Longbow Motors founder: 'Nobody has done this before' #281
Annotations will appear as you listen
0:00
58:04
Car
Tesla Roadster
Term
cylindrical cells
Cylindrical cells are battery cells that are shaped like tubes. They are often used in electric cars because they can store a lot of energy and are very efficient.
Term
three phase AC induction motor
A three phase AC induction motor is a type of motor used in electric cars. It runs on electricity and is very efficient, helping the car to accelerate quickly.
Term
MSRP
MSRP is the price that the car maker suggests dealers sell the car for. It's a starting point for how much you might pay for a new car, but the final price can be higher or lower depending on various factors.
Term
battery
The battery in an electric car stores energy so the car can run. It's like the fuel tank in a gas car, but it holds electricity instead of gasoline.
Car
Tesla Model S
The Tesla Model S is a high-end electric car that can go a long distance on a single charge. It's known for being fast and having a lot of modern technology inside.
Part
18650 cells
18650 cells are a type of battery that looks like a small tube. They're used in many electric cars, including Teslas, to store energy.
Car
Tesla Model Y
The Tesla Model Y is an electric SUV made by Tesla. It's similar to a car but has more space and is designed for families or people who need more room.
Term
weight
Weight is how heavy a car is. A lighter car usually goes faster and handles better than a heavier one.
Term
range
Range is how far a car can go before it needs to be refueled or recharged. It's especially important for electric cars to know how far they can travel on a single charge.
Term
0-60 time
0-60 time is how fast a car can go from a stop to 60 miles per hour. It's often used to show how quickly a car can speed up.
Car
Porsche Boxster
The Porsche Boxster is a small sports car that has a convertible roof. It's designed to be fun to drive, especially on sunny days.
Car
Porsche Cayman
The Porsche Cayman is a two-door sports car made by Porsche. It's known for being fun to drive and has a good balance between performance and comfort.
Car
Alpine A110
The Alpine A110 is a small sports car from a French company called Alpine. It's known for being light and quick, making it fun to drive.
Term
power steering
Power steering makes it easier to turn the steering wheel when driving. It uses special systems to help you steer without using too much strength, especially when parking or going slow.
Term
unassisted rack
An unassisted rack is a type of steering that doesn't have any help from power steering. This means you have to use more strength to turn the wheel, which can give you a better feel for the road.
Concept
track day
A track day is when people take their cars to a racetrack to drive fast and have fun. It's a safe place to see how well your car performs without worrying about traffic.
Car
Lotus Elise
The Lotus Elise is a small, light sports car that's fun to drive on racetracks. Many people take it to track days because it's very good at handling curves and going fast.
Term
passive suspension
Passive suspension is a type of car suspension that doesn't change automatically. It uses springs and shock absorbers to keep the ride smooth but doesn't adapt to different road conditions while driving.
Term
performance derivatives
Performance derivatives are special versions of cars that are made to go faster and handle better. They usually have upgrades that make them more fun to drive.
Part
semi-tuning damper
A semi-tuning damper is a part of the car's suspension that helps make the ride smoother and more controlled. It can be adjusted a little to fit how you want the car to handle.
Term
rear drive
Rear drive means that the back wheels of the car are the ones that get the power from the engine. This setup can help the car handle better, especially when driving fast.
Term
infotainment system
An infotainment system is the technology in cars that provides music, navigation, and other information. It helps you stay connected and entertained while driving.
Term
air conditioning
Air conditioning in a car is what keeps the inside cool and comfortable when it's hot outside. It helps you feel better during your drive.
Term
hyperscreen
Hyperscreen is a big, curved screen in some cars that shows everything from maps to music. It's like having a giant tablet in your car that controls many things at once.
Term
Apple CarPlay
Apple CarPlay lets you use your iPhone in your car, showing apps and maps on the car's screen so you can drive safely and stay connected.
Term
driver assistance systems
Driver assistance systems are features in cars that help you drive more safely, like keeping you in your lane or helping you stop if something is in front of you.
Term
homologation
Homologation is a way to make sure a car is safe and meets rules before it can be sold. It's like getting a stamp of approval that says the car is good to go.
Term
two-seater sports cars
Two-seater sports cars are cars made for two people that are built for speed and fun to drive. They usually have strong engines and are lighter than regular cars.
Car
Porsche 911
The Porsche 911 is a famous sports car that has been around for a long time. It's known for its unique shape and powerful performance, making it a favorite among car enthusiasts.
Car
Chevrolet Corvettes
The Chevrolet Corvette is a fast and stylish sports car that many people love. It's famous for being powerful and fun to drive, and it's often seen as a symbol of American car culture.
Car
Hyundai Ioniq
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 is a new electric car that looks modern and cool. It runs on electricity instead of gas, which means it's better for the environment and can save you money on fuel.
Car
MG Cyberster
The MG Cyberster is a new electric car that looks sporty and stylish. It’s designed to be fun to drive while being good for the environment since it runs on electricity instead of gas.
Car
Mclaren 570S
The McLaren 570S is a super-fast sports car designed for people who love speed and precision driving. It’s built to be lightweight and powerful, giving drivers an exciting experience on the road.
LIVE
Dude, did you order?
The new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon. The best 5G network in America.
It never looks so good.
You look the same.
But with this camera, everything looks better, especially me.
You haven't changed your hair in 15 years. Selfies?
Shark, please.
New and existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever,
with eligible phone trade-in and unlimited ultimate.
Any condition guaranteed. Best 5G source, root metrics at the United States,
1H 25, all rights reserved, trade-in and additional terms apply for all offers.
C Verizon.com for details.
Think enterprise software is too costly, too complex and takes too long to get up and running?
Think again.
Workday Go makes simplifying your small or mid-sized business simple.
HR and finance together on one powerful AI platform right at your fingertips.
Workday Go gets you live fast and fits the needs of your business.
Find out what Workday Go can do for you.
Go with Workday Go.
Welcome back to the intercooler podcast, everybody.
The podcast powered by car finance specialist JBR Capital.
This is episode 281 with Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel.
And we're joined by a guest today, Daniel Davy.
Daniel, thanks for coming in.
