Phil McGovern on Starting Caffeine & Machine, Angry Local Residents and Overseas Plans

Was there any sort of battles that you've had to have just to turn it into a cafe and a machine?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the first mountain that we climbed was when we went for a license change.

Just a tweak. I literally a tweak. All hell broke loose. I've never been in a council committee

meeting where there was a crowd and they were cheering. And jeering. And we were sat in this

big room with a full raft of counsellors. Yeah, it was horror.

We're here at the Bowl with Phil from Cafe and Machine.

Please make sure to like, comment and subscribe and let us know who you want on Talking Shop Next.

Sweet. And action. Take it away. With a bit of coffee as well. My second coffee of the day and it's

10 a.m. sketchy. Yeah, no, we've gone for decaf. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's the worry?

Watch me shake. 100%. How are you?

I'm very good. Thank you very much for asking. It's interesting times, isn't it at the moment?

Yeah, yeah. And we're here at your... How new is this site? How new?

How are you? We opened this one in October of a few years back. So we're 18 months old now.

18 months old. Yeah, nice. Yeah, we went through a sketchy adventure of trying to open two in

six months. So yeah, this one came first and then six months later the hut popped up on

St Patrick's Day. Yeah, which conveniently I passed through the day. I'd never accidentally,

shall we say, passed any of them. And then as we'd planned this, I then passed one. I was like,

oh, that's weird. Were you good-wording or something along those lines?

No, I was just stuck because of traffic. So the sat-nav led me like the most bizarre way.

Because I don't think you can accidentally find the hut. It's like quite...

No, if you know it, yeah. So if you're coming from north-south to do the Goodwood

trip, of which thousands of people do every year, it's that kind of, I don't want to do the M27,

you just cut across the top. And if you know it, you know it. And then you just literally,

you drive straight passes and you stop at the traffic lights and you're staring at the building.

It's kind of cool. That's how I found it. Yeah, well, we did the same last year,

Goodwood. We're on the way there again, avoiding that bit of motorway.

Welcome to my world. It's a challenging world of making people aware of where it says.

Because that was one of my questions, to be honest with. How did you end up with

the locations that you have got now? Was it... Oh, they've all got kind of a cool story,

in a weird way. The first one, the hill, was a byproduct of stress.

Like, I'd come back to the UK. I had the dream and the aspiration. My funding model had fallen

down because we'd been looking at buying properties. And yeah, I just found it randomly

on the internet. Old-school search, pubs for sale. Because through a conversation I'd been

having with my then-brother-in-law was that pubs was a dying trade. So I just went Google

searching for pubs in the local area. I knew that road. I know that local area really well.

I'd never seen that pub ever. It was really weird. And it looked like a haunted motel on

the side of the road. It was kind of sketchy. And then, yeah, the second we painted it

white transformed. This one is an old school friend of mine, a guy called Rob Higton,

who at the time was quite senior in Red Bull Formula One. And he used to cruise past it.

And he just sent me a link on WhatsApp saying, it's a sale. Like, what do you reckon? Have a look.

And that's how this one was found. And then, yeah, the hut was, as you and I were just

talking about, just a random drive down that road. And we stopped. And I was aware of

Lumies, the motorbike cafe. We had a Magnus, myself and Laura, and we sat on the hill and

just watched the world go by for an hour. Yeah. And immediately thought, this is a really

interesting proposition. And then it came up for sale. So, yeah, that was more the other way round.

I see. Because that was the way we looked at it was, it was this scenario where you said,

right, I want to find some way here. Or was it just a case of?

No, there was a proactive decisions around all of it. Where the hill, the hills positioning

was like, where else are you going to go in the UK? That's that surrounded by automotive

culture. And it's, you know, it's famous racetracks. It's Triumph, Jaguar Land Rover, Aston Martin,

Multimatic, Pro Drive. There's a raft of Formula One teams that all sit within like a 30 by 40

mile range of the hill. This place has got Milbert Proving Ground. Like one of the most

reputable industry proving grounds is in that field over there. Well, yeah,

where they used to film Fifth Gear, they used to film, or they did film Casino Royale.

It's amazing. If you Google map it, zoom out, you'll understand why we call this place a bowl.

Because there's a one mile high speed, six lane heavily banked bowl just over there.

Copart, BSA, and then Milton Keynes is the home of automotive OEMs pretty much.

And the hut was just Hampshire. Like it's kind of cool down there. I like it down there.

I studied down there, it's, yeah.

I think you've pretty much answered the question, but how do you get the names for

the places? Obviously, it's obvious now why you've called this one.

Yeah, yeah, I wanted all sorts of silly names. But yeah, they just fall into place. So the

Hounds Hill pub, which is where the hill is, used to be called Mungrell's Mount.

There was all sorts of historical names associated to it. And I got lost in

entomology and was like, we'll just go up the hill. This place was called The Checkers,

but the bowl was, and it actually started as a serial bowl full of those teeny weeny

micro machine because we were trying to figure out ways to market the launch and the awareness of it.

And yeah, it started with a bowl and then we were like, the chip was a high speed bowl.

Yeah. And the hut was an old sheep. It was a hut. It was a sheep drive spot.

Yeah. Obviously, with your events as well, that was one of the questions where,

how do you come up with these names of speciality nights and weekends? I think that's what draws

people to it. They get, oh, yeah, I've got a BMW. I'll go this weekend because it's got that

event on and it sort of drags people. It's a massive... It sounds really simple to come up

with names, but it starts with trying to understand what the market was that I was

trying to attract. So if it's the concept of a music venue and it's playing all sorts of genres

of music, all sorts of bands are being invited, it's really difficult to not make other people

feel alienated. So it kind of starts there. If we're all machines always and you put a

Peugeot night on, you've just precluded a lot of people. So the first kind of cultured night

that we created was called Daikoku. And that was a celebration of JDM. I was aware of that

whole Japanese domestic market crowd community. They're very welcoming, very open. They don't

ostracize each other. They all love their product. And Daikoku is a very famous spot in Japan

under an underpass where they meet up randomly and then they just disperse.

And I'm like, that's where we're going to lean into. So yeah, it became Daikoku nights.

Somehow we persuaded loads of people to put neons on their cars. And it became,

yeah, noodles and neons in the first wave. And that was a really voracious, busy

evening that kind of set the template of how we go. And the next one was Euro,

Euro market was Strass and culture, because it was predominantly driven by Volkswagen,

Audi, Porsche, BMW. And then, yeah, we tried forward thinking FWD, which was Frontwheel Drive,

became a challenge. That became hatches. That was a challenge. Because you've got

a lot of hatchbacks, they bridge, you know, they're either French or they're German,

so they kind of split on nights. ACAS was Aircraft Appreciation Society, because I just,

I love air-cooled stuff, as you saw. But there's more, there's Fiat 500s, and there's Harleys,

and there's Triumphs, and there's Ducatis, and Citroen 2CVs, like it's broad. But not many

people know that. So it ends up being an education, like how do you draw people to

understand it, to grasp what I'm trying to do, that I'm not just a stance tonight,

or a Japanese night, or a truck night. I'm trying to be all of it, always. Which is a real,

it's a sticky wicket. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, back at the very start, I mean, did you have

any idea, so from where I look, it's happened to me, it's been a huge success. Did you look

very confused? I'm feeling kind today. Did you have an idea at the time, when this was a

bit of a blueprint, if you like, that it would be this successful?

No, no. This is 10 years this year. Wow.

Yeah, it's had a really interesting gestation, and it kind of came through, I was corporate,

I was working in big corporate world, I felt a bit lost, but it was fun.

You know, the big corporates generally play their HR model to make everybody rounded.

And I couldn't be that guy, I tried as best I could. But I picked up a camera,

I found my artistic streak, and then I started writing around the photography,

and then that became a website. And then that website built a community on its own.

And back then, it was called Crank and Piston. You can see my theme coming really

quick. And that was because I had a Charlie, who was my youngest child, and I'm Phil,

so there was a C and a P, and then a few years later, a Max turned up, hence the C and the M.

And the idea of building a community back then was happening. Speed Hunters was doing

it really successfully, but again, massive, huge business was behind that. That was an

electronic arts, very clever marketing acquisition platform. But I just wanted to know why no one

was doing it real. And then economics comes into play, and it's like, okay, that's why

you've got to sell advertising, and then you've lost your soul. And then it becomes a difficult

thing. So Crank and Piston dissolved. But in my head, I wanted to do a Crank and Piston cafe

that was always there. It was really chintzy. It had Hot Wheels on the ceiling in one of

my, it was really chintzy. But early, early doors. And yeah, I had like a two year gap

where I got really busy with work. My agency in the Middle East was was doing really well,

but Caffeine Machine was always in my head. And I'd been floating it left, right and centre

wherever I was, to whoever was willing to listen to me. And yes, someone just wanted to

do it then. So it started as a coffee morning in Alcouse, which is the industrial area in

Dubai. In a really beautiful little cafe called Cafe Rider, which was owned by a friend of mine

called Morditazer Malvi, who sadly passed away about 18 months ago now. But he was a big believer

in exponent and what I was trying to do, albeit his business was a coffee roastery that was

built around the concept of choppers and cafe racers and classic motorbikes.

