An autonomous vehicle is a car that can drive itself using technology. Instead of a person steering and accelerating the whole time, the car handles the driving tasks.
It means a person who makes money doing short, app-based jobs instead of a regular full-time job. For cars, that’s often ride-hailing or delivery work.
Ride sharing here refers to app-based transportation services where passengers request rides and a driver provides the trip. It’s used as the human-driven baseline that autonomous vehicles are expected to compete with or replace in some use cases.
Lyft is another rideshare app, like Uber, where you request a ride from a nearby driver. The speaker is saying they drove for both apps to make more money.
“Ride share” means using an app to request rides from regular drivers. The speaker is talking about how they made money by driving at the right times and places.
The Lincoln Town Car is a big, comfortable luxury car. It’s the kind of car people associate with a chauffeur or “nice ride,” which is why it likely stood out when the speaker first tried Uber.
A 2004 Lexus RX is a comfortable, family-friendly luxury SUV. The speaker is saying they used their mom’s RX because it was a nice, practical car for driving passengers.
The Prius is a hybrid car that many rideshare drivers choose. The speaker says you see a lot of them because rideshare driving racks up a ton of miles.
TCP stands for charter carrier permit, a type of livery/for-hire vehicle license. The speaker says Uber Black drivers need this permit, which is part of why Uber Black has more formal requirements than everyday rideshare.
A background check is a review of your records—like driving history and sometimes criminal history—before you’re allowed to do certain jobs. For rideshare, it helps the company decide if you’re safe to drive strangers around.
Term
insurance reasons
Insurance companies charge more when they think someone is more likely to crash. So rideshare rules can require drivers to be older to make insurance cheaper and easier to provide.
Rental car companies rent cars and also track which drivers tend to get into accidents. When they mention an age cutoff, it’s usually based on their experience with claims and risk.
An e-bike is a regular bike with a battery-powered motor that helps you pedal. It can be used for deliveries without driving a car, which can change what insurance and rules apply.
DSPs are delivery partner companies that Amazon hires to do some of the deliveries. That matters because it can affect who employs the drivers and what insurance coverage applies.
Company
on track, Dynamics
They’re naming a specific delivery partner company. The main idea is that Amazon often uses outside companies to deliver packages.
Maintenance is the regular work needed to keep a vehicle running—like fixing things before they break. The point here is that it’s usually less frequent than buying gas.
The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is a high-end luxury car. The point is that using a car like that for delivery is usually costly because it tends to cost more to maintain and fuel than cheaper cars.
Gas prices are what you pay for gasoline. If they go up a lot, car-based drivers spend more money every week, which cuts into what they earn.
Term
oil chain
This sounds like it means an oil change. Oil service is something you have to do periodically to keep the vehicle healthy, but you don’t do it every day like refueling.
Tires wear down over time. If you drive a lot for work, you’ll likely need new tires eventually, which adds cost even if it’s not as frequent as buying gas.
They’re basically saying drivers adjust which rides they take. If gas gets expensive, longer rides can cost too much, so drivers look for shorter trips that pay better for the distance.
Here, mileage just means how many miles you drive. Driving more miles can cost more money in gas and wear, so drivers try to pick trips that make those miles worth it.
It means the price isn’t fixed—fares can jump around. Sometimes the same kind of ride costs more or pays more depending on when and where you request it.
They’re saying that after a driver completes about 500 trips, their pay tends to get better. The idea is that the app may start routing them more effectively or they become more efficient.
It means a driver selectively accepts the best ride requests. The goal is to avoid slow or inconvenient trips and keep the car moving toward better-paying rides.
“Autonomous tech” is the set of tools that lets a car drive itself. It includes sensors that notice the road and software that decides what to do next.
Brand
Tesla's doing RoboTaxi
Tesla is working on the idea of robotaxis—cars that can drive themselves for rides. What it can do in practice depends on the software version and local rules.
Aerodynamics is how smoothly air moves around the car. If you open the windows, the air gets messier and the car has to work harder to keep going, so you can end up using more energy.
Concept
safety data
Safety data is information that tries to show how safe something is—like how often crashes happen. The hosts use it to compare robotaxis versus human drivers.
“AV’s Behaving Badly” is a recurring newsletter feature the host mentions. It’s basically where they talk about self-driving incidents that went wrong.
For self-driving cars, “edge cases” are weird, uncommon situations that don’t happen often. The speaker is saying these are the moments where driverless systems can struggle or behave unexpectedly.
Miles per hour (mph) is just a way to measure speed. The speaker is comparing how fast a human might have been going versus how slowly the car went in that moment.
This sounds like a human help team for driverless cars. When the car gets confused or stuck, it can call for instructions instead of trying to solve it by itself.
Robotaxis are self-driving taxi cars that pick up passengers without a human driver. The discussion is about when they might start replacing some rideshare trips.
Concept
day-to-day operations
This means what happens in the business every day. The host is saying self-driving tech may get lots of attention first, but it won’t instantly change how rideshare works day-to-day.
The Tesla Model Y is an electric crossover. The host mentions it because they had Tesla’s self-driving features on it and compares that experience to other robotaxi efforts.
The Tesla Model 3 is an electric car. The host brings it up because they owned one for years and it shaped what they think about Tesla’s self-driving features.
Car
Rivian
Rivian makes electric vehicles. The host says they switched from a Tesla to a Rivian and feels Rivian’s self-driving is at a similar stage to Tesla’s older system.
This means the car tries to drive more on its own, but you still have to watch and be ready to take over. The host says they miss having that kind of hands-on supervision.
Hardware is the car’s physical tech, and software is the programs that run on it. The host is saying their Tesla didn’t have the newest versions, so they may not have gotten the best self-driving behavior.
Autonomy day is an event where a company shows off its self-driving technology. The host says they went and got to ride in a vehicle to see how it drives.
This is about how much you’re allowed to look away while the car drives. The host says it’s not fully hands-free all the time—you still have to pay attention when the system asks.
San Francisco is a city in California. It’s also one of the places where self-driving taxi tests have happened, so the host’s ride there is a real-world example.
This means the car is trying to drive using mostly cameras for its “eyes.” The host is pointing out that Tesla’s approach leans heavily on cameras instead of other sensors.
LiDAR is a laser-based sensor that makes a 3D picture of what’s around the car. It helps the vehicle “see” distances and shapes so it can drive more safely.
Company
Morpheus
Morpheus is the name Hyundai gives to its rideshare/self-driving project. The host is saying Hyundai isn’t just building for others—it has its own plan too.
Zoox is a self-driving taxi company mentioned as being near launch in San Francisco. The host points out that the car setup (like not having a steering wheel) changes how the company can test and handle issues.
Level 5 autonomy means the car can drive by itself completely, without needing a person to take over. The goal is that it can handle driving tasks on its own in the area it’s designed for.
Level 4 autonomy means the car can drive itself in certain places or situations. If it goes outside those limits, it may not be able to handle it the same way.
Car
Google Firefly
Google Firefly was an early self-driving “pod” vehicle. Think of it like a small, driverless shuttle that was built to move people around without a human driver.
A “pod car” is a small shuttle-like vehicle, often designed to feel like a little capsule. In robotaxi discussions, it usually means a compact ride meant for a few passengers.
“Form factor” means what the vehicle looks like and how it’s built. Here, the host is saying the robotaxi’s design details—like doors and seating—affect how people use it.
“Carriage doors” are a special kind of door design that opens in a more “carriage-like” way. The host is saying this kind of door can make getting in and out easier without someone helping.
A “first mover” advantage means the first company to get something working well can build momentum. The host is saying being first helps Waymo get customers and operations running.
A plug is the connector you use to charge an electric car. The host is saying some plug standards are better than others, and that only recently became clear to everyone.
Term
ultrasonic cameras
Ultrasonic sensors are like a car’s “sound radar.” They help detect nearby objects, especially at short distances.
Term
paid driverless rides
“Paid driverless rides” refers to autonomous robotaxi service where customers pay for trips without a human driver actively controlling the car. The speaker uses it as a practical benchmark for when self-driving is truly ready for real-world deployment.
This is about legal responsibility and safety risk. If a self-driving car causes a serious accident, the company providing the service can be held responsible.
MSRP is the official sticker price the manufacturer lists for a car. It’s used here to say the I-Pace is expensive, so the back seat should feel better.
Term
lower-cost EVs
“Lower-cost EVs” means electric cars that are cheaper to buy. The speaker thinks this is where the market is going.
Radar is a sensor that uses radio waves to detect objects around the car. It’s especially good at noticing how fast things are moving and works in conditions like rain or fog.
“Level two” means the car can help drive, but you still have to watch the road and be ready to grab control right away. It’s not fully hands-off automation.
Mulholland is a famous winding road area in Los Angeles. It’s the sort of road where driving assistance has to handle lots of curves and changing views.
“Level 3” means the car can do a lot of the driving, but it may still ask the driver to take over. The driver has to be ready to respond when the car says it needs help.
Term
cybercaps
“Cybercaps” sounds like it’s meant to be “Cybercab,” which is Tesla’s idea for a driverless taxi. The whole point is that the car would drive itself instead of needing a human behind the wheel.
“SAE” is an organization that created a common scale for how “automated” cars are. The scale explains whether the driver must keep watching or whether the car can handle things by itself.
This is a California government agency that sets rules for certain transportation services. In this discussion, it’s mentioned because it helps determine whether robotaxi services are allowed to operate. If the agency doesn’t approve the right permission, the service may not be operating under the correct rules.
A robotaxi permit is official permission from the government to run self-driving ride services. It’s not just a tech thing—rules decide where and how these cars can operate. If a company doesn’t have the right permit, they may not be allowed to run robotaxis the way they claim.
Term
trip data
“Trip data” just means the information a service keeps about each ride—like where it went and when. People look at it to see how the service is growing and whether it follows the rules.
Term
OHIs
“OHIs” sounds like a short label for a particular kind of robotaxi vehicle or fleet category. The speaker mentions it like it’s important, but they don’t explain what the letters mean in this clip.
They’re saying the self-driving system isn’t fully ready yet. The car might be able to drive, but the company hasn’t finished all the safety and behavior features for normal customer service.
They’re talking about the robotaxi using lots of cameras around the car. More camera coverage helps the car “see” what’s happening in traffic so it can drive more safely.
In autonomous-vehicle discussions, an “operating domain” is the specific set of conditions where the system is designed to work well—like certain areas, traffic patterns, and road types. The host argues Waymo’s domain is strong for early adopters, but everyday riders may not tolerate gaps in availability or longer waits.
LIVE
Hi there. Welcome to the inevitable. This is Motor Trends podcast, our podcast about
the future of the car, the future of mobility. Where are we going? How are we going to get there?
And are we going to be taken there by a gig economy driver or by an autonomous vehicle?
I'm saying this because today we're joined by an expert on both. But before we get to a guy
named Harry, Ed has a message for you. The inevitable broadcast still not sponsored by anybody.
