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Paul Fox on the Harsh Reality of Becoming CEO at 23 | EP48
Paul Fox on the Harsh Reality of Becoming CEO at 23 | EP48
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About this episode
Paul Fox shares his journey of taking over the family business at just 23, reflecting on the challenges and lessons learned over 18 years. He discusses the emotional impact of losing his father and the pressures of leadership, emphasizing the importance of resilience and adaptability. The conversation touches on the growth of Fox Group, the significance of company culture, and the value of good people in business. Paul also highlights the importance of self-sufficiency and the strategic approach to acquisitions, all while maintaining a focus on numbers and governance.
Topics:
leadership challenges
family business
company culture
acquisitions
self-sufficiency
resilience
emotional impact
growth strategies
governance
people management
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BMW 5 Series
In this episode of the Talkin’ Shop Podcast we sit down with Paul Fox of Fox Group— the man who took over his family business at just 23 and turned it into one of the UK’s fastest-growing construction and materials groups. Paul opens up about the pressure of stepping into leadership so young, the grief that shaped him, and the “sink or swim” moments that defined Fox Group’s rise. He talks candidly about the dark days no one saw, what it was really like to run a business while learning on the job, and how self-sufficiency, smart acquisitions, and the right people transformed a small local operation into a 350-truck, 1,000-machine powerhouse. Paul lifts the lid on the acquisitions they got right (and wrong), the culture he’s fought to build, and why numbers and people are the real secret to scaling.We also dive into his no-nonsense leadership style, the loneliness of being a CEO, the lessons from COVID that changed everything, and the legacy of the man who inspired him. If you want laughs, hard truths, real business talk, and the story behind one of the industry’s most resilient leaders — this episode delivers.
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Paul Fox:
https://www.instagram.com/foxbrothersltd/?hl=en
https://uk.linkedin.com/company/fox-brothers-group
https://www.facebook.com/foxbrothersltd
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YouTube videos mentioned in this podcast:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEUYjCvAA88&t=473s
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My old fella died in
June 2007 and that feels like two minutes ago not 18 and a half years ago
And you know a day goes by I don't sort of think about him. Oh, yeah, it was it was a dark time
That's bones if you like, but you know what you do you roll your sleeves up and you just get on with it
Yeah, you know made some terrible mistakes because I thought I knew I had all the answers and at 23
You don't have all the answers, you know, whatever so 18 years later today. I haven't got all the answers what?
What I think is probably right today. I'll look back in five years and think I could have done that better
Hello and welcome to another episode of talking shop
We are at Fox Group on the road with mr. Paul Fox
Please make sure to like comment subscribe and let us know who you want on top of your next
Sweet well, thank you very much for having us up at Fox Group
Obviously our us as gel test eclipse. We've been aligned with with Fox Group for four years now see very well known
Yeah, across across us as a business and yeah, and thank you very much for having us up
We'll start with a little bit of a warm-up question Paul and
To get us going. What does what does success mean to poor Fox?
success means
Certainly, but your business is growing and you got the best people around you. Yeah, you know
And then it's about the presentation because if you get those bits right the work to a certain extent naturally comes
You know, it's about service being the best we can be yeah good answer
I like it and another another follow-up warm-up question
What's your since your involvement in in Fox Brothers or you could I suppose you would go outside as well
But what's your greatest achievement? What's the one thing you look back at and go? Yeah, I did I did that
Yeah, you know my involvement started when I was you know, nine ten years of age
You know washing wagons in the yard parking them up and what have you when you know, you could do that
25 30 years ago. You know, you can't do that now. Um, so it was very much
You know the job was sort of bred into me. You know, it's a four-generation family business
um, my old fella died in
June 2007 and that feels like two minutes ago not 18 and a half years ago
Um, you know a day goes by I don't sort of think about him. I think that
I think where the business was and where we've taken it to now
Um, that gives me a lot of pride
Um, and you know, I continually think, you know, he'd be looking down
And I think he'd be quite happy with what what we've done as a family
And you know what with we've driven it onto
Yeah, and that's all you can ask for give us some some idea then for for us and the viewers
What do those numbers look like? So where was fox group at in 2007 when you
Yeah, we had
20 tippers just under and a couple of loaders. We ran some mobile cranes
And about 60 70 machines. Yeah self-drive operated. We did bits of civil's works
We did muck shifting. We had one tip and a small recycling yard
Where it sits today, um all our business in you know, the businesses as as a whole, you know with over 350
Trucks on the road. We've got near a thousand machines out there on self-driving operated with multiple sites and
Um, you know people employed. We've got just a shade under 800
Um, so, you know, it really has come on a long way and we've done that through acquisition
We've done it through organic growth
Um, not every acquisition has been a good one, you know, the ones which we weren't sure about turned out really well
The ones which we thought were going to turn out. Well, maybe I haven't done what we've wanted. Um, but it's
You know one sort of in our view can't happen without the other so
You know with with acquired to grow with organically grown
But then we've vertically integrated as well. Yeah, the businesses with acquired
So, you know, that's been a big part of our growth. Yeah starting at nine 10 years old
Then you sort of I suppose that like you said it would never happen nowadays
But you're well versed by the time, you know, you had to or you took over in 2007
But
How how much did that feel being 23 taking over
A you know a family business that had been running for three four times your age almost
How did he feel he felt horrendous, you know, my old fellow was you know, he was my best pal
Yeah, you know, we were in separate. We worked together. Obviously I grew up with him
And he was the driving force, you know, and it was always very much, you know, he was happy
Everyone else was happy type of thing and if what made him happy the business being right people looking after the business loving the business
Um, what did it feel like it daunting, you know, business is a very lonely place
Particularly when you're under pressure, you know and with Advil's pressures, you know staff pressures not enough work too much work cash flow
People not, you know, you not paying you on time and you you're growing it and you're investing and you know, it's a lonely place
Yeah, um, so yeah, it was
It was a dark time
I suppose if you like, but you know, what do you do? You roll your sleeves up and you just get on with it
Yeah, that's made some terrible mistakes because I thought I knew had all the answers and at 23, you don't have all the answers
You know, whatever so 18 years later today. I haven't got all the answers. What
What I think is probably right today. I'll look back in five years and think I could have done that better
You know, but you learn by it, don't you? Do you think there were any
Positives from being so young and taking over like you said, you probably were a bit more naive and a bit maybe braver at, you know
Just going for it
Without any consequence worried about the consequences. Yeah, some people would call that stupid
Is was there some benefits?