So he facilitated my desires to host an event. And off it trotted, but not

anywhere was it anything other than a bedroom project. Because I had a job and I had a family

and I had mortgages and it was like, this will never be a thing. There's 13 events in the Middle

East, I think 13, 14. And on the final one, we were like, right, open book, let's build a business

case against this and see whether it could be conceivably something that could function.

And it spat out some okay numbers. And yeah, the rest is history. We

opened with five members of staff and a business plan that was built to cater for it. So that's how

woefully unprepared we were. We'd do 25 cups of coffee a day. We were like, okay, that'll work.

And 30 burgers a week, 30 t-shirts a month, a very easy cheat lease because we built the

entire building ourselves, the hill. We restored it. The same five people that opened it

restored it, which was crazy. And it just went off. And clearly the market wanted it.

And we just had to hold on to it. It felt like raging horses disappearing off down the road

and we were out of control. Because we'd never, I'm not a public and I'm not an FMB specialist.

I'm an agency guy. I'm an ideas guy and a photographer. That's all I really am.

Yeah, so it was just holding on to it as best we possibly could, especially with the work I've

done in the background to trigger the likes of Top Gear. A lot of the early wave of what we now

know as influencers were super helpful. There was a load of people that waved in at the beginning

and that pushed us over the lip. We were due to open at midday on the 27th of October and we had

to close. I got sent a photo actually the other day of the guy that stood in the road with,

sorry, we're shut and we hadn't even opened. And I was like, okay, this is going to be a

problem. But the anxiety was still there that it wouldn't work. And it still is to this day,

like it could all stop tomorrow. Quite convincingly. Were you thinking, oh,

God, I'm going to be back on the phone to Jack soon on Jagger. Can I have a job?

Yeah, you know, I started considering agency conversations. I saw a job for Wonderman and

there was a couple of jobs for the big kind of WPP agencies. I always had aspirations to go

back into that world at some stage. I'm a big fan of Rory Sutherland and had you carve

a niche like that. You've got the bloody good. Would I now? No, probably not. Life's changed

a bit. I'm a lot older now. But yeah, the fear of failure still haunts every single day.

That's because it's an arty project, right? And I bear that in my soul. The team

probably very different, like they see this thing differently to me for sure.

From an outsider, I see it the other way. Everybody wants to come and do something

at the weekend, whether it be meeting with other people in cars, coming for lunch, coming for

there's always an amount of people that want to do this sort of thing at the weekend. I see

it from your end, especially with how delicate it was back in the day. It's natural in business

to feel that way. But definitely from the outside, this coffee machine is a huge

blow along. I never wanted to be the center of it all. I wanted to be the fringe,

which is why in the early days, the rhetoric was the beginning, the middle, and the end of every

journey. COVID and viability of a business changed all of that. That was what I was supposed

to be. I was supposed to be the impasse point, not the center. It was the pit stop.

Yeah. I remember, in fact, the very early days, actually, and just turn up to the hill

one day and it just being absolutely packed, literally, having to turn people away.

I think that was at the point where there wasn't a ticket in system, was it? It was just

first come, first serve. Was that do you think the point where you then had to

implement the tickets? Yeah, for sure. We had to chip our brand in live action.

Destructive is the best way I would describe that scenario that we were catering to at the time.

Yeah, I can't think of an analogy where it would make sense, but you can't over-stack a business.

It's a service provision. We learned that really the hard way. The data points that we've

got now that filter through the business are sensible. They're built to the capacity

and the capabilities of the team so that we can deliver right quality, at pace, all that kind of

stuff. If you just throw as many people in as possible, problems happen fast,

and we have no process to support that. So yeah, it was a headache. Wonderful.

What nice headache to be, but still destructive.

And I suppose, I appreciate you want to go too much into this, but you've got residents,

you've got people in the local area, which of course are not going to be totally on board with

the idea. That was a lot of work. So one of our owners, Dan, one of the founders, co-founders

of the business, spent hours, hours, days understanding stakeholder impact. And that

was a learning from the Middle East because we were, the CNN was born in a country that's a

benign dictatorship. It's a kingdom. And there's no gray. It's very black and white.

So we came with all of that knowledge. We worked very closely with the police in the UAE.

So the first protocol was the local police force. The second, silly things like,

if actually, if I wind it back, the community was 90% against us. It was really bad.

They did not want us there. They didn't understand the concept of what we were doing,

but we showed faith and good faith in our social governance, which was, I love you, man,

and don't be a dick, significant social governance elements to our business.

And yeah, we work with police and crime commissioners. We, all of them, counselors,

planning, licensing, EHO, you know, we got very, very close with the team from the EHO

because they were the first people that were sent into ascertain whether we were viable,

right? A lot of work. And yeah, like never, ever misgive the power of support in that realm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When, sorry, when you, when you set the hill, how busy you had those days,

like Aaron was saying, when they were turning people away, was there any legal implications

when you were setting up, obviously, the other sides of the bowl, where maybe the counts

are like, well, you know, you're going to turn this pub or this restaurant that's been

this sleepy little pub into what could be an absolute chaotic. Was there any sort of battles

that you've had to have just to turn it into a caffeine and machine side? Yeah. So the first,

the first mountain that we climbed was when we went for a license change, just a tweak.

Yeah. I literally a tweak. Yeah. All hell broke loose. I've never been in a council

committee meeting where there was a crowd and they were cheering. Oh, wow. Okay. And jeering.

And we were sat in this big room with a full raft of counselors. Yeah, it was,

it was horror because they had no, they had no grasp of the fact that the highways is not our

problem. Highways is highways. Yeah. Like I'm a, I'm a, I'm effectively a business owner. I'm

not highways, but the minute we showed, again, we're back to intent. So I went and as did a

number of our team, we all became resident speed watchers. And I shared that online

with the caffeine and machine community and got torn apart. But little did they know that

six months later, not one single caffeine and machine customer had been caught.

Everyone that had been caught speeding was a local resident. And that, that became really

interesting information to explain. And we did things like traffic surveys. Yeah.

The road was never quieter than when we were sorry, never noisier and louder and faster

than when we were shut. Oh, right. Okay. Commuting. Yeah. A truck makes the same

sort of noise as an EV car because it's tire raw. It's not engines when you're at 50, 55.

You know, they, they, they tried to kind of pinpoint accidents on us, but the data

actually when you go into it revealed it was in a car park in Waitrose. It just

happened to be on the same road. And as our brand grew in the public domain,

as I've had a crash on the A272, I'm just round the corner from caffeine and machine.

So CNN became registered in all the police logs. Yeah. But they understood why we were

being registered, not because we were the reason. Yeah. That necessity to look into it

so much like you have and be involved in, you know, helping out with local problems with

speeding or on safety and noise pollution, etc. Is that as that come out of just pure

necessity to make the sites work and problems that you've had previously? Or is that just

naturally that's what you sort of wanted to do to help the local community, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're forced for good. We're not evil. Yeah. We're here to help. We're here

to be better. I've got a meeting this afternoon, for instance, with a young driver academy that's

based out of UTAC to get kind of 14 year olds buying the wheel of the car. Learn them early.

Yeah. Yeah. This massive thing. Yeah. Big, big exponents for it. And I don't

like it when the lights shone on the wrong target. Yeah. Because the car, the automotive

communities deemed us being terrible and we're not. We're good people. We're you. Yeah. You know,

you're the head of police. He's right there having a beer on off shift or, you know, there's,

yeah, what else do we do? We did a really good thing called Operation Think,

which was celebrating those that come and get you in the dead of night when it's

peeing it down with rain and they don't even know you but they're dragging you out of a hedge.

And that was police, low land rescue, first responders, fire, ambulance. We did a whole day

for them and shone a light on them. Yeah, loads of that. Yeah. Good for you. It killed it. It killed

the site. Right. It's the negative of this. Okay. The work at the hill never reflected on our

ability to open up in Derbyshire. Right. That was a real problem. Okay.

Yeah, we lost a lot of money. We had many, many council meetings, many,

many revisions of architectural drawings and they still said no.

And we tried to play it like really straight. We had open mornings. We welcome people in. We

told them about our business. We told them about employment. We told them about the value of,

you know, 50, 60 employees in a village is good. Yeah. Like economically, this is good.

Yeah. Yeah. They just, it felt for Derbyshire and especially that area, it felt like we were the

perceived straw that would just break all of it. Okay. Yeah. Because Matlock Bath is a very vibrant

town, like very vibrant. And I think they thought we might just heal it all. Take over. Yeah.

So we got that one cancelled. We very sadly left what would have been called the knock.

And there's the perfect name again. Yeah. Yeah. We sadly left that one behind.

And that was our Northern Adventure curtailed. Yeah. You never know. Might creep up again.

Yeah. Yeah. And we're a different beast now. And again, we're known. We can't hide anymore.

