A Formula One team is the organization that competes in F1 with its own car and staff. New teams usually need time—often several years—to get fast enough to fight at the front.
In Formula One, the World Championship is the season-long competition that crowns the best driver (and, separately, the best team). Winning a World Championship is a major milestone that changes a driver’s options and leverage.
A Grand Prix driver is someone who races at the highest level of Grand Prix events. In this context, it means the top-tier open-wheel racing that Formula One represents.
The Buick Century is a regular passenger car (a sedan) made for comfortable daily driving. It’s not primarily a race car; it’s more about smooth transportation. The podcast mentions it to connect to the larger history of car makers and their work.
The Miami Grand Prix is a Formula 1 race in Miami. The episode uses it to set where and when Emerson is talking to the hosts.
Car
McLaren M23
The McLaren M23 is an old Formula 1 race car from McLaren. In this episode, it’s mentioned because Emerson Fittipaldi got to see his old McLaren again during a team celebration.
Power-to-weight ratio is a simple way to describe how “strong” a car feels for its size. If a car is light and has a lot of power, it tends to accelerate quickly.
Spinning wheels means the tires are slipping instead of gripping the road. The car can still accelerate hard, but you’re not getting the traction you need to put power down efficiently.
Grip is how well the tires “hold on” to the ground. If grip is low, the car can slip—like spinning wheels—even if the engine is making plenty of power.
Brand
Zac Brown
Zac Brown is referenced as a key figure associated with McLaren’s organization and public-facing events. The speaker’s “typical from Zac Brown” comment frames him as someone who makes these celebrations happen.
Lotus is a Formula 1 team and constructor with a long history of winning races and championships. The speaker references his success with Lotus and his relationship with Colin (his mentor), which sets up the context for why he later moved to McLaren.
Team orders are instructions from the team telling drivers how to race, usually to help the team or championship. A signboard is a signal the team uses, and in this story the drivers didn’t follow it because they didn’t see it.
He’s talking about the next races in North America. Those races still had enough points to change who could win the championship.
Company
Teddy Mayer
Teddy Mayer was an important person in Formula 1 management. Here, the speaker says he was in charge of McLaren at that time.
Topic
team BRM
BRM is the name of a Formula 1 team. The speaker is saying they needed to switch away from BRM because results weren’t going well.
Topic
Indie program
They mention an “Indie” program, meaning a racing effort connected to IndyCar-style racing. The point is that even a small shop was working on more than one type of race.
Winter testing is when Formula 1 teams practice and fine-tune the car before the season starts. It helps them learn what works so they can be ready for races like Interlagos.
A “bump track” means the road surface has bumps and uneven spots. Those bumps can make the car bounce, so the team has to set up the suspension and tires to stay stable and grip the road.
“Fast corners” are turns you take at higher speed. The car has to stay planted and keep good tire grip, so it feels smooth and controlled rather than sliding or bouncing.
Term
turn one, two
“Turn one, two” just means the first and second corners on the track. The exact layout matters because it changes how the driver brakes and turns, and how the car grips.
Suspension is the part of the car that helps the wheels follow the road. Changing it can make the car grip better and feel more stable when you’re turning hard at speed. That’s why it matters a lot in racing.
“Geometry” here means how the wheels are set up relative to the car—basically the alignment and angles that affect tire contact. Small changes can make the car turn in better and hold grip through corners. It’s a key part of race-car setup.
Downforce is the “suction” effect from the car’s shape and wings that presses the tires onto the track. More downforce usually means better grip in corners, so the car can go faster while staying stable. That’s why wings matter in race cars.
“Wings” are the aerodynamic parts on a race car that help it stick to the road. By changing them, teams can increase grip in corners. They’re a big reason race cars can go so fast through turns.
Telemetry is computer-based data logging from the race car. Fittipaldi is saying that back then there wasn’t that kind of data, so the team had to improve the car mainly by listening to the driver’s feel and making changes based on that. It was more “hands-on” than today.
Concept
driver feel
“Driver feel” means what the driver notices about the car while driving—like whether it turns in smoothly or feels stable. In this story, because there wasn’t telemetry, the team used that feedback to decide what to change. It’s basically the driver acting like the sensor.
Torsion bars are suspension springs that twist to provide springing and ride control. In this context, the speaker says Lotus’s torsion-bar setup was difficult to work with because getting the correct “proper angle” (installation/geometry) matters for how the suspension behaves.
Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear wheels. Changing it can make the car feel more stable or more nimble, which is why they used different lengths for tracks like Monaco.
Weight distribution is how the car’s weight is split between the front and back. Shifting more weight to the front can change how the car turns and grips, especially on tighter tracks.
“Equal points” means two drivers ended the season with the same total score. The champion is then decided using extra rules based on how they finished races.
The rear wing is an F1 part that helps the car stick to the track. More wing usually means more corner grip, but it also adds drag that can slow you down on straight sections.
Fuel load is how much fuel is in the car. Early in the race the car is heavier, and that can change how much aerodynamic help (like wing settings) you need.
Drag is air resistance that makes the car slower, especially when you’re going fast. Less wing can reduce drag and help you go quicker on straight sections.
Term
aerodynamic configuration
An aerodynamic configuration is the exact wing/aero setup the car is running. It’s chosen to balance grip in corners versus speed on straights, and it can change as the race conditions change.
A “straight line” is the part of the track where you’re basically going straight and can carry speed. Passing there is hard because both cars are moving fast and there’s less room to maneuver.
“Lap one” just means the first round of the track. Early in a race, cars are close together, so it’s usually the most intense and risky time.
Topic
Formula One world
This phrase just means the whole Formula 1 scene—everyone watching and competing in F1.
Company
Copa Suica team
A “team” in racing is the group that prepares the car and enters it in races. The “Copa Suica team” is the specific racing outfit being mentioned here.
The Volkswagen Beetle is a small, classic car that became famous for its unusual shape. It’s often talked about because it was built for many years and is easy to recognize. In the podcast, it’s used as an example of a car people love to build and work on.