Yeah, I think there probably was um
You know, my old man, you know, hey Jeff Barney as everyone called him. Um, you know, he was very risk averse
um, so
Because of that, I probably gave us a good grounding. But then actually
You think right, I'll take that chance. I'll take that chance. But I did always understand the consequence. Um
And you know, I think one thing is, you know, he was very old school, you know
So he was my refer to my old fellow. He was my grandfather. My grandfather bought me up
You know, so he was like it. We skipped a generation. Um, and he was
I think where we've got the business to today with all our
Accreditations our CSR and ESG you wouldn't see the value in that. He wouldn't necessarily see the value in systems and and governance and what have you
So I think the fact that I managed to
Sort of get hold of it an early age enabled me to actually do that and you know
Build the whole CSRP CSG governance, good systems, good people, succession planning, which is really important, you know
That we you know going back to your question a minute ago the real point of success actually is
You know, if I can step out of this business for two or three days
Two or three weeks a month and we come back and everything just be the same as it was when I left or hopefully better
Yeah, that is that's real success because you've got your succession planning right and all the systems around you
My old man everything hummed around in the whole day. Yeah hummed around him and that isn't scalable
You know that isn't scalable
So, you know miss him every day and low businesses are very lonely place and even now I think
Wasn't expecting that. What would he do? Yeah, you know
Despite you know the size change from where it was when I took over to where it is now
I still go back to that. What would he do?
But some stuff we wouldn't have been able to do because he didn't want us in the value in it
Yeah, no, I I can hear you on that. What do you think and that's led me to a question really?
I don't think we we foresee actually having having on here, but
If if your grandfather was still around
Sadly, obviously as you mentioned, he's not but what would you say would be the
On the positive side, you might be able to answer this quite easily
But on what what sort of negatives would you see within the industry not just about with the company, but within the industry nowadays
You've got too much debt. There's too much debt in the industry as a whole. Yeah, you know, we're a really capital hungry business
Yeah, you 350 wagons anyway wheeler is you know
Mid hundreds. Yeah, you know that you do the maths, you know, we are a we are a capital hungry business
That would be one bit. He wouldn't necessarily like but we are where we are. Um, and I think
He'd probably say we spend too much time watching the wagons and making sure all the wheels are painted right and
You know, everything's the same and too much money on PPE and you know, I think I think you would probably say that the old school
Yeah, you know, we tell, you know, why is why are those wagons plant where that's not in the right place?
Why are we doing that job like that? We could do it better. So
But and that's fine. And do you know what if he was there and carefully take it? Yeah. Yeah, you think ultimately he'd be proud
Obviously, I don't I'd like to think so. Yeah. Yeah. So I've listened but he won't be proud of all of it
He'd be proud of some bits. Yeah, not others. Yeah
You talked about the the acquisitions you've had over the years is that was it just a case of right place right time?
Um, or were they bought strategically to aid the business at the time? I'd love to say they were bought strategically
You know, yeah
You know good businesses. Yes, there's got to be a better strategy and you've got to know where you're going
But you've got to have some good luck and determination as well. So
2017 18 we were probably running 65 70 wagons. We were doing earthworks demolition
Concrete plant
One tip recycling yard we did we did plant higher
We'd start with the crane higher in 2009 to other night 2009
um
and
You know, I couldn't see how to get to 100 wagons. I couldn't see how to get to 25 million a revenue. It just seemed
light years away
and then an opportunity came where
um
A business came for sale which was bigger than ours hurt plant here is doing 25 million a year
Same amount of wagons, but 300 machines
and I thought
I can buy that business
If what I think he wants for it. He wants for it. Um
so
I went off
We we we were in a good position cash wise at the time. Um, so we didn't have to really rinse ourselves to get the business
But I went and saw um some what I thought was clever people. Um in in Manchester to raise the funds. Um, which we did
um
and
we
We went to we went to a meeting on the December
of
2019
Um, we proved for funding from three funders proof of our our funds. Listen. This is an offer. This is what we can do
um
And in the january, they accepted the offer we were supposed to complete by
End of March and then Boris came on tv on the 25th 26 put us all in lockdown
Said right, this isn't going to happen. We need to just pause and see what happens in the coming months
Picked it back up again in june
Obviously the world had changed so all the forecasting all the modeling all the budgets we'd done
You know all banking policies had changed lending policies had changed so we had to just reinvent the wheel and do it all again
And we completed on the 20th september 20 so then at that point we had
um
150 wagons something like that and maybe 400 machines between the two fleets
You know, we were doing 17 18 million the hurt business was doing 25
so I thought right we are
What do we do with it now? You know hurt business was it was and is a good business?