Like we tried to hide with the knocker down and then we went straight and it didn't work out.

Yeah. We're doing it right now. I think. Yeah. So I bet you can relate quite a lot to

Clarkson's farm, all the stuff Jeremy's gone through. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I had a TV show.

Yeah. Yeah. I think he's got a bit more of a bullish attitude towards it. I think he also,

I think he also knew it was coming, right? Yeah. Which is why the TV show works so well. Yeah.

Yeah. He left some really lovely comments on a couple of websites about acknowledging the work

that we've gone through that we did our best and we still do. Yeah. There's not much more

you can do other than play it straight every single time. Sure. Yeah. And then you gain the

respect of the locals. And then hopefully it just becomes part of the community. And then for

it's proofing the pudding when you're trying to expand. Yeah. It works here. Why can't it work?

Yeah. And you'll see forces floating through all day, every day. We're very close to the police

forces because I dig them. They're cool. They're doing a great job. They have a nightmare

of a job. Yeah. I empathize entirely. And everybody just wants to film them now doing

their job and hoping that they get things wrong. And yeah. Whereas they come in here,

they start, they wander around, they chat, they make some suggestions. Yeah. They don't

go near our community. It's really well done. Yeah. Yeah. More of that. Yeah. Good. More.

You built a good community because you do. You perceive boy racer, car meets chaos. And actually

that's not what... They still happen. Yeah. Yeah. I remember Dan and I very, very early on

outside the hill we were talking to. I won't name them but Big Old Crew. And I felt like

a dad. It was terrible. I was in my late 30s then. And I'm talking to all these 20 year olds going

like, we've built this for you. Yeah. Really simple. I love what you do. I'm a big fan of this

community. I was once you. I was once doing silly things. Please don't defecate in your own

front yard. Yeah. Look after it. And that's where we started to really lean into, to

don't be a dick. Yeah. I remember the Instagram stories back in the day. You know,

people just abusing it really. As you said, and quite simple, banned. Don't come back. Yeah.

And that again, that was brought about with tech. I make no bones about it because I find it

really interesting and I really want to understand it more. But we've been data harvesting for a

long time. Every single vehicle that comes through the door is picked up. So it's really

interesting to monitor that data. And the power being that if someone is anti-social to

a high degree, we know who they are straight away. And when they reappear, our internal system

triggers the marshal to say that person's reappear. And it's education first time.

Yeah. Yeah. If it happens again, it's... Do you feel people respect the sites more because

of that now? There is more of an awareness. I shouldn't do that because I want to come

back here. Yeah. There's certain communities that just don't. Yeah. And they're the same.

Like you carve a room up. There's going to be 50-50 always.

Yeah. I mean, politics tells you that right now at the moment, isn't it? The world is divided

half-half. So it's, yeah, half of the room will just go, I don't care. I'm here to send it.

But you can have a scenario on a nice sunny day, busy yard. Someone sends it. The entire

yard groans. Right. So I don't know why he did it. Yeah. Because he just got the opposite

feedback to what he probably thought he was going to get anywhere. Yeah. And that sentiment of,

and I feel bad because I am one. But it's not all men, but it's always a man.

Yeah. Always. It's super rare. I don't think I've ever come across a woman in our

scene doing it. Yeah. No. Yeah. It's always a dude. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the challenge.

Yeah. What's the ultimate goal for caffeine and machine?

I got asked this recently and I don't know whether it sounded arrogant or not. And as

long as I pitched this right, I wanted to create a legacy in the scene as a brand that

we did something good. Yeah. We did something good. We created something that otherwise

had never existed before. And it's a safe place for the community to hang out and enjoy themselves.

The challenge is avoiding it being seen as a money grab because it absolutely isn't.

There's far easier ways to make money. Yeah. This is like a living,

breathing project that was designed to make things better. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you

continue to innovate? You've got this working model. Oh, mate. Yeah.

Yeah. How do you innovate? Yeah. A lot of sleepless nights, basically. Yeah. You've got to stay

with it. You've got to have a touch point to it. And it's really difficult because the scene moves

so fast. Like I'm loving the inner city stuff that's floating around at the moment. I'm loving

the mix of street culture with automotive culture. There's a really strong bind there.

There's still the legacy kind of retired and radical brigade that I think they're

going to be omnipresent for a long, long time. But I really love how it's all merging and mixing.

Like when was the last time we saw a Lotus Esprit on airbags and split rims?

Like that kind of stuff's wild. Yeah. It never happened and all of a sudden it is.

And I think it's all spinning out Japanese culture. So if you're on it, you're on it.

But you've got to be aware of it. Yeah. And we're a platform. So I've got to be

clever enough to curate stuff that is befitting what's happening. Yeah.

Be a pulse check. Yeah. The data is obviously going to help with that. So if you're mad into data,

it's only going to help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can find the product. Yeah.

Yeah. I've got this canny ability to see it. I've got to figure out how I use it,

but I can see derivatives and derivations of derivatives. Yeah. I can go that low.

Like I could find your car if you'd entertained. Yeah. Like I'd find you on color. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'd just look at the NWs and then I'd look at 3s and then I'd look at M's and then I'd

find green ones and I could invite 15 of you down. Yeah. That's how we did Make Green Great again

with Luke Gilbert. So we just targeted all the green cars. Sure. Okay. Yeah. So all of a

sudden we have a green car park. I like that. I like that. Yeah. Because that was, in fact,

yeah, another question answered. Yeah. How do you sometimes gather these sort of groups

together if you like? And there you go. Yeah. You subtly invite them to the same party.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've got something for you. But again, you've got to tread really carefully

because if you do a load of BMW M3s and then someone turns up in a Ford Escort,

they're not going to feel welcome, are they? So you're back to that problem. Of course you are.

Quickly back to that problem. Talking Sharp wouldn't be possible without our title

sponsor Eclipse Diagnostics. Eclipse are the leading supplies of JALTEST, the number one

heavy-duty vehicle, vessel and machinery multi-brand diagnostic tools. If you're working on cars,

trucks, boats or machinery, be assured we have the solution capable of performing all of your OEM

and dealer-level functionality. Whether you're looking to force a regen, trace a wiring fault,

or want to program an ECU, we've got you covered with manufacturer repair manuals

and a dedicated technical support team to keep your fleet moving. Enquire today and quote,

Code Talking Sharp to receive a free cable saver with your diagnostic order,

including product training at your premises. Thanks Eclipse and back to the podcast.

How do you sort of feel, I mean I know it's a competition's competition, but I guess you've

sort of laid the base down for what is a successful idea. How do you feel about sort of more people

doing this thing now? So there's certain, I'm going to go through them all, but there are

certain venues popping up around the country now, trying to not mirror exactly, but doing

the same thing. Yeah, look at some, it's a rising tide.

I'm all good for it. I'm a big fan of, look, every art project within reason is a,

it's an assimilation of what you've seen and what you like, and then you've remixed it.

I'm down for that. If it's a really clear remix, and this is my heart and soul in

this project, and I'm delivering it in my way, and it might just sit in our sector,

that's cool. You'll find me in there. Yeah.

Bike Shed, you'll find me in there. Baffle House, you'll find me in there, that kind of thing.

When it's a clear cut stab across the bow of, when it's a copy. Yeah. Good luck.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like good luck. Go get it. If you can make it work, go get it.

I'm not going to tell you where the accidents are, and where the mistakes are, and all of that

kind of jazz, because you're going to have to figure it out. But if you're collaborating,

we have wicker conversations with the guys at Baffle, chats with George not that long ago

about stuff, because it's really interesting to see how they're growing, and where they're

growing, and what they're doing. There's some really good ones out there,

like really good ones. Yeah. Yeah. And they will always talk.

Yeah, look, it happens in every scene. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. People want to

assimilate. They want to copy the success. Of course, people are going to look at it

and go, that worked out. Yeah, look, there's a problem for me, right? Yeah.

But as long as I stay true to what I am. Yeah. And I don't miss the boat.

But that's an everyday problem. And I never really thought about that,

but it is a brand. Obviously, you've got the clothing that's really successful. We've got

some merch as well from our visits. And you came from Jaguar, obviously, a heritage. You

talked about heritage in the Dry to Success podcast, but you worked at Jag, and I don't know if

you have much of an affinity for the Jaguar brand, but how did you feel when it feels

like it was ages ago now, but was it a year ago? Yeah, when you looked at that, I went, whoa.

I think it's badass. Yeah. Yeah. I got a love affair with Jag. Yeah.

Like first brand that was probably brought into was Jaguar, and then very quickly Porsche,

and then very quickly after that Volkswagen feel it because I couldn't afford a Porsche.

Yeah, Jag Jag's been close to me for a long time. I was very much dipped in green.

I was always saddened by their product lineup, always. Oh, really? Okay. Their concept

cars were sick. Yeah. Like R Coupe, RD6, XK180, all of these cars that were floating around was so cool.

That always bummed me, and I worked in the product department for a bit. Okay.

I got very kindly invited to see concept car about six months ago now. Yeah.