The Ford GT40 is a race-focused sports car designed to go very fast for long periods. It’s famous because it was built to win endurance races. The podcast brings it up as an example of serious performance engineering.
The Alfa Romeo 33 is a race car made for high-speed competition. It’s designed to perform well over demanding events, not just for everyday driving. The podcast mentions it as an example of a famous, fast car built for racing.
A “Formula One car” refers to the purpose-built single-seater race cars used in F1, with strict technical rules around aerodynamics, engines, and safety. The speaker’s point is that, at the time, a combination of available racing components made it possible for private builders to assemble an F1-style car.
Embraer is mentioned as “the airplane company,” indicating the speaker is connecting the Brazilian motorsport effort to a real Brazilian corporate actor. In this context, it’s a business/industry reference rather than a technical automotive detail.
A wind tunnel is a place where you can test how air flows around a car. Teams use it to figure out how much “push down” the car gets and how much air resistance it creates.
Concept
aero balance
Aero balance means how the car’s aerodynamic grip is spread across the front and rear. If it’s not right, the car can turn in weirdly or feel unstable, even if it has a lot of downforce.
Company
Philip Morris
Philip Morris is a company that, historically, sponsored motorsport teams. The speaker is talking about whether they surprised the sponsor when making contract decisions.
Senna refers to Ayrton Senna, one of the most influential Formula One drivers. Mentioning him in connection with McLaren highlights the caliber of people Ramirez worked with.
Prost refers to Alain Prost, another all-time great Formula One driver. Alongside Senna, his name here signals the high-profile McLaren environment Ramirez was part of.
“Logistics” here means the real-world hassle of shipping race parts and equipment across countries. If customs or shipping takes too long, the team can’t get the car ready in time.
“Clear customs” means getting permission from the government to bring imported goods into the country. For race teams, that step can take time and can delay parts.
This means the team has to get the car ready for the next race right after the previous one. There’s very little downtime, so everything has to be organized and maintained quickly.
A valve spring is a small part inside the engine that helps control how the engine valves move. If it breaks, the engine can misbehave or stop working properly.
A ground effect car is designed so the underside of the car helps push it down onto the track. It makes the tires grip better, especially at speed. But if the airflow under the car changes, the handling can get weird or harder to drive.
Silverstone is a well-known Formula 1 race track in the UK. The speaker uses it to describe what it felt like driving the ground-effect car—how fast you could carry speed before a corner. It’s an example of the driving experience on a real circuit.
“Feeling the limit” means knowing when the car is about to lose grip. If the car is very stable and grippy, it can be harder for the driver to tell the exact moment it’s near the edge.
Company
Skoll, Brazil
The guest talks about people from a Brazilian group who were involved in marketing and communications. They contacted him because they believed the team was being harmed in the public narrative.
They’re talking about money in Formula 1—how sponsors decide whether to support a team, and how bad publicity can make it harder to find new backers. They also mention that building a strong team takes time, not just one race.
“Qualify fourth” means the driver finished 4th in the qualifying session, which sets where they start the race. Starting near the front usually makes the race easier to manage.
Company
Ross Braun
Ross Braun is said to have bought the team after Honda left. When that happens, the team’s funding and leadership can change, which can influence how well it does.
The Nürburgring is a well-known race track in Germany. The speaker mentions it because something serious happened there and it affected how rescue and medical help worked.
Concept
monopostos
“Monopostos” means single-seat race cars. The idea is that the car was built for one driver, like early racing machines rather than a more general-purpose vehicle.
Formula 2 is a racing series that sits just below Formula 1. It’s often where drivers and teams learn and develop skills before moving up.
Concept
Grand Prix cars
“Grand Prix cars” are the race cars used for major top-level Grand Prix events. The speaker is basically saying Ferrari’s early cars were part of that top racing world.
A sports car championship is a racing competition for sports cars, not the open-wheel cars used in Formula One. Ferrari wanted Emerson to drive in that kind of series because it mattered to them.
Le Mans is a famous long-distance endurance race (the 24 Hours of Le Mans) where cars race for a full day. Emerson says he didn’t want to do that kind of sports-car event then.
A “number one driver” is the teammate the team focuses on most. That usually means more priority for things like strategy and car support, which can help a driver feel more confident.
Mercedes is one of the major Formula 1 teams. The speaker is saying that if Mercedes fully supports a young driver, it can make it easier for them to succeed.
Watkins Glen is a famous race track. They’re pointing out that his first “number one” race happened there, and it rained on race day, making driving harder.
Race strategy is the team’s plan for how to drive and when to make decisions during the race. It often includes when to pit and how to manage tire grip.
Max Verstappen is a current Formula 1 superstar. The hosts mention him as an example of someone who could do the same kind of “start your own team” thing today.
LIVE
50 years ago, Emerson Fittipaldi shocked the Formula One world by leaving McLaren just
a year after becoming a two-time world champion.
He didn't move to a rival or go and race in another series or retire.
He created his own Formula One team.
I knew that would be a struggle because when you start a new Formula One team, normally
you need four to five years to be competitive normally.
But as an athlete, you always have to have a new challenge.
And there was a big challenge myself and my brother to go to our own team.
I got everybody by surprise.
It was an incredibly brave move and one that might never have happened, given the crossroads
he was at after winning his first title.
When I won my first World Championship, I had lunch with my father, myself and my brother.
Nobody knows this.
I looked to my father and said, I'm retired from Formula One.
And my father said, you're retired from Formula One?
I said, yes.
I left Brazil.
I had the dream to be a Grand Prix driver.
I want the World Championship.
What else I want?
And then my father gave me very good advice.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson.
I always enjoyed chatting to Emerson Fidipaldi because he's such a brilliant storyteller
and his passion for Formula One still burns brightly.
Half a century after he and his brother Wilson created the Copa Suka Formula One team, I
wanted to take Emerson back to the defining moments of his career that led to that sensational
chapter.
The thoughts about retirement after his first title with Lotus and how his dad persuaded
him to continue racing.