Um, I thought right well, we need to just make the best of the assets
But it's not just the actual assets of your wagons and your plant in your infrastructure be yards
We need to make the best of our skill sets as well. So
hurts did hurt plantated contracting
Um, but it did very simple jobs local, which was fine. Nothing wrong with that. You know good model
Yeah, but the fox business, um, we did demolition asbestos removal remediation got our own consultants working for us
writing the remediation strategies and I thought well
Hurts have got a really good plant base and a really good infrastructure
Actually, we can grow the contracting business. So we put our we put the fox skill set of contracting into the her business
So all the contracting we do now majority of it is is funneled is is is carried out by by herds
So that created growth
um
again the
You know the fox business the fox model is yeah, we say yes
We go where the customer wants hurts were a little bit more controlled because it could be and that's fine
I get nothing wrong with that at all
So we just started saying yes to more jobs and pricing more jobs and you know
If they had a customer because herds want to stay in the northwest where the fox business would go anywhere
If we had a customer
A hurt customer who wanted a job doing in the midlands
Yeah, all of a sudden they say yes and we price it
So we grew the hurt business from 25 million revenue to just over 50 in a couple of years the fox business ironically
Ironically, but um, it grew from sub 20 to just under 30 in the following years
um, and you know
How did we do it? We just started making the best of the assets and that includes the people and the skill set
We started to cross selling offering lots of different services to different clients
I'm working outside of the area. So that that that really helped but
Within nine months
um
We started people approaching us for these guys have got the way with all to do an acquisition
They've not gone broke. They've bought it. We've not gone broke lots of doubters out there. You know, he's not his old man
He's going to fast try to take the world over all that you get whatever you do you get slated for
um
But we were still here and you know, we we did we we did okay. So we started getting people approaching us
drawn by our business
Hmm
We're thinking you know going on acquisition trail here. Is that something I want to do?
You know, we've sort of got the two businesses we want now. We've grown in both
Yeah, I think we probably do we want to head up. We want to
You know at some point we want to lead up to an equity then
You know be
You know a private equity deal a trade sale
Whatever
um
So I thought right how do we do that? So we need to we need to be scalable. So let's buy businesses that are
Um, I'm going to put it let's buy businesses that will add value to us and we can add value back
So we bought a small utility business. So there's a lot of work for county council
We work for lcc
They've run grab wagons. They hire plan. They need tipping. They need aggregates
Actually, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So we acquired that business stick to what you know. Yeah, you're very much so stick to what you know
um
Definitely stick to what you know a hundred percent. Uh, we then
A quarry came for sale which we already had the lease on
um
The grit stone quarry and a tip. So we acquired that
So there's another one and another tip come for sale in blackpool
We bought that. So, you know, if you're running tippers, you've got to have your own aggregates
You've got to have your own tips if you don't it's really hard and you you are spending money outside your own pockets
Where we try and internalize as much of our supply chain as we can
So we did that. Um
Plant a business came for sale
Well, that sort of fits because we're cross hiring planting because we're busy. They were national. They had eight depots
So yeah, that worked. We did that and it just sort of rolled on from there. Yeah, um
And you get a bit deal hungry as well. You get like this thing
Oh, everything you touch is going to be great. Trust me. It's not, you know
But you do you get this this sense of you get you get hungry for the deal and you know making it better
So and we went on like say an acquisition trail there and I think over five years we did
With the two we've done this year. I think we're almost 16 17. Wow over a five year period. Yeah, um
What I thought I knew when I bought the hurt business
On how to get a deal offline and do it and then the integration and unlocking all the synergies
So much different to what I know now, you know, I knew I knew 10 percent. Yeah, and I probably know half now
Yeah, it could be less. You know, there's probably still a lot more we'll learn, you know
Um, that was what we did but it was it what we did realize was every business we bought
They're all family businesses. Yeah
We don't want stuff that's broken. Yeah, because
Yeah, we want we want to be able to create value add value with stuff that he's already well around
Yeah, because you know driving to the other side of the country with tears in your eyes because there's a problem
He's not not turnable. You know of a job
What we do is intensity enough on a daily basis when it's running well, you know
When he's fast paced without having lots and lots of issues. So we like family businesses. We like businesses that aren't broken
And that and that was what we did but
Everything revolved back to the same thing, you know, so
The lifeblood of our business is is the wagons now
Although we are a materials business now more than anything, you know with a national plan with concrete
road planings
Mug recycling
Aggregates and what have you, you know, you can't get your products out without the tippers
You can't get your material into recycle without the tippers. So the wagons is the lifeblood of it
Any shadow of a doubt that's what sort of makes it happen
But everything we do does revolve around what's in the ground
So if somebody and you know that that brings a cross-selling opportunities for us
So if somebody rings up and wants to hire a five tonne digger, yeah, what are we doing with the digger?
We're loading a dump. I guess what we do dump is what we're loading the dump with muck or stone
Well, the muck needs to go offside. Well, guess what we've got tippers. We can take the muck offside
We can recycle it and then we can head we can put the aggregates back into the side for the digger then to knock it out
and that is a sort of
That's the center and it's just sort of it's linked out from there as we've gone on over the years
self-sufficiency
absolutely self-sufficient so
For us self-sufficiency self-sufficiency is really really crucial because
You are in control of your own destiny
Yeah
You can take a job on and know right and you said 12 months to your job and some of the earthworks jobs, you know
One now has been running for three years. We've taken that job on with certainty knowing that these are our prices
No material has gone on or off that site. Yeah, it hasn't come from one of our facilities all in our own trucks
All of our own plant that's really important to us because that does give us certainty and to be fair, you know
We are doing a couple of jobs at the minute
We're building a new car park for a recovery business millers recovery at longton. So
They're extending their yard. So we've
Done the side strip the topsoil has gone off to one of our recycling yards
The muck has gone off to our tip the aggregate has gone in from our quarry. Yeah
Our utility firm is doing all the curbs and the drainage and what have you?
