Formula One is the highest level of race car competition in the world. Drivers race specialized single-seat cars on tracks around the globe, and teams compete all season for titles.
The 24 Hours of Le Mans is a legendary endurance race held annually in France. It’s famous for its multi-class racing and for rewarding consistency over an entire day, which is why Tom Kristensen’s nine wins are such a standout achievement.
Hamilton is one of the most successful Formula One drivers in recent history. The host is using him as an example of the top-level competition in today’s F1.
Sports car racing is racing with cars built for endurance and team events. The speaker is saying he stayed in that world instead of going straight to Formula 1.
German Formula 3 was a stepping-stone racing series for young drivers. Winning it meant you were one of the fastest up-and-coming racers in that country.
Formula 3000 was a racing series for up-and-coming drivers. It was one of the main places drivers went to prove themselves before trying to reach Formula 1.
Young driver academies are training programs run by F1 teams. They help promising drivers get experience and support so they can eventually reach Formula 1.
It’s a top-level racing license for karting. Think of it as the official credential that allows a driver to compete at the highest karting level and get the right access at big events.
Eddie Jordan is a well-known figure in racing who helps young drivers get chances. The speaker says Jordan was one of the people pushing hardest to get him into higher-level opportunities.
Super Touring was a type of race series for cars based on models you could buy. The speaker is saying he chose that path instead of taking a short F1 deal.
Term
half a season
A “half a season” means you only race for part of the year. In racing, that kind of deal is often tied to sponsorship money and can be harder to secure without funding.
Car
BMW
BMW is the car company mentioned here. Kristensen is talking about BMW working with Williams in racing around 2000.
“Grain” means the tire starts to wear in a rough way on the surface. When that happens, the tire often grips worse, so lap times can slow down after a short while.
In this context, “mileage” means how much the engine has been used. Teams track it because engines wear out, and they may need to replace them during a test or race weekend.
“Three sets” means using three different sets of tires during the test. That lets the team see how the tires behave over time and across multiple runs.
“G-forces” tell you how hard the car is accelerating compared to gravity. When you brake hard or pull through a corner, your body feels heavier (or lighter) because of that acceleration.
A “tyre manufacturer” is the brand making the race tires. Different brands can make tires that grip differently, so teams and drivers often have to adapt to the tire supplier they’re using.
Bridgestone is a tire brand that also competes in racing. Different tire brands can behave differently, so teams try to get the best results with the tires they’re using.
Goodyear is a tire brand. The speaker is saying it had recently stopped being involved, which matters because tire behavior affects how fast and how stable cars feel.
Seat fitting is the process of adjusting the driver’s seating position and cockpit ergonomics so the driver can reach controls comfortably and generate consistent steering/braking inputs. In F1, small changes in seat height, recline, and alignment can affect visibility, pedal reach, and how effectively the driver can hold the car through corners.
Motion sickness is when you feel sick because your body and your eyes disagree about how you’re moving. Simulators can trigger it because you see motion on-screen, but you’re not really experiencing the same physical movement.
Inertia is how much the car “pushes back” when you try to change its speed or direction. If the sim models inertia well, it feels more like the real car when you brake, accelerate, or turn.
The throttle is the driver’s control of engine power by regulating airflow/fuel delivery. In racing, “getting on the throttle earlier” can change traction and weight transfer, which may cause the car to rotate or run wide if the tires aren’t ready for the sudden torque.
Goodwood is a well-known UK motorsport venue/estate where lots of historic and enthusiast racing happens. It’s a common destination for drivers after their F1 careers.
Term
Landau Seat
It sounds like a special seat setup made to fit the driver. The point is to make sure the driver can reach the pedals and sit properly, even if they’re bigger than the person the seat was originally set up for.
A young driver program is a team’s way of developing future race drivers. If you’re in McLaren’s program, you usually get coaching and chances to test so you can be ready for racing later.
“Soft tires” are race tires made to grip the road really well. They usually don’t last as long as harder tires, so teams use them when they want the car to be at its best for a shorter time.
“Turn four” is the name of a particular corner on the track. He’s saying it’s especially scary because it goes downhill and if you mess up, you can end up in the gravel.
“Turn nine” is another specific corner on the track. He’s describing it as a right-hand turn that crests, and saying it’s physically intense and requires real commitment to drive cleanly.
The “monocoque” is the main safety structure of the race car—the rigid shell that the driver sits inside. He’s saying the car’s forces were so strong that his body felt pressed right against that structure.
Here “offset” means the car feels a bit shifted or not perfectly centered as you go through the corner. He’s saying that’s where the driving felt most challenging.
Ground effect is how the car’s bottom creates a low-pressure area near the track. That helps pull the car down for better grip, but it can be affected by disturbed air.
Bouncing is when the car starts moving up and down over the track. On modern F1 cars, that can mess with the airflow under the car and make grip drop suddenly.
In racing, brakes are about more than stopping—they’re about how controllable and consistent the car feels when slowing down. Good brakes help the driver brake hard without upsetting the car.
The gearbox is what changes the gear ratios so the engine can deliver the right power. In an F1 car, it has to shift smoothly and quickly to keep the car balanced.
DRS is a system that makes the car less “draggy” for a short time, usually to help it go faster for passing. Drivers have to use it at the right moment and still keep the car stable.
Sebring is another famous endurance race track in the U.S. Drivers and teams have to keep the car performing for a long time, not just go fast briefly.
A stint is the time a driver spends driving before switching to another driver. Stint time matters because endurance races are won by strategy and keeping the car in good shape.
