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133:15
Company
Viper Industrial
They’re the company sponsoring the podcast. Sponsors like this are usually connected to car gear or performance products.
Concept
Track day cars
A track day car is a car you take to a race track for fun and practice. The goal is usually something that’s not too expensive to buy or keep running.
Term
10 millimeter
“10 millimeter” is a specific size wrench/socket. Mechanics joke that it always goes missing right when you need it.
Term
stainless steel rolling cabinets
They’re talking about wheeled tool boxes made from stainless steel. Different sizes mean you can store more tools or fit larger organizers.
Company
wearertools.com
They’re pointing you to a website where you can buy tools and tool storage. The idea is that the foam inserts and cabinets are made to fit together.
Topic
race series
A race series is like a season of races. Drivers compete at several events, usually with the same rules, and sometimes earn points for overall standings.
Concept
Gridlife
Gridlife is a group that organizes track events for regular drivers and enthusiasts. The host is saying he runs those events as his job.
Topic
track time
“Track time” refers to scheduled on-track sessions where drivers can practice and improve their skills. It’s often sold as part of track-day programs, sometimes with coaching or structured competition.
Concept
competition and track day culture
They’re talking about how racing events and the community around them feed each other. When people feel part of a scene, they keep coming back and bringing others.
Topic
drift event
A drift event is when drivers try to slide the car sideways through turns on purpose. The goal is to do it smoothly and consistently, not just to set the fastest lap.
Topic
time attack
Time attack is when drivers try to set the fastest lap time on a track. It’s like a competition version of a track day, with timing and structured runs.
Term
classes
“Classes” are categories that help keep competition fair. Cars with similar rules and performance levels compete against each other.
Term
club SC
“Club SC” sounds like a category name for a specific set of rules. It’s how the event groups cars so similar builds race together.
Term
club TR
“Club TR” is likely a specific competition category with its own rules. It helps decide which cars can compete together.
Concept
grid like touring car
This is a type of race where cars start in a grid and drive side-by-side. It’s more like normal racing for position than just trying to set the fastest lap by yourself.
Term
power to weight ratio
Power-to-weight ratio is how much “go power” a car has compared to how heavy it is. A higher number usually means the car feels faster because it has more pull per pound.
Concept
wheel to wheel racing
Wheel-to-wheel racing is when multiple cars are on track at the same time and you’re trying to beat other drivers, not just your own time. It’s usually more chaotic and strategy-heavy.
Concept
spec racer
A spec racer is a race car where many parts are standardized by the rules. That helps keep costs down and makes the competition more about driving and allowed tuning.
Concept
factory built cars
Factory built cars means the race cars are made by the manufacturer (or an approved builder). It usually makes the cars more similar to each other so it’s easier to compete.
Concept
spec series
A spec series is racing where the cars are controlled by rules so they’re very similar. That way, it’s less about who spent the most money and more about driving well and making smart setup choices.
Concept
spec fit
This sounds like a community-made rule set. The idea is to keep cars more similar so racing is more about driving than spending money.
Topic
Sunday Cup
Sunday Cup here seems like a specific track-day club event or format. It’s basically a way for people to race together under shared rules.
Brand
Gran Turismo
Gran Turismo is a famous racing video game. They’re comparing the vibe of this club racing to that kind of “car culture” experience.
Concept
dodgy bonk
“Dodgy bonk” sounds like a slang term for sketchy fender-bender moments. It’s basically describing how close racing can lead to awkward contact.
Concept
nose to bumper
This means driving extremely close together. When cars are that close, it’s easier to bump each other if someone brakes or turns differently.
Concept
diesel truck racing started as well
They’re saying a similar thing happened in diesel truck racing—people started racing in a messy, improvised way and it turned into a real scene. The common thread is community momentum, not perfect preparation.
Concept
drag racing
Drag racing is racing in a straight line over a short distance. You accelerate hard to see who’s fastest.
Term
Cummins
“Cummins” is shorthand for a diesel engine made by Cummins. People associate it with a lot of torque (pulling power), especially in certain Dodge trucks, so it often shows up in drag or racing stories.
Concept
SCCA club world
SCCA is a big U.S. organization that runs amateur road racing events. When someone says “SCCA club world,” they mean the community and rules that come from that grassroots racing scene.
Concept
track day car is broken
This is describing a common track-day reality: if your dedicated track car breaks, people may temporarily use a daily driver instead. That choice affects performance, safety, and compliance with event rules, since daily cars often aren’t set up for sustained track use.
Term
power band width factor
A “power band width factor” is a rules-based way to quantify how broad (or narrow) an engine’s effective power delivery is across RPM. In racing rulebooks, it’s often used to balance different engines by accounting for where they make usable power, not just peak output.
Concept
rally racing
Rally racing is a motorsport where cars race on timed stages over public or closed roads, often with mixed surfaces and changing grip. The “big issues” being referenced likely relate to how rules, competition formats, or vehicle preparation differ from circuit/track-day culture.
Concept
rally cars
Rally cars are race cars built for rough, changing surfaces—like dirt or gravel—where grip can change a lot. They’re made to handle bumps and traction changes better than a normal car.
Concept
rules to prevent cheating
Racing rules are meant to keep everyone on a level playing field and to keep things safe. The idea here is that some people will look for loopholes to gain an advantage if the rules aren’t tight.
Concept
push the limit
“Push the limit” describes driving or tuning behavior where you keep increasing performance or aggression until the car reaches its traction, braking, or mechanical limits. On track, this is where tires overheat, brakes fade, and driver mistakes become more likely.
Term
$15,000
They’re using a strict budget limit of $15,000 for the car you start with. That budget affects which cars you can realistically buy and still afford to maintain for track days. It also limits the list of cars they’ll consider.
Concept
base car
They mean the “base car” is the car you can actually buy and drive right away. It’s not a broken project or something you have to fix before it’s usable. For track days, starting with something that runs and drives helps avoid surprises.
Concept
readily available in the United States
They want the car to be easy to find for sale in the U.S. That matters because if a car is rare, it can be harder and more expensive to get parts and repairs. So they’re focusing on cars that are practical for most people to buy.
