“Lost generation” is basically a nickname people use when they think a certain Porsche era gets ignored. The host is saying the 997.1 is often overlooked compared to other 911s.
Porsche changed how the engine is cooled—from air cooling to water cooling. That can change how the car is built and what kind of maintenance it needs.
“Fried egg headlights” is a nickname for a specific headlight shape/design. People either love it or hate it, and it’s become part of the 996’s reputation.
IMS is a part inside some Porsche engines. The “IMS issue” is a well-known problem where that bearing can fail over time, potentially causing major engine damage. That’s why buyers pay attention to which engine generation a 911 has.
“Sleeping dog” is a colorful way of saying “people aren’t paying attention to this.” The host thinks the 997.1 is undervalued compared with the 997.2. The point is to look past hype and understand the real differences.
Direct fuel injection means the car sprays fuel straight into the engine’s cylinders. The host says the 997.2 got this system and it changed the engine design a lot. They also claim it helped avoid some of the earlier Porsche engine problems.
“Carfax history” refers to a vehicle history report that can summarize ownership, accident/incident records, and service events reported to databases. In buying a used Porsche, it’s often used to confirm that the car was serviced and to spot red flags.
Getting serviced at a Porsche dealer typically means work performed by technicians trained on Porsche systems and using manufacturer-approved procedures. While not a guarantee of perfection, dealer service records are often easier to verify and can improve buyer confidence.
Blackstone Lab is a company that analyzes used oil to help judge how an engine is doing. In this case, they’re being used as a source for how often bore scoring shows up.
Compression is the engine’s ability to squeeze the air/fuel mixture properly. If the cylinder walls are worn, the engine may not seal as well, so it doesn’t build pressure like it should.
Bore scoring means the inside walls of the engine cylinders are getting scratched or worn. If it’s there now, it can get worse and hurt how well the engine builds compression.
PPI stands for pre-purchase inspection, a professional inspection done before buying a used car. For a Porsche 997, it’s especially important because it can uncover hidden mechanical issues and confirm whether maintenance has been properly handled.
“Lug nuts” are the fasteners that secure the wheel to the hub. The host uses their condition (like rust) as a clue about how much attention the car has received, since lug nuts are often overlooked compared with more visible items like wheels and tires.
Extreme carpet fading is a sign of significant UV exposure and/or heat cycling. It can help corroborate other evidence (like dash cracks) that the car may have been stored outdoors or in harsh conditions.
The “vacuum” metaphor means when a more expensive or more desired variant (here, 997.2) rises in price, buyers who can’t stretch to it start looking at the next-best alternative (997.1). That demand spillover can lift prices for the earlier cars.
A “bridge vehicle” is a car that feels like it belongs to two different generations. They’re saying the 997.1 is in-between the old air-cooled 911s and newer ones.
An “install” means putting the new part on the car. Doing it correctly helps prevent rattles and exhaust leaks.
LIVE
Hey everyone, I'm Derek. This is 11 After 9. And today we're going to be talking about a 9-11
that I think is overlooked by the general Porsche community or they're just afraid of it,
the 997.1 generation. So in this episode, I'm going to talk a little bit about the car that I
just bought, my 2005 911 in seal gray. But I also want to talk about the dos and don'ts of looking
at these cars, some things to consider if you're looking at this generation. And I really want
to kind of give my honest assessment of the car and how it stacks up to the other generations
that I've owned and driven. So as always on 11 After 9 on the YouTube channel and now on the
podcast, I really want to provide honest, high value deep dive content for the everyman owners
out there, the people that just love to get out and drive. So if I could ask you to head over to
my YouTube channel 11 After 9, all spelled out in one word and check out the accompanying video
that I made on my 2005 911, you can also find me on Instagram at the 11 After 9 or head over to
11after9.com. All right, let's get into the content here. This is going to be an audio only podcast
might be for a couple of weeks while I get the video YouTube stuff set up. But I know you folks
are out there riding on those lawnmowers or pushing those snow blowers or maybe just driving in
traffic that have reached out to me really expressing that they love to hear my silly Porsche
ramblings on a Tuesday morning. And so here you go. So let's talk about the 997.1 for a minute.