A SIM is a racing computer simulator that lets drivers practice a track virtually. The point here is that he didn’t have that kind of practice data before going to Le Mans.
Wheel bearings are parts that let your wheels spin smoothly. If they fail, the wheel can get unsafe fast—especially in a long race where everything is under constant load.
“Low drag” means the car is shaped to push through the air with less resistance. That can help it go faster and use less energy, but it can affect how the car behaves and stays cool.
In racing, “near misses” refers to results that were close to winning or podiums but didn’t quite happen. It’s a way of tallying how often a team was competitive but was prevented by incidents, reliability issues, or strategy.
“On the limit” means the driver is pushing the car as hard as it can safely go. In a long race, that’s tough because you have to keep doing it consistently even as you get tired.
“Overshoot” means you go too far—like braking too late or turning in too late. In a race, that can make you miss the corner and potentially crash or lose a lot of time.
In long races, it’s not enough for parts to work once—they have to keep working for hours. Teams focus on making sure important components don’t fail under stress.
In endurance races, you’re often sharing the track with lots of different cars. Passing many cars each lap makes driving harder because you have to avoid mistakes while still staying fast.
Racing at night is harder because it’s harder to see clearly and judge distances. Drivers rely more on headlights and the other cars’ lights to know where everyone is.
Floodlights are the very bright lights that light up the track at night. When they’re better, drivers can see more clearly and feel more confident in traffic.
The Ford F-150 Lightning is a pickup truck that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. It’s meant to look and work like a regular F-150, but with a battery and electric motor. It comes up in discussions because it shows how pickup trucks are changing over time.
The apex is the inside point of a turn that drivers try to hit. Getting it right helps the car turn smoothly and get out of the corner faster.
Concept
protest of endurance
This is talking about endurance racing as a team effort. Everyone has to work together—drivers, strategy, and communication—so the car stays fast and reliable for a long time.
Audi is a car brand that races in motorsport. Here they’re talking about Audi deciding to join Formula 1 and how it fit with their bigger racing plans.
“New regulation” means the racing rules changed. When that happens, teams often have to redesign parts of the car, which can change who has the advantage.
Hinwil (spelled “Hinville” in the transcript) is in Switzerland and is known for Sauber’s Formula One facilities. The speaker is referencing that location when talking about how the team was organized.
Neuburg is a place in Germany where Audi’s engine work is based. The speaker is saying the engine facility there is part of Audi’s broader motorsport setup.
Alan McNish is a racing driver who later worked in team leadership. In this segment, they’re talking about whether he’s interested in joining a team and what he’s done before.
DTM is a German racing series for touring cars. They bring it up to show McNish has experience outside of just sports car racing.
Person
Dr. Ulleck
Dr. Ulleck is mentioned as a person who led Audi’s racing program in the past. The speaker is using that history to explain where the team’s expertise comes from.
Stefan Dreyer is described as the person in charge of the engines at Neuburg. They mention he’s also a racer, implying he understands racing demands firsthand.
Monaco refers to the Monaco Grand Prix setting, known for a tight street circuit with little margin for error. Because it’s so twisty and low-speed, small setup and tire choices can swing results quickly.
GT3 racing is a type of race series for sports cars. The cars are based on real models you can buy, but they’re modified for racing and run under rules that keep competition fairly even.
Porsche is a well-known German sports-car brand. It also has a strong racing presence, especially in endurance and GT events.
Person
Hültenberg
Hültenberg is a racing driver who competes in endurance and sports-car events. The host is pointing out that drivers can earn respect through GT racing too.
The host is asking whether driving different kinds of race cars helps drivers get better. The thought is that each car teaches different skills, so the driver improves faster overall.
LIVE
I'm certainly fast. I'm committed. I certainly have some of my dad's DNA in me. There was
a lot of the determination of doing him proud, doing myself proud and doing my team proud
because every time I was in a racing car, I was always depending on somebody making
that happen. These I never forget. Fast? Definitely. A winner? Repeatedly. In the 1990s,
Tom Christensen seemed destined for Formula One. They were interested in me and they offered me
half a season. My mom and family always said, if you risk too much, don't do it. And I think I was
a little bit not ruthless enough, I would say, because many people would say I should have done it.
It never happened. Instead, he stood on other podiums, including the top step at the Le Mans 24
hours, a record nine times. I'm Tom Clarkson and this F1 Beyond the Grid is about what might have
been for Tom Christensen. How he was on the same path as Michael Schumacher. The times he came close
to an F1 drive. The risky offer he wasn't willing to take. And why he was so successful in sports
cars. And Tom talks about the day he impressed a world champion in a modern F1 car.
Tom, it's great to have you on the show. How are you? Very good and happy to be here, Tom.
Well, you're known as Mr. Le Mans and rightly so after your nine victories there. But can we start
by talking about Formula One? And my first question to you is how much would you like to be out there
now doing battle with the likes of Verstappen, Alonzo, Hamilton? Of course, you would love that.
In general, my dream and ambition as a very young was always going towards Formula One,
no doubt. But seeing how well it's going today, Formula One has grown. All the drivers, all the
teams, it's really fascinating seeing how many followers there is around the world. And yeah,
I think Stefano and his team are doing a fabulous job. But yes, the racing, the core racing, being
in the cars, that's what you will always have as a racing driver. But I'm a little bit over my
birth certificate for that now to be realistic. But TK, I want to take you back to the 90s,
okay? Because I remember back then headlines saying that you were the best driver not to be
racing in Formula One. Do you remember those headlines? Yes, and I absolutely was very happy
about that, to be seen as the best not to have started in a Grand Prix in a way.
