Rivian Built an E-Bike?! 100-Mile Range & No Chain (Also TM-B First Ride)
The InEVitable · Apr 13, 2026
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Concept
final mile
The “final mile” is the last part of a trip—getting to the exact place you need to go. It’s important because that short distance is where delivery and local travel tools really have to be practical.
Topic
Rivian Hub in Venice, California
They’re recording at Rivian’s place in Venice, California. It’s basically the backdrop for the product introduction.
Company
Also
Also is the company that makes the e-bike they’re going to ride. The hosts say it started from Rivian, so it’s connected to the EV maker.
Concept
Stunk Works project
A “Skunk Works” project is like a small team working on a risky idea. It’s meant to move fast and try something new before it becomes a real product.
Car
TMB
The TMB is Rivian’s electric bike. The big claim is that it’s built more like a car than a typical bicycle—focused on the overall experience and durability.
Concept
vehicle first, recreational device second
They’re saying the bike is designed to be a real way to get around, not just something for fun. That usually means it’s built sturdier and more thoughtfully engineered.
Term
portal display
The portal display is basically a screen you look at while riding. They’re comparing it to the kind of screen experience you get in a Rivian car.
Term
heads up infotainment screen
It’s a screen that’s meant to be easier to see without taking your eyes off the road. The goal is to make information feel more “in your line of sight.”
Term
vehicle grade
“Vehicle grade” means the parts are built to last like they would in a car, not like cheap bike accessories. It’s about sturdiness and reliability over time.
Term
dream ride propulsion system
The propulsion system is the electric power that makes the bike move. They’re saying it’s designed to feel great to ride, not just to “work.”
Term
battery that powers it
The battery is what stores the electricity for the motor. They’re implying it’s built to car-like standards so it should be safer and last longer.
Concept
front suspension
Front suspension is the part of a bike that helps soak up bumps in the front wheel. It can make the ride smoother and help the tires stay in contact with the ground.
Concept
rear suspension
Rear suspension is the bike’s back shock/absorber. It helps smooth out bumps so the back wheel doesn’t bounce as much.
Concept
series hybrid
In a series hybrid, your pedaling mainly helps generate electricity, and a motor uses that electricity to move the bike. That can make the assist feel more consistent and “tuned” to your effort.
Term
pedal by wire
“Pedal by wire” means when you push the pedals, it doesn’t directly turn the rear wheel with a chain. Sensors read what you’re doing and send signals to a motor that moves the bike. It also lets the bike manage power more flexibly.
Term
no chain
“No chain” means the bike isn’t using the usual chain that connects the pedals to the back wheel. Instead, it uses a different way to transmit power to the rear wheel. That can change maintenance and how the bike is built.
Term
belt drive
A belt drive uses a belt to move power to the rear wheel instead of a chain. Belts are usually quieter and don’t need oil like chains do. In this bike, the belt is powered by a motor, not directly by your pedaling.
Concept
drive motor
The drive motor is the electric motor that turns the rear wheel. It receives signals based on how you’re pedaling, then it decides how fast to spin the wheel. So your pedaling tells the motor what to do.
Concept
generator
A generator turns your pedaling into electricity. Instead of using a chain to spin the wheel, the bike uses that electricity to run the motor. It can also store some of that energy in the battery.
Concept
traction motor
An electric traction motor is the part that makes the bike move. It uses electricity to spin the wheel and help you go faster or up hills.
Car
Rivian R1
Rivian’s R1 is one of their electric vehicles. They’re saying the e-bike uses the same kind of battery cells as the R1, so it’s not a random, one-off battery design.
Concept
battery cell type
A battery is made of smaller units called cells. “Cell type” means the specific kind of battery chemistry/design, and using the same type can make the battery cheaper and more predictable.
Concept
cost benefit
Cost benefit means the battery can be cheaper because they’re buying/using a lot of the same parts. Making more of the same cells usually reduces the price.
Concept
cells
Cells are the building blocks inside a battery. More cells usually means more total energy capacity, but the exact number depends on what the device needs.
Concept
economies of scale
Economies of scale is when making more of something makes each one cheaper. For batteries, buying and producing in bigger quantities can lower the cost per battery.
Concept
battery cell utilization / getting more out of each cell
They’re talking about how you can squeeze more useful performance out of the same battery cells. The key is doing it in a controlled way so the battery still lasts long enough to meet the warranty.
Term
voltage
Voltage is basically how strong the battery’s electrical “push” is. They’re saying Rivian can set things up so the battery can deliver more power without harming it too quickly.
Term
temperature
Battery temperature matters because heat can wear batteries out faster. They’re saying Rivian can manage temperature so the battery still meets warranty expectations.
Term
warranty
A warranty is the guarantee that if something fails or degrades too much, the company will cover it. They’re saying Rivian can push the battery harder as long as it still stays within what the warranty allows.
Concept
e-bike battery energy vs range tradeoff
It’s not only about how big the battery is. Two batteries with the same energy can still go different distances if one delivers power more efficiently.
Term
watt hours
Watt-hours tell you how much energy is stored in the battery. More watt-hours usually means you can ride farther, assuming the bike uses power at a similar rate.
Term
100 miles of range
Range is how far the e-bike can go before the battery runs out. It depends on battery size and how much power the motor needs, so real-world results can vary.
Term
motor assist
Motor assist is the electric help the bike gives you while you pedal. It usually stops helping at a certain speed, but you can still keep pedaling faster under your own power.
Term
28 miles an hour
28 mph is the maximum speed at which the bike’s motor assist provides power in this configuration. It’s a key spec because it affects how quickly you can travel while still relying on electric assistance.
Term
80 pounds
Bike weight matters for handling, acceleration, and especially for carrying or lifting the bike. The segment also notes that the weight can be reduced by removing components, which can make the bike more practical day-to-day.
Term
power bank
A power bank is basically a battery you can use to charge your phone. Here, the e-bike’s battery can also power your phone through a USB connection.
Term
USB-C
USB-C is the common plug shape used for charging phones and other gadgets. They’re saying the bike has USB-C ports built in so you can charge your phone easily.
Concept
top frame
The top frame is part of the bike’s main structure near the top. They’re saying they designed a new frame piece to fit the e-bike’s battery and make the bike work better.
Term
seat tube
The seat tube is the part of a bike frame that sets where the seat goes. Your seat post slides into it so you can adjust how high you sit.
Term
seat post
The seat post is the part that lets you move the seat up or down. It helps you get comfortable and reach the pedals correctly.
Term
DreamRaw
DreamRaw sounds like the name of their e-bike platform or frame design. They’re talking about it in the same breath as the battery and the low-mounted layout.
Concept
skateboard
They’re calling the battery/electronics area a “skateboard” because it’s built like a flat platform low in the bike. That can help the bike feel balanced and easier to ride.
Concept
throttle
On an e-bike, the throttle is like a power switch you control with your hand. It tells the motor how hard to push, so you don’t have to pedal as much.
Term
banana seat
A banana seat is the long, curved seat shape you might see on classic-style bikes. It’s usually more comfortable for sitting in one position.
Term
drop it right on like a ski boot
This describes a quick-mount or snap-in attachment method for the bike’s top frame/seat module. The “ski boot” comparison suggests a secure, easy-to-engage connection that can be removed and reinstalled quickly.
Term
rear light
A rear light is the light at the back of the bike so other people can see you. It can also include extra signaling like turn indicators.
Term
turn signals
Turn signals are the lights that blink when you’re turning. They help cars and pedestrians know where you’re going.
Term
sense pins
“Sense pins” sound like little connectors that tell the bike when a part is attached correctly. That helps the bike work safely and reliably after you swap modules.
Concept
key-based personalization
Key-based personalization means the car remembers your preferences and loads them when it recognizes your key. So you don’t have to adjust everything every time you drive.
Term
auto adjust
Auto adjust means the car moves your seat (and sometimes other controls) to your saved position. It uses your key/profile so it knows who you are.
Term
ride mode
A ride mode is a setting that changes how the car drives. If you like a certain feel, the car can remember it and switch to that mode when you get in.
Term
haptic feedback
Haptic feedback is a kind of “feel it in your hand” notification, usually through vibration. It can confirm actions like shifting or changing modes so you don’t have to look as much.
Concept
electric motorcycle (no pedals)
They’re describing an electric two-wheeler that doesn’t have pedals, so it rides more like a scooter or motorcycle. That usually changes how it’s regulated and how you control it.
Brand
Rad Power
Rad Power is a company that makes electric bikes you pedal, but the motor helps you. It’s a common brand people buy for commuting.
Brand
Sauron
They’re talking about another electric bike brand besides Rad Power. The exact brand name is a bit unclear in the transcript, but it’s part of their “which e-bikes have you tried?” list.
Term
pedals are connected to the wheel
They’re saying when you pedal, the bike responds in a way that feels directly tied to your pedaling. That matters because it can make the ride feel smoother and more predictable than bikes that mostly use a throttle.
Term
cadence of pedaling
Cadence just means how quickly you’re turning the pedals. They’re saying that even when the hill gets harder, they don’t have to pedal faster to keep going at the same speed.
Concept
e-bike assist maintaining speed on hills
On a hill, a normal bike usually slows down unless you pedal harder. With an e-bike, the motor can add extra help so you can keep your effort and still keep your speed up.
Term
automatic gears
Automatic gears shift for you. Instead of you deciding when to change gears, the bike tries to pick the right one so you don’t have to think about it.
Concept
electric bike conversion
An electric bike conversion means turning a regular bike into an e-bike by adding a motor and battery. The “feel” depends on how well the system is set up, not just on having a motor.
Company
Switch
Switch is mentioned as the company behind an electric conversion kit. The idea is you add a motor and battery to a regular bike so it can assist you like an e-bike.
Part
front wheel hub motor
A front wheel hub motor is a motor inside the front wheel. Instead of helping through the pedals, it pushes the front wheel directly, which can change how the bike accelerates and handles.
Term
pedal sensor
A pedal sensor is what detects your pedaling so the bike can decide when to add electric help. If the sensor timing is off, the bike can feel jerky or unpredictable.
Term
accelerates off the line
This is how fast the bike gets going right after you start from a stop. On e-bikes, that initial launch can feel either smooth or startling depending on the motor and control settings.
Concept
auto mode
Auto mode is when the bike decides how much help to give you. Instead of you constantly adjusting settings, it tries to match the power to what you’re doing.