Concept
ice cream test
The “ice cream test” is basically: can your track car still be used like a normal car with a passenger. If you’ve stripped it so much that you can’t comfortably take someone along after the track, the community says it’s gone too far.
Concept
Track-day budget planning (daily driver + track car)
They’re saying that if you’re on a tight budget, you often don’t buy a separate track-only car. You use your regular car for track days too, so it has to be both practical for everyday driving and tough enough for the track.
Concept
"$15K" budget constraint (mods within reason)
They’re treating the $15k as the car’s price, not counting upgrades. And they want upgrades that are affordable and straightforward—nothing that turns it into a huge, expensive project.
Term
turbocharger
A turbocharger is a device that helps the engine make more power. They’re saying you shouldn’t need to add one (or do a turbo conversion) to get a car ready for track days on a tight budget.
Concept
"Back half the whole car" (major chassis/body modification)
“Back halfing” means doing a big, structural repair or modification to the rear of the car. That kind of work is expensive and time-consuming, so it doesn’t fit their budget track-day rules.
Term
suspension
Suspension is what connects the wheels to the car and helps the tires grip the road. They’re saying you shouldn’t have to replace basically all of it to make the car suitable for track days.
Concept
"Basic car in silhouette" (keep the platform stock-looking)
They mean the car should basically stay the same car—no major cutting or rebuilding. The goal is to pick something you can get ready for the track with normal upgrades, not a full transformation.
Term
brakes
Brakes are what slow the car down, and on a track they get very hot. That’s why brake upgrades are often needed to keep stopping power consistent.
Term
wheels, tires
Tires are what actually grip the road, and wheels help support the tire setup. For track days, changing tires (and sometimes wheels) is one of the simplest upgrades that can make a big difference.
Term
reliability part
When people say “reliability” for track days, they usually mean making sure the car won’t overheat, break, or suffer fluid-related failures under sustained load. Common reliability checks include cooling system health, brake fluid condition, and basic wear items.
Term
contaminate
Contamination means something got on the tire surface that makes it less grippy. If your tires aren’t clean and free of harmful stuff, they can feel slippery and unsafe.
Concept
Marketplace
They’re talking about buying a used car from an online marketplace and then going to a track day with it. The idea is that cost isn’t everything—condition and safety matter most.
Concept
bang for the buck
It just means you’re trying to get the most fun or performance for the money. Instead of chasing the absolute fastest car, you pick one that’s affordable and still enjoyable on track.
Concept
Smiles per mile
It’s a fun way to say “how enjoyable is this car to drive?” Not just how fast it is—more about the experience you get every time you drive.
Concept
seat time
“Seat time” refers to how long you’re actually driving during a track day. More seat time usually means more learning, better confidence, and more opportunities to practice lines and braking points.
Concept
race to the bottom
“Race to the bottom” means everyone keeps pushing harder, but the result is worse for you instead of better. Here, it’s about chasing speed in a way that can wreck your car.
Car
Mustang Fox Body
“Fox body” is a nickname for a generation of Ford Mustang from the late 1970s through the early 1990s. People like them for track and drag use because there are lots of parts and tuning options.
Concept
track that's really fast vs slow car that's really technical
Not all race tracks are the same. Some are more about going fast in a straight line, while others are more about turning and braking a lot. A car that struggles on one type of track might do great on the other.
Concept
gen one
“Gen one” just means the first version of that car. When you’re buying used, the generation can change how easy it is to find parts and how reliable the car tends to be.
Concept
availability
Availability refers to how easy it is to find a specific car in the used market at a reasonable price. For enthusiasts, it also often implies parts availability and community support for maintenance and upgrades.
Concept
takeover tax
“Takeover tax” is slang for when a car gets so popular in a scene that the price jumps. You end up paying more than you would if it were just a normal used car.
Car
Honda Fit
The Honda Fit EV is a small Honda Fit that runs on electricity instead of gasoline. The podcast mentions it because it’s an EV version of a practical compact car. It’s brought up as an example of how small cars can be electric too.
Concept
run track days for four years for that budget
They’re talking about the overall cost of doing track days, not just buying the car. The big expenses over time are things that wear out—like tires and brakes—plus upgrades you may need to make the car track-ready.
Concept
longevity
Longevity means “how long the car can keep going” without you constantly spending money. For track days, it’s about reliability and how expensive it is to replace the things that wear out.
Term
shifter on the dash
Some cars put the gear shifter on the dashboard instead of between the seats. It’s a different layout that can feel unusual at first, but it’s part of what makes certain older cars memorable.
Concept
rise of the crossover
This is about how more people started buying crossovers and SUVs instead of regular cars. When that happens, car companies build fewer “fun” cars and more family-friendly crossovers.
Term
K20 Z three
“K20 Z3” refers to Honda’s K-series engine family variant commonly associated with the Civic Si/SiR era, known for strong aftermarket support and a high-revving character. The hosts are highlighting it as a “great motor” with lots of parts available.
Term
Limited slip
A limited-slip differential helps both drive wheels work together better. If one wheel starts slipping, it helps send more power to the wheel with grip.
Concept
front wheel drive cars on track
On a track, front-wheel-drive cars have to both steer and drive from the front wheels. If the front wheels lose grip, the car can’t put power down well—so upgrades like an LSD can make a noticeable difference.
Car
Hyundai Elantra
The Hyundai Elantra is a compact sedan meant for everyday driving. The podcast mentions it alongside talk about power and racing, meaning people treat it as more than just a basic commuter. It’s brought up because it can be part of performance conversations.
Term
front wheel drive diff
A “diff” helps the wheels turn at different speeds when you’re cornering. That matters because the inside and outside wheels don’t travel the same distance around a turn. It’s a big part of why a front-wheel-drive car feels predictable and controllable.
Concept
aftermarket support
“Aftermarket support” means how many replacement and performance parts are available from companies other than the original manufacturer. For track-day use, strong aftermarket support matters because it makes it easier to upgrade brakes, suspension, tires, and cooling without hunting for rare parts.
