Should Oscar have given the place back to Lando? | The Car Podcast #53

A.I. had the time of my life, A.I. never failed this way before.

From building timelines to assigning the right people and even spotting risks across dozens of projects,

Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead and takes action.

One click on the star and consider it done.

And I owe it all to you.

Try Monday Sidekick. A.I. you'll love to use.

On Monday.com.

This is Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad.

Hello and welcome to episode 53 of the car podcast with Chris Harris and his friends.

Two of us, I think, are not in the UK and two of us, I think, are in the UK.

Three of us are not in the UK. Three of us are in Italy.

One of us stoned proudly waving that flag in blighting, it's Mr Cooper.

He stays there, you know, permanently just in case there's an emergency.

Someone's got some Italian people talking in the background quite loudly.

I don't know which one of us that is. I suspect I know which one is.

Me?

Yeah. So if you hear that in the background, just imagine that you're sitting in a cafe

somewhere in Milan, because that's exactly what's happening.

We start today's podcast with a difficult subject, one we've tackled before.

What to do about Lotus? Could we fix it? If we could, what will we do?

In fact, they hate offering to fix things because I'm not sure we're qualified to do so.

But I think we can observe what's gone on and maybe apply some sympathy

and hopefully not go down the route of saying this is what we do

because that would definitely fix it.

I'm not sure we could even with these massive brains next to me.

Let's start off with Mr Cooper.

Yeah. So we're recording this on Tuesday the 9th of September on Saturday in the UK,

the Financial Times published a really, really, actually quite good article.

I'll put it to show it to my colleagues now.

We'll put a little picture at the screen grab up on screen of the headline of the story.

It was good.

And unusually for these days, it was sort of quite well written

and somebody had probably indulged in some actual journalism

and rather than just using chat GPT or regurgitating stuff from Google.

Google? Google. I've just invented a new social media.

I've actually gone to talk to people.

It was kind of worse than I think we all hoped it was

and it was a mixture of awful strategy, poor leadership,

not great execution, culture, people troubles, lack of clarity, revolving doors, blah, blah, blah.

And the basic story was Lotus in Trouble.

A while ago in the summer, there was a story in the British press that said

there was a suggestion that the Lotus factory in Norfolk,

home of Lotus since 1966, was going to close.

And our view at the time was because that very quickly went away

and that somebody in UK government had probably gone to somebody in Geely

or in Lotus somewhere else and said, I don't care what you do,

get that story off the news.

We can't solve it. It ain't helping.

And very quickly there was a backtracking.

Last week there was a story that about half the workforce is going to be made redundant.

As chance would have it on Saturday,

I found myself nearby the local purveyor of Lotus cars

and that was a photograph that I took.

Again, we'll put it up so everyone can see it.

Even with a good version of the photograph, you'll still think

that looks like a rather anonymous looking collection of very large, generically styled,

I don't know what, are they SUVs? Are they saloons? Are they hatchbacks?

Shit, there's a Lotus badge on the bonnet of these cars

and one of them, which doesn't look terribly appealing,

has a price tag on those old fashioned little things hanging on the driver's mirror

that says £132,000.

That's what's gone wrong. So what's the answer?

Is there a solution? And I think we are eternally optimistic.

We'll never say die. We may not be experts in everything,

although how hard can it be sometimes.

What is the answer?

The first thing I think we've got to recognise,

I think Lotus has the wrong parent.

One of the smartest people I worked with a few years ago said,

thinking about M&A stuff and which businesses and which was to say,

there comes a point when you've got to realise you're the wrong parent for a business.

And right now, if you read that FT article,

that reeks of geely is the wrong parent for that business.

And money alone won't fix this problem.

So who should the parent be?

I mean, it could be any proven automotive business

that has taken on struggling or failing British brands

and made a success of them.

There are plenty that have done that.

VW did it with Bentley and certainly took it further.

BMW did it with Mini and with Rolls-Royce.

I made a great fist of taking Range Rover from the P38 to the 322.

So there is form for taking businesses like that.

And then there's, OK, what's it for?

What is Lotus for?

Those 130-odd grand Blemond things, that ain't a Lotus.

A Lotus is a light car.

It's a fun car.

It reminds us of, you know, small country roads

and Crikey when Mazda wanted to change its business.

It copied a Lotus and Land with the MX-5,

which has become the world's greatest selling sports car,

or something near that.

So it's not impossible.

So ownership, strategy, what does it stand for?

Money alone won't do it.

But I remain optimistic.

Yeah, I hope so.

Neil Clifford.

Well, I think that's brilliantly said, Chris.

And it was a depressingly, probably quite accurate article.

I suppose I have to play the optimist slightly.

If there was going to be a company that creates an EV sports car

that is affordable and fun and pretty, it should be Lotus.

That should be the strategy,

because even if we're all slightly anxious and depressed

about what EV means for driving pleasure, it's going to happen.

Even if the delayed's EV is more 10 or 15 years or whatever.

Driving pleasure isn't going to disappear completely

because of the introduction of EV,

because it is such a wonderful thing to go for a drive

and enjoy the movement.

And we'll talk a bit about that later, aren't we?

So I think it's written in the stars strategically

that Lotus do have an amazing opportunity to create a 50, 60 grand

or let's say 40 grand.

You know, if Chinese ownership means that you have the ability

to make four-door electric cars for 25 grand,

maybe you could make the EV a LAN for 25 or 30 grand.

And frankly, they'd sell a ton of them, wouldn't they?

I would expect because it's not always going to be

about these four-door sort of generic things.

There are going to be plenty of young people, old people

that will buy a 30 grand a LAN.

There's an EV that's got 300 miles range

and has an element of lightness.

It's a bit contradictory, isn't it?

It just had lightness.

No, I'll add a one ton battery.

But maybe, you know, there's amazing engineers,

incredible talent up in Hethel.

I'm sure the brains is there to do it.

So that's what I would hope is going to happen

out of this bit of a depressing current situation.

Yes.

What do you think, Manish,

given that you have a different connection to Hethel,

one that's very much center-based,

what do you think about what's going on at the moment?

