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The Foot, Development Drivers, and F1 Shakeups
The Foot, Development Drivers, and F1 Shakeups
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About this episode
The hosts dive into recent IndyCar developments, including Toby Salary's new development driver role with Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing and the growing trend of reserve drivers in IndyCar. They discuss the challenges and benefits of this approach, sim work, and team dynamics. The conversation shifts to a painful foot injury during a driver change, hybrid system issues at Thermal, and the hosts' experiences in Japan. The episode concludes with an in-depth analysis of the Red Bull F1 driver shakeup, exploring Liam Lawson's demotion, Yuki Tsunoda's promotion, and the unique challenges of driving alongside Max Verstappen.
Topics:
indycar development drivers
simulator work
driver injury
hybrid system issues
japan trip
red bull f1 driver changes
max verstappen driving style
liam lawson demotion
yuki tsunoda promotion
f1 team dynamics
Cars:
Rolls-Royce Phantom
Hinch is still in Japan, but he finally touches on dropping a car on his foot. The guys discuss development drivers for IndyCar teams, shakeups at Red Bull after two races in F1, and more.
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Rolls-Royce Phantom
"...e. It's my internet wasn't working. Phan mean not phantom. Internet follows me around the world."
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This is, is off track.
Hey guys. Welcome to Off Track with Razzi.
I, so I was really tired last week. What did we talk about?
Just so I know what not to cover this week. Thermal, right?
We covered thermal. Yeah,
We talked about thermal.
We, we, we previewed the whole Red Bull F1 saga. Yeah.
Yeah. Uh, I talked about something
that the internet got had an opinion about.
I don't really remember. Oh,
The fight.
Yes. We talked about the fight. Yep.
Um, we talked about how like, it's funny that you're just on vacation yet.
Nevermind. 'cause you showed up.
So we made fun of you in the beginning, but then you came so it was fine.
Hey, I was there the whole time.
It's my internet wasn't working. Phan mean not phantom.
Internet follows me around the world.
That's true. We, we made fun of
Japanese internet and how that's Yeah.
Very surprising that it wouldn't the irony get there. 'cause Yeah. The
Irony.
Um, and that's about it. We made fun of Tim.
Like if it was just a podcast with Tim, that certainly no one would listen. Um,
Yeah, there were some weird comments on that.
Some people very much agreed that they would hate an all me episode, but like one or two people said they'd like it.
I have a few things written down that we haven't covered that have happened and since there was no racing last weekend and stuff, we should just, we should just get over these.
I don't think we've mentioned that Toby salary signed a development deal with Ray Hall Letterman Landigan Racing.
He did. He did. And I, right.
And it kind of went under the radar a little bit.
I like this trend of IndyCar teams having like reserve slash development drivers. I like
It.
Why? Why?
Because it's, it's, it gives young drivers hope.
It makes them part of a team officially.
It means they probably at least get a test day or two out of it.
'cause there's, you know, rookie testing and driver eval tests that fall outside them. Wait,
With who?
Ray Hall. So is Yuri gone?
This was where I was kind of getting with this because at Thermal, Yuri was scootering around the paddock and I didn't get the chance to stop him and talk to him.
But like it would seem that there's like two Ray Hall Letterman Lannigan development drivers, which I Okay.
While, while one might be a decent idea, that's too much based on what you're explaining.
This is Yes. Twice as many as you need. Yeah. Correct.
It, yes. It's at least doubled the normal amount.
Um, but no, I mean, you know, Rojan signed on with Prema as a reserve driver in case something happens there.
Um, I don't know. I think it's, I like it.
So, so here's, here's here's my argument as to why it's unnecessary.
Hit me. Um, I understand the,
where you're going from a in theory standpoint mm-hmm .
But unfortunately IndyCar races, um, all within a two and a half hour, maybe four hour commercial flight.
Okay. So if a driver were to get injured, God forbid,
or a driver were to get ill, a driver can get from anywhere in the continental US to wherever IndyCar is racing in order to fill in. So, so
I'm not saying they told me to Be at because they're, they're traveling globally, right?
Yes. And it's very possible that in all these countries,
people get sick, food poisoning, whatever. Right.
Appendicitis, Appendicitis.
And they, there's no one on site to fill in. So I get that.
Okay. Sorry. I I'm not saying I think that they need
to follow the F1 model of the driver has to be there until the green flag on Sunday and then he can take off.
I just think it's cool that drivers you, you're picking your guy, right?
Like if that did happen, if, if, if Alex Rossi, hang on.
If Alex Rossi got appendicitis on Friday of Indie gp right? Because
He is a little bitch, Right.
We would all say suck it up and drive with appendicitis.
It's not that big a deal. Yeah. And then we would be like,
but who's ECR gonna call who gets that ride?
I mean, it's not Connor anymore. Connor.
Oh, Right. Yeah, exactly.
So now, you know, at least like who the call up is going to as a, as a young driver, that's something to sell.
You know, like it's something to look forward to.
And like I said, you can be part of those conversations or whatever.
I, again, they don't have to be at all the races for the reason you de you described, but I just think it's good.
I think it's cool. I think it's a good opportunity
for young guys and girls and I like that in racing. So anyway,
So I, I guess the big question will be, will be this, um, let's see.
I mean, God forbid someone actually is needed, like, we don't wanna talk about that.
That sucks. I've been a part of that. So, of you James.