Give us a shout out if you're interested, edward.lohh.com or slide into our DMs. And yes,
we have the ride share guy on. That is not some sort of weird nickname. That is literally the
guy's business. His name is Harry Campbell. He is the founder of the ride share guy, the website,
the YouTube channel, the social media accounts. He also does the driverless digest, which is
basically 180 degrees from ride sharing. It's all about the future of autonomous vehicles.
Super interesting guy, very interesting background and a lot of very interesting information
about the state of the gig economy from the driver and delivery side. Also very interesting
insights on the autonomous vehicle side. So without further ado. Yeah, let's meet Harry.
Let's meet Harry. Welcome to the inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.
Harry Campbell. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
The ride share guy and also now doing the driverless digest, which is a sub-stack.
Yeah, and I got to workshop the new name. I'm considering changing it to the driverless guy
to stay on brand. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Still going strong.
Just the driverless. So let's talk about that. We want to talk about sort of the future of
everything you've been covering for the last decade or so and then going forward.
But first of all, how did you get into this space? I think your background is you were,
you're an engineer by training? I am an engineer by training. I guess I would say I'm a retired
engineer. I used to be an aerospace engineer for Boeing. So that was my last career.
What was the last plane you worked on? The last plane I worked on was, I don't know if it's accurate,
but it was probably the 757. I worked on this project. I think it was called something to do
with Scripline. So back in the 80s, they used to use metal tools to get all of the decals off
of airplanes. And they were supposed to use plastic tools so it didn't make any scratches.
And over time, those scratches would turn into larger and larger cracks over lots of cycling.
Sure. And so all these planes from the 80s, they realized in the 2000s, they had major issues.
And so people like me had to go back and analyze every plane to make sure they didn't fall out
of the sky. So I use my engineering degree every day. No, just kidding. I do the opposite
now running several media properties. Cool. Okay. So you have an aerospace degree from
UC San Diego. Yep. Are you a California native? I am. I actually just grew up right down the
street in Marvista and went to San Monica High School. Oh, very cool. No kidding. All right, cool.
And then how long did you work? We're also... Yeah, sort of. I should work on this.
Both grew up in Southern California. How long did you work at Boeing in El Segundo?
I was in Seal Beach. Oh, nice. So I worked at Boeing Seal Beach. I worked for another company
called Goodrich Aerostructures down in San Diego that got bought by United Technologies.
So, you know, have that kind of that engineering background. And honestly, too, that's actually,
I feel like with a lot of the coverage that I do of the industry, it kind of has that engineering
lens. You know, I'm looking at, you know, crunching numbers or looking at utilization or trying to
kind of come up with that angle. And I feel like when people find out I'm an engineer, it kind of,
oh, that makes sense. So, where would you get the idea to start Right Share, or the Right Share
guy? So, I actually, I was living in Newport Beach at the time and it was right when people were
just starting to take Uber and Lyft. They're just hearing about it, you know, over a decade ago.
And I actually talked to a driver who was telling me, oh, I'm just getting paid right now, $24 an
hour from Lyft just to sit here. They were kind of trying to seed the market with new drivers. So,
my ears kind of lit up. Oh, free money for doing nothing. By the time I signed up, of course,
that promotion was over. Sure. But I started driving for Lyft and then I met a guy.
For fun? Just for fun, yeah. So, I was an aerospace engineer and honestly, I remember,
I got a lot of funny looks from coworkers and other people that, you know, I've got this career as
an aerospace structural engineer and I'm driving for Uber and Lyft on the side, but I was actually
making quite good money. I was driving, you know, the busiest times, the busiest places, July Fourth
and making $50 to $60 to $70 an hour early on. What attracted you to be a driver? Like,
again, like most people, like, I have a career. I imagine an aerospace engineer makes more than
$24 an hour. Like, what was... Well, I was making $50. I think I actually, on an hourly basis,
I think I actually was making more as an Uber driver. You know, it's very limited hours, right?
And because of the strategies I was doing. And, you know, that's kind of really what I've built
the ride share guy business on is the fact that, you know, the average is the average, right? It
really is. There's a lot of variability and it is easy to outperform. You can, if you know, when
you're driving, where you're driving, if you try new services and try new places. And I guess that
has always been my personality, even though I went down this pretty straight and narrow path as an
engineer. I was always looking for other opportunities. I was starting a bunch of websites and the
personal finance, so I did a lot of early blogging, I guess you would call it. I was actually even a
freelance writer at one point. I wasn't making a lot of money, but, you know, I was doing it on
real estate and I was very into credit card points. The ride share guy, for anyone who's a fan of the
points guy, basically took that name and replaced points with ride share and have tried to emulate
that business. So, yeah, that was kind of how I got my early start. And what were you going to ask?
Because I remember back the first time I took an Uber was actually in San Francisco. Like,
the week it started, it happened to be up there. And it was a, you know, a Lincoln town car. And I
remember I was like, well, this is really nice. And then eventually it just became a never-ending
series of Prius Cs that were miserable. But what were you driving when the first time you started?
I had a pretty nice car at the time. Well, it was older, but it was a 2004 Lexus RX that my mom had
owned. So it was totally a mom car. But I mean, Lexus, as you guys know, pretty nice car, good
great bang for the bus. Especially for an Uber. Yeah, kind of, you know, so sort of early on,
you know, people would kind of get in and my mom had obviously taken great care of the car. So it
probably seemed a lot newer than it was. And yeah, so it was a great car. And, you know, I wasn't
driving a ton of hours. You see a lot of Prius and high mileage, you know, Asian-made cars these
days. Because I mean, a full-time ride share driver in Los Angeles, not a lot of people realize,
they'll put a thousand miles on your car per week. So you really rack up the miles. I mean,
driving 40 to 50 hours a week, you know, maybe not a shocker when you do the math. But yeah,
that was the car that I was using. Lexus RX, were you, was it an Uber Black?
It was back before, well, so they had Uber Black, but Uber Black, you technically need a special
license called a TCP. It's like a charter carrier permit. It's a livery license, basically. And
you also need commercial insurance. So Uber obviously, and Lyft became famous from letting,
you know, everyday people like me drive with their own personal car. So that was, I believe,
an UberX vehicle. Once they launched, you know, I think they called it Uber Premier a few years
into it, sort of like nicer cars. And now, you know, obviously, when you open the Uber app,
they have every option under the sun. So yeah, it was older, but it did, I think,
grandfather into some of the Premier categories. Got it. Okay, so you, yes, I was looking at your
resume at LinkedIn. You've done a ton of stuff since being an engineer, an aerospace engineer,
you've done a bunch in the financial space, you did the tech writing, you, you know,
you worked for Forbes. Contributed a few articles, yeah, didn't make much money, but
a lot of them will mill the space. And then, but when did you found the site, the rideshare guy?
So the rideshare guy, I founded it in 2014. So I sort of round down, just call it a decade,
but you know, it's been over 10 years. And I started with the website. I started writing
couple articles a week, had a couple friends that were driving for Uber and Lyft, and they started
contributing a couple articles a week, started the YouTube channel. And some of my early YouTube
videos, I mean, we're up to a couple 100000 subscribers now. So it's no motor trend,
but you know, reaches probably a million people a month. And, you know, my early videos are basically
just me kind of sitting in a chair like this, talking about driving for Uber and Lyft, not a lot
of production value, but I think good information. And I think just really consistent. I mean,
we've been publishing at least four articles a week, three to five videos a week, one podcast
every week for three to five videos a week. These are not, you know, like I said, they're often like
I would call it lower production. You know, I mean, now we do, you know, we do a weekly live
show with two of my contributors, Chris and Sergio, they do a great job. And we pull, you know,
excerpts of that. And I guess I would call those a video, but we also have contributors who do
videos. So we're public, I mean, we're publishing a lot of content. We've been around for a while.
And I kind of like the joke that if you ever Google anything related to Uber and Lyft driving or
DoorDash delivery on the internet, we'll probably pop up. I think we have a video right now that we
did with CBS LA about, you know, people stealing accounts to drive and deliver. And I think it's
gotten close to a million views in the past week. So yeah, a lot of people have been sending me that
lately, a controversial topic in the right chair space.
Quick, what's happening? That sounds really fascinating. So on delivery services, I don't
have the person in the picture. You know, they leave it at the doorstep. So there's not a lot
of customer interaction these days. But if you actually kind of sit there and look, it's not
often, I would say, I would say maybe 20 to 30% of the time, it's not the person actually in the
picture. And sometimes it's just people actually like to deliver as a team. They like to deliver with
a friend, a spouse, family member, you know, it's actually, I interviewed someone back in the day
who did rideshare as a team. Now this was definitely against Uber's terms of service, but
I interviewed them and they made it quite far before they, I think they did a few hundred rides
before they got deactivated. It was like a husband and wife retired couple. And so the more nefarious
version of this is basically, because there's no customer interaction, people are just dropping
things off at the door. Imagine you come to the country, you're not legal to work,
it's very easy to buy someone's account for 100, 200, 300 bucks. And then you often deliver,
you make that money, you pay them the cut. And so I think there's kind of this underground,
not even that underground, you probably go on Facebook marketplace and you can find these
accounts pretty easily. And so when people do cover this issue, you know, it kind of elicits a
lot of strong opinions. So that established driver essentially renting out their identity?
So there's that, but more often than not, you know how you get an email every week where your
account or your social security has been, you know, given up by some random company. So what people
do is, you know, they get all those socials, they get, you know, let's say a thousand socials,
and then they've got Harry Campbell social, they'll actually make a fake ID with Harry Campbell's
name, but put that actual picture. So it's, and then, you know, you just submit it online. So
it's actually quite not easy, but you know, it's a few hundred dollar kind of operation.
Uber and Lyft and Door Dads are not going out of their way trying to prevent this fraud.
So I think to Uber and Lyft's credit, I think they do have a lot at stake because imagine
if there's an accident and now there's multimillion dollars of liability at stake, and it's seen that
they're, you know, allowing this practice to happen, then I think they're at big risk. So Uber
and Lyft, it's a lot tougher. You get into the car. So I meant maybe Uber Eads and Door Dads.
So delivery services, that's where, you know, I think it's kind of a little easier to sweep
under the rug. You know, you think about the incentives, and this is something that's interesting
in the gig work industry. The incentives for drivers are quite different than the companies,
right? I kind of want as few drivers, as few as delivery people out on the roads so that I get
paid as much as possible. I get surge pricing to go do those trips. I'm never going to see you
again. I don't care if you wait or have to pay 5X to normal. The companies want the opposite of that,
right? They want a little bit more supply than demand at all times. You can imagine this situation
where it's very low risk. I mean, you know, what are you going to, you know, you are a driver,
a delivery person, you pick up the order, you drop it off. Most people don't do contact lists
right now. No, of course. And so you never even see them. And so it's really not a huge issue.
