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Should Oscar have given the place back to Lando? | The Car Podcast #53
Should Oscar have given the place back to Lando? | The Car Podcast #53
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About this episode
A deep dive into the current struggles of Lotus, exploring its leadership issues and the impact of its ownership by Geely. The hosts discuss potential strategies for revitalizing the brand, emphasizing the need for a return to Lotus's roots of lightweight, fun cars. They also touch on the importance of electric vehicles in the future of driving pleasure. The episode features lively debates on the merits of short versus long wheelbases in cars, with anecdotes from the automotive world and personal driving experiences. A segment on F1 highlights Max Verstappen's impressive skills and the implications of team strategies.
Topics:
lotus struggles
geely ownership
electric vehicles
driving pleasure
short vs long wheelbase
formula one insights
team strategies
car aesthetics
driving experiences
Cars:
Alfa Romeo Giulietta
Alfa Romeo GTV
Audi Quattro
Bentley Bentayga
Ferrari 456 M GT
Jaguar XJR
Jeep Gladiator
Lancia Gamma
Land Rover Defender
Land Rover Range Rover
Lotus Carlton
Porsche 911
Porsche Cayman
Renault Clio V6
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This week, three quarters of the team are in sunny Italy! They chat about the most recent F1 race and it’s controversies, with much of our usual niche car chat. We hope you enjoy!
(00:00) Intro
(00:06) The trouble with Lotus - we can save it!
(14:22) Keep Driving Happy
(23:31) Colour - what’s got cooler/gone off
(39:18) SWB or LWB?
(51:38) F1
(58:05) 2CG by Car and Classic
(1:05:41) Music
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Technical
Too Afraid to Ask
Car
Land Rover Range Rover
"...d with Rolls-Royce. I made a great fist of taking Range Rover from the P38 to the 322. So there is form for tak..."
Car
Porsche Cayman
"...g very hard not to launch its electric box-string Cayman at the moment because it knows that it's got a sa..."
Car
Ferrari 456
"Don't drive at four miles an hour in a hot Ferrari 456 in bumper-to-bumper traffic,"
Car
Porsche 911
"I just don't think it is if you wanted the rarest 911 ST find a white one or find one that's got no"
Car
Jaguar XJR
"...t the same length as the front door and now I see XJRs and I think why's it got that funny little back d..."
Car
Alfa Romeo GTV
"... funny little wheelbase I presume it was from the GTV or whatever whatever floor panel it was based on"
Car
Renault Clio V6
"you know a short Quattro fantastic looking car, Clio V6 just fantastic because ultimately"
Car
Land Rover Defender
"works as a long wheelbase Land Rover Defender this is kind of we need a whole"
Car
Lancia Gamma
"...car I've always had a love affair with the Lancia Gamma I just think it's a perfection car this one"
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This is Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad.
Hello and welcome to episode 53 of the car podcast with Chris Harris and his friends.
Two of us, I think, are not in the UK and two of us, I think, are in the UK.
Three of us are not in the UK. Three of us are in Italy.
One of us stoned proudly waving that flag in blighting, it's Mr Cooper.
He stays there, you know, permanently just in case there's an emergency.
Someone's got some Italian people talking in the background quite loudly.
I don't know which one of us that is. I suspect I know which one is.
Me?
Yeah. So if you hear that in the background, just imagine that you're sitting in a cafe
somewhere in Milan, because that's exactly what's happening.
We start today's podcast with a difficult subject, one we've tackled before.
What to do about Lotus? Could we fix it? If we could, what will we do?
In fact, they hate offering to fix things because I'm not sure we're qualified to do so.
But I think we can observe what's gone on and maybe apply some sympathy
and hopefully not go down the route of saying this is what we do
because that would definitely fix it.
I'm not sure we could even with these massive brains next to me.
Let's start off with Mr Cooper.
Yeah. So we're recording this on Tuesday the 9th of September on Saturday in the UK,
the Financial Times published a really, really, actually quite good article.
I'll put it to show it to my colleagues now.
We'll put a little picture at the screen grab up on screen of the headline of the story.
It was good.
And unusually for these days, it was sort of quite well written
and somebody had probably indulged in some actual journalism
and rather than just using chat GPT or regurgitating stuff from Google.
Google? Google. I've just invented a new social media.
I've actually gone to talk to people.
It was kind of worse than I think we all hoped it was
and it was a mixture of awful strategy, poor leadership,
not great execution, culture, people troubles, lack of clarity, revolving doors, blah, blah, blah.
And the basic story was Lotus in Trouble.
A while ago in the summer, there was a story in the British press that said
there was a suggestion that the Lotus factory in Norfolk,
home of Lotus since 1966, was going to close.
And our view at the time was because that very quickly went away
and that somebody in UK government had probably gone to somebody in Geely
or in Lotus somewhere else and said, I don't care what you do,
get that story off the news.
We can't solve it. It ain't helping.
And very quickly there was a backtracking.
Last week there was a story that about half the workforce is going to be made redundant.
As chance would have it on Saturday,
I found myself nearby the local purveyor of Lotus cars
and that was a photograph that I took.
Again, we'll put it up so everyone can see it.
Even with a good version of the photograph, you'll still think
that looks like a rather anonymous looking collection of very large, generically styled,
I don't know what, are they SUVs? Are they saloons? Are they hatchbacks?
Shit, there's a Lotus badge on the bonnet of these cars
and one of them, which doesn't look terribly appealing,
has a price tag on those old fashioned little things hanging on the driver's mirror
that says £132,000.
That's what's gone wrong. So what's the answer?
Is there a solution? And I think we are eternally optimistic.
We'll never say die. We may not be experts in everything,
although how hard can it be sometimes.
What is the answer?
The first thing I think we've got to recognise,
I think Lotus has the wrong parent.
One of the smartest people I worked with a few years ago said,
thinking about M&A stuff and which businesses and which was to say,
there comes a point when you've got to realise you're the wrong parent for a business.
And right now, if you read that FT article,
that reeks of geely is the wrong parent for that business.
And money alone won't fix this problem.
So who should the parent be?
I mean, it could be any proven automotive business
that has taken on struggling or failing British brands
and made a success of them.
There are plenty that have done that.
VW did it with Bentley and certainly took it further.
BMW did it with Mini and with Rolls-Royce.
I made a great fist of taking Range Rover from the P38 to the 322.
So there is form for taking businesses like that.