Um, oh yeah. And Right.
Um, I'll be very curious if a juncos, I'm, I'm sure Juncos would, if a Ray Hall.
Well, again, as I'm talking about it, I'm sure they would.
Right. But like I, I could very,
I could see at some point someone having a reserve and still calling up whoever Hunter.
Right? Maybe not, maybe not, maybe not.
I just don't know because if you like, why do it then? What's, what's the,
I guess there's no, I guess there's no precedent for it.
The, the confusing thing is the confusing thing as the RA Hall one.
I would love to, maybe we should get Bobby on the show.
'cause I'd love to hear, I'd love to hear about, um, why they are taking this approach.
Does it come from kind of something that they saw with BMW and the sports car side of things?
Does it, 'cause it's not something that Indie car really has ever done.
Right? Um, so yeah.
Are they getting a huge amount of use out of it from, because do, for example, I can talk about this McLaren um, in the beginning.
So General Motors, uh, the sim that we, that all Chevy teams used to use was a Pratt Miller Sim essentially.
That was in, that was in Charlotte and Pratt.
Miller and GM split.
Um, and Pratt Miller kind of does their own thing.
GM started taking all of their tools and aerodynamic work and simulator work and everything in-house.
Um, and so as a result of that, GM bought their own sim multiple sims.
There's one for Cup, there's one for IMS a, there's gonna be one for F1 all in the same, uh, GM technical center in Concord.
Well, Sims are, sims are a, uh, there's a black magic to them.
They're very, very complicated.
Not only to get to work, but to get to a point where anyone, whether it's drivers or engineers or trusting what they're doing, like it, that's everything from the tire model to the vehicle model to the motion itself, to the graphics, to the track scans.
Like it's, it's a lot of work, a lot of money, a lot of effort.
At the beginning, um, it was a huge step back because the Pratt Miller Sim was, although it was fairly outdated, was tried and true and tested.
Highly knew the people, knew the offsets we're going to this new thing.
That even though it's modern day cutting edge, everything, it was, it was garbage in the, in the beginning.
It's, it's getting to be very good now. Yeah.
My point is, my point is, um, when I was at McLaren it was in, this was the transition.
So in the beginning, like it was a lot of really tough days and Patto made the decision that like he's done.
Like he's not, he he can't, it, it messes with his head too much.
'cause it's so far away from reality.
He doesn't really, he didn't really feel like he had enough input to give a direction to help.
So he was like, I'm not, I'm done wasting my time.
And everyone was like, fair enough.
Like, can't force you to do this.
I could only do so much because I'm an indie, it's in Charlotte.
And the six cars we all know was a rotation of drivers. Right. So
I wanted to interject to be like, they could force him to do it.
It's kind of like his joke. Well,
but yes, the team, it might not be the right move, but yes, yes, yes.
I mean, if, you know Patto, you kind of, you take, you take your lumps with your, with your gold.
Right? And so, um, we hired a driver,
and I'm not gonna say who it is, uh, that was in the Charlotte area, that he wasn't under a reserve role or any sort of role like that.
But he was doing a lot of work with some of the Chevy engineers and using McLaren sim days with our vehicle model and our tire model to kind of progress it forward.
Um, so that the certain days that I would go or that Teddy would go, or I guess at the end when Felix would go all this sort of thing, it would, it would be a little bit better than last time we were there.
I'm wondering if Graham is so busy with all of his businesses, um, you know, the other drivers. Louis
Doesn't have the experience yet. Exactly.
Whatever. I forget who was driving those cars last year.
It wasn't, they weren't doing a good enough job.
Ard. Oh well, okay.
So he was probably doing a good job. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, I I just wonder if the sim work is what they're using it for more than anything else.
And it, and it did say in the article that he would be doing some sim stuff for sure.
So that's, that's definitely a part of it. Mm-hmm .
I don't know how much of a part of it, but yes.
Anyway, I just think it's overall a positive thing.
And I hope it's something that more teams do.
'cause the other thing that I always found weird man, is like when you had a, you know, I, I mean he had to keep going back to Connor, but like, he talks about this famously having driven for pretty much every team, but Penske and GSI on the grid, um, like in one season driving for four different teams.
If I'm that team, I don't want to give that guy any useful information, right.
Because like there's a chance he's gonna end up over here.
There's a chance he's gonna end up over there because like for a while Connor was kind of the guy and whoever it is.
Yeah. Like let's say there's this one guy that's just kind
of the guy and I wouldn't want to, like, you'd be, you'd be so hesitant to share too much information with them 'cause they're not your guy.
And then you're holding back their potential performance on a weekend just to like get through the weekend.
But like that's a stupid way to approach a weekend.
So have someone the team knows that the team has under their control and you can run it properly.
So I have a question on that.
Obviously, like from the outside, I know that there's going to be stuff that the team holds back and that the driver knows.
But like, how much is there that the driver knows that they can't share?
Or what kind of things can they not share?
Well, I think every situation's different, right?
I mean, I feel like in some cases certain teams would be secretive enough to be like, you don't even get to see the setups.
Like you don't know what springs you're running.
You can say it's, you want more front grip or you think the rears too stiff or whatever.
But we're not gonna give you hard numbers.
We're not gonna tell you what diff we're running, we're not gonna tell you what I mean.
Suspension geometry, you can kind of see.
But like the, they would stop from even giving them the fundamental basics of a setup.