And as a consumer, I could care less the face of the person who's dropping off my food. I just want
some consumers do care. But I think for the most part, I don't know that it's split. I haven't
done a survey on it, but I'd say maybe a majority are sort of more of that opinion. I don't want to
talk to you anyways. Don't ring my doorbell. We've got to doorstep and get out of here. That's what we
do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is fascinating. So I can go so many directions. But
all right, well, let me just ask. What were the questions? Like, why did you start
the rideshare guy back in the day? And what was the burning question you were trying to answer?
I would say the burning question is really how do I make more money? And I don't know that this is
even specific to rideshare and gig economy. I think everyone likes money. They want to make
more money. You want to do what you do, the same job you do every day. And if you could get paid
10%, 50%, 100% more, I think most people would take it. So I don't know that it's exclusive to
this industry. But definitely, that's sort of how I came at it, you know, with my engineering
brain. Okay, how many hours am I working? What's my utilization? How long am I waiting for passengers?
You know, simple things like, hey, you know, I realized driving for Uber and Lyft sounds kind
of simple in the future. You drivers are actually allowed to do both. So if I sit there and have
both apps on, and I see that Ed is, you know, five minutes away, and Johnny is 10 minutes away,
I'm going to take the five minutes away passenger because I am that's unpaid time.
So I get to Ed in five minutes. And now I can start the trip, get that trip sooner.
But what if he's five minutes away, but he's only going two miles, and it's only going to
make me $10, right? What if Johnny is going 20, you know, a $20 ride, then you start to think
about those different things. So that's kind of where I would say a lot of my focus has been.
And you know, and then at the same time, you know, I think it's always,
there's not a huge community out there, you know, when you start a normal job,
you've got someone you can talk to, ask questions, you don't read the employee manual.
So you just ask your colleague or your co-worker, all of these Uber and Lyft drivers and delivery
drivers, you know, this industry didn't exist back in the day.
Independent contractors as well.
Independent contractors, legally, they're not really allowed to train you. And so you have
a lot of drivers trying to figure it out. And, you know, so we've tried to bend that resource
when it comes to content, how to make more money, how to deal with, you know, every
situation under the sun.
And so you're mostly folk, and forgive me for not being that familiar with what you do,
because I just never, the only time I think about Lyft.
Well, I'm surprised you've never done a segment, driving for Uber and Lyft.
I think we might have to get you in there.
You know, we were late, we were going to do one, like when that first came out,
everybody got like a Rolls Royce, and they did like a weekend being a Lyft driver.
Driving Tesla on Uber and Lyft for a weekend.
And then by the time we said, yeah, we should do that, all the companies were like, it's been done,
you know, so.
But we'll brainstorm a few angles. I got some creative stuff.
I don't know if I really want to be an Uber or Lyft driver. However, my point was,
your audience, or your intended audience when you started, it was for other
gig drivers. It wasn't for the passengers.
Yeah, so I would say we started it. It's primarily for gig drivers, anyone working.
And, you know, now we reach, you know, probably over a million people a month on all of our
rideshare guy media properties, you know, social media and all that stuff.
And I would say that, you know, 90% of our audience are people driving and delivering.
And the other 10% are probably more of what I call industry observers, you know,
media people working at the companies can't tell you how many people I've met at,
you know, more of like an industry conference.
So I listen to this podcast or, you know, a lot of your content was so helpful.
And I was like, man, can I send you an invoice or something because, you know,
we do it for the drivers for free because they don't make a lot of money.
The companies I would prefer to charge for this information, but haven't figured out that business.
Well, I was going to ask you, so how do you, how do you monetize?
Do you have a pretty good reach in this specific industry?
Do you get advertising?
Yeah, yeah, we have made a lot of money off of advertising.
I mean, early on, it was actually quite unique.
We started building a following.
And I mean, probably within nine months, I actually quit my day job, you know,
working for Boeing in order to do the site full-time.
And I wasn't making a full-time income yet, but, you know, we're bringing in thousands of dollars,
tens of thousands of dollars a year.
And the reason why I did it was because Uber on Lyft.
I mean, if you remember at the time, every few months they're raising billions of dollars,
they were hiring drivers like crazy.
I actually signed up, so I started with Lyft as a driver.
I signed up to be an Uber driver with a recruiter, an Uber recruiter
in the parking lot of Boeing Seal Beach.
I don't know if anyone from Boeing actually knows this, but they came and met me there.
They handed me an iPhone and as soon as I went on the way home, I did one trip on Uber
and I instantly got a notification that I made $500.
So they were paying $500 double-sided referral bonuses early on in the top markets,
like LA in San Francisco.
So we started monetizing pretty quickly.
You can imagine I've got a site for drivers talking about how much money you can make
attract someone who wants to be a driver.
So we monetized a lot off of driver referrals the first three to five years for all the different
companies.
And now it's more of a straightforward media business.
You know, we obviously make revenue from YouTube ads.
We make revenue from programmatic ads on the website.
And then most of our revenue comes from, I would say, direct advertising, so newsletter ads.
Company has Ford, for example.
They've got Ford Drive.
They want to rent vehicles to Uber and Lyft drivers.
They come to us.
We advertise them in the newsletter.
We'll do a sponsored article.
I'll do a sponsored video.
If they pay me a lot of money, I'll go down to their office and interview someone or tour
the facilities and things like that.
We do a lot of behind the scenes consulting type work.
So companies that are looking to launch products and services.
One of the best things is once the companies all went public, a lot of investors want to
know what it's like when it comes to driver supply.
And these companies, Uber is, I think, close to $200 billion market cap.
And so you imagine if you're the expert in Uber drivers, someone might pay you a lot
of money to learn about Uber drivers.
So we'll do one hour calls or quarterly calls with different investment banks.
So anyone with money that really cares about Uber and Lyft drivers, we're always trying
to find that nice balance of business and monetization.
Because we do, I've got a book for drivers called The Ride Share Guide.
We've got a course for drivers.
We offer coaching to drivers.
But it really is probably less than 1% of our revenue.
Drivers really don't make a lot of money, and they don't spend a lot of money either.
So we try to give 99% of our content for free and monetize it in other ways.
Do you syndicate in other languages?
We've tried.
I think we do have a Ride Share Guide and Espanyol YouTube channel.
So I think YouTube, as you guys know, does a lot of health.
Yeah, a lot of help with translations.
And I think it makes a couple bucks, but it probably makes more than it costs us,
but it definitely, I can't recite the numbers, so it probably isn't a ton.
This is fascinating.
So, okay, let's jump to the now, because I have a ton of questions that you've unearthed
and just explaining what you do and how you do it.
What is the size of the current, I don't want to say gig economy, because I'm not all that
interested in stuff outside of the vehicle stuff, but let's just say
Uber left and delivery.
How many drivers are we talking about in, what's your specialty, US or North America?
How many do you estimate?
How many drivers, was this their main source of income?
Well, all right, so that's a loaded question, but to answer it simply, I would say that
very few drivers actually rely on it for their main source of income.
So maybe only a few 100000 drivers are doing Uber and Lyft full-time
for their full-time income.
And why is that?
Because like a taxi driver, it's their full-time job usually.
Usually, yes.
Why?
Just because they have to provide their own car, it's just too expensive.
So, I would say it's by the nature of the work.
I mean, first of all, think about Uber and Lyft have always advertised or talked about the job
as flexible, easy to start, drive as much as you want or as little as you want.
I've never seen an ad, drive for Uber, come sit in your car for 60 hours a week and grind it
out to the bone and pay $500 a week to rent a car and all the bad sides of things.
They highlight the flexibility and that's what we see.
We see that most drivers, they always, when we do surveys, the two reasons that they drive
for Uber and Lyft, let's stick with rideshare for a minute, the pay, obviously like we talked
about, they got to make money and then the flexibility.
I don't think people in the audience right now realize how flexible it is driving for Uber.
You can sign up, you can be onboarded in just a few days, you pass a background check,
you can do a virtual inspection, you can do a selfie check to verify your ID.
They want to make it really easy for you to get going on the platform as long as you
meet all the requirements.
And there's no sort of driver's test or anything like that.
No driver's test.
It's just more that, do you have a license and have you not had a DU?
It's more serious stuff.
I'm sure if you've got a bunch of accidents recently and they saw that on your driving record,
that would be flagged.
But also think about the system, right?
They've got a rating system so that when your first 50 trips, depending on your rating,
if you're a 2.0 after your first, maybe 10 or 20 trips, that's going to cause flags in their
system and they're going to flag you.
So I think they try to, the companies try to solve a lot of the potential issues with
product products, you would say.
Do they, just to put a pin in the first thing, do they, like,
I've had a few drivers where I'm like, this is insane.
Yeah.
Do they do anything about it or they just give them a low rating?
So if you give them a low rating, basically, usually the cutoff is around 4.6.
So you probably have never seen a driver below 4.6 or if you have, they're very new or
I would never even think too long.
They're not going to last, yeah, they're not going to last too long.
So that's kind of a cutoff.
So like Lyft would remove somebody if they have a lot of negative ratings.
Right, because think about, right, Lyft has that relationship with a customer, right?
If you're getting a bad Lyft driver or, you know, even on the insurance side,
the company has kind of complained a lot over the past year, like 40% of what the
passenger pays in California, Texas, Florida, it actually goes straight to insurance.
Insurance costs are very high.
You know, we're here in LA, you see the billboards for the Uber and Lyft accident
lawyers everywhere.
This is a big business.
You might want to interview one of these guys.
They really sue the heck out of Uber and Lyft and there are very large potential judgments
here at stake.
And so you can imagine, right, Lyft and Uber, for those reasons too, you know, for the customer
experience for potential liability, they want highly rated drivers.
They don't want bad drivers on the platform.
I won't say which one.
I'm sure the statutes have run out, but I was in a Lyft one time.
I just said which one.
It was a Lyft.
And I took a video of the guy driving me because he was doing this weird thing where he was
looking at his phone, the entire time, but also like
he would hit the throttle and come off when he moved his head.
So it was just this herky-jerky thing and he was on the freeway doing that.
Going 40 on the freeway and I'm videoing the whole thing.
And my friend worked at Lyft and I sent it to him and he's like,
$1,000 in credits if you don't publish that.
I was like sold.
All right, well, we won't name any names, but I mean, I guess it's funny.
I hear stories like that.
And frankly, I think I've heard a lot more stories like that, you know, lately than I
did 10 years ago.
It's gone down, I think, the quality of the driver as a casual user of both.
It's like, whew.
Well, he's saying the opposite.
He's saying it's gone up.
No, I'm saying that's what I'm saying.
I'm saying that we can get into the reasons why.
Because I think it dovetails into the original question of how many drivers there are that,
you know, we've got this small minority that because it's so flexible, they, you know,
they're working full.
Oh, I guess I would say because it's so flexible, majority of the drivers are kind of like me.
They drive whenever they drive wherever.
Maybe they'll drive a Saturday night.
Maybe they'll take three months off for summer vacation, right?
If you're hiring someone, that would be a terrible employee.