Concept
manual mode
Manual mode means you’re telling the bike what level of performance you want. Instead of the bike guessing, you pick the setting (like a higher or lower assist level).
Term
sport mode
Sport mode is a button or setting that makes the car feel more “eager.” It usually makes acceleration respond faster so the car feels quicker when you press the pedal.
Term
all purpose
“All purpose” is basically the normal, everyday setting. The point is you don’t need to constantly switch modes—this one works for most situations.
Term
range anxiety
Range anxiety is the feeling that your battery might run out before you get where you’re going. It happens because battery life changes depending on how you ride and the conditions.
Term
conserve mode
Conserve mode is a setting that helps you go farther on a single charge. It usually makes the vehicle less “power-hungry” so you don’t run out of battery as quickly.
Concept
steering by wire
Steering-by-wire means the steering wheel doesn’t mechanically connect to the wheels the old way. Instead, sensors and computers translate your steering input into movement.
Concept
torque sensor
A torque sensor figures out how hard you’re pushing on the pedals. The bike then uses that info to decide how much help the motor should give you.
Concept
torque delivery / acceleration parameters
They tested how hard you pedal, how braking feels, and how the bike speeds up. Then they use that data to program the bike so it reacts smoothly.
Term
gear shifting
Gear shifting is how the bike changes “gearing” so your pedaling matches the speed you’re getting. On e-bikes, it can happen automatically, and the bike may need to make it noticeable so you don’t feel confused.
Concept
auto transmission style
Auto transmission style means the bike chooses the gear for you. Instead of thinking about what gear you’re in, you just pedal and the bike handles the shifting.
Concept
e-bike assist level
On an e-bike, “assist level” is how strongly the motor helps you when you pedal. If you use the highest help all the time, the battery won’t last as long; if you use low help, you can go farther.
Concept
0 to 100 charge time
“0 to 100” means charging the battery from empty to full. The key takeaway is how many hours you need to wait before you can ride again.
Concept
proprietary bike components / proprietary everything
“Proprietary” means the bike uses special parts that aren’t standard. If those parts break, you may have to go back to the brand for repairs instead of using a local shop or common parts.
Term
seat bus thing
They’re talking about a special part of the bike’s frame/connection system. The important takeaway is that it may not be compatible with normal bike parts or standard repair approaches.
Concept
can't get serviced anywhere / service lock-in
They’re worried that if the bike is designed in a way that only the brand can fix it, you can’t just take it to any local shop. That can make repairs harder and more expensive.
Concept
software-based service / subscription pricing for features
They’re wondering if the bike’s features might be locked behind an app or subscription. Instead of buying a bike with everything included, you might have to pay monthly to unlock upgrades.
Term
10 speeds
“10 speeds” means the bike can shift through ten different gear settings. They’re joking that the bike might charge you to unlock extra gears later.
Term
open source
They’re saying most bike parts are standardized, so you can usually mix and match brands. That means it’s easier to repair or upgrade your bike without being locked into one company.
Term
quick releases
Quick releases are the levers that let you take a wheel off quickly. Instead of using tools, you flip a lever to loosen and tighten the wheel.
Term
Allen wrench bolts
An Allen wrench is the small hex key tool. These bolts are used so you can adjust parts like the seat without special equipment.
Term
29 inch mountain bikes
29-inch means the bike’s wheels are bigger than older common sizes. Bigger wheels can help the bike roll over bumps more easily.
Concept
proprietary vs standardized bike parts
They’re talking about whether a bike uses parts that only one brand makes, or parts that many brands share. Standard parts are easier to replace; proprietary parts can be better in some ways but may be harder to service.
Term
flat tire
A flat tire is when your bike tire loses air because of a puncture. It’s common, and it’s why having replacement tires that are easy to find is important.
Term
tire size
Tire size is the exact dimensions of the tire that will fit your bike. If the size is common, you can replace it quickly at most bike shops.
Term
brake pads
Brake pads are the parts that slow the bike down by pressing against the wheel. They wear out over time, so being able to replace them easily is key.
Term
basket or rack
A basket or rack is an accessory mounted to the bike frame or seat-post area to carry items. The discussion focuses on how the mounting method affects how quickly you can swap carrying setups.
Concept
hot-swap
Hot-swap just means you can change parts quickly. Instead of taking the bike apart, you attach or remove an accessory in seconds using a simple connection.
Term
aftermarket
Aftermarket parts are things made by companies other than the original brand. They’re often designed to fit your bike so you can add accessories beyond what came in the box.
Term
mechanical connection
A mechanical connection is how parts physically lock together. The point is that it should be strong and secure, so accessories don’t wobble or fall off.
Concept
Murphy's Law
Murphy’s Law means “things will get annoying when you least want them to.” They’re saying that swapping accessories can take way longer than expected if you have to hunt for parts or remove extra pieces.
Term
saddle
The saddle is just the bike seat. People ask about it because the right one can make riding comfortable instead of painful.
Term
proprietary battery
A proprietary battery is a battery that only works with that bike’s system. That can be convenient, but it can also mean you’re limited to that brand for replacements or upgrades.
Concept
swappable battery pack
A swappable battery means you can take the battery out and put in a fully charged one fast. Instead of charging for hours, you can swap and keep going—if the system is supported.
Concept
battery swapping
Instead of plugging the battery in to charge, you take it out and put in a fully charged one. It’s meant to be fast—more like stopping for fuel than waiting for charging.
Term
micro-mobility industry
Micro-mobility is the world of small electric rides like e-bikes and e-scooters. Companies in this space care a lot about convenience—like how batteries are handled—because riders expect quick, easy use.
LIVE
All right, there we go.
Yeah, that's fast.
Oh, that's cool with the uphill.
You feel it, like I'm barely pedaling.
Yeah, all of it is surprisingly intuitive.
I mean, it feels very natural no matter what you do.
This is excellent, by the way.
It's so cool.
This thing's dope.
Yes.
I love it.
I'm sold.
What a cool thing.
Yeah, very clever and very cool.
Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.
Hi there, welcome to The Inevitable.
This is Motor Trend's podcast, our podcast
about the future of cars, the future of mobility,
the future of transportation, the future of the final mile.
We are here at the Rivian Hub in Venice, California
with a product called Also, and Ed's
going to tell you a little bit about it.
Oh, I'm not going to tell you about this.
We're going to have a guest to tell you about this.
But I'm going to tell you that The Inevitable is currently
sponsored by nobody, so if you want to sponsor us,
please hit me up, edward.lowathurst.com,
edward.loh.hrst.com, or slide in to our DMs.
And yes, we are here at Rivian's Venice Hub.
I got a helmet on because we're going to eventually ride
one of these bikes.
But before we do that, we are going
to have the head of product for Also, that's the manufacturer.
Come on and give us a walk around,
and then we are going to go for a ride.
So let's bring him on.
Saul Lakin, Lakin like Bacon.
Here he is.
Please come on.
Saul, thank you so much for hosting us.
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for having us.
And so what a cool spot.
What a cool thing.
The company is also, and we're here at Rivian's Venice Hub
because there's connection between the two companies.
So first tell us about that.
Absolutely.
Also was born from Rivian a little over a year ago.
We started as kind of a Stunk Works project
with Inside Rivian with the task
of bringing the magic that you get when you ride in R1
to smaller form factors.
And we decided to start with an electric bike.
This is the TMB, or the Transcendent Mobility Bicycle.
Transcendent Mobility Bicycle.
All right.
Very Hustrel of you.
If you want all the magic that you get out of a Rivian,
but you want the wind in your hair,
you're looking at the TMB here.
This is really one of the first bicycles on the market
that was really designed as a vehicle first
and a really awesome recreational device second.
And that is what's so critical about the TMB
and what distinguishes it from everything
else that's on the market.
The experience you get on here for everything
from our portal display, which is very similar to having
like a heads up infotainment screen in your Rivian.
That is vehicle grade.
The durability of this is vehicle grade.
And of course, our dream ride propulsion system
and the battery that powers it
are also all automotive grade.
And they can provide that same magic
but through a pedaling experience
rather than through a throttle pedal experience.
If I may be a cynic for a second
and as someone who does like Rivian,
what's the magic?
I don't keep saying magic, but what is this magic?
Well, something you hear about from Rivians, right,
is that people can drive a pickup truck
and it can feel kind of like a sports car.
Yeah, right?
Well, you get the same thing out of the TMB.
You're looking at this bike.
If you squint, you can sort of see a mountain bike, right?
Cause you can see a front suspension.
You can see a rear suspension.
Well, if you are an experienced cyclist,
you often think of suspension
as something that's going to slow you down.
Well, the ride on the TMB
is one of the fastest rides you'll ever experience.
So you're not going to run into that.
There's some magic for you right there.
The other thing that you can do on the TMB
thanks to DreamRide's series hybrid pedal by wire system
is we've totally separated the sort of physical experience
of moving the pedals from the motion
of the rear wheel of the bike.
So it's pedal by wire?
It's pedal by wire,
which means that instead of having a mechanical connection,
right, most bikes have a chain
that connects somewhere around here with the rear wheel.
Well, as you can see on the TMB, there is no chain
and the belt that does drive the rear wheel
is not connected directly to the pedals.
It's connected to a motor up here.
And what you're pedaling is actually a generator.
And that generator has two jobs.
It sends an electrical signal first to this motor up here
to tell that motor how to behave
and how to spin that rear wheel.
That is the pedal by wire aspect.
And then the other aspect is that it sends
some of that electricity back to the battery
to charge the battery as you ride.
And that's kind of the series hybrid aspect
of the dream ride system.
And then you got a system.
Our legs are like the engine in the series, the hybrid.
Your legs are kind of one of three motors.
That's right, your legs is motor one.
The generator you're pedaling is motor two.
And then what we call the traction motor up here
is motor number three.
And you were saying something earlier
before we started filming about the battery here
which is interesting was that there's
Rivian technology in this battery.
That is exactly right.
So just have some blue tape on it, ignore that.
This battery here contains the very same cell type
that is in the R1 just to my left.
What's really cool about that,
there's a lot of cool things about that, right?
One is that we get to benefit from everything
that Rivian does with those cells.
One of that of course is a cost benefit.
There's almost 8,000, yeah that's right.
As everyone knows.
They're buying a lot more batteries
than most electric bike companies, yeah.
That's right, there's Justin, there's R1.
There's famous for 7,777 cells.
This battery has about 40 cells in it.