Um, the engine manufacturers might not tell them all the little tips and tricks on how to get the most outta the engine or the best for qualifying or this that of the other.
So there's, there's enough stuff that it, when you add it all together would, would be a disadvantage for sure.
So how much of that do you think came into play when Ray Hall went and raced for a Chevy instead of a Honda? Huge
Amount.
That was, yeah. I wouldn't, that was like the biggest
Wouldn't, I wouldn't Stumbling. I,
Yeah, I wouldn't say set up wise, there was a lot probably, um, just 'cause I don't think there was enough time.
But in terms of like engine optimization and stuff, yeah, I bet they didn't tell him anything.
And he'd also, like, it was also post qualifying where a lot of that, a lot of like the trade secret stuff there, there's an entire, like there's an entire part of the May engine stuff that's just for qualifying in a different chunk.
So obviously half of it you wouldn't have to worry about.
Anyway. I digress. Think it's cool.
I think more teams should do it, get on blurred, get on with it.
Other teams. Speaking of RA Hall, uh, Kuma announced
that he's running with Ray Hall for the 500.
We hadn't touched on that yet, so I figured that was worth mentioning.
'cause you know, two times 500 order two, almost three.
Um, he's back for another one.
Um, have not yet once addressed the foot from Seabring.
Uh, today I took my shoe off without pain for the first time.
So it's getting better. It's getting better.
So, okay. Uh, I mean what we,
we touched on it very briefly with the Jordan Taylor episode.
Um, yeah, if you didn't, if you didn't listen to that one, guys it's two weeks ago.
Learn about how he's just better and fitter and just a overall greater human than all of us.
It's great person combined. So, okay.
Uh, driver change.
Driver change is, is is a thing in, in sports, car racing, something that you probably haven't practiced enough.
Clearly if you're getting your foot dropped on.
Um, so what happened? I assume you were getting out.
I was getting out. So, and were you,
You running around the back of the car and you No, no.
Took a shortcut or? No, I was belting him in.
I was belting him in. Okay. And so the car's up and so
The chassis dropped on you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's
Way worse than the tire.
Oh. So much worse than the tire.
And like, and I talked to, I talked to other guys, they're like, yeah, I had it.
'cause you know when a car falls off the jacks right?
Obviously it's got springs on it and so it kind of dips down and then pops back up to the normal ride height.
Right? So a lot of guys have said like, yeah, I've had it
where like it comes and it slaps down.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. My foot was stuck.
Like Yeah, because there was the tires on it. No, no, no.
My foot was just so far under it and it was like way up on my foot.
So like I had to ref my foot three times to get it out from under the car.
And then I kind of just like threw the rest of the belts into the car, did the net up, was like, sorry dude, fix it yourself.
Slammed the door and one leg hopped over to pit wall.
Good times, huh?
Good Times. So yeah, it was swollen
and you know, bruised and scratched.
But in the defense, in the defense of the air Jack Guy that's on the other side of the car. Oh. So I know I
Have no it couldn't see.
No, it's not on them at all.
But also, like, that's not something like, I would never even consider that as a possibility.
So dude, there's literally you hadn't either So there was there no like heads up like this car?
No. Oh,
And I and, and, and I just think, I dunno if it's just maybe so uncommon that people don't even think about it. Don't mean can't,
Can't uncommon if all your teammates were like, yeah, yeah, it's happened.
Yeah, they've been driving this car for 10 years. Right.
So like they've had it at some point, but yeah.
Do you wanna know what's so funny though?
So like, it was very painful. I'm not gonna lie.
It was very painful. Thank God the TV cameras
were there to catch it all.
And uh, you know, I had to like have my foot up.
So I, I go to medical just to like, I knew it wasn't broken, but it was, it hurt and it was like bruised and bleeding a little bit.
So I went and got it band up.
So I deci I determine I'm, I'll be okay to get back in the car.
So I get back in the car, I do another double as I'm getting out.
Right. You would think one would think that only a few hours
after a fairly painful episode with my foot when placed in the exact same situation again.
I would be hyper aware of my foot placement. .
Here's what's hilarious. I get out, I start,
start belting him in and then when the tires are done, I notice that the guy in charge of the jack starts letting the car down very slowly, just like bleeding.
And I, so I see the car start to move and that was the first time I was like, where's my foot?
And I like jumped back from the car.
But as I got out of the car and started belting it back in, I had no regard for where my foot was had he just pulled it for all I know it would've been right under the car again.
That's how dumb I am. Yeah.
That's not great. No, no.
It's just how committed you are to getting driver changes under 15 seconds.
And I, trust me, I need every advantage I can get to get there.
'cause it is hard to do that when you're not great at it.
Um, I had a, I've I have two things from, uh, thermal One is just, uh, I don't know, we talked about it a little bit 'cause you had a lot of hybrid problems.
But, um, an article came out on Racer that like an overwhelming majority of the issues that drivers face with the hybrid at thermal was actually they were actually team induced and, Um, in the race, not in the race any the time prior to that.
Yes. No, I know, I know. Your issues were not. Um, yes.
And that in the article it said that here, it actually, it actually calls yours out. But
Here's what's interesting.
Um, you're absolutely right And explain why, explain what teams did right or wrong.
Right. So I I I can't, I can't say too much.
Um, but what I will say is this is all new for everyone.