And then there's, OK, what's it for?
What is Lotus for?
Those 130-odd grand Blemond things, that ain't a Lotus.
A Lotus is a light car.
It's a fun car.
It reminds us of, you know, small country roads
and Crikey when Mazda wanted to change its business.
It copied a Lotus and Land with the MX-5,
which has become the world's greatest selling sports car,
or something near that.
So it's not impossible.
So ownership, strategy, what does it stand for?
Money alone won't do it.
But I remain optimistic.
Yeah, I hope so.
Neil Clifford.
Well, I think that's brilliantly said, Chris.
And it was a depressingly, probably quite accurate article.
I suppose I have to play the optimist slightly.
If there was going to be a company that creates an EV sports car
that is affordable and fun and pretty, it should be Lotus.
That should be the strategy,
because even if we're all slightly anxious and depressed
about what EV means for driving pleasure, it's going to happen.
Even if the delayed's EV is more 10 or 15 years or whatever.
Driving pleasure isn't going to disappear completely
because of the introduction of EV,
because it is such a wonderful thing to go for a drive
and enjoy the movement.
And we'll talk a bit about that later, aren't we?
So I think it's written in the stars strategically
that Lotus do have an amazing opportunity to create a 50, 60 grand
or let's say 40 grand.
You know, if Chinese ownership means that you have the ability
to make four-door electric cars for 25 grand,
maybe you could make the EV a LAN for 25 or 30 grand.
And frankly, they'd sell a ton of them, wouldn't they?
I would expect because it's not always going to be
about these four-door sort of generic things.
There are going to be plenty of young people, old people
that will buy a 30 grand a LAN.
There's an EV that's got 300 miles range
and has an element of lightness.
It's a bit contradictory, isn't it?
It just had lightness.
No, I'll add a one ton battery.
But maybe, you know, there's amazing engineers,
incredible talent up in Hethel.
I'm sure the brains is there to do it.
So that's what I would hope is going to happen
out of this bit of a depressing current situation.
Yes.
What do you think, Manish,
given that you have a different connection to Hethel,
one that's very much center-based,
what do you think about what's going on at the moment?
Well, just before we came on,
we were just having a chat about the fact
that basically every couple of weeks on this pod
we talk about, and we might be specific about the manufacturer,
but if you like the climate of this pod
is very often what is happening to,
and then fill in the brand.
And, you know, the climate here is set by the fact
that, you know, electric vehicles are here.
They're here to stay.
You know, I hate the word disruptor,
but this technology has disrupted the ICE.
You know, I do believe in global warming.
I'm not a climate chain skeptic,
and I think, you know, we all agree
something needs to be done.
I think the thing is that car companies
have to segment and adapt.
And I wrote down, you know,
everything that Chris Cooper has just said,
you know, what is a lotus?
Light.
They weren't necessarily overpowered.
In fact, if anything, they were almost underpowered,
but because they were so light,
they were such wonderful cars, responsive, supple,
British styling.
You know, these were a few little headlines I wrote,
and Chris had said, you know, it's about the right parent.
So you've got a light kind of,
let's say adequately powered, responsive, supple, British style,
and you sell it to a Chinese EV manufacturer
and what they want is the badge.
That's what they want.
They want to put up the fact that if anyone can produce
a car like that and put a battery in it,
it could be lotus, and he brought up the key point
at a price point.
For our, we'll do it. Lamborghini will do it.
You'll have super car manufacturers will be able to do it.
But you have to do it at a price point.
And you're absolutely right, Neil.
If the Chinese sit down and say,
do you know what, we want to go for this
35,000 pound two-seat super light, beautifully supple car
with our latest, lightest, you know, Chinese tech battery
that charges in four minutes.
You know, that's the, that's the optimistic side.
I mean, my last little point would be a film analogy here.
A lot of people think that the kind of golden era
for Hollywood, I sort of agree,
sort of post-war was actually the 60s into the 70s.
And those films were cheap, responsive, direct to lead,
actor-driven.
There were the lotuses of that time.
Rock Hudson.
And then these came, sorry?
Rock Hudson.
Rock, well, apart from Rock Hudson.
He was more a TV actor in my opinion,
but the thing is that they were really fabulous dramas.
They were like little lotus cars,
and then Jaws came along,
and then superhero movies came along.
And look at the industry.
Look at the film industry.
It's sequel after sequel, trillions and trillions of pounds.
Even the Formula One movie,
they had to go and spend 400 million on it.
They couldn't spend 100 million on it,
or 50 million on it,
make it small, light, beautiful, and dramatic.
And I think cars, perhaps,
are going through a very similar crisis.
If you want to make lots of money,
make your cars really expensive,
make lots of them and sell them.
There's a problem with that.
No one's buying them.
Just like superhero movies,
they're now starting to kind of fall off.
We feel they're really samey.
I mean, you just showed that photo
of those 130,000 quid lotuses or low tie.
I mean, I can't tell that that's a lotus
apart from the badge.
You're exactly right.
Yeah, I want to be positive,
but I'm sort of running out of steam with it.
I was reading a copy of Car Magazine from 1983,
and I think the first news headline
was Lotus in Crisis.
Like I've said before,
it just seems to be perpetually in crisis,
which is ironic when I look in the mirror.
I think I can't really...
I can't see it at the moment.
I don't see the business case or the volumes
for a small electric sports car at the moment.
They might come.
I think deciding to do these big electric SUV
and saloon type things,
I can see why Geely thought,
well, we'll throw some money at that
because nothing else is selling at the moment
and the EU seems to be moving in that direction,
but it hasn't really worked.
I want Lotus to survive.
Of course I do,
I want the people there to survive more,
but I just don't see it at the moment.
I really don't.
Sometimes maybe you're better off stopping something,
having a rethink and re-emerging
like the phoenix from the ashes
as something completely new,
but do we really believe hand on heart
that if there was a small Lotus electric sports car,
it would fly off the shelves right now?
I don't think it would.
Porsche is pretty much shelving
or trying very hard not to launch
its electric box-string Cayman at the moment
because it knows that it's got a sales disaster
on its hands when it arrives.
So, I don't know,
I think the best thing Lotus could do
would be to collaborate.
I think it should Lotus-ify
some cars for now.
At the moment,
its production message hasn't really worked.
It hasn't resonated with people.
Some people apparently bought these things
for £130,000,
but just imagine if we had Lotus Carlton's
and Lotus Sunbeams
and I just think maybe apply the Lotus badge
to some really cool shit for now.