In a private room. Yeah, awe-inspiring, wild. Whether it's anything like the car that goes

floating down the road when it's ready. Yeah. God only knows. Yeah. But I'm still

close to a couple of the guys that are like the chief program engineer for the project,

and he's psyched about it. Yeah. And it's really interesting when you meet engineers that are part

of the development of a product and they are psyched. You know, you've got a good car coming.

So, yeah, I hold hope for that product. Oh, nice. Okay. It's not going to be as affordable as

other Jags were, I don't think. Yeah. No. I think in my head it's going to be Bentley

Monning. Yeah. But yeah, in context, when you see it, it's like that Countess, right? In context

is where it's special. Yeah. And I think there's a video of that car floating through the centre

of Paris, and it just looks nuts. Yeah. So, I'm down for that. Is it as big as it looks? Yes.

Yeah. Right. It's huge. Yeah, I've got some good photos of it. It's vast. Yeah. The road's

really small. That car's really big. Yeah. Yeah. It's vast. It's spectacular size. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Okay. Yeah. Huge car. Yeah. There was a few years ago, it was a long time ago. I want to say like

10 years ago when they made like a project super car. I can't remember what it was, and they never

never released it. I don't know why, but it was absolutely stunning. CX 75. Yeah. And

yes, that's exactly what it is. And everybody took influence. All of the manufacturers took

influence. I put that into their sports car. Yeah. There was all sorts of interesting

vibrations back then, because I think, yeah, it came as the triumphant, wasn't it? CX 75 was

like going to be part of the four. And it was CX 75, LaFerrari 918 and P1. Yeah. They were the four

that were coming. And yeah, when they dropped CX 75, it had a compound charged 1.6 litre

four cylinder engine in it, built by Williams, like 1000 horsepower. Yeah. Wow. Because revs

to 10,500 RPM or something silly. It was 90% ready. Yeah. And the, who did I talk to?

A couple of super well respected journals had driven that car a week before they'd driven

918 for the first time. And the feedback was the Jag was, was better. Wow. But then the

project got killed. Yeah. It's because they were super nervous about XJ220, right? Yeah. Sure,

they were. Someone somewhere was like, this won't sell. Yeah. No, definitely, definitely.

Yeah, we've just struggled to sell 918, 918s. Oh, wow. Okay. Ah, right. Yeah,

they road showed that thing around the world, like twice. Yeah. Yeah. I think McLaren sold out

very fast and Ferrari just sells out. But yeah, Jag might have been caught upside down on that car,

just more than likely why they said no. Right. Okay. Yeah. I see that it's got a lot to keep

up with it, with its heritage there. It's got a lot to. Yeah. Ian's redevelop one hasn't he?

A Callum design. So there's one that's out there now. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, finished.

Oh, I'll have to have a look at that. Yeah, just with a different drivetrain. Yeah. Yeah,

definitely have to have a look at that. Yeah, I do like Jags. Yeah, I just love big, I love

big saloon cars. Yeah. Yeah, my granddad used to have like early 300s and 308s and Daimlers,

and yeah, he loved his big saloon cars, gangster cars. It's always a baddie car,

isn't it, into the movies. And that's why I drive a Gen 1 CLS Mercedes. Yeah. Yeah.

Because strangely enough, it was a Jag that Jag never built in my eyes. Yeah. That thing

is ace. Yeah. Just great big swoopy. Looks like it's already had a roof chop. Yeah.

My dad had won a few years ago. It would have been a few years because I'd have only been driving

for like two or three years. And he got me insured on it for one night. And it was absolutely

meant it was like perfect. It would have been about 50. It was like 2006. And this would have been

so like 2020. And I took it out like, yeah, I'll get you insured and you go and drive it,

you know, take, take Ellie out or whatever. And the wing mirror fell off and he sold it.

He was like, no, I just can't be dealing with it. If it's going to start to play,

I can't. It's going to start to fall apart. Yeah, it's going to start to fall apart.

It fell off or you hit it off? No, I actually, for this one time, it wasn't my fault.

Did you believe the doormat just fell off? Yeah, it did.

When you clip something.

Genuinely though, nine times out of 10, you'd be right. But no, this time, it just fell off.

It just fell off, okay. Yeah. I don't know what it was about, Jack.

Yeah. Other than the gangster saloon kind of thing.

No, I think they're cool. I don't know, they're cool.

Yeah, they are. I mean, what's their new demographic? What do you think they're new?

Yeah, you can see what they're stabbing at. Yeah.

I think that advert, albeit super controversial, told you where they were gunning.

It's a world that's never been catered to before. So, yeah, that kind of very aware,

very economically savvy, stylish world. Yeah. Jerry McGovern's a clever sausage

in so far as he's done it with Range Rover. He's done it with Defender.

Yeah. You'll see it happen with Jag. He'll find the market for sure.

It's just whether the products, they can sell enough, I suppose.

Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, that's the goal.

That's the goal. I think it's still 18 months out.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you look at someone now that's a later F-Types.

I mean, a fantastic value for money now. And they're so pretty.

Yeah. Yeah. They're so pretty.

It hasn't aged. You look at 2014, 50 and F-Type. It looks like, come out, yes?

Yeah. It's because Ian knows how to draw a car and his team.

Like Ian's a bit of a hero when it comes to the products that he's created over the years.

Absolutely. Both him and Julian Thompson.

Yeah, speaks wonders, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just changing the subject,

everything's slightly there, back to CNN. So, you sort of mentioned earlier,

from the start, you always had like a restaurant part of it. Has that sort of expanded over

the years? And I suppose going into it, what was it like then trying to cater for as many people

that were coming into the venue?

Yeah, it was tough. And it was based on road trip food. And it still is.

It's based on these silly adventures that I go on that you'll see photographed around the

buildings. But it's go get lost, meet someone new, eat in a restaurant you've never eaten before.

It's like that Anthony Bourdain model, isn't it? Find a dive bar, drink with a stranger.

I do that a lot myself and Laura. And yeah, we just tried to bring inspiration back.

The first menus were, let's just go Tex-Max. Super simple. Because we had no idea what we

were doing. It's a different ball game now. So yeah, we have a part-time exec chef. We work

with a company in London that listened and understood the brand and helped us deliver a

menu that we could deliver. And it didn't kill us on wastage and shrinkage and

yeah, all that sort of stuff. It became real. It became really real.

You tackle a lot of questions of people just saying, I put a stick of food truck in the yard.

And it was like I would, but then I couldn't pay the rent. Food trucks are great, but that's

another business. It's like we'll buy a food truck. 60, 60, 70. If you want a really

good 100. They're stingy, expensive. So yeah, the menu is critical. The food and drink

offerings critical. It's all critical. So it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. And you've got to,

you know, you've got to sort of accommodate a lot of people's sort of diet requirements and

specialisms and gluten-free this. Exactly. Yeah, look, and I'm down for that because I'm slightly

wobbly in the belly area anyway. And it was supposed to be funky, fresh, vibrant and catered

to those that were paleo to gluten. That's kind of where I stabbed it in the concept.

Because I was experiencing some interesting places when I was traveling, but it was also

some really nice places in Dubai run by an Australian guy and a Spanish guy. And they

had some amazing little restaurants. And it was like, I'll bear that mixed in with a car

community and you've got an interesting thing. Yeah. Still learn every day. I don't know

what, what the next move would be when it comes to food. I'd like to split outside and

inside. Okay. Yeah. Like I know that we as petrolheads like to walk around and go,

but holding something. Yeah. Okay. It's like the pasty model, isn't it? Yeah.

Like, is there something there? Can you do something inside that's different? Can you split

it out when it gets to evening different? You're back to the moving on question,

aren't you? Like, how many more things can you develop? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Supposedly non on from that, you know, talk about businesses on site really. I always

remember talking probably the early days, actually, you had Ben from string theory

site, didn't you? Yeah. I met him a few times, actually, bits and pieces done, but

was it just for him, he just wanted to sort of just expand, move on, do his own thing or

back to this. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't in a good place. I don't think he'd get out of bed at the

time. Right. I'm suffering with depression. Yeah. Super talented young guy. I met him

through Al Clark and Phil Morrison off of Driftworks and Alza, quite a well-respected

film director. And he's like, I've got an idea. I've got a shed. Yeah. So let's do this. So,

yeah, we gave him two years free rent. We fixed the building up. He put his branding on it.

We hooked him up with Dura with Dominic Wishlaid and string theory began. Yeah. And he was

literally doing vehicle alignment and setup using drop guides and spring and string. Yeah.