Um, and so essentially, essentially what was wrong was the hybrid was getting too hot.
The teams can control the cooling to the hybrid based on the inlet blockers that they'd run on the backside of the radiators, um, to essentially the hybrid cooler, if you will.
It's not a radiator, it's like a heat sink sort of thing.
Um, and there's an advantage to running more blocker because it's better for performance, uh, less track in terms of, in terms of aerodynamics.
But obviously it's, it's worse for performance in terms of heat.
The blockers are, are chosen by the teams. Yes.
But they are, they are recommended and the manufacturers are assisting in in choosing.
Okay. Um, and everyone had a problem except
one team, which team?
CGR. And I just think that it's, it's amazing.
Like I don't think there's any, any funny business going on.
That's not what I'm alluding to.
What I'm, what I'm saying is like they, they clearly have a better understanding of, of, of everything.
Like it's not, it's not only just that they have a better understanding of like tired day, but they have a better understanding of how the hybrid would get hot in certain situations with these new power limits that no one else had thought of, including manufacturers. And it's just like
Every other team Dang had at least one car with a, a hot hybrid in thermal.
Yes. Huh. Interesting. Does that include Meyer Shank?
Yes. That's even more interesting. Yeah.
That's even more interesting if I'm, if I'm Mike Shank, I'm like, what am I paying for again?
Exactly. , do I not get all the information anymore?
Is that not how that works? I,
I dunno.
I dunno. But yeah. Interesting. Okay.
It was, um, yeah, so, um, listen, it's, we've talked about the hybrid a lot.
Um, it's in terms of performance, me having the hybrid in the race, um, does not negatively, I didn't finish ninth 'cause my hybrid stopped working.
I was gonna finish ninth. Correct. Regardless.
And Polo didn't win because his was working and, and no one else was.
So let's not, let's not, let's not make this out to be like, this isn't some performance thing.
It doesn't, frankly. And what's sad is
sad is it doesn't make a difference.
Like this is just another example that like, it can work or not work and your end result doesn't change.
The annoying thing about it is we do use it in, as I've explained before, we do use it as a, as a balance tool.
And when you're having to cycle it, when you can use it for three laps on, two laps off whatever, four laps on one lap off whatever sequence you decide, um, it, it becomes a little annoying as a driver because you're, you're changing a lot of things for one lap to cool it down and then you're reverting back and it's just, it adds an extra layer, um, that wouldn't otherwise be necessary.
Uh, which is fine 'cause we're professional Right.
Score drivers and that's what we're paid to do.
We need to adapt. But it's just like, it's more of a,
honestly a ball ache than anything else.
Yeah. Like, you're not f you're not frustrated
'cause you're going slower, you're frustrated 'cause it's just all these extra steps you're doing throughout the lap that you otherwise wouldn't have to.
Right. Um, but yeah. Okay.
So very, very, very interesting and quite frankly not surprising that CGR has it has it figured out.
Um, but yes, it's good to to note that the hybrid issues in thermal were a hundred percent team induced.
It's not some series wide problem with hybrids, you know?
Right. My bad luck on the 20 car.
I mean, I'm not surprised that I have it.
Uh, that makes perfect sense to me. Um,
Yeah, you're a terrible person, Right?
Right. . But, uh, quite frankly
Universal karma.
But again, quite frankly, it didn't, it didn't affect anything for us throughout the weekend, other than it limited lapse for us.
'cause we were trying to diagnose it, but it's not like we went slower because it was off.
So that's all right.
So Japan's cool. Oh, it's the best.
So we've been, we've had the chance.
We've now done some, some days in Tokyo, some days in Osaka.
We did a day trip to Hiroshima.
Today we're being like full on tourists.
Um, but, uh, there's just some of the, some of the food, like the food obviously, like the, the food that you expect to be good is obviously phenomenal.
But there is other food here.
There are snack foods that are incredible. Um,
There's also some really gross ones.
Oh dude. There's a lot of stuff that's like offensive
to even smell.
Nevermind. Think about putting in your mouth.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but the two, Becky
and I went to this place today, um, in Hiroshima.
And um, we just walked around this little like market that had all these little kiosks and like stalls and whatever.
And we're just like, let's eat one of those now we have to try that.
Let's eat this more of this one. This is good.
And we just went around and we were just eating food.
It was hilarious. We were just like, it was kind of dinner.
We just sort of walked around just eating samples.
Not samples, but like, just one of these, all these different things.
But we came across a couple like dessert type things that are phenomenal.
And the neither one of them seem particularly Japanese, but I need to just, I need to just explain.
I know you're gonna love this.
How about biscoff cookies with vanilla icing?
Like Oreo icing in the middle. Hmm.
Incredible. Absolute fire.
Why are these not in North America?
Um, but the, the winner, the winner so far is one of these bad boys. Okay. Now
Just 'cause it's maple, I mean subjectively Yes, but objectively also.
Yes. Mm-hmm . So you open up this little thing
and it looks like a little kind of mave leaf type deal or something else, and it's like a little kind of cake.
And by anyway, Brunner's never gonna be the same. This is cake. We haven't
Had a, a runner in like three years, so Oh no.
But it is like a pancake that tastes like it's got syrup and butter already in it, but it's not like squishy or wet or sticky.
I don't know how they do it, but it doesn't taste dry either.
And the flavor is the most magic mapley thing ever.