Yeah, and then we're going to tar market
Well, guess what the tar market's getting laid with our own surfacing gangs. Yeah and coming out of our own asphalt plant
Our planings from our planing businesses have gone into the asphalt plant. So it's all that self-sufficiency. So out of
Probably seven or eight services what needs to be done to build that job
Six of them are ours our own the only thing we have to buy on that job
Outsourced is the curbs and the drainage materials everything else our own concrete even our own skips
Yeah, so that vertical integration piece is really important to us. Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned certainty
And that self-sufficiency has given you that certainty and the confidence obviously to
To bring more within the group
But you almost and as did many of us in 2020 whenever Boris Johnson sat down on the television
And we were all like what we're going home like what's going on here
How did that feel when that on that certainty was almost?
You know ripped away from you. What did you feel like when that happened and and what did you do about it?
Because it had never happened before had it so, you know, we've never been a national lockdown
You know, so yeah, so you sort of you have a clue what's going to happen and at that point you think well
What can you do to control it? Well, you can't but one thing's to certain is don't make a knee-jerk reaction
Yeah, and you just roll your sleeves up and get through it. Don't you you know, what else can you do?
So we went into lockdown everybody went home and then after two or three days everyone sort of
Under under so all construction can carry on
So what we'd done
was
We had lots of earthworks jobs on at the time
we went to
all our clients and said look we'll
Let us carry on, you know, I think what do we what do we call construction? Was it?
It was a primary service or something wasn't it? Let us carry on we'll go on the f10s as a
You have to register an f10 for to go on a site
Um, it'd be the main contractor will so we'll manage all the health and safety. Let us get on. It's great weather
Which is good weather for us. It's fantastic for us. I was a quiet shifting roles are quiet, you know
And we ended up doing that for about four customers
But then some other people have come back to work. So our wagon's on the road. Oh, are you working bring? Yeah
Bethels in Manchester. Are you working? Yeah. Yeah, I've seen some trucks on the road
We've got our job at Preston. Can you come do it? Yeah, of course we can no problem
So we were by the end of april
Um
By the end of april we were pretty much back at full capacity. Wow. Yeah, because we sort of thought outside the box a little bit
Why could we do that because we were self sufficient? We had our own tip
We had our own recycling yard
So we could do all the aggregates and all the muck we needed without needing anybody else
And that was so by end of april we were back to capacity. I think the hurt business which was obviously should have
Completed but it didn't I think they got back to capacity by end of may beginning of June
Yeah, they might have you so yeah, you know covid you got on with it. Just got on with it. Roll your sleeves up
Do you what else do you do?
Yes, you've mentioned it a couple of times, you know roll your sleeves up and and get on with it
Where's that ethos come from? Like what have you always had that? Where's that?
Well, you know, it'll be what it'll be what what what's the other option? Yeah going to a corner and die
Yeah, you just have to crack on don't you? Yeah, you know, I've come you know as a business
You know as a family of the business
You know me a CEO of the business now. I've come up against a lot of brick walls in the past probably
Well from the day he died I suppose if you like and you three options, haven't you?
Yeah, go around them go over and we'll go through them. Yeah, the last one is the unpalatable one
But you just do what you need to do to keep going. Yeah, put the business first
Make sure business is okay and everything else follows. Yeah, and don't worry about something you can't control
No, don't make a knee-jerk reaction. Yeah. Yeah, I like that
Don't make a knee-jerk reaction. No, we um
We can share some
Common ground there because when k over when lockdown happened. Well, we continue. We don't get me wrong
It was a little bit lonely. I mean the roads were quiet as that was much easier
You know, we had to stay in hotels and pretty much get off food and whatever very similar path. Yeah, you know
Primary business was displaying garages that I have got their trucks on the road. We need to keep we need to keep going
Let's find a way of keep going and that's exactly what we did. Yeah, so just keep just you just got to plow on them
Business as usual. We got our key worker letters and went for it. Yeah
That was a key worker. Yeah
Key worker and
Yeah, thank god for those to be honest with you, but so many companies I'm sure would have
Hit difficult times and or maybe even disappeared as well
I'm sure there were many of them just purely because they didn't do that
They didn't just think well, let's just keep going until somebody says we can't anymore. Um, make that knee jerk reaction and
whoops, um the human brain. Yeah is
It's default setting is find the reason not to do something. Yeah. Yeah, and it is you know and
It just needs to flip it upside down and find the reason to do it. Yeah, you know, yeah
No, you're right. You're right. Let me go into the gym later
Or is it simply it's that but it's bad. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
So did I did I want to get up at five o'clock this morning and look out the window and it's dark? Yeah
Yeah, but the range battering down. I think I'm just going to go into a world of pain today
Yeah, it's monday. We're out of a few drivers not to earn up. We're going to have tips underwater
There's going to be sights underwater. We're going to be ripping tires off. Did I want to come to this world of pain this morning?
Well, no, what else we're going to do. Yeah, you know, but you just got to go and sort it, haven't you? Yeah
Is it add on? Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned you mentioned the you know growing the business but keeping those
those traditional core
Values, what what are those? What are fox groups?
Traditional values that you've tried to keep whilst growing at a, you know, crazy rate
Ridiculous, you nearly said and you're probably right
Sometimes I think it has been a ridiculous rate, but there's you know, there was others out there who were growing faster. So, you know
What are the core values? Put the business first, you know, look after the business a business will look after you
Try and get the best people around you. You can get the absolute best people around you
You can without any shadow of a doubt and that's from every level. So that's from, you know, if I finance director down to
You know
The window cleaners the guys who steam clean the wagons have the best people around you. You can
Try not have people who breathe discontent in the business, you know, because people who don't want to be here
I'm not forcing you to be I want you to come come to work. Enjoy yourself. Go home. We're all here for the same reason
Yeah, and, you know, give the best service you can to your customers. Yeah, you know
Presentation's a big thing for us, you know, because I'm a great believer in
If you turn up all on a job and 10 wagons go they're all the same. They all look the same
Yeah, they're all clean
All your drivers get out with a fox branded PPE on yeah the client automatically thinks
Well, these guys are a good outfit. They've got half an idea what we're doing even on the days where you think what am I doing?