The reason I called this kind of the lost generation, it's really more of a bridge generation. And you
can't really talk about the 997.1 without talking about the 996 that preceded it. So that was the
first water cooled Porsche that ran from 1999 to 2004. It ushered in a huge sea change for Porsche
going from air cooled to water cooled, changing the shape significantly. Of course, the controversial
fried egg headlights, a huge jump in production manufacturing changes making the car more efficient.
Some might say changing the quality, especially considering the interiors coming from a 993
generation. But a lot of those rough edges have really been sanded off in the last 20 years. And
996s are really coming into their own, of course, being recognized for the cars they are. So into
the 2005 year, Porsche kind of had a little bit of a return to form. There are many carryovers for
the 996 to the 997.1. But one of the things they did was give the car back its oval headlights that
were reminiscent of the last 40 years, give the body a little bit more of that 993 Coke bottle
shape with the larger hips, wider rear track. And while the car was substantially new in almost
every way, there were some mechanical carryovers, including the somewhat troublesome engine coming
out of the 996 generation, famously known for IMS issues, RMS seal leakage, and maybe bore scoring.
So this kind of sleeping dog 997.1 is bookended by the 996 and then the 997.2 that followed it.
That was in 2009 and ran to 2012. In this car, believe it or not, though it didn't look terribly
different from the 997.1, mechanically, it was very different. The interior was upgraded even
more. And the big, big change was the move to the direct fuel injected engine. It was a architecture
change completely moving away from the motors of the last 10 years or so. While substantially
different in character, it did away with the IMS issue problems that for good or for bad,
or for real or for not, had really plagued the previous generation. And today values really
reflect that. While the 996s, those values are coming up. You can certainly get a very decent
996 and now you find yourself in the high 20s, mid $30,000 range, but the 997.2s, that 2009 to
2012 generation, gosh, you can find those for $70,000, $80,000 now in the S form. The public has
really flocked to that because of the DFI motor and they feel like it's a safer bet in a better
car. So where does that leave my sleeping dog 997.1? Well, I really want to talk about how it might
leave it in a perfect position for those of you that want to get into a car for say $40,000,
that's an unbelievable 9-11 that compared to the 996, maybe I shouldn't be saying is under
appreciated, but certainly under appreciated in the grand scope compared to its younger brother
than 997.2. And just what I'm finding to be an absolutely amazing car. So let me talk about the
driving experience and then I can get into kind of the do's and the don'ts or the watch outs.
If you're looking for a 997.1, folks, I get to tell you getting into the 997.1, I was really
blown away the first time I drove it. I've owned a 997.2 and I gotta be honest, I was disappointed.
Now granted, it was a base model and it was a convertible. Aesthetically, I didn't necessarily
love the lines because and it wasn't Porsche's fault. They just simply didn't really have the
technology to keep the coupe lines in the convertible form until the 991 generation. And for
such a beautiful car as the 997, the convertible never quite hit me the same way as the coupe did.
But the .2 I owned was mechanically in great shape, but just underwhelming. The DFI motor was
just so quiet. It was so clinical. There was no drama and it was very smooth. And for me,
who is a bit of a hoon and I love my older 911s as much as my new ones, I want a little bit of
vibration. I want a little bit of drama. I want a little bit of theater and owning a 997.2, it kind
of drove me to go and get a fister exhaust and then a cross pipe and really try to make it as
loud and rowdy as possible so I could feel something. So this is the contrast in owning this 997.1.