You never know when they're going to come in.
They work a lot.
They work a little.
And so I think when you consider how flexible driving for rideshare and the gig economy is,
that's what attracts a lot of people.
They've got a product called Instant Pay.
So you can actually go out and drive for Uber and Lyft.
At the end of your shift, you cash it out to your bank account instantly.
And I think that's pretty cool.
You can't go work for Starbucks whenever you want and make $100 and have that money in your ATM
account and pull it out and cash.
And so that's what attracts a lot of people.
A lot of people like to complain about driving for Uber and Lyft.
We've got plenty of content on the rideshare guy complaining,
inventing about policies and not making enough money.
But at the end of the day, there are millions of drivers out there for Uber and Lyft in the
United States.
There's millions of delivery drivers and a majority, I would say 70 to 80 percent,
are kind of working in that part-time capacity for rideshare 20 to 30 hours a week or less.
But the full-time guys who are doing 40 to 50 hours a week or more driving for Uber and Lyft,
they actually make up over half of the total hours on the platform.
So sort of that small number of drivers is doing a lot of the hours and a lot of the work.
And so that's sort of, if you've ever seen protests from Uber drivers in Los Angeles,
it's because they're kind of working like employees, but getting paid like independent
contractors and not without any of the benefits.
So it's all to say, there's a lot of variability, different experiences.
And I've probably talked to tens of thousands of drivers over the past 10 years.
So we try to collate those different experiences and kind of merge that with my own.
So a couple of 100000 full-time and several million that are part-time
would be the roughest numbers.
And are you still driving on occasion?
I don't drive anymore.
I think once I had my third kid and had all the different car seats, it's like every time I had
a kid and I have to take a car seat out to drive for Uber and Lyft, it got more and more of a
hassle. Now I primarily kind of run the business of the rideshare guy.
We've got a bunch of great contributors though, who are all over the country,
who are either veteran drivers or new delivery drivers.
And so we kind of always-
You have to dust off the cape and show them how it's done.
You know what?
One thing, I mean, I would say just on a personal level is one thing that I wouldn't say that I
got tired of, but with the rideshare industry is that it's kind of been the same old.
All the same complaints that drivers had 10 years ago are kind of the same today.
They don't make enough.
They're kind of worried about being deactivated by the companies.
The companies take too damn much of every fare.
You pay $100.
You'd be kind of shocked sometimes to see that the driver doesn't get...
They only get $40 on some fares.
Maybe they only get $60 of that 100.
How has that decided the breakdown of what they get?
So that's a big issue for drivers because it's basically a black box.
So when I first started driving for Uber and Lyft, what you paid, let's say, was $100.
It was basically a formula.
So they would knock off a $5 fee and then I would get 80% of the remaining fare.
So I would make close to $80 on that fare.
So if it was a really high surge fare, that was great for me.
I would make a lot of money.
Now what the companies do is they quote you an upfront price as a customer.
So you tell them where you're going.
They say, okay, it's going to be $80 to get to this location.
And they quote me as a driver, an upfront price too.
Those two are decoupled though.
So as you might imagine, they want to charge you as much as possible.
They want to pay me as little as possible.
And that's kind of, I wouldn't say that's the pessimistic view,
but that's kind of the most simplistic explanation.
And I mean, there's a reason why Uber just announced their earnings the other day
and they made $3 billion last quarter.
They've gotten really good at doing that.
They facilitate millions of rides every single day.
And some of that is actually through cool product features.
So typically they send a driver a request.
They say, Harry, this person's going to this location for $20.
You want to take them?
Now they have a feature called trip radar where it's kind of more of a carousel
where you can see 10 different trips and you get to pick the one you want.
Where are they going?
What's the passenger rated?
You have a little bit more information.
And what they're trying to do is basically find value in a trip for someone who maybe
this person wants to do it for 20, but I want to do it for 18
because I got to pick my kid up from school over there.
So now my perception of value for that trip is actually higher than this person
and I'm getting paid less.
So obviously Uber and Lyft have some really smart people working for them
and I'm sure that's why they've got thousands of engineers working on things like this.
And the company, Uber specifically, is doing quite well when it comes to human rideshare.
So as a driver, has it always been, you've always been able to see where the person wants to go?
I always thought that the drivers have to, they're picking up a fare based on the GPS.
So somebody's close to them.
But this was common LAX.
This used to be a taxi cab issue, right?
Because I live relatively close to LAX.
Oh, so they don't like you?
Yes, exactly.
No, this is even worse because our office used to be 10 minutes away.
And they were like, has to be catch?
I'm like, no, I'm using my company car.
It's the reason why Uber and Lyft came about because taxi cab service in LA.
I thought you were going to say it's a reason why you moved offices?
No, but it was, I mean, I remember when I first heard about Uber,
I was so excited because this was, I mean, you remember when I used to travel,
it was a weekly experience of like just getting beat up by a taxi.
And I'm like, I'm just, I just got off a 12 hour flight.
I just want to go to the office and get my car.
Not the ideal experience.
And yeah, and Uber, they never said anything.
So early on when it came to Uber and Lyft, I actually remember when you had to get in
the car and tell the driver where you were going to literally input.
That was the first iteration.
And then you started entering it.
And so I would actually would not see the location and they were trying to solve.
I mean, Uber and Lyft, especially Uber, has always been a customer centric platform.
Think about early on, right?
No tipping, right?
All digital, right?
That's, I mean, if you listen to the early talks at Travis Kalanick,
the former CEO of Uber gave, he was trying to solve a problem for the customer.
He wasn't like, oh, I used to be a cab driver and I'm trying to make the system better for them.
And I think that really propagated through the product over the years.
And I think if you're a driver, maybe you would say in some bad ways,
but it's obviously been a very, even if you look at surge pricing,
this is something that seems very customer unfriendly on the service surface.
But for me as a driver, I would not be out there on a Saturday night taking you home,
right? If it weren't for surge pricing.
So even surge pricing, I would argue is a very customer friendly feature because
would you rather not get a ride home or would you rather pay a lot more and complain about it?
But remember, people pay for it.
So even though they complain about it, you can't economically get those drivers out
on the road and tap into that supply of people like me who I wouldn't,
I maybe wouldn't even drive for Uber if they didn't have surge pricing.
You can pay me enough money to go pick up somebody from the Hollywood Bowl after that thing gets out,
right? Well, that's why they have to pay so much money and that's why it's so expensive.
Jessica Seinfeld would argue differently, but yes, yes.
All right. So, okay, this is fascinating. Why do delivery?
Why would you be a delivery driver over an Uber or Lyft driver?
Or do people not make the distinction? Are they kind of one of the same?
Yeah. So on paper, it actually sounds pretty good. You know, let me go do rideshare.
I'll do a little delivery. Maybe on lunch hours, I do delivery and I do rideshare during the
evenings, but in reality, it actually doesn't work out like that at all. We do see a strong
bifurcation between rideshare drivers and delivery drivers and that's for a few reasons.
One is just the qualifications to be a delivery driver are actually a lot less stringent. We
talked about the background check issue. You don't have a customer in the back of your car.
So you actually in California... Who cares how you drive?
Yeah. And yeah, who cares how you drive? So in most states, you can be 18 or over to deliver.
In California, you have to be 25 or older to drive for Uber and that's primarily for
insurance reasons, right? Everyone knows that 25-year-old is that cutoff, right? Apparently,
you become a good driver once you're 25. According to the rental car companies.
According to the rental car companies. You also don't need a car. You can deliver on an e-bike.
You can deliver with a friend. Delivery companies don't actually provide a lot of insurance
to delivery drivers. So if you get into an accident, you're kind of on your own
for the most part with... Interesting. Right? Because again, there's no customer in the back.
Oh, that's interesting. But that means if you hit someone... Yeah, that's...
I know someone who was hit by an Amazon truck. Yeah. Well, if it had a big Amazon logo on the
side, that's a little bit... I was saying, they were very happy they were hit by the Amazon truck.
Although Amazon does... They actually outsource a lot of their deliveries to these... They're called
DSPs. Yes. So on track, Dynamics, companies like that. So it's actually usually... I'm sure you
could still try... I'm sure lawyers still try and sue Amazon. Oh, they tried. It's a very successful
lawsuit. It's a very successful lawsuit. But yeah. So that's sort of just logistically. I work with
a company in New York City called Wiz. And so they've got thousands of these green e-bikes all over
the city. Most delivery drivers are actually immigrants and most of them deliver on e-bike
because no one has a car in New York City. And so you can go and rent a car in New York City to drive
for Uber and Lyft for $5, $600 a week because you need commercial insurance and licensing. It's
actually a much higher barrier. And it's the only market in the U.S. like that. Or you can rent a
bike from Wiz for $200 a month. They've got five or six locations all around town. Whenever you
have a flat or need maintenance, you just go grab a new bike. So that barrier to entry is very low.
And you get around faster in New York. And that's obviously why. But in places in San Francisco,
we see a lot of e-bike delivery drivers, even in LA. You kind of need to get the e-bike to West
Hollywood. But once you're in West Hollywood, you can deliver on e-bike pretty quickly. I would
argue a lot faster during evening rush hour, dinner rush. And so your earnings potential,
I would say most Uber and Lyft drivers are probably making about $20 to $25 an hour right now. And
that's before expenses. You're responsible for your own expenses. Delivery drivers are probably
more in that $15 to $20 an hour. But your expenses can and probably should be a lot lower. You
probably shouldn't be delivering in a Mercedes S-Class, although I have seen some pretty nice
delivery cars. So what's happening now with gas prices basically doubled? That's got to
really cut into the bottom line of all these drivers. So what are you seeing anything?
I mean, it's probably a top complaint of added to the list of complaints right now because of
gas prices. And one of the things about gas prices, it's an acute pain. Every single week,
an Uber and Lyft driver might fill up three to five times and you get very used to $44.
Now it's $70. So it's like, wow, it's painful. Just imagine this multiple times a week versus
delayed expenses. You guys are car guys. It's easy to kind of forget about the maintenance
and the oil chain and brakes. Tires. Those are delayed expenses. But gas is something you see
multiple times a week. So are you seeing less drivers or are you seeing more like EVs being
used? Frankly, it's tough, right? Because for drivers, the easiest solution is just to drive
more. Remember, if you're making $100 and your expenses are $20 a day and now your expenses are
$30 a day, but you need that $70 or that $80. You do an extra hour and you make that extra money
and it's not ideal. But I guess you could argue that's one of the benefits. So you can just work
an extra hour. But that's also one of the downsides, right? You could argue that. You're
responsible for your expenses. And the companies are usually a bit slow to react. But I think this
was such a, you know, we saw this during COVID too that they actually eventually did a gas surcharge
that they passed through to customers. And so a lot of the companies are doing gas surcharges now
for drivers. So there's a little bit, you know, might be 25 or 50 cents per trip. So I think this
has been so extreme. But still, you know, if gas prices keep going up and it's only 50 cents,
that might not offset it. And of course, for drivers who have lower MPG cars, it might be even
worse, you know, the gas prices might be worse. So that's kind of the easiest, maybe not ideal,
but that's the easiest solution just to drive more. We, you know, I just featured an article the
other day on our social media channels where some drivers are changing their strategies,
right? Thinking about like, Hey, if I can work during times where I take lower mileage trips,
right, that 20 mile trip for 20 bucks, maybe isn't so good anymore. Maybe now I want the
shorter trips that are trying to pay a little bit more money. Maybe now I actually think about,
maybe I go do some deliveries, right? Because with delivery, you actually can,
you know, the miles that you do on a delivery, are you order from places that are a lot closer,
right? Three to five miles or less would be kind of, you know, people aren't ordering from 10,
15 miles away. In a lot of cases, you can't order from restaurants that are too far away.