Well, just before we came on,

we were just having a chat about the fact

that basically every couple of weeks on this pod

we talk about, and we might be specific about the manufacturer,

but if you like the climate of this pod

is very often what is happening to,

and then fill in the brand.

And, you know, the climate here is set by the fact

that, you know, electric vehicles are here.

They're here to stay.

You know, I hate the word disruptor,

but this technology has disrupted the ICE.

You know, I do believe in global warming.

I'm not a climate chain skeptic,

and I think, you know, we all agree

something needs to be done.

I think the thing is that car companies

have to segment and adapt.

And I wrote down, you know,

everything that Chris Cooper has just said,

you know, what is a lotus?

Light.

They weren't necessarily overpowered.

In fact, if anything, they were almost underpowered,

but because they were so light,

they were such wonderful cars, responsive, supple,

British styling.

You know, these were a few little headlines I wrote,

and Chris had said, you know, it's about the right parent.

So you've got a light kind of,

let's say adequately powered, responsive, supple, British style,

and you sell it to a Chinese EV manufacturer

and what they want is the badge.

That's what they want.

They want to put up the fact that if anyone can produce

a car like that and put a battery in it,

it could be lotus, and he brought up the key point

at a price point.

For our, we'll do it. Lamborghini will do it.

You'll have super car manufacturers will be able to do it.

But you have to do it at a price point.

And you're absolutely right, Neil.

If the Chinese sit down and say,

do you know what, we want to go for this

35,000 pound two-seat super light, beautifully supple car

with our latest, lightest, you know, Chinese tech battery

that charges in four minutes.

You know, that's the, that's the optimistic side.

I mean, my last little point would be a film analogy here.

A lot of people think that the kind of golden era

for Hollywood, I sort of agree,

sort of post-war was actually the 60s into the 70s.

And those films were cheap, responsive, direct to lead,

actor-driven.

There were the lotuses of that time.

Rock Hudson.

And then these came, sorry?

Rock Hudson.

Rock, well, apart from Rock Hudson.

He was more a TV actor in my opinion,

but the thing is that they were really fabulous dramas.

They were like little lotus cars,

and then Jaws came along,

and then superhero movies came along.

And look at the industry.

Look at the film industry.

It's sequel after sequel, trillions and trillions of pounds.

Even the Formula One movie,

they had to go and spend 400 million on it.

They couldn't spend 100 million on it,

or 50 million on it,

make it small, light, beautiful, and dramatic.

And I think cars, perhaps,

are going through a very similar crisis.

If you want to make lots of money,

make your cars really expensive,

make lots of them and sell them.

There's a problem with that.

No one's buying them.

Just like superhero movies,

they're now starting to kind of fall off.

We feel they're really samey.

I mean, you just showed that photo

of those 130,000 quid lotuses or low tie.

I mean, I can't tell that that's a lotus

apart from the badge.

You're exactly right.

Yeah, I want to be positive,

but I'm sort of running out of steam with it.

I was reading a copy of Car Magazine from 1983,

and I think the first news headline

was Lotus in Crisis.

Like I've said before,

it just seems to be perpetually in crisis,

which is ironic when I look in the mirror.

I think I can't really...

I can't see it at the moment.

I don't see the business case or the volumes

for a small electric sports car at the moment.

They might come.

I think deciding to do these big electric SUV

and saloon type things,

I can see why Geely thought,

well, we'll throw some money at that

because nothing else is selling at the moment

and the EU seems to be moving in that direction,

but it hasn't really worked.

I want Lotus to survive.

Of course I do,

I want the people there to survive more,

but I just don't see it at the moment.

I really don't.

Sometimes maybe you're better off stopping something,

having a rethink and re-emerging

like the phoenix from the ashes

as something completely new,

but do we really believe hand on heart

that if there was a small Lotus electric sports car,

it would fly off the shelves right now?

I don't think it would.

Porsche is pretty much shelving

or trying very hard not to launch

its electric box-string Cayman at the moment

because it knows that it's got a sales disaster

on its hands when it arrives.

So, I don't know,

I think the best thing Lotus could do

would be to collaborate.

I think it should Lotus-ify

some cars for now.

At the moment,

its production message hasn't really worked.

It hasn't resonated with people.

Some people apparently bought these things

for £130,000,

but just imagine if we had Lotus Carlton's

and Lotus Sunbeams

and I just think maybe apply the Lotus badge

to some really cool shit for now.

Give us some Lotus.

Ford could do with some interest, couldn't it?

How cool would that be

if we had a new Lotus Sunbeam?

So, keep the sexiness of the brand.

Remind us of its roots.

Go back, regroup,

and then re-emerge with a product.

It could be a small sports car.

It could be a small electric sports car,

but I think as we pointed out here,

I think that's still several years away

that the market for that car could be of any volume.

So, yeah,

I wish everyone the best.

I want it to be okay,

but it just seems...

There's a Bristol showroom on the way out

at Cribs Causeway

where you've got the Lovett Empire

and then in the middle of it is this outpost

of a bit of Lamborghini, bit of Bentley,

and the Lotus thing sits in the middle

and I always drive past it.

In my head, I've got one of those floating question marks

over the image as I go past it.

I've never really understood it.

So, there we go.

Moving on, because I can't see in my telephone,

my loaded friends are going to tell me

what this point on the agenda is.

Keep driving happy.

Yeah, I'm not one to answer that.

Keep driving happy.

I'm going to go straight to Manish.

Go on, tell me how you drive happy, Manish.

Well, tell you how I didn't drive happy

48 hours ago

and then just negate everything I say

and you've got the answer.

We are afflicted by a tube strike

in London

and I've got to tell you,

you have a tube strike in London

and everyone piles onto the buses.

Everyone piles onto...

He piles into their cars, into their cabs

and I, Lola, was invited

to the Hampton Court Fair,

went to go and pick her up on Sunday at tea time,

which should have been probably a 50-minute journey.

It was almost two hours,

averaging about six miles an hour.

And the only thing that kept me happy

was a very cool guy on a Ducati

overtook me,

pulled up in front of me, turned around

and blew me a little Italian kiss

like that when he saw the car.

Keep driving happy.

Don't drive tired.

Try to find roads that are not afflicted

with tons and tons of traffic.