Give us some Lotus.
Ford could do with some interest, couldn't it?
How cool would that be
if we had a new Lotus Sunbeam?
So, keep the sexiness of the brand.
Remind us of its roots.
Go back, regroup,
and then re-emerge with a product.
It could be a small sports car.
It could be a small electric sports car,
but I think as we pointed out here,
I think that's still several years away
that the market for that car could be of any volume.
So, yeah,
I wish everyone the best.
I want it to be okay,
but it just seems...
There's a Bristol showroom on the way out
at Cribs Causeway
where you've got the Lovett Empire
and then in the middle of it is this outpost
of a bit of Lamborghini, bit of Bentley,
and the Lotus thing sits in the middle
and I always drive past it.
In my head, I've got one of those floating question marks
over the image as I go past it.
I've never really understood it.
So, there we go.
Moving on, because I can't see in my telephone,
my loaded friends are going to tell me
what this point on the agenda is.
Keep driving happy.
Yeah, I'm not one to answer that.
Keep driving happy.
I'm going to go straight to Manish.
Go on, tell me how you drive happy, Manish.
Well, tell you how I didn't drive happy
48 hours ago
and then just negate everything I say
and you've got the answer.
We are afflicted by a tube strike
in London
and I've got to tell you,
you have a tube strike in London
and everyone piles onto the buses.
Everyone piles onto...
He piles into their cars, into their cabs
and I, Lola, was invited
to the Hampton Court Fair,
went to go and pick her up on Sunday at tea time,
which should have been probably a 50-minute journey.
It was almost two hours,
averaging about six miles an hour.
And the only thing that kept me happy
was a very cool guy on a Ducati
overtook me,
pulled up in front of me, turned around
and blew me a little Italian kiss
like that when he saw the car.
Keep driving happy.
Don't drive tired.
Try to find roads that are not afflicted
with tons and tons of traffic.
I think don't drive hungover.
Try to avoid alcohol.
That keeps you very, very happy.
Try the right weather.
Not too hot, not too cold.
But here are my three killer points,
I think, pick the right music
if you're going to play music.
Pick the right passenger
if you're going to have a passenger
and pick the right car for the journey.
Don't drive at four miles an hour
in a hot Ferrari 456
in bumper-to-bumper traffic,
because it just winds you up
and it really doesn't matter
what the interior is like.
There is my answer.
Fabulous test of the cooling pack.
Fabulous test of the cooling pack
of the car, though.
If you survive that,
then you've got a healthy 456.
That more than an Autobahn road blast
is a much bigger test of the car.
You've never got above half temperature.
Never got above half temperature.
Amazing.
Let's go to
Neil Clifford.
I always bloody drive happy.
To be honest,
it's sort of the only place
where I am...
Well, that's not completely true.
It's sort of the happiest place.
Even if I'm
not looking forward to the journey,
it's eight o'clock at night
and I've got a drive home from the office,
it's still...
If my happiness level is at four,
I get into the car and it's at seven.
I just bloody love
being in the car.
I'm driving up this evening
from Milan up to
north of Milan
and I can't bloody wait.
I've got this little tingle,
I've got this little excitement.
I can drive for four or five hours
doing a job as in
commuting or working or
the sort of
more structured part of driving
and I can get home and within half an hour
I'm like, oh, should I go for a drive?
So
driving is my happy place.
It's
very, very, very rare
that I'm not happy
when I'm driving.
It's very often
a place that
I move my happiness needle up a lot.
I can be unhappy
I don't often show it
on the outside. I look happy all the time
but inside, you know, we're often
a little bit sad, aren't we?
Because stuff work and drama
and people and stuff
kids
but happiness
driving for me
is happiness.
So
yeah, I can't think of any time
where I don't
get happier if I get in a car
mainly on my own or with my wife.
It's questionable
the selection of
passenger apart from that to be honest
maybe a dog
apart from that I'm sort of
I'd rather there be no one
in the car apart from my wife and my dog
Is that a bit miserable?
It's a bit truthful
Our parents generation
used to say something about going on holiday
that I don't entirely agree with. They'd say
we love going to France
we just don't like the French.
Now I don't agree with that at all
but it's my slightly clumsy
way into the fact that I love driving
I just wish the roads were empty
it's other people on the roads that make me upset
not the road conditions or the cars
so because I'm someone
who just wakes up
thinking the world's against him anyway
I tell you this
I've got a little playbook for when you're on a journey
and your head goes, you know when your head goes
you've woken up, you've got in the car
you've had your coffee, all's good in the world
and five minutes in
you can see little flecks of spittle
against the windscreen because you're angry
at what's going on around you
don't allow it to happen
my playbook is this
you think music
is the solution it isn't
you need the spoken word at that point
you must not have music
and when you mustn't go for anything controversial
don't put a politics podcast on
you don't want to rouse opinions
you need something soothing
you need something nourishing
you need some comfort food
I always go for radio
ok now if you don't leave in England
you won't have heard of Ed Rins week
and you won't have heard of Cab Impression
or the other things that I listen to
but get some blackout
normally in the 80's BBC comedy
will bring you back from the brink
sailing that
stop the first time you can
stop at a service station
go for a little walk, get some air
remind yourself of the fact that you're not the wanker you thought you were
ten minutes ago
and then continue on your journey
love and compassion for your fellow motorist
because
all too often
it's not strategy you think it is
but I do this probably once a month
I think
me and society have got on the wrong foot today
this has not worked
I need to remove and it's not society's fault
you need to remove yourself
from the problem come away from it
and just go and chill out
find another way of doing it go for a walk
I did this Gloucester services
has a small little place you can walk
it's a little bit of greenery
it's absolutely littered with dog poo
people don't pick up their dog poo
but if you look at the ground and watch out for the dog eggs
actually you can just relax
so there you go
spoken word not music
also calm your speed down
just take it nice and steady
there you go that's my little playbook
Chris Cooper what about you
I think it's about
courtesy and good manners
and these are things we can all spread
please thank you
and sorry are the most
powerful things
everyone can do to make
driving happier for everybody
we've all had it
it's sort of
particularly in those
in urban areas where there's a
priority which traffic has
which way to
you have to give way to traffic come another way
in a traffic calming measure
it's really easy sometimes
to think oh I can just
nip through there and you can see
the person on the other side thinking
oh hang on did I have priority there
and I found it when I'm in the car
with the boys and Finley Cameron and I
have often said this is that
you'll see somebody doing something
which you sort of find
why have they done that that's really irritating
and selfish and so forth
but if they raise a hand to say
sorry the transformation
in emotion oh he's a good guy
he's a good guy he said sorry let's fight
no you go first no no after you
the transformation in the mood in the car
if somebody just raises a hand
to say sorry
or raises a hand to say thank you
when you're driving down a motorway
and you can see there are two cars