Getting in this car, I was immediately surprised about how much it reminded me of my 993,
the last of the air cooled cars. Shifting while maybe a little bit more vague was definitely
more reminiscent of that 90s feel. The motor felt like pleasantly lumpy behind me and had that kind
of rough edge where it had kind of that air cooled characteristic instead of more of a
sophisticated, einsewe, dry German precision to it. The hydraulic steering is everything it's
cracked up to be. Listen, Porsche's new steering, the E-Past, the electric power steering is fantastic
and it is the best in the entire auto industry if you ask me. And even that first generation
isn't nearly as bad in the 991 as everyone says it is. But I gotta say, getting into these older
cars, feeling the texture through the steering wheel rim as you're driving is something that
everyone should really experience. And surprise, surprise, maybe the coolest thing of all is this
car is actually extremely rapid. It's a fast car, 325 horse, 273 pound-feet of torque. This is a
sub-5 second car in 2005 as a base model. Isn't that insane? I mean, I know we live in a world
now where six or seven hundred horsepower isn't anything. Electric cars are in the thousand
horsepower. But for an approachable car that has a lot of power behind it, I was wickedly impressed
by this base model. Though, and this is something I can talk about on a later podcast, interestingly,
my base 981 Boxster also feels extremely fast and fun with less than 270 horsepower. It is really
cool how Porsche translates horsepower to a real-world feel. But to compare the two is a little
unfair because it's just two different driving experiences. But honestly, to wrap up the driving
experiences in a word, amazing. Really blown away and well worth the price of admission of, say,
a $40,000 car that looks like an $80,000 car to anyone on the road. All right, I use the analogy
of the sleeping dog in relation to the 997.1. And I'm going to really try not to stretch this
analogy further than it should. But the sleeping dog, when you do search for a car, you can separate
it into two different camps. You can separate it into the loyal purebred or the stray. And what I
mean is there are two very different types of 997.1s out there when you're trying to vet which one
is right for you. So the first point I have for you is don't be afraid of higher mileage cars
with the caveat that they have to be well maintained. You've heard me say this ad nauseam in the past
and I don't want to dwell on it. But essentially, I would buy a higher mileage 911 Boxster that has
been well maintained over a lower mileage garage beauty queen that really hasn't seen the light
of day. And because of that doesn't have a long history of services. And also doesn't have a long
history of things breaking and getting fixed. Because I mean, those are things that are probably
going to break for you. So because of this, I put my money where my mouth was. And I picked up this
911 with 102,000 miles on it. 10 years ago, Derek would not be buying 100,000 mile Porsche.
I believe that, you know, you have to get him in that special sweet spot 40 to 70,000 miles for
value for reliability. You know, you don't want a car that's used up. But through almost two decades
of ownership experience, I know that advice is really bunk. Getting a higher mileage car
frees me up because I don't have that mental block of Oh, I don't want to hurt the car. I don't
want to put miles on it. These are all free miles. I hop in that car and I don't look at the odometer
once. And that is an amazing feeling. But the nice thing is this car does come with a long car
fax history of being serviced at the Porsche dealer through its last two owners. And these owners
drove the car, they drove the car as intended. And that's great. I love to see miles being put on
this car regularly, it going in for service regularly. And the other thing, of course, when
you look in the car fax, you're very cognizant to see if it's been in the shop for the same reason
multiple times. And this car didn't have that. So when it comes to the IMS, this is a very early
build car. This car was built in July of 2004. And so it has a replaceable IMS bearing, it had been
done by LM Engineering. And if you are looking for these cars, realize that sometime in 2006,
Porsche moved the architecture of the IMS to a larger non-replaceable bearing. And so
the 996s and the very early 997s, you can replace the bearing. But from mid 2006 on,
you have what Porsche intended. Now, this is a quote unquote more reliable bearing,
it's a larger bearing. I haven't heard as many issues with it. But again, time is on your side
because 2006, 2007, 2008, if a car hasn't failed in the last 15 or 16 years,
then most likely that bearing is doing its job. So do not be afraid of the larger non-replaceable
bearing. With a good maintenance history comes a good pre-purchase inspection. And as always,
I'm a huge proponent of that. I had it done soup to nuts. I actually went in and sat and went through
the car with the mechanic. It was an indie mechanic and he was very open to that. I'm not suggesting
that you bust into your local Porsche dealers workshop and get under the car with them. But
you do get a little leeway and more of the indie guys, especially if they know you're a car guy and
you ask really honest questions and you really want to learn your car. There are so many fantastic
mechanics that just love to teach as long as you're not getting in their way and making the
inspection go longer than it should. But another point, if you're looking for that kind of loyal,
purebred 997.1 is you really do have to check for bore score. Talking to the Blackstone Lab folks,
the actual incident of bore scoring on these base motors and the S motors is 3% or less.
And so it really is overblown when you start looking into the forums. But if you do have bore
scoring or the beginning of bore scoring, it is something you really want to be aware of,
whether that affects your purchase price in negotiations or just realizing that that's
something you're going to have to address down the line. Because bore scoring doesn't get better.
There's two ways you can do a bore scoring check. You can go in through the spark plug holes with
a bore scope and you can check to see on top of the pistons along the walls. If there's any scoring,
almost like scratches, which over time will get worse and affect compression. But there is an
issue with that. While it's the less expensive check, you have to realize that the piston is
sitting at the bottom of the cylinder and so it's blocking, I don't know, maybe 20%, 30% of the cylinder
that you can't see. And bore scoring normally starts at the bottom and comes up. And so you
have to kind of take it on faith that if everything looks fantastic, most likely the bottom does too.