Daniel is one of the founders of a British EV sports car startup called Longbow.
Andrew, we spoke about Longbow a few weeks ago on the podcast.
We did. And we said, wouldn't it be great if one of the founders would come on and talk to us about it?
And lo and behold, here we are.
There you are.
That is the power of the intercooler podcast.
So we want to do this, Daniel, because as far as we can tell,
you guys have come almost from nowhere with two fantastic looking little cars
that make some quite bold claims about performance and weight and price.
And we wanted to understand who you guys were, where you've come from, what your backgrounds are,
more about the company itself, more about the cars, more about the technology,
as much as you can tell us.
And so maybe there'll be people listening to this and watching this who haven't heard of Longbow.
So what's the sort of 60-second pitch?
Could I just quickly jump in and say also, just from a sort of credibility point of view,
because we have heard in the past of brave little startups which have ended up not coming to anything.
You have also managed, and I think this is really significant,
to attract some very big hitters from the industry to come and support you.
And these are not the sort of people who tend to do things on a wing and a prayer.
They are clearly serious people and they wouldn't do it if they didn't believe in the project.
So I think that's just from a sort of point of view of credibility.
It's good to sort of get it, and we'll find out, you'll tell us who they are
and why they're there and what they're going to be doing.
But yeah, tell us about Longbow.
Where did it come from, what was the idea behind it, what do you plan to achieve?
Yeah, I mean, you always have to start with your true north or your destination.
So for us it's changing how the earth feels about sports cars.
So that's our mission as a company.
And that comes from our experience very early on in the industry
where we think the almost genesis of the EV movement was the Tesla Roadster.
So I joined Tesla 2010 with the Tesla Roadster, employee 650 globally,
working on the UK and the German market.
When no one had heard of Elon, no one could spell Telsa as it was asked.
Is that what you had?
Yeah, yeah.
So were you based up at Lotus?
No, so the European headquarters for Tesla at the time was in Maidenhead.
So I was based in Maidenhead, spent some time in Munich,
which was the Dach headquarters at the time as well.
And actually, my first four months at Tesla were in Deer Creek.
So Palo Alto, the headquarters of Tesla at the time, the Bullring as it was referred to.
So actually that time and that moment at Tesla there was incredible.
The people you spent every day with, the vision of the company,
everyone thinks you can't do it.
Look, Mary Barra has slagged off Tesla in the press again using that as fuel to kind of power you.
Whilst at the time at Tesla thinking this is actually very, very challenging
and you almost believe the press at the time.
But that product, the Roadster, which in many ways was a compromise product
because it was an lease a little bit wider, a little bit longer.
Everyone likens it to a sprinter with a very heavy backpack.
You had the earliest battery technology all over the rear wheel.
But it was a phenomenal product to have and it was such a great experience.
And the first application of what is now the way everyone builds electric vehicles,
which is using cylindrical cells mostly and having a power electronics module
and then a three phase AC induction motor around it.
And then Tesla stopped building those in around 2012, I think last one was delivered,
2,500 were delivered and then no one has done anything since.
Exactly.
And some would say, is that not in itself?
Something to be cautious about.
It did it once, it's not perceived out there to have succeeded.
And people sort of like ran away and haven't come back.
But you guys have.
I mean, rejecting that premise a little bit, it was a successful program.
If you say a car company is delivering 800 cars a year for a total run of 2,500 cars
at a £150,000 price point, that's success.
That's not failure if you look at the vehicle on its own.
And so there is no, it can't be done.
It has already been done when no one knew about the brand,
no one bought into technology and there were any kind of head
when you could imagine no charging infrastructure.
So it has been done.
It can be done.
It is a successful strategy to take.
Even if you say as a new brand, it was successfully done by a new brand at the time as well.
So the first point is it can absolutely be done.
It has already been done at a time when there are a lot more headwinds at a higher price.
And we strongly believe that since then things have only gotten better for this product segment.
So weight is much, much lower than it used to be or energy density is greater.
The available suppliers, we spoke to Mark Tarpening who was the actual co-founder of Tesla.
And he said at the time when they were looking to build the car,
obviously they contract manufacturers through Lotus for the platform, bodywork, etc.
But when Tesla was looking to build the powertrain and the battery,
they couldn't find engineers that could do 12 volts, let alone 400 volts.
So you had to, and I remember being in Deer Creek with the,
which was this old HP building and you had three floors.
Top floor was business stuff.
Middle floor was assembly of battery modules and motors.
Bottom floor was in the caves was where they were engineering Model S.
And in the middle floor in this big open,
it was literally a guy taking 18650 cells out of a cardboard box,
putting them into a mould, slathering it with glue,
and then that's how Tesla built the battery packs.
Whereas today, and at each point, I think over the last,
when you follow it as long as I have,
at each point when people say,
well, this is the battery capacity required to build this number of vehicles,
everyone says, well, that exceeds today's battery capacity by 10x.
And we've crossed that threshold at least three or four times since I've heard that narrative.
And this has all happened in 15 years.
It's all happened in 15 years.
All the things you need, all the ingredients to build an electric car,
an electric sports car over the last 15 years
have probably seen the greatest investment
in shift and transformation in automotive history.
But okay, I guess the fundamental question is,
but why when people who listen to this will be so used to
and loving of conventional internal combustion,
particularly with small light sports cars with gearboxes,
which make wonderful sounds,
why are you choosing to be different
and not just go down the path of least resistance,
where you know that there is a market
and where you know people will not have any trouble
persuading them as to the fundamental philosophy behind your car
and yet you're deciding to do something completely different?
I think again on that,
I would challenge that a little bit
because until we launched what we're doing,
we didn't know whether we were lunatics
and no one actually want this,
but since we've come out to the world
and shown the vehicles and what we're intending to do,
we've seen nothing but universal excitement about the project,
where in other areas you might say you should have an IC,
I haven't really seen that,
even in the deepest, darkest depths of the Lotus forums.
So no one is saying to you, that's a great looking car,
it looks amazing, the spec looks amazing,
but wouldn't be just great if you had an internal,
that's not a conversation that you obviously have.
There's a lot of those already, aren't there?