But my career was, it was always parallel. Like the whole ecosystem, I believe is a little bit
parallel. Formula One has grown tremendously over these years and so has sports cars as well and
the whole racing community in many ways. But there was a lot of links to Formula One. There
were several testing, but I always stayed around the sports car racing and that was my path.
Was it the case of right talent, wrong time for you? Because you won the German Formula
3 Championship in 1991. Schumacher won that championship the year before and look what
happened to him. What happened to you as the German Formula 3 Champion? Were there lots of
offers from F1 teams? Not a lot of offers. When I won the German F3, there was more or less going
towards Formula 3000. But it was very inspirational about Schumacher, Schumacher Heckenen. I beat
their lab record at Hockenheim the following year when they had their great battle in Formula 3.
So I was very inspired by all that. But I went to Japan. I stayed several years in Japan driving
all kinds of cars in Japan and I owed a lot to Japan about the whole thing. Education of life,
I believe. I really loved Japan, but it was also a step away from Formula One, even though I was
linked to several kind of opportunities. But it's a different time. I didn't have any budget at all.
I'm kind of trying to be a modest boy, but I'm certainly from a humble background,
born on a gas station in Hobro, Denmark. My dad was a racing driver, a hard one,
particularly in touring cars or even rallycross things like that. As he always said,
don't hit the others, but touching is fine. And that was kind of always the commitment I went
into racing with. My time in Japan was fascinating, but just touching on Schumacher, I believe we
were a little bit parallel in the way of he really did well in Formula One. And at the same time,
I was part of winning teams in sports car racing. So in that sense, I have been very inspired of
having more or less the same generation as Michael. Because there wasn't, TK, there wasn't the amount
of young driver academies back then. I mean, Schumacher actually was part of the first one
with Mercedes, but were F1 teams back then reaching out for young people to take through to F1
in the way that Mercedes were? No, I love what the academies are doing now, looking. I mean,
it's very hard if you're really a strong driver. It's very hard to be overlooked by the academies
today. Back then, it was a little bit more, let's say, the F1 world was, the first time I went into
the F1 paddock. It was on my CIK FIA super license for karting. That took me everywhere in Hockenheim.
And you can know even in Hockenheim, being very strict with the ticket, took it into the paddock.
But there I was just having my go-kart license and I went in and I talked to several teams already
in those years. But I would say who was very good at motivating young drivers? That was Eddie Jordan.
Eddie was always telling me he needs me and at one point it will happen. But of course,
there was always money involved, which I never had. But it was also a motivating factor. So I'll
say him and his team was probably the one reaching out the most. Then late over the years, not speaking
chronologically, I was testing for Minardi in the winter in Barcelona a few times.
What era are we talking now? Now we are talking, it must be 97, I think, maybe 96, 97, something
like that, 98 maybe. I remember interviewing Esteban Tuero, who was a Minardi driver in 98.
Yeah, I tested with Luca Badoa at that time. But I had just signed with Honda in super touring and
BMW full-among. So it must have been 97, 98. But Tom, if you'd already signed for BMW at Le Mans,
why did Minardi put you in the F1 car? Yeah, they were interested in me and they offered
me half a season. But half a season and then I'm a little bit more, you know, I'm an educated bank
clerk actually. So my mom and family always said, if you risk too much, don't do it. And I think I
was a little bit not ruthless enough, I would say, because many people would say I should have done it
and then have half a season and see what happens after half a year, where I should sign, I would
bring. I think at that time it was in the region of a little bit below $2 million. Where were you
going to find $2 million though? Yeah, I couldn't, but I mean, I kindly declined, did super touring,
went to Le Mans with BMW, had two fantastic years with them. My biggest near miss was actually 99
with BMW, where all the manufacturers were there the race of the century. And we were leading by
three and a half laps with Müller and later, when we, a few hours to the end, we retired. We were
still leading 17 minutes after that. So that was a hard blow. But good things happened later that
year. It was testing for Williams. Were you part of the conversation when BMW were coming into F1
with Williams in 2000? I was never at any, let's say, meeting in that sense. But I knew from,
as Williams were building the chassis for the Le Mans cars for BMW, I speak very fondly at that
time with Patrick Heert, John Russell. Those guys were very much in favor of me and that call that
when Frank called me, I know, hey, Christensen, I need you to test the FW21 at Magnecour. Can
you? Things like that just stays in memory. He was the one who was very close to giving me the
chance back then. But Williams were the team in the 90s. And then they had this dip in the end
of the 90s. Obviously, this was now with a mega chrome deal when I was testing. And then with
BMW, they came in. Michelin came in. A lot of things were good. Michelin was pushing me.
Michelin was going in with the groove tires. And I was doing a lot of testing there with them and
their chassis. So I would say in those years, if I had had better funding management,
clearly I would have been in. But there was a lot of drivers around. Montoya, Ralph Schumacher,
John Carer, Jensen Button. So it was obviously on the other side also tough competition. But that
was where I think it could have been in one of these meetings, could have gone one way or the other.
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Can you tell us about that Williams test at Manicor? What was the car like to drive? How did
you get on in the groove tires? I mean, as the Nardi had come over from America and struggled
with the groove tires, how did you find it? The first test there was actually when Sanadi,
I think they had decided that he should not continue the great man. And then I was testing
then in Manicor between the races in the East, I think before the Japanese Grand Prix. I had it
okay with the groove tires, but it was nobody was fan of them. So obviously with Michelin,
what we were trying to do was particularly of nursing out that sensation of one or two very
good laps. And then they would normally grain and you will drop off and lose lap time before you
would then it will clean up and you will come back. That was more or less what it was all about,
particularly at the front, so obviously. So they had the disadvantages, but there was clearly a
mission for Michelin and from me testing. Actually, it was overseen by Pascal Barcelona
in those days. And we got on pretty well. And I think at the end of the day, Michelin did a
great job when they were in Formula One with what you say, a difficult regulation change to kind of
slow down the cars a little bit. Tell us about the Michelin testing that you did. What chassis
were they? What car were you driving? I was driving a White Williams chassis. So obviously that
was again the FW21. There was a Bibendum on it and we were testing on on circuits free testing
where there was only marshals and an ambulance and the North as a team. So kind of secret.