Yeah, if you go drive for Uber and Lyft in Los Angeles, I would almost guarantee by the end
of the day, if you do a full 12 hour shift, you'll get someone that wants to go to Orange County.
I don't know what it is, but you always get people going to Orange County or, you know,
going out East or North, you get a far trip eventually. I take long Uber trips when I use
an Uber. So yes. So I think drivers are changing their strategy a little. I wouldn't say that
we're seeing people switch to EVs, but I think that, you know, because think about to the profile
of these drivers, like most of the trips in Los Angeles, for example, example happen in all the
high socioeconomic areas, West Hollywood, Venice, downtown, but most drivers can't afford to live
in those areas. They live out East, they live North, they live South, and this happens in all
the major cities. And so they can't just say, oh, let me go buy an EV, they may not have the credit,
they may not have the down payment.
But I mean, sorry to cut you off. Like my understanding is that there are services
where you can rent 500 bucks a week and demand, I guess, for like, I'm going to rent a car from
Uber or whatever, like the third party, are they saying, hey, I want an EV because I don't have
to worry about gas prices? It's too soon for that.
Yeah, no, there's a bunch of services. I mean, there's the big names like Hertz and Avis that
Uber partner with to rent vehicles. So, you know, in California, you can rent, you know,
let's call it, you know, a vehicle for anywhere from $300 to $400 a week. So it's not cheap.
But they typically, you know, a lot of people compare it to a lease, it's not a normal lease,
you usually get some kind of unlimited or very high mileage, you get maintenance included,
you get insurance, or sometimes you have to pay for insurance on top of that.
There's other fleets, there's one here that I work with an LA called Eight Fleet, for example.
And so they rent vehicles to Uber and Lyft drivers. And yeah, I think definitely
these fleets are not cheap, right? So you have a lot of drivers, think about the type of person,
it's, you don't have your own, you know, a lot of people in America love cars, own cars,
vehicle ownership is very high. But if you don't have a car, you know, sometimes these drivers
might be low credit, they might be no credit. And so they're kind of expensive, you know,
they might not have a job. And so you, you know, I wouldn't say that they're risky to rent to, but
the people who are coming to rent these vehicles, you know, it's expensive to rent a vehicle to
someone with no credit and no history of work or doesn't have a job. And so they have to charge
accordingly. And so what we always tell people is if you're going to rent a vehicle to drive
for Uber, and if you got to be ready to drive it every day, you know, 45 to 60 hours a week,
got to make it pay for itself, you got to be willing to put in the hours, you can't be taking
days off, weeks off, months off. And, you know, we see some drivers definitely, you know, they
kind of get in, they figure out the system, and they have success. And, you know, it works for
them. And some people like putting miles on someone else's car and not their own. So there's a lot
of different opportunities. Let me ask you what, just going, what do you say, what does success
look like for a, for a rideshare driver? Because it just seems like it's just like, it's just
constantly diminishing everything. Like gas is going up, insurance cars are getting
more expensive. I'm sure the rates to rent a car are getting more expensive. What, what, what is
success? To me, I would say success is earning more than the average driver in whatever city
you're driving in, right? So let's say in Los Angeles, it's a little bit higher cost of living
city, you know, fares are a little bit higher. So the average might be closer to $25 per hour
before expenses. And what we've seen is actually, I think customers see this a lot, there's a ton
of variability on pricing. Have you ever compared Uber on Lyft? Sometimes Uber is 20 and sometimes
Lyft is 40. And in certain cities, it's the complete reverse. And some people in LA tell
me Uber is always more expensive. And other people tell me, I don't know what's going on.
But one thing I do know is there's a ton of variability on pricing, on driver pay. Sometimes
it's just the luck of the draw. You get a good ride. Sometimes you're in the right spot. You get a
good run. And, and then a lot of it too, I think is skill. We see a very sharp increase in hourly
earnings for drivers after the 500 trip threshold. And that is basically, you know, like with a lot
of jobs, you figure it out. Oh, I can drive for Uber and Lyft. Oh, maybe during certain times,
if I get a customer, if it's really busy and I get a request from 10 minutes away,
I'm going to ignore that request. Because I bet I'll get 13 to five minutes away
on my next one, right? So there's a lot of strategies. Our team calls this cherry picking.
So you cherry pick the best rides. Companies don't love this. Probably not that great for
passengers. You know, when you request a ride on the Uber or Lyft app, and it's circling around
and not matching, that's probably because of my guys, they're out there like, oh, do I want to
take this trip or not? And, you know, Uber and Lyft don't love this either. But they present a lot
of information. That's one of the things people love. I'm sure we'll talk about autonomous vehicles.
It's one of the things people love about Waymo. When you request that trip, it gives you a price.
And as soon as you hit request, seven minute ETA, that Waymo is on the way. It's not stopping for
gas. It's not, you know, it might still hit traffic like an Uber driver. But, you know, it's on the
way and, you know, nothing other than traffic is going to stop it. Let's talk. Yeah, I want to go
to that. We're going to cover autonomous. But before we talk about that, in terms of his last
question, give us an extreme example. What's the most successful Uber or Lyft driver? Well,
what have you heard? Like some guy made some insane. I mean, we interview,
I guess I've always looked at my business is that like, hey, there are millions of drivers out there
doing it. And I want to help them earn more. I want to help them make more money. We can
talk about the negatives left and right. But at the end of the day, people are still doing it.
Millions of people are still doing it. So how do we do it in the best way? So I sometimes our
audience gets a little mad, but I always like to feature some of the higher earning drivers. And
I mean, we've interviewed on the regular, you know, people that are making over $100,000 a year
driving for Uber in San Francisco, for example. Over 2000 dollars a week, I would call it.
And, you know, that's before expenses. But, you know, they're obviously going to be in a Prius
or they might be in an EV. They might live in a house that has solar and charge their EV at home.
And, you know, it's, it's might be optimized. Yeah, they've optimized it quite well. You know,
we interview people all the time who are making 5000 dollars, 4000 dollars
in a single week. And they might be driving 80 hours a week on both Uber and Lyft. And,
you know, Uber actually has a 12 hour limit. And so they might hit that 12 hour limit pop over
to Lyft, which is kind of a little scary. But, you know, people are out there hustling.
This means it's really nicely into driverless. Well, and I mean, you know, it's just a highlight
that like there are people in LA. There's a guy who tags me on Instagram every single week.
I can't even remember his profile. It kind of annoys me. But I think he makes 50 to 60 dollars
routinely. And whenever I enter, you know, I always message him like, Hey, come on our podcast.
I do an interview. He never replies. But he always tags me every single week.
So then this is, I mean, this is super fascinating. Like you're, you've been servicing
this community of gig workers for a driver and delivery. But you've also set up the driverless
guide. Digest. Driverless, sorry. My book is the rideshare guide. That's right. Driverless digest,
which is again, you're super good about seeing the future. It's coming, right? And actually,
Uber and Lyft had been talking. Yeah, Uber wants it more. They set up entire divisions,
invested billions in autonomous tech. That time seems to be landing right about now,
with Waymo, with CyberTaxi or, you know, Tesla's doing RoboTaxi, CyberTaxi, Zooks.
What does that, what does that space look like to you? And how do you fit into it?
Yeah. So autonomous vehicles, I think, are at a super interesting and cool inflection point. I mean,
I started the driverless digest about a year ago. And I think I initially, my tagline was kind of
covering the business of AVs because I'm not an AV expert. I'm not going to pretend to know. I mean,
I probably know more than the average person around LiDAR and sensors and hardware. And you
have done a lot of great interviews now. And so the reason I do a lot of interviews is so I can learn.
But I mean, one of the kind of impetus is you would say was I saw that Waymo was raising
billions of dollars. I mean, kind of an insane amount. It reminded me of the early Uber and
Lyft days. And so with my business hat on, I thought to myself, Hey, maybe this is an industry
worth covering. I have a personal interest in AVs. I think I can provide a unique data point
or value or analysis. And then I think the other cool thing is that if you're in a Waymo city,
if you're in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Phoenix, Austin, Atlanta, where they're operating and doing
hundreds of thousands of trips per week, like the future is here, self driving cars are here.
If you're not, you might kind of even not even realize that the future is here. Like I talked
to a lot of people in Chicago, for example, and they're like, Oh, yeah, Waymo, you know,
it's that's a big futuristic tech. It's not here yet. I'm like, come to Santa Monica LA.
And so I think that's kind of this cool inflection point where you have a lot of
competing factors or narratives, but the technology is here. It's scaling. And even,
you know, if you take one step back, you know, bringing Uber into the fold,
you could kind of argue that Waymo is scaling on its own, you know, hundreds of 500. Waymo is
now doing 500,000 trips a week in a bunch of different markets. But if you take one step
back and look at Uber, I mean, in New York City alone, Uber and Lyft do 700,000 trips every single
day, right? So they're more than 10x Waymo, you know, seven to 10x Waymo in one market. And
then obviously Uber's got tons of markets in the United States globally. And so you can sort of see
it all depends on your perspective. But I do think that, you know, AVs are really exciting,
you know, just from a customer point of view, being able to get in the car without a driver.
I mean, I think it actually solves a lot of the complaints that customers have
around rideshare over the past few years. It's my favorite thing. Look, you could look at my
Uber and Lyft profiles. I'm like, no music, cold, don't talk to me. Every car I get into.
Windows are down because they don't want to run the AC to save money. Even though I try to tell
them that with the Windows... So you do know a lot about Uber driving. Oh, just wait, the EV guys
are especially bad about it. They always have the worst music on and it smells and they talk,
they want to ask me questions. So first time I got in a Waymo, I was like,
I'm home. No music. Like freezing, you know, like windows up. And I think even small creature
comforts people underestimate. Like, you know, even if you get into the Uber and you say, oh,
do you mind turning the air on? Not a big deal. But then in Arizona, you're like, oh crap,
it's a little too much. Should I ask them? You know, it's like... But they mind.