Because then we'd just be like, oh, you're just doing that,
but with a slightly different exterior.
There is, I think there's a growing excitement about it,
part of the reason we were able to have the conversations
with Mike and Michael and Dan
and bring people on board on the board is that
I think they deeply know this is possible
and they really want someone to do it.
Sure.
And no one has the gumption to actually take,
you know, break from the mall perhaps
and not look at where we are today
or where we've been for the last 10 years,
and really clean sheet what's possible today.
If you ignore that and you look at the ingredients,
you look at how far the markets come, what's possible today.
And the final piece is, I would say,
often is 95% of this car is a regular lightweight sports car.
Fundamentally the only thing that's changed
is the powertrain.
But no one's done that,
so no one has kept 95% of the car the same
and looked at, okay, what happens
if a modern cutting edge electric powertrain
into the right ingredients for a lightweight sports car,
what's the output?
No one's done that since Tesla really.
They haven't.
And the reason I think that the response
has been so positive so far is that
you have approached it in the way
that a true car enthusiast would,
the cars are light, they appear to be compact.
They don't have massive amounts of power,
which is the route that all others have gone so far.
And with that comes a massive amount of weight and expense.
You've done it in the right way,
the way that enthusiasts would do it.
And I think that's why people like us have gone,
ooh, that's quite interesting.
But listen, we'll come onto the cars,
we'll come onto those heavy heat hitters
that Andrew alluded to earlier.
Can we talk a little bit about the company itself?
Longbow, I love the name.
Where did that name come from?
Who gets the credit for the idea?
Naming anything is very challenging.
It's so tough.
We know.
Let's just flesh it out a little bit.
You need to be able to get to the web domains.
You need the social media handles.
You need to be able to protect it by law, trade market.
It's so difficult.
So it's very hard.
And actually when we were going through,
so we had a placeholder name or a stealth name
that we had as a business, which was Ether.
So the fifth element was the idea around it,
the thing that binds everything together.
But really, I think Longbow mainly came from when we realized
that as a product and as a company,
we want to be quintessentially British.
And then it's looking at,
so really if you want to know the real reason,
a Longbow is an intersection of craftsmanship
and development with the expertise of a Longbowman.
So without either, both are useless.
So it's the symbiotic relationship of a Longbow with a Longbowman.
And so our drivers in this regard are the Longbowman
or guild members as we call them.
So you need a beautiful product,
but without a driver it's nothing,
and without the driver that...
So that's really where Longbow comes from.
And for us that, yes, at that time
that was the height of technological advancement,
how you're bending you into that shape
based on all this experience.
And they're probably composite bows, weren't they,
using different words?
They weren't actually.
So most...
I'm such a nerd.
Keep going.
So most bows that would have a 200 plus pound draw,
so if you look at that,
Mongolian composite hornbow were composites.
The Longbow, which is why it's so long,
was not a composite bow uniquely.
Composite bows are technically better,
but I won't say that because the name was Longbow,
but the British were able to mass produce the Longbow
because it didn't require the same level of expertise
that was needed for a composite bow.
You just needed a U-tree and a bow-ya to create a Longbow.
And if you had a bunch of people with Longbows
up against a bunch of people with crossbows,
the guys with crossbows lost.
Always, yeah, because it's how often you control.
Exactly.
So what the crossbow allowed you to do
is you didn't then require the expertise.
So a crossbow is...
Anyone can do it.
A crossbow is all your treacher control settings,
your ABS.
It's a crossbow.
Liking in the analogy.
Right, and a Longbow requires...
Because you have to start at the age of four
to develop the ability to do a 200-pound draw,
and it's not doing it once.
It's doing it repeatedly for hours.
Wow.
It's not a skill.
There's a skill in it,
but it's the developing over time,
the musculature and the physiology.
But once you can do it,
in terms of what would the measure be?
Arrows per second or arrows per minute?
It's probably that.
It's hours per minute multiplied by distance
multiplied by accuracy.
Those are probably the three you would look at.
No leather metrics.
Yeah, apparently.
There we go.
We're at our...
That's why you're here.
It's great.
So tell us about your co-founders.
Who else is...
Who do you work with?
Yeah, Mark Tapscott, Yenny Kaizu.
Those are my two co-founders.
So Mark is very much the engine room
of the company.
Background, actually,
from a design perspective,
but then was only on a Nitron racing.
So I was involved in the Thrust SSC record
that Nitron were used for.
And built gentlemen releases
or plastic pigs as a business
and was very much focused on that before
someone at Tesla took him for a test drive
and realized that this is the future.
So when I left Tesla the first time around,
that's when Mark joined Tesla
to then effectively build the UK business
roadster SX3 Model Y.
Yeah.
And then Yenny Kaizu is joining us
as chair.
Before this she took Exshore,
which was a Swedish electric boating business
from nothing to start a production
across two models, all the fundraising rounds,
all the building of that.
And before that she was a lawyer
and private equity and other VC businesses.
So she's very much come from,
yes, hard tech or deep tech as it's called now,
but before that has spent a lot of time
in the investment world.
And that's somewhere where Mark and I
haven't had experience.
We've been head down looking at how you build
brands and build electric car companies
for the last 15 years.
And then Yenny approaches it more from a
how do you build the governance
and the right company to bring
the right investment in and look at the future
so you're not looking at the drawing board
every day.
So how long ago was the first conversation
presumably between you and Mark
where you sort of said, yeah, let's give it a go?
2019.
Actually, we started off
in a very different direction.
So we started off on the premise that
you should be taking existing cars
and electrifying them as existing brands
and electrifying them.
So we're on a journey with
some British manufacturers, some US
manufacturers that build lightweight
internal combustion engine vehicles
looking at how you amend that
vehicle and that product and that brand
to align it with an electric powertrain
and weren't a long way down the road
of how you engineer that.
So speaking to every major
engineering and contract manufacturing
business to understand how they view
that should be done.
That's almost the groundwork before long
though and we then realized
you actually as a compromise
if you use an existing brand
you're compromising the future product
and you're compromising the historical product
and you're compromising...
But because they were never meant to be together.
Exactly.
That is not this.
These things are not the same.