You know, even on the on the bad day
So presentation is really key and you just want to you want everyone on that journey with you
You want everybody on that journey with you? You can't be
Say, right, this is what we're doing. This is we need to do this from now
And it doesn't happen and then you know, I get aggravated and flip the lid and have a go
This has not been done
That isn't the way to run a business because I was just having a bad day or calm down in a day or two
It's about having the culture right because the culture is right and everyone's on the bus with you
Your job is your job is basically done for you to a certain extent. Yeah. Yeah
Mentioned criticism a few times and I have to admit me personally as I've become more
You know passion as I'm 30 now
But become more passionate about my career and what we do as a business. I've been here for a long time working for
Farron and Ben's dad. Um
I
Terrible for taking it personally. I honestly it does it keeps me up at night when it's a natural value. You do. Yeah
How how do you take criticism personally? It's like water off a duck's back. Yeah, could not kill
because
You're not going to please everybody. Yeah, so you're not going to please everybody, you know
So we we did a private equity deal last year. So my boss
and charcoal mark redmond
great guy, um
he
Paul your job isn't to be popular your job is to run the business. Yeah
Take a lot from that. You know, I took a lot away from my comment and you know with if you put something on social media
Whether it's good bad
Indifferent somebody has got something bad to say about you. So you can't control that, can you?
So I bother about something you can't control. Yeah, you know
So we've had lots of we have criticism from drivers that the business owners
Just noise whatever. Yeah, you concentrate on whatever you want to concentrate on will concentrate on running this business
Keeping the fleet right looking after the people and winning the work. Yeah
Where do you have you how have you learned on the job?
Obviously you mentioned private equity. So you're dealing with private equity firms when you're going through these acquisitions
That's a new thing. You're constantly having to learn new things. And you know, I hope you don't mind me saying
But 23 to lose your mentor. Yeah
Um, where do you would you learn by making a mistake and my mistakes? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I've learned a lot
Yeah, yeah, as long as you're learning and don't make it twice, you know, that's what they say, don't they if you're gonna fail fail quickly
It's generally the cheapest way. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you um, how do you how do you meet Daniel?
was it
I'd seen him on
I'd seen him on
YouTube
Um, I'd seen him on YouTube and then there's a crusher sale and they're called fintan harkin
Um, who we used to buy all our crushes off and I got this I'd we've got a railhead here
I knew he had a railhead and I thought there must be something here
That we can do together. I just got his number and I rung him up
And I just went down to see him and we just kind of got on to be fair and he is comical
He's got a very good sense of humor. Yeah, and we just thought I got on so we did a bit of plant I together
He's I had wagons of fools. We sold him some trucks and
You know wheeling and dealing and helped each other out when he's needed something up here and down there
A friendship sort of formed from that and with
He's ever lunatic pile my clod on other than he just sort of went from there. Yeah, watch all those episodes
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Thanks eclipse now back to the show
What so you look you've been very successful. Um, it's clear to see that
Um, the the business is has obviously thrived
What do you think sets fox group apart? Um, obviously the self-sufficiency helps everybody loves a one-stop shop
They do yeah, but what else do you think sets say you guys apart to get to where you are now?
Sometimes
How can I word this
I think it's about a certain group of people in the business to be fair
Yeah, so I've got some really good people around me who are
The loyal to the business the loyal to me the loyal to the name the name
The loyal to the history of it the loyal to you know the the other people they work with and
You know
We're sort of
We're not one big happy family because not every day is a good day
But we're all sort of here for the same reason and I think we like what we do
Yeah, and it goes back to that culture point, you know what goes back to our culture point. We've got we've got people
Working for us with families of people working for yourself father son mothers working for us, you know, we've got
one of the directors at blackpool darren coldly his um
His son is a transport manager for us. His dad was on purchase ledger. No, sorry sales ledger at blackpool fully retired recently
You know with lots lots with lots of families working in the business
Um, I think it's just I think it's a culture. Yeah, you know, we want the guy
You know, our people want to be here most of them, you know, and we're in it together
Yeah, you know, would you say that's the hardest thing to do in business is find the good people
Yeah, bringing the people along. Yeah, so what we try and do every sort of four to six weeks
um
Is we'll have a town hall we'll get all the business heads the business the management teams in every business in together
You know, we'll do a few presentations and you know something to eat and what have you we're doing at night
So look, this is what's happening in the last three months. This is the good. This is the bad
This is what we need to do in the next three six months. This is what next 12 months looks looks like
You know communicating with people is really important because if they don't know what's going on the way you're going
You know, yeah, you'll never get there. Um
I think that probably sets us apart a little bit and the self-sufficiency. Yeah, and there's wanting to be here
Yeah, you know, you speak to so many business owners
Yeah, I'm sick of it. I don't that's it. I don't like it. I'm sick of this. I don't do it anymore and
So that's not it's quite sad really because ultimately you're the you this your baby
Yeah, you put your life into your life. Yeah soul into it and you know risked everything when
You know, that was the only option to do and why would you not want to be in that business?