If you do see some telltale signs, you really should look the other way when it comes to bore
scoring. And that is going through the oil sump from the bottom of the motor. And you can really
get a sense on the bottom of the cylinders. Other things to look for when you're looking for a car
that's been taken care of are the tires. Tires really do tell a story. Number one, what's the
date code? Are they all 10-year-old tires where the owner doesn't drive that much, it has a good
tread, he never thinks about it? Or is this someone really in tune with his car and realizes that even
if he's not driving the car, certainly the tires age and can become unsafe. If they get a nail in
the tire, do they just replace the one tire or do they replace it in pairs? Or if all are showing
wear, do they replace all four at once? So this tells you a lot about the mentality of the previous
owner, which kind of gives you a little bit window into how the car has been taken care of.
Do they throw on some cheap Korean tires? Or do they opt for a much more expensive set like a
Michelin Pilot Sport? Do they keep up with the alignment? Are the tires wearing correctly? All
of these things play into the calculus of looking at a car and seeing, is this something that I
can put my faith in when I purchase it. So the TLDR is don't be afraid of high mileage, make sure
you get a PPI, bore scoring check is absolutely a must, and look for the normal wear issues that a
car has and see if they've been addressed. Oh, and also maintenance is, as always and especially
with this generation, really preferable when you're putting together the math equation in your head
of moving forward with a purchase. Okay, so to put a fork in the analogy finally, our sleeping
dog 997, I've talked about what makes a good loyal dog in a car you want to bring home to your
garage. But what makes a scary dog? What makes a car something that if you see these telltale
signs you know that someday it just might turn around and bite you and ruin your ownership
experience or at least make it a much more expensive one. There are things you of course
you can vet before you even see the car. Car facts tell so much. While I have owned cars that have
double digit owners, that for me is certainly a red flag. And sometimes with these cars,
these 997s, the 996s, people buy them as a third or fourth car, don't drive them very much,
get the experience and then pass them along. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing as long
as the maintenance has been kept up on, but just realize that you have a lot of different personalities
and a lot of different ownership ethoses that have gone along with the ownership of the car.
Car facts also tells you of these. I'm going to call them dark periods. You might see the car is
maintenance religiously every year, oil change, inspection, and then all of a sudden there's
like a three year gap with an owner. Did they do their own work? Maybe. Did the car sit unused in
their garage? Maybe. You just don't know. But I will share something that bothers me more than
these dark periods is if I see a car serviced at, gosh, what am I going to call it? I guess maybe
like a chain store. So let's say you have an exhaust issue. If I see a 9-11 going to
Meinike to have any kind of exhaust work done, could they have done a great job? Yes. Do they
know these cars and see them often? No. But it also tells me kind of the mindset of the owner
in terms of what they're willing to put into this car from a money standpoint to repair it and keep
it driving. I'm not saying it has to go to a Porsche dealer, but I am saying I feel a lot better
if it goes to an indie mechanic, someone who specializes in these cars that can fix the exhaust
and get the car out the door. Let me talk to you about my lug nut theory. My lug nut theory is that
the lug nuts really do tell a story on the car. I'll give you a four example. If you come up to
a car and the rims are beautiful and the tires look brand new, but the lug nuts are rusty,
that tells me a few things. Lug nuts are often overlooked as a cosmetic item, as a safety item,
but they see the life of the car more than the rims or tires which can be refurbished or replaced.
So if I see rusty lug nuts, that tells me a couple things. Either it was driven in the rain a lot,
which is fine for a Porsche just like any car. Or this car was playing double duty as a four
seasons transport, which again is fine. But if the owner or the car you're looking at is telling you
that it's never seen a drop of rain and it's never been out of the garage past October, well then
you might have some questions because if someone's running a second set of tires and rims, most of the
time they run the same lug nuts. And while those winter tires and rims might be locked away in the
seller's basement to go along with his convenient story, the lug nuts might tell a different tale.