And that's when we got to the point
well actually the best way to do this
is clean sheet as a brand and as a product
because then it's
easier from product perspective,
arguably harder from a brand perspective
because you don't have any
provenance to lean into
but that's the genesis.
That's when the conversation started
I think.
When I was a trainee with it had been
2023
just shortly after she left
Exshaw.
Right.
Dude, did you order?
The new iPhone 17 Pro
got it from Verizon
the best 5G network in America.
It never looked so good.
You look the same.
But with this camera
everything looks better
especially me.
You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.
Selfies?
Shark please.
New and existing customers
can get the new iPhone 17 Pro
the most powerful iPhone ever.
With eligible phone trade-in
and unlimited ultimate
any condition guaranteed
best 5G source root metrics
at the United States
1H 2025 all rights reserved
trade-in and additional terms
apply for all offers
see Verizon.com for details.
This is Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad.
Boost Mobile gives you
the same network coverage
speed and service you're used to
just at a more affordable price.
Why pay more if you don't have to?
Offering reliable nationwide
coverage backed by a 30-day
money-back guarantee.
Love your service
or get your money back
no questions asked.
Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store
or head to boostmobile.com
to learn more.
After 30 gigabytes
customers may experience slower speeds.
Customers who cancel
within 30 days of activation
will have boost service fees refunded.
Activation fees if applicable
and phone payments
will not be refunded.
Let's talk about the cars
that you've so far announced
two models the Roadster
and Speedster.
They look fantastic.
Who designed them?
They look brilliant.
So we work together with
so we don't always want
every member
or every part of the longbow
route to market
isn't it all being in our company
we don't believe in
large empires of procrastinating.
So part of this has been looking at
what do you do internally
what do you do externally.
And for that we used
work with Chris and Jonathan Gould
for the event design.
So we were very clear
on what the product is from the beginning
from the beginning
it was always a speedster
the performance characteristics were important
and actually we started with the
the business plan
engineering manufacturing feasibility study
before we even arrived
at designing the product
and then working with them
on exactly the design of the vehicle.
And so these this information
these numbers are freely available on your website
the speedster which is
the screenless open top thing
you say it'll do not 62
in three and a half seconds
weight 895 kilograms
with a 275 mile range
costing 84,995 pounds
and the Roadster
which is actually a coupe
with a roof
not 62 in 3.6 seconds
a little bit heavier at 995 kilograms
280 mile range
costing 64,995 pounds
and it's those numbers that really
caught my attention
apart from the way the cars look
it's those numbers
these are super light cars
you guys call them featherweight
electric vehicles
like it's a new category
and the big question is how
you know when no one else has done this
when every other comparable car
and we know that Porsche
is coming out with electric versions
the new versions of the Cayman and Boxter
and we know that there's going to be
a new electric Alpine A110
they're not going to be as light as this
nothing light
if any of them will be in half a ton
I would be amazed
and the sort of common wisdom here
is that EVs are heavy
because the batteries are very heavy
but you appear to have given these cars
very decent range
275 and 280 miles
but still they're very very light
and they're not crazy expensive
so I would like to know
and people listening to this
I'm sure would like to know
how is that possible
normally you can only have two of those things
you can have a light car
with a good range
but it'll be expensive
you know any sort of variation
of those three but having three together
so far has not been possible
I think first of all no one's tried
I think that's probably right
so no one's tried
it's not that it's not possible
it's no one has tried
I can assure you it's possible
it's not just possible
it is the plan
us sitting there
and everything we can do that
after a long exercise
of the feasibility engineering manufacturing
and the work we're doing currently
to actually build that product
as we're talking about it
but I'd also say
something we figured out recently
if you just took our powertrain
as it is and put that in the original Tesla Roadster
it would weigh under a ton
and that car was not designed
the Tesla would weigh under a ton
just the advancements we talked about earlier
what did it weigh about $1,300 or?
$1,250, $1,300
so just doing that
would reduce the weight of that car
and that's just benefit
we start talking about the benefits over the last 15 years
how the industries come along
and that's before you look at all the other advancements
in other areas so
material sciences around exteriors
Bondic Street Aluminium
chassis technology and understanding of that
after the S1S2 programs
everything that's come since then
wheels are lighter
everything is lighter in general across the industry
so is what you're saying is that there is nothing
there is no sort of
the car doesn't contain any technological
breakthrough
it's all quite conventional stuff
but put together in a way that's never been done before
and obviously put together in a way
that's being very carefully thought out
to always make sure that weight is kept
to a minimum which has allowed you
to do this
which hasn't in terms of the technology
is breaking new ground
or is it all still
there will be a few things that I can't talk about now
that will be there's one thing we can
talk about which is the application of module
to chassis technology so
very simply normally a battery pack
you build a battery pack you glue it all together
and you stick it in a car so you have a chassis
and the battery that strengthens the chassis
actually the chassis should be the battery pack
so for us
we will have a lid on a part of the battery pack
that is acting as the chassis
and your modules are fastened
and secured to that not glued in
so is this like
when
racing car in the late 60s the engine started
to become fully stressed members of the
yes
and didn't have to be carried in a separate subframe anymore
correct
that is the closest application of it
I think that it became a stress member
I think the slight deviation there
is the chassis is already a stress member
and the battery isn't adding to it being
a stress member so in other EVs
because it's glued into almost a block
then the stressors run through it
you don't want the stress running through your battery modules
the stressors run around the outside
and the batteries are free to sit there
but by not making them
stressed you reduce
all the complexity and costs and glues
and adhesives and all those things that go into it
and also it makes it much easier to
replace in the future
if you want to
300,000 miles
and 80% of range isn't enough for you