And he very quickly got a run. I remember listening to him having a conversation with

Matt Becker. Like, Ben knows his stuff. Oh, he does. Inside and out. And yeah,

string theory has gone on and developed twice. He left during lockdown, might have had a proactive

you need to go. I think he had 16 cars outside the workshop during lockdown and just

himself. Right. It's like, that's your signal, Ben. Like, this is working. So yeah, I think

he's expanded twice. Wow. Yeah, really? Subsequently, he's now he's still in Stratford

upon Aben. Obviously, still local. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Specializing in GR Yaris and GT4 RSs and GT3

RSs and still some terrible speciality. Yeah, he's just all about making cars go fast and

making them work. Yeah. Yeah. Because that little orange thing that you saw outside,

albeit it's laminated and on the floor, it's been corner waited and aligned and Ben made it

work. And it drives so nice, even though it's compromised. It's always, it's an art in itself,

isn't it? It's drive. Yeah. Yeah, there's videos of him online. Well, I've experienced it. Engage,

yeah, engage, bump on. Yeah, the guy can drift and skid around and quick around the ring and

yeah, he knows his stuff. He's a demon. Yeah, I mean, I love it when you meet someone who is

as embroiled and as impassioned with the world that they're working on as you are. Yeah.

That's rare. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, that was support. Yeah. Like, what else can

we do? How can we help? How can I push people in front of the right other people? You know,

photographers that used to hang on the wall, for instance, artists that used to hang on the wall.

Yeah, forward. Always. Exactly. Obviously, coming back to the I love you man thing,

obviously, it must feel good for you having known you're helping people out there,

you know, talking and just, just a bit of a feel, feel good really. I needed to be shown

it. Yeah. Okay. I needed to be shown it. Yeah. Laura was a big push in that realm.

Yeah, because the first I love you man was was super off the cuff. I think we dragged a sofa

up onto the hill and just started talking one evening. Yeah. And it just, it's become

a program and then it became governance. Yeah. It's important in a world now where

it's never been so, so talked about never been so high. I'm super alternative to you

guys though. Really? I don't record it. Right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Just a live event.

I've never recorded it. Yeah. And it's almost now a point where I feel like I can't record it.

Right. Okay. So I have to do like the after dark show or something. Well,

record the drive home. Yeah. Talk about how they felt after the event. Sure. Sure.

But yeah, it's been unscripted unrecorded. We've raised over 50 grand for charity since we

did it. And it's climbing like I think we should make an I love you man foundation. That would

be amazing. Yeah. First, you had Armstrong in for one of them, didn't you? Yeah. Matt was

Matt crazily. And I don't know how this happened. He triggered the biggest waiting list for tickets

that we've had in the history of the brand. Yeah. And it was a bloody I love you man night on a

Monday. You know, we're not talking like a busy Saturday afternoon. This was on Monday.

Yeah. That was interesting. Yeah. I had two and a half hour live chat

in the sunshine with people about Matt. Wow. That's interesting. Interesting kid.

I got a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I for what he's done is amazing really. Yeah. For where he

started from to where he's took the channel now. I mean, that was the first one that I did research

for. Was it really? Yeah. I sat and watched one of his videos and I made a load of notes. Yeah.

I spoke to a couple of people and it got me about I made a few notes. And then yeah,

sat down with my book ready and closed it. I was just like Matt, tell me about Matt.

I want to know Matt. Yeah. It was an interesting night. But yeah, we've had some great ones.

Dr. Andy Palmer three days after he got sat by Lawrence Stroll. Oh, wow. Oh, okay. Yeah.

First C-suite director on the sofa. George North from Baffle House. That was cool.

Like weight of the nation on your shoulders kind of approach. Yeah. Like when you run out on

the pitch and you are carrying whales. How does that make you feel? Magnus Walker,

who's behind you there. Porsche people know Magnus. A lot of people know Magnus for the

work he did in fashion. But like if you don't know Magnus, interesting, interesting guy.

What did he do for Porsche then? What? He became like the de facto outlaw Porsche guy.

Oh, cool. So like the big Porsche hot rod dude. Yeah. But he's a fashion guy, made a lot of money

in a clothing line called Serious Clothing. He's got like a collection of 50, 60 of them

in a big red brick building in downtown LA. Yeah. But the guy you were talking about

a second ago that I forget his name, sorry, had some interesting stories about Lawrence

Stroll as well. Dr. Andy Palmer. Yeah, that must have been a real challenge. He was a guy

that was very open about suffering, depression, controlling drugs, leaving a trail of devastation

behind you when your ultimate goal is to be chairman of an automotive group. Like he was

on it. He developed the Nissan Leaf as his dissertation. Wow. Okay. Wow. Dr. Andy Palmer

is an interesting guy. Yeah. And he's out of state school kind of like my local school just

around the corner from the hill. Yeah. He didn't have an axe to grind. He was just brutal.

Yeah. Like C-suite director. Yeah. Brutal. Yeah. I can't remember what I was watching,

but they were talking about when Lawrence Stroll turns up to the headquarters in his

helicopter like everyone's just head down. Yeah. Work, work, work. Fix up, look sharp. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not sure I'm totally down for that culture, but I like the level of respect that

everyone gives him. Yeah. Because he's not asked for it. No. He wears it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh,

yeah. He seems like a really scary kind of guy actually. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I love

him and will continue to grow. I need to develop it more. I think that's something

that needs a follow on. Yeah. Because it's been four or five years now of

this kind of secret thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think it needs a bit more push. Yeah. But that's a good

reason to record it, I suppose, is actually to make more awareness on it. So it hasn't

easy. You're already selling loads of tickets. It's for a great cause. Yeah. But then also you have,

it's like a non-selfish way of, you know, you're not monetizing that. It's a charitable

thing. Yeah. Everything for the night. All proceeds for the night will stop.

The issues get in the right guest. Yeah. Because it's, yeah, for every 10 you phone,

you get one. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you guys go through the same thing, but when your target

conversation is around opening up. Not everyone wants to. Not everyone wants to play that.

Cal Nicholas was very good. The F1 Red Bull mechanic. Yeah. Because we talked about

Jules Bianchi. He was rear end mechanic when Jules Bianchi passed away. He was very open

about it. Yeah. Some have been super, some just didn't go there. Right. No matter how I pressed,

they wouldn't answer it. Yeah. Which, yeah, you've got to talk about these things. You do.

Yeah. I think I'm one that believes, you know, I think people need to talk more about

their feelings. Well, it's a shared story, right? Yeah. You've got to be delicate. I

appreciate that as well. But, you know, talking makes it all better. Yeah. Everyone has someone,

something. Yeah. And it will always be difficult because men are notoriously bad at it,

which is why we untapped it and took it non-gendered. We started inviting women in.

They know how to express. Yeah. Yeah. Really good conversations, but less people turn up.

Really? Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. What less people turn up because...

It's a balance, right? If you're raising money for charity and you're raising awareness,

it's a really slippy, incentivized slope to go to someone that might not have mental health issues,

but might be white and wealthy. Right. Okay. Yeah. Whereas if you want to find someone that's

culturally on the fringe, culturally different, looks different to you,

can teach you, no one will turn up. Yeah. Yeah. And they're the nights where you end up

forgetting that there's anyone there and you just have this wonderful conversation

with someone that's got so much to give. Yeah. Yeah. And it should be heard more sort of thing.

Right. Yeah. And there's drive to survive is helped with that, but it's shown just how

volatile. If you talk about mental health, they all need therapists just to be in that

sport sometimes like, yeah, wow, it's crazy what goes on behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah.

It's brutal. And I don't know whether any of them have got counselors or maybe they do.

Yeah. They should do, especially if you're a team principal as well.

Yeah. I don't know how they sleep at night.

No, but that's the difficulty with being at the top.

Yeah. And they've all got daggers to each other, haven't they? Any slight advantage.

And there was this thing of, you know, did George and Toto Wolf, were they playing a game there?

You know what I'm going to reference? Like this whole George was spinning to Max.

That 100% for me, that was just purely to create

tension within the red. It was genius, really, if it was true.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They all do it. Every company does it.

At some level, they're all doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Dog eat dog environment.

Yeah. Hyper competitive. Yeah.

And if your competitiveness is predicated on making someone else wobble,

like make them wobble. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

You've done a few Formula One nights events here, haven't you?

Yeah. Yeah. We've done, we've had some interesting ones.

We did the first one we did was to raise money for dementia.

And we did that with Sir Jackie Stewart at the Hill.

That was a bangin' day. It was a heavyweight cars down.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like we had the, we had Jensen's championship winning, Braun,

we had Lewis's championship winning, Merck.

You didn't drive them in, obviously, no noise.

I did get to sit in it though. Yeah. Yeah, cool.

Yeah. We had some cool cars came down and a bunch of the kind of

private owners all chipped in to do that. Yeah. Wow.

And then we did a weekend with Alpine.

Fernando Alonso welcomed everybody and said,

hello and welcome to Kevin and Shane, which was nuts.

Is there a guest you are most, you know, like a hero you've had in the automotive world?

All of them.

Okay. Yeah. You haven't got like one, because you were like,

this guy was my hero and now he's at my, as such.

Yeah. I've had a few of them, Steve Cropley.

Yeah. Okay.

Automotive journalist.

Yeah.

Sends me messages. He's an iMessage guy.

Yeah.

Hey, Steve. Quentin Wilson.

Yeah.

Like Q is ace. I've got all the time in the world for Q.

And then yeah, just random ones, like Johnny Herbert and J.K.