So you can just get a sense of the economies of scale there
and how when we can benefit from that purchase
we can come with a much more cost competitive battery
than anyone on the market.
The other thing that we can do,
someone who buys a lot of cells like Rivian
can have some conversations with their cell suppliers
in such a way that a typical e-bike brand
might not have the buying power to do so.
So a great example of that is that Rivian cells
actually get more out of each cell
than that same cell put into another car
and what you're saying is like,
so what, like I'm making this up,
but competitor A would call zero on a Rivian
is really like minus 10,
in other words you get more out of the,
more juice out of the side cell.
That's right, you can get more,
you can get more voltage on a given cell,
you can operate that cell at a higher or lower temperature,
different things like that
and still preserve the warranty,
that's the important part.
So all of those conversations that Rivian has had
with its cell suppliers also benefits from.
And therefore what we can say about this battery is
yeah, we haven't actually like created
the world's largest e-bike battery or something like that,
but what we have done is for the same watt hours,
which is how you measure e-bike batteries
instead of kilowatt hours, like you measure a car,
for the same watt hours you get more range
and more performance out of our battery
than you would of an equivalently sized battery
from another company.
Let's just do a quick rundown of the specs, right?
It's a hundred miles of range out of this battery.
Out of this battery, that's right,
this battery is about 800 watt hours a little over that
and it can take you up to a hundred miles of range.
Top speed of motor assist is 28 miles an hour,
but if you're really strong, you can pedal past that.
That's interesting, okay.
And then how much does the bike weigh?
This configuration of it weighs just about 80 pounds.
Okay.
But crucially, you can actually drop
a lot of weight off it very easily.
So this battery, you can feel it for me,
it's about 12 pounds.
And then the other thing we can do,
I'm gonna put the battery back in
to show you this one actually, is.
Can I charge like my phone,
like take that thing out here
and charge my phone?
You sure can.
It's actually a power bank.
It's USB-C.
Take it on the plane?
Yeah.
It's a little too big to take on the plane.
But yes, it's USB-C and there's actually USB-C up here.
I like that.
So you can both charge the bike with the battery in it
or while you're riding,
you can charge your phone here
and then plug in the phone, exactly.
Another way you can drop off some weight
is with this.
So also so innovative,
we invented a whole new bike part.
This is called the top frame.
Most bikes, in fact, every other bike on the market
has, there's no multiple frame parts.
There's one frame.
This piece is typically known as the seat tube.
This is known as the seat post.
These are usually welded in part of a frame, right?
What we realized is that one of the biggest barriers
to people getting an e-bike
is that they don't know what type of e-bike to buy.
There's so many out there on the market.
What's the right one for me?
I don't even really know how I'm gonna use this thing.
So how do I know which one I should buy?
Well, we've separated the sort of expensive decision
from that form and function decision.
So the parts of DreamRaw and the battery,
we were just talking about, they're all down here.
That is what's part of what we call our skateboard.
And that is the sort of expensive part of the decision.
How much is this weight?
This weighs another, almost 12 pounds as well.
Okay.
So you made your decision to buy the TMB,
but you're not exactly sure how you're gonna use it.
Well, that's great because these start at about $250.
And so you can buy a solo top frame here.
We have two other variations at launch.
One with a nice big rack on the rear end of it
called the utility top frame.
And another for a rider who's maybe a little more
moto oriented, is not as excited about pedaling,
wants to use our throttle.
And then that's called the bench top frame.
Got a good banana seat.
Exactly right.
That's what I want, yeah.
And then you can, you saw how easy it was
for me to take it off.
You can just drop it right on like a ski boot,
drop it in.
And I don't know if my mic picked that up
and you can hear a little motor running.
And now that top frame is so secure
I can pick up the whole bike.
All right.
You also saw I got some power back here.
This is a rear light.
Also features turn signals actually
I should show on this side.
Not yet, yep, yep.
And all these top frames have sense pins in them.
I'll show you that again.
That's how this just happened.
In addition to a sense pin,
you can see those down there.
Yep.
And in addition to sense pins,
there are pins that can serialize these top frames.
So just like you and your partner
might have two different keys to your Rivian
and your seat will auto adjust for you when you get in.
The seat won't quite auto adjust
but you'll leave the seat at the place that you want it.
And when you drop this on,
all of your settings will preload onto the key.
Oh, so it knows that's you.
Exactly, right?
Right, smart.
So if you have a ride mode you prefer
or something like that,
it'll automatically go into that.
Very cool.
Very cool.
Why don't we ride them
and then we'll come back and talk some more
with Saul here about everything else.
All right, so who goes first?
I think you've got the hat on.
All right, I'm gonna go first.
Let's go for a ride.
How do I go to 10?
All right, there we go.
Yeah, that's fast.
Ha!
Can you put my signal on here?
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love you.
I love your signal on here.
I like the fact that there's gears,
but I'm saying the putting in the haptic feedback,
I don't think you actually need that.
That's what I'm saying.
This handlebar is a little wide to me.
Are there different handlebars that up?
Got boosts.
All right, saving sound.
That was fun.
That was really fun.
Oh, great.
Yeah.
I went first, Johnny went second.
Yeah.
And what did you think?
It's a very clever piece of tech.
Like it really mimics,
it just feels like you're riding a bicycle,
but it's like anything but,
although it's exactly like.
It's really cool.
It's really cool.
What?
And easy.
It's super easy to ride.
We interviewed you for a second.
Yes, sir.
What's the context?
What's the context?
What's the context?
Yes, sir.
What is your, what's the context?
How many e-bikes have you ridden?
You own one?
I have one that's like more of a motorcycle
that doesn't have pedals.
That was the cake bike?
Yeah.
It doesn't have any pedals.
It's just a motorcycle.
But I've ridden e-bikes in there.
You know, they're.
Like what?
Name them?
Have you ridden them?
Like a Rad Power?
Sauron, I think it's pronounced.
Electric?
Yeah.
Have you ridden electric?
Oh, I don't, I don't, I honestly don't know.
So you've ridden a few other e-bikes.
With pedals.
Yeah.
Okay.
But there were, but again, like, it's always explained at the beginning, like they are,
the pedals are connected to the wheel.
Right.
And this wasn't, but it really felt like it was.
But then the coolest part, I thought of the whole thing was there was a, you know,
we're in Venice, you know, beach flap, there's a slight uphill.
And all of a sudden, like you're on uphill, but your cadence of pedaling doesn't change,
but your speed doesn't go down.
You know what I mean?
So that, that was really neat.
I thought that was really cool.
Yeah.
But again, you know, when he was explaining, you do this, you do this, and if pedal speed,
automatic gears, I was like, I'm just, what a nightmare.
Jump on it just works.
Yes.
Very easy.
I also agree.
And I haven't ridden as many, maybe I have.
I have.
I ride e-bikes like if I'm at like a racetrack and I'm like, I gotta get over there,
can I borrow whatever it is?
You know, so just jump and go.
I've ridden a Rad Power, I almost bought one.
I also tried to convert a bike to electric using, I think the company's called Switch,
and it had a front wheel hub motor and a battery, and it was terrible.
It was the worst.
It's like, I live in a very hilly part of the country.
I live in Redondo Beach and I got hills everywhere.
And this thing, because it had a, it had a pedal sensor and at one position.
So every time the sensor passed the, whatever the receiver,
it would give you a little pulse of energy.
And it was just like, it was like this.
And then of course, if you pick the front wheel up off the ground,
then you would just, it just would start going backwards.
So this was not that.
This was way more intuitive than wildly, it just felt like you're riding a normal bicycle.
Yeah.
Even you could backpedal at a stop.
You could even do, you could even do where you start pushing down on the pedal
and like get it up on one wheel.
It would do that, which is, you know.
I would say the eeriest thing though is how quickly it accelerates off the line.
Because that part is like, that is, I think my wife would be like,
whoa, that's fast.
But otherwise, seamless.
So is that the transcendent you were going for, Saul?
110%.
All that was music to my ears.
From the deep technology that we've invested in the TMB platform
to the experience that technology enables.
That's really what we care about.
I'm almost sorry for showing you too many ride modes to begin with
because what we really wanted you to do is to go ride and see what that felt like.
And real quick, I want to say, if we didn't adjust anything,
I could have run it just fine.
Didn't need to touch anything.
Yes, in auto mode.
So we tried the auto mode.
I switched to manual.
I went all the way to 10.
I took it.
I rode it to the top speed of 28 miles an hour in automatic mode.
And then I also went on the bike path and did it all the way to 20 miles an hour in manual mode.
Yeah, I did the same thing.
I think I did 28, 27, 28.
Very intuitive.
I was eye rolling inside when you said TMB stands for transcendent mobility bicycle.
I'm still eye rolling.
Yeah, I will forever.
It's fairly transcendent.
It's not transcendent.
It's really good.
But I will say the one piece of marketing gobbling that you said.
Well, you didn't let me finish with that.
It is actually kind of delicious.
Nobody really cares.
The one thing you said.
He said it delivered.
Give him some space for that.
The all purpose, like I have a friend of mine who drives my truck all the time.
He's always like putting in sport mode.
And I'm like, you don't need any modes.
Just leave it in all purpose.
And it really is perfect.
Oh, Mr. Radtuner over here says you don't need modes.
Well, no, Radtuner is different.
Yeah, yeah.
But so yeah, so I would just say that all purpose is totally fine for 99%.
It's really good.
I think that's right.
I think we say all purposes the best mode for most people most of the time.
But as we talked about on our ride, I'm someone who, even though I'm really in the space,
I still have some range anxiety.
So I'll ride my TMB probably most of the time on conserve mode or something like that.
So I make sure I have the range that I need to get where I'm going.
But when I'm running to work, I'll move it into sport mode.
And that way I make sure I beat the clock.
But is that you've got the range anxiety because you're going on longer rides?
Yeah, and that's just me personally.
That's nothing about like, it doesn't matter the EV that I drive, the E-Bikes that I ride.
I'm just that person where I want to stretch my range.
And what was your point?
So, well, let me go back to the question because while we had a very nice conversation
about some of the challenges in engineering this, the drive, the sort of pedal by wire feeling, right?
Because he brought up a really good point, which is this is happening right now as we speak.
Actually, I think we're already past it.
The uncanny valley in visuals in animation where I think you first saw the biggest
Polar Express, the Tom Hanks movie.
My friend did the CGI on that.