I'm trying to save money. I'm like, if you have the windows down, you waste more because the car's
less aerodynamic. That's a good point. Put the AC up in the window. All right, so that can be your
first tips for Uber driver video right there. But no, I think the feedback, I think a lot of people,
if you look at the survey data, are a little bit skeptical to get into a Waymo or an AV. But once
they've taken that first trip, they love it, you know, all of the reasons. And then, you know,
the safety data, you know, I think Waymo has released a lot of safety data that shows, you
know, they're 789 times safer than a lot of Uber and Lyft drivers. And, you know,
I think, you know, I've done Uber and Lyft driving, obviously, Uber's sending a lot of
information when you're driving 50 miles an hour down the road, I would say that they kind of make
it unsafe in a lot of ways. So not exactly shocking there. Sorry. But Waymos are getting safer.
A new driver six is coming with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 Waymo, which I was just at the factory.
Well, I don't know if they're getting safer. But I do think that they have a, you could,
you know, I think some of the safety experts I've interviewed would actually argue that,
you know, if you put 100 million miles on the Jaguar I-Pace, and then you launch a new car,
you kind of, you know, can you extrapolate that safety data from that first car to the next car?
100% because it's the camera. 100,000 percent. Yeah, it's cameras, the sensors. So I think,
overall, though, you know, I think that... I don't know. I think driver six is going to be
really good. It's looking good for Waymo specifically. Waymo's had a lot of,
look, Waymo, we voted Waymo as the best driverless, like the best robotaxi. Yeah. This is our two
years in a row, and then I'm now... Well, they're also the only robotaxi without a driver in the
country. Fair, but we've also been, now, like we have egg on our face because of all these terrible
accidents that have happened where they've been running off the road, this whole thing where
they get driving around people's... With Waymo? Yeah, with Waymo. Well, you know, so what...
Oh, in Georgia, the neighborhood? Yes, that was... We have a section that we do in our newsletter
every week on the driverless digest called AV's Behaving Badly, and I will say that honestly,
more often than not, it's situations where... I wouldn't call them funny, but it's like, yeah,
it's like, you know, Waymo's driving around in a neighborhood. You know, it's not... It's very rare...
That's caused... It's very rare that, you know, it's a Waymo hit someone, you know, they had an
incident here in Santa Monica where a child basically popped out from behind an SUV, and the
Waymo slowed down and contacted it, and Waymo's argument was that, you know, a human, according
to their models, you know, a human would have been driving at 17 miles an hour, they actually slowed
down to 5 miles an hour, and, you know, I think they kind of had a good argument because the child
didn't go to the hospital, they were okay, but like, is that a good argument? Like, I don't know,
I'm not a PR marketing person, but like, hey, we didn't hit the kid as hard as a human would have,
but I think there's probably some truth there.
Right, they're 100% right and 100% wrong at the same time, but the one in Georgia was,
they stuck one of those little, like, those little plastic kid things, like, drive slowly,
and the Ubers just felt like they were trapped. The Waymo, sorry, the Waymo felt like they were
trapped by this kid in the street. Yeah, so that's a lot of the issues that we're seeing,
which I think some of the criticism is very valid in San Francisco. There was this huge blackout
where, I guess, Waymo's just weren't... I mean, I think they were prepared for the blackout,
but they weren't prepared for the way people were going to drive during the blackout, where
everyone was like zombie apocalypse, and people were running red lights, and all the Waymo's were
like, got stuck, and instead of pulling over, they called Fortella Assistants to say, hey,
what do I do? And you kind of probably want that. You probably like, in some unknown situation,
do you want them like, driving all over the place? But it kind of caused havoc because they
clogged up all the intersections, and imagine if that would have been, you know, earthquake,
or, you know, I just finished Monarch season two on Apple TV, if it's Godzilla attacking,
you know, and everyone's trying to get out of there, and Waymo's are blocking the roads,
that's not great. Let me ask you, I'm sort of fascinated by your pivot for rideshare guy to
driverless digest. The audience for rideshare guy is drivers. You're helping them optimize
the whole thing, you know, make as much money per hour, I have all these tips.
Aren't you then now switching sides? Like, the driverless digest... First of all, who's the
audience, right? Good question. People do ask me, you know, oh, there's no drivers. And as I said,
that's why I call the driverless digest. But the audience would be basically anyone and everyone
in the industry, around the industry, you know, so working at the companies, all of the
charging infrastructure, we have all, we just did a conference in LA that I talked to you about at
called Kerbervor. And, you know, we had a lot of people in the real estate world came and attended
the event because they're very interested in the impacts of autonomous vehicles on real estate,
whether it's EV charging or even where people are going to build developments. One of the, you
know, sort of theories is that AVs might unlock is basically that, you know, if you can take a
Waymo into work, you know, 234 even five times a week, you might be willing to live an
hour further, right? Maybe there's going to be communities that are going to develop, right?
Maybe you go to, maybe the weekend trips become a lot more popular because you can just, you know,
get in a Waymo and sit in traffic, go drive wherever, you know, so these destinations,
you know, maybe it becomes a lot more pleasurable to do that versus, you know,
fly to an airport, TSA, you know, all of that stuff, sit in the back of a Waymo or even a
Zooks or one of these new Zeekr vehicles. But yeah, so to answer your question, Ed,
so our audience is definitely more of an industry audience. And, you know, we're up to about 10,000
subscribers on our driverless digest email list growing, you know, I would say quickly for my
end. And so I think there's definitely an appetite there. And you're right. I mean, honestly, I
don't promote the driverless digest stuff really to our ride share guy audience, but there are a
lot of interesting crossover topics. So we've done a couple of pieces recently on how AVs
are affecting driver pay in the cities that have Waymos versus the cities that don't have Waymos.
Shocker, drivers are making about three to 7% less in the cities where Waymos are because that's
more supply, right? Waymo is really cannibalizing a lot of this, people. I love Waymo.
I'm never taking a Uber or Lyft again. I think it's kind of obvious, you know, so that's
cannibalizing some of Uber and Lyft's business. I would do the same thing. Yeah, I would.
So yeah, that's kind of the audience for the driverless digest. And, you know, basically to say,
I guess I look at it and I wouldn't say I justify it, but on a personal level, I do think that,
you know, hey, there's still going to be a lot of drivers for a long time. And, you know, those
drivers were, you know, I wouldn't say I'm pivoting. We still have plenty of all the content we're
doing on the rideshare guy. I personally am spending a lot more time, you know, covering and
creating content for the driverless side, but, you know, I think that's sort of going to be the
future. So I don't prepare for it. Well, let me ask you about that. So you are still bullish
on humans driving and delivering for the near term, the midterm? How many years out before
Waymo Zooks, Cyber, Taxi or Dominate? I think for the next three to five years,
people are going to talk a lot more about AVs than we're going to see actual impacts on day-to-day
operations. And so when I say day-to-day operations, you know, if you look at Uber, for example,
99% of their day-to-day operations and business is human rideshare. Investors, though, probably
care 99% about AVs right now. Their stock price has just featured a graph last week. Uber probably
doesn't love that I keep talking about this, but their stock is not doing well. It's down on the
year compared to the market is up. And I think I'm a big driver of that. I'm not an investment
person, but it's kind of obvious that a lot of investors have questions about AVs disrupt.
They made $3 billion last quarter. It should be a great stock. People should be loving it,
but a lot of people are worried about that AV feature. They're worried about Waymo. They're
worried about Tesla. Uber has partnered with anyone and everyone in the AV space, but they
haven't partnered with Tesla. Elon Musk is not a big partnership guy. Got to go at it alone.
I can't deliver anything on a timeline.
But they're sort of the wild card. I'm sure we'll talk about Tesla's approach to AVs,
but they're kind of the wild card in the space. And so, yeah, I think that that's sort of what
we're seeing more broadly with the landscape. Well, I was going to ask too, with full self-driving,
finally working and working really, really well, is that something you cover? Do you cover
like consumer cars that drive themselves? Yeah, I'm not an expert in consumers. I owned a Tesla
for eight years, the Model 3, Model Y, and I actually just gave it up for a Rivian and boy,
I love the Rivian. It's twice the price, but twice as nice. But I really miss the full self-driving
supervised. I didn't even have the latest hardware and software with the Tesla Model Y and 3. So,
I haven't even tried that. But obviously, there's a lot of videos and everyone you guys have covered
it. Everyone's talking about how. You got to turn to Rivian? The economy's coming.
Well, I mean, I like, I've invited Rivian on my podcast a bunch of times and they haven't come yet,
but I will say that it does feel like Rivian feels like my Tesla autopilot from many years ago.
Like, that's kind of the level that they're at. We were up at Rivian AI in autonomy day and we got
to ride in one, you know, as the eyes off, self-driving, you know, you had to, your hands off,
you had to pay attention to eyes on. And I don't remember, but like, we're going through a turn
and I'm like, does it ever feel as if the car learned to drive before today? Because it's just
like. Yeah, my wife used to complain about Tesla back in the day, how it couldn't quite balance
in the lane, like it would kind of like bump back and forth, right? And now it's obviously gotten
really good and barely noticed. I took a RoboTaxi ride in San Francisco and you know, even, you know,
there was some guy sitting in the front seat of the RoboTaxi ride, but it's a brand new Model Y,
nice car, you know, smooth ride, clean, compared to, you know, you're very cheap, you know,
they're pricing them very cheap. And, you know, I was kind of impressed and that's one of the
reasons why I try, you know, Waymo and Zooks and even the Tesla RoboTaxi because, you know,
I think on the personal side. So yeah, so to answer your question, we're not like covering them
specifically, but how they fit into, obviously, a lot of people ask me about Tesla and, you know,
they're taking this bottoms up approach with cameras only coming from the cheaper end,
you know, Waymo is at the top end with LiDAR and sensors and, you know, lots of money and Tesla's
coming from the bottom end and I wouldn't, I'm not going to make, you can ask me my opinion on
when they'll get to the Waymo level of safety, but if or when they do, that's why I call them the
wild card in the industry because, you know, they make produced 5,000 cars a day. Waymo only has
3,000 cars in their fleet, one of the big barriers. This is changing very, I was just at the Hyundai
meta plant. Yeah. Man, that's going to change quick. Not only is Waymo switching to Hyundai,
but Hyundai has their own rideshare Morpheus, I think it's called. Morpheus, maybe something,
but I mean, they're, yeah. Right. So that's going to happen fast. That's fair. I think that's going
to happen and, you know, but you asked me the timeline. I think that, you know, like we know,
you guys know cars, these aren't quick timelines, right? 2020. So that's sort of my, I think,
three to five years, I don't think we're going to see a ton, you know, we're not going to see
overnight, you know, rideshare drivers on the street in three to five years, but I think you
will see slow and gradual. And then, yeah, I think as more companies, you know, Zooks, for example,
they're, I think the second most interesting company after Waymo because they're right on the
cusp of launching in San Francisco. You can take a driverless ride right now in an area that they
just expanded it. It was in the mission and now it's all over San Francisco. They're not charging
yet, but they also don't have a steering wheel in the car. So if something goes wrong, they can't
really, they couldn't do all the same testing that Waymo and Robotaxi and others can. So I think
that's very cool. So that's level five autonomy. Yeah, they're backed by Amazon. I think it'd be
level four. They're backed by Amazon and they have the ability, ability to produce,
they say in their factory, 10,000 vehicles a year. So I think, you know, three to five years,
I think that's when maybe we'll see some scale come into play, but there's still, you know,
rides in Zoos, Waymo and Robotaxi. Yeah. All in the Bay Area, Waymo here. I mean,
I've done others, you know, over the years, emotional in Vegas a few years ago. Never took
a cruise ride. You know, honestly, I really over the past year and a half is when I focused a lot
of my energy onto the autonomous vehicle space. I did Google Firefly back in 2015, the OG little
pod car. Weird thing. Yeah. Okay, so you've done all the current technology. Zoos is running in
Las Vegas too. They're in Las Vegas. It's really hard to get. I tried twice to get it right.