Who was those? Some of them.

Like the biggest one that made me kind of just go super soft was Carl Cox.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Like pinch yourself. So like, what am I actually doing this?

The biggest house DJs has just walked into my place.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. And I fell over for him.

And then there's other ones that just customers who've become

friends that might live in different countries who I just had an

opportunity to catch a flat white and a chat with.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. They're the really important ones for me.

Everyone's a cog in the machine.

Yeah.

It just depends how big your cog is.

Yeah. It's like a humbling moment when you've got people like that

turning up for a charitable event or like an I love you man event.

A mega, amazing.

Yeah. Some of the ones that you see that you don't go and break into.

Yeah.

Like Nick Mason.

Yeah.

I wasn't going to go and disturb him.

No.

Like he was there because he wanted to enjoy cap in a machine.

Same with my arms.

Wrong.

Yeah.

But I think Matt sees CNN as a bit of a safe space.

Like he can come at two o'clock in an afternoon have a burger and no one

bothers him.

Yeah.

Right. Okay.

Like no one comes near him.

That's good.

And there's something about that that I've tried to like,

I've never lauded anyone.

You'll never see faces of famous people.

We never lauded anyone online because we're all the same.

We're all in this community just because you drive a 60 million pound

Ferrari doesn't make you any better.

No.

No, I like that ethos because you are right.

All the art is just that.

It's art.

There isn't a look.

We had Jackie Stewart at the, you know, at the caffeine and machine.

But they wanted it.

The community wanted it at the beginning.

They were like, why don't you have a Polaroid wall

of famous people through the yard?

And it was like, well, the whole building would be full of Polaroids

because I need to shoot you too.

Yeah.

Because you're equally as cool as that person.

But yeah, celebrity culture is a weird one.

Yeah.

And we try and I try and not celebrate it.

Yeah.

You're part of it.

Yeah.

Welcome.

Yeah.

Yeah, this guy.

No.

Yeah.

It's a really nice angle to look at it.

So yeah.

And to be honest, people become a community when they're here

as well, to be honest.

People you've never met before.

You're talking to and you'll become.

Yeah.

Look, there were all the peerless strap lines.

And maybe I'm just that guy.

But yeah, come meet a stranger that becomes a friend.

Really simple.

Like-minded people.

You never know.

I remember once, actually, I was in, just had that car.

And parked in, you saw me around to one of the hill.

You've got like the plinths on the grass.

Some bright spot just decided to park directly behind me.

Right, yes.

Which was great.

Yeah, fantastic.

And okay, so I've got to make an effort to try and get out of here

or otherwise I'll be here all night.

And then it's amazing within those sort of 30 seconds,

how many people are over with you,

seeing you out, watching you out and stuff.

And I feel like anywhere else that probably wouldn't happen

is because you share a love for cars.

Yeah, that takes years of curation.

Yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't happen overnight.

Yeah.

And it's been part of it.

Help people.

Be nice.

Don't ostracize.

Don't character assassinate.

Why would you?

Yeah.

I'm not here to pick on what you're wearing.

Why would I comment on your car?

If you want to have a pink car with green wheels.

You do that.

You knock yourself out.

Yeah.

That's what you were going to go for.

Oh, I'm pleased I didn't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Green car, pink wheels.

Yeah.

Yeah, we had a manifesto on the wall and it was something along the lines of,

I don't care how you express yourself as long as you do it with passion.

We're not the scene, we are the scene, we're one beautiful big gestalt,

which is basically a mush.

Yeah.

Like we're a mush.

Yeah.

And you've got to keep it that way.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I like that it's not who can turn up in the best car.

Yeah.

Oh, mate, there's always a sharpener.

Yeah.

Always.

Yeah.

Like no matter how, like we've, what's the best one we've had?

600 LT rolls in.

Wow.

Everybody's all over it.

Yeah.

All over it.

Ferrari F40 rolls in.

Yeah.

Everyone goes, oh, wow.

And they give it that way.

Yeah.

Two-way AGTO comes in behind it.

Yeah.

Everyone's over there.

DB Forzegato kills them all off.

Yeah.

Like done, 15 million quick car just rolls in.

So yeah, no matter how sharp your knife is, you're going to be outgunned.

Yeah.

And it's the cool stuff that really stands out.

Yeah.

Like really stands out.

Yeah.

What's the, what's the, the most, what's the favorite car that's rolled in for you?

What's like that?

Me personally.

Yeah.

Uh, some local guy's got a 32 Ford with a D-type engine in it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Like proper hot rod.

Yeah.

Wow.

Um, yeah, we've had some, had some crazy cars.

I just like the odd ones or the characters.

Yeah.

Well, I feel like there's a young lad, Matthew, that comes in.

He's got an Audi 80.

I think it's an Audi 80.

It might be an Audi 100 early, late 70s, early 80s.

Mustard yellow with green leather interior.

Oh, wow.

Um, and he's a big exponent for the gay classic car club.

Um, it's his first car.

It's like, you chose that?

Yeah.

Like, that's cool.

Yeah.

I'm all down for that.

Uh, and then, you know, a guy turns up in brand new Koenigsegg Jesko.

Like, it works for a lot of people.

Yeah.

Very, very cool.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

Oddballs.

Always, always.

A Hillman Imp with a high booster engine in the back.

Yeah.

Something in left field.

Yeah.

I mean, what does your personal garage look like then?

Because you must get some inspiration

from the things that come in here.

Different.

Yeah.

It went, it went big.

Yeah.

Back in the, back in the day when my father and I were super embroiled in it.

I've trimmed it all the way out now.

I've got a 57 oval bug, a 68912.

And my daily driver is a,

yeah, 2005 CLS 500.

I'm not in the chase for new stuff.

No.

Well, I love my CLS.

It's everything I want from a big barge.

Slammed on massive wheels with straight pipes.

You know, it's great.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, Laura, my other house,

got a gem one, um, Audi TT.

But yeah, I've had, I've had some heavyweight stuff.

Um, like big heavyweight stuff.

I've had an XJ220.

Yeah.

And that was a, that was a thing.

The 26,000 kilometers in that drove it a lot

over a 10 year period with no, no, no issues.

No, no.

Wow.

No, no.

Had turbo gaskets.

Occasionally there was 600 quid a go

because it didn't have the tech to cool the turbos down.

So you had to leave it ticking over for a bit.

And if it got hot, it got really hot.

Yeah.

Like glowing everything was inside the engine bake of glow.

Do you like that?

Then when cars have got a little bit of a quirk,

a little bit of a.

Yeah.

A 220 was completely nuttily flawed.

Yeah.

Um, but nuts, 9, 9, 11 is intrinsically flawed.

Yeah.

I like cars that are quirky,

that have got a character that stand out

that you don't see that often.

I think that's what makes it special,

when you're part of a crowd that,

but there was a,

I remember being in a McLaren P1 in Dubai,

a bright orange one,

and the guy was so psyched about it.

And we stopped at a traffic light

and there was a dude opposite

and exactly the same car.

And he was telling me about how it was like

this custom papaya pain.

It's like, what, like that one?

Brilliant.

And yeah, it even happens in that world.

Yeah.

And that was, that was in Dubai.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

We're in a world now where every new car has got

every single safety system going

and they go wrong.

And you know what?

Actually, the older stuff is now

becoming more appealing to people.

Yeah.

I was having a chat with a guy the other day

who had a GT,

Gen,

latest Gen GT3 RS wind thing.

It's like a spaceship.

And he was just getting really excited

about my tiny little narrow body,

90 horsepower.

I'm like, it's everything I need.

I can go flat out,

like flat out,

wringing its neck and go,

I'm doing 50 miles.

Yeah.

It can have too much power.

I'm not going to say it.

You can.

Yeah.

You know, as I've got a little older,

I've realized that too, actually,

having a thousand horsepower

is cool to say I've got a thousand horsepower.

But can you use any of that?

You know, I've got 70 horsepower.

Yeah.

700 kilos, 70 horsepower.

Yeah.

More than enough.

Yeah.

And you can use every single one of them.

Yeah, all the time.

Yeah.

And I'm not, I'm not hunting an overtake

because I know I can't do it.

Yeah.

So you end up backing away

and you run a safe distance

and you're enjoying the drive

and you're seeing things

and you're going, oh my god,

there's a cafe there that I hadn't even ever noticed before.

Yeah.

Because when you got your head down

and you're charging,

you miss these things.

Of course you do.

But in places like this.

Yeah.

So I know I totally,

totally understand that,

totally understand that.

But obviously, as it's evolved,

as well, you've started with merch and stuff.

Is that, obviously,

that is quite a popular thing.

Is that, what made you want to do

merch originally?

Was it just sort of?

Mate, right at the beginning,

it was just how many revenue streams

can we stack in to make this thing work?

Yeah.

I think it's pivoted more now.

It's gone from merchandise line

to my desire to have an apparel line.

Mm-hmm.

But I don't think the driver's markets

have ever been catered to properly.

Yeah.

In my way, just to justify that.