and you want new modules in
you're not throwing away the whole
everything you're replacing the module side
of it so it gives you flexibility
in the future and we talk about
not circularity but immortality
so a car that lasts 100 years
and designing a car from the beginning
that is not designed
for circularities designed to stay on the road
because the best car is the most expensive car
in the world stay on the road
so part of that is when we think
about the chassis and the batteries
that thought goes into it as well
so let's talk a little bit
about the light weighting
a little bit more about that
so are you using very very expensive
carbon fibres
and all this stuff that's just chewing into your margins
on these cars or is it actually just
intelligent design
clever application of material
of sensible materials
that's how you've achieved it really isn't it
we will
avoid any use of carbon fibre
because it's the least sustainable material
you could possibly put into anything
so per kilogram
it's 10 times worse than most things
and it's 50 times worse than the aluminium
we'll be using so carbon fibre
we do not want to use carbon fibre
at all
it's carbon so it's
so carbon fibre is per kilogram
probably has the highest
carbon cost of any material on the planet
there will be loads of exceptions to that
but material is generally an automotive
it's exactly as you say
and most of it's actually what should
not be in the car
failing a steering wheel
and four wheels and whatever it takes
to make that work
that's what should be in the car
so they're quite paired back
quite driver focus simple cars
I wouldn't say simple I would say curated
it's
you've got two elements in a car
and one of the minimum
you need to get you from A to B
and then it's things on top of that
that are helping to create that experience
within the vehicle that you want to create
and I think that's where we're focused
so for us theatre
driver engagement
tactile engagement
within the drive are very important for us
so if a
some form of shifter
or experience around shifting
adds five or ten
or twenty kilograms of weight
more than a button will do it
because that's more important
at that point so it's always this
more important to have the interaction
the tactile interaction
for us you've got to be very
fastidious on your weight bomb
and your price bomb
your bill of materials for both weight and price
to hit that
those parameters you talked about
and the price we've talked about
you know not so much where it's just
engineers focused on engineering everything out
and not so much
focus on design where that adds a bit of weight
and then
the third element then is the driver engagement
and it's always keeping a lens and finding where you
make compromises on
some areas in order to benefit others
so just a couple of things where so presumably
will it car have power steering
or is it an unassisted rack
it will be an unassisted rack
yeah great love that
that'll save a bit of weight
we're oscillating between those two because obviously
there's a weight cost
but as you
go through the different iterations of trialing
you end up because again we're not building
a mark one
it needs to be livable
it's not a purely
track focused car it is a
okay so it's a usable car
it's design for on-road performance
it is a daily driver that's what it's designed for
more so that than a track car
it is absolutely not designed as a track car
that is not in any way the intention of the vehicle
okay but nevertheless it is a car that would
feel at home on a track
when you strip weight
and you just do that
inherently yeah
going through loops to make a
track focused variant of the vehicle
if you look at it you think
if you just look at the car and your natural reaction to it
you can think to yourself gosh I mean that's the sort of car
that you might expect to see in a track day
it's just because it is in the same way
that you look at an Elise which is a road
car but you go to any track day
and there will always be a couple of Elise's
knocking about there yeah I mean we
don't be surprised if we look
at track variants down the road
that's not the focus of the core vehicle
purely passive suspension on the car
yes at the
moment there are some interesting things
we're looking at but yes
again from a weight perspective we just want to
get that core tuned vehicle where it
needs to be yeah and again
look at core vehicle versus derivatives
and performance derivatives later on
so everything I'm saying is around
the the elemental vehicle
that most customers will get versus
the derivatives we build off of that
because you know
semi-tuning damper
the things that people want when they play around their car
can be a performance option that
we add for people who want that but
that's not our core audience we want
almost anyone who wants to get a sports car
that doesn't
do did you order
the new iPhone 17 Pro
got it from Verizon the best 5G
network in America it never looks so good
you look the same but with this
camera everything looks better especially me
you haven't changed your hair in 15 years
selfies
shark please
new and existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro
designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever
with eligible phone trade in an unlimited ultimate
any condition guaranteed best 5G source root metrics
the United States 1H 125 all rights reserved
traded in additional terms apply for all offers
see Verizon.com for details
think enterprise software is too costly
too complex and takes too long to get up and running
think again
Workday Go makes
simplifying your small or mid-sized
business simple
HR and finance together
on one powerful AI platform
right at your fingertips
Workday Go gets you live fast
and fits the needs of your business
find out what Workday Go can do for you
Go with
Workday Go
into tinkering once it straight out of the box
a car that's going to drive
in the way we want it to drive
again curated versus
fully customizable
single motor
rear drive
lithium ion battery
yeah
so this is a car that's kind of born for the open
road
yeah exactly that more than anything else
you've had a tough day
you want to go out for a drive
or you want to go to
call on the weekend when it's not
torrential rain
so you'll still have
all the sort of
necessary niceties
to make a car a daily driver
seriously have an infotainment system in there
air conditioning in the roadster
again
drawing a differentiation between the
speedster and the roadster where
speedster on its own because it's ruthless
and screenless will be very raw and elemental
yeah
but as you look at the roadster absolutely
air conditioning infotainment system
but never
infotainment system hyperscreen
distraction
it's something you can choose to opt into
if you want to be distracted from the
elemental theater of the vehicle
so we won't have huge screens
based experience in the vehicle
but you'll be able to
connect your phone
yeah absolutely
it's a requirement
you can't say it's a car you can take everywhere
but we don't have a phone mount
and there's no apple carplay and you've got to
hope your copilot is
and in terms of
the dreaded
driver assistance systems
you have to have those don't you