Concept
livability
“Livability” means how easy and comfortable the car is to live with day to day. The speaker is saying it’s not only a track-capable car—it’s also pleasant enough for normal driving.
Term
junkyard
A junkyard is a place that sells used parts from cars that have been wrecked. If you break something at the track, junkyards can be a cheaper way to replace it.
Concept
eating that thing into corners
It means you drive into the corner with confidence instead of being scared and slowing down. When you’re not worried about wrecking, you can practice better and improve.
Term
tail light
A tail light is the red light on the back of the car. If you hit something and break it, it’s often a relatively simple and affordable fix compared to bigger damage.
Concept
not precious
“Not precious” basically means you’re okay with the car getting some wear or minor damage. On a track day, that’s normal, so you don’t treat it like a museum piece.
Brand
Honda theme
They’re saying the next suggestion will be in the Honda direction. Honda cars are often chosen for track days because parts are usually easier to find and cheaper.
Car
Mazda MX-5 / Miata
The Miata (MX-5) is a small two-seat convertible made by Mazda. It’s designed to feel nimble and fun to drive, not to be a big, fast grand tourer. The episode brings it up as a reference point for what a “real” modern roadster should feel like.
Concept
unexpected car
An “unexpected car” is a normal-looking car that turns out to be great for track days. It usually works because it’s light and easy to drive, and people can upgrade it to handle better.
Concept
epitome of driving a slow car fast
It means you can have a lot of fun on track even if the car isn’t very powerful. The key is learning to drive it well—brake smoothly, turn in confidently, and use the throttle correctly—so you’re going fast for what the car can do.
Concept
anxiety to tracking
They’re saying track days can feel stressful, especially if you’re worried about crashing or damaging your car. A cheaper, easier-to-drive car can make you feel more comfortable, so you can concentrate on getting better instead of panicking.
Concept
refine small details
They mean getting better by focusing on small things you do while driving. Instead of just trying to go faster with power, you improve how you brake and steer. Doing that repeatedly is how you get quicker on track.
Concept
Track day weekend logistics (car that can do multiple events)
The hosts are emphasizing a “one car, many weekends” approach: a track-day car that’s affordable enough to keep using, and practical enough to drive to the track, run all weekend, then return home and do it again. This is about total cost of ownership and day-to-day usability, not just lap times.
Concept
First-generation vs second-generation model upgrade
They’re comparing two versions of the same model—an earlier generation versus a newer one. The point is that the newer generation is usually a better car overall, even if you’re still buying used.
Term
Print mags
“Print mags” refers to traditional automotive magazines (paper publications) that used to be a major source of reviews and coverage. Mentioning them is a clue that the hosts are talking about the car’s early-era cultural impact and media attention.
Concept
cars getting too big
They’re basically saying newer cars are getting bigger and heavier. When that happens, the car can feel less nimble and less fun to drive.
Car
350Z
The Nissan 350Z is a rear-wheel-drive sports car that a lot of people use for track days and drifting. The reason is that it’s relatively affordable and there are lots of parts and tuning options for it.
Term
rear wheel drive
Rear-wheel drive means the back wheels do the work of moving the car. Many track and drift drivers like it because the car tends to feel more controllable when you’re turning hard and managing tire grip.
Term
VQ engine
The VQ engine is Nissan’s well-known V6. People like it for track and drifting because there are lots of upgrades available and it’s a proven platform for making power and reliability.
Concept
track day culture and drift culture
“Track day culture” and “drift culture” overlap, but they prioritize different things: track days emphasize repeatable lap performance and heat management, while drifting emphasizes controlled traction breakaway and durability under sustained wheel slip. The hosts are framing the 350Z/VQ platform as a bridge between the two communities for longevity and parts availability.
Term
three speed
A three-speed transmission has only three forward gears. That can make it harder to keep the engine in the “sweet spot” when you’re driving fast, because you have fewer gear choices.
Term
long gear
“Long gear” means the transmission is set up so the engine spins slower for a given speed. That can make the car feel calmer on the road, but on track it may require more downshifting to keep the engine in the right rev range.
Term
factory LSD
An LSD helps the car put power down more evenly when one wheel has less grip. If it’s “factory,” it’s already set up correctly from the start, so you don’t have to add it later.
Brand
Brembo
Brembo makes performance brakes. If your car has Brembo brakes, it usually means the braking system is stronger and can handle repeated hard stops better on a track.
Concept
cost of operation
This means how much it costs to keep the car running over time. On a track day car, you usually spend more on wear items like tires and brakes, so the “cheap to run” part is a big deal.
Concept
chassis stiffness
Chassis stiffness is how “solid” the car feels when you corner hard. If it flexes a lot, the handling can feel less precise; if it’s stiffer, it usually feels more controlled.
Concept
track-day rules under $15k
The hosts mention “rules” tied to a budget class (under $15k), which affects what cars are eligible for the comparison. This is important because track-day performance is often limited by what you can buy within the class, not just what’s fastest overall.
Car
Subaru BRZ
BRZ is Subaru’s small sports car. They’re comparing older versus newer versions, and saying the newer one feels more solid and better for driving hard.
Car
Scion Frs
The Scion FR-S is a small sports coupe designed to be fun and affordable. The podcast talks about buying one for around the low $10,000s. It’s mentioned because it can give a real sports-car driving experience without costing a lot.
Concept
altitude
At higher elevations, the air is thinner. That means engines often make less power, so the car can feel weaker than it would at sea level.
Concept
avoid the twins at all costs
They’re saying not to pick the “twins” for their situation. The reason seems to be that where you live (like high altitude) can make those cars less ideal for track days.
LIVE
What's up everybody, welcome back.
It is another episode of Firing Order
brought to you by Viper Industrial.
This is the show where we get into extremely nuanced
arguments about random rankings of things in the car world
and we try to stay friends through the end.
Today, we've got my co-conspirator, Ron Zaris,
as well as Gridlife co-founder, Chris Stewart,
to rank the top five budget track day cars.
Let's get into it.