I just, I bought so many of them and I'm bringing them home.
And you have to try these things.
They're absolutely incredible. I okay away.
I'll go away or show them dude.
Japanese snacks. So, so Felix, um, raced in Japan
for, for a while.
Um, he did super formula, super GT stuff and everything.
And he garnered quite a fan base when he was over there.
And so when, now that he's an IndyCar, there's still a couple Japanese fans that come to certain races and all this sort of thing.
And they bring him like wagons full of snacks. And so I just remember
He's Full in the driver lounge.
Uh, in 23 there would be all of these random Japanese snacks and like 97% of them are fire.
Just so Good. Just everything, whether it's savory
or sweet or both.
Yeah. Yeah. It's
Just, it's sour. Phenomenal.
They just nail it. Yeah. It's just it, they just get it.
Exactly right. So, um,
Do you know what's weird about this place though?
You're the tallest guy there. .
What was, what's surprising is, I don't know why, but I came into this trip with the belief, the assumption that, 'cause like you hear how clean Japan is, that they're like also super environmentally conscious.
Right. And certainly in some ways they are.
But I have never seen a place with more like single use plastics in everyday use.
Everything is wrapped in plastic.
Every napkin at every restaurant comes in an individually wrapped piece of plastic.
We got some laundry done at the hotel, man.
They're far more concerned about hygiene than they are the environment.
The world. Yeah. Right.
Dude, we got laundry done at the hotel.
Every shirt, every pair of boxers, every pair of socks individually like, like shrink wrapped into its own plastic bag.
Not all into one big bag. Mm. Yeah.
Each one made it great for packing.
I bet. I bet it was the best laundry you've ever had.
Oh, it's incredible. I haven't, I won't wear it.
I don't wanna wear it. I refuse to open those bags.
'cause those clothes will never be cleaner and more perfect.
Yeah. And I just wild. Absolutely wild.
But, uh, but yeah, having a blast.
Um, we also went to, uh, we went to a castle.
We went to Osaka Castle. Right? Mm.
And I had a, I had a weird revelation at the castle.
We're gonna get back to relevant racing stuff in a second. But I had this, yeah,
There's a bit of, there's a bit of Red Bull stuff to tell, but I wanna hear about the castle first.
I wanna get there. The castle was interesting
because like, I'm like, oh sweet.
I love old stuff and I love castles and this is gonna be cool.
I've never seen a Japanese castle.
So you see this big cool structure that's built in like 15 something rather than burned down or rebuilt in 16 something.
Rather, you're like, cool. And you go inside
and it's like nicer than a Marriott.
Like it's, it's, the inside is just a completely like, just completely gutted it and made it a museum, which is great.
But like, it's not an old castle at all.
It's just like a shell of a castle.
And it's a lot less cool than I thought it was gonna be because of that.
But it's like eight flights of stairs in every story is like a floor of the museum.
Right. And it was a weekend
and it's a very popular tourist attraction in Japan.
And it's a very popular time to be in Japan.
'cause it's cherry blossom season and all this stuff.
And, and so like, there's tons of people, man, just like an absolute ton of people.
And so you're going up this really tight staircase and everybody, you know, Japan, like Asian culture, like everybody gets close in a lot of personal space.
And I realized that like when you're walking up a flight of stairs in a public setting like that with a lot of people all jam Together, you're just eye level with <inaudible> Face to butts, man faces to butts all day long.
And I just, I'm so glad that you saw where I was going with that.
I had never really experienced anything like it just so much, so much.
But in the face, walking up a flight of stairs, it's un like stairs are dumb.
I actually, I, it made me kind of dislike stairs.
Well, I mean, okay. That feels like a weird, weird jump.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you didn't
experience what I experienced, Tim. Would
You just like everything to be single story, would you like elevators in everything? All
There are good options, .
So how, where do you stand on escalators further away from a butt?
I guess I stand, I stand on the right.
So that way you can walk on the left. Yeah. Like a grownup.
Um, unless there's a but in front of you, then you stand on the left. Yeah.
'cause I feel like, I feel like if you're on an, if you're on an escalator, you're standing so you can like turn to the side, you know?
Fair. And you're not, you don't to be, you're not working.
You're not like exerting energy, which often makes, you know, and there's like, yeah. I don't know.
So did, did anyone mm-hmm. Like h in your face, ?
No, to my knowledge, I wasn't crop dusted per se, but it was just the proximity man.
I feel like there needs to be like a rule, like a two stair rule buffer between people, just so you're not to face at all times.
Sure, sure, sure, sure. I
Don't know it, look, I've been climbing stairs for 38 years and I've never really had this thought.
So it's, it's obviously like a very circumstantial thing.
I, I've had this thought. Yeah. I've had it a lot.
I knew exactly where you were going.
Yeah. You did. Like, but
Did it occur to you that your butt was also in somebody's face? Becky?
Yeah, it was usually Becky's . Yeah.
See, this is where you, You should've let her Work First.
Well, trust me by the sixth flight I was like, no, no, we're no, we're not doing that.
But then you're the guy then, then, you know, I'm the jerk husband that made her have to do that.
And I, you know, I'm not doing that. I don't know.
I just, it was weird.
So it was weird. What Red Bull. Hold on.
No, hold on. Nevermind.
That reminds me of something that Becky said that was so funny.
We're like looking through the museum, right?