do you not have to have lane keeper
so the volumes will be such that you can
duck under the requirements for that
how does that all work
we will always meet
the required homologation standards
and features
but not with a view to exceed them
I think we see them as a distraction
so we'll meet them in order to meet any
relevant homologations and that's different
by vehicle as well as speedster roadster
sorry talking of homologation will you
homologate this vehicle so it could be sold
anywhere in the world
and the mission changed how the earth feels
about sports cars so that can't
have all of our cars delivered
in the southwest of England for that
obviously from speedster to roadster
you're looking at different homologation standards
but the aim is
global sports cars are sold
in Europe, Japan, North America
those are the key markets to hit
so it's striking that
these cars are not horribly expensive
85,000 for the speedster
65,000 for the roadster
sensibly priced
but you're presumably very confident
that at that sort of money
there's a sensible business plan around
this whole project
yeah sensibly specced
before talking about a focus on the bill of materials
if we wanted the car
to do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds
your weight, your cost
everything goes up
so it's again
aligning and agreeing on
what is the ticket price
entry price from a 0-60
range perspective that people need
versus maybe vanity
and Mark always talks about
no one needs a car that can drive across the Yangtze
if you want to build a car that can drive across the Yangtze
it's not going to be 65,000 pounds
it's going to be
so again it's what's not in it
very core focus on what is in it
is there also something else
going on here and I'm just thinking back
to the points you made about the Tesla
and I guess the roadster
that is and I guess the
greatest job that car did
was make the world aware of the brand
and I presume
you're not just going to build these two cars
and stop there
presumably these cars are designed to be
to be striking
to get at people's attention
to get the name Longbow registered in people's head
and it may therefore be
that
I mean Alpine did this didn't they
built the A110 and have now kind of
used that as a spring ball having got
the name sort of re-registered in people's mind
to build other cars which are less
extreme and probably come
with bigger margins attached to them so presumably
you're playing a long game
and this is just that these two cars
are just the first act of that
and actually part of their job
from you as from a business point of view
is to get everybody familiar
with the brand before you go and do
all the other things that you've got in the pipeline
is that a fair assumption to make
that's where you have to start
you know you talked before around
why have some of these projects failed
I think you need to be laser focused on what you're doing
so
if you look at sports cars
200,000 two-seater sports cars are sold a year
of which 50,911
40,000 Corvettes
really
and
Ferrari have the best margin in the
industry and the products they're selling
they put that together and you could say
Ferrari is an outlier but I mean
if there's an outlier you go after there's one there
so do you build a car that's not
you know and again
volumes right, 2000, 3000
but we're looking at 10,000 a year
by 2030 is our aspiration
goodness
so that's bigger than, it's quite a lot
bigger than Aston Martin is now
but Aston Martin doesn't cost
£65,000
but it's okay but
you're not talking about building
10,000 roadsters and speeds
there are other products going to come along
which may or may not cost £65,000
and then if you want to build a product to sell more
volume you need to be very laser focused on
what you're going after and which markets you're going after
so if you know because people will
pretty much want what they have before
but then you need to give them a reason to
change and that reason could be
technology
it could be a better drive, it could be
brand, there's a number of reasons you can
dive into their value of the vehicle
so how well does it keep its residual value
there are a load of things you can bake
into that but yeah
the market is absolutely there for
10,000 vehicles a year, it's a
5% of the sports car market
well
you'll be well aware
of all the British
sports car start-ups that have come and gone
even those resurrecting
famous brand names
it's a tricky, tricky
thing to do, I'm not telling you anything you don't know
why is it that
you guys are going to buck that trend
I think being realistic
I think is one
so having a business plan that's realistic and achievable
and that's based on our
experience having done this
and knowing what isn't achievable, what is achievable
and it's leaning into
like Michael, Dan
what's achievable, what's not achievable
that's the first thing
so I think from the very beginning
building a stretch
but achievable business plan and model
and specs on the vehicle
I think that's the first one
and I think
we've come
we're doing this despite having done it before
so
a lot of people will say
I spent 30 years at Mercedes
and ended up as
Global Vice President of Ex, I'm the best person to launch a car brand
so you have no idea how to launch a car brand
you have no idea how to build a lightweight sports car
because you've never had to do that
your career is meeting to meeting to meeting
speaking to board, meeting meeting meeting
journalists
Mark and I have grawled over delivering
in the face of all odds
so
Tesla for me, then Lucid
Mark was involved in launching BYD
in other parts of the world
involved in looking at organisational
structure for Porsche design on how they do
direct-to-consume
this is our career
at the business end
and the same thing from
from nothing to delivering those products
we've done this before
and where we have gaps
that's how we built our advisory board
so we can just go and ask
we don't know how to do this
Mike or Michael or Dan
this is what I did there and there
let's talk about the advisory board
just before we do
I'm just trying to think of questions
which people will be desperate for us
what are you going to sound like
are you going to just let it sound completely natural
or are you going to have some kind of sound
symposer in it
and also you kind of mention
gear changes
earlier in the conversation
is there going to be something you're going to be doing to
synthesise that
we all know about what I and I have
did with the i5N
and much as we were probably
a bit sniffy about it until we tried it
once we tried it we absolutely loved it
so
simplicity, authenticity
and connectedness
are three very, they are core
business principles
that we are probably under
the
but theatre
is important and no one has looked at
so when everyone thinks of electric vehicles
if we say we're building an electric
2C to sports car
everyone thinks of a Tesla with our roof
or they think of
a Hyundai Ioniq with our roof
or they think of a BWD with our roof
because no one has done
or they think of a hypercar like a Batista
or a Verra
they are thinking those two ends
no one has done this before
so
and typically electric vehicles
are D segment SUVs
which are built
to remove theatre