If you grew up reading Hot Rod and not GQ,
you're probably more of a hat and hoodie person,
which means your sunglasses likely match that look.
But this past weekend, my wife said
we had somewhere fancy to go.
So I dusted off the button down, she got me for Christmas.
When I went to go grab my laser faces,
I got that look, thankfully.
Heatwave saved my ass with their new Nimitz.
It's an elevated take on the classic aviator,
stylish and functional.
So if you need to class it up a little,
my friends at Heatwave got you covered
from track day to date night, heatwavevisual.com.
Some people are extremely organized,
super sorted workbenches, garages and lives.
I am not that person.
I'm a mess, luckily, where it can help.
When you buy their toolkits,
they offer matching foam inserts.
Maybe it's a mental condition of mine,
but there's something about an empty slot
that just screams at me to go find
that missing 10 millimeter before it vanishes forever.
Plus the inserts fit perfectly
into wearer stainless steel rolling cabinets,
which come both in regular and double XL.
For those of you like myself who hoard,
I'm sorry, I mean collect tools.
Go check them out at wearertools.com.
I like it.
You boys ready for this?
I'm ready.
Yeah, you ready?
I'm ready.
Let's do it.
You don't look as ready as the two of us.
We have.
Yeah, cause y'all got notebooks.
Every time, and they're not just notebooks,
they're gridded notebooks.
And I'm not gonna make the same joke though.
Chris is about the grid life.
Yeah.
That's what he's committed anyway.
You made it anyway.
The one dude at the table who's not a dad.
That's right.
Just ripping dad jokes he's trying to fit in.
That I know of.
That I know of.
Look, before we get into this,
Ron and I just enjoy the artistry of debate
and just argument.
So we're here for that purpose alone.
But you actually run race series.
Like this is your profession.
We're maybe spectators on it.
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely deep in the weeds.
Yeah, I mean, I said it in the intro,
but for those who don't know,
what have you been doing for the past decade of your life?
So I am Chris Stewart and I am the founder of Gridlife.
So I've been facilitating track time in competition
and other forms in a variety of places
all over the country for the last 10 years.
I like that you use the word facilitating.
I think when you use it,
you have to follow it with like,
I've been facilitating bad decisions.
Yeah, I mean, I'm a behind the curtain kind of guy.
So I've been puppeteering, you know,
like kind of puppeteering the environment
for competition and track day culture to happen.
Yeah.
I think that's a super interesting thing too,
because your passion is in racing and track cars
and all that, and you could see that
because Gridlife didn't really have to be that, right?
Like the combo of a music festival and like a drift event
and just time attack is cool,
but you guys have much more than just time attack, right?
Oh, I have told him so many times
that he would be so much more successful
if he cared less about racing.
Oh, sure, sure.
But I love the fact that you make that happen
and the people that are there are like lifelong fans
because of that.
Yeah, I mean, it follows my own journey, right?
So like, I had a CRX,
I like got started to get into like,
you know, kind of the track inspired builds
and then turned it into like actually a track car.
And that was my journey.
So like, Gridlife's like built around
my automotive story, you know, for the most part.
That's really cool.
One of the cool things I think now is like,
you've actually offered a lot of other series
for people to build cars for and come compete, right?
You guys started with time attack,
but then you've expanded and like talk about
what are some of the series you've got going on?
Yeah.
So we've got, yeah, we've got a ton now.
So like time attack is the bread and butter,
that's the core, right?
So that's seven classes, you know,
so club SC, club TR, all that kind of moving up.
So you can build like kind of any car that you like,
any car that you love and find like a place for it.
It's the one which you brung and there's a category.
That's awesome.
And there's a category for it.
It's become like wildly competitive.
So people have like figured out like their math
and the rule book and like it's real, right?
So it's a pretty professional grassroots series
at this point, you know, but outside of that,
so we've got a GLTC, so that's a grid like touring car.
So that's a 12 and a half to one power to weight ratio
kind of math rule book and that's wheel to wheel racing.
So first to the finish line, you know,
so where time attack is like you're kind of,
you're competing for the fastest lap, right?
And then newest series like kind of in that,
you know, portfolio of things from us is GLGT.
So GLGT is eight and a half to one, so faster.
Same structure, same run, you know,
same build the car you love, but faster, right?
So and that runs in the same format as GLTC, you know,
and then we have the Rush series.
So Rush is a really cool kind of spec racer
and that runs similar to, right?
So like that's in the series as well.
What's the spec?
So they're factory built cars, right?
Have you seen the Rush cars?
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like Nate Hamilton, Grant,
like all those guys that have been racing those things,
that's cool.
Yeah, so that's our only spec series, right?
Yeah, so.
The fit thing wasn't really a spec series.
It was just that fit was the most for that class
or whatever that was.
The hot to fit club SC.
Yeah, right, right.
Fit was just the like the best car in that.
So it made it look like it was a fit spec series.
Right, so it started as spec fit, right?
And that was kind of a joke.
Oh, it did start as spec fit.
But not really, it was a joke title, right?
So the reason that that even became a part of grid life,
right?
So like, I always make the comment like,
what does grid life do?
It does what the community wants, right?
So like we build things, you know,
like we built it together with the drivers
and with the community, right?
So like a lot of the classes and a lot of the things
are crafted with the thinking of like what the community wants,
what they're doing already, right?
So the behavior that spawned what was spec fit,
which then became Sunday Cup is now club SC,
which stands for club Sunday Cup or club slow car.
Yeah, which is like the Gran Turismo classic.
Yeah, however you want to digest it,
it's because a lot of our instructors
when we were doing more,
when we had more track day type stuff in grid life,
when their race cars broke, they brought their dailies.
Yo, I love that.
And they're not gonna not shred them, you know?
That's like the birth of the dodgy bonk.
I would say that's dodgy bonk.
They would say it.
They all happened to have Honda Fitts.
So then they were all just like ripping their Fitts.
And then they started, you know, going bumper to,
you know, like nose to bumper,
you know, in the advanced session, you know,
with these slow cars.
That's how diesel truck racing started as well.