in the inside lane one's
catching the other and you're in the middle lane
if you anticipate
that and indicate and pull out
to vacate the middle lane
the car that's
gaining will then pull out
and when you see that little hand
raised in the window to say
thank you for the courtesy
of letting me out without me having to slow
down or put the indicator on
to say is it okay
please thank you and sorry
I think the most powerful things we can do
in these troubled times
where the car is our escape
the car is a happy place
it should always be a happy place
there are a lot of things we can do
to make it happier
happiest
please thank you and sorry
I think make the world a better place
I think that's true
let's point it on the agenda please
colour
what's got cooler what's got
uncooler
interesting that
not even thoughts about this
I'll think about it on the hoof
let's go first to
well I think
what has always been uncool
and has got uncooler
by the month is that weird
gloss battleship grey
or the matte version of that
in fact I think all matte cars are just uncool
end of story there isn't one
matte car not even in a movie
that looks good they just all look dreadful
all of them
they can take the classiest car in the world
they make it matte it's shit
that's just a global
universal stable rule
question Manish what about 4.1 cars
because they're now all matte
can't stand it can't I know they save
0.001 grams in a car
that weighs more than a lorry but that's fine
that's absolutely fine they can
save it I hate them I just think they look
terrible terrible
why are they matte is it about
waiter is it about how they appear on
TV pictures
apparently they all said that the matte
literally reduces the mass of a car
400 grams or something
lacka no lacka
no lacka
do you remember
that was a great thing about those
Moorbra McLarens they weren't
anywhere near the colour you see them on TV
when you saw them live
they were this kind of day glow orange but on TV
they had that kind of Moorbra packet
red I just assumed this matte
it is probably picked up by TV
reasonably but I think where you see it
the worst actually is Monaco
glossy cars used to look so good
now they're basically
exactly the same sort of tint tone
and reflection as the road
I don't think they look very good at all
but I'll tell you what I
I've always been a little bit of a fan
of green cars I have to say
I think green and greens just got cooler
most wrote down a few
rather lovely names so
we've got BMW
Isle of Man Green
and Boston Green
fabulous greens they got very
deep almost fir tree greens
I think the Boston Greens got probably a bit more blue in it
so that's really rather lovely
there's
the Porsche Largo Green
Metallic I mean that
is a colour
what's the other one I noted down here
Oh
Aston Martin racing green
I think as a variation
of British racing green that is a
fabulous green
so green is it
do you remember the very very first
Qantas
model 001 with the chrome
chrome windows surrounds that was green
I mean I think green cars
are most underrated in fact the first ever Ferrari
456 I
ever saw I think it was outside Harrods
it was in the 90s I can't remember
what year and I remember I walked past
it because I didn't think
it was a Ferrari I stopped I turned around
I went oh my god that's a Ferrari
and it was a very very deep
metallic green black leather inside
Verdi's Zeltvec any money it was
Zeltvec
I'll buy that beautiful colour
yeah I love the fact that
we now have a podcast
that is
fundamentally an audio product
where we have a man that directs films
reading out the colours
or the different types of greens
with no visual Q
whatsoever we'll attempt to put some of those up
if we have
it has
like to list some colours
through the power of language
to be great
read out Pantone numbers
yeah Neil Clifford colours please
what I think is coming
hotter
is navy blue
is really
the colour in my view
and I think it's been ignored for too long
I think
that that
so blue is the new green
I think it always has been actually
I think it's the sheikest colour
and I think
the opportunity maybe
to spec a new car in the next couple of months
and it's definitely
going to be navy blue
I think white
I think white is back
I think white has been
in the doldrums for a long time
but I
have a few
cool chums that are specking
white parts
and I think white could be the new green
I think brown
is also
brown is also very cool at the minute
I think greens almost
greens in danger I think
greens at my
my instinct is green is in danger
of
losing a bit of cool
the now cool is a very tricky
conversation
I think green could be
a good friend that runs
make green great again
maybe it's become great
and now it's at risk of being a bit too popular
particularly with gold wheels
please don't do
gold wheels on green cars
would be my advice
that's very very suspect
actually I was having a lovely
conversation
with
two beautiful Aston Martin
people at Hampton Pool
one of them is Mark Gauntlet
the son of Victor Gauntlet
the owner of Aston Martin
in the 80s
and also with Nicholas Me
the
number one Aston Martin guy
who worked for Victor
sales manager
sales director at Aston Martin
talking about cars
colours
and actually
we were looking at probably
your favourite car of all time
Chris Harris
which is the gladiator
red Aston Martin
VA Zagato
that so called
chassis number one
which is a very funny story
because they were telling me the story of chassis number one
and the fact that Victor
and Nicholas
both sold a car
on the launch day
at the British Motor Show
1987 and they both sat down
for a cup of tea and said I can't believe it
the guy wants chassis number one
and he's like that's a problem
because I've also sold chassis number one
so there is pre-production
chassis number one
and then there is chassis number one
which is a brilliant little story
the guy that ordered it
genuinely
walked past
the Nicholas Me stand
as we were talking about it
it was a very surreal moment
but what Nicholas was saying is
well what Victor said to me was
we need some new colours Nicholas
it's all a bit bloody boring
and green and grey what can we do
let's have a look at what everyone else is doing
so they looked at Ferrari
they looked at Rolls Royce
they looked at Bentley
this was about 1986-87
and they basically
rung up ICI
because he said even though it's called
Rossa Corsa or even though it's called
I don't know Pozzi Blue
or Rooster
they're all ICI colours
so we just had a meeting
with ICI
and nicked all the colours
so Gladiator
Gladiator Red
and most of them are named after British
British things like I don't know
Norfolk Blue
or Suffolk Red
or whatever
they named them being Aston Martin
after beautiful places in the UK
Gladiator Red
so I'm told
is Rossa Corsa
so we had
only so much pleasure
you can get out of sat with Nicholas Me
in the sunshine on Friday morning
with an Aston Martin's
round talking about Victor Gauntlet
and the selection of colours
what a joyful, joyful, bloody thing
but if you're
thinking about choosing a car
my advice, navy blue, non-metallic
ideally or white
this is why I asked this question
because I'm kind of a bit with you Neil
on this, I wonder whether
I still love green
I think it's very hard
it's unusual for me to look at a green car
and think
but is it just too
omnipresent
I don't know
it's in danger
and I really like what you said
because that's exactly what was in my head
when I thought about this question
and I thought we need to discuss this
when I think about the agenda
does it need to have a bit of a rest for a while
because
and I think that question about colours
we've discussed them before
and I think BMW has been
in recent years the worst for it
with Land Rover
with defenders in particular
which is grey, black
light black, darker black
pink black, total black
absolute black
and every blackety black version of black going
colour
what's wrong with a bit of colour
there was a...