I think don't drive hungover.

Try to avoid alcohol.

That keeps you very, very happy.

Try the right weather.

Not too hot, not too cold.

But here are my three killer points,

I think, pick the right music

if you're going to play music.

Pick the right passenger

if you're going to have a passenger

and pick the right car for the journey.

Don't drive at four miles an hour

in a hot Ferrari 456

in bumper-to-bumper traffic,

because it just winds you up

and it really doesn't matter

what the interior is like.

There is my answer.

Fabulous test of the cooling pack.

Fabulous test of the cooling pack

of the car, though.

If you survive that,

then you've got a healthy 456.

That more than an Autobahn road blast

is a much bigger test of the car.

You've never got above half temperature.

Never got above half temperature.

Amazing.

Let's go to

Neil Clifford.

I always bloody drive happy.

To be honest,

it's sort of the only place

where I am...

Well, that's not completely true.

It's sort of the happiest place.

Even if I'm

not looking forward to the journey,

it's eight o'clock at night

and I've got a drive home from the office,

it's still...

If my happiness level is at four,

I get into the car and it's at seven.

I just bloody love

being in the car.

I'm driving up this evening

from Milan up to

north of Milan

and I can't bloody wait.

I've got this little tingle,

I've got this little excitement.

I can drive for four or five hours

doing a job as in

commuting or working or

the sort of

more structured part of driving

and I can get home and within half an hour

I'm like, oh, should I go for a drive?

So

driving is my happy place.

It's

very, very, very rare

that I'm not happy

when I'm driving.

It's very often

a place that

I move my happiness needle up a lot.

I can be unhappy

I don't often show it

on the outside. I look happy all the time

but inside, you know, we're often

a little bit sad, aren't we?

Because stuff work and drama

and people and stuff

kids

but happiness

driving for me

is happiness.

So

yeah, I can't think of any time

where I don't

get happier if I get in a car

mainly on my own or with my wife.

It's questionable

the selection of

passenger apart from that to be honest

maybe a dog

apart from that I'm sort of

I'd rather there be no one

in the car apart from my wife and my dog

Is that a bit miserable?

It's a bit truthful

Our parents generation

used to say something about going on holiday

that I don't entirely agree with. They'd say

we love going to France

we just don't like the French.