It was like guys would go drag racing,
they'd blow their car up,
but like they would pull out my Cummins
and run my Cummins down the hill
and I'll race my buddy who brought his Cummins
and then all of a sudden they're running like eights.
And there's obviously like Beast back, you know,
and that stuff that comes from, you know,
kind of the SCCA club world and those types of things.
But like in our environment,
like Fitts became popular because like that's what started it.
It's just like my track day car is broken.
You know, I'm just gonna rip this daily, you know?
And what I really like about what you guys are doing,
I took a look at one of your rule books last night
just to like refresh.
And it's, you have such specifics,
like a power band width factor
that takes percentages away,
but then like six lines later is like,
your car has to look cool.
Like the cooler your car looks,
the more camera time you'll get.
And I'm like, yo, this rule book is sick.
So the two of us, like Ron and I have had the conversation
about one of the big issues that rally racing has,
and I'm about to just say this in the public,
is it's got an aesthetic problem.
Like very few-
Track days too.
Very few rally cars look cool,
which means that you're less likely to take a photo of them
and that photo end up something.
Because you have a lot of guys that get in there
and like, they're like, I just care about performance
and I respect that.
Well, a lot of that stuff is like the community will,
like racers gonna race.
Absolutely.
So like a lot of those rules like come from like,
yo, we really gotta prevent these friends
from like not being friends.
Let me translate that.
Racers are gonna cheat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what he wants to say.
Because you will push the limit until you can't anymore.
No, 100%, right?
And they will credit card race themselves to death
and they will get in the mist
and it will ruin their soul.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And it'll ruin friendships
and it'll ruin the community and all that stuff.
So you're preserving souls.
Yeah, so it's like, there's like some defensive behavior
in that too, right?
Like we want people to be able to be in this
for a good time and a long time, you know?
And they'll burn themselves out if you allow them to.
And it's like, it's really hard.
I mean, Adam can talk about this.
I don't sit in that side of the house as much.
I mean, I like contribute to it,
but I don't write the rules, right?
Like I write the culture, you know?
I'm like, what is it supposed to do?
It is a thankless position.
Very much so.
When we did Jim Conagrid, we dealt with a lot of that.
Cause people just, you know, they want to be competitive
and they want to find loopholes.
And for some people in the sport,
finding the loophole is the fun part, right?
Like for the person who's helping build a car or whatever,
like that's, you know, that's the point.
Yeah.
So how many years have you been doing Gridlife?
So Gridlife started in 2014 officially, right?
So a long time, you know, decade plus 12 years.
So you have 12 years worth of info of cars on track.
Yes, I do.
I have that data.
I looked at it, right?
I got bar graphs.
I got circle charts.
I got those things.
I know, I know what people are doing.
You're pretty qualified.
You're more qualified than we are.
So he's bringing data metrics.
He probably has a spreadsheet.
Real numbers.
I'm going to tell you what you're up against.
You're up against two guys who have spent
the past 20-some odd years working in and around motorsports
with no time to really do their own being in motorsports,
but bench racing the shit out of a potential marketplace
by as to how we're going to, next year's the year,
we're going to build that car and we're going to go compete,
probably in Gridlife.
So I have a lot of research done at one o'clock
in the morning of what would be the perfect response.
We have many dreams.
We have many dreams.
So we're fueled on dreams.
You're fueled on math or something.
So anyway.
I call it practicality.
If you've already forgotten why we're here,
we are here to debate the top five budget track day cars.
And I think what we need to do right now
is set up sort of the rules and the stipulations
for what this is.
So first up we have is the price.
So the base car has to be bought for $15,000.
And when I say base car,
that means that the vehicle runs, drives,
you can go purchase it and you can drive it home.
And it also has to be readily available
in the United States.
Meaning it could be a car that's important,
but like you have to be able to easily find it.
It can't be like there's only been like 15 of them
imported into the US.
That doesn't work.
What were some of the other things we talked about?
Do you remember?
Ice cream test.
Ooh, this one's really important.
So explain the ice cream test.
Yeah, so the ice cream test is you have to be able
to take a friend, a significant other,
your spouse to get ice cream in it.
After, after the track.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, so it was one of the rules
where I talk about rules for the community,
like that end up in our rule set.
It's called the ice cream test.
So in the Sunday, you know, Sunday Cup club SC class,
you, if you win that class, you have to,
you actually have to go get ice cream.
That's so sick.
Like you have to go get ice cream
and you have to bring someone with you.
And like if you can't do that in your car,
then that, yeah, then that car can't win.
It means you stripped it out too much.
It means it doesn't have a seat, you know, like whatever.
Because we also discussed in order for this
to be a proper budget car,
you have to drive it to the track.
That's right.
Because one, owning a truck, also owning a trailer
and having a parking for that, there's no budget at all.
Even if you have the cheapest truck and cheapest trailer,
it's not easy to have.
I think it's a very common situation
where you're just starting out, you're super into cars,
but your daily driver is your only car.
That's right.
Your daily driver is going to be whatever you also have fun in.
So that's kind of the idea.
So it needs to be able to serve that purpose, right?
You know, it's your daily and you take it to the track
and it has to take the stuff that you need, you know,
for the track.
The 15K does not include mods, but as we discussed,
like mods have to be within reason.
It can't be a car that requires a turbocharger
or is like, I need to back half the whole car
and to redo all the suspension or to frame it.
Like none of that works.
It has to be the basic car in silhouette.
Wheels, tires, suspension brakes,
those are the only mods you need for a track day.
That's right.
Period.
But they are required on mostly any street car ever made.
Maybe transmission.
There aren't some cars, you don't think so?
No, that's way too far.
Yes, beneficial, right?
But in order to get on the track.
Actually more from a reliability part.
And actually, in order to get on the track,
you just need to make sure, like,
you don't even need good tires.
I don't think, you just need tires that don't.
D-Lamb.
Yeah, that aren't going to contaminate.
But brakes, brakes and fluid.
Brakes and fluid.
Yeah, brakes and fluid, you know, like.
So arguably you should be able to go
onto Marketplace right now, by the car.