Car was brilliant. They were, what is it, 560 kilos? Yeah, like that. V10.
They were just every break, lunch break particularly, they would change the engine. They used engines.
This is in year 2000. They used engines from the team was already having at the Grand Prix,
which had some mileage left. And I can believe and tell you, they went below a mileage of 400
kilometers. So you can see sometimes they were going down to about 350 kilometers,
then they would go for a renovation. So obviously they had an engine with 180 kilometers left.
They will put it in and I would go, they would say, all right, you will go for a long run with
these three sets. And Michelin wanted to do three times 20 laps and engine people would say,
can we cut that to 15 laps each? And then they will make an agreement of maybe 18 laps. And of
course, on the third stand, it could happen. It was three times, three spirit engineers were pushing
limits by on and with these cars being so agile, so light, it was a fantastic time. And I've just
been, I mean, just thinking about it, that was a really, really good time to have entered Formula
1. And I would love to have done it because it became a bit more, I was in sports car racing,
the top speeds were the same, the braking points, things like that in the G-forces were pretty
similar to Le Mans because Le Mans was free spirit as well. But in the slower corners where F1 car
there with that light body mass was really inspiring to drive. What a great opportunity for
a young driver like you at the time, though, to be doing all that testing for Michelin.
How much did the tyres evolve in the time that you were testing? That was all about the groove
tyres. So they evolved definitely. There was also free spirit, a little bit about the, let's say,
the rubber which was being kind of used because, remember, it was a competition. I mean, what it
was all about was there was a Michelin team, there was the Bridgestone teams, and Goodyear had just
left. So the whole environment was about who would match up to have the right tyre manufacturer
at times. And what was good was Ferrari, as you remember, very exclusive with Mercedes at times,
with Bridgestone. So they had to prove their way in, and that was particularly done with Williams,
with Jaguar as well, where I also tested. Because what happened that year when I was testing with
Michelin was I had just won some races with BMW, but I switched to Audi. I have done the switch
to Audi, which, of course, in German terms would, at one stage, I think Gerhard Berger,
Mario Tyson, the great guys, they thought, all right, I think we need to let Tom go,
because he has gone to the other side. Did you know by going to Audi that you were letting
that opportunity go? Yeah, I probably did, because that should have happened that winter.
So in that sense, I thought I would look for an opportunity. I remember, I mean, Gerhard will
tell me now, he's a little bit laughing, because back then he said, are you crazy? You're going,
Audi, we were driving in circles around Audi. And I said, I had a good feeling. And I was honest
with him. I said, I went to Audi and I met Dr. Ulrich. He showed me the humble facility back
then, up near Ingolstadt. And he showed me a drawing of the car. And it was very inspiring. So
I signed. And then that following year, we, in Sebring, BMW was still there, but kind of
just for the American Le Mans series. And we were driving in circles around BMW.
TK, we're going to get on to the sports car era in a moment. There's one other thing I wanted
to ask you about was a couple of years ago, Zack Brown put you in the TPC McLaren at the Red Bull
ring, July 24, I think, wasn't it? No, September 3rd. It was September, was it? The day. But I
think in July, I was in the sim at the Woken. Can you just tell us about the whole process
and how, how Formula One had changed between the 90s and 2024? Zack Brown, he, more or less,
on the spot. Actually, during a live interview or shortly after, it was a little bit like, Tom,
when were you last in an F1 cockpit? And I started to look and count back and I said,
oh, that's many years ago. And he said, we need to change that. And off he went. And then,
then sometimes later, that winter, because this was in Abu Dhabi, then I think in January,
there was an email with, to me, Paul James and a few other people from McLaren on it. And then
he set it up and made it happen. I chose later in the year, I think there was kind of options
around, I believe, Silverstone and Red Bull ring. So he already made sure, which he said to me,
some tough circuits, because I need to test it in the toughest possible way. And then I think
Paul James said, okay, that's going to be Red Bull ring, especially sector two and sector three.
And then it was planned, I went to Woking in July, doing the seat fitting, doing some sim work with
the team. Can we break that down? Is the seat position in a Formula One car different to a
sports car? Not a lot. I think, actually, you sit a little bit more upright in the Formula
One car today than you did back in the early 90s. But you are laying down a little bit more in a
Formula One car. Of course, it's certainly more cramped. And actually, it's a bit more perfect
that around you, because a prototype, it is a two-seater in a way. So you are never, depending
on its right or left-hand drive, you normally, there's always one corner side where you are a
little bit less supported, where in your Formula One car, everything is built around just you.
And what about the sim? Did you use sims back in the day?
Not really. Towards the end of my career, we started to do a little bit of sim, and where
we actually used McLaren initially as a partner. So we were there a few times, and I think a few
of the drivers, Magneesh including, where we asked where was the closest toilet, because of the kind
of the drive sickness, the seat, what do you call it? Motion sickness. Yeah, so we asked about
where the toilet was, because motion sickness was suddenly also in play. But we didn't use
a lot of simulators. How did you find the McLaren one? I think McLaren was early on,
they were probably a little bit ahead in those in the game back then. But when I came in July,
now for testing this car, you could already feel in the sim that I would say, what is kind of the
topic which has already been worked on, that's the inertia of a car. So the weight of a Formula
One car, for me, is the main thing, which hopefully will come down in future as well.