His decision to leave Lotus for McLaren and the nail-biting final race title decider
in 1974, which he and Clay Regasoni went into level on points, and Emerson was crowned
champion for a second time.
All of those moments led him to set up Copa Suka.
Emo tells me why he took on such a big challenge, the various hurdles the team faced and the
intense criticism they received from the Brazilian press.
It's a real joy to hear Emerson relive such a special career.
The way he describes the tension of his final race showdown with Regasoni is so gripping
and how much he relished the pressure and challenge of taking such big risks is really
inspiring.
Emo, it's wonderful to have you on the show again.
How are you, first of all?
Thank you, Ton.
Always great.
Be back in Miami is always because it's my home.
I live here since 1984 to have this Miami Grand Prix.
It's fantastic.
It certainly is, and we're going to talk about something that happened in Miami yesterday
because you were reunited with your McLaren M23 as part of the team's 1000 race celebrations.
Was it like being reunited with an old friend?
Was exactly the same, the cockpit, the steering wheel position, the pedals, and then go back
to that cockpit.
I never believed that one day it would drive the M23 on the streets of Miami and it was
a fantastic feeling in all the great champions from the history of McLaren, the world champions,
and it was incredible event, very good for commemoration of 1000 Grand Prix.
What does the car feel like?
Is it still very tight?
Does it feel as good as it did 50 years ago?
It feels extremely good, another impressive thing, Ton, because it was only 550 kilos
and we had over 400 horsepower.
That means it was nearly one kilo per horsepower.
I was spinning wheels and it accelerated so much that, you know, it was the relationship
similar to Formula 1 car now, the weight, power, it's very similar, very impressive
acceleration, but there was no grip and a lot of spectators, the public was an incredible
event in McLaren organized, Zac Brown, typical from Zac Brown.
I asked the team, I said, did Emerson give it full beans and they went, oh yeah, you
were enjoying yourself, right?
For sure.
As part of the 1000 celebrations, can we talk a little bit about McLaren in the two
years that you raced for them?
What was the team like back then in 1974, 1975?
I was very impressive when I wanted to choose McLaren because Philip Morris gave me the
mission, go to England and you talk to Kent Tiro and Bernie Acosta and the Brabant was
extremely competitive, teams and cars and McLaren.
But when I walk in McLaren, I feel a lot of motivation, you know, the very young people,
was only like 30 people, the whole team, and Teddy Mayor Alistair Cadwell was the team
and was very much into try to win the World Championship.
McLaren was on the edge to come as one of the best teams and then I chose McLaren.
Why did you leave Lotus and go to McLaren?
Because you've been so successful at Lotus.
I had already five years with Colin.
Colin was my mentor.
I have a lot of gratitude for everything that Colin teaches me.
And the last year, 1973, I was teammate to Ronny and in Monza, I still had a mathematical
chance to win the World Championship.
And before the race, I had a meeting myself, Ronny and Colin, and we say, if we are leading
the race and the third guy is well behind, if I finish first, I still can go for the
championship in Canada and the States.
And Colin said, OK, 15 laps to go, I give a signboard and you guys change your position.
And the signboard never come.
And then I was chasing Ronny on the limit to pass.
Ronny was defending himself because he didn't see the sign.
I didn't see the sign and finished Ronny first or second.
I lost my chance to win the championship that year.
Did you confront Colin about what had happened?
Immediately after the race.
What did he say?
I said, Colin said, I am like he didn't realize.
And then I say, Colin, I think I'm going to leave.
And then he called me and he didn't want me to leave.
He talked to my wife.
Tell Emerson to continue.
But at that time was the time to move because I was since 1969.
Private Lotus, 69, 77, 77, 75 years.
But it was a great relationship.
Why do you think Colin didn't show the sign?
Was Ronny Peterson his guy?
Is that?
No, I said.
Did you see Ronny as the future?
I think Colin didn't want to change anything on the race.
Say, let finish like was.
I was very, very surprised.
I had a very good relationship with Colin since I started.
I have a lot of grudge to them.
Still very good friend with Clive.
And Hazel was, after many years, I went to Norwich to visit them.
And they know the Chapman family was very good to me.
But it happened.
So Monser 73 was the trigger point.
What happened next?
You have a meeting with Teddy Mayer,
the guy running McLaren at the time.
At that time, Philip Morse, I used to live in Lausanne.
Philip Morse had quarters of Lausanne.
And they asked me to drive.
I said, listen, we have to change team BRM.
He's not doing well.
Louis Stanley is a great guy, but the team was not doing well.
We must found a new team.
And they asked me to go to England.
And it was a very difficult decision when I went back to Lausanne.
I said McLaren, they said, but McLaren never won the championship.
I said, but should be.
And I was very, very happy that I chose McLaren.
Why did you have that belief in McLaren?
What was it about the team that convinced you they could do it?
Tony, they are very young people, very motivated.
Most of them from New Zealand.
When you move from one continent to another continent
to challenge your life, your commitment is much stronger
than the guy who lives in Italy, go to England.
And I could feel the energy, the motivation, very young people.
Alistair Cardo was a fantastic team manager.
Teddy Mayer, very American, very logistic, organized for the team.
I feel McLaren was very well organized, different from Lotus.
Lotus had a great team manager, Peter War, at that time.
But Teddy Mayer was more American way to organize a team.
And I feel more like everything should be better.
He was a lawyer.
He was a lawyer.
He was a detailed man.
And he lost his brother, Team Mayer, in Tasman series.
And that's why he was a very good friend of Bruce.
And when Bruce went away, he took over the whole team.
Teddy was a very understanding about racing.
People don't know, but in 93, when I won my second Indie,
he was my engineer after so many years of painting.
It's such a small world, this racing world.
And then Roger C. Emerson, your engineer in 93 will be there.
They say, that's great.
And we won in the Annapolis.
But the motor race community is so small, so close to each other.
Now, the factory for McLaren back then was not in Woking.