Now I don't agree with that at all

but it's my slightly clumsy

way into the fact that I love driving

I just wish the roads were empty

it's other people on the roads that make me upset

not the road conditions or the cars

so because I'm someone

who just wakes up

thinking the world's against him anyway

I tell you this

I've got a little playbook for when you're on a journey

and your head goes, you know when your head goes

you've woken up, you've got in the car

you've had your coffee, all's good in the world

and five minutes in

you can see little flecks of spittle

against the windscreen because you're angry

at what's going on around you

don't allow it to happen

my playbook is this

you think music

is the solution it isn't

you need the spoken word at that point

you must not have music

and when you mustn't go for anything controversial

don't put a politics podcast on

you don't want to rouse opinions

you need something soothing

you need something nourishing

you need some comfort food

I always go for radio

ok now if you don't leave in England

you won't have heard of Ed Rins week

and you won't have heard of Cab Impression

or the other things that I listen to

but get some blackout

normally in the 80's BBC comedy

will bring you back from the brink

sailing that

stop the first time you can

stop at a service station

go for a little walk, get some air

remind yourself of the fact that you're not the wanker you thought you were

ten minutes ago

and then continue on your journey

love and compassion for your fellow motorist

because

all too often

it's not strategy you think it is

but I do this probably once a month

I think

me and society have got on the wrong foot today

this has not worked

I need to remove and it's not society's fault

you need to remove yourself

from the problem come away from it

and just go and chill out

find another way of doing it go for a walk

I did this Gloucester services

has a small little place you can walk

it's a little bit of greenery

it's absolutely littered with dog poo

people don't pick up their dog poo

but if you look at the ground and watch out for the dog eggs

actually you can just relax

so there you go

spoken word not music

also calm your speed down

just take it nice and steady

there you go that's my little playbook

Chris Cooper what about you

I think it's about

courtesy and good manners

and these are things we can all spread

please thank you

and sorry are the most

powerful things

everyone can do to make

driving happier for everybody

we've all had it

it's sort of

particularly in those

in urban areas where there's a

priority which traffic has

which way to

you have to give way to traffic come another way

in a traffic calming measure

it's really easy sometimes

to think oh I can just

nip through there and you can see

the person on the other side thinking

oh hang on did I have priority there

and I found it when I'm in the car

with the boys and Finley Cameron and I

have often said this is that

you'll see somebody doing something

which you sort of find

why have they done that that's really irritating

and selfish and so forth

but if they raise a hand to say

sorry the transformation

in emotion oh he's a good guy

he's a good guy he said sorry let's fight

no you go first no no after you

the transformation in the mood in the car

if somebody just raises a hand

to say sorry

or raises a hand to say thank you

when you're driving down a motorway

and you can see there are two cars

in the inside lane one's

catching the other and you're in the middle lane

if you anticipate

that and indicate and pull out

to vacate the middle lane

the car that's

gaining will then pull out

and when you see that little hand

raised in the window to say

thank you for the courtesy

of letting me out without me having to slow

down or put the indicator on

to say is it okay

please thank you and sorry

I think the most powerful things we can do

in these troubled times

where the car is our escape

the car is a happy place

it should always be a happy place

there are a lot of things we can do

to make it happier

happiest

please thank you and sorry

I think make the world a better place

I think that's true

let's point it on the agenda please

colour

what's got cooler what's got

uncooler

interesting that

not even thoughts about this

I'll think about it on the hoof

let's go first to

well I think

what has always been uncool

and has got uncooler

by the month is that weird

gloss battleship grey

or the matte version of that

in fact I think all matte cars are just uncool

end of story there isn't one

matte car not even in a movie

that looks good they just all look dreadful

all of them

they can take the classiest car in the world

they make it matte it's shit

that's just a global

universal stable rule

question Manish what about 4.1 cars

because they're now all matte

can't stand it can't I know they save

0.001 grams in a car

that weighs more than a lorry but that's fine

that's absolutely fine they can

save it I hate them I just think they look

terrible terrible

why are they matte is it about

waiter is it about how they appear on

TV pictures

apparently they all said that the matte

literally reduces the mass of a car

400 grams or something

lacka no lacka

no lacka

do you remember

that was a great thing about those

Moorbra McLarens they weren't

anywhere near the colour you see them on TV

when you saw them live

they were this kind of day glow orange but on TV

they had that kind of Moorbra packet

red I just assumed this matte

it is probably picked up by TV

reasonably but I think where you see it

the worst actually is Monaco

glossy cars used to look so good

now they're basically

exactly the same sort of tint tone

and reflection as the road

I don't think they look very good at all

but I'll tell you what I

I've always been a little bit of a fan

of green cars I have to say

I think green and greens just got cooler

most wrote down a few

rather lovely names so

we've got BMW

Isle of Man Green

and Boston Green

fabulous greens they got very

deep almost fir tree greens

I think the Boston Greens got probably a bit more blue in it

so that's really rather lovely

there's

the Porsche Largo Green

Metallic I mean that

is a colour

what's the other one I noted down here

Oh

Aston Martin racing green

I think as a variation

of British racing green that is a

fabulous green

so green is it

do you remember the very very first

Qantas

model 001 with the chrome

chrome windows surrounds that was green

I mean I think green cars

are most underrated in fact the first ever Ferrari

456 I

ever saw I think it was outside Harrods

it was in the 90s I can't remember

what year and I remember I walked past

it because I didn't think

it was a Ferrari I stopped I turned around

I went oh my god that's a Ferrari

and it was a very very deep

metallic green black leather inside

Verdi's Zeltvec any money it was

Zeltvec

I'll buy that beautiful colour

yeah I love the fact that

we now have a podcast

that is

fundamentally an audio product

where we have a man that directs films

reading out the colours

or the different types of greens

with no visual Q

whatsoever we'll attempt to put some of those up

if we have

it has

like to list some colours

through the power of language

to be great

read out Pantone numbers

yeah Neil Clifford colours please

what I think is coming

hotter

is navy blue

is really

the colour in my view

and I think it's been ignored for too long

I think

that that

so blue is the new green

I think it always has been actually

I think it's the sheikest colour

and I think

the opportunity maybe

to spec a new car in the next couple of months

and it's definitely

going to be navy blue

I think white

I think white is back

I think white has been

in the doldrums for a long time

but I

have a few

cool chums that are specking

white parts

and I think white could be the new green

I think brown

is also

brown is also very cool at the minute

I think greens almost

greens in danger I think

greens at my

my instinct is green is in danger

of

losing a bit of cool

the now cool is a very tricky

conversation

I think green could be

a good friend that runs

make green great again

maybe it's become great

and now it's at risk of being a bit too popular

particularly with gold wheels

please don't do

gold wheels on green cars

would be my advice

that's very very suspect

actually I was having a lovely

conversation

with

two beautiful Aston Martin

people at Hampton Pool

one of them is Mark Gauntlet

the son of Victor Gauntlet

the owner of Aston Martin

in the 80s

and also with Nicholas Me

the

number one Aston Martin guy

who worked for Victor

sales manager

sales director at Aston Martin

talking about cars

colours

and actually

we were looking at probably

your favourite car of all time

Chris Harris

which is the gladiator

red Aston Martin

VA Zagato

that so called

chassis number one

which is a very funny story

because they were telling me the story of chassis number one

and the fact that Victor

and Nicholas

both sold a car

on the launch day

at the British Motor Show

1987 and they both sat down

for a cup of tea and said I can't believe it

the guy wants chassis number one

and he's like that's a problem

because I've also sold chassis number one

so there is pre-production

chassis number one

and then there is chassis number one

which is a brilliant little story

the guy that ordered it

genuinely

walked past

the Nicholas Me stand

as we were talking about it

it was a very surreal moment

but what Nicholas was saying is

well what Victor said to me was

we need some new colours Nicholas

it's all a bit bloody boring

and green and grey what can we do

let's have a look at what everyone else is doing

so they looked at Ferrari

they looked at Rolls Royce

they looked at Bentley

this was about 1986-87

and they basically

rung up ICI

because he said even though it's called

Rossa Corsa or even though it's called

I don't know Pozzi Blue

or Rooster

they're all ICI colours

so we just had a meeting

with ICI

and nicked all the colours

so Gladiator

Gladiator Red

and most of them are named after British

British things like I don't know

Norfolk Blue

or Suffolk Red

or whatever

they named them being Aston Martin

after beautiful places in the UK

Gladiator Red

so I'm told

is Rossa Corsa

so we had

only so much pleasure

you can get out of sat with Nicholas Me

in the sunshine on Friday morning

with an Aston Martin's

round talking about Victor Gauntlet

and the selection of colours

what a joyful, joyful, bloody thing

but if you're

thinking about choosing a car

my advice, navy blue, non-metallic

ideally or white

this is why I asked this question

because I'm kind of a bit with you Neil

on this, I wonder whether

I still love green

I think it's very hard

it's unusual for me to look at a green car

and think

but is it just too

omnipresent

I don't know

it's in danger

and I really like what you said

because that's exactly what was in my head

when I thought about this question

and I thought we need to discuss this

when I think about the agenda

does it need to have a bit of a rest for a while

because

and I think that question about colours

we've discussed them before

and I think BMW has been

in recent years the worst for it

with Land Rover

with defenders in particular

which is grey, black

light black, darker black

pink black, total black

absolute black

and every blackety black version of black going

colour

what's wrong with a bit of colour

there was a...