And there's all these like scrolls written in the 1620s and there's these suits of armor that were worn by the whoever's that were, you know, running the castle, all this stuff.
And Becky was just like, she, I forget exactly what she said, but it was along the lines of like, well, that can't be real.
Like, that's not, that's not really a scroll from the 1620.
So I'm like, no, no, yeah, no, that's, that's like a real, it says right there, it's original letter written from X to Y about Zed.
And she's like, no. And
I'm like, yeah, that's suit of armor.
That's, that was worn by some guy, you know, 400 years ago.
And she's like, no, there's no way.
There's no way you can know that.
Like, none of this is real.
Everything in here, we don't know any of this happened.
And it basically, it was just a blanket statement claiming that all history was picked, history was, it was always made up.
It's like we, it's like, we don't know.
There's no way to know that.
There's no way to know that it's not true. We're just making that up.
Don't, don't give her a bible.
wasn't, wasn't worried about her reading that anytime soon.
Don't worry. Mm. But it was with, it was a nice
Hanging out with J Chessen now .
It was just a really funny proclamation that just basically all history is made up.
She's decided. So I support it. There you go.
When's the cutoff though?
Like, when's the point where she's like, all right, well this happened, I don't know when, when were compute, when were, were computers invented.
1989 when she was born. I don't know.
Yeah. . I'll have to ask her what the Yeah.
What the acceptable date is that we started actually knowing what was happening.
Right. I feel like ation like her
Grandpa in Normandy, right.
Like so that she accepted that happened.
I think she's good with that.
Um, look, I think it's pretty well documented how like the Wright Brothers did the whole airplane thing.
So we're going back at least to the, to the early 19 hundreds.
Okay. All right. Anyways. Um, so, all right.
Uh, history, history, history may be wrong, um, and false, but it did repeat itself at Red Bull Racing.
Um, good Segue.
Look at that. You bull. Look at that. Look at that.
Look at that big podcast guy.
Um, Liam Lawson. Gone canned. See ya.
Uh, back to Racing Bulls. Yuki Sonta is promoted.
Or maybe depending on who you talk to, not, um, so I wanna, I wanna, I wanna talk about this.
I don't know if you've, you've seen it.
It, it was an interview.
It was a couple, I think a couple years ago.
And it was like on a Racing Mentalities podcast or something, or Racing Mindset podcast.
And it was Alex Alban being interviewed.
Have you seen this clip, James?
Is this the one about the sensitivity mouse? Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
So I, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you the cliff notes for this.
So basically he, Alex Alban, who was at Red Bull for a year, um, and struggled to, to match Max as it seems everyone does, was asked what it was like to be his teammate.
And Alex was like this whole notion that the car is built around him, while I, I disagree with what he's saying a little bit 'cause he disproves it a little bit later.
But the, the premise is it's not that it's built around him.
The car is what it is.
And Max's driving style is so unique and he, he compared it to, if you play computer games or you use your computer and you turn the mouse sensitivity all the way to the max, and then you use your mouse, and the mouse cursor is just darting around the screen, he equated is that Quite on purpose or Which part?
Obviously not turn it to The turn it to the max.
No, no. Highest level.
Um, he equated, uh, the feeling of a max vapin red bull F1 car to be like the mouse at its highest setting.
And he said the problem with that is in the beginning, um, you know, when the car's fresh for the season and all this sort of thing, you know, you start a couple tents off, but Max, you know, continually pushes the development path and, and all of this sort of thing to make the, the front of the car even sharper and even more aggressive and even even faster and, and higher, more sensitive.
And so then as a driver in the second car, you are, you are getting a little bit more uncomfortable because like, it's such a unique level of, of sharpness that you get a little more uncomfortable and the gap gets a little bigger.
And then you try and push a little bit more to close that gap and you crash or you spin or you have an off and then, and then you're behind.
So your confidence has gone a little bit and, and the gap's grown a little bit bigger.
And so then you, you try and, and, and close that gap again and, and it happens again.
Or your just confidence drops another step.
You don't crash, but it's, it, you just get more tense, more tense.
And it's the snowball effect that happens throughout the year to where you started two and a half tenths off, three tenths off, you're now a second off, and now there's all these doubts within the team, within the media and within the sport that like, you can't do it and, and all this sort of thing.
And none of that is necessarily a representation of the driver in the second car.
It's just that what Max wants and what Max is successful with and what Max is able to make work is so specific and unique to him that there hasn't been another driver that has touched it.
And people are like, oh, well Daniel, blah blah blah, Daniel this, Daniel that.
I don't think Max was at his level or at his understanding of what he needed and wanted When Daniel was in that car, max was still very new to the sport, relatively, um, and hadn't evolved into the driver that he is now.
You know, you, there was a quote from his engineer last year where it was in the middle of the year, um, and he was like, max is just scratching the surface of like what his capability is.
And he, he is growing every single month that I work with him.
And so I I believe that if Daniel were to get into the Red Bull now, it wouldn't just be plug and play back to five, six years ago.
18. Yeah. Where he'd be matching max
and winning a couple races and this sort of thing.
So my point with this is, um, Liam Lawson is not a bad driver.
Um, and, and I was having this conversation with a buddy of mine at lunch yesterday, and he was like, well, you thought Sergio was wa And my response to that was, yes, do I think Sergio as a, as a, as a race car driver sucked?