Tell us when you enjoy it. Yeah and having that negative
Um atmosphere if you like that belief will will surely go down to
Yeah, of course it does as well. Of course it does. Yeah
The more positive you are the the happier the business
Exactly. Yeah, definitely linking on to that a little bit then is there and sorry and just one more thing
I think as well. So
You know despite our size, you know, we are all the way through the management team. We're all
Accessible we're really customer interfacing and we're there to fix a problem
So it's no one says, oh can I get half an hour with you? Oh, yeah, let me check my diary. Yeah, what's up?
That's a problem. Yeah, you know, I think that helps as well. Yeah, so you don't 16 acquisitions
16 16 17 has there been because 16
Successful acquisitions. I presume that's it. That's all they've all they've all
They're all here. Yeah, some have been better than we thought some haven't been as good as we thought
Where do you where do you draw the line on? You know
If it's not working, you know, where because you clearly have that let's roll your sleeves up and let's go for it
But where does where do you draw the line on? This is just isn't going to work
Or where have you had to
So where we where we generally draw the line is numbers drive everything. Okay, if
numbers drive everything so
You know forecast model
Look at the business in isolation
What does it do to the overall group?
Okay, that works. Let's be really hard on sensitivities. What happens if this what happens if x y and z what if
Turnover goes to this margin drops to this. What if you lose these clients? So we we look at that
That is a third. That is the absolute first point. Yeah
If that then works and we're comfortable with that and we're happy that it will unlock enough value both ways
You know, then we then start looking at it's the geography. It's it's the people in the business
Can we get on with them?
Well, they get on with us, you know, some people we can get on with but they don't like us and vice versa
Because again goes back to the people point of a culture
You know, if you've got some if you're bringing someone into a business who doesn't want to be here
But that's that's not a great. That's not a recipe for success. Isn't it? No. No, it's not
the we've when we've been coated doing this over it's the podcast that we've done about our industry and you know
like you said about
The human brain will look for not to do things or will maybe look at the the negatives of why I shouldn't do it
But talk about the industry
We're talking about negatively. What where would you see the positives to the industry on any opportunities?
over the next, you know, few years
Um, I think it's a great industry to be in. Yeah, I think what we're poor at doing as an industry is actually saying how well, you know
What a good career you've got the opportunity to have
You know, you can have a good career in businesses like that was, you know in this industry
But I think as a sector we're pretty poor at sort of sending that message and we could be better
You know, everyone we talk about, you know age age profile of you of you know, your staff and what have you now?
He's getting older every year. What does that tell you there's not enough young people coming into it? Yeah
Why is that because we don't sell ourselves well, you know on what a good sector it can be so
You know, we've got lots of you know
Don't get wrong. We've got some horror stories as well, but we've got some good success stories of people who've come here
you know, so
Uh, chappie black bull darren coldly
He came to drive a low loader for half a shift in 2013. He's a director of the fox business now
He's so works in it his his dad until he retired worked in it. Um
Mark gale
He's a director here in the hurt business. He came here as a loaded driver. You know, he's a director now. He's
He loves the business. He's he's involved all sorts of bits of it. Um
Ian Colton came as a as an apprentice, you know, a bit long before we bought hers workshop director
Now he's in charge of all the maintenance of the asset replacement, you know
Good stories, you know, we are we are um
We do rattle scheme. So we have prison. We have prisoners work for us through the day
Um, they come out. So we've got wagon drivers. We've got plant operators. We've got some civil lads and what have you and
They they come to us and they go back to Kirkham prison at night. I think we probably got about 18 on a minute 17
maybe um, and there was one chap who came
and
We interviewed him and he just had something about him. I don't know what it was
He just had something about him. Sure. And Edward's great lad
yeah, and
he
He was in prison up here. He was from the Midlands
And we didn't really have anything for him. I said look you can go to the workshops and you know
Paint the pitch paint the walls quite fussy on stuff being right
And you know do a bit of van driving and go for okay
So then next news he's helping the tire fit is changing tires and then he's going out doing tire breakdowns and stuff
But yeah, every credit to your show and you're a great lad
So then he progressed to doing a bit of fitting. Okay, and then he said
He comes to see me said oh, I get released in about a month, but I don't want to leave
So what I've got to I want to go back to the Midlands or the depth of the Midlands
We run
12 tippers down there in Willan Hall
And so well go down there and do what you've done up here. Oh, is that I hope when you're gonna say that
He says I really love love working for the the business or that. Have you okay fine?
Um, yeah go and do that no problem
So you went and do that your cp say hold it down there now. It's only transport managers
Yeah, that's a really good story. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Good for him. Good for you
Yeah, absolutely. And I just I don't think we
Tell everyone what a good business it is. You can be in it. Yeah. No, I like that. It is you damn right part of the industry
um
We do forget about the good things and do tend to focus on the negative things
There's a lot of British culture as well
Yeah, whole degree. Yeah, we all start with oh crap the weather is or whatever
But yeah, you're right
There's a lot of things to be to be excited about and it's do you know what it's a resilient industry as well
Because it has faced and still does face a lot of challenges. Yeah, but
It still keeps on going and it's of course it does and it sort of can't not keep on going can it you know
That's budget, you know, I'm gonna spend more money on infrastructure. They still want to get to
Um, 300,000 homes a year. Yeah, you know that sort of you've got to have construction
You've got to have the construction sector. You've got to have businesses like ours. Yeah, you know a utility businesses and
You think more can be done in or sort of just out of education really to to sort of to educate people on
not just the industry but um
in a world where I think
People are quick to do things that don't get their hands dirty
And they want the one money for not money for nothing, but the closest thing to it
Tiktok driver on facebook. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think we can be doing more to go? Yeah, actually that is a great business. Yeah, you know
I think we probably can yeah, but it's a sector as a whole but it's just difficult how you do it, isn't it? Because
you know
If you are
Keeps coming up on my lot's tiktok profile or his day traders
Yeah, and under town. Yeah, I know and it's all a i-lead and what have you
Are you really no, I don't think he has
Yeah, but that that is brainwashing. Yeah. Yeah, that is brainwashing younger generations. Yeah
What did you do today? Well, you see he's been getting up at half past four quarter five five o'clock
Going out the door coming back in at eight o'clock at night and then going to sit in at my desk the two three hours
Yeah, yeah, or where have you been today? I've been on this job here. I've been there. I've had this problem
That doesn't sell a great store
Yeah, yeah, you know the instagram lies
Yeah, exactly. Yeah
Is there any um, you mentioned about putting the businesses together
And um and having synergy between the teams
uh, is there any
technologies or trends that you've
Adopted that necessarily. Do you know what if your grandfather was here? You'd be able to pitch to to the oldest. Yeah. Yeah
To the oldest. I mean go back to my comment before you know, everything is driven by numbers
Everything is numbers. Yeah, you've got to get your numbers quickly. Yeah, that is what enables us to drive synergies. Okay, so
We acquired two road planning businesses this last
Did one in july the other one I think was
It's like that. It was august. We happened concurrent months
Yeah, and the clear synergy of air for us is they spend a lot of money hiring wagons in on nights
Yeah, so not anymore. It's only internalized. Yeah, so we track that on a daily basis
So we have daily numbers for everything we do
So how much asphalt is dispatched?