It was nothing like the MTC that we know today.
You were in Colnbrook.
What are your memories of the factory?
Very small, very clean, very organized.
I think it was about only 30 people.
And amazing, because they have the Indie program.
They won 74 John Rutherford.
They have Canon and Formula One.
I mean, with only around 30 people.
It was amazing to see all of these results they had in 974.
It was amazing.
And I really enjoy every minute I was with McLaren.
It was really great.
This episode is sponsored by Vantor.
One thing a lot of growing companies discover pretty quickly
is that winning new business isn't just about having a great product anymore.
At some point, someone asks about your security and compliance
and suddenly the deal slows down.
That's exactly the kind of challenge Vantor is built to help with.
Vantor automates your compliance process
and brings compliance, risk and customer trust together on one AI-powered platform.
So whether you're preparing for a SOC2
or managing a larger enterprise GRC program,
Vantor helps keep everything organized and keeps your deals moving.
And it can save a huge amount of time too.
Companies like Ramp and Writer spend 82% less time on audits with Vantor.
That's not just faster compliance.
It's more time to focus on growing the business.
No wonder over 10,000 companies from startups to large enterprises
trust Vantor to help them prove security and build customer confidence.
Get started at vantor.com slash GRID.
That's vantor.com slash GRID.
Can we talk about 74 then?
The year you win the championship with McLaren.
I mean, you win your home race at Interlogos
for the second year in a row actually.
But describe the emotions of winning at home.
You know, it's so special, Tom, because when you go race home,
I was on your backyard.
I started racing in Interlogos in motorcycle when I was 14 years old.
And then go back there with the family, the friends,
being back in Terlagos home,
Sao Paulo, tremendous pressure.
And with McLaren, I had double pressure
because many people say why Emerson left Lotus?
Now, how good he's going to be with McLaren?
People's question was a good move.
It's not a good move.
And McLaren was very good in Terlagos, too.
We got a good setup.
We test during the winter with good year
and we develop the car for Interlogos, very bump track.
And McLaren always very fast on fast corners.
And if you remember the old Interlogos,
there was turn one, two similar to Indianapolis.
And then you had up here in the lake.
And then turn of sun because very long term
and McLaren is always very impressive on fast corners.
I remember when I was Dyson,
George Schecter the year before, he always very fast in fast corners.
Jody was there.
Jody, George Schecter was a very fast.
You say the M23 was quick through fast corners.
What were the other differences with the Lotus 72
in which you'd won the championship?
The Lotus 72 to me was the best car I ever drove
on my career for the cars I drove.
The Lotus 72 all this year with Colin,
we developed the car changing suspension, geometry,
downforce, wings, but always incredible car to drive.
I would come to the paddock, look to him, he looked to me
and we got together was the extension of my body.
It was a fantastic car.
And that was Colin was a genius.
And he has intuition to set up a car.
And I remember Colin put the two fingers here
when I talk about the car, it comes the right solution.
It was amazing because there's no telemetry.
There was was just what I was feeling telling Colin
and then Colin going to the point and improving the car.
It was a fantastic car.
Did you establish a bond like that with the people at McLaren?
Yes. Yes.
After the first two, we had a very good relationship.
Gordon Kopuk was the chief engineer.
He was extremely good, very dedicated.
He did a fantastic car.
I mean, the M23 was incredible car.
It was a more simple car, more conventional car than the Lotus.
Lotus had like the torsion bars that was difficult to work with the
the proper angle.
We all the time working in McLaren was more a conventional car.
But we had three wheelbases, a long wheelbase.
We had the mid wheelbase and the short wheelbase for Monaco
for the short circuits.
And there was another good work for McLaren for logistic
and we changed the weight distribution,
more percentage weight on the front for the short circuits.
I mean, we had a lot of pre race study
from each track more than Lotus would do to adapt the M23
to different tracks, different characteristics for the whole year.
And that was Alistair Caddo and Gordon, Gordon Kopuk.
Which of those three wheelbase lengths did you enjoy driving the most?
Well, the long wheelbase on fast corners was incredible.
Like Woodcote Silverstone was amazing, the car, the balance.
In Monaco, I had the short wheelbase.
Actually, I was very fast in seventy five, when Niki won
and I was second, I was catching Niki, the Ferrari.
Then I was much faster than Niki, but I couldn't pass.
But we always adapt the car to different track characteristics.
That was an incredible job McLaren was doing.
OK, so in seventy four, you win the title by just three points
for from Clay Regazzoni.
Tell us about the pressure of the whole season
and what it felt like to get it over the line and to get that second title.
You know, Tony, you work the whole year.
You dedicate yourself, the whole team up and down,
break the engine, finish, get the points.
We go to Watkins Glen, last race,
equal points to Clay Regazzoni with the Ferrari.
And by coincidence was one of the first races that year
that we could make the car work properly.
And then we're a tremendous tension on the team myself.
Only time only slept three hours before race.
Even Brazilian Grand Prix, the Indianapolis 500.
I never had the problem of sleeping well before the race.
But what was the issue?
This just the pressure, the magnitude of the occasion.
Yes, after the whole year of work,
I go to the last race, equal points and Clay started next to me.
And then on the grid, you know, the McLaren boys myself,
we didn't want to look at the Ferrari.
The Ferrari boys didn't want to look at us next to each other.
And again, you know, Alistair Cad was brilliant
because Ferrari was very fast in straight line.
Typical Ferrari engine was very powerful.
And then in the morning, Alistair, say, Emerson,
if we run less real wing in the beginning of the race
with full load of fuel, the car can take less real wing at that time.
And we surprised Ferrari with the speed on the straight.
And then in the morning, we tried much less real wing.
I was very fast in straight line and say, that's perfect configuration.
And I remember, you know, before the start, I'm sitting in the cockpit.
I looked to Clay and I could see Clay looking to me,
but we didn't face each other because I'm sinking.
In hour and a half, he or me is going to be over champ
after the whole year was tremendous pressure.
Did you like Clay?