No. What I think what was disappointing
for me about Sergio was there was a period of time two years ago, two and a half years ago, where he was winning races on street courses and on pole.
And no, he wasn't at Max's level, but he was, he was doing a very good job.
He had adapted himself.
He Max's peak in Max's Prime and the re bull was what it was.
And, and he was, he was doing the job.
And then that slowly started to separate.
And I think that was more the comment of, um, really everyone, and it's also why Sergio got so much extra time, if you will, struggling because they were like, all right, listen, 18 months ago you were on Pole and you won Baku back to back and, and you were, you were the guy.
So like, you clearly have it in you.
So what do we need to give you to get you back to that point?
Because we believe you are a guy that can match Max and you can drive this car.
Anyways, it didn't happen.
What has happened is another driver's career has been severely affected by Red Bull slash Max Sapp and not anything of Max's doing, but just going up against him as his teammate.
So I'm very curious, James, in your role and in your role as, as a presenter for F1 tv, but also as a driver.
Like what, what do you take of this and are you concerned for Yuki?
There's so many things to consider in this. Um, okay.
So I think I'm in the majority of thinking that it seems too soon to make the change.
I see Red Bulls do.
Lemme just, sorry. Do you not think the gap was
just far too big?
Uh, honestly, like wouldn't you prefer them to make this early?
It's not like he was 12th like he was last, Right?
Yes. That's fair. Wouldn't
You rather rip the bandaid off now?
So my, my I my initial gut feeling was it's too early.
He's going to a track that he knows he should at least have one more weekend, right?
But then I read an article that was an interview with, with Helt Marco who, you know, look, that guy has some, some soundbites sometimes that you're just kind of like, wow, all right, that's, that's what we're going with.
But everything he said, there was a logic to it that it was hard to fault, right?
So the number one on the, 'cause a lot of people are saying, oh, well he's, he's, he knows Suzuka, he'll be good there.
Like let's give him that chance.
His, his rebuttal was, well, Isaac Haja had never seen Chyna and he was only a 10th off Yuki in qualifying learning a track.
These guys are pros learning a track's not the issue.
You know what's a great point?
That's a a hundred percent correct. I agree with that point.
Um, and he said, look, we need, we want Max to win this championship.
To do that we have to make the car better.
So we need someone that has more experience in developing Formula one cars than somebody with 11 races under the belt, 12 races under the belt, whatever.
It's, and you know what, I get that too tho.
Those are actually two really good points.
So while from the outside it looks unduly harsh to, to pull 'em out that early.
When you, when you look at how they got to that decision because of what their end goal was, I think what it really shows you though is that they are looking a lot more at the here and now and not at the long term, right?
It was not, alright, well how do we just give Liam what he needs, ingratiate him into the team, see what his feedback's like, whatever, whatever, whatever.
And we'll end up where we end up this year, but hopefully next year it can be a stronger package.
It's no, no, we have to win Max's fifth driver's championship, which Marco said was above Red Bull winning the Constructors championship.
So it wasn't even about necessarily the other car being in the points all the time, although obviously that's what needs to happen.
It was more about the development of the car to make sure Max has a tool that he can go in the drivers.
So when you look at the reasoning behind the decision, it's is it, is it harsh?
Is it cruel? Is it all those things? Maybe.
But the logic is there.
And so I that's, that's what I look for in those kinds of decisions and, and I do see it.
Hmm. Um, it'll be interesting to see
how the racing bulls compare to the Red Bulls when we get to Suzuka.
So to your second question, what am am I worried for Suki?
Yes. I'm very worried for you, Keith. What
Do you think happens hypothetically and I, I mean I don't wish Ill on anyone, but I hope this happens.
'cause I'm so curious to see what they do if Lawson out qualifies Yuki, Do you wanna know what, like in a, in a weird twisted, alternate universe, I think happens They put Max in a racing bowl, They put max in a racing pole because if the car is that much better or at least that much more drivable.
Becau But here's the thing, right?
You go back to, I, I've only been two races, I think in, in Australia, max was a 10th and a half off pole.
Or maybe that was even in China, it was like 0.17 or something.
So like over a lap, the car's got some pretty serious pace, right?
So you have to believe that max in a, in an RRB is going to be at least three tenths quicker than Yuki on pure single lap pace.
Yes, Maybe it's possible.
Like if that car's got a bigger window and it's easier to find that limit, Yuki might be closer to that limit and he might not have three tenths on him, so he is not gonna qualify as high, right?
So that's still a risk, but man, it would be, how cool would that be?
That would be the story . That would be the story like ugly.
Well the, then the question is like how, how important is, how important is all of this to Red Bull versus how important is Max's success to the people who are in charge of Red Bull racing?
Because if I, if I'm Red Bull corporate right?
In Austria, there's no way that I would ever allow my superstar to get outta my car purely from the marketing aspect of it.
Even though it's it's still a Red Bull car kind of, it's not, yeah.
Right. People don't, people don't make that connection.
Like if you think about it, you make the connection, but you don't look at it and make that connection.
So, so while Marco and Horner even might be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that's that's what you gotta do.
I'm very curious if if Austria would be like, yeah, go for it.
And that's, that's the, that's the question, right? Yeah.
I mean Max is so ubiquitous with Red Bull that him winning in a Red Bull affiliated car, is that enough?
Okay. Right. Like do they, do they care? I don't know.