they should drive themselves
and get you from A to B in the lowest possible price
per mile
so everyone thinks if an EV
is soulless you don't know a D segment
SUV is soulless
so it would be like comparing
an
an Elva
to a
X5
that's an Elva
that's built around theatre and it has
an IC power train in it
it does not be able to do X5
which is not designed around theatre
but the first thing there is an EV is not inherently
without theatre
D segment SUVs are without theatre
and all the EVs on the road
are not sports cars in that regard
so that's the first thing
and then the other thing is
if you think about ICs
a lot of theatre in the vehicle is introduced
you turn on a V8
and it revs it doesn't need to do that
that's not a requirement of getting from it
not being on to being on
is
the initial
the dial going up and the lights coming on
is not required
that's introduced
and even engine harmonics
noise harmonics in engines are
introduced they are tuned in a way specifically
to make it sound better because it's also tuned
so you're inherently an ICE
doesn't have theatre
it is also introduced and it's
authentically manufactured or extracted
from what you're putting in place
so those are the first two points
and no one's tried it
everyone's looked at it from engineering that out
as a bug
it needs to be silent
so for us
how do you authentically
with that powertrain in the vehicle
deliver the theatre
that should come from that powertrain
and we're the first to do it
so we almost get a chance to decide
what is a shifting experience in a lightweight
electric sports car
so we'll sit down
what is it, well it's not that or this
we like that, we don't like that
can you shed any light on what you're thinking is at the moment
tactile
so again most of it is how you
have your interior experience
how do you experience the cockpit of the vehicle
and again it's
looking at ICE
from a cockpit experience
and what is good and what shouldn't be in there
what's a distraction
can you name any ones that you particularly like from that point of view
I mean
if you look at what Ditto Masso have done
it's phenomenal
it's phenomenal
really and also Gordon Murray
how they're thinking about the interior
it's not
spartan, it's not spartan
but it's very focused, it's very curated
and things like
the spiker
the way you make
your shifter jewellery or part of that experience
forget all the noise that you maybe get in vehicles like that
so it's really looking at the different
parts that should be in there
do you want flappy paddle gearbox
if you are shifting or is that why are you doing that
that's not
we're trying to get people engaged
into it because you want to go out and drive this thing
and feel that you're in control
and also and to a degree
manufacture certain elements because
it puts a smile on your face
but not to the point where
it sounds like a UFO floating around
and you've got to do loads of sequence of things to get a thing
it needs to be
the user
it's UX, user experience
and UI, user interface
how are you interfacing with
interacting with that vehicle
that's how we are, I'm not going to tell you more details
because there's some, I don't want to steal a thunder butt
that's how we think about it
very much so
clearly there's only so much you're prepared to say at the moment
which is understandable
but it's encouraging to me that
that tactility even within an EV
is absolutely front and centre for you
for these cars
absolutely, that's what it's about
if it's not an involving
driving experience
why on earth are you doing it
then you're a cyberster
exactly and then also
and your weight's up there because it doesn't matter
because you can put it front and centre
so let's talk about this
advisory board, you announced it a few weeks ago
and
some of the names on there are extremely familiar
Mike Fluitt, Andrew
30 seconds on Mike Fluitt
well I mean certainly most famous for
having been the Boston McLaren
for many years
he sort of came in around about the time
the P1 was being launched
and really all the McLarens
that we know and love today
are at least in part
fluid cars, all the way through the
the 570S up to the 720
and all those amazing ultimate
series cars that we have more
stand at the
Scramble
and he was in charge, I can't remember how many years he was in charge
at McLaren for
but the way that
the products that we
so admire from McLaren
largely got that way
through him
and also a proper
although he came to McLaren
because
they'd had a difficult launch
without him and they were having trouble
sort of productionizing the cars
and he came from a history of sort of
running Ford factories
and so he came along
to sort of make the business run properly
but he is a proper proper car guy
and he understands light weighting
I mean he races the latest of the land
so he completely
understands
and will be a sort of key influence
and a fantastically
valuable source of advice
when you're trying to do this kind of car
and Michael van der Sander
who was M.D. Alpine
a guy I've done a little bit of work with
great guy
as an aside he's tall
will he fit in your cars?
He's very tall
he definitely sits outside of the
I think he's 98th percentile
97th percentile
I'm reasonably tall, my dad's 6'4
if my dad couldn't fit in our cars I think
he'd be in trouble
he doesn't bother going home again
but you've got to find a line on it again
it can't be everything
you have to be very focused
on what the vehicle is when it isn't
is it as good a driving experience
for someone who's 6'8
as it is for someone who's 6'
probably not because we wouldn't optimize around it
but it would be manageable
he was more recently
head of Jaguar Land Rover's special vehicle operations
there's a third as well
another down I think
from Aston Martin
he was president CEO of Lotus
until
three months ago
talk about heavy hitters
and talk about guidance
and advice for you and your co-founders
what kind of a difference
has that advisory board made so far?
huge
there's not ego
this is not an ego journey
it's not
Dan, Mark, any cars
we have
a clear focus on what we want to build as a company
and products that we want to build
and it's bringing as many smart people around the table
who know how to do that and then listening to them
that's the focus
your advisory board is not just there as
jewelry to garnish your
investor decks and to put on your website
you bring the people in that
have the best experience to help you
get where you want to get
and not just experience the best people
because all three of them
are phenomenal human beings as well first
they really are
great to engage with
they're super professional, they're very clear
and concise, very experienced
but also
everything about doing that makes sense
they won't for the sake of showing
how capable they are
change it to their own flavour
they're really great
to work with them, it makes a huge difference now
and at each point in the journey
as we go through different milestones
will make a huge difference
in a studio in September 2025
where is the project
now? Have you got a car?
Are you building a car?
When will it go on sale?
When will we get the full specification?
Can you just talk us through
the here and now of things?