This moment.
Go pick it up and within one week,
as long as you had the money set aside, go to a track day.
Yes, right.
That's fair.
I like that, right?
I like it.
That works.
By the way, if you're interested in how we came up
with all of this, we did like another half hour
pre-show to the show to discuss this on Patreon
because I think we realized in the last firing order
that I did with Mickey and Nads on the top JDM tuners,
we probably should have had a conversation first.
Well, you did, but it's Nads.
So you guys talked about everything on the planet.
We need to put in some more limitations
and things like that.
And then I think one of the other ones,
I think is the most important is that this is not
about being competitive.
It's about like, bang for the buck.
Dude, for sure.
Smiles per mile.
Like it doesn't matter if you go to the track day
and you get laughed on everyone,
as long as like you're having a really good time.
And you get to keep driving and you get a lot of seat time.
I've seen it with a couple of friends of ours,
like on a track day alone,
just chasing the fastest time forever,
faster than anybody else.
That's a race to the bottom.
Like you're just gonna make a time attack car
on accident, right?
Whereas if you build something that just brings you joy
and then you could develop yourself as a driver,
the track day world championship, there's no prizes.
There's no prizes.
Actually it's the opposite
because you're more likely to blow your car up.
Absolutely.
Like destroy your kids college savings.
Where you focus on the driving,
focus on like getting better with you and with the car.
Something else too, on a regular track day,
no one's watching you drive.
Nobody.
Nobody's paying attention to the heater lap you just had.
Maybe your girlfriend that you dragged out there.
Maybe, maybe like one old dude who's like up there
smoking a cigarette who like used to race 20 years ago
who would smoke this shit out of you in a Fox body.
But he doesn't think any of you are good.
He hates all of you.
Yeah, he hates all of you.
He's pissed that you're here, you know.
He misses when this was a circle track.
Yeah, he's not, he doesn't care, he doesn't care.
So that being said, like the point of having a good day
on track is to go there, have fun.
That's fun for you.
And be able to drive the car home.
That's right.
Which is a good day.
Yes, that's a really good day.
All right, so without further ado, you're gonna start.
So for a reminder of everyone how we do this,
everybody has brought their list of five
in no particular order.
We will battle to take two of their cars,
move them to the next level.
We then move all the way through.
At the end that leaves us with six cars.
Obviously we're trying to get five.
One will have to die.
But we also realize that there are probably
a lot of blind spots.
So the group of all of you who are on Patreon
have given us a whole list of cars
that we will then review before we make our final decisions
to see if there's any swap outs.
And then we will argue to the death for the final five.
And he wants them to all behind us.
Anyway, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not,
maybe not, maybe not.
So in no particular order, you may start as the guest.
Bring us your list.
Yeah, so I brought a real practical approach to this.
I've seen a lot of cars on track.
I've seen a lot of fun had.
I've seen a lot of heartbreak.
So, and also I'm from the Midwest, right?
So thinking about a car that fits the like,
this has gotta be my car.
You know, like this region is really good.
Cause like, if you live in a track that's really fast,
a slow car that's really technical,
that's not going to be even outside of like,
I mean, we're, we're blessed where we have like,
we do have a lot of tracks.
You got some variety in a five hour rip.
So starting off the list, Civic SI.
Okay, got it.
So that's 2006 to 2011.
Right.
So next, the Scion twins.
Yes.
So, you know, so, you know,
and this would be, this would be gen one.
Cause you really can get a scion for that price point.
Or you can still get a BRZ.
But Gen two is outside.
Well, when I say scion twins,
it's like the scion era of either of those.
Okay.
That makes sense.
Right.
So like, which is effectively like 13 to 16.
Right.
So 350 Z.
Okay.
So talk about reliability.
Talk about availability.
Not, not a, not a car that I like gravitate towards.
Yeah.
It's also got a pretty heavy drift
and takeover tax on it right now.
But we'll get to that.
I guess I'm unaware.
I'm not so unaware.
Fiesta ST.
Unconsidered.
It's not unconcidered.
It was probably on both of our lists.
Well, in the data, small sliver,
and the pie chart.
And the second gen Honda fit.
Nice.
Which is, there's probably my expected choice.
That was your expected choice.
I figured you, I mean, that's way under budget, right?
So like with that car, you can get the car,
you can get all the parts and you can run track days
for four years for that budget.
There's something to be said about the longevity.
So I'm going to go ahead and say right off the bat,
like we could probably just stop the show
and a lot of people would say this is a good list.
No way.
No, no, no.
I think like there's a lot of people.
I think like this is a list that.
Not saying your list is bad.
I had 12 cards on my list.
I have a carried out.
So I want to start with a car that I have zero experience in,
but I know the lore of it being a very good track car,
which is the SI.
So like just give me, why is that car on the list?
Because it's something that's just like not,
it's not on my radar at all.
Is that?
Like I love like 90 civics and like I understand like
why the new like civic type art is cool.
No.
So that's the.
Just okay.
Yeah.
So I mean, if you want to get into like kind of some
of the nuance, right?
Like so civic was kind of the reemergence, you know,
of what the, you know, like Honda's heritage, you know,
like this, the, so Sixgen is the SI that you know, right?
And then the one before that was like the EP three or?
Yeah.
So the EP was cool, but like a little bit like,
that's a little oddball.
Had the shifter on the dash.
And then, you know, you get into, you know,
kind of a housing crisis era stuff, right?
So not a lot of like real impactful refreshes
at that particular point in time.
By the way, I have never heard an era of cars
as the housing crisis.
2008.
I get it.
But like if you remember that point in time where it's like,
man, all the, all the enthusiast cars are going away,
right?
Like it's the.
It's the rise of the crossover.
Think of how boring Toyota was for like 15 years.
They had nothing cool.
And now they're one of the coolest brands.
Yeah.
We can call it the rise of the crossover.
Yep.
So Civic SI.
K20 Z three, right?
So, you know, K series, great motor, right?
Yeah. A lot of support.
Limited slip, you know, from the factory.
That is nice.
Yeah. From the factory.