I mean it's um, when you're, when you're dealing with the sport at that level, the money involved, the sponsor contracts, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of other secondary and tertiary sponsors on that car for That have Max, Right? Yeah.
I mean, yeah, that's a primary, I mean, it'd be Silly tag tag.
Hoyer definitely has Max.
Yeah. So Yeah. Right. I don't know.
So that, that's probably, probably not possible.
Probably not possible, but man, it would be super cool to see.
So let's call it right now.
Do you think Liam Lawson outs Yuki Sonsona at Suzuka?
No. I still also say no, I
Just, but it's fun to talk about.
I don't, I don't know, I don't know that I, I don't know that I rate Liam that high.
Like I think Yuki is, is a really, really good race car driver.
Like he's a great race car driver and I think he will, especially with the motivation of being at home, um, he's tested the elbow before how like it's, he's gonna, he's gonna perform, Perform, how Is this set up?
He's gonna perform like this setup is awesome. It's amazing.
It's a dream. It's a dream come true for him.
And I think he's gonna rise to the occasion and I think he's gonna be there thereabouts.
Um, so yeah, It's gonna be like, it's gonna be like, like, like check out with Mexico.
I feel like every lap of practice, the whole front strait's just gonna erupt every time he goes by.
Mm. You know, in that car, it's, uh,
I'm, I'm, I'm stoked man.
Like, I'm, I'm super excited that I get be there to see that because I, I would be very interested to know what, um, because obviously Yuki was in consideration like it was between him and Liam, um, for the Red Bull seat this year in 25, I'd be very curious to know, because all, all everyone points to is like Yuki's test in Abu Dhabi went really well.
Like he was very good. All of this sort of thing.
So I wonder what the, the, the moving, what moved the needle in Liam's favor, um, because Yuki had the experience, he has the connection with Honda in Japan.
Like he was good in the test.
Like he was part of the program.
Like why, why did he not get the nod in the first place?
This is the one thing that's kind of bothered me from the beginning, right?
Is I I was Team Yuki to get that ride in the first place and the team clearly, and, and, and I I I remember saying this, I dunno if it was on the show or not, but I remember saying Red Bull must know something that we don't, Correct.
Right. Yeah. It was on the show. Yeah.
Yeah. So whether it's something in his data,
whether it's something in his debriefs, whether it just, just something, whether it's his, his hot temper or whatever, you know, fitness, what something it was something they knew that we didn't, what I don't like now is how much of a 180 they've done.
Mm. And and I I I respect that they're saying, Hey,
we're trying to actually protect Liam by moving him back to the racing bull by Well, it's not Like they fired him.
Correct. And, and I agree like this, another weekend like
that, that starts a downward spiral.
It's hard to come back from, he could potentially be competitive in the rrb.
So I do believe that.
But to go to like, Hey, we're passing up this guy we've had in our stable for four years for this guy we've had on the car, in the car for four months who's Never, who's never been out qualified by a teammate including Liam.
Right. And now it's, oh, well,
you's a completely different guy.
I'm like, guys, we're two races in, right? Mm-hmm .
Has he performed well in those two races? Yes, he has.
But like, two's a coincidence, three's a trend.
We haven't even had three races to say that there's an upward trend in his 2025 season.
Now I fully believe that he, he is doing a great job and will continue to do a great job, but like there was no reason to think that he wouldn't do that at the end of last year.
'cause the second half of last year he was killing it too.
So I, there's a little bit of this like, oh no, you, we've always loved Yuki and now this is the great opportunity for him.
It's like, no, hang on a second.
You guys had this chance and you <inaudible> up the first time.
Yeah. So like, let's not pat
ourselves in the back too much here.
Mm. Oh, we're protecting Lawson
and we're giving Yuki this chance.
He's always deserved. It's like, hang on.
I I I just want one time them to be like, yeah, we screwed that up. We shouldn't have done that. Right.
Yeah, that seems just, I wanna, that seems like a super, that seems like a super formula One approach to have.
Yeah. Fair . Um, anyways, uh, Tim,
it looks like we're keeping you up.
You look very uninterested and tired, so why don't you get back to bed?
Their bed their pal.
Like, that was my plan. Let keep you up.
Did you, did you have a big night last night, Timbo?
Uh, no, but it's, you know, getting up at 5 45 on a Sunday and fun.
I mean, getting up at 5 45 is on a Sunday is no different than a Tuesday.
I was just gonna say, I don't really care what day of the week it is.
It's not, it's not that fun to do it on a Tuesday either.
But don't quantify it like a Sunday.
Like, there's no sympathy. I'm
Gonna complain how I want to complain .
That's fair. You have that right.
Well look, let's do it next week and see how our predictions go, because you and I both predicted that.
Okay. Wait, we broke. Predicted each. You
Mean we're gonna do a podcast next week? Okay. Yeah.
Are we not gonna do a Podcast next week?
No, but you No, but you were like, oh, let's do it this again next week and see it's like, oh yeah, yeah.
Like we weren't gonna, yeah. Okay.
But wait, is Liam gonna out qualify Haja?
No, I'm gonna also say no.
I'm gonna also say no. All right guys, we need to
Disagree on Something.
your sweater's cool. Dammit.
No, that's not right. Oh, man, I
Don't know. It's Marco's.
Oh, . That's, That's
A choice.
I love it. I love it. Bye guys.
This has been off track with Hinch and Rossi.
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