In 2026, we are already 30 kilos lighter than the year. So the trend has changed, and I think we should
all applaud that. And certainly for the driving, you get a lot better feel out of a car, kind of
the lighter it is. But how well prepared were you for the real driving at the Red Bull Ring
because of the simulator? I trained a little bit up to it, then I came in the simulator,
and I think I was in it three times. The first time, I think Paul James was a little bit worried,
because I believe one of these crashes I had, I think I went off two or three times in the first
run in the morning, and one of them I think would have totaled the McLaren TBC car.
Then I had another one, which was not wild. What happened, DK?
What happened? I think one was I got on the kerb, another one I just got on the throttle earlier,
and another one I was braking too late. I think these were kind of the things.
Is that because you were struggling with the fail of the SEM, or were you just exploring the limits?
Yeah, probably that. And then just when you... I've not been in professional racing drive in 10
years. So I've gone, I love going to Goodwood, I love going to these things, more historic racing.
Once in a while out, it puts me in a good car for demo or something like that. But when you're out,
you are not in sync with the speed of a racing driver. But I was committed, and I think that's
what they could see. So the team helped me. So in the second run, it was pretty okay. Then we had
launch, then up, checked the seat again, as that was the first thing I did jump in the car, and
then later in the afternoon, I forgot which seat I think I used. used Landau Seat.
But hang on, you couldn't fit. You in Landau can fit in the same seat. I asked Paul James,
but he did. And I just needed the pedals a little bit, a little bit changed. And then I didn't need
the support they had on the sides, because obviously I am larger now than I used to be.
One of the biggest points is that you in your 50s are sitting in the same seat as Landau Norris.
Yeah. And I was also, I said the same. I said, I can't be in his seat. And then, trust me,
they said, he's larger than you think in some ways.
So take us to the Red Bull Ring now. Just the whole process of pulling out of the pit lane
for the first time. How did it feel? And don't be modest. How were the lap times?
Yeah, I mean modest. I mean, the thing was the third time after the launch, I was in the sim.
And I was just nine-tenths off the sim drivers, who are probably faster than the racing drivers
at McLaren. And they were quite impressed. But I remember, God bless Paul James when we
went out. I mean, he said, Tom, we're really, it's fantastic. We have you. You should really
enjoy it and enjoy it. It's a good opportunity for you as well. So kind of telling me, calm down, man.
You are in proper equipment here. So yes, he probably felt I was a little bit too committed.
So when we later went, this was end of July. So in beginning of September, we went to
Red Bull Ring. I had the opportunity of seeing another driver having his first test,
spending most of the day, which was kind of the proper test, obviously, a certain driver.
Well, wasn't that Gabriel Bortoletto? You mentioned it.
Yeah, because he was part of the McLaren Young Driver Program back then, yeah.
He had his first test and he was there doing all morning, doing the most part of the afternoon.
And then around 3pm, they swapped. And I got in the car and had my two, I think it was
five laps and then a break and then six laps. And that's what I had on one set of soft tires.
And it was absolutely brilliant. And I will always remember Saga asking me so late.
It's kind of made a full circle. It was good. It's fast.
What surprised you about the car?
To be in sync with the braking. And there, I just trusted completely the sim. So I would say that's
when I was bravest, particularly down to what you call turn four, as it's downhill and basically
one time you log off, you are off in the gravel. That was kind of the toughest in that sense.
Physically, it was clearly turn nine over the crest, right-hander. I mean, different laps,
you will see Landau and Oscar doing in six gear on seven gear, even in seventh gear at times.
So that's fast. And that's barely a little lift. You're flirting with six gear.
And you know, when you have not been in a racing car for 10 years, it felt like my
flesh, my whole body flesh was smashed up against the monocoque on the left hand side.
And it was simply just my bones, teeth sticking together and the commitment,
trying to match that, going through that corner and without putting a foot wrong on top of that,
thinking about Paul James and Sack Brown not doing any damage. But that was where there was
the biggest offset through that corner. But in general, I mean, I was within the fastest laps
to towards the end when the tyres were now around a couple of seconds. So I think it was
really good. I mean, what was very nice was this was September 3rd. When I was in Austin,
sitting with the Viperplay team, because they had done a nice feature around that,
which is still running on Viperplay on the test. We were sitting on a barbecue house and having
these famous rips or sticks in Austin. And suddenly as I'm grabbing some fries,
I get a knock from the back. And there's a few people and one standing with a hat,
let's say, what are you calling? A woolly hat. Something like that.
In Austin, it's normally quite hot. Yeah, it's quite hot. And then he goes,
hey, you want my seat? Well done on the test. That was Lando. He was there with his engineer
and maybe the chief mechanic and his trainer. They were there just having a taste as well.
But that was nice. I actually spoke to the team about it, TK. They were very impressed.
The final question about driving that McLaren in 24 is tell us about downforce,
all right? Because those cars under the last regulation set, there was so much ground effect
being produced. When you're going through turn nine, the quick corner at the Red Bull Ring,
how much of it is feel that you're getting through your bum, through the pedals, through your hands?
And how much of it is just believing in the data that the car will do it? Slightly blind trust,
if you like? There's no doubt that it's blind trust that was needed,
particularly these ground effect cars. Not sheer commitment, because then you could overdrive it.