The CGI was like, very good.
And it was the uncanniness caused it to be creepy.
So can you explain again what you were saying about the pedaling sensation?
Absolutely, yeah.
So we think of it not just like animation, but like humanoid robots, right?
That's a big topic.
A lot of people are trying to make humanoid robots happen.
One of the big challenges there is we're sitting here having a conversation.
I sort of intuitively or instinctively kind of know what your eyelids moving look like and all that, right?
And if your eyelids don't move in the way that a human's eyelids move,
I'm going to notice it right away and realize I'm not talking to a human.
I'm talking to a robot.
Well, the same sort of thing can happen on a bicycle when you apply a pedal by wire system to it.
Which is to say that basically everybody on the planet almost has ridden a bicycle at one point in their lives.
And so we all have this kind of notion of how it should feel.
And when you ride a pedal by wire bike that doesn't feel like a traditional mechanical bicycle, you notice it.
Even if you haven't ridden a bike since you were a kid, you might not be able to describe exactly why it doesn't feel right,
but you'll know that it doesn't feel right.
And so we ran into that with the TMB and DreamRide trying to create this system that felt as natural as the bike you rode as a kid,
but also provided this sort of dream-like supernatural power.
And again, I noticed it within crossing the street to make that left 100 feet.
It just felt like a bicycle. It just really does feel like a bicycle.
Maybe like a heavy mountain bike is what it feels like, but very familiar.
How do you do that?
To your point, it's one thing to engineer similar sensations in throttle by wire or steering by wire and all the criticism,
but that is something that is programmed into people's heads maybe if they're early 16, 17 years old when they start driving.
But to your point, the bicycle is like a core memory from when you're like four or five years old
and that sensation and trying to stay up with the balance.
So what do you do?
Like you rode a bunch of other e-bikes and put like the sensors, the torque sensor and kind of get the feedback.
How does it work?
Yes, we did that and we did a lot of things.
So we definitely instrumented a lot of e-bikes out there as well as our own mules and prototypes and things like that
to figure out different things like braking forces, pedaling forces, acceleration, all of those different parameters.
We also did a lot of demoing both with seasoned riders and folks who hadn't ridden since they were a kid and gotten a lot of their feedback.
So my favorite example of a lesson we learned from that, you experienced and I think you really enjoyed a manual mode
which meant that we were simulating gears on the TMB.
Well when we first made that happen and did a demo of it, the gears shifted so smoothly
because they were only software defined that people didn't actually realize the gear had shifted.
That was how sort of uncanny it was.
So we were hitting this button to change gear and what a gear does was actually happening.
The ratio of the rotations per minute of their pedals compared to the rotations per minute of their rear wheel was changing.
But they couldn't perceive it because it didn't match the experience that they had as a kid
where you hit the gear and it might have taken a couple seconds or you heard this loud clunking noise or something like that.
And we had to actually, this is a strange example, we actually had to make the gear shifting a little bit worse than we could have.
We had to slow it down slightly and you both experienced that haptic feedback in our pedals.
We had to add that in to sort of send that trigger to your brain that oh, something's actually changed and I could feel that in the pedals.
Let me ask you this, so before you added that in and the fake gear slowed down and the feedback of the pedals,
did you enjoy riding it just as a pure EV for lack of a better term?
Yeah, so it's funny this is going back a little bit to my preferences but I ride the TMB almost exclusively in the auto transmission style
because I do, the way I primarily use the bike is as a vehicle to get around.
And in that scenario, while I am a seasoned cyclist, I don't care about picking what gear I'm in.
I don't need to be in the perfect...
That's what I said, there's really no need for it, it's clever.
Yeah, and so for me I ride in auto mode and not to make you roll your eyes too much,
but I like to get my transcendence on by letting the bike take care of this with me.
I just blinded myself.
By letting the bike take care of it for me instead of me having to stay in the moment to that level of trying to figure out what gear I should be in.
Okay, so we can wax poetic and be super positive.
I want to ask you something, I went onto the reddit thread and I heard, I was kind of mooching around here.
I will say, I think the riding experience, the pedaling, the acceleration, the range.
I don't see 100 miles, it sounds like a lot of range for a vehicle like this.
And real quick, you're saying if you didn't pedal, if you just use the thumb throttle, you could do about 30 miles on a flat ground?
Yeah, yeah.
That's good too.
Okay.
100 miles, I want to be totally straight up.
100 miles, you can get 100 miles out of the bike, absolutely.
It won't be helping you that much if you're getting 100 miles of range, right?
If you want to go all the way up to our assist of 10, then you're looking closer to the 30 miles.
But again, if you really want to stretch it like I do and you're willing to put in some sweat equity, you can get it 100 or maybe more.
What's the, and what assist level would that be?
That would be at like one or two.
Okay.
Interesting.
I should try that out.
Reddit thread.
How long does it take to charge a battery?
No more than about four hours.
We have two different battery sizes, so the larger battery takes a little under four hours to go from 0 to 100.
And they both fit in that same.
What's the difference in the battery?
We have our large pack, which is about 800 watt hours, a little over.
And our standard pack, which is about 540 watt hours.
How many cells difference?
You know, I should know that one off the top of my head.
Did you say that 800 is 40 cells?
It's about 44, I believe.
32.
Yeah, it's going to say about a 12 cell difference.
Okay.
So what was Reddit?
So, okay.
So one of the things that Reddit was like, oh, here comes these tech bros trying to show up cycling and everything on the bike is proprietary.
You know, this, what do you call this?
The seat bus thing.
This we call the top frame.
The top frame.
Oh, pass me the banana seat.
Yeah.
So you put the top frame and it's just like, it's got its own connector.
So that's one.
And then, and I'm using my universal voice for criticism of the internet.
It's accurate.
Also, you know, what happens when this thing, it's coming to God's business and you have a $4,500, which you can speak to.
Yeah.
Which we'll talk about.
You just have a bike that you can't get serviced anywhere.
Right.
Or is it going to be one of these softwares of service providers?
Are they going to charge you per gear?
Or, you know, like, oh, it's 10 speeds now.
If you want two additional speeds, they're going to charge you 100 bucks a month or something.
Probably.
So address the haters.
Like, I also looked you up.
You have a long experience in the analog bicycling industry, right?
And bikes are with some accessory exceptions.
They're generally open source.
Like everyone's using, I mean, Allen wrench bolts for seat posts and the same kind of quick releases for wheels and chains and wheels are more or less.
Although, I guess, lately in the last 20 years, there's been a proliferation of wheel sizes, like 29 inch mountain bikes.
And I think it used to be everything was like 26 inch and everything's like, you can ride whatever kind of wheel you want, more or less.
But speak to this, like, here comes this Silicon Valley startup trying to disrupt my childhood dreams.
Well, I don't think we're trying to disrupt anybody's dreams.
In fact, we're trying to help make your dreams come true by making the bike that you could have only dreamed of to begin with.
But to address it directly, what I'll say is that the things that we've decided that we can really impact in a meaningful way, and what other people might call proprietary,
are the things that we know are the most ripe for innovation and need the biggest changes when it comes to the bike.
But we also believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
So, you mentioned tires, for example. Tires, I think for most people, are the thing that most commonly fails on their bike, right?
They get a flat tire, that happens.
We very deliberately expect tires in a size that are very easily replaceable.
So we will carry a lot of stock of them, you'll be able to get replacements from us, but you won't have to get replacements from us.
You could go into any bike store, they don't even have to have any relationship to also,
and buy a different tire off the shelf and they can replace the tire on your wheel,
or if you know how to do it yourself, you can do that as well.
Same goes for brake pads and those different consumables.
We do use an Allen wrench to adjust our seat post height, and that seat post and the saddle, right?
If that doesn't fit you right or you want a wider saddle or a narrower saddle,
you can swap all that out. Those are all standard bike interfaces.
I'm just trying to understand all of it yet, but this to me is really because on that cake bike I have,
it's set up right now where there's a second seat on the back.
And then when you want to start adding the different baskets and carry things,
it's a lot of pulling things and doesn't go on right.
It takes a long time.
If you have a basket, the top part of it,
the actual basket or rack was attached to the post so you just hot-swap it on.
And then you said you're launching with three, but I imagine A, the aftermarket will get a hold of it.
B, you'll probably come out with more.
Are you going to let other manufacturers make top frames?
To start with, the answer is definitely no.
Largely because there's that very strong mechanical connection to the rest of the bike.
No, but I meant the basket part. Somebody will come up with stuff.
Oh, definitely. To put on top.
But no, this is like two seconds versus like I did once,
I had to take the seat off and then put on the other things.
And later on, Murphy's Law, I was like, oh, that'll take 10 minutes.
It took like two hours and I had to find a thing that wasn't there.
This is just one piece snapping on and off.
I saw that and was like, oh, that's for this one.
I'm so glad you think so.
I mean, that was a big sort of pain point that we wanted to solve for people.
And you see it in sort of all over the biking spectrum.
Someone who's more experienced, they already have a bike.
They run into these challenges of saying, oh, I want to change what's going on
just like you described.
On the other end of the spectrum, someone who is maybe interested in getting a bike,
but they haven't ridden one since they were a kid,
the first thing they ask is what the heck bike should I buy?
There's so many out there and I don't know.
What's the price point of a different saddle?
They start at about 250 bucks.
That would be this one right here, the solo top frame.
And they go up from there when you add some more capability to them.
That's the other thing that I'm so grappling with.
When I was a kid, the best bike in the world was 300 bucks, the whole bike.
Oh, we'll get to cost.
I want to talk about that.
Okay, I like the top frame idea.
How much for the rack?
Approximately.
Approximately, it's called 450 bucks, but don't quote me exactly on that.
I just don't remember the price off top of my head.
Approximately, yeah.
So I hear you on trying to make the stuff that needs help better.
Let's talk about the proprietary battery.
Will that be forever proprietary or do you think you'd open it up
so other people could use this pretty slick, swappable battery pack?
Because it's a thing in Taiwan.
I know they actually have a scooter startup that uses
and you can go, it's like swapping your propane tank at a gas station.
They have a rack of these things on a charger and you have an account.
You bring in yours, you scan it, you pull the other one out,
put the other one in that one's charges, you get a full battery
and then you throw it in there.
Do you foresee a future where the battery is something that other manufacturer,
e-bike manufacturers could use?
Never say never.
I think right now what we're really focused on is delivering great products,
complete vehicle products that people can experience themselves.