I think my whole list is limited slip from the factory.
Which is a really underrated thing.
By the way, before, before when I said,
the one thing you might have to change is like
transmission stuff.
He's like, Nope, not on my list.
He meant to say, because in my head, I was like, you know,
some things like an LSD can really change.
The fit doesn't have one.
The fit doesn't have one.
But like that's.
But it doesn't really make enough power to need one.
It's not.
Have you driven a lot of front wheel drive cars?
The LSD really can change.
It really, really.
I mean, I guess I've only ever driven LSD,
front wheel drive cars on track.
It really can make a difference.
Cause otherwise you, like you literally just put no power.
Cause I guess I take the granted like the Elantra,
the Elantra and I raced or two years ago,
had a really good diff.
That's what makes that car in a way.
The front wheel drive diff on that thing is super developed.
Yeah. It's point and shoot.
Yeah. It's point and shoot.
So, so just with any, with any Honda product,
particularly like the Civic SI, right?
It's just, it's just, it just checks all the boxes.
It's not particularly like flashy or like overly exciting,
you know, or any of those things.
What can they be had for right now?
What's the price point of them?
Like eight.
Eight? Okay.
Yeah. Like, yeah.
So you've got some room to spend.
You got some room to spend, right?
You can, you can get a really good example.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for, for more, you could get, you know,
like, so they're ranged, right?
But like they, you know, but you can find them around,
I think for like, you know, eight, eight, nine, um, you know,
in that, in that era, right?
But it's just like a great daily, you know,
great aftermarket support, you know, uh, and, um, you know,
just as far as like livability plus being able to throw it
around, you know, and not worry about it, right?
Like you can beat the shit out of it, you know, and, and the
other nice thing is if you do put it off, actually,
this isn't even a fact.
And there's probably a lot of, yeah, there's, and you could go
to any junkyard and get a door and a windshield and a panel
and whatever cars, because if you have a car that you're scared
to track day, because if you go into a wall, you're going to
drive slower, you're not going to drive as well, where if
you're eating that thing into corners, like front wheel drive
car, especially like big commitment cars, and you're not
super afraid of crunching a tail light or offender or whatever.
That's, that isn't precious.
I have never seen you be afraid to crash anything I've ever
seen you drive.
I'm also an idiot.
Are there all things that you own?
Some of them.
Again, like I'm missing, I'm missing pieces up here.
It's not, it's not precious.
It's kind of the people's champ, right?
It's got broad shoulders.
It's blue collar, you know, from a track day perspective, I
think, you know, I like it.
All right.
So the other one we might also stay in the Honda theme is the
fit, because to me, I feel like this is like the modern Miata.
And here, and here's my thing on this whole is that like hands
down, and we'll, I don't know, maybe not as on someone's list.
Everyone thinks it should be the answer, right?
Like I've seen that sticker like Mazda, the Miata is the answer.
But I also think one of the things that made the Miata so cool was
that, and I was there when the car came out, like I remember
when the car was new and my friend's mom got it, was that it was
sort of seems like the hairdresser car.
And then all of a sudden it became like one of the most race cars on the
weekend, and it became this, like, if you made, if you were like a
normal car person who didn't know about racing and you made fun of the
Miata, somebody would show up and be like, Miata's faster than an I11 on
track, but they would hit you with all the stuff, most race car on the weekend.
And they're not wrong.
They're not wrong.
Yeah, they're not wrong.
And like big shout out to like Dean Case and the guys over at Mazda like
when they were, they supported that in that era, the Miata did become the
most tracked car on the weekend and all the stuff.
And, and it became this amazing car, but part of its heroic element is
because it is slightly on the unexpected car.
And I think the fit is like that new car that when someone looks at a fit,
the average person doesn't go, wow, that could be a great race car.
That is performance.
No, it's like a micro minivan.
Yeah.
So the fit, I think the fit is great because it's so unexpected as a,
uh, as a good track car and it's not necessarily the best track car, but
it's the most fun that I've had in the last decade is driving a fit.
Right.
Because it eliminates, uh, one, uh, it's, it's full, you know, full chuckable,
right?
Like, like full risk.
12 times every quarter, 12 tenths, 10 quarter is the
epitome of driving a slow car fast.
Yes.
And, and the like, uh, you know, I, uh, I have like a bit, you know,
even though I'm like into tracking, there's like a bit of, there's an anxiety
to tracking, right?
You know, like every time you go out there, right?
You know, especially if you approach it like kind of without ego, um, you know,
and you, that goes away with that car, right?
So you can, you can refine small details.
You can work on your specifics, right?
And you can just like absolutely blast it.
There's really something to be said about that.
Number, number three, um, you know, consumables, zero.
Because it's so lightweight.
It just, yeah, once, once that attires 12 days, you know, like, you
know, like maybe, right?
Like, so, you know, just like budget and it's an excellent pickup truck, right?
The amount of stuff that you can put in the back of a fit, you know,
like you can also sleep in it, right?
So like you want like one thing that like you can get to the track, you
can run the track all, all weekend.
You can get home, you know, you can run the next track day.
You can have money left over and you can just keep sending it.
And you could make them look cool.
You, you can make them look cool, right?
Like, so I mean, uh, uh, yeah, Sam Dooling, who, who is, uh, runs our tech, um, uh,
he, so he, an example of like perfect fit lifestyle, right?
He's got a first, first gen fit.
The second gen fit is just a significantly more progressed and better car as a car
because the fit didn't come to the States till Oh six or something.
But it was, but it existed from Oh two, right?
So we got like a four year old car.
Do you remember when the car first came out?
Cause print mags were still a thing.
Remember they did an entire mag on like that segment of car, like super
street, did like a spin off.
Do you remember that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause when they, when they, when that car first came out, it was, everyone
thought it was cool because the Civic was getting fatter and this felt more
the fit is 100% the spiritual successor to the EF hatch.
They feel the same on track.
They feel the same on the street.
That's how I always felt about the ones that are really selling me.
I'll see that they do.
It's just like, it's so much, I get in, I get my, uh, my son has a fit now.