Did you have a good relationship with Clay?
I had an extremely good relationship with Clay outside of the track.
Inside the track, Clay many times
would take the physical space of your car that he didn't belong.
He was very aggressive, very aggressive.
Clay had many was not like to drive against Jackie, Nikki Louder.
But Clay, I knew he was going to be tough before the race.
I knew it was going to be tough.
I was ready.
So you ran less rear wing and it was fine
when you were full of fuel at the start of the race.
What was the car like later on?
Well, we knew after half of the race, a half fuel was going to be more
tricky to drive, more nervous.
But we were hoping that we could take advantage to begin of the race
and surprise Ferrari, surprise Clay and was, you know, after I did
the quite good start. I was on the outside place of the inside line.
He took turn one ahead of me.
And then you go uphill.
What is going very fast as is into the straight.
And as I'm finished, the fastest as into the straight,
I was catching the Ferrari.
And then I could see Clay look in the mirror, both sides, you know,
you never expect my client catching the straight line.
And then I sleep streaming him.
I wanted on the on the right side.
He was in the middle of the street and he pushed him on the grass.
And as he pushed him on the grass, I said, now he's doing dying.
I turned the mark line against the Ferrari, very aggressive.
I we nearly hit each other.
He took the Ferrari because if you're not going to crash in straight line.
But I keep flat out.
I didn't back off.
And then I had the momentum on the Ferrari.
And by the end of the street, I was ahead of him.
And then I'm thinking, I'm not going to look in the mirror.
I'm going to focus to see if I can open a gap to Clay.
And I think he was caught by surprise.
And by the end of lap one, I was already more than 100 meters ahead.
I say, now focus, focus and gone.
And I was very upset because it could crash each other in straight line.
And and it was fantastic to win the championship.
Big commemoration, my client of everybody going crazy.
And I was going to talk to Clay.
And then I say, well, I'm going to talk to case.
Thanks, God, I'm the new world champion.
He lost it.
And I won.
I cannot complain.
Thank you, God.
And did Clay ever wish you congratulations, even if you didn't talk about that incident?
No, you never that that weekend.
No, he's gone, he's gone.
But was was amazing, the very tough words to the second world championship
was difficult than the first one.
Then we go into seventy five, of course, the next year.
The car's not quite as competitive, is it?
But can I talk to you now about what happened next in your career?
Because you'd finished first, second, first, second over the space of four seasons.
And you shock the Formula One world by joining the family business effectively,
wasn't it, the the Fittipale, the Copa Suica team.
Talk us through that decision for nineteen seventy six, fifty years ago.
Don, if I on a brief way, I talk to you what we've done in Brazil
for you to understand people, understand our history.
When I started racing, I built my own car with my brother.
We're on the championship.
Then we build our own from La Vie to race and sell to other drivers
to keep us racing, was like a business.
And then we build a prototype called Fiti Porsche with a two liter Porsche engine
was the fastest car in the likes by we broke the lap record by nine seconds
as a home build car.
And then Ricardo Diva will be the twin engine Volkswagen
who was extremely fast.
There was Dyson for GT 40, the Alfa Romeo P33 with a beetle.
And we always loved to build cars.
We love the mechanical part of the develop.
And at that time, you had what I call the racing package,
the coser engine, Hewland gearbox that anybody could buy
and make a nice chassis, a nice car and build a Formula One car.
And then myself and my brother, my brother's drive for Bernie in ninety seven
three, then one day we're talking, say, why don't make a Brazilian
Formula One team and say, well, the big challenge is for Brazil
be fantastic to have a Brazilian team.
And then my brother started Ricardo Diva was a very good engineer,
Brazilian engineer, a very young, very talented.
He speaks perfect English, very intelligent.
And we start the team.
And then after one year, Embraer, the airplane company,
helped us to develop on the wind tunnel in the factory for Embraer.
We developed a new car that was laying down too much.
My brother couldn't drive, tried to make it very dynamic.
And we start the team.
And after one year, I was going to go again with McLaren.
I say, I won red twice the world championship.
What else I want in life?
That does make a new challenge.
And there was a big challenge myself and my brother to go to our own team.
I got everybody by surprise.
Did you catch McLaren by surprise?
Did you catch Philip Morris by surprise?
Was because I was about to sign the contract
the end of the year.
And then I went to Ted and say, thank you for the opportunity.
But I'm going to go to my own team with my brother to build our own car.
And Ted, I am a son, you know, we'll count on you.
And and that's why it happened.
They got James because at that time James was available.
James Hunt, yes, who was a very good friend, incredible guy.
Ammo, did you know at the end of seventy five
when you signed for your own team and left McLaren?
Did you know that they were going to have a good car for seventy six?
Did you know that you were walking away from a potential world championship?
I knew it would be very difficult.
I knew it would be a challenge.
I knew that it would be a struggle because when you start a new Formula One team,
normally you need four to five years to be competitive normally.
And I knew it was going to be a struggle, but it was a challenge to me.
You know, sometimes in life, like when I won my first world championship,
I went back home to Switzerland and I had lunch.
My my father, myself and my brother, nobody knows this.
And I look to my father, some retired from Formula One after Monsa.
The next day and my father say retired from Formula One.
I say, yes, what else I want? I left to Brazil.
I had the dream to be a Grand Prix driver.
I want the world championship.
What else I want? And then my father gave me a very good advice.
The way you like racing, I know in one or two years or three years,
you'll be back in Formula One to be much difficult if you continue
because there was a lot of crash.
But as an athlete, you always have to have a new challenge.
And then it was a challenge to continue with McLaren.
The next challenge was to build our own team.
Did you quite fancy the player manager role, if you like, being the driver and the boss?
Not really.
I was I was giving the idea mainly for the performance of the car.
My brother's running and they had very good team manager, Joe Ramirez.
The great Joe Ramirez.
Yeah, who worked with Senna and Prost at McLaren.
Yes, and Joe was running the team.
We had a very difficult logistic problem because every time, for example,
an engine come from England, we had to clear customs in Brazil.