And then if you push too much and you get any turbulence, any bouncing in the car could really
generate the offset suddenly. And these snap what we have seen, which looks from the outside.
What are you doing? But these cars were very critical. And I can see already now, shorter
wheelbase, narrower track, they are looking much better nimble and with the weight lower.
The more you go on that, there will be a much more benefit for the feel of the drivers.
But I have to say that McLaren, the brakes, wow, they were spot on the gearbox in sync with the
gears and down changing. Everything in that sense was perfect. And you are guided out,
you know, just with the engineer in terms of warming the tyres. But basically for me,
it was, I just had to get on with it. I knew every lap was running into being the final.
So I just went on with it. DRS was also tough. They say very complex in terms of everything on
the steering wheel. And there's a lot of things which you have to optimize with a modern Formula
1 car. It's a bit like in Le Mans, but there you have more or less more straights or even in the
sports car races to do it. So I would say modern F1 car, very complex. Everything really sensational
in the way of feel, the feedback from the car. It was an awesome experience. Just have to make
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Well, what that TPC run proved is something that people who follow the sport closely have known
for many years is that you could or should have been in Formula One and would have been very successful.
But where you found all of your success was in sports cars. Let's talk about that now.
What made you so good? What made you so effective as a sports car driver?
I don't know. I certainly have some of my dad's DNA in me. There was a lot of the
determination of persistence, of doing him proud, doing myself proud, and doing my team proud,
because every time I was in a racing car, I was always depending on somebody making that happen.
These I never forget, and these I certainly also felt I learned also in the times in Japan.
But it was a certain Bertram Scheffer who actually took me out of the bank clerk situation,
which I have just been educated. As long as I had a thousand days where I was just jumping
from a small seat one-time go-kart, sometimes a Formula 2000, the Nobel Lotus race, then an old
Formula 3 race, something like that. But Bert Scheffer called me in February 1991, join, sign,
Volkswagen F3 driver, and off I went. I won my first race in Solda, won the championship,
and since then I was a professional racing driver until I called it off with Audi now more than
10 years ago. But specifically to talk about sports cars, your record at Le Mans, but not
only at Le Mans, at Sebring, all of the great sports car races, you've been there, done it.
Why? I don't believe it's a coincidence. You must have been doing something special in the car.
I'm certainly fast. I'm committed. I am looking at the efficiency in it. I'm not necessarily
want to win next corner. I'm always thinking about more stint time than lap times. But still,
it comes from being determined, I think. I think I joined with Stefan Johansen,
Michela Alberto, the way they embraced me, particularly Michela, as he knew the car better.
You know, there was no data at all. I mean, there was no SIM or anything. I come to Le Mans,
I don't know the circuit at all. So Michela and me, we go on a scooter and we talk a little bit
about it. At the end of the day, in the night, we're starting to see Dawn approaching and
they asked me for an extra stint. And I do a lap record at that time. And then since then,
it was obviously a very good camaraderie with the way I was dealt in with the team,
with those two drivers. That was for sure the fundament. And the way they took that...
That team at the last minute, because Davy Jones couldn't make the race at the last minute.
You delivered and then suddenly your reputation stood you well for the next few years, right?
Yeah, it's very much the way you're embraced by the team. You know, the German mechanics,
speaking in dialects, there was only 12 mechanics. It was a one-car team, Reinholt Jörst. But Michela
and Stefan were very good at embracing me there for my debut. They gave me confidence instead of,
you know, you could always... They have a young driver coming in supporting them. We have never
met before. And all this happens literally during the week up to Le Mans. And I think all that I
always took with me further on, because I have been... I've had 16 different teammates, over 18
starts at Le Mans. And I think what we have had together was important when the teammates
became young towards the end of my career. It was always... I was always thinking in a way of how
they embraced me. That's how you have... Because you are... I'm not saying you always have to look
out and be comfortable, everyone. There should be no weak link. And if there's a weak link,
that should be the focus. And weak link means sometimes if you're not confident. It could be
myself at times with certain situations. I mean, you know some of my teammates, I can mention them
very fast if you want. But 18 starts, 14 times we arrived to the finish, and we were on the podium.
Every time, you know? And yeah, nine wins of those. So we had a few retirements, which hurt. The
99 will be BMW, the biggest lead I've ever had. Then 2007 with Dindo and Alan, where we lost the
wheel going down to Indianapolis at high speeds. Poor Dindo was in the car at that time. It was
four or five laps after a pit stop. And there we were always already three laps ahead. So we lost
that one too. So that's 16. Then there was one race where I didn't get in the car. And then there was...
When Alan, we remember with the Ferrari, very early on in the race, he was leading. But the cars
were so difficult. You had no visibility out of the car. Very tough. There was a BMW in 98.
The first time there, we had a very low drag car. But we were retired because the wheel bearings were
too dangerous. And they pulled the car out. And I was driving with Steve Sober. He was staying in
the car six laps after they called him to retire the car in sheer commitment because we were running
between third and fifth at the time. But we were pulled out. So that was 18 starts. The rest was
wins or podiums. I'm just sort of counting all the near misses. It could so easily have been 11
wins at Le Mans or even 12, right? Yeah. But Le Mans is very much a team effort. And you asked about
a team effort in the way of being with the team. It's all about wanting to help and wanting to
feel part of the team. Because for endurance racing, that's something I think is what I try to
help or to make sure there is a good atmosphere around your car. So it's mechanics, it's engineers
and certainly all the drivers I've had. I mean, Michaela, Stefan Johansson, then with Steve Sober,
Hans Joachim Stuck, JJ Leto, Jörg Müller, Immanuel Pirro, Frank Bila. Is it kind of who's who?