At the moment, we're not interested in being a supplier to the rest of the
micro-mobility industry, largely just because there's this big gap
in that micro-mobility space right now where we need more vehicles like the TMB.
So once we've done some work to fill that gap,
we can consider some things like you're asking about.
Okay, and then we talked a little bit about the handlebars.
They are a little wide for me.
You said that this is the standard, but there's a sport version that's a little lower,
but the width is always going to be...
To start with, the widths of the two bars are the same.
There's the standard kind of high-rise bar and the sport kind of lower-rise bar,
but we'd love to hear from our readers.
Would you sign wide? Just wide?
Just me, just by my hand position, like a little bit, maybe a little narrow.
Too comfy, huh?
I don't know if you saw me on Reddit when you looked through the Reddit forums,
but we are on there asking folks for what they want to see,
and I think at this point, just because we've only done a limited amount of demos,
we have gotten so much feedback yet about the handlebars,
but we are definitely listening and we're excited to hear what people think of them,
and if we need narrower ones, we'll definitely look into that.
That's like the key to Rivian updates too, right?
It's complain on Reddit.
Now I know who to complain to, but yeah, yeah.
What about a question?
This is sort of like hospital bed off gray.
What about color?
I love that question.
Color is coming. Stay tuned to our website in the coming weeks and months.
It's got like a medical equipment kind of color vibe.
Strangely, I like it.
That's a doctor, yeah.
One thing I want to come back to you on.
Again, a lot of proprietary stuff on here, your startup,
is there any kind of subscription that goes along with buying the vehicle
that you have to pay additionally after?
I think the launch edition is like $4,500, but there's a $3,500 version of this.
Is there any other additional costs?
Yeah, and like Rivian, when I bought it, there was no subscription,
and then they introduced one a year ago, like Kinect Plus or whatever it's called,
and it's actually pretty good value for money,
but it's still paying after I paid off the truck.
It's a yearly fee.
So we are going to offer a subscription, somewhat similar to Rivian.
No fees will be charged for at least the first year of the existence of the TMB.
And again, similar to Rivian, the subscription is not required to ride the bike.
We will not be offering gears as a subscription or something like that,
like you asked about earlier.
That subscriptions mean also, I shouldn't say the primary, there's kind of two areas.
The first and foremost area is data connection.
So the example I usually give here are anti-theft features.
The bike has both a 4G LTE data connection and a Wi-Fi chip.
So if you're at home and your bike is connected to your Wi-Fi network,
you'll get all the anti-theft features at home because that's your data connection, etc.
But if you're at the coffee shop and you lock up
and you don't have the coffee shop's Wi-Fi password saved on your bike,
then you would need our subscription in order to receive an anti-theft alert
or something kind of out in the wild.
That's the main use case for our subscription.
The other piece of our subscriptions are sort of like ongoing data crunching.
So you can imagine a world in which we're analyzing your rides day after day
and making suggestions for new routes or something like that.
If there's sort of like ongoing work that we're providing value to you for,
we'll put it in a subscription.
If not, then we don't feel like it's warranted.
Got it.
I want to ask a couple of follow-up questions about that,
but let's first talk about this security angle because we didn't talk about it.
So right now, we did the rides. It was super cool. It was easy.
But if I were to own one of these things, I would have the also app on my phone
and there's an NFC. What's the sensor?
You mean between the phone and the bike?
The phone and the bike, yes.
The Bluetooth key, essentially, knows that I'm nearby.
It's me. I validate it. I can go ride it.
Correct.
And then I pull up to the coffee shop and I don't have to lock it theoretically.
I can walk out and go inside because if some jackass tries to steal the bike,
what happens? The pedals either freewheel or they don't move at all.
There are several things that happen.
So first and foremost, when you walk away from the bike,
everything, you know, lights go off, everything shuts down,
and the rear wheel actually gets locked in place through our dream ride system.
So if you just try to, like, roll the bike away, you can't do it.
Another thing that happens is, and this is true anytime, you're actually not in ride mode.
So this is, you don't even have to lock the bike for this to happen.
But when you're not in ride mode or the bike is locked,
the pedals will not activate the rear wheel.
So not only can the rear wheel not free spin, freewheel,
but you can't overpower it and make it spin
thanks to that pedal by wire system.
Because there's no mechanical connection,
you can't actually make the pedals propel the bike
unless it's giving you permission to do so.
That's what will happen when you kind of lock it and walk away.
It'll also get armed just like a car would get armed with an alarm.
So then if a thief comes up,
first thing that'll happen is the accelerometers on the bike
will detect that it's being messed with.
And this, I'm going through kind of the whole set of things here.
You can customize this.
But first thing that'll happen is you'll get a notification that says,
hey, your bike's getting jostled or whatever.
Then if it keeps happening or if it actually starts to move away,
you'll get a stronger notification
that says your bike is actively being stolen.
Watch out.
Meanwhile, the thief will be getting hit with basically an alarm
that's the volume of a car alarm.
Lights will be flashing.
There'll be a thing on the display that says you're being tracked.
Watch out.
And if all that fails and the thief is kind of puts it in a van
to drive off or something like that,
you can brick your bike just like you could brick your iPhone,
which means that there's not really anything the thief can do with it
at that point because they can't even sell it for parts.
Like they couldn't sell the top frame
because you try to put that top frame on another bike
and it won't work.
The best that they could possibly do is like melt it down
for metal or copper or whatever.
Take the wheels.
Take the wheels.
Yeah.
And that's, you know, kind of.
They're part of owning a bike.
Yeah.
Is the battery steel?
Oh, thank you for asking.
The battery also has a lock in it.
So what you experienced earlier was our latch,
which is just what kind of secures it into the bike.
There's also an electronic locking pin
that when you walk away from the bike comes down
and actually locks that battery into place.
So you can rotate that, but you can't take it out.
The camp speaker in the Rivian has a locking pin.
Yeah.
But, you know, how soon before there's a Reddit thread
about kids using flippers,
flipper zeros to, you know, unlock and steal TMB bikes
like they're stealing on days, right?
Like, do you, is there any fears of, you know,
I think the Luddites and the bicycle industry,
I think probably leads all hobbies
in having like home retro grouches, right?
Like people who are like, give me,
don't give me any of this stuff.
I want to fix it.
Yes.
Yeah, I don't want any gears.
No brakes, fix it.
Well, the good news for those people is that
they can still use a bike lock if they want.
Nothing's stopping them from using a traditional bike lock
and locking the bike up to something.
That's totally cool.
But to your earlier point, they don't need to do that.
They can use R2.
And to your, I'll answer your question directly,
which is to say that we do have some concerns
about theft generally.
That is what led us to a very robust and secure system.
And in addition to that, our bike is,
I mentioned before, it has a 4G LTE connection.
It is not only software defined,
but it is updatable over the air,
again, just like Euribian.
And so in the unlikely event that we find
that there's some kind of bug in the security,
we can patch it very easily and send that update to the bike.
So it's got a little screen on top,
and we talked a little bit about,
right now, because it's not connected to my phone
and it's early days, it's got a compass for navigation,
but eventually there will be maps.
Yes.
Maps and turn-by-turn directions.
Map, turn-by-turn direction.
With audio?
Like turn here?
Or no?
Yes, if you connect to an audio device.
Yeah, yeah.
So all of that is driven off the phone as well.
So there is a GPS in the bike,
which is how you get your compass.
But in terms of sending the turn-by-turn directions
and things like that, that's happening through the phone.
Air pods.
You can have air pods,
or you could use our Alpha Wave helmet,
which has actually speakers and a microphone built into it.
So there's no, you would never,
it would not be shouting directions while you're riding.
That's correct, that's correct.
And I want to be super clear,
it's because you asked earlier,
you don't need the subscription to do navigation either.
That's happening from the phone.
Oh really?
Yeah, that's going over the Bluetooth on your phone.
So you do need, you know,
your phone needs to have data,
but as long as you have that, you're good.
The subscription would be to have the enhanced security,
the alerts sent to you
if your bike was being thrown in the back of a U-Haul.
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, can you play, I don't know,
everything you would play is on your phone.
So if you wanted to Spotify,
you don't have to connect to the bike.
Correct, yeah, it's all through the phone.
You can control the media through our media pad.
So on the left side of the handlebar,
there's a way to control the volume and like a play pause,
you know, next track type of headphone control,
but on the handlebars.
You can also use the touch screen to change the media.
What about fitness freaks
who want to know their heart rate,
calories burned,
how they're doing on their Strava.
We are compatible with all of that.
So you will be able to hook up a heart rate monitor to the bike
and can kind of match your heart rate data
with the rest of the GPS data
and everything coming from the bike.
You can also, through the also app,
export a ride to a Strava or Garmin
or whatever thing you'd like to use.
You can export that and track all your data.
What?
And I hate to ask you this
because it means bad news,
you had a situation where we had this guy, Eric?
Yeah.
Eric Asmussen?
Asmussen.
No.
I'll look it up, but you go ahead.
Founder, buddy of cake bikes.
Yeah.
Which is not bikes, sorry, e-motorcycle, whatever.
Yeah, they had bikes too.
Is it still rideable?
Yeah, it's fine.
Works great.
Okay.
Their company went under
and you got to keep one of their bikes
because you had it on loan.
Yeah, I was like, what do I do with these?
It's not going back to Sweden.
I'll tell you that much.
So is there anything on here
that runs the risk of being in...
I can't ride it anymore
because something happened,
like with the company or you guys...
It also goes away.
Or you change directions and you say,
we're just going to make the quad now.
We're not going to support this vehicle.
Can you still ride it theoretically?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, that's part of our strategy
in terms of not requiring the subscription
or any of that sort of thing.
So it's its own thing.
It doesn't need to be updated.
That's correct.
You'd like to be able to be.
That is all correct.
And I sort of suggest that
the way that we're going about building this vehicle
is much more similar to, say,
a Rivian or perhaps even a Tesla
or something like that,
which is to say that...
I don't know about you,
but when I talk to Rivian owners,
I don't get this question.
People don't ask me,
like, what's going to happen
if Rivian goes out of business?
No, why would it?
They make great products.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's that?
Everyone says that.
It's such a boring question.
It's a good question
because from Fisker Ocean...
Yeah, but again, like...
My mother-in-law gave me this thing.
It's called Cardio with a Q,
and it was this cool,
software-defined blood pressure monitor.