And what spec it is or what margin is attached to it? How much concrete goes out?
How many concrete blocks we sell what tonnages of material goes into every tip what?
Um, tonnages of aggregates split into the different aggregates comes in and out of every side. Yeah
Synergy point. Yeah
We track how much those planning businesses spend and all the businesses spend with each other
That is on a daily weekly basis because again, if you've got the numbers in front of you
You can make the adjustment and you can see the reaction. You know, you've got to you know, you can't measure what you don't monitor
Yeah
Yeah
What would be the key thing you've learned from
Maybe one of those acquisitions i one thing that that company did that you never did or they did better
Oh, do there's an element about in every bit in every acquisition, you know, we're not saying we are the best at what we do
We're far from the best. Yeah
But we're not the worst either. So in every business
Yeah, there's things in in every business we've acquired
They do better than we do. Yeah, there's things in our business
And the others which are part of the part of which will will deliver better than those and the key is actually
Saying it's a pros and the cons and getting rid of the con the cons, you know and taking the best bits of every business
You know and that's from how they buy parts how they monitor how they report
How they plan the wagons how they you know, just everything we do you have to go into that granular detail
Yeah, and that isn't you start that's line by line. You need p&l direct costs. You're overhead, right?
How are we doing that? How are we doing that? How are we doing that? How do we do it here x y and z right?
Well, we can we can put that into there. Yes, that works great happy days
Yeah, would you say that's something personally you're quite good at is extracting those
Those good bits. He's unlocking the hidden value, isn't it? Yeah, it's unlocking the hidden value
I wouldn't say I'm particularly good at it. I know where to go and look for it
And the team round me gives gives me the numbers and the team round me says look we can do this and that round
Okay, show me the numbers. That's good. I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah your numbers guy
I like the numbers. Yeah
Well, it's a good thing
That is a really valuable
Sort of the thing really is to someone pitches you an idea and you can see yeah
That's going to work because a lot of I think a lot of
Um, that's some business owners out there would sort of know this is how we do things that this
It works because of that reason. I think you're of that mindset where yeah, that could work actually so that's yeah
You've got a valid point. So let's let's do it. I'm not and that's that's every idea you have come from your own thought process
90% of the ideas come from a team around you. Yeah, you know
And that team have you had that for quite a long time then the same same people same ethos. Yeah
Yeah, yeah, definitely because they want it to do better. They want us to be the best we can be
You know, and you know, so our cfo, you know, and I say this to him
His job is to hold me back. I hope to drag him forward
You know, and it's and it's a really good balancing act. You know, I want to do this
Why you know, I want him to challenge me, you know, and then when he says the reasons why he can't do it
Then I'll challenge him back in but it's not just about the cfo is everyone in every part of the business because yeah, you know
Most managers, you know, they are bringing working and they're also spending money, you know
So they're all part of that efficiency drive, aren't they? So it's it's just it's finding that balance
Yeah, sure
Which some will say I've got well than others will say no, he's horrendous
No, no, I think it's it's a skill. Um, actually to um to delegate
Yeah, I think it is a is a skill. Um to find the good people to do the right things and you're clearly good at identifying
Uh, the good people and good things. Yeah, I haven't always been it's something I've had to
Learn over the last, you know, three four years to delegate
Yeah more and
The skill is picking the person to delegate to yeah
Yeah, but again, you know, go back to the culture point if they believe in the journey
Yeah, where you want to get to over on the bus with you you are over halfway there. Yeah
Yeah, they're gonna buy into your to your dream. Yeah buy into where we want to get it to yeah
Yeah, what's the toughest decision you have had to make since
Since becoming CEO
Yeah, toughest decision on the spot. Yeah
Um
What is a toughest decision I think
Yeah, some people would say or it was deciding to do the private equity deal because you know, we're not but as the family
We're not the majority owners anymore. That wasn't a tough decision
Because it was the right thing for the business was to go to the next level without any so
You know, that's that that wasn't the tough decision. It's the tough decision is when you've got it's always around people
Yeah, it's always around people you think
They're not right for that role they're in, you know, and you've got to make that decision
You know and how they're gonna take it and if you've been with you a while
And you know one thing I will say is nine times out of ten, you know, pretty early on if they're right for the job
Yeah, the worst thing you can do because it isn't there on them. It's just let it
Yeah, let it drag on and drag on and drag on and then the the hearing thing off
And I've got to have that conversation when you should have done it sooner. Yeah, they're the toughest decisions always around people
Yeah, how was the industry changed since you started obviously like I said, I'm sure if your grandfather's eb
Shocked or have a few think choice words to say
How has it changed? Yeah
More a lot more governance, which is not a bad thing. Yeah, you know and a lot more compliance. Um
A lot more scalable businesses, I think
um
and
The to
To do the work and do it well
But I think the amount of assets and infrastructure you've got to have round you, you know
I think that's grown as well because I think in, you know years gone by it could be a bit
Not rough and ready, but
Didn't really matter as long as you got the job done mentality. Yeah complacent. Yeah, you could be a bit more complacent
Where now
Compliant, you know the compliance side is is everything. Yeah, it's all we're driven by enterprise value
Yeah, so if your compliance isn't right it your multiples down
Yeah, how's the easiest way to add value to your business to get your multiple up? Yeah, you know demonstrate
We're not a seven times business. We're an eight times business. How do you do that? Yeah, ESG CSR
Governance compliance, which is all basically the same in the same wrapper and succession plan. Yeah. Yeah
Who's who was your inspiration?