I went to an event in North Yorkshire

and

there were seven or eight defenders

all black

black wheels, black glass

and I felt like I said

what about some colour

we had a green coloured Land Rover

there and everyone

looked at it, it's quite interesting to agree

that Buckingham Green or Night Sport

whatever it's called at the moment in Land Rover

everyone looked at it and said

of course that's a nice colour

so I think the

blue is interesting isn't it

because years ago

or even till quite recently

in the trade

dark blues, navy blues were regarded as

doom blue in other words

never sell that

but I've always thought

a nicely polished and clean

we all love clean cars

all clean cars are better pretty much

navy blues I think is pretty cool

a nice dark blue

they say in the fashion industry

for men

excuse the traffic

the statement is because navy blue

is always the best seller for men

navy is gravy

yeah

it's the best seller

men love navy blue

particularly in Italy, Italy particularly

as I was just hearing there

the sunshine helps in there

it makes the colour pop a bit more

I've got to think about

maroons

and sort of maroony colours

and sort of reds and different versions

of that

we don't need

we don't need any more

really really light

bright coloured colours of some

description which look like you've opened

a package of sweeties

and they've just cascaded over the table

you just want something that's just

they're a bit more interesting and got more

depth to them so I think

thank you

like

the red of that

I think you're right

colour is going to be the only way

we've said this before

the only way you can express yourself in cars

possibly

I think colour will come back

grey I mean we just need to

bury all the grey cars

and I think the matte thing

I mean totally

that's

the matte thing

the matte thing is quite a bit of death because

the car makers realise that it's a warranty

disaster when things start to peel

and people wash in the wrong way and put

products on them so they don't really offer

too many of them now the old special edition

on these

the subject of aesthetics I shouldn't really be

listening to and I've always made a point of

saying that I will never offer

any real opinion on the way it looks

because if you saw the way I dressed

you wouldn't trust that opinion anyway

I drive a bright yellow car most of the time

most people don't understand why I drive a yellow car

I've never explained it I'll tell you why

it's because I'm a hangover from my late daddy

who only chose

the colour of his car based on

whether it would help him see it in a car park

because he didn't

I think he just didn't really see stuff

the way other people do so he always had

a car

he always had a car that was in a colour that stood out

like a honeymoon

his dick basically so it was

either bright red, bright yellow

or bright white

that was really the colour of the vehicle

solid colours always

never metallics

so I rarely go down that route myself

because I like to have solid colours

rather than metallics

I also I believe green

the moment cars start being

presented in press specification in green

I worry a bit because that means greens become

mainstream

green shouldn't be mainstream

green should be special

but what is reassuring

about green and why your friend

that has to make green again

Instagram page will be safe

is that green cars suffer badly in the used car market

they still are worth less

if you've got a

sort of special green RS6 or so well

but if you've got anything else that's green

they struggle a bit

so that means that

green will never be fully accepted by

the populace

so what isn't cool

I'm going to be controversial here

PTS is not cool anymore

I think the coolest thing

that's a big statement

I just don't think it is

if you wanted the rarest 911 ST

find a white one or find one that's got no

PTS on it

for me it's just gone too far

if everyone wants to be special

then by definition

the ordinary thing becomes more special

because everyone else has done the special thing

I just think

guards red

guards red is now a PTS isn't it

but I just look at the standard colours

and go what's the one I like the most

I do think

another I always said

and I wrote this a few times that one of the ways

you can tell that the motor industry

is starting to ingest itself is when it starts

making cars with no windscreens and selling them for

a million quid that's the sign

that the lunatics are running the asylum

but the other one is when people are spending

£15,000

to paint their car

a slightly different colour

that is insanity

I'd love a

a white ST

with white wheels

there you go

but I do think colour

is the way forward

the battleship thing I agree with Manish

has gone a bit too far I don't really like

matte cars very much

but also

there's no choice isn't it

and I think

maybe one of the aspects of car ownership

that we should celebrate is

and it doesn't happen that often it's a privilege

is to order a new car

and to decide exactly what colour you want it to be

and to go through that process

that's a lovely thing to do as we see new cars sales falling

but fewer people are enjoying that pleasure

I haven't done it many times in my life

but it is rather lovely to sit there with your

configurator or back in the day

your brochure

then it lands and you go

no mate that's not the colour it was in the brochure

what's the next item on the agenda

I think we should

because we're a bit tight on time this morning

we'll skip

UK smart motorways

around for another day

I think we should talk about

short wheelbase or long wheelbase

oh god

I love the fact that someone else has had to cull a topic

because it's quite interesting

because quite often it's Mr C that doesn't like it being cull

because he'll give me those slightly cow

I prepared that one

this is my agenda today

and I put UK smart way to his end

because I had a rantathon of all rantathons

at the weekend

but we'll save that delight for another day

good well we've just saved our audience from that

good so what should we go for on short wheelbase

long wheelbase manage you can go

I'm going to answer this in a formula one way

just kind of

historically I

have got a real problem with modern cars

and you all know that

every time someone puts a mock up on the internet

showing you

what a car from the 70s or 80s looks like

compared to a modern formula one car

almost I think they're 30% longer

might even be a little bit more than that

and they're a good

20% wider

and these long wheelbase cars I guess

they have to be long wheelbase

and you know that the old rubric is

the old rubric

that short wheelbase cars

maneuverable a long wheelbase car

gives you better traction I guess you know

a one ton car with a

I'm being slightly facetious but a 798

kilo car

with

1000 horsepower

very heavy engine

with lots and lots of electronics

managing

how quickly these things go and they are quick

we've just seen the Grand Prix and we're going to talk about it

but you know they are really really quick

cars but there's just something

ungainly

about the long wheelbase

formula one car and you know it is

it's just I know it's not quite

truck racing but you know

always listening to the drivers saying oh

this car's so big they're quite difficult

to see out of they're not particularly

maneuverable and I just

if you find it on YouTube

you'll see

a little moment in 1979

at the British Grand Prix that was

Williams first win

play reg it's only one Alan Jones was

actually in the in the lead of that race

there's engine failed but

look at some

of the static shots especially through things

like Beckett's of a 1979

Williams it's got

450 horsepower this car

you know 480 you know it's a

Cosworth DFV

nothing special about it it's got a healing gearbox

it weighs

540 kilos

and just look at it corner

just look at it corner and in fact

look at it especially

going through complexes like mine just

watch it go left right left right just watch

it do that and there is

something to be said about you know this

beautiful short wheelbase

for racing for racing

at least you know I completely

get you've got a nice big limousine

sorry

and I just offer can you have a look

in profile where the drivers ankles are

relative to the front axle line in their

short wheelbase comes that's what I know

sometimes it sits in these things

but Chris so in 1988

they changed the rules the mass stayed the same

the wheelbase actually went up

very very little all they did was they just stipulated

that the seat needed to be

further back in the car so they actually compressed

the area for the engine

the fuel tanks and so on so the

I completely agree with you I think the drivers ankles

are much much better

behind the line of the front wheel

that's what I would say

it's just you know it's a general

point about short short wheelbase

versus long wheelbase there's something

beautiful about a motor racing car

with a short wheelbase

it's all I will say

okay I'll jump in here

so I agree

but it's

I think wheelbase

I'm going to go back to road cars

wheelbase is really about

you know

wheelbase is really about

it's relative to the

to the overhangs of the car

and it's

it's relative to the

the intended use of the car

so

it's a really good question this

and the dividing line

between what works and doesn't work for us individually

is really fine

so for example I've got a

Daimler Super V8 at the moment a car that I

really love far more than I thought

I would

when I first saw one of these things years ago

sorry there's a loud motorcycle behind me

I thought it was ungainly

when it was new because it was effectively a long wheelbase

XJR

I now think it's a far more elegant looking car

because the back door

the back door is about the same length as the front door

and now I see XJRs and I think

why's it got that funny little back door

so I think long

wheelbase sometimes

can work I'll give an example when short wheelbase fails

the Alpha Brara concept

looked fantastic in when it was at the

Motor Show and when they made it

they gave it this really funny little wheelbase

I presume it was from the GTV or whatever

whatever floor panel it was based on

so you had these long overhangs

and you'd go look at a Brara

you'd fix the Brara by giving it a longer

wheelbase

there are some cars that

you know a short Quattro

fantastic looking car, Clio V6

just fantastic because ultimately

if you have really short wheelbases

and very wide body work

that maybe is the ultimate recipe

for a vehicle that gets all of our juices flowing

is that sort of squat, four square look

on the road

but I think maybe the older you get

the more you appreciate

a longer wheelbase

as you slow down

you start to look at things

in a more appealing fashion I saw an S65

long wheelbase the other day

that's the car that when I was younger I thought

it was just too many counties, it was just huge

but something about that

chasm between the front and the rear wheels

I almost can't fit it

into my sort of standard binocular vision

I had to sort of pan with it

to see how long it was

and I thought it was rather magnificent

Are you mind-reading becoming a rear seat

human do you think

a little bit of you?