Look, companies go out of business,
but...
Yeah, but now I have $100...
But really good products
tend not to go.
Okay, alright.
Just saying.
Things happen.
Okay, you said it, not me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No.
I do want to ask,
this is the hardest,
worst question I will ask you today.
This is Ed's new thing.
It's like being a guest.
I'm not bruised yet.
I'm not bruised yet.
You can keep trying.
You remember...
Were you in Silicon Valley in 2017
when the Juicero launched?
Yes.
Okay.
So you remember the Juicero?
You remember this.
This is the most ridiculous thing.
Tech Bros had said,
we're going to make this
fresh-squeezed juice product.
And it was basically juice in a bag,
and they were selling you a $400 machine
that would squeeze the juice
out of the bag into the cup.
All right.
And that was supposed to be the healthy...
Sounds like Silicon Valley.
Go ahead.
Yes.
So, again, you have this,
and I want to talk about that
after we get through the product piece of this.
You have this biking background
where you worked at Specialized,
you ran, it looks like you ran like a city,
some kind of biking program.
Oh, chain of bike stores, actually.
Chain of bike stores.
Yeah.
So you get kids,
and this is all pre-e-bike era, right?
So you're...
It started pre-e-bike, yeah.
You were fully invested in human-powered,
like, it's a sweet product,
but, like,
does this...
We're going to replace people riding bicycles
100% with their own...
under their own power.
Like, what's the overall benefit to humanity?
Great questions, both of you.
I'd say...
Unlike our podcast,
I'm saving the world right now.
I'll start by saying that
our goal is not to displace
what I call analog bike trips or bike products.
I do believe, as a bike guy,
that, like, there will always be a place for analog bikes,
just like there's always a place
for a manual transmission car or something like that.
Sure.
Right?
So I think that'll always happen,
and I personally,
and also as a company,
has no goals of trying to disrupt that.
What our goal is to help people
view the bicycle not as a,
you know, expensive toy
or a, you know, means solely for exercise or sport,
but actually as a vehicle.
That's what we want.
And so, look,
I want to welcome people who are on analog bikes today
to try the TMB, I hope,
and frankly think that they're going to love it,
and we'll see a place for it in their lives.
But we're actually even more interested
in the people who are maybe already
listening to your podcast
and are driving cars today
or using public transit
or not thinking of the bicycle
as a way to move around
to get some transcendent mobility
and that they can,
now they can consider it that.
And so that is really our goal here.
And like I said,
it's not to displace the analog bike.
It's to sort of address the challenges
with the analog bike
that are preventing the people I just talked about
from considering it a vehicle.
Whereas this,
you can look at it
and you all have experienced it.
I hope it rings true
that it feels sort of like EV grade bicycle.
Yeah.
We're reviving grade, really.
I mean it had that thing.
My question is,
Ed and I are both men of a certain age,
50, and you know,
when you fall off bikes at this age,
like it sucks,
tell them about your quad.
Because I love four wheel,
I grew up,
we used to go to Newport Beach every summer
and you could rent these quad bikes,
my buddy David and I,
everyone else went to the Boogie Board,
we rode the quad bikes,
terrorizing Newport Beach,
it was super fun.
I love a quad bike.
For those of you listening at home,
bookmark this thought,
go back and do a Google search
for also quad e-bike
and you will see a very slick looking four wheel.
And if you're editing this video,
throw it under.
Drop a picture of it.
Yeah, but please.
TMQ.
TMQ, that's right,
the Transcendant Mobility Quad
inside of the bike.
More favorite branding for you.
We are super excited
about the Transcendant Mobility Quad.
I think the place that it's starting
is in collaboration actually with Amazon.
Because Amazon is sort of at the forefront globally
but especially in this country
of considering alternative form factors
for logistics.
And is this a bit,
if I may real quick interrupt you,
like hub and spoke deliveries,
in other words a big Rivian van goes out
with all the packages for a neighborhood
and then you have three of these little quad
or five or ten or whatever
and they run around with packages
and go up narrow streets.
Essentially, you nailed it.
That was what cake was trying to do
with the bike I got.
That was their whole plan,
was a delivery bike.
Yeah.
Like last mile stuff.
That's right, that's right.
Okay.
And so yeah,
so that's where the TMQ kind of starts.
And in having those conversations with Amazon,
we sort of realized one,
there's a very broad market here
for the commercial version of that TMQ.
Yeah.
And then as we started talking about it inside the building,
a lot of people kept saying,
well dang, I want to get one of those,
put my kids in the back.
Or I want to use that to go to their coffee shop.
My neighborhood,
people are building these.
They're making like homemade,
I guess they're taking the e-bikes apart
and making little wooden buggies
to take the kids to school.
There's a bunch of people that have them.
They're running everywhere.
Absolutely.
And so I think that phenomenon you're talking about
is a testament to this gap
I spoke about a few minutes ago.
There's this gap in form factors in this space.
Technology has enabled us to explore form factors
that previously have not,
they haven't worked out from an engineering perspective
or there hasn't been enough market demand there.
You had to have a gas engine.
You had to have radiator and all this big, bulky stuff.
Had to be a car,
because when I inherited this cake bike
from the dead company,
but like big basket on the front,
two bags of groceries
or I can get like a month or two of pet food
or we'll get lunch or whatever.
That was still two wheels.
It's still those two wheels,
but the point is like for running around the neighborhood,
because it's LA,
I live on top of a dead end hill,
but everything is a mile away,
at least and I don't want to walk
and I'm too lazy to walk,
but like,
but I didn't need to take a car for the first time.
You know what I mean?
And like, okay, could I have taken my bike?
Yeah, but I've,
it's a 14% incline up then.
Back home.
You know, eighth of a mile sucks.
I'm 50.
So yeah, I was like,
these neighborhood electric vehicles,
NEVs are like a cool thing,
but a quad.
TMQ, same drivetrain?
Essentially, yes.
Because of the Amazon use case, right?
It can carry a lot more weight than this can,
but all the key aspects of DreamRide
are still there as sort of ingredients,
but it needs a little bit more power.
Bigger power.
Yes.
How many passengers?
TBD on the passenger.
Well, there you go.
So we're focused first
on the partnership with Amazon.
Okay.
And then you saw,
we debuted some of our concept quads
in the consumer space
and if I count the kids correctly
in the back there,
I believe there were four kids in the back
when Kelly drove out on stage.
But, you know, that's still in concept.
Sure.
You've had six small kids back there.
Sure.
I'm looking, it's got two,
it's got two bench seats.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's it.
That's what I want.
This is the rickshaw
that you would see on Bourbon Street
or even Venice.
But that's it.
Do you pedal the drunk people home?
Because we had a neighbor kid
across the street
they go to the same school.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Well, let's talk about that real quick
because, okay, so great.
So, the spin-off from Rivian also,
if you want, we'll do the plug,
ridealso.com, right?
Go check out the products.
Let's go.
Yeah.
And all the social media is right also.
Got a lot of cool,
automotive grade features, right?
Software defined.
He said it, not us for once.
So, the actual guests
that software in my vehicle,
which is amazing.
But, why is there no airbag
on this thing?
Talk to me about safety.
I'd love to.
I live in Redondo Beach,
we're near Hermosa Beach,
Manhattan Beach.
There's a huge uproar right now
because sometimes there's some thug.
They've got thug kids on their e-bikes.
These are all high school kids
and they're ripping around on
what's the one with the banana seat.
Super 73s.
They're riding daddy's round power.
I cringe because a lot of times these kids
are, the girls are in shorts
and flip-flops
and they're maybe wearing a helmet.
If they are, it's usually unbuckled.
The guys are riding a dude
on the handlebars,
a guy off the back.
We're doing a wheelie.
Nobody has lights on
and it's at night time
and these things are going 30, 28,
whatever, miles an hour.
And there's been some terrible accidents
and there was a big lawsuit
against Rad Power,
which was one of the leaders.
I think they knew about our business.
Okay, but how can they sue?
What are they selling for?
Liability.
Like, well, I think it's from
Grumdorf.
Look, yesterday...
How come there are no...
Where's the airbag on the seat?
I guess it's a question.
What's the safety story
is what I'm hearing.
Yes.
So, let me start by saying
that the TMB is a Class 3
electric bicycle,
which means that in most states,
including the one we're in right now,
it needs to be...
It can only be ridden by someone
aged 16 and older.
Okay.
And they do need to wear a helmet.
That's the state law
regarding a Class 3 bike.
Now, in terms of the product safety,
we've done quite a few different things
on the bike.
First and foremost,
I'm going to come back
to the dream ride actually,
which is what's the most likely
sort of dangerous situation
you get in when you're using a bike
for transportation.
It's an interaction with the car.
So, the first thing we did is
with dream ride,
we actually made this motor
capable of accelerating the TMB
with a rider on it
at 0.3 Gs.
That may be in something to you
and may or may not mean
something to your audience.
What we did was
measure cars
during rush hour,
headed into our town of Palo Alto
where our office is,
and notice that people
who were maybe running
a little late to work
were accelerating
from a red light
when it turned green
at about 0.3 Gs.
And so we said,
to help people be
sort of riding with traffic,
rather than riding in traffic,
we need to provide
that same capability.
So, while we have that 28-mile-an-hour
motor-assisted top speed
of a Class 3 e-bike,
we can get to it faster
than most bikes on the market.
And that is sort of the first line
of defense, if you will,
in being safe.
Next up,
maybe not next,
these are not in any
particular order,
we have featured
what's a concept
known as biomotion lighting.
So this is when you're riding
at night, right?
Our lights,
specifically the rear lights
on all three of our top frames
have some LEDs
at the end,
I'll kind of show you,
it's like the last couple
LEDs here.
It's not on right now,
of course,
but the last couple
LEDs there
are actually firing down
instead of out.
And what they're doing
is they're actually illuminating
basically like your knee,
shin, calf area.
And what that does
is it illuminates
the pedaling motion
that you're making
when you ride down the road.
People see you're a bike.
Well exactly,
so there's data out there
that shows that
when a brain
recognizes a red light
in front of you,
that's all you recognize,
you recognize a red light.
But when you recognize,
it goes back to
almost to that
uncanny valley thing
we were talking about,
when you recognize biomotion,
motion that is unique
to a human being,
it triggers your brain
that that's not just a light,
that's a human,
and I need to
be more careful.
As you're careful.
And so all three
of our top frames
have that built into it.