I went to an event in North Yorkshire
and
there were seven or eight defenders
all black
black wheels, black glass
and I felt like I said
what about some colour
what about some colour
we had a green coloured Land Rover
there and everyone
looked at it, it's quite interesting to agree
that Buckingham Green or Night Sport
whatever it's called at the moment in Land Rover
everyone looked at it and said
of course that's a nice colour
so I think the
blue is interesting isn't it
because years ago
or even till quite recently
in the trade
dark blues, navy blues were regarded as
doom blue in other words
never sell that
but I've always thought
a nicely polished and clean
we all love clean cars
all clean cars are better pretty much
navy blues I think is pretty cool
a nice dark blue
they say in the fashion industry
for men
excuse the traffic
the statement is because navy blue
is always the best seller for men
navy is gravy
yeah
it's the best seller
men love navy blue
particularly in Italy, Italy particularly
as I was just hearing there
the sunshine helps in there
it makes the colour pop a bit more
I've got to think about
maroons
and sort of maroony colours
and sort of reds and different versions
of that
we don't need
we don't need any more
really really light
bright coloured colours of some
description which look like you've opened
a package of sweeties
and they've just cascaded over the table
you just want something that's just
they're a bit more interesting and got more
depth to them so I think
thank you
like
the red of that
I think you're right
colour is going to be the only way
we've said this before
the only way you can express yourself in cars
possibly
I think colour will come back
grey I mean we just need to
bury all the grey cars
and I think the matte thing
I mean totally
that's
the matte thing
the matte thing is quite a bit of death because
the car makers realise that it's a warranty
disaster when things start to peel
and people wash in the wrong way and put
products on them so they don't really offer
too many of them now the old special edition
on these
the subject of aesthetics I shouldn't really be
listening to and I've always made a point of
saying that I will never offer
any real opinion on the way it looks
because if you saw the way I dressed
you wouldn't trust that opinion anyway
I drive a bright yellow car most of the time
most people don't understand why I drive a yellow car
I've never explained it I'll tell you why
it's because I'm a hangover from my late daddy
who only chose
the colour of his car based on
whether it would help him see it in a car park
because he didn't
I think he just didn't really see stuff
the way other people do so he always had
a car
he always had a car that was in a colour that stood out
like a honeymoon
his dick basically so it was
either bright red, bright yellow
or bright white
that was really the colour of the vehicle
solid colours always
never metallics
so I rarely go down that route myself
because I like to have solid colours
rather than metallics
I also I believe green
the moment cars start being
presented in press specification in green
I worry a bit because that means greens become
mainstream
green shouldn't be mainstream
green should be special
but what is reassuring
about green and why your friend
that has to make green again
Instagram page will be safe
is that green cars suffer badly in the used car market
they still are worth less
if you've got a
sort of special green RS6 or so well
but if you've got anything else that's green
they struggle a bit
so that means that
green will never be fully accepted by
the populace
so what isn't cool
I'm going to be controversial here
PTS is not cool anymore
I think the coolest thing
that's a big statement
I just don't think it is
if you wanted the rarest 911 ST
find a white one or find one that's got no
PTS on it
for me it's just gone too far
if everyone wants to be special
then by definition
the ordinary thing becomes more special
because everyone else has done the special thing
I just think
guards red
guards red is now a PTS isn't it
but I just look at the standard colours
and go what's the one I like the most
I do think
another I always said
and I wrote this a few times that one of the ways
you can tell that the motor industry
is starting to ingest itself is when it starts
making cars with no windscreens and selling them for
a million quid that's the sign
that the lunatics are running the asylum
but the other one is when people are spending
£15,000
to paint their car
a slightly different colour
that is insanity
I'd love a
a white ST
with white wheels
there you go
but I do think colour
is the way forward
the battleship thing I agree with Manish
has gone a bit too far I don't really like
matte cars very much
but also
there's no choice isn't it
and I think
maybe one of the aspects of car ownership
that we should celebrate is
and it doesn't happen that often it's a privilege
is to order a new car
and to decide exactly what colour you want it to be
and to go through that process
that's a lovely thing to do as we see new cars sales falling
but fewer people are enjoying that pleasure
I haven't done it many times in my life
but it is rather lovely to sit there with your
configurator or back in the day
your brochure
then it lands and you go
no mate that's not the colour it was in the brochure
what's the next item on the agenda
I think we should
because we're a bit tight on time this morning
we'll skip
UK smart motorways
around for another day
I think we should talk about
short wheelbase or long wheelbase
oh god
I love the fact that someone else has had to cull a topic
because it's quite interesting
because quite often it's Mr C that doesn't like it being cull
because he'll give me those slightly cow
I prepared that one
this is my agenda today
and I put UK smart way to his end
because I had a rantathon of all rantathons
at the weekend
but we'll save that delight for another day
good well we've just saved our audience from that
good so what should we go for on short wheelbase
long wheelbase manage you can go
I'm going to answer this in a formula one way
just kind of
historically I
have got a real problem with modern cars
and you all know that
every time someone puts a mock up on the internet
showing you
what a car from the 70s or 80s looks like
compared to a modern formula one car
almost I think they're 30% longer
might even be a little bit more than that
and they're a good
20% wider
and these long wheelbase cars I guess
they have to be long wheelbase
and you know that the old rubric is
the old rubric
that short wheelbase cars
maneuverable a long wheelbase car
gives you better traction I guess you know
a one ton car with a
I'm being slightly facetious but a 798
kilo car
with
1000 horsepower
very heavy engine
with lots and lots of electronics
managing
how quickly these things go and they are quick
we've just seen the Grand Prix and we're going to talk about it
but you know they are really really quick
cars but there's just something
ungainly
about the long wheelbase
formula one car and you know it is
it's just I know it's not quite
truck racing but you know
always listening to the drivers saying oh
this car's so big they're quite difficult
to see out of they're not particularly