um when building the business
from when you took over
Good question. Yeah
Uh male fella, you know making him happy, you know, that was always one
But you learn off you learn off loads of people, don't you you look at how they do stuff? I mean you look at
you know
The hurt business, you know Clive hurt so Clive started work from your own father when he was 16, believe it or not
And my old man always said, you know, if you're gonna aspire to anyone in plant I am aspire to
Clive hurt, okay
So, you know learned a lot from him and there's some other really interesting businesses out there, isn't there?
You know about presentation, you know, you look at the Stalbart's glory. Yeah, you know, um, Andrew Tinker and William Stalbart
You know, I know both of them and
You know looked at how they did stuff. They really thought outside the box. They really did
You know, so you watch the really successful ones, don't you? You know, and you take snippets, don't you?
You try and recreate some of some of those bits. Yeah, so but there's a handful
If you could go back to the early days
Um of of management
What would you change and why would you change it?
What would I change?
I'd realize I didn't know everything which is like I thought I did then but at 23 you can't be done with anything
Can you just young and angry don't you?
I've probably put more focus on the numbers and I put more focus on the people
Yeah, yeah, I would have put and I'd have probably started the acquisition journey sooner. Okay. Okay. Yeah
Yeah, I just thought because if I'd got the people right and done and like reported the numbers better
Then I'd have been able to get the acquisition story going sooner. Although that came through chance, you know, so
Yeah, what would be the best bit of advice you received early on in your career that you would pass that on to the
Next one. It could even be something you've just learned over the years as well. Um
Numbers and people yeah numbers and people get the numbers right get the people right
Yeah, and it just and you'll be right. Yeah numbers and people. Yeah. Yeah. It's no good knowing, you know that
November was a bad month and finding out in january. I want to know by the 7th of december what we've done in november
Yeah, I wanted to know, you know on the 7th of november
We had all our october figures across all the businesses you have seventh or eighth
You know, you've got to know it early and then you know, the other point I'll make there is yeah, it's great getting your p&l
That quick it's got to be accurate. That's about people but it's about your reporting systems behind that and you know
once those wagons have gone out
and
burnt the diesel scrub the tires off and you've paid the hours that money's not coming back
So it's it's your daily kpi is where you can really make the difference as well. Yeah
Yeah, which goes back to numbers. Yeah numbers numbers all come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what's next?
Are you going for 20 acquisitions 30 acquisitions?
Yeah, we've got a couple of the cards at the minute. Yeah, we've got a couple of the cards at the minute
And then I think that'll be it then we just then it's about making the most of
The infrastructure we've got the cross-selling piece, you know the synergy so for us to acquire a business
It's got it. It's sort of three or four things now. It's got to move the needle for us. Yeah
Yeah, we've got to be able to create the value, you know, we've got to be able to create the value
By not just buying it doing that figure
Well, actually we buy it we do that figure and this business over here gets another
Half a million quid a year spend that one gets another 200 grand a year spend all because then that that's the real synergy. Yeah
Yeah, the synergies we don't count
It's just part and parcel of the group of businesses is your best parts deals and your best
Pricing and what have you that's just something we do. Yes, we never count that in we don't look at a business and say, right
Well, that business is doing 800,000 EBIT data
Yeah, actually we'll internalize x y and z and actually it will do probably one and a quarter or one and a half
Yeah, we look at the direct service piece. We don't then look at the bid at the side
Which is we'll buy fuel cheaper. We'll buy parts cheaper. They'll do x y and z. That's just part and parcel
We never we never sort of count our numbers on that. It's about the synergy. Yeah, so we will
do the next one two acquisitions
In the coming months and then it's just about focus focus focus on vertical integration
Culture got a new ERP system going in which will be hopefully
Life-changing for us from a reporting purpose because that's building the governance EESJ
You know demonstrate. We're not a seven times business for an eight times business. Yeah, you don't need expansion abroad at all
We've got a little depo in the Isle of Man. Yeah, you can call the Isle of Man abroad and we have done bits and pieces of jobs abroad
Yeah, is that a challenge you'd want to get your teeth into or?
No, probably not. He doesn't fit what he doesn't fit what we want to do. Yeah to be fair. Yeah
Unless you own the Euro tunnel. That's that's self-sufficiency and
I know the airline
No, no, no, no, no fair enough fair enough
Well, I think that's everything we've got anything you wanted to bring up now. No, no
Well, thank you very much. So if you've enjoyed this episode with Paul
Please make sure to like comment subscribe and let us know who you want on talking shop next
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