It was so complicated.
We waste so much time, so much energy on working between Europe and Brazil
to build the car.
The whole car was built next to the gate 7.
There's still gate 7 there.
So the factory was at Interlogos.
It's 100 meters from the gate.
Yes, yes, yes.
But you were having to bring a lot of stuff over from England, the gearbox, the engine.
Yes, all the, you know, the brakes come from England.
Always very difficult logistic to import.
Did you have a base in England as well?
Not the time in the beginning, no.
The first two, three years, no.
And then we had the base, yes, ready.
So the cars would return to Brazil after every race?
No, we had a maintenance place, not factory, just to keep the cars running
from Grand Prix to Grand Prix.
But the building, everything was in Brazil at that time.
This episode is sponsored by Shopify,
the best online checkout experiences are the ones you barely notice.
Because everything just works.
You tap once, the purchase goes through and you're done.
And quite often, that's because you've spotted that purple shop pay button.
Instead of digging around for your wallet or trying to remember yet another password,
your details are already saved.
So checkout takes seconds and that's all powered by Shopify.
From household names like Heinz and Gymshark to new businesses
launching every day, Shopify helps millions of brands run their online stores.
If you've got an idea for a business of your own,
Shopify gives you everything you need in one place.
From ready made templates to build your online store,
to built in AI tools that write product descriptions,
create page headlines and even enhance product photography.
It can even help you find your customers with email and social media tools
designed to get the word out about your brand.
And if you ever need help along the way,
Shopify's award winning 24 seven support is there to guide you.
So see less carts go abandoned and more sales go
with Shopify and their shop pay button.
Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash beyond the grid.
Go to Shopify.com slash beyond the grid.
That's Shopify.com slash beyond the grid.
You scored three sixth place finishes in that first season in 76.
Was that enough for you to think,
yes, we're on the right path, we can succeed?
You know, going first Grand Prix, the Brazilian Grand Prix,
I call decozzur and decosting because our engines were used to engines.
From 75, they were used to engines.
And I say, for the Brazilian Grand Prix, I want a brand new coser
because it's so important for us to do out on the Brazilian Grand Prix.
And they made this, I mean, the perfect engine they sent to Brazil.
I qualify, I think, fifth or sixth on my first race of Copa Succar.
And then we are hoping we never have an engine problem.
After four or five laps went to seven cylinder danger.
I think I broke a spring valve.
And then I was very disappointed the first Brazilian
because I was good run strong.
And then every track with low grip were quite fast tracks.
With a high grip, we couldn't get the car working.
It was a very difficult year.
I mean, in terms of performance,
how much worse was it than the M23 you just left at McLaren?
It was a different level.
You know, the M23 was a much better car, much easier to drive.
Our car was learning, learning new tracks, new configuration,
didn't have the setup.
McLaren had all this, the years of going from Grand Prix to Grand Prix,
what set up, and we started a new team.
And it was Ricardo Diva, the engineer.
We didn't have the past set up to use in the present.
And they're always struggling to keep up with the other cars.
In terms of points scored, your best season with Copa Succar was 78.
I think it was 17 points, you finished 10th in the drivers' championship.
What came good that year? What was it about that year?
The car was just simply more competitive
or was there more to it than that?
It was really a modified car that we had, the ground effect car.
It was developed by engineer Cali, the ex Ferrari engineer.
Designed aerodynamic, the car helps a lot.
And again, in Brazil it was fantastic,
the Brazilian Grand Prix begin of the season to finish second behind Carlos,
but ahead of Gilles Villeneuve, ahead of Mario,
the loads that he won the championship,
we had a very competitive car.
And most of the races was good car.
The F5A was a very good car, it was the best year.
At the end of the year, finished ahead of McLaren points,
ahead of Renault, Williams.
Did you struggle with motivation, just in the cockpit?
Not really, no.
Driving always wanted to take the maximum out of the car,
the track of myself, because I still always enjoy racing.
I started losing motivation in 1980, that's when the reason I retired,
because the full ground effect car, to me,
is difficult to explain, but if you arrive at the end of the straight in Silverstone
and you have five kilometers more going to the corner,
multiply so much the downforce,
then it was difficult to feel the limit of the car.
And then was taking away the art of driving to me.
It was just, you have to have a big boss, big boss.
Emma, it was such a brave project, the Copa Suka one, wasn't it?
I mean, when you reflect on it now, and there was so much that was good, by the way,
you gave Adrian Newey his first job in Formula One, you know.
KK Rosberg was your teammate, and he got his first podium in Formula One.
There was so much that was good.
When you look back now, all these years later,
are you pleased you did it, and what would you do differently?
I was very pleased in 1998,
because to have a good Formula One team, you need good people.
And we had Pitowar. To me, it was a dream team, Pitowar, KK Rosberg's teammate.
A hard post-weight Adrian Newey and Ricardo Givila are still there.
And then we had the new car, the F8, that we developed, was a very good car.
It was the first car that Adrian, he was a junior engineer.
A hard post-weight was a very good engineer.
And then, July, the marketing people from Skoll, Brazil,
who was a group owned by a Canadian-Brazilian group,
called me and said,
Emerson, the Brazilian press, not the racing press,
but the regular press, who don't understand about racing,
is destroying the team.
It was five years, you don't have any result.
It doesn't justify for us to continue sponsorship.
I had this shock news in July, when they just announced the F8.
And then, Monday, I went to, I call everybody and say,
listen, guys, by the end of the year,
I release KK, Pitowar, everybody, we cannot continue.
And then we went to the first race in Hockenheim.
I think, first, out of the box, you qualify fourth.
And it was fifth or sixth.
But that was very bad news, but it's part of the sport, part of motor racing.
But given that performance, were you not tempted to just try
and find another title sponsor, or is that too simplistic an analysis?
I tried, but it was very difficult, because the Brazilian press,
not the racing press, the regular press destroyed the team.
After so many years, they say, why?
They didn't understand.
It takes four, five, six years to get the Formula One team going well.