And it's something I always kind of pay special attention to because one more piece of information
that I put in my head as I'm going through the car. Other things when it comes to kind of the
car loved or was it kind of abused? Now certainly if you're looking to buy a car and it's just dirty
and filthy and not taken care of, well then I'm not really sure what the seller's thinking.
But I don't really mean that. The interiors of 997s are I believe a step up from the 996s,
but they do wear kind of the same way. And so don't be afraid if you see buttons that are worn,
especially kind of those rubberized buttons where the words come off. They look a little bit ratty.
Those can be replaced. And there are a number of interior normal wear things like kind of the
door handles being a little floppy. Sometimes the stereo knobs can get a little sticky. Or in the
driver's side carpet, you have that kind of worn circle where your heel rests near the gas pedal
or the clutch. Those things are completely normal. I mean, I'd love to see that the owner in his
course of ownership changed those out, you know, kind of feeling a sense of pride. But
those are easily fixed and not really that expensive. But when you start looking into poorly
repaired leather, tears in the seats, dash cracks, which tells me the car has been sitting outside
in direct sun or extreme fading in the color of the carpet, especially under the rear window,
any kind of mildew smell that tells me it was in a dark dank garage. These are all considerations
just again to talk about the ownership experience of the car before your ownership experience.
So here is the bite from the scary dog. You can absolutely rehabilitate this dog,
but it's going to come at a cost. You know, that we'll call it a vet bill is it can be $20,
$25,000 if you need some engine work or you need some major issues. And so just keep it in mind that
unfortunately in today's world, there's very few smoking deals where you feel like you stole a car.
The words out, especially in the dot twos and getting out there on the dot ones. And so these
are all considerations if you're looking for this car. Okay, so I hope I've been able to convey
kind of my thought process of looking at these cars and what I look for and what I did look for
in buying my higher mileage seal gray 997.1. But what I really want to leave you all with
is the sense that this is a fantastic car. It's a car that I think has gotten a bad wrap
undeservedly. And as the 997.2s explode in price, that vacuum is pulling up the 997.1s. And I'm
watching those values raise every single month. And so if it is something you're considering,
it would be a train I try to hop onto now rather than later. But this car is in every way a 911.
It's a very special car. And I kind of think of it as like a fantastic bridge vehicle, a bridge
model that ties in the older air cooled models with the newer, more modern stuff like the 991s.
And even the 997.2s, which I think are just a little bit more clinical. I'm going to have a lot
more content on this on the podcast, a lot more content on this on the YouTube channel as time
goes on. I am going to wake up the exhaust a little bit with a fister exhaust from Darren Fister.
And I'm really excited to share that install as he puts out some absolutely fantastic stuff.
And ultimately, I'm really excited to continue to put out content for this audience who has
been so unbelievably supportive and has my true gratitude for listening to kind of the silly
stuff that comes out of my face. Look for a lot of guests coming up on the podcast. Look for
a lot of characters, a lot of friends that I've made along the way that have different ownership
stories. And speaking of owners, look for some ownership stories whose lessons I think might
be fantastic for the broader group to hear. And most importantly, don't be shy to head over to
11after9.com. I'll spelled out and leave me a comment, send me an email with topics that you
want to hear about. It could be as nerdy as you want. But as always, I really want to put out
evergreen content that can be used in such a way that people can refer back to it if they find
themselves in a buying situation that maybe they never thought they'd be in. So with all that said,
I'm Derek. This is 11After9, the podcast. And thank you all so much for listening. See you next Tuesday.
About this episode
Derek dives into the “lost” 997.1 as an overlooked bridge 911, positioning it between the 996’s water-cooled transition and the 997.2’s direct-fuel-injection shift. He contrasts his 997.1 purchase with a prior 997.2, saying the 997.1 feels more analog—lumpier engine character, more 90s-era steering texture, and still surprisingly quick performance—while the 997.2 can feel too quiet/clinical. The core value is buying guidance: don’t fear higher miles if maintenance is solid, insist on a PPI plus bore-scope bore scoring check, and watch for red flags in service history, tire/lug-nut condition, and interior damage.
I just bought a 2005 Porsche 911 with 102,000 miles on it. And I'd do it again tomorrow.
In this episode I break down exactly what to look for — and what to run from — when buying a 997.1. IMS bearings, bore scoring, Carfax red flags, and why a set of cheap tires can tell you more about a previous owner than they ever would.
Whether you're actively shopping or just dreaming about it — this one's for you.
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