Yeah, so start
at the book end
so we'll start manufacturing end of next year
so end of next year we'll start a production
for our first vehicles for the speedster
between now and then what are we doing
so we will be showing something very exciting
towards the end of October
in person so you're both
obviously very welcome to attend
That's going to be
a very key milestone
for us
and then from there
and start a delivery, all the things you need to do
to make sure the car hits
on all those promises we've set
and most of that's just
longevity, durability
testing and ensuring that you're building a
quality
you said it on your last podcast
and
actually we've had this advice from a lot of people
Dan at Lotus was there
with Numerial's first launch, Jack Ricks
Top Gear gave us advice
as well saying
please please please we want this car as soon as possible
but don't give it to us until it's ready
and that is going to be
that's so important, the car needs to be ready
because even if we deliver it
and then the last bit is done
in the next six months
cat's out of the bag
as a new brand of a new product
we'll be very much judged on
the pudding
Having spoken to you
I mean I looked at these numbers
and I just thought how on earth are they going to do that
the weight figures, the range figures
the acceleration times, the price
having heard it from you
I believe it can be done
but is it daunting
the idea of building not just a couple of these things
but hundreds and then thousands
Elon Musk
spoke about production hell at a different scale
but building
serious production cars
is fantastically difficult
you'll know far better
than I how difficult it is
is that a challenge
all on its own
and is it a challenge that you guys are ready to rise to
it is a challenge
but it's been done countless times
and it's been done countless times
by people that we have
already from an advisory board perspective
as you go through
different phases of a company
you have to
so Tesla as a company
broke and remade itself multiple times
to get to where
the company that you need to deliver a Roadster
is not the company you need to deliver a model
two million cars a year of Model Y
so
the current form and how long bow is set
needs to be built in order to deliver
the 150 speedsters
is very different to the company we need
to be doing 10,000 cars a year
but you don't need 10,000 cars a year next year
correct and if we built that
and this is in many cases where companies do it wrong
is they build
that 10,000 car company at the beginning
and the way a 10,000 car company
works is it's a large empire
that procrastinates and I've worked at Tesla
I've worked at Lucid, I've worked at places where
that's not what you need
you need the company that builds
150 great, great
speedsters
and then
probably before you start delivering them
you need to start breaking all of that
and rebuilding it into a company that builds
2,000
great, great Roadsters
and then you break it and then you have to build
the company that builds 10,000 cars
so it'll be 150 speedsters
and you'll do all of them first
and then do the Roadsters
but that will be
old company on its trajectory and the manufacturing
perspective as we build the new
I mean I guess the reason
I don't put words in your mouth but the down answer question is
we are all very aware of
car companies that have produced a car
I mean most recently
I guess TVR in
2017
8 years ago, so far one car
and I think
certainly having spoken to you and learned much more about it
it's really reassuring
to know that
you're not going to go down that path
and you understand exactly how to get from
not from where you are now
10,000 cars but from 0 to
150 and then to 2,000
and that you have the resources
and particularly the
advice
to make that happen
Manufactured in the UK
how will they be sold
so
we've
sat different types of companies
so fully direct to consumer which would be
Tesla, Lucid
direct to consumer, different flavour
now moving to shift models
we've dealer side
dealer hybrid side, agent side
I think you need to look at the
fundamentally
I'm not avoiding the question but giving you the lens
through which we view this problem
as a manufacturer
we have to own the customer journey
and experience and interactions
not, oh great you've designed it
a local dealer will be in contact
with you in 3 minutes and going through their system
and their process where it falls apart
you need to know who they are
and they need to know who you are
and we need to be clear on how you work with them
this is our customer
this is how you interact with them
these are the bounds, thank you very much
because we want them to be interacting
the right way so that
continuity of experience because
first car sells your fourth car from the same
your lifetime value of customer is important
and often that's your after sales
journey as well so
we will always own the customer
we will always be directly accountable
for the customer from
first interaction all the way through to after sales
that's what they want too
there will be different people
outside of Longbow that may have
a part to play in that production
at different points in the journey
but it's always our production
directing, producing, writing that script
and they have their actors
in that play but it's
our play
excellent, very nice way of putting it
is there anything else you want to know Andrew?
when can we drive one really
but I guess we're looking a year or more from now
or before then
if you're willing to drive
the one that isn't fully ready
absolutely, where do you want me?
so no that's it
we will get cars on the road
sooner than you think
and then we'll have more and more of them
on the road sooner than you think
and then we'll start production
when we're planning
but we won't start production until it's
the car needs to be
but you're taking orders now?
we're taking reservations now
can you tell us how many you've got?
no, I can't tell you that
I can tell you though that
we are nearly sold out
of our first year
and we're limiting roster to a thousand
so we will not have
or 995 which is the weight attribute
so we will never have more
than a thousand reservations because we don't want to have
again, our experience at Lucid
and in many ways listening to Michael van der Sander
your first thousand customers
are so critical to the success of the business
companies want to brag and say
I've got 50,000 reservations and they pay £2.50 each
doesn't count
no, we want a thousand customers
and we want 95%
of them to buy the car
and that means if we're going to put X amount of energy
or budget whatever it is into reservation holders
we don't want to dilute it
across 30,000, we want it to be concentrated
in a very small number
so that's our focus, we will have our guild members
we'll focus on them
and then we'll move straight to order
once those reservations are delivered
Daniel, it's fascinating to hear
I can't wait to see how it all unfolds
it's the approach, it's the
a very refreshing
thing to hear that you are just looking at it
in a different but sensible way
you don't appear to be
tearing up rule books or
harnessing brand new whizzy technologies
it's just a very sensible pragmatic approach
and believing that something
that hasn't been done before
can be done
I've really enjoyed hearing about
the background, the plans, the strategy
the approach
I guess the next thing is that there will be
more news to follow I'm sure
but the next thing at some point, let's have a go in one
I'd love to, I'm really excited about
the product itself
thanks for coming in, all the best of luck
for it and let's stay in touch
to everyone
listening or watching, thank you
if you're watching on YouTube make sure you
subscribe to our YouTube channel
if you're just listening to this as an audio
podcast, make sure you follow the show
on whichever app you're using
where can people go to find out a little bit more about
LongboatMotors.com
LongboatMotors.com
it's all on there, brilliant, Daniel thank you so much
for your time, really appreciate you coming in today
thank you
HR and Finance together
on one powerful AI platform
right at your fingertips
Workday Go gets you live fast
and fits the needs of your business
find out what Workday Go
can do for you
Go with Workday Go
About this episode
Daniel Davy, co-founder of Longbow Motors, shares insights into their innovative British EV sports cars that challenge the norms of electric vehicle design. With a focus on lightweight construction and engaging driving experiences, Longbow aims to redefine sports cars by integrating modern technology without compromising on performance or affordability. Davy discusses the company's origins, their unique approach to engineering, and the impressive credentials of their advisory board, which includes industry veterans from Tesla and McLaren. This episode delves into the future of electric sports cars and the vision behind Longbow's ambitious plans.
Original notes
Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel are joined in the studio by Daniel Davey, co-founder of British electric sports car startup Longbow Motors. Can the company really deliver on its promise to build and sell two lightweight, affordable sports cars weighing less than 1000kg? And why will Longbow be any different when countless low-volume sports car makers have come and gone over the years?
Use coupon code pod20 at checkout to get 20% off an annual subscription to The Intercooler's online car magazine for the first year! Listen to this podcast ad-free, and enjoy a subscriber-only midweek podcast too. With a 30-day free trial, you can try it risk-free – https://www.the-intercooler.com/subscribe/
Find out more about JBR Capital here – https://www.jbrcapital.com
Use coupon code Ti10 to get 10% off your Supernatural Car Care order – https://supernaturalcarcare.com/
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
The Intercooler
Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel
0:00
58:04