Yeah. Who was the fastest teammate you ever had at Le Mans? Of course, light is good. So I mean,
they always said the perfect combination were Capello, Magnesian, myself. But if you look at it,
we didn't win so many as we actually did with Bila Pirro myself. We won three on a thought.
But why was Dindo, Alan and you the perfect combination on paper at least?
Different personalities, different way of being, we were very tightly knit. We were still good
mates. We had a great way of racing and very committed together. And I think we were all three
very fast and very consistent. How much are you on the limit in a race like Le Mans? Are you driving
it like a single seat or in a Grand Prix? You are full on the limit. But you have in the back of
your head the importance of it's now. It's not like overshoot going off or whatever. You can't
allow that. So you have that in your mind. So the limit is there. And then it's even more tough
because you have the importance of that one race. There's only one race a year. So it takes a whole
year to get to. So some of these setbacks, some of the failures you had at Le Mans, they tear you.
They really set you deep. And that you feel when you're going for Le Mans. You feel the history
heritage when you're there, no doubt. When does the preparation for Le Mans start?
For the manufacturer, it starts from the first scratch because they want the car to be successful
at Le Mans. And then they optimize for all the other circuits, even for the World Endurance
Championship. And I think for the whole thing, that's how it goes. It always, whenever you go
testing, it's a little bit in terms of, all right, we have a fast car now. Can it last? We need the
reliability on these parts. We need to make sure that these tyres, yeah, okay, here they
go off a little bit fast. But at Le Mans, we can run normally. Tires a little bit softer as you
cool down on the, on the Hynédia, down to Ingenapolis, the longer straights, things like that.
So it always plays a second thought, always goes around Le Mans. But we are always on the limit.
There is a traffic situation in sports cars, which you never should underestimate.
Because you need sometimes, it's kind of good to know who's in the cars you're approaching,
because you're passing seven to 14 cars every lap. And someone in the straights comes quite easy.
But sometimes there's two or three cars there in a fight themselves.
There you have some time to say, oh, careful here.
And how much more complicated does everything you've just described get at night?
Yeah, passing traffic, visibility. Yeah, they know you're approaching at night,
because you're constantly having lights on the cars. But at night, they will,
they will know, they will notice you. So in that sense, they just don't know where they,
so the traffic is actually easier at night for those reasons.
In some, yeah, I would say so. It's easier to feel the trust that they will definitely know
you are coming. No doubt about that. And what about just the process of driving the car at night?
That's tougher, no doubt. There's more floodlight now than there was back in the day.
The lightning on the cars has evolved like everything involved in racing.
That's a good thing about it. And even help my eyesight towards my career.
Because at the same time, the light got better outside, the dim light on the cockpit in terms
of the steering wheel complexity of all that, you had to optimize, you always had to change the view
of the apex of the traffic and sometimes to what you had to do on the steering wheel.
And that became a little more and more. That was one of the reasons why I was, oh,
now it gets a little bit, you know, when you have a few seconds, you feel like you have to adjust.
So I would say racing drivers plus 50 at night, that's not a good idea.
Do you sleep during that 24 hours as a driver?
In the first years, I barely, but... Like just the adrenaline.
Adrenaline, you were feeling there, you had the radio, you want to hear everything.
But I did, I did 18 starts, I would say 15 of them, I got some sleeps,
some more than others, but I was saying average 33 and a half hours, maybe four.
It's a protest of endurance, isn't it? For everybody in the team, actually.
Yeah, but you know, adrenaline is so lovely. So when you have it, you can do it.
And then the week after, you're probably a little bit more tired, especially if you come away after
after a bad one. Let's talk about Audi now.
What was your reaction when you heard they were going to do Formula One?
I knew it at that time, because it has been going on a little bit in the background.
And of course, my role with FIA at that time, and I know the meetings that was going on,
Sean taught those years, that was coming and it was looking very good.
And at the time, sustainable was very important. That was a key word for Audi, to Audi come in.
And I think it was right time. There has been so many times when I was at Audi,
that there was times when we were linked towards Formula One, particularly the Volkswagen Group.
So I thought now with this new regulation, the timing is right.
And for sure, it's very special for me to see and to feel. I'm really,
I'm really happy for the progress they have already done with the impact they have done.
And how would you describe the Audi way, the Audi way of going racing?
And do you think the way they won in sports cars is applicable in Formula One?
Or do you have to do things slightly differently in Formula One?
There's no doubt you have to do things differently in Formula One.
And it's already been done. I mean, the way they have, obviously they have
running it completely independent from Audi AG in terms of the merger with Sauber in Hinville.
And then making the engine. The engine facility is in Neuburg.
That's built on the great Audi facility like we ended up with at that time.
So I think they have done things right. And I just want to see them progress.
And the way the impact they have done already, I think is very extraordinary.
Two good drivers building on the teams. And now one of my sport car teammates is
running it together with, obviously, Mattia Binotto have put him in place there.
So there's a lot of emotion about seeing how well they are going forward.
Has Alan McNish approached you about a job at the team as well?
I don't think so. The old drivers are coming back.
I don't think he has time. And he's doing a good job.
Remember, he was team principal of the Formula E team.
After since he put his helmet off and retired from racing, I had a feeling.
He says he never himself had the feeling that he will go that way, but always had the feeling.
He's a great person, a great motivator. He knows the craft. business.
And I think he's the right man of having, let's say, the genes of how we went racing
in the sports cars back then. And he knows the DTM side as well.
All the Audi motorsport program under Dr. Ulleck at that time.