I was just there and yeah, so the weight is quite high in Vegas. I could have sworn I saw over a
hundred in Vegas. They're everywhere. You know, they're everywhere and, you know, they're taking,
I think, a big swing with the form factor, right? So it's a carriage doors that basically open
so you don't have to pay some door dasher to go and close the Waymo doors. If I don't know if
anyone saw that story and you get in, you have four people that can essentially face each other.
And yeah, so I think they're taking an interesting approach, but I do think it's going to be
challenging. I mean, we've seen a lot of data that actually customers are willing to pay 30%
more for Waymo and wait longer for a Waymo because it's such a good experience compared
to Uber and Lyft. I think people might wait longer and pay more for Tesla because obviously
they've got their fandom. I think when it comes to Zooks and Wave is another big company out of the
UK, Maymobility, Averite, all these other AV companies, I don't think people are going to be
downloading their apps in the same kind of numbers that people are downloading the Waymo app. And so
I think that's where a lot of these companies, you know, Zooks just announced a partnership with
Uber. Waymo is partnering with Uber. They're partnering with Lyft in Nashville that they
just launched. So I think this partnership and the business side of AVs is very interesting
because how do you get to customers? I think Waymo, you know, obviously they've shown that a lot of
people will download their app, but they were the first one. Are you going to download, you know,
you got Uber, you got Lyft, you're going to download Waymo, you're going to download Tesla,
you're going to download Zooks, and then all these other players that are coming, you know,
just behind. So you think Waymo beats out the others because they're first mover, maybe?
So I think Waymo definitely has a big advantage, you know, being first. And I would say that
because they're first, you know, they kind of get the operations foothold, they get the customer
foothold. And but at the same time, like they're only doing 500,000 trips a week. And, you know,
we know from, you know, all of the cost of hardware and software, right? Like Rivian is way behind
Tesla, but they're going to get to where Tesla is a lot quicker than it took Tesla, right? Just
because of the nature of hardware and software and the whole industry. And so I kind of,
I'm a little torn, like part of me thinks like, man, if I was Waymo, I'd be pouring fire on the
gas, you know, gas on the fire right now, trying to, you know, launch as many vehicles as I can.
I'm telling you, like, this is, this is the, this is the Jaguar's done with IPA. They're hardware
limited. That's why they're switching to Hyundai. And that plant, by the way, they make 100,000
vehicles a year. That plant can make 500,000 vehicles a year. There's nothing but capacity
sitting there. But I mean, what happens in the next few years, while it takes to ramp that up?
I mean, you've got Tesla, you've got, I mean, there's a lot of very well funded competitors.
And so yeah, I do think that Waymo is going to be around for a while and likely, you know,
not exactly a huge bet to say that Waymo is going to be the number one AV company in five years,
because they're the only one and leading right now. But I do think there are, Uber is kind of
taking the opposite bet. They're taking the bet that all of these other AV companies are going
to want to come onto the Uber network. And you, instead of calling a Waymo, you're going to call
an Uber, Uber AV, and you're going to get whatever you get. That's a smart bet.
And that's the bet that they're making. It's why they dismantled, because remember,
both Lyft and Uber had AV departments. They decided it was too much investment and they
spun them off into a lot of these companies. So let me get back. And also, I dispute your,
both their contention that just because Tesla had a Rivian's necessary going to be faster,
Tesla's had the lead on a whole bunch of things for a lot of the car companies still have not
yet figured out how to do well. OTA, charging, only recently did everyone realize that, oh,
Naxx is better than this other plug. Naxx, it was just there, yeah.
But what I'm saying is like, okay, Grok, we hear you.
But you've, so you've been in all of the, I've been trying like hell to get into Zooks.
Well, I've got a lot of friends. I think you gotta know someone. So next time you go to San
Francisco, I can get you in a Zooks notebook. Which one do you personally feel of the three,
like Tesla, RoboTaxi, because it uses video, video only. Yeah.
And then Zooks and Waymo are using LiDAR, ultrasonic cameras, like the full sensor suite.
Which do you prefer? I prefer Waymo for sure. I mean, I think just from a customer perspective,
availability perspective, also just kind of, I always joke in my newsletter, like my bar
is basically paid driverless rides. Like Tesla is great and it's fun and I took the ride,
but they still got a guy sitting in the car, okay, in Texas, they've done a few driverless rides.
But you know, when you start taking ownership of the liability and the risk, like when your Tesla
self-driving car hits someone and kills some kid, unfortunately, and you know, it's a mega lawsuit,
$15 million, and you take that risk, that's when I'll pay attention, right? Because that's kind
of where you're putting your money, where your mouth is. Waymo has obviously done that.
That being said, you know, I don't love the Jaguar I-Pace. I usually sit in the front seat.
I think the back seat's pretty uncomfortable for a $70,000 car. I mean, it's an expensive car, right?
MSRP, $65,000 or $70,000. And so I usually sit in the front seat. I'm 6'3", so I kind of need
the leg room. I'm looking forward to trying, they've got the, they call it the Ohai vehicle,
which is the Chinese Zeekr vehicle coming, the Hyundai Ioniq, which I think is actually a pretty
solid, low-cost car, and that's, you know, where I think the industry is trending. They're trending
towards, you know, lower-cost EVs, AVs, and so... Nice car, big back seat, 300 miles of range.
I think it's a perfect use case for... Yeah, no, I think it's kind of the perfect AV,
and so I'm excited to sort of, I think especially, it may not be my favorite car personally, but I
think from a business, you know, case, a use point, I think that's sort of, you know, where
Waymo's going to be able to make a lot of strides. So I think that's kind of, you know,
Waymo is definitely there for me right now. And for the record, you think an autonomous vehicle
has to have LiDAR? I don't think that it has to have LiDAR, but I think that, you know,
simplistically, coming from my engineering background, right, cameras and LiDAR, you know,
kind of gives you that extra depth of vision field. I mean, Waymo shares videos every week on
their social media, where there's spotting kids coming out from behind buses, and, you know,
like physically, if you can't see it, right? I agree with you 100% except that. I just,
they have, I told you this with a cyber beast, and I was driving, you know, I was in Mad Max
mode, and it's speeding, and it's night at night, and I'm taking my kid, and, you know, we're going
46 and 35, no one's on the road, black and dark out, and just slams on the brakes, and I'm like,
God damn, and then I look, family of skunks, five or six skunks in a row, black from the side,
and it saw it, and I would have killed the skunks in any other vehicle, so.
Well, so is that a good thing or a bad thing? That's a great thing. So these cameras are pretty
good, but. Oh, I'm definitely not saying that the cameras are, and I think that's kind of what,
I think people get a little caught up in the argument, like, I think that LiDAR, radar,
and cameras is better, right? Cameras only is not as good, but cheaper, but if they can get
there over time by training the model, by data, right, like, I'm definitely not saying, I think
that's actually, I would say that's actually gonna happen, it's just how long it takes,
that would be my, I think it will happen eventually, I just don't know how long it's
gonna take. My argument is, just what you said was, is liability, so, you know, Tesla, even though
they have this full self-driving, which it works, it works. Yeah, it's great. It's level two, meaning
that you're still liable as the person behind the wheel, and, and I think it was a whole larger
thing. I think, I love, I love full self-driving, but like, man, do I not want to pay attention to
driving when it, when it's doing full self-driving. Well, I mean, I was driving my Tesla, you know,
a year ago, before I traded in for my Morivian, and I was on Mulholland, and, you know, just
played around to golf, and I was cruising, and not really paying attention, and slammed right into
the curb on Mulholland, and I, I didn't even think that was possible on full self-driving, and of
course, you know, huge gash in the rim, and had to pay 500 bucks to get it fixed up, and, you know,
I mean, that's my fault, but I was like, that wasn't my fault, you know. No, no, but, but,
my point is, I think, I think that full self-driving is going to make people worse drivers.
Well, and I think, yeah, this is the argument, argument that, you know, I think
actually comes from the aviation world, right, that like, if the automated systems get so good,
that when you start, you know, not really paying attention or not doing as much training, when
you do need to take over, you're not ready, and aviation is one thing, but like, on the road,
it's a lot more instantaneous, right, that you might need to take over, and so that's obviously,
you know, between the level 234 that's kind of the arguments that the, you know,
safety experts would make. Yeah, so three, like Mercedes right now, you know, they, they will
sell you a level three car, and I think it's actually going to level four, they assume the
liability, and Tesla won't do that. And so that's sort of, to me, like, when I-
Oh, that part's unclear. What do you mean?
How's that unclear? No, the part, I think-
Crystal clear. No, no, no. That's, this, I think, is the fallacy, is assuming, the main fallacy
is assuming Tesla's going to follow the rules. What, since when?
No, but I'm saying, if they won't assume the liability, that to your point, like-
They're already starting to, they're building cybercaps already, which don't have a steering
wheel, they're going to be rolled out, and there's been no-
Well, we're not talking about cybercaps, we're talking about the AV car.
That's not Thomas' vehicle. Yeah, I'm gay, for me.
But I'm saying, for the, for the customer-
I'm saying, there's been no, there's been no evidence that they have, they have a solution.
Half agreeing with you, but half disagreeing with you.
We believe there's the, the SAE, like, level one through five-
Tesla won't follow, they already said they won't follow.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, so-
But announcing that's bad.
Well, again, that's where I'm, that's where I think it's, that remains to be seen.
I think for me, when I look at Tesla, like, I'm not a Tesla expert, so when I look at Tesla,
and we've done a lot of coverage of Tesla, I try to look at the objective numbers, the objective,
I just had the CPC director, and it kind of made news on my podcast, because she went and said
on my podcast that-
The Taylor Product Safety Commission.
California Public Utilities Commission.
So they're the ones who regulate ride, hail, AV, Uber, and Lyft.
And she basically said, Tesla actually doesn't have a robotaxi permit in California from CPC or DMV.
They are basically driving around with the same TCP license that an Uber and Lyft driver,
commercial has, black driver, Uber, Uber black driver has, but with full self-driving supervise on.
