and tell them, you know, we only use really high quality parts. I would be embarrassed to put a low quality part on your car and it'd be broken. It's an inconvenience to you. It's an inconvenience to me.

I don't ever want to do that. So we usually go OE only and then tier one supplier, that's the OE manufacturer of that part, most likely, or something really good quality. Like there are some dorman parts that are really good quality. They make a. They make a replacement screen for the Cadillac touchscreens that delaminate. That's really high quality and they warranty it for life. And I've not had any returns. But if no one makes a good part that we can find, we have that conversation.

I just tell them, you know, unfortunately, I was unable to find a quality apart that I would feel good about putting on your vehicle. I need you to understand that there are plenty of shops around town that will put this part on your car and it may be fine and it may not. I don't want to take that risk. I totally understand. I realize this is upsetting and I actually even paid for a tow to another shop on one of the last times we did that. He's like, well, you're not willing to fix it. I said, I just can't put my name on this knowing that. So I paid for that tow to the other shop.

The tow truck company actually took care of me. So shout out to 918 wrecker. And then the other shop put that on and the car came back with a different fault that was the same part that failed. It was a range switch on a Dodge. So the customer ended up paying two diags for the same problem. Same part that I said I wouldn't put on. And then they quickly understood and. And were they thanked Me a lot.

It was, it was a, it felt really, really good. Not like a, yeah, you take that, Mr. Customer. But it was like a. I got someone to understand because they, they had to endure it and it felt bad.

It's a good lesson taught for sure. Right. Like, and that. Yeah. For people listening. Understand what he's saying. He's saying he will, like, he will collect his diag fee and do his bag and say, I'm sorry, I can't go forward with the pair because I can't stand behind this part. And.

Right. And he's the guy. He's the same. He could get a three year warranty on the part from Napa just like everybody else. Right, Everybody.

Oh yeah.

You can get a three year warranty on a dormant part from nap all day long, no problem.

Yep.

He doesn't want to put his reputation on the line for that because what. How many times would he have to do it and will it last three years and you know.

Yep. Coaches are freaking out right now. You're an idiot. You could have done that. What if it's a Carl? I don't care. I don't care. It's really easy to set a policy and then just move on. I don't want to again, I don't need a boat.

So.

Yeah, you know, I don't, I don't want to keep you all night, but tell me, do you think the coaching thing's a good, good thing?

Like, dude, I think all coaches have something good to say. Even the one we were talking about. You don't get as successful as a lot of these guys and gals do without doing a couple things right.

Yeah.

I hear some of them say it doesn't even matter if you fix the car if, if you make the client happy. And that's utter bullshit. By the way. Just so we're clear, I won't know you are an automotive repair shop now. I for my whole life has preached I fix problems and most of the time it's a vehicle, but sometimes it's something for a client that doesn't have anything to do with the car. When you fix a problem, sometimes the problem they're having is attached to the car being broke, but they have other issues and you fix the vehicle and talk to them and converse with them and talk to them about their kids and what they're doing and those things. You have that interaction and it fixes the problem. They have an issue with their car, but they have a problem with what's going on in life and that Happens a lot.

I just had a guy and again, I'm bad about stories, so sorry. But I had a guy that had dropped off an 04 Suburban. Him and his stepdad, we have both phone numbers on file and we called one, let him know and come to find out it was stepson drives it. Stepson just got out of jail. Stepdad pays for the car, owns the car and was making the financial decisions. Well, stepson had gone online and saw how to do a pair of sick draw test, did it himself, called us and said I had a 200amp draw with his Walmart meter in line. I was like, that's got a 10amp fuse. And then when he came in he said it was a two amp draw.

So there was some. I was like, well, two. It was actually. The car actually only had a 23 milliamp draw using an ESI 688 clamp clamp meter. And then he was frustrated, he wanted. He comes in because we call and say, hey, you called and said the lights are out, lights are going on and off inside the car. The headlights are going on and off. It has a draw.

And he initially called and said I want the BCM tested. And I said that's not. You're asking the wrong question. I said, let me explain to you why. And I went through the whole process of why asking to have a part tested is not the right way. We want to figure out what the symptom is and then just diagnose the car and figure out what's wrong with the car to cause that symptom. It may be nothing related to what you're thinking and I would hate to waste your money on doing a test that doesn't lead me to the right answer.

Right.

So he understood that, stepdad understood that, went through that. When stepson comes in and hears that the analysis and testing fee is this much and we need to, we need to replace the dimmer switch because it's what's causing the interior lights and the headlights to flash on and off and maybe your draw. But right now there is no draw currently while it's here. He didn't want to hear that. So he come in and said, so I just paid you $300 and you're telling me we need $170 to do this and it. And it's not going to fix anything. And I had to explain that's not the case that well, he wanted everything on the car fixed, including it dying while driving down the road, which we explained to the stepdad that had nothing to do with this concern. We asked, what is the primary concern you would like us to look at?

Yeah.

And he said, the battery draw is our biggest problem right now. We keep going through batteries. Said, okay, because when someone gives us a plethora of problems, we just tell them, you tell me which symptom is the most concerning to you, and I will approach that. And if I'm really lucky, I might fix all the problems if it's one concern. But if not, I don't want to fix your power windows if it starting is really your problem.

Yeah.