maneuverable and I just
if you find it on YouTube
you'll see
a little moment in 1979
at the British Grand Prix that was
Williams first win
play reg it's only one Alan Jones was
actually in the in the lead of that race
there's engine failed but
look at some
of the static shots especially through things
like Beckett's of a 1979
Williams it's got
450 horsepower this car
you know 480 you know it's a
Cosworth DFV
nothing special about it it's got a healing gearbox
it weighs
540 kilos
and just look at it corner
just look at it corner and in fact
look at it especially
going through complexes like mine just
watch it go left right left right just watch
it do that and there is
something to be said about you know this
beautiful short wheelbase
for racing for racing
at least you know I completely
get you've got a nice big limousine
sorry
and I just offer can you have a look
in profile where the drivers ankles are
relative to the front axle line in their
short wheelbase comes that's what I know
sometimes it sits in these things
but Chris so in 1988
they changed the rules the mass stayed the same
the wheelbase actually went up
very very little all they did was they just stipulated
that the seat needed to be
further back in the car so they actually compressed
the area for the engine
the fuel tanks and so on so the
I completely agree with you I think the drivers ankles
are much much better
behind the line of the front wheel
that's what I would say
it's just you know it's a general
point about short short wheelbase
versus long wheelbase there's something
beautiful about a motor racing car
with a short wheelbase
it's all I will say
okay I'll jump in here
so I agree
but it's
I think wheelbase
I'm going to go back to road cars
wheelbase is really about
you know
wheelbase is really about
it's relative to the
to the overhangs of the car
and it's
it's relative to the
the intended use of the car
so
it's a really good question this
and the dividing line
between what works and doesn't work for us individually
is really fine
so for example I've got a
Daimler Super V8 at the moment a car that I
really love far more than I thought
I would
when I first saw one of these things years ago
sorry there's a loud motorcycle behind me
I thought it was ungainly
when it was new because it was effectively a long wheelbase
XJR
I now think it's a far more elegant looking car
because the back door
the back door is about the same length as the front door
and now I see XJRs and I think
why's it got that funny little back door
so I think long
wheelbase sometimes
can work I'll give an example when short wheelbase fails
the Alpha Brara concept
looked fantastic in when it was at the
Motor Show and when they made it
they gave it this really funny little wheelbase
I presume it was from the GTV or whatever
whatever floor panel it was based on
so you had these long overhangs
and you'd go look at a Brara
you'd fix the Brara by giving it a longer
wheelbase
there are some cars that
you know a short Quattro
fantastic looking car, Clio V6
just fantastic because ultimately
if you have really short wheelbases
and very wide body work
that maybe is the ultimate recipe
for a vehicle that gets all of our juices flowing
is that sort of squat, four square look
on the road
but I think maybe the older you get
the more you appreciate
a longer wheelbase
as you slow down
you start to look at things
in a more appealing fashion I saw an S65
long wheelbase the other day
that's the car that when I was younger I thought
it was just too many counties, it was just huge
but something about that
chasm between the front and the rear wheels
I almost can't fit it
into my sort of standard binocular vision
I had to sort of pan with it
to see how long it was
and I thought it was rather magnificent
Are you mind-reading becoming a rear seat
human do you think
a little bit of you?
I just think sometimes there's an elegance
about long wheelbase cars
that when you're younger you don't appreciate
I'll move on to it
I think it is
I hadn't realised actually how rich
in Dubalon Tondra
or Smutty Metaphore
this subject was going to be
just listening to you about the funny little back door
on the XJR
I think you are right though
there's something about
I mean typically I've always said
we're looking at car adverts
and class for even from top mark days
to stuff on piston heads
on classic or whatever it is we're looking at now
when you see LWB
think oh no I won't quite like that
because it's just too long
and this is one on
Saturday when I was
patrolling the car showrooms
of Hatfield where there's
every posh car showroom there is
the Bentayga
works as a long wheelbase car
better than it does as a standard
wheelbase car
suddenly I mean
they made the long wheelbase car
because it was meant to be a replacement for the Mulsanne
I mean that's
sadly quite wasn't but the Bentayga
works as a long wheelbase
Land Rover Defender
this is kind of we need a whole
episode to talk about this one
lots of people
in my experience prefer the look
of the 90
the shorter wheelbase Defender
I can't get past the fact it's a reverse TARDIS
no matter how much it looks nice
you think hang on
it's got no function because you can't
put things in it
and even almost people
I've said this before but
the 110 and the 130
both of them are wrong
the 110
the rear overhang and you're right Chris
you talked about this it's a proportion of the rear overhang
bit
rearwards of the rear wheels
the wheelbase and front overhang
in the 110 the rear overhang is too short
in the 130 it's too big
there needs to be a 120
no one will buy a 120
just call it the 110
just make a 120
and call it the 110
solved
so before Neil Clifford answers
I'll offer you two examples
of how you can shorten the car
and how different the outcome can be
the original
2002 or one
Maserati Spider
so they shortened the wheelbase on a great looking car
we all thought that'll look great
when it turned up it just looked like
the smallest dog in the litter we can't use the R word
but it was like that's the last puppy
he's going to get sold that one
and then when Bentley chops some wheelbase
out of a Conti and it gives us the Conti T
it's one of the best looking
Bentley's ever made
wheelbase is curious the way that you can chop
a bit out and the result could be so different
Neil Clifford
so this subject
as Chris will remember
Cooper no Harris
came about because
we were talking about
purchasing Maserati's
W126's
off of car and classic
for
probably about an hour
about a week ago
and I sent him a link
of what I thought was
the ultimate W126
I've owned one of these
of JK actually owned the same car as me
because you always want to buy
the long wheelbase
and I sent him a link of the W
126 560
SEL
and Chris came back and said
I know it's cool
but really
the short wheelbase is cooler
and I'm like you
bastard
he's absolutely right
because if you're going to
drive it
you look a little bit of a knob
in a long wheelbase
and I've done it many times
I've had the fives
yes, often
the W140
which I bought
an amazing
12,000 mile
before they went silly prices for no reason at all
12,000 mile
W140
100
SEL
off of Robert Hughes
.co.uk
for 12,995
no, 12,995
it wasn't 129 grand
it was 12 grand
but as soon as he delivered it