And that's fine. You could argue, you know, oh, they're here, they're there, whatever.
I'm just looking at, that's the legal definition.
They could be doing it with it or without it.
And then that's why I look to the liability.
How many cars do they have on the road?
How many rides are they doing?
Are they getting sued?
Are they paying?
And so it's sort of, you know, like, obviously it's fun to pontificate on it,
but I do think there are, you know, a lot of objective, you know, metrics or facts about Tesla
and some of the AV, you know, even Waymo.
We do a lot of coverage.
We just published an article about the CPC data.
They actually have to release trip data every single quarter.
And Waymo's growth, you know, is flattening in California over the past quarter.
They were going up 14,000 trips a month.
And the most recent month, it was only 2,000 trips per month.
A lot of people say, I think it's because they don't have a lot of vehicles right now.
They're expanding all these new markets.
That's a real problem.
No, it was not.
They have that iconic.
They don't have a lot of those.
I know, it's not quite yet.
There's people who actually take pictures of the Waymo factory from drones, you know,
in Macy, you know, like they do with Tesla and everyone.
And you can see every month, like, there's almost no Jaguar iPaces left.
I don't know.
There's a lot of OHIs.
I'm actually really surprised that they haven't released the OHIs yet to customers.
Driver six, OHIs.
Yeah, these blue minivan.
OHIs, Waymo, Driver six.
We'll see.
I'm excited.
I'm excited.
Driver six hasn't been signed off yet.
So they're doing driverless rides for employees.
So I've seen one.
I took a picture of one without a driver in LA a few weeks ago.
But customers, paying customers, can't get in there.
Because, I'm telling you, I know a little bit about this.
Yeah.
The software is not finished.
It's not finished.
Got it.
Driver five.
And I don't think the, five will either.
So right now they're this weird, you know, they're trying to finish driver six.
You're talking about Waymo.
Waymo Driver six.
Yes.
So right now the Jag uses what's called Waymo Driver five.
Got it.
And then, yeah, so the software is not quite done.
But it's going to be what I've heard, like really good, like really, really good.
Very cool.
They're really going to really take advantage of the fact that, man, we got cameras pointed
everywhere.
I mean, Waymo's, I took my first Waymo freeway ride, you know, a couple months ago.
So Waymo's going the freeway on the 10 and four or five freeway now.
That's right.
It definitely, you know, opens up the operating domain.
I mean, I think this is actually one of the, you know, again, there's a lot of battling
viewpoints or, you know, experiences.
Like it's good and bad.
Waymo's great.
But a lot of times I open the Waymo app here in LA.
I've seen no cars available.
Like I don't think I've ever, I haven't seen that on Uber in 10 years, right?
That's not a great customer experience.
A lot of times I see 15 minute ETAs.
If you, you know, sometimes it won't get on the freeway for whatever reason.
And so, you know, I think that operating domain that Waymo has is great for the early adopters,
the people who love tech, they love Waymo.
But I do think the average, I call it the average ride share customer that I'm very familiar with.
I don't think they're going to put up with that.
That's where I think these partnerships with Uber and Lyft make a lot more sense.
Hey, when it's really busy and you really want to pay a lot of money for a Waymo,
book it with Waymo, give me a lot of money.
But if it's not that busy, Uber and Lyft, hey, you know, I got the perfect ride for you.
Why don't you try an AV right now?
We'll only charge you, you know, we'll give you 10% off.
It's going to be in a great operating domain.
It's going to, you know, we're going to kind of ensure success for this AV, you know,
and do you want it?
Yes or no.
And I think a lot of people will say yes and they'll take it and try it.
And, you know, it'll be a little more symbiotic that way.
Okay.
Well, we're over time, but I want to finish.
I want to bring it back to the ride share guy.
Not the little delivery bots?
No, we'll have him on a talk.
We can talk about that later.
But this is, I want to leave the audience with some actionable insights also because
I'm sort of somewhat curious myself.
If you want or curious, if you were an Uber or Lyft driver curious,
can you provide the optimum, and I know you're like, well, go to my site and read upon it.
No, I'll tell you the answer right now.
So, Cribsheet, if you wanted to get into the business and make a lot of money,
what vehicle?
What car?
Yeah, what car should they consider?
What kind of, I think you already mentioned like, you know, short routes, cherry picking as a tactic.
All of that and also the flip side, because this is where I was, I've been thinking like,
should I buy, the used EV market is on fire right now.
Should I go buy a $15,000 Model 3 and then rent it out to as an Uber?
Is this a good idea?
Can you call out some sweet spots in terms of a side hustle?
So, I think that in general, anything high miles per gallon doesn't even have to be a hybrid.
It could be, you know, like, I've always loved the Asian made cars, you know, Hyundai, Toyota,
Lexus, right?
So, that's sort of what I'm most familiar with.
But anything high MPG, reliable, I love those cars.
If you can get hybrid, great.
You know, a lot of the fleet owners are rent cars to Uber and Lyft drivers.
They typically go for two to three year old used cars.
So, you're a little bit past the initial depreciation.
So, kind of find that sweet spot.
If you've got good credit, get good financing, whatever it is.
Kind of get the best deal you can on a high MPG car.
Are you not saying EVs?
40 miles per gallon or more?
Yeah, 40 or more.
You're not saying EVs.
You're saying EVs.
So, that would be kind of my advice on the vehicle side.
EVs are great, but you have to have somewhere to charge it, right?
Supercharging is crazy expensive now, the price.
And, you know, even just charging, I just charged my Rivian at, you know, one of the
other I can even remember.
It was the first time I ever did it at one of the other networks.
I don't even know what they're called.
One of the big ones.
Yeah, one of them.
And I was, like, shocked how expensive.
Man, that's a big battery.
I was, like, shocked.
It was, like, crazy and expensive.
And, all right, never going to forget to charge it again at home.
But if you have a house with solar, great deal to get an EV.
So, that's sort of the kind of tree on the EVs.
If you have good deal on a used EV and you can charge at home, or if you have solar at home,
you're going to kill it.
You're going to make, you know, a lot of money, basically, and have very low expenses.
And so, then, you know, from there, your driving style would basically be driving
during the busiest time.
So, that would be Friday, Saturday night.
We call those the party hours, holidays, weekends.
If you don't want to deal with the drunks, you can also drive the busy hours during the week,
rush hour.
You can also do early morning airport runs.
You kind of find that sweet spot.
Early morning is nice.
You know, if you're a mornings person, no traffic, long trips.
If you have that EV, think about it.
So, you kind of have to mix a lot of those factors.
I mean, I even did an article once that Uber has a really cool,
Uber and Lyft have a cool feature where they basically allow you to set your destination
as a driver.
So, if I'm going to go home right now across town, I set that as my destination.
I'll only get trips headed in that direction.
And all of that mileage is now deductible.
So, I did this article where I basically only drove around.
When I was going to a meeting, I would leave 30 minutes early from my scheduled time,
do a few trips along the way.
And I might only make 20 bucks, but I would get to deduct, you know,
the IRS federal mileage rate, 67 cents or whatever it is now, right?
And it would actually offset all of my earnings.
So, if I make on an hourly basis, 30 bucks an hour,
even though I'm only doing a few trips, but you can kind of compare that to like your
after tax earnings.
It's like 40 or 50.
So, there's kind of some cool strategy you can do if you're a hustler and you kind of
want to optimize for success.
I think that's a great way to end it.
Yeah, very cool.
Because if you are at all interested in any part of the gig economy that involves
driving or deliveries, delivering food, Uber, Lyft, Uber Eats, DoorDash,
Harry Campbell's the guy.
You can find him at the Right Sure Guy.
Just Google it.
He's also on YouTube.
If you don't like humans, but are interested in cars that drive themselves,
he's also got, he got you covered too with the driverless digest.
Maybe soon to be renamed the driverless guide.
I don't know how it's going to be.
TVD, I'm going to watch the YouTube video and hopefully I can get a little feedback from your
viewers.
Okay, yours.
Oh, okay.
Leave a comment.
So, I've got a YouTube channel.
Don't worry right now.
Yeah, oh.
Drop some comments in.
I think we should have Harry on again.
We didn't talk about delivery robots.
Why have we?
We didn't talk about Kerber War either, which we need to talk about.
Just one more little thing.
I was curious as to this.
Hit me.
Okay.
The Rivian said to us that they don't see people buying Rivians to get back to this question
and using them as, as robotaxis.
They said, yeah, we just don't see people doing that.
Do you, do you, how do you feel that the Ed's, should I buy a used TV and rent it out?
Is that insane?
Insurance kills it?
Well, I mean, I guess if it's an AV, hopefully insurance shouldn't kill it, right?
Because they're going to be a lot safer.
I think that Ed's model of renting it out to everyone.
There's a lot of people that do it.
It's, there's a lot of demand for that from humans, but it's a tough business.
So you really kind of have to know what you're doing and probably operate at higher levels
of scale, I think, to make it work.
But I think when it comes to personally owned AVs, I think this is actually going to happen
because it solves the limited supply, right?
Waymo, all of those issues that I talked about earlier, it's because they have a fleet
of 3,000 vehicles Tuesday afternoon and Saturday night when demand is five to 10x,
they also have a fleet of 3,000 vehicles, right?
So do you, do you size your fleet to peak demand or average demand?
This is like surge, like all of a sudden it's like, yeah, okay, we can take the family car.
Right, and that's kind of what Uber unlocked and that's so valuable.
They have variable supply, right?
They use surge pricing to get me out on the road.
When I'm not on the road, they don't have to pay for my car.
They don't have to pay for me to charge.
They don't have to pay for maintenance.
And so that's where I think the personal, yeah, great for Uber, right?
That's why they made $3 billion last quarter.
So I think that's where the personal robot taxi is going to come into play because
there's going to be an economic trading point where maybe I don't want to put my car on the
platform, but if I can make $500 in one night on New Year's Eve, that pays for my whole AV.
Take it to a depot that cleans it for me, it comes back.
I actually, you know, I know some people who like to rent their house out from movie shoots
here in LA.
And they kind of like it because at the end of the day, they get like a full deep cleaning.
It actually, it's cleaner at the end of a shoot than it was at the beginning.
So I think we'll see those personal robot taxis in the future for sure.
We'll check back with you.
Fascinating.
Very cool.
Well, Harry Campbell, thank you.
Thanks for coming on the show.
All right, thanks guys.
All right.
About this episode
Gig drivers and their earnings get a full breakdown—how they optimize pickups, deal with costs like gas and insurance, and even navigate scams and platform rules. The conversation then pivots to robotaxis: Waymo’s scaling, safety-data claims, software versions, and real-world edge cases, plus why availability and wait times still matter. Along the way, they compare business models, pricing opacity, and what it could mean for driver pay and the future of mobility.
Harry Campbell, founder of The Rideshare Guy, reveals how Uber and Lyft drivers maximize earnings, what gig work really pays, and why Waymo, Zoox and Tesla robotaxis could reshape mobility within five years.