Right. So stepson's in there doing that, and I had to talk him down off that he wants to fight Ledge. And he. But when he first came in, he said, I'm not having a good day, and you're telling me. So I already know that the problem that he's exuding to me that he's upset about this money thing isn't the money thing and isn't the car. It's the other things in life that are affecting him for sure. And, you know, I. Of all of my college time that I spent, most of it was in psychology.

And I can recognize immediately this guy is having a problem outside of this car. Right. So. But I've got to use this car as the anchor point between his problem and me. And so I take him out to the shop and I went through and I, I, he. Cause he's swearing up. He's like, it's got a draw. This is how I did the test.

I asked him what kind of meter. He bought it at Walmart. So I didn't degrade his meter. I talked about how great my meter was.

Yeah.

And the calibration of my meter that I'm using, that was $500. I didn't ask how much was your meter.

No.

You know, and I said, this is a 500 meter. It's ESI 688 rohs compliant. Is a calibrated meter that's easily measurable. And I said, here's the owner's manual. The specification is it'll read really, really accurately down to 0.01 milliamps. It's a very, very high accuracy meter. Even in clamp mode.

Mode.

Show them in clamp mode. That's not how I did it. I did the test this that I was like, okay. So I pull the battery cable off and do an inline test. We stand there for 18 minutes and talk about life. Why the BCM shuts off. Oh, I could have told this guy, screw off. You owe me 300 get you.

You and your face tattoo need to get out of my building. Right? But I didn't because he's having a bad day. It's not the car. It's not. This guy doesn't like my face. It's not. Dude's having a bad day. Right? So sometimes you just got to deal with that.

Right now, it's not a Lucas moment. I didn't have to evict him, but we could have got there and it's. He. By the time I got done, he wanted to know my name, shook my hand, appreciated me explaining the situation to him. And I told him. I told him to his face. And part of it. I said, man, I recognize you're having a bad day.

If you hadn't told me that this would have ended differently, I would have already kicked you out of the building. As I'm trying to be understanding. So work with me on this, you know, and when you get man to man in the situation, people understand that people you're not. They're not just a client. They're. There's someone you may see from now on forever and talk to them about their grandkids or whatever. You know, I don't know if in 30 years, this dude. Over the next 10 years, this dude works for me.

Who knows? Or you learned how to do a pair of Sig draw test and went and bought a tool and did it. He's doing more than what half the shops in town are doing.

And that little interaction you had with him that day might have made the difference between what he went home and did that night.

Yeah.

Yeah, right. Talking about, you know, something that happened very recently in our industry and, you know, Matt Fonzo and. And, you know, talked about. Yeah. We always have to remember that. That's sometimes when people are. Are venting to us or coming out with us, and it's like that there's way more going on, way more going on than everyone.

Stop and think about your own life.

Yeah.

You're listening to a podcast right now, but what's going on with your parents? What's going on with your kids, your nephews, your cousins, what's going at work, their work, your boss, boss's wife. Yeah. Think about it.

It's like Sean Tipping said to me. He says, like what? You know, the people used to just share the means with it. Why do guys go out and start podcasts instead of just getting therapy? Right? And he has a great.

It is therapy.

I'll send it to you. But 100. That's the only reason I'm doing this, I ain't get. I'm not. I'm not buying no boat with this. I want to thank you for being on. I mean, it took a long time from when we first talked about you being on to getting it to happen. But, I mean, I hope that we can.

We can do this again. I really hope we can. And for people that are listening, I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag. Keith's gonna be coming along with a lot more in this kind of realm going forward. You know, social. He already is a. He's out there a pile. You heard him say tick tock.

I know China, but, you know, he's gonna be out there a lot more on social media with doing things like this kind of conversation, stuff like that. So I hope that I can sit down and have another conversation with you at some point. I'd be great. And, you know, you're one of those, like, you're in that top, top echelon of people that I've had so much respect for for a long time. And, I mean, I just feel like, you know, you and I are headed in the same direction on what we think is really important. And, yeah, I can't say enough how. How much of a fan I am of you and your family. You guys are just killing it.

And, you know, we're big fans of you too, though.

Well, thank you. I think your shop has had the most guests on this. I mean, I've had Jeff on two, three times. I mean, I've had Zach, like, you know, it's been. It's been fantastic. And, you know, hopefully Liz and I can sit down at some point too.

Yeah. I'm so scatterbrained. She's actually busy. Yeah, there you go.

But I'm sure I'm not gonna be a Vision, but I'm sure everybody, like, you'll be there. Yeah.

Yep.

Whole shop look for Keith and all the guys from Vision and, you know.

Come visit our booth. We got an L1 training booth again this year.

Yeah. So, anyway, I will. I will let you go. I appreciate you being here with me, and I look forward to chatting with you again. So.

Yeah, thanks, Jeff. Appreciate it.

I'll be back. Yeah, thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you later. Hey, if you could do me a favor real quick and, like, comment on and share this episode, I'd really appreciate it. And please, most importantly, set the podcast to automatically download every Tuesday morning. As always, I'd like to thank our amazing guests for their perspectives and expertise. And I hope that you'll please join us again next week on this journey of change. Thank you to my partners in the AESAW group and to the Changing the Industry podcast.

Remember what I always say, in this industry, you get what you pay for. Here's hoping everyone finds their missing 10 millimeter, and we'll see you all again next time.

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