I just think sometimes there's an elegance

about long wheelbase cars

that when you're younger you don't appreciate

I'll move on to it

I think it is

I hadn't realised actually how rich

in Dubalon Tondra

or Smutty Metaphore

this subject was going to be

just listening to you about the funny little back door

on the XJR

I think you are right though

there's something about

I mean typically I've always said

we're looking at car adverts

and class for even from top mark days

to stuff on piston heads

on classic or whatever it is we're looking at now

when you see LWB

think oh no I won't quite like that

because it's just too long

and this is one on

Saturday when I was

patrolling the car showrooms

of Hatfield where there's

every posh car showroom there is

the Bentayga

works as a long wheelbase car

better than it does as a standard

wheelbase car

suddenly I mean

they made the long wheelbase car

because it was meant to be a replacement for the Mulsanne

I mean that's

sadly quite wasn't but the Bentayga

works as a long wheelbase

Land Rover Defender

this is kind of we need a whole

episode to talk about this one

lots of people

in my experience prefer the look

of the 90

the shorter wheelbase Defender

I can't get past the fact it's a reverse TARDIS

no matter how much it looks nice

you think hang on

it's got no function because you can't

put things in it

and even almost people

I've said this before but

the 110 and the 130

both of them are wrong

the 110

the rear overhang and you're right Chris

you talked about this it's a proportion of the rear overhang

bit

rearwards of the rear wheels

the wheelbase and front overhang

in the 110 the rear overhang is too short

in the 130 it's too big

there needs to be a 120

no one will buy a 120

just call it the 110

just make a 120

and call it the 110

solved

so before Neil Clifford answers

I'll offer you two examples

of how you can shorten the car

and how different the outcome can be

the original

2002 or one

Maserati Spider

so they shortened the wheelbase on a great looking car

we all thought that'll look great

when it turned up it just looked like

the smallest dog in the litter we can't use the R word

but it was like that's the last puppy

he's going to get sold that one

and then when Bentley chops some wheelbase

out of a Conti and it gives us the Conti T

it's one of the best looking

Bentley's ever made

wheelbase is curious the way that you can chop

a bit out and the result could be so different

Neil Clifford

so this subject

as Chris will remember

Cooper no Harris

came about because

we were talking about

purchasing Maserati's

W126's

off of car and classic

for

probably about an hour

about a week ago

and I sent him a link

of what I thought was

the ultimate W126

I've owned one of these

of JK actually owned the same car as me

because you always want to buy

the long wheelbase

and I sent him a link of the W

126 560

SEL

and Chris came back and said

I know it's cool

but really

the short wheelbase is cooler

and I'm like you

bastard

he's absolutely right

because if you're going to

drive it

you look a little bit of a knob

in a long wheelbase

and I've done it many times

I've had the fives

yes, often

the W140

which I bought

an amazing

12,000 mile

before they went silly prices for no reason at all

12,000 mile

W140

100

SEL

off of Robert Hughes

.co.uk

for 12,995

no, 12,995

it wasn't 129 grand

it was 12 grand

but as soon as he delivered it

I'm like what the fuck am I going to do with that

because I look

like a chauffeur driving around in it

and

suddenly the W126

500

SE

very important

SE

suddenly

looks like a Boeing 747

SP

it just looks fucking cooler

and really this discussion is only about

what should I buy and what should I drive

and what am I going to look cool in

and it was always

for me

naively

because you sat

on the bog or in bed

reading car magazines of the 80s

and dreaming

of what the bloody hell

can I do with my life

to be able to afford one of those

really long cars

but the moment you're lucky enough

to buy one not because you've been successful

because they're now 12 grand in car and classics

they don't bloody work

because they're too long

so the thinking

man's answer

of coolness and drivability

is the short wheelbase

there I've finished my sermon

you've finished there

Manish have you been able to go with this

yes I have

I think we're going to have to move on quite quickly

because people have got to get to meeting

so shall we go for a little bit of F1

and then we'll go for a very quick two car garage

a little bit of F1 then

a couple of minutes Neil did you watch the F1 or not

no

Max Fish Dappen

what a driver

this was a little bit of a McLaren

bogie circuit I should say that

because they tend to be very good

where you've got good downforce

a little bit of a compromise between some

speed and good downforce so this is

a zero downforce circuit

not even a low downforce circuit and I saw

a picture of Max Fish Dappen's rear wing

and they already had

a low downforce rear wing imagine

a monster

biting a chunk

out of the back of a rear wing that's what

it looked like but the reason why I say Max

Fish Dappen, Max Fish Dappen, Max Fish Dappen is

he had a

feel for this the engineers were taking

him including Miki's

a slightly different way and he said no

trim it I want the ultra trimmed

light wing and

put a little bit more downforce on the front wing

if the front bites I will control

the car for all 60 laps

and he did 57 laps

I mean it just to drive that well

I've seen one drive at

Monza you won't be surprised

it was Ayrton Senna

in 1992

and he beat the Williams

doing a Max Fish Dappen he just

trimmed the car

concentrated got every single

braking point right every single

turn end point right I mean it was just

it was a sublime drive I thought actually

Max's pole position was

absolutely sublime as well

it just he

went God boy that boy he wants to

turn it on he's

he's an acrobat he's a gymnast

he's an astronaut he's

just he's just so

far the best driver

compared to everyone else

I love lander I love Oscar maybe Oscar's

curve is growing and growing