So you can,
so if we were riding at night,
you would see again,
like from your knee down,
give or take,
will be illuminated
as you're pedaling.
And so it helps
send that signal.
Plus the fact that
you have lights on the bike
built in.
Yes, so that was,
another thing I was going to say
is that the bikes,
the bikes,
lights are built in.
They come on automatically
when you go into ride.
Our ring light.
Yeah.
The front light is
about 1500 lumens,
which is damn near equivalent
to a single car headlight.
And the rear light
is about 200 lumens,
which is not quite as bright
as a car tail light,
but it is plenty bright
for...
And they come on automatically?
They come on automatically.
Can you turn them off?
You can turn them off,
but...
Creeper mode?
Yeah, there's
sort of a stealth mode,
if you will.
We also have turn signals
on the bike,
so you can let people know
when you're turning.
The lights are a very important
aspect of it.
We didn't talk about
braking.
That was a tool
in your pocket.
We weren't talking,
we didn't talk at all about braking.
Braking is regenerative.
It is both regenerative
and mechanical hydraulic brakes.
Yeah.
So, dream ride
has regenerative braking
built into it.
The belt
that connects the rear wheel
to dream ride
is,
you joked earlier
about fixies.
It's almost like a fixed gear,
which means that
even when the wheel
is spinning forward
and you're not putting energy
into it,
you're able to recapture energy
using that front pulley.
And so,
when you pull your brake levers
on the TMB,
all hydraulic brakes
on bikes
have what's known as a deadband.
I mean, this happens on a lot of brakes.
Where the first part
of the travel of the lever,
you're not actually compressing
any pads.
Yeah, you're moving the wire.
Yeah.
So, in that deadband,
the regen braking
actually starts to apply
on the TMB.
And then it seamlessly
transitions into that foundation.
I like that.
I noticed that.
I noticed that it was
actually stopping immediately
and it was like,
oh, that's,
and I figured it was probably a regen,
but that's...
Is there a,
I think if you recall from the physics,
75% of the braking
force is done on the front wheel.
Yes.
So, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
So, it's not quite that high,
but it's in that ballpark.
One of the,
the sort of
things that inspired
some of the decisions we made
on this bike
is a program that I participated in
actually with the San Francisco
Bicycle Coalition.
I'm what's called
a league cycling instructor,
which means it's sort of like being
certified by AAA to teach
Driver's Ed.
You're certified by
the League of American Bicyclists
to teach Bikers Ed.
And so,
I teach a lot of these classes
on the weekends
in San Francisco.
And one of the things
that I often encounter
is riders who
are totally freaked out
as to which brake is which
because they're very concerned
about going over the handlebars
and they grab too much brake.
These are adults and kids, both.
Adults too, yeah.
We can talk more about that
if you want.
No, I'm not concerned about that.
So, they're very
freaked out as to,
they don't want to go over the
handlebars,
and they get into the situation
where they have to suddenly
pull their brakes,
but their brain is thinking,
oh crap, which one do I pull?
I don't know,
and they get freaked out.
Me witnessing that over and over again
helps inspire the notion
that the regen braking
actually applies regardless
of what brake lever you pull.
So, even though it's only happening
on the rear wheel,
because it's connected to dream ride,
it activates when you pull
the front brake lever.
Interesting.
But I like that a lot
because I was noticing that
and it was just like,
I don't know why,
whenever I ride bikes,
I just,
I'll just vary it up.
But there's no,
there's no energy capture
on the front wheel happening?
There's no energy capture
on the front wheel.
There is a speed,
there's a speed sensor
that's happening there
so that we can do things
like traction control
on the rear wheel.
But no, there is no
energy capture on the front wheel.
Feels like a missed opportunity.
Is it not?
Given that so much...
It would be a very
tough and interesting
problem to solve
is what I would say
because the amount of energy...
Yeah, basically,
the reason we can capture
so much energy
with dream ride
is the gear reduction
from the rear wheel
to that pulley.
There's a product out on the market
known as a dynamo hub.
It's a hub with a little generator
built into it.
But the amount of energy
that just the spinning
of a wheel can generate
is enough to power,
most dynamos are used
to power like a front light
on a bike or something like that.
It's enough to do that,
but it's not really enough
to meaningfully...
That's the one where
literally there's a wheel
that touches your spinning tire.
There's a version of a dynamo
that's like that?
Yeah.
There are also ones now
that are built right into them.
But they still don't produce
a meaningful amount more energy.
Okay.
All right.
But still the...
I have a small child
and I'm fearful
of when they're going to be
on a bike
doing 28 miles an hour
and they know
they're going to have a helmet on.
But what about...
It's the vehicle, the car,
because this happened
right in front of my kid's school
and it's the classic
guys making a left turn
into the driveway
and this kid on an e-bike
was ripping way too fast
and of course
the guy didn't see you
or whatever
and makes a turn
and the kid goes broadside
or the other one
which is a left turn
this is the motorcycle's
biggest fear, right?
Unprotected left
the guy turns in front
and somebody hits.
Any collision mitigation?
First of all, I will say
I appreciate you saying
because this is something
that my dad used to tell me
that no one talks about
which is
vehicles that accelerate well
that's a safety function.
People usually know that
they want fast cars
because they're getting
on the freeway
but everybody who
criticizes motor traffic
for covering 0 to 62 much
it's like hey
it's also
somewhat of a safety aspect.
I just get a life of losers
but go ahead.
Anyways, so tell me
about collision mitigation
or is there anything
in the frame?
What's the safety aspect?
Another safety aspect
of course
is our full suspension
where when you're going
28 miles an hour
you can't be hitting a bump
that's going to toss you
off the bike
or something like that.
The other thing
for the scenario
that you were just
describing is that
we are offering
though in most states
the minimum age
is 16 years old
we are offering
a child limit feature
where you will be able
using the onboard data
and GPS connections
to sort of geofence the bike
and there's different flavors
of this right
you can make it so
the bike shuts down
if they ride out
of the radius
you've allowed
more likely
I think parents will probably
ask to get a notification
or something
if their child
rides out of it
but you can also set
a lower speed limit
so because everything's
software defined
you can't set it higher
than 28
but you can certainly set it lower
so if you're going to
give it to your kid
you could set it
at a class 2 speed
or something
like a 20 mile an hour
I would also just like
to make the point though
that A
I don't want to talk about kids
but there's an assumption
of risk
when you're on a 2-liter
you know
what's that quote
like if the bicycle
was invented today
it would be illegal
you know
so like
if motorcycles are legal
you can have bicycles
well
except that
it's well known
that a lot of
a lot of folks
are buying these
electric motorcycles
on Amazon
and if you snip one wire
sure
that 28 mile an hour speed limit
just jumped to 50
yeah sure
sure sure
our sales guy
was doing that with his kid
and they were doing it around
so
I mean
you know
there's some aspect
of personal responsibility
I don't think it should
all be on the
I don't know what you're talking about
this is America
that's what I'm saying
okay
so this is
this is great
this is super
I keep looking at it
for more questions
and it just looks
pretty good
it looks good
I like it
I like to step through
I like how it rides
I want to go back to how it rides
really
I'm not going to say
transcendent
but it's really good
I'm going to
I'm going to get you
to say
no
I want to speak to that
briefly which is to say
one of the reasons
it rides so well
and I think
you gave a nod
to some of the reddit
comments
and you said earlier
it kind of feels like
a heavy mountain bike
yeah 80 pound
it's heavy but it's not crazy
yeah exactly
so
there are a couple things
I want to say about that
first and foremost in terms of
how it rides
we did something very
interesting which is
put both the motor
and the battery
very low on the bike
other people have
figured out
the motor part of that
before
but no one else had
done the battery
down this low
and it creates
a sort of iconic
profile shape
of the bike
sort of square in the middle
but it doesn't just look cool
what it does
is keeps the center of gravity
super low
and so that's why
if you tried to lift
the bike up
it would feel like
it weighed 80 pounds
but when you ride it
those 80 pounds
kind of melt away
and then of course
the other way that
they melt away
is when you can pull
the top frame
and the battery out
and drop
about 25 pounds
off the bike
and I think that's
really important
because especially
for your readers
but in general
in this country
do it in
primarily one scenario
which is putting it
onto a car wreck
most other
times for most riders
they are keeping
both wheels on the ground
and wheeling it
something like that
in that scenario
where you need to put it
on a car wreck
you can pull those
25-ish pounds off
and then you have
a you know
55-pound bike
that you just have
to lift
two feet in the air
and I can also see
if you're like
throwing the back
of a pickup truck
or something like that
like you know take 25
pounds off
I can give you a question
Yeah, okay
Will there be a two-wheel drive
version
will you ever put a motor
in the front?
I have seen
It's an interesting idea
I tried to buy
I tried to buy
a mechanical two-wheel drive
there was one that used to sell
You were talking about that
Yeah
It had a
flexible cable
that ran to the front
To the front wheel
It was wild
but you could do it now
with electric motors
up front
In theory we definitely could
That's right
You know I think it's funny
just this past week
we've been doing some
winter testing over
in like Tahoe
because that's near to us
and maybe that will inspire
some more thoughts like this
Perfect
My next question was
what's the performance
degradation in cold weather
because we know famously
electric cars
get brutalized
in cold weather
the range goes down
considerably
especially if you're driving
fast in cold weather
So is there a similar
range degradation
if you're riding this
in winter
There will be some
range degradation
if you're riding it
in sub-freezing temperatures
at the top end
it should be around
20% range degradation
which I mean I would tell you
even though I'm the guy
with range anxiety
but even on an EV
I just actually was in Tahoe
the last few days
it wasn't quite that cold
but I did lose some range
but it wasn't enough
that actually made me
stop any more than I would have
and on the bike
you know 20% of
let's say it's called
a 50 mile range
because I like to use
higher assist levels
it takes me from
50 to 40
that's still pretty good
on the e-bike
so the answer to your question
is yes there will be
some degradation
but I'm not sure
there's a lot of things
you can do to mitigate that
yes that's true
if you start your ride
with a warm battery
you'll definitely
minimize that degradation
which is much harder
to do in an EV
I'll plug it in
I only have a couple more questions
are you guys a global
is this a
this is launching
around the world
it's launching in the USA
to start
but we are a global company
and we do intend to
get to some other markets
including Europe
and markets beyond that
in the coming year
I'm curious
because I think Tesla
all EVs have done really well
in the Nordic countries
and they're also famous
for like high adoption
of bicycling
but I'd be curious
whether
I don't know what their
e-bike adoption is
because I feel like
they're a little retro grouchy
interestingly the Nordic countries
there is an e-bike market there of course
but it's not as strong
as some of the other
countries in Europe
Germany is the largest e-bike market
in Europe
Italy is much
yeah
okay
okay
I want to land on price
also because I'm sort of
so maybe a little curious
about buying one
$3,500
okay so what does
the $4,500 launch edition get you
yeah
so there's two bikes
at $4,500
actually one is no longer
available so
you missed your chance
on the launch edition
those have sold out
and we have our inline
performance edition
which is the bike right here
that you rode
okay
the good news for you
is that from a performance perspective
the launch
and the performance are identical
you just got a special color way
if you got the launch
and you got the bike first
but
and then
that's the both
those bikes are priced
at $4,500
they start at $4,500
with the solo top frame
and then
what size battery at $4,500
that's the larger pack
the $800
or so watt hour battery
and then
the
standard TMB
it's called the TMB
starts at $3,500
with our standard pack
which is about 540 watt hours
now the key distinction there
is
yes there is a difference
in hardware
in terms of the battery
there is also a
it's a combination
hardware
software difference
which is in
back to that 0.3G
of acceleration
if you want 0.3G
of acceleration
you got to get the
performance bike
if you get the base bike
with the standard battery
you get a
max acceleration of 0.2G
which is still
pretty much better
than any other e-bike
on the market
but
not the full capability
of the performance
so what if it gets the
$3,500
then his wife gets the
$4,500 one
and can you
swap batteries
back and forth
does it care?