I'm like what the fuck am I going to do with that
because I look
like a chauffeur driving around in it
and
suddenly the W126
500
SE
very important
SE
suddenly
looks like a Boeing 747
SP
it just looks fucking cooler
and really this discussion is only about
what should I buy and what should I drive
and what am I going to look cool in
and it was always
for me
naively
because you sat
on the bog or in bed
reading car magazines of the 80s
and dreaming
of what the bloody hell
can I do with my life
to be able to afford one of those
really long cars
but the moment you're lucky enough
to buy one not because you've been successful
because they're now 12 grand in car and classics
they don't bloody work
because they're too long
so the thinking
man's answer
of coolness and drivability
is the short wheelbase
there I've finished my sermon
you've finished there
Manish have you been able to go with this
yes I have
I think we're going to have to move on quite quickly
because people have got to get to meeting
so shall we go for a little bit of F1
and then we'll go for a very quick two car garage
a little bit of F1 then
a couple of minutes Neil did you watch the F1 or not
no
Max Fish Dappen
what a driver
what a driver
this was a little bit of a McLaren
bogie circuit I should say that
because they tend to be very good
where you've got good downforce
a little bit of a compromise between some
speed and good downforce so this is
a zero downforce circuit
not even a low downforce circuit and I saw
a picture of Max Fish Dappen's rear wing
and they already had
a low downforce rear wing imagine
a monster
biting a chunk
out of the back of a rear wing that's what
it looked like but the reason why I say Max
Fish Dappen, Max Fish Dappen, Max Fish Dappen is
he had a
feel for this the engineers were taking
him including Miki's
a slightly different way and he said no
trim it I want the ultra trimmed
light wing and
put a little bit more downforce on the front wing
if the front bites I will control
the car for all 60 laps
and he did 57 laps
I mean it just to drive that well
I've seen one drive at
Monza you won't be surprised
it was Ayrton Senna
it was Ayrton Senna
in 1992
and he beat the Williams
doing a Max Fish Dappen he just
trimmed the car
concentrated got every single
braking point right every single
turn end point right I mean it was just
it was a sublime drive I thought actually
Max's pole position was
absolutely sublime as well
it just he
went God boy that boy he wants to
turn it on he's
he's an acrobat he's a gymnast
he's an astronaut he's
just he's just so
far the best driver
compared to everyone else
I love lander I love Oscar maybe Oscar's
curve is growing and growing
and we'll see what Hagell
will be but my God
just when Max is in a
car at his best he's
just I love it
I love it
okay let's move on to Chris Cooper quickly
so two things to say
the McLaren driver
swap because
Lando's pit stop was slightly longer
because a wheel gun didn't work
I don't get
I think I can
I understand their argument which was you know
we were trying to be fair and we asked him to pit earlier
but none of that changed the fact
that something went wrong that can go wrong
and to try to fix that
by intervention I think
Piastri did the right thing by saying
you've asked me to do it therefore I will do it
but I don't agree I think it's all he could have done
if Piastri had ignored it I think
it would have been a much bigger fuss
but I think that will come back to bar
I thought that was wrong and I thought it was
an odd misstep by McLaren
the other thing
I wrote down my list was Mercedes
they look grumpy and pissed off
and unhappy all around
it got to the point this weekend where
Toto actually said well I don't think
worst effect of well
nobody's done a good job this weekend
and I thought
there comes a point where
you know
beating people until morale improves might not be
the only thing you can do to make
the team go better the car go faster
Antonelli had his first public skogging
from Toto
George looks really fed up
you know why haven't he signed anybody
Toto clearly wants Max in the car
we get that but you can't
run the whole world around will I won't
I get to sign one driver
and so
let's watch that space
Chris he thought he had Max in the car
by going after Antonelli didn't he
right so here we
here we go for once
I disagree about the swap
of the two cars I don't think it was
about it was about pit stop
they bought they swapped
what should have been the correct
pit positions around to allow
piastri to be detected
from the clerk so actually
at that point the strategy has been contorted
to benefit piastri which
is when it goes a bit wrong I get
I get that I mean the media fall out from
it is unfortunate so
normally I'd be totally with you on that ago
that's ridiculous it's just a racing incident
but the fact is if they hadn't been trying
to protect piastri Landau would have
printed first anyway so I sort of don't get that
I think
I agree with with Manish
there's a there's a paradox
about Monza the paradox is this
it's perceived as being the sort of skill the
circuit because it's all straights the irony is
Max proved it's arguably the most skill
full circuit it's the one place
where a driver can really make a difference
in the package you can trim a car back
and go do you know what I'll allow my testicles
to be much bigger than everyone else is
Max did something that no other driver can do
so I agree amazing I
thought the race itself was fundamentally
pretty disappointing I was like it was quite
dull really apart from you know
that little bit tougher at the end
it didn't really do it for me
one point
Lewis cuts a really sad figure at the moment
and
but his sadness segwayed into the
only thing that really annoyed me about the weekend which is this
and I'll probably get a shout out for this
Lewis was interviewed and this is maybe one of the pitfalls
of live broadcasting Lewis was interviewed
in the pen afterwards he tried to be positive
the interviewer was saying you know
you really looked on top of the car and he was like yeah
and they talked about the podium and all things
to reference the podium to
a driver who's not made it onto the podium
they said they referenced the podium as being the
coolest podium will you be up there or something
and he goes no I don't deserve
to be up there I didn't finish on the podium
I don't deserve to be up there
fast forward 10 minutes and all the
sky crew are up there on the podium
soaking up the applause
I don't know why you're broadcasting from the podium
for me the podium is sacred territory
you get to stand there when you win a race
and I think sky really fucked up
by having three people up there
soaking up the applause especially after
Lando had just been booed up there
so if I was Lando I'd be saying right
so I risked my neck at 220mph
between the walls of Monza and I get booed
and the broadcasters get to stand up there
and get cheered for just
holding a microphone
I just thought it was utterly ridiculous
there we go and I
and I said it on this group as well to my
learning friends so I got a bit excited
about it but I think if you're a driver
you don't deserve to be booed if you risk
your neck it's not fair
so let's do a two car garage
let's go can someone read it out
because I can't look at my telephone