and we'll see what Hagell

will be but my God

just when Max is in a

car at his best he's

just I love it

I love it

okay let's move on to Chris Cooper quickly

so two things to say

the McLaren driver

swap because

Lando's pit stop was slightly longer

because a wheel gun didn't work

I don't get

I think I can

I understand their argument which was you know

we were trying to be fair and we asked him to pit earlier

but none of that changed the fact

that something went wrong that can go wrong

and to try to fix that

by intervention I think

Piastri did the right thing by saying

you've asked me to do it therefore I will do it

but I don't agree I think it's all he could have done

if Piastri had ignored it I think

it would have been a much bigger fuss

but I think that will come back to bar

I thought that was wrong and I thought it was

an odd misstep by McLaren

the other thing

I wrote down my list was Mercedes

they look grumpy and pissed off

and unhappy all around

it got to the point this weekend where

Toto actually said well I don't think

worst effect of well

nobody's done a good job this weekend

and I thought

there comes a point where

you know

beating people until morale improves might not be

the only thing you can do to make

the team go better the car go faster

Antonelli had his first public skogging

from Toto

George looks really fed up

you know why haven't he signed anybody

Toto clearly wants Max in the car

we get that but you can't

run the whole world around will I won't

I get to sign one driver

and so

let's watch that space

Chris he thought he had Max in the car

by going after Antonelli didn't he

right so here we

here we go for once

I disagree about the swap

of the two cars I don't think it was

about it was about pit stop

they bought they swapped

what should have been the correct

pit positions around to allow

piastri to be detected

from the clerk so actually

at that point the strategy has been contorted

to benefit piastri which

is when it goes a bit wrong I get

I get that I mean the media fall out from

it is unfortunate so

normally I'd be totally with you on that ago

that's ridiculous it's just a racing incident

but the fact is if they hadn't been trying

to protect piastri Landau would have

printed first anyway so I sort of don't get that

I think

I agree with with Manish

there's a there's a paradox

about Monza the paradox is this

it's perceived as being the sort of skill the

circuit because it's all straights the irony is

Max proved it's arguably the most skill

full circuit it's the one place

where a driver can really make a difference

in the package you can trim a car back

and go do you know what I'll allow my testicles

to be much bigger than everyone else is

Max did something that no other driver can do

so I agree amazing I

thought the race itself was fundamentally

pretty disappointing I was like it was quite

dull really apart from you know

that little bit tougher at the end

it didn't really do it for me

one point

Lewis cuts a really sad figure at the moment

and

but his sadness segwayed into the

only thing that really annoyed me about the weekend which is this

and I'll probably get a shout out for this

Lewis was interviewed and this is maybe one of the pitfalls

of live broadcasting Lewis was interviewed

in the pen afterwards he tried to be positive

the interviewer was saying you know

you really looked on top of the car and he was like yeah

and they talked about the podium and all things

to reference the podium to

a driver who's not made it onto the podium

they said they referenced the podium as being the

coolest podium will you be up there or something

and he goes no I don't deserve

to be up there I didn't finish on the podium

I don't deserve to be up there

fast forward 10 minutes and all the

sky crew are up there on the podium

soaking up the applause

I don't know why you're broadcasting from the podium

for me the podium is sacred territory

you get to stand there when you win a race

and I think sky really fucked up

by having three people up there

soaking up the applause especially after

Lando had just been booed up there

so if I was Lando I'd be saying right

so I risked my neck at 220mph

between the walls of Monza and I get booed

and the broadcasters get to stand up there

and get cheered for just

holding a microphone

I just thought it was utterly ridiculous

there we go and I

and I said it on this group as well to my

learning friends so I got a bit excited

about it but I think if you're a driver

you don't deserve to be booed if you risk

your neck it's not fair

so let's do a two car garage

let's go can someone read it out

because I can't look at my telephone

oh my god I've got to find it

have you got it out please

yeah go on yeah

Giorgio Armani was your hero god rest his soul

you loved his clothes and you love

the way he made you feel about Italy

his clothes became iconic in the 1980s

so pick two Italian cars

they don't have to be

expensive exotics well they can be

but pick two cars that are stylish enough

to emerge from

an Armani suit and sunglasses

and turn heads there are no Italian

cars that stylish that would make me

turn heads so

why don't you go first Manish

okay my first one is this

rather beautiful it's

it's it's pre-sale at the moment

but it's a 72

Julia GTV

can you see that

oh yeah I see

myself coming that is

black polo neck cashmere

black jeans

black loafers

and you've got to have your beautiful

Armani grey Prince of

Wales check the black

that in the 80s would look so god

cool and then this is the one

where you turn up at a film premiere

in a car I've always had a love affair

with the Lancia Gamma I just think

it's a perfection car this one

the two-door one it's just

it's such a gorgeous shape

it's sort of the Bertone

absolute peak saloon

and I could see that black Armani

dinner suit one of those ones that just flops

off you very gently black brogues

with that I don't really like

very shiny shoes and the other thing is

you would wear an 80s wing collar with that

I know they're really not cool now

but I think you're going to come

step out of that car, 80s wing collar

there you go

Chris Cooper, two cars