you can swap batteries
but all you'll get
is more or less range
what I'm saying is
it does care
you need the combination
of the software
I have an
800 watt
hour battery
I can't shove it in the
$3,500 bike
you can shove it
you can shove it
you just won't get
the 0.3G
you get the range
but you do get the range
the battery will
yeah yeah
that's right
okay so
$3,500
gets you
0.2G
of acceleration
$4,500
is 0.3G
it's faster
more range
no
well more range
for the battery
for the battery
okay
I got you
any other differences
well the other piece
that is
twice the level of assist
so you rode
the bike you rode today
had ten levels of assist
that's the performance
the standard T&B
has five levels of assist
so it won't assist you
quite as much
is it like you're going
from one to five
and then
six and through ten
don't exist on the
cheaper bike
or is it
correct
oh so
wait a second
so can I still do
20 miles an hour
oh yeah
you can still do
28 miles an hour even
I just don't have
the number of
not gears
assist levels
so gears
again gears being
that relationship
between the rotations
per minute of the pedals
and the rotations
per minute of the rear wheel
you have all the gears
and never
the assist levels
is like adding
think of it like
adding muscles to your legs
right
you get all ten
muscles
it's half as powerful
exactly
so if I live in a really
hilly neighborhood
I want to get
the higher performance
addition
I don't know you very well
I think no matter
what you're probably
going to get
the higher performance
addition
but
he's
very cheap
but in terms of
what would be
the most fun for you
the
cheapest one
it's not even
really about
hill climbing
now we're getting into
some real technical
parameters here
but
the question is
how fast
do you want to
get up that hill
basically
because
that's why
I said you want
the performance
because if you want to
get it up
we're talking about
let's say
I live
at the top of a 30%
grade in San Francisco
I can ride
my TNB
performance
up that hill
at 30% grade
with me
and all my stuff
from work
and go
about 25 miles an hour
if I had
the
standard bike
and
rode it up
that same hill
I would still
get up the hill
I'd have to work
a little bit harder
but not a
meaningful amount
harder
and I
would just be
500 bucks
is there a faster one?
not yet
okay
but great idea
okay
so I
if motorcycles are
legal
all this
like
this is a class this
like
I'm looking at one
from my wife
and we have a small
child
and I don't want her
to ever have to
worry about falling
over
because she's not
pedaling hard enough
and it's
4500 bucks
and it comes down
to this
and then
oh yeah
I don't think
you'd be in any danger
of that
with the standard
with the standard
yeah
you just lost a thousand bucks
I think
well maybe
I might buy two
but your audience
is many that
well I'm just
oh yeah
I'm just saying
upsell
upsell
one of the things
we say
about the standard
TMB
it's a little bit
tongue-in-cheek
but it is
there's truth to it
it's the best
performing e-bike
on the planet
you spent a lot of time
at Specialized
I was just looking
at some of these
other competitive
because
well you tell me
3500 bucks
4500 bucks
where in the pantheon
of e-bikes
does this sit
I know you can buy
really expensive
anything
but this is still
I mean
the market
leader
at least in my neighborhood
are these Rad Power Bikes
and they go around
15 to
100 bucks to
1800 bucks
this is
easily twice as much
I know you can get
a
I can
I can probably find
a 7500 dollar
that thing I have
is like 9 grand
maybe where they went out of
business
why is this
priced at the sweet spot
and what does this
give you over
because I looked at
it looks like
I'm gonna buy a
3000 dollar Specialized
but it's like
a really long
weird
truckie
like one
like what
why
why this
versus
I can
hear
1000 dollars
hmm
well the first thing
I'd say to those
readers is
like wait till you try
a TMB
and then I'd be curious
if you still feel that
your current e-bike is
as awesome as it is
although I'm sure
it is great
all e-bikes
you know there's
no such thing as
a bad e-bike
sure
but there are
only babies
go ahead
but
so why are these
price points
the sweet spot
like you said
we really wanted
to bring
I said this earlier
the space
which does
cost money
but we really wanted to
highlight
not that the TMB
is a
expensive or cheap
bike but that it is
a very accessible
affordable
electric vehicle
so you were asking
like if I give you
more money
can I get a faster thing
you have motorcycles
like who cares
if it's a class 3
bike or not
I think that's
a great point
and we just
to say that
we chose to
start
our micro mobility
journey with an
e-bike
in this context
because it means that
the way we think about
the bike is not
just as a bike
it's really as
this sort of
micro EV
form factor
and so when you think
of it in that context
you even said to yourself
that the
e-motorcycle you have
cost $9,000
this one
yeah maybe can't go
quite as fast
but it can do
everything you told me
you do with that
e-motorcycle
for about a third of the price
I can haul like
200
it's a little
it's a pretty heavy duty
but yeah
so
when you think about
all that
the TMB is capable of
it starts to seem
actually quite affordable
if you put it in the same
category as that
specialized bike
you were looking at
it maybe doesn't look
so appealing but it can do
a lot more than
that specialized bike
can do
and any bike
that can
kind of come
close to what the
TMB can do
is actually
you might not believe
this but it's actually
closer to the
like $10,000
price point
not just $7,500
but the price point
so yeah
alright
I lied
my last ask question
because I didn't ask you
how much suspension travel
does it have
roughly
120mm
front and rear
front and rear
and
it looks like
a top tubeless
sort of
if you squint your eyes
kind of a down hilly
kind of mountain bike
do you
expect people to
actually take it
like
in the summertime
and go bombin' down
will it take that
kind of abuse
I'll answer the last question first
yes it will take that
type of abuse
do I expect people
to do it
maybe
you know
what's really interesting
we designed this bike
and it's suspension
for seated comfort
I said earlier right
it's also
sort of a safety feature
you're going 28 miles an hour
the suspension is really
for that
the gentleman
who designed
the suspension for us
was the
long time
head of engineering
at a very well known
mountain bike company
for many years
not one that I used to work at
and we sort of
happened into
a very capable mountain bike
while designing it
for seated comfort
so you see things like
this inverted fork
if you squint
you can sort of tell
in the rear
that you have a high pivot
suspension
if any of your readers
or mountain bikers
they'll know that
that's kind of like
a buzzword right now
when it comes to mountain
bike suspension
and yeah this bike
and the wheel base
by the way
is pretty similar
to like a modern trail bike
again all of that
was sort of an accident
we were not making
a mountain bike
it does have this upside
that you can do
some of those
mountain bike rides
120 millimeters
is 4.7 inches
almost 5 inches of travel
good math
to
to ask a question
from Napoleon Dynamite
can you take it off
sweet jumps
oh heck yeah
yeah
yeah
and it'll be a kush
oh yeah
5 inches of travels
on the performance bike
that we're looking at
both the front
and rear suspension
our air suspension
so if you know
you're going to hit a lot
of jumps
and on the standard bike
only the rear is an air suspension
the front is a spring
the front is a spring
correct
cool
any more questions
no I
I didn't think we'd go this long
but we went in a full hour
yeah yeah
this is wild
way too long
but
no
how
okay I guess my question is like
does it fit in the back
of a Rivian pickup truck
hell yeah
cool
you better believe
that was the first pickup
truck that we tested
yeah
does it fit in the back
of a Rivian SUV
yes
without
taking the wheel off
uh
you take the top
it depends how you want to
fit it in there
but you don't have to
take the wheel off now
okay
cool
the site is
ridealso.com
uh
the vehicles
the TNBs
are currently available
except the launch edition
sold out
yeah
so you can get a performance
at 4500 bucks
the standard
at 3500 bucks
um
sol
lakin like bacon
lakin like bacon
that's me
thank you so much
thanks for taking us
for a ride
my pleasure
thanks for having me
great
thanks for watching
see you next time
bye
About this episode
Rivian spin-off also introduces the TMB (Transcendent Mobility Bicycle) at Rivian’s Venice hub, pitching an “automotive-grade” e-bike experience built around pedal-by-wire and a series-hybrid drive (no chain, belt to a motor). Guests ride it and praise how natural it feels—especially uphill—plus quick, intuitive acceleration. The team details the battery (R1 cell type, ~800 Wh for up to 100 miles), modular “top frame” swapping, built-in security, optional subscription for anti-theft alerts, and safety features like biomotion lighting and regen/mechanical braking. A future TMQ quad is teased for last-mile logistics.
Original notes
MotorTrend’s The InEVitable goes hands-on with one of the most interesting e-bikes ever built — the ALSO. TM-B (Transcendent Mobility Bicycle), born from Rivian’s skunkworks. We talk with ALSO's Director of Product Line, Saul Leiken about what makes this bike unique. This isn’t your typical e-bike. With pedal-by-wire tech, no chain, regenerative braking, and automotive-grade battery tech, the TMB blurs the line between bicycle and EV.
The InEVitable
MotorTrend
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