And then every potential sponsor went to Brazil to say,
by the end of the year, look what the press is saying.
But, you know, I have good people, and it was fantastic, it was a shame.
Things happen.
It feels you were just turning the corner at that point.
I'm reminded of Honda at the end of 2008,
when they withdrew from Formula One.
Of course, Ross Braun bought the team,
and Jensen Button wins the World Championship,
and they win the Constructors.
It kind of has that feel about it, doesn't it?
And my brother Wilson, who dedicated his five years of his life to the team,
and he was very frustrated after that.
I actually got sick because of that, my brother.
Because of so much feeling, that's his life.
You know, to have at that point a good team, we could not continue,
and Wilson got sick because of that.
When you were racing for your own team,
did any teams, other teams, try and lure you away and to go and race for them?
Did Enzo Ferrari try and get hold of you?
Was there any of that?
No, but engineer Rukiti from Alfa Romeo talked to me,
but I was so focused.
And what happened when Niki had the crash, 7.6 in Nurburgring?
I had my own doctor going to all the races,
because the rescue team at that time was very not well-organized.
And then I hired a doctor that speaks...
He graduates from Heidelberg University in German.
He was from Panama, speaks Spanish, Portuguese, French, English, and German.
And I autorised him to go to all the Grand Priests if I had a bad crash.
For example, if I had a burn, it takes to German.
If I had a neuro problem, England.
Well, I had a letter.
Anyway, he was all the Grand Priests with me.
Were you the only driver to take...
At that time, I was the only one.
The only driver to take a doctor with you?
The doctor, he had like a survivor kit with him all the time,
because the tracks didn't have that survivor kit.
It was just before Dr. Watkins.
It was two series before Watkins.
Anyway, after the crash, I'm at the hospital with my wife and Nick's wife.
And my doctor was in sight with the German doctor.
He was a German doctor.
And he comes out and says,
Emerson, he has a 55th chance to survive,
because he doesn't have oxygen on the blood.
We are doing every hour transfusion.
Blood transfusions to keep up the oxygen for Nicky,
because he burned out the player inside the lungs.
He doesn't have enough oxygen to keep up life.
And then it was like midnight.
I was very concerned.
And Daniela Odeto, who was the team manager of Ferrari,
said, Emerson, come here, come here.
I have a call for you.
I pick up the phone, I was engineer of Ferrari.
He said, Emerson, he said, fitipalli.
You voleva kitu guida nel posto di Nicky.
I want you to drive to replace Nicky.
I was shocked.
I said, comandatore, sorry, I cannot talk now.
Put the phone down.
But that's part of the phone, no one.
I was shocked.
So Nicky was fighting for his life next door and Enzo was...
Enzo was trying to hide me to replace,
and then Nicky was 47 days after he was in Monson.
It was a miracle.
It was a miracle.
And Nick was so strong, you know,
mentally he was a fantastic driver.
I understand the lure of your own team.
I understand why you went to Lotus and McLaren.
You've explained that one.
Were you ever seriously tempted by Ferrari
in more normal circumstances?
Not after Nicky's accident,
but, you know, do you wish you'd tick to that box?
I always had the dream to drive a Ferrari.
Because people don't realize,
in 1948, first Ferrari win,
he built like a monopostos, like a Formula 2 car.
They had the Grand Prix cars,
and Enzo Ferrari built a smaller car
and went to racing body.
And my father broadcast the race live to Brazil.
Of course, your father was a Formula 1 journalist, wasn't he?
A radio journalist.
And then, when I met Comendatore,
Ferrari invited me to have lunch in 1971 in Maranello,
the first time I talked to him.
When I arrived there,
he just gave me the hand and said,
Fitti Paldi, come está aqui Colandi.
Because we say in Brazil,
Chico Landi was the first win for Ferrari,
he was a Brazilian driver.
Not many people know this, he's on the book of Ferrari.
And then I called him, I called him Mr.
I never called him Chico,
because he's older than my father.
I called him in Brazil, I said,
Mr. Chico Landi,
first word Ferrari wanted me to drive,
he said, how Chico Landi is doing?
He nearly cried on the phone, it was very emotional to him.
And not many people know this.
First Ferrari win was a Brazilian driver.
You taught me something.
And the week ago I was in Bari,
driving Testa Rosa,
commemorating the 1948 Brazilian win with Ferrari.
And it's interesting, my father was there,
and after the race was the first Ferrari win,
Ferrari had the emblem on his pocket,
and then after one he put on the nose of the car.
After the first win.
After the first Ferrari win.
But when you were with Enzo in 1971,
you were obviously very loyal to Colin Chapman and Lotus,
but did he try again to hire you at another time?
Yes, well, in 1971,
he said, Emerson, I paid double than Colin is paying for you,
but you have to drive the 312 sports cars.
The sports car championship was very important for Ferrari.
And then I say, thank you for the offer,
but I'm focusing Formula One,
and I will continue the Lotus.
It was difficult to refuse the offer from Ferrari.
Particularly when you were so young.
Yes, but I was focused, I was happy with Colin,
and at that time I was focused on Formula One.
I didn't want to drive Le Mans or the sports car race, I said,
but I love Formula, I always focus on Formula.
Can we talk about age quickly?
Because you were incredibly young
at a time when drivers tended to be a bit older than they are today.
And I'm immediately reminded of what Kimmy Antonelli's doing this year.
He's leading the World Championship aged 19.
There must be some parallels with what you went through
at a sort of similar, you're a tiny bit older, but not much older.
How difficult is it to be in the position that Antonelli's in now
when you're so young and raw?
I think one most important thing is to have the support from the team.
And I remember when there was the tragedy of Joaquin,
and Colin called me two weeks later to say,
you'll be number one driver, I said, Colin, I don't have experience.
I was going to be my fourth Grand Prix,
and he said, don't worry, it will support you, the whole team will support you.
And I think Kim Antonelli, if he really has the support,
full support for Mercedes from Toto Wolf,
he can succeed, he has to feel these people behind him,
supporting on the World Championship.