so I'm kind of with you Manish

I think the nothing to me

says

1980s Armani

quite like

a Maserati bi-turbo

yes

it's a car in classic the auction starts

so we're on the 8th today

so in a few days time

it's a lovely space, really really nice

I like that and the other one

which is sort of this is the closest

I'd ever get to getting out of a car

that was kind of vaguely affordable

and

at least not feeling like a complete clown

it's a beautiful Giulietta

oh yes

yeah so I think that's

that starts this week

so on Friday when this goes out

you'll have a few days left to have a look at that

so to give you a full

marks and double ticks

see the headmaster for Chris Cooper

for choosing two cars within their auction

dates because we all fail to do that every week

thank you very much for your time

no, mine are both in their auction dates too

oh there you go

car and classic guys, get on there

look at these auctions

Neil Clifford

Armani for me actually

is all about the denim

even though I'm in Milan

and there's beautiful posters

of the man everywhere

and you land into Leonardo

and you see that beautiful

air

plain storage building

with Emporio Armani written on the top

for me the 80s

was about being able to afford

a pair of those jeans

with the little eagle

on the back

you couldn't buy them in Portsmouth

in fact you couldn't buy them in Tidster

you had to go to Brighton

you had to go to Brighton to get them

or get the train up to the Kings Road

and then there was that beautiful Emporio Armani store

on the Brompton Road from about 87

that was

for me that's Armani

so I'm going sort of late

mid to 80s

and I'm going

it was always a bit off-piste Armani

you know he didn't go with

the trends he just did his thing

right and it was

it was very hot

and then it was not so hot

but he always just did his thing

he didn't look at anyone else

so I'm going a bit quirky

I'm going

Alpha

RZ

and I think that

we all know that car very well

the FZ is the sort of easy choice

they're a little bit ugly

I think they're cool as fuck

to be honest so I'm going

and I can't put that picture up because I'm talking into my phone

but there is one

there's four for sale in the classifieds

I haven't done the auctions, sorry Tom

we tried to be as good as we can

on this thing

and the red is the

there were three colours in the RZ

yellow red and black and actually red was the rarest

so we're going

we're doing that

and then my normal choice

you have to go with your instinct

and your truth on this thing

you can't be a fakey

four door

late 80s Italian

cool

understated

if you know you know

I'm sure Giorgio would have had one

a Lancia 832

and he would have been chaufford about

on his little Sicilian island

and he would have

you know a beautiful chauffeur

and the leather

was the softest leather you've ever seen in your life

and probably grey

I had a navy blue one with

chocolate

you're always desperately anxious

that the electrics are going to go pop

even if you're driving down to Schelling

to fill it up with petrol

but it's one of the coolest Italian cars

both of which of these cars

you can get both of them for less than 100 grand

and on the basis Manish gave us

a budget I think I've been very frugal

you have

very good discipline there

832, yes I messaged a chap

who's got one two weekends ago

apparently I'm going to go and have a go on it

so there might be an 832

a transverse V8 saloon car

test coming up

Giorgio Armani for me

was sort of

Miami Vice really

I just thought

it was Miami Vice

it was just cool

it was Ralph Loretta and Giorgio Armani

they were just

the two names that you're associated with

the way Tubbs and Crockett looked

so obviously I've gone for White Tester Rossa

there is one on car on classic

I'll put it up now

and I thought the second car

couldn't be Italian but it was designed by an Italian

because ultimately I also

googled the cars of Miami Vice

of course I did

and I realised that ultimately

it was either a toner

or a fake Daytona Spider

or it was about a Tester Rossa

or it was about AMG Mercedes

now

the W126C

people call it the C126

I've worked this out

it is actually the W126C

the Pillarless Coupe by Bruno

who was Italian

so we can call it an Italian car I think

it's an Italian car that happens to be built by the Germans

there's an early 500

and that is

that for me would be my two car garage

and I would just wear

I wouldn't know what to wear

but I'd go to Neil Clifford my style consultant

and I'd say find me

a two vintage Armani

outfits that will look good when I step

from these vehicles at the 2 to

Benny Hill Climb dinner tonight

see you there darling

yeah so

I think we'll do a little bit of music before

we move on because people have to go to meetings

so a quick bit of music Chris Cooper

I've got a Juran Juran thing going on

at the moment and

save a prayer

oh yeah

great

manage Pandy

I'm going to go for

call me American Jigalos

music Blondie

Giorgio Armani's big

break into the movies 1980

yeah okay I like that

I'm going to say well now

I'm not allowed to laugh out loud

all right

the only way is up by

Yaz you've got to listen to that

listen to the intro to that

you're not giving it that when the intro comes in

right Neil Clifford

listen to this intro

I'm Juran Juran too my mate Paul

we're both a bit obsessed with Juran Juran at the minute

ordinary world

yeah

same outfit yeah

he sent it to me yesterday

yeah right

thank you very much to my learned friends

knowledgeable sympathetic kind friends

Neil Clifford Chris Cooper

and Manish

we will all look forward to

boring you again next week

and maybe you'll see some pictures on social media

of this lovely Italian thing that we're doing tonight

myself and Neil

thank you very much for listening

.

Fresh for everyone.

See Verizon.com for details.

Should Oscar have given the place back to Lando? | The Car Podcast #53

Land Rover Range Rover

Porsche Cayman

Lotus Carlton

Ferrari 456

Jeep Gladiator

Porsche 911

Jaguar XJR

Alfa Romeo GTV

Audi Quattro

Renault Clio V6

Bentley Bentayga

Land Rover Defender

Lancia Gamma

Alfa Romeo Giulietta

About this episode

Original notes