I think there's technical materials

that I'd really like to bring into play

that haven't been used,

that are very relevant to automotive

and racing and all that kind of stuff.

Interesting.

But that takes a ton of money, man.

Yeah.

Like, who knew?

Wayroll Tire.

Yeah.

Like, who knew?

Yeah, it looked like I was with Mark at Cobra,

seats recently,

and he was showing me this amazing

material that keeps you cool

but also keeps you warm.

Yeah.

And it's a military thing.

Yeah.

And it's paraffin in these tiny little,

like, how do you integrate that into clothing?

How do you bring Nomex into the,

like the back of a hoodie?

Yeah.

Because you've got relevance to the fact

that it's a Nomex race suit.

So, yeah, that I'd love to do.

Inspired by adventure.

Yeah.

We'll see what we can do.

We'll see where it goes.

Yeah.

But yeah, in the meantime, it's just a line item

that is additive

and you see people wearing it a lot.

It's really lovely.

Like, Jack and I shot Goodwood Festival of Speed recently

and we didn't shoot anything that was that good.

We just shot people wearing CNN clothing.

Well, okay.

And that became a really lovely project

just to go walking around finding people.

Yeah.

And say hello and say thank you.

Yeah.

I thought that was really cool.

Something you've done now.

Yeah, yeah.

Well.

And then I realized I could just take 10 years of archive photos

from Goodwood.

Yeah, true.

Just saying.

Yeah.

A question that we sort of always ask, really,

but what's the future for CNN?

Where is it going?

Is it going to remain?

Oh, mate.

I've still got deep, deep-rooted desires

to do an offshore version.

Like, the original concept was supposed to have one

in each country that I had a love affair with.

So, like, I wanted one in Kowloon in Hong Kong.

I wanted one in Tokyo.

I wanted one in Perth in Western Australia, Cape Town.

Be a Ritz.

Yeah.

San Diego, Seattle, Denver.

All these cool locations.

Kind of where my brain was at.

Yeah.

And then that's really dreamy.

Yeah.

And then realization struck.

And, yeah, the domestic play was the really obvious one

because if you put a geographical barrier

and it becomes really difficult.

Yeah, yeah.

I would adore to take this.

To a different culture.

Okay.

Whether I ever make it, I don't know.

Yeah.

Whether I ever make it, I don't know.

Caffeine and marine could be fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's all sorts of conversations

to play around with.

Yeah.

A big event would be cool.

Yeah.

Like a proper annual festival.

I think there's a space there.

Yeah.

But the minute I do that, I'd have to,

it would have to be big enough

to afford me to shut all the sites

that might be trading near it.

Yeah.

Or run it super skeleton.

But I'd want to invite everyone that works

to the festival.

Yeah.

YouTube.

I think there's a documentary side to this

that needs to come out.

It's my background, so I'd love to develop it.

Like proper storytelling, books, that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sure, it's a lot untold if you like.

Yeah.

Coffee.

Yes.

Yeah, coffee's burbling in the background right now.

So, yeah, we're going through a phase

of actually realizing that we can sell our own things.

So, we develop our own lager.

I'm staring at it now.

We've got our own coffee.

What's the lager called?

Is it just caffeine and machine?

I don't know.

I went right down the middle.

Okay, go on.

Lager.

Oh, you can't forget.

Lager by lager.

You can't forget it.

Lager.

Yeah, it's right there in front of you.

Yeah, all the way down to like menu books.

Right.

Like you could cook our stuff at home.

Yeah, there's so many brand flexes

that you could deliver.

It's always about which ones are beneficial

and which ones can you actually deliver.

Sure.

Yeah.

It's like legit which can you deliver

because we're still a tiny team, really.

There's a lot of people involved,

but in a central team, there's five of us.

Yeah, really?

And that's finance function, MD, HR, business strategy.

Wow.

Something like five of us, isn't it?

Yeah, that's crazy.

And that's still on social media.

But that's how tight it is.

Yeah, really?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, that's off to you really

because you're keeping it real.

You're watching it unfold between the same people

that I assume set up the hill originally.

No, it's transformed.

So we took on a managing director

about a year ago, a gentleman called Colin.

Like someone proper who knew what they were doing at the table.

So yeah, Colin is steering it.

And he has his first line of which I'm part of.

Yeah, it's his platform to smash now.

Like nail it in the manner that we all know it needs to be done

so that the brand can develop in the manner that it needs to.

Yeah, of course.

And I guess we do always ask this question as well,

but what does success look like to you?

Freedom to enjoy life.

We get wrapped up in too much stuff, don't we?

And money doesn't buy, it's so cliche.

Money doesn't buy memories.

And then someone went, well, you've got to have money

to get to where you want to go to to have a memory.

We, yeah, travel, adventure, success for me is the ability to do that.

But then it's untethering it.

Yeah, for me, that's quite a selfish answer, isn't it?

No, absolutely.

What you're doing is to enjoy life and pass down to, I guess...

Yeah, or flex the business to enable it.

I don't know what the next stage might look like.

I look closely at other businesses

that have got founders that are still there that are doing it.

Finestair is a really interesting one,

if you look at what the founder of Finestair is doing now.

Yeah, Dutch and Vicky at Bike Shed,

they're probably under slightly different circumstances.

Yeah, you could get lost in just living to work,

yeah, rather than working to live.

So yeah, my success is the ability to balance that as best I can,

without losing love affair with what I built it for.

Yeah, no, really good answer, really good answer.

Because I think, as you say, a lot of people are on that hamster wheel of,

as I say, living to work.

Yeah, I wish I understood that you're going to make bills pay,

you've got to do this, you've got to do that to live.

But at what point do you go, actually, what am I doing it for?

Yeah, digital gratification and doom-scrolling.

And yeah, I go somewhere completely random.

Like, whenever anyone asks, I did two weird trips this year

to countries that otherwise people probably would completely avoid,

I can't recommend them enough.

Like two weeks in Pakistan, like wow, what a place.

And then two weeks in Cuba.

Okay.

It was cheaper to go to Cuba than it was to go to Mallorca.

Go to Cuba, crazy.

And yeah, go and experience things that are completely out of your comfort zone.

Go and disturb your soul, because it rounds you.

Yeah, don't get trapped on the wheel of obvious.

Really, yeah, really, yeah, different interesting way to put it.

Finally, is there a fear or a danger of as caffeine machine grows and becomes a monster,

you lose that community soul?

Yeah, you worry about that.

Yeah, massive concern.

Huge concern.

You can see it as a template that's happened, right?

It's predicated on hiring the right people and having the right people to help

nudge you in the right direction.

Yes, I bless and block the brand, but the community bless and blocks me.

So if you listen, they'll tell you where you're doing it right and doing it wrong.

If you've got the right people, it just organically grows.

So yeah, culture is where that answer I think is founded.

So yeah, if you spend enough time ensuring that the team get what you're about, understand

you're like, I've got a very distinct brand house.

It's really simple.

It's conversation, inclusion, conversation, inclusion, community, and adventure.

Adventures down to the brand.

So if we're not doing conversation, community, and inclusion, we're missing

straight away and that's when the community dies.

So these guys need to be conscious about all the time.

Yeah, but yeah, the bigger it gets, the weirder it gets.

You put a geographical barrier in play.

It gets different again.

You put a culture in place.

It's different again.

You know, if we were in Dubai, this would be being run by Filipinos and Indians and

Sri Lankans and Bangladeshi people.

It'd be very different.

It'd be way cool.

Yeah, because of your background, obviously, you spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia and

you've spent obviously a lot of time in the UAE.

Would you not sort of like, would that not be the natural step?

And obviously if that's where you-

No, the city's madness.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, it's madness.

I would love to.

Don't get me wrong.

I've already dreamt about it, like a desert entrance, a road entrance,

an internal courtyard.

It would be a completely different proposition.

You could have 18-karat gold coffee cups.

There you go.

Yeah, turn up for that.

And it's, yeah, Karak and all that kind of stuff.

The future.

Yeah, the future in Schwarma.

Karak in Schwarma.

Yeah, culturally they would have to ebb and flow.

And that original kind of concept years ago was, you know,

what would the one in Saudi look like?

Oh, gosh.

Because it would be completely different.

You know, back when we were conceptualizing it,

it would have to have had a female section and a male section

and a family section.

Yeah, wow.

Now it's different.

But back then it was, that was what I was staring at.

Yeah.

Yeah, look, there are businesses out there

that have successfully rolled out into different continents

whilst they've kept their soul.

Deus is a really good one.

Yeah.

It's a different ball game now, but, you know,

they had a Bali version.

They had a Venice Beach version, Milan,

Camperdown on Bondi Beach.

And they all felt completely different.

Yeah.

Soho does it.

Yeah.

Soho group, you know, it might be a club

and it might be expensive to get into,

but when you're in it,

farmhouse is different to Portland Street,

is different to this, is different to that.

Yeah.

You all have that, you have that automotive

concept for everyone to relate to.

So you still have that sort of to carry over

to a different culture.

Yes.