And then you have Stefan Dreyer sitting head of the engines in Neuburg.
And he's a big racer with a big heart going forward there as well.
Are Audi ruthless in the way they go about their racing?
The stated aim is to be challenging for the world championship by 2030.
Do you have every confidence that they will reach that target?
Yeah, yes, I have. But I have the definitely you need to be more open about that in Formula One.
In sports car racing, you will have to be approached in the media after every session.
So in that sense, it's a lot more media-orientated sport Formula One.
Every session you are going to be dealt with questions going in that direction.
But in short, as long as they improve, every time they improve, it's going for the right target.
I remain confident that it's the right people and they have the opportunity.
TK, I have so enjoyed this chat.
Can we end it just by talking about F1 2026? Can we talk about Kimi Antonelli?
Yes.
Age 19. Is he ready to win the world championship?
You're never ready to win the world championship.
And in that sense, you're never ready, but you're doing it.
And he is ready doing it because he's doing so well.
Look how he has improved since last year.
He also is, some drivers really like these cars better.
And this year, he's doing incredibly well.
Remember how he started the European season after I actually have kind of breaking,
he broke the lock, I would say, or what do you say, the key he found there in Miami 2025
when he was on pole. And then he had that miserable European season last year.
Three points from what? Nine races or something?
This is not going to happen this time.
The way he has approached on his racing this year, he's committed, he's confident,
he's just lovely to watch. And I hope that's going to continue.
And at the same time, also the perception in terms of George is really on the top of his game as well.
So it's an interesting internal battle there as well.
But Kimi is just raised to that potential to the Wolf and his team.
Have seen a little bit earlier than others and they are benefiting from that now.
And George has to constantly deliver, not being unlucky as he has been a few times.
And then we will see when the other teams are slipping in.
Ferrari looks hot at the moment in Monaco.
McLaren will come back. They are the constructors and world champion with Landon Norris.
They also want to come back and they are nearly there as well.
And when do we see Max on the top step again? When?
Surely not too long. Actually, on the topic of Max,
you're someone who's driven so many different cars in your career.
What do you make of Max going and doing his GT3 racing on the side?
Yeah, I love what he's doing and I love that.
And I think we really have to, let's say, embrace that.
And it's just nice to see.
And I think it benefits the whole ecosystem.
I mean, okay, if you like the forest and Nürburgring,
it's probably a little changed now.
It has been seen by the most people ever during the 24 hours of Nürburgring.
But I like that.
I like Alonso when he comes to Le Mans and when he won a Le Mans, so big respect for that.
And that's the same with Hültenberg, with Porsche.
Do you think driving different cars makes people better racing drivers?
Do you think Max actually benefits his Formula One career by doing that GT3 stuff?
Yes, in general, you benefit, no doubt.
But how much you can do and how often you can change,
it might upset the things a little bit.
But I think as a driver, a motivated person, human being,
you should do what you would like and like that word, versatility.
For me, the word versatility is, for me, is the best word in motorsport.
Because you can use versatility about your car, about the situation,
about the circuits, about the weather condition, everything.
You can use that and you can jump between the series.
And you can say, okay, I might be a little bit romanticizing,
thinking back in the old days when people did that,
when there was no sponsors on the car, things like that.
But hey, I take that with me, I like that.
And I like to see people who have the opportunity to do it.
Please do it.
It benefits the whole system about racing.
The ecosystem about racing is only benefiting from each other.
The pinnacle is clearly and deservedly Formula One, no doubt.
Look where it is today, unbelievable.
But all the other categories are doing very well too.
DK, thank you very much for your time.
Great chat.
Pleasure.
Thanks, Tom.
What an extraordinary conversation with a true motor racing legend.
Tom thinks versatility is the best word in motorsport.
And it's certainly the best description of his ability
behind the wheel of a racing car.
Formula One's loss was sports car racing's gain.
But it's wonderful that we still get to see Tom at Grand Prix
in his capacity as a TV pundit.
Thanks for your time, DK.
And I'll see you again soon.
Well, that's almost it for this week.
But before you take your headphones off,
why not check out another official F1 podcast?
F1 Nation's review of the Barcelona Catalonia Grand Prix is out now.
And on the same podcast feed,
you'll find a deep dive into the race start procedure on F1 Explains.
And if you head over to the F1 YouTube channel,
you can watch all the latest episodes of F1 Beyond the Grid.
I will, of course, be back next week with another great guest
from the world of Formula One.
But for now, thanks very much for listening.
F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and AudioBoom Studios.
Until next time, keep it flat out.
About this episode
Tom Kristensen talks about the “best who never raced in F1” headlines and how his career stayed parallel to Formula One. After winning German F3 in 1991 and spending key years in Japan, he chased opportunities but lacked the funding to take risky F1 offers—despite testing for teams like Minardi and later being close to a Williams chance. He credits sports cars for his success, including nine Le Mans wins, and recalls near-misses with BMW. The discussion also touches on how driver academies and team outreach differ from the 90s.
As a child, Formula 1 was his dream. As a young driver he was on the same trajectory as Michael Schumacher. Tom Kristensen was offered a chance to join a Formula 1 team, but he saw it as too risky. Instead he found success in sportscars and made history at the Le Mans 24 Hours with a record nine victories. Tom tells Tom Clarkson about the ‘risky’ offer he received from a Formula 1 team in the 1990s, the sportscar decision which harmed his F1 chances, and the day he impressed a World Champion in a modern F1 car.
‘Mr Le Mans’ also remembers his history-making days at the world’s most famous endurance race, and explains how racing different cars made him a better driver.
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