Tell me more about it.
That was important for me when Colin said, we'll give full support to you.
But what does full support from the team mean,
in that you have to be the number one and get all the best equipment,
or is it actually taking pressure off you and saying,
don't worry, whatever happens, we have your back?
Because I feel Mercedes were very much like that with Antonelli last year.
Is that what Colin was like with you in 1970?
I think both.
You feel to have it, everybody motivates to work with you,
and that takes away the tremendous pressure
because they know you are young, you don't have so much experience.
I think both situations, yes, help you for sure, help me a lot.
Colin was always very good.
What didn't you know in 1970,
when you became Lotus's number one after Jochen Rintz's death,
that you did know two years later when you won the World Championship?
What was the biggest thing you learned in those two years?
I think to have more confidence on driving in extreme situations,
like, for example, when Watkins Glen was my first race as number one driver,
I qualified well, but then it was raining on race day.
And I made a big mistake in Monza, I cannot do another mistake.
And all this lack of experience
and lack of self-confidence on extreme situations.
I was too conservative at the beginning of the race,
the US Grand Prix Watkins Glen.
After one year, two years, I never had that again.
And then you have a self-confidence in extreme situations,
you can give 100% and take a risk.
There was the biggest difference in two, three years on my career.
And do you think that still applies today?
So do you think, Antonelli, if we talk about him again,
will he be going on that same journey of self-confidence
that you've experienced?
For sure.
For sure that's going to develop more self-confidence,
less scared to do a mistake.
Because when you are thinking to do a mistake,
you are more proper to do a mistake.
And you are focused to drive fast
and you don't do mistakes so much.
And I think that's a mental perseverance
that when you have experience, you can do it, you can do it
and you are ready to do it.
You never know in Formula One
when you're going to get another opportunity
to fight for the world championship, right?
We've seen that many times over the last 76 years.
For Antonelli, you know, Mercedes, as we sit here in Miami,
still have the best car,
he may not get another opportunity like this.
How do you square that away in your mind?
How do you stop that pressure
creating problems for yourself and mistakes?
I think it's a very difficult answer
because when you start building the world championship,
you start looking, I have a potential to be world champion,
and then you know everything has to be perfect for you.
The car preparation, the setup, the strategy for the race,
now they have all the tire changes, all the strategic,
it must be a tremendous pressure going on through the year.
But it has to be a perfect year
and Antonelli, 100% right, you never know if that comes back ever.
Again, we saw the history of Formula One,
I mean, drivers like Stelling Moss, Ronnie Peterson,
Carlos Reitman, they could be world champion,
and they never achieve because they never come to the opportunity again.
And the question of to be on the right year,
the right place or the right team, it happened.
What about the Italian media?
Because we hear the whole time about how much pressure they put on Ferrari.
Well, Kimi Antonelli is the first Italian to win a Grand Prix
since Giancola Fizzichella 20 years ago.
Do you think they will be sympathetic towards him?
What's your experience of the media in Italy?
I think we have 100% support from the media, it would be fantastic.
I mean, I spent the last four or five years in Italy,
and Monday morning we go to a bar in Italy,
they're talking about the Grand Prix, like football,
like football in Brazil.
And they love motor racing, it's amazing.
Everywhere I go in Italy, they are asking now,
Emerson, how is Kimi? What do you think?
I was in Bari, I have this fantastic event about Ciccolandi,
who's my idol, who's first Brazilian.
And everywhere I went, everybody asked,
and how Kimi, Kimi, they are so enthusiastic.
And they love racing in Italy, and that's fantastic to have Kimi.
Well, Emerson, it's not just the Italians who love racing.
I can't believe we're talking about events that happened 50 years ago,
but your passion for Formula One still shines bright.
It's inspirational, and thank you very much for your time.
Great to catch up again.
Thank you, Tom, that was a great interview.
Just wow!
So much enthusiasm for Formula One in one man,
who turns 80 later this year.
Emerson, thank you for your time.
There is so much to reflect on in this chat,
but let me take one final opportunity to emphasise
what an incredible move it was for Emo to start his own Formula One team
when he was right at the top of his game.
The modern-day equivalent would be someone like Max Verstappen,
starting his own team.
A huge story.
And I'm just sorry it didn't result in more wins and more titles for Emo.
Well, that's almost it for this week, but before I go,
a few parish notices for you.
F1 Nation's review of the Miami Grand Prix is out now.
I'm joined by Lawrence Beretto and James Hinchcliffe
to reflect on Kimmy Antonelli's third win in a row
and what that means for George Russell's title challenge.
And on this week's F1 Explains, Laura Muller answers your questions.
That's out on the F1 Nation feed on Friday.
Thank you very much for listening.
I will, of course, be back next week with another big name
from the world of Formula One.
F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and AudioBoom Studios.
Until next time, keep it flat out.
About this episode
Emerson Fittipaldi looks back on the career moves that defined him: leaving Lotus after a near-miss, finding McLaren’s tiny but highly organized operation, and then taking the bold step of building his own Formula 1 team with his brother. He also reflects on the pressure of title fights, the challenge of ground-effect cars, and the support systems that shaped his rise, from team backing to even bringing his own doctor to races.
Why would a double F1 World Champion at the height of his powers walk away from a winning car? For the 1976 season, Emerson Fittipaldi stunned the sport by leaving McLaren and setting up his own team. He wanted a challenge, and he certainly got one. 50 years later, Emerson tells Tom Clarkson why he and his brother Wilson launched Copersucar, a team based in their home country of Brazil. He also remembers the dramatic events that led him to start his own team – winning the World Championship with Lotus and considering retirement before winning a second title with McLaren, and the conversations with Ferrari which could have changed the course of his career.
Emerson’s passion for F1 still burns bright. He drove his championship-winning M23 in Miami at a McLaren showrun. He also keeps a close eye on every Grand Prix, and gives his views on Kimi Antonelli’s impressive start to the 2026 season.