oh my god I've got to find it
have you got it out please
yeah go on yeah
Giorgio Armani was your hero god rest his soul
you loved his clothes and you love
the way he made you feel about Italy
his clothes became iconic in the 1980s
so pick two Italian cars
they don't have to be
expensive exotics well they can be
but pick two cars that are stylish enough
to emerge from
an Armani suit and sunglasses
and turn heads there are no Italian
cars that stylish that would make me
turn heads so
why don't you go first Manish
okay my first one is this
rather beautiful it's
it's it's pre-sale at the moment
but it's a 72
Julia GTV
can you see that
oh yeah I see
myself coming that is
black polo neck cashmere
black jeans
black loafers
and you've got to have your beautiful
Armani grey Prince of
Wales check the black
that in the 80s would look so god
cool and then this is the one
where you turn up at a film premiere
in a car I've always had a love affair
with the Lancia Gamma I just think
it's a perfection car this one
the two-door one it's just
it's such a gorgeous shape
it's sort of the Bertone
absolute peak saloon
and I could see that black Armani
dinner suit one of those ones that just flops
off you very gently black brogues
with that I don't really like
very shiny shoes and the other thing is
you would wear an 80s wing collar with that
I know they're really not cool now
but I think you're going to come
step out of that car, 80s wing collar
there you go
Chris Cooper, two cars
so I'm kind of with you Manish
I think the nothing to me
says
1980s Armani
quite like
a Maserati bi-turbo
yes
it's a car in classic the auction starts
so we're on the 8th today
so in a few days time
it's a lovely space, really really nice
I like that and the other one
which is sort of this is the closest
I'd ever get to getting out of a car
that was kind of vaguely affordable
and
at least not feeling like a complete clown
it's a beautiful Giulietta
oh yes
yeah so I think that's
that starts this week
so on Friday when this goes out
you'll have a few days left to have a look at that
so to give you a full
marks and double ticks
see the headmaster for Chris Cooper
for choosing two cars within their auction
dates because we all fail to do that every week
thank you very much for your time
no, mine are both in their auction dates too
oh there you go
car and classic guys, get on there
look at these auctions
Neil Clifford
Armani for me actually
is all about the denim
even though I'm in Milan
and there's beautiful posters
of the man everywhere
and you land into Leonardo
and you see that beautiful
air
plain storage building
with Emporio Armani written on the top
for me the 80s
was about being able to afford
a pair of those jeans
with the little eagle
on the back
you couldn't buy them in Portsmouth
in fact you couldn't buy them in Tidster
you had to go to Brighton
you had to go to Brighton to get them
or get the train up to the Kings Road
and then there was that beautiful Emporio Armani store
on the Brompton Road from about 87
that was
for me that's Armani
so I'm going sort of late
mid to 80s
and I'm going
it was always a bit off-piste Armani
you know he didn't go with
the trends he just did his thing
right and it was
it was very hot
and then it was not so hot
but he always just did his thing
he didn't look at anyone else
so I'm going a bit quirky
I'm going
Alpha
RZ
and I think that
we all know that car very well
the FZ is the sort of easy choice
they're a little bit ugly
I think they're cool as fuck
to be honest so I'm going
and I can't put that picture up because I'm talking into my phone
but there is one
there's four for sale in the classifieds
I haven't done the auctions, sorry Tom
we tried to be as good as we can
on this thing
and the red is the
there were three colours in the RZ
yellow red and black and actually red was the rarest
so we're going
we're doing that
and then my normal choice
you have to go with your instinct
and your truth on this thing
you can't be a fakey
four door
late 80s Italian
cool
understated
if you know you know
I'm sure Giorgio would have had one
a Lancia 832
and he would have been chaufford about
on his little Sicilian island
and he would have
you know a beautiful chauffeur
and the leather
was the softest leather you've ever seen in your life
and probably grey
I had a navy blue one with
chocolate
you're always desperately anxious
that the electrics are going to go pop
even if you're driving down to Schelling
to fill it up with petrol
but it's one of the coolest Italian cars
both of which of these cars
you can get both of them for less than 100 grand
and on the basis Manish gave us
a budget I think I've been very frugal
you have
very good discipline there
832, yes I messaged a chap
who's got one two weekends ago
apparently I'm going to go and have a go on it
so there might be an 832
a transverse V8 saloon car
test coming up
Giorgio Armani for me
was sort of
Miami Vice really
I just thought
it was Miami Vice
it was just cool
it was Ralph Loretta and Giorgio Armani
they were just
the two names that you're associated with
the way Tubbs and Crockett looked
so obviously I've gone for White Tester Rossa
there is one on car on classic
I'll put it up now
and I thought the second car
couldn't be Italian but it was designed by an Italian
because ultimately I also
googled the cars of Miami Vice
of course I did
and I realised that ultimately
it was either a toner
or a fake Daytona Spider
or it was about a Tester Rossa
or it was about AMG Mercedes
now
the W126C
people call it the C126
I've worked this out
it is actually the W126C
the Pillarless Coupe by Bruno
who was Italian
so we can call it an Italian car I think
it's an Italian car that happens to be built by the Germans
there's an early 500
and that is
that for me would be my two car garage
and I would just wear
I wouldn't know what to wear
but I'd go to Neil Clifford my style consultant
and I'd say find me
a two vintage Armani
outfits that will look good when I step
from these vehicles at the 2 to
Benny Hill Climb dinner tonight
see you there darling
yeah so
I think we'll do a little bit of music before
we move on because people have to go to meetings
so a quick bit of music Chris Cooper
I've got a Juran Juran thing going on
at the moment and
save a prayer
oh yeah
great
manage Pandy
I'm going to go for
call me American Jigalos
music Blondie
Giorgio Armani's big
break into the movies 1980
yeah okay I like that
I'm going to say well now
I'm not allowed to laugh out loud
all right
the only way is up by
Yaz you've got to listen to that
listen to the intro to that
listen to the intro to that
you're not giving it that when the intro comes in
right Neil Clifford
listen to this intro
I'm Juran Juran too my mate Paul
we're both a bit obsessed with Juran Juran at the minute
ordinary world
yeah
same outfit yeah
he sent it to me yesterday
yeah right
thank you very much to my learned friends
knowledgeable sympathetic kind friends
Neil Clifford Chris Cooper
and Manish
we will all look forward to
boring you again next week
and maybe you'll see some pictures on social media
of this lovely Italian thing that we're doing tonight
myself and Neil
thank you very much for listening
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