You might have to tweak it a lot.

That dissimilar.

Yeah, you'd be really surprised if I kind of,

if I took you to downtown Amman

and we walked around Jordan,

you'd be like, Christville, this is like,

it feels like the UK car scene.

This is, we're all the same.

Yeah.

And the products don't change.

Yeah.

You just find that they all love evos

or impress us because they love hill climbing.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So it's predicated on location.

It's like, oh, I go to Thailand.

It's all pickup trucks or vans.

Yeah.

You see them in different areas.

Yeah.

I like it.

Did I answer the question?

Probably not.

No, no, you did.

You did.

No, absolutely you did.

Yeah.

I like this one.

I've only ever been to the hill and now the bolt.

So I like this one.

I like the location.

I like the, yeah.

I, yeah, when we walked into this place,

I was like, wow, this is trousers.

Yeah.

Because it doesn't look anything like it does inside,

as it looks outside.

It's super Tardis-y.

Yeah.

Which might be why it's blue.

That's where it's coming from.

Yeah, it's our kitchen.

Yeah, yeah.

All the colours of the buildings are in my house.

Oh, really?

Okay, interesting.

Yeah.

And then green is green

and we opened on St. Patrick's Day

because we painted it green.

So the heart's green.

Yeah.

Hence St. Patrick's Day opening.

So they all had a story.

Kinda, I've just never told it.

No, no, no, you go.

I feel like I spent too long working at Jag.

Yeah.

But they were terrible at not telling their own story.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

First time to ever put disparates on a card

and tell anyone.

Yeah.

Is there, is there,

you worked in the product department.

Is there a, I wish you did that.

I got a lot of fluidity when I was at that stage

because it was, so it was product in the UAE

late 2000s.

Engineering to order was the department at the time

it's subsequently become SV.

Yeah.

And I think it was SVR before it's now become

special vehicles.

But yeah, back then it was so flexible.

Like we threw ideas back at Central

and they went, well, if you can do it, do it.

Oh, wow.

You know, we launched HST Bodykit

on Range Rover Sport.

Yeah.

We did Blackpacks on cars

before Blackpacks were a thing.

We did Greg Norman's special edition

with, again, with Range Rover Sport

for the Fire and Earth Golf course.

We got away with all sorts.

And then all of a sudden,

like curb impact tests,

because we were like, we're going to put

22-inch wheels on every car that comes through the,

comes through the showroom.

And that's when stuff.

Sure.

Yeah, it's like, well, we've got,

we've got a full panoramic glass roof

and we've not tested curb impact on 22-inch wheels.

So if someone impacts a curb,

the roof's going to shatter.

So all of a sudden, yeah,

we press too many boundaries.

Okay.

But by which time I left that job

and gone more on to the creative side.

But yeah, we did some fun stuff.

Is there anything I would have done?

Louder exhausts.

Okay, yeah.

I was a big exponent for our product

at the time having slightly different body panels.

Yeah.

Again, it's a template that's proven, right?

Yeah.

320 diesel should not look like an M3.

Yeah.

Whereas an XFR looked like an XF diesel.

Yeah.

And in actual fact,

the XF diesel was quicker at top end

because it didn't have a restrictor.

Yeah.

So if you're on Autobahn and you were in an XFR,

someone in an XF 2.7 diesel would come sailing

past that luck because there was no limiter.

Yeah.

Is that the F-Type though?

The exhaust noise, they nailed that car.

On the last generation cars, yeah.

Yeah.

The noise on the top gear, I'll never forget it.

And when that...

Supercharger wind.

Yeah.

Oh.

Three emissions to get.

Yeah, yeah.

2014.

When they got rid of all that Supercharger wind,

it got muted down and they used to be loud,

like this Type R was loud.

Yeah.

X308 with a Supercharger and it was loud.

Yeah.

But yeah, within the confines of what I was allowed to play with,

I think I got away with quite a lot.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It was just using dealer body shops, really.

It's all we were doing.

It was like, how can we make 10 cars that look the same?

Yeah.

And sell them.

You know, we got a load of stock white XKRs.

It's like, well, can we put a lower lip kit on it?

Yeah.

And they were like, yeah.

And can we put black wheels on it?

Like, yeah.

And can we change the head wrap?

Yeah.

So yeah, we got nods left, right and centre to sell 15.

Yeah.

Because that was 15 wholesale out the door tick.

We'll move on to next month.

Okay.

Right.

Yeah.

Loads of like Mazda back in the day with their MX-5 special editions

when they were in like Gen 2.

They'd be a special edition like every week.

Yeah.

Because they were just forcing people to buy cars.

Yeah.

Sure.

They're kind of marketing.

Yeah.

Why not?

Why can't you have something different though?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, it's now a monetisable thing.

You refer to it, your cars are special green.

Yeah.

When I was back then, I was forcing the special green

to try and sell the car.

Try to sell it.

Whereas now you're...

There's a load of people that are paid for that.

Yeah.

Is it Sandor Watch, the Porsche thing?

But how do we make exclusivity even more exclusive?

Yeah.

Paint sample.

Well, why can't I just have any colour?

No, no, no, no.

You can have those colours.

Special customers can have those colours.

You got it.

Yeah.

And if you've bought X number of cars,

you now have access to those colours.

Yeah.

Capitalism's dirty.

Yeah.

I did read some actually Porsche have profits of

marginalised a little bit.

So maybe...

Yeah, I was reading the same article.

Yeah, they're struggling a little bit, aren't they?

Yeah.

I think they all are.

Hmm.

Yeah.

I think every car brand in the world is struggling right now.

I find it so bizarre for a business to be able to turn people away.

You know, say no, sorry, you can't buy that.

That's not...

The allocation's not for you.

We'll make more cars.

Yeah.

I mean Ferrari are very successful in it for years,

but they run on very limited volume.

Yeah.

Whereas Porsche is really large.

Yeah.

Um...

But Ferrari's line up in terms of,

okay, yeah, they've got the pure Sangway model.

But they don't make saloons.

They don't make, you know, estate cars that their line up is still quite a big line up,

considering that's what they do and...

And they don't want...

They don't want everyone having one.

Yeah.

But yeah, we can still have that...

Which is why I see more Lambo's than you do for a Ferrari these days.

Yeah.

Because Lambo have just gone...

Yeah.

...open the tap.

Yeah.

That's a brand that's had a transformation cracking.

Hmm.

Lambo's cool again.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah.

I mean that...

That...

That kind of estate...

Well, so it's completely different to the Vantador previously.

Yeah.

You couldn't get any further.

Single clutch, you know, V12, quite analog really.

And you've got the new one, which is just completely the opposite.

Yeah.

I take a diablo every day.

Yeah.

Well, there you go.

Yeah.

Exactly.

I've never been...

Yeah.

Ever been excited about Lamborghinis, other than the Mercedes-Benz Lago.

That's...

LM002.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

The truck.

Yeah, that's it.

That's something.

Yeah.

It's just...

Again, you just don't see them.

No.

And they're not nice to drive.

No.

That thing's not nice to drive the Countess, actually.

It's on the wall behind us.

You know, we're talking about concept cars.

It seems like every Lamborghini is a concept car, and they've just gone,

yeah, do it.

That's the one credit I'll give to them.

If they, you know, if it's bad and wild...

I wonder if they're going to design clinic.

Yeah.

Because it's the kind of car that you couldn't do a clinic on.

No.

Because I'd walk out and go, mmm.

And you see it like a year later, and it's like, wow.

Yeah.

And again, a context.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a context.

Well, as you say, they've always done that, haven't they?

They've always been, that's the concept car.

And that's the, oh, it looks the same thing.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm sure there's an industry story.

Do you remember the Ford Scorpio with the big goggle eyes?

No, I can picture it, yeah.

Yeah, apparently that missed clinics.

Oh, right, okay.

Which is why it appeared.

Oh, right, I see.

I see.

Have a look at it.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm looking at the Granada Scorpio.

It was like this thing that happened in the late 90s.

Yeah.

Questionable.

Yeah, that should never have made it through.

No.

Never have come out.

No.

Yeah, well, there you go.

Well, thank you very much.

No, no, no.

Thank you for your time.

Really appreciate it.

Well, if you've enjoyed this episode with Phil,

please make sure to like, comment, subscribe,

and let us know who you want on Talking Shop Next.

Phil McGovern on Starting Caffeine & Machine, Angry Local Residents and Overseas Plans

About this episode

Fiat 500

Citroen 2CV

Lotus Esprit

Porsche 918 Spyder

Ferrari LaFerrari

Jaguar XJ220

Peugeot 308

Mercedes-Benz CLS

Land Rover Range Rover

Perodua Alza

Toyota GR Yaris

Nissan Leaf

Ferrari F40

Jaguar Dtype

Audi 100

Koenigsegg Jesko

Imp Hillman Imp

Audi Tt

Mclaren P1

BMW M3

Lamborghini Lm002

Ford Scorpio

Ford Granada

Request an Explanation

Want to learn more?

Help improve this episode

More from Talkin' Shop