You know, so like that's his first car and you're like, God, it's such a blast.
You have all those small cars that were popular in like Europe or in Asia that
we never got.
Yeah.
And then they started to bring them in and like that idea of like the
spiritual successor, um, you know, of the car, cause you think the one series
for me is closer to an E 30 or 36 or like the M two is like the true
at three of these days.
Yeah.
But also like for, for in like the Volkswagen side of things, like I had
a Audi A one, which is like a car not sold in the U S and it to me felt like
a mark three, even though it was like a 20,000 and 11.
That's why I loved it because even though it was a newer car,
like the kind of escaped the blow and then you just realized that the only
problem with new cars is they just got too big.
They're too big.
They're too big to know.
All right.
So we need to push through the list.
Yeah.
350Z.
We're, is that like top of your list?
No, this is, this is data driven, right?
Like, so I don't, I, uh, if I, if I look at something that like has a lot of
flexibility, you know, it's, it's rear wheel drive, right?
So cause that's a preference, right?
Like I've, I've tracked front wheel drive cars, you know, for forever, you
know, so, uh, you know, it's rear wheel drive, uh, right?
VQ engine's got a ton of support, right?
You know, it's got, it's got, it's got versatility, right?
So like you enter into, you know, track day culture and want to move into drift
culture and want to have longevity out of this vehicle.
Tons and tons of flexibility, you know, um, and people know how to make them last.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not as like, um, you know, it's unfortunately only available as a
three speed, but.
But the CDO nine is just one of the weirdest.
I don't see, I don't have it.
I don't have like a usable, like, I don't know.
The power band is weird.
Yeah.
So like, I don't know, I don't know those new contracts.
It could be pretty advantage cause you, it is some of the power level it comes with.
It's like, it's very long gear.
It's, it's not a sports car cumbersome as a package, just like a C five or
something like that, right?
So it like has a little bit more flexibility as like a, as like a real
car, you know, like every day, you know, and, um, you know, and like swap
able Japanese parts, right?
So like, you know, still, still inexpensive to keep on the track and keep
going as long as you don't straight pipe it, it sounds good.
Yeah.
Like, I, like, I will go out there and say the stock VQ just sounds great.
My mom had a 350.
She bought it brand new and like it was in manual, great car.
Sounds fun.
Like it's actually, I actually fit factory LSD.
And depending on your factory, Brembo's.
Yeah.
All right.
Um, I mean of his list, what, what, what do you, what would you, what would you
push forward?
What would I push forward?
Yeah, I'm sold on the fit.
Yeah, I am too.
Dude, I think the fit is an instant win.
Cause I think you need, we need a car on this list that is that type of car.
Well, they talk about like the time attack classes, right?
You can almost break them up by like cost of operation, right?
And that's why club SC exists as a class because like the car is cheap.
The cost of operating is cheap.
So it's like cheap period, fun period.
For sure.
You know, like, yeah.
So fit moves forward.
And I, my opinion is that the twins, we didn't get super deep on them, but, uh,
I think the twins move forward.
Yeah.
Um, I even ask questions about it because it's so good.
Now I will say gen one, 40 less horsepower, which is, which is a lot in that car.
Like losing 40 horsepower on the car and it's 60% less stiff than the newer gen.
You can fix some of that, but not all of it.
Um, cause it's chassis, it gets more expensive to make it faster.
Yeah.
But like, so if you, if, and I'm just saying this, we have rules, which is under
15 grand, but if you're shopping a $13,000 FRS or like a later BRZ that is the
newer gen, I would get the newer one.
Oh, every time, but I don't think you can get a newer gen one for under 15.
Uh, maybe like, like, I tried, I tried last night.
No, you can't.
Yeah, you can't, they're 20 plus.
Like I just had a BRZ a couple of weeks ago, just because I wanted to drive it
again, cause he did the best driver's car and he made the list on best driver's
car, pretty high like, I was like, I just want to go drive it again.
And then I went and did a like half day of canyons and I was like, yeah, this
thing's great.
It's just, it's just fun.
Now what I will say, if you live anywhere that's in any kind of altitude, like
if you're living in Utah and you want to do track days, avoid the twins at all
costs, avoid it all.
That's the first time I ever drove one.
And I thought it was broken.
Right.
I was like, this is, this can't be like something's wrong.
All right.
So fit moves forward.
Twins move forward.
Um, there's all the really good ones on that list, but maybe we'll get back to them.
All right, Ron.
Yeah.
Do you feel okay with those two moving forward?
I do.
I mean, I would like, uh, in between like the, if you could pick your two, what were
your two?
I'd get a fit.
You know, I get, I'd get a fit or, or a, or a GI dude.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think so.
Like I put the, the Civic SI is like actually the more balanced package of the
two Hondas, right?
Like it has, it has more, but, um, it's.
The fit just become cooler.
You know, I love the fit when it came out and when Dan was running, when
danger Dan was running the fit, uh, a good life.
He was like, he would call me and be like, dude, you need to get one of these.
Cause he knows that I enjoy that super lightweight.
Like I would prefer a lighter weight car than a fast car.
Like I just enjoy the, I will also say that's a big factor that isn't in our
rule set right now, but I think the fit being so accessible to your friends that
you could convince your friend to get one.
Even if they don't have a 15 K budget, but I'm seeing out here, there's a
movement of like, there's like a fit gang and they'll go on track and they'll
go door to door, bumper to bumper.
And it doesn't matter because it's so much fun, right?
Like, let's buy fit, let's buy fit, let's buy fit.
There's just, there's no, there's no, uh, yeah, it's, it's not precious.
You know, and if we think about the journey of, of track day two, right?
So like I thought about this from the perspective of like, I want a track car.
I'm starting this, you know, um, so like there's room to grow and you're
not going to like blow your budget.
You also like, here's a weird thing.
Like, like the, the ability to mob the fit is, is limited.
It has a ceiling, right?
So you will reach the driving potential of that vehicle and then you will
have to move on and that's what you're supposed to do anyway.
Sure.
You know, otherwise you're going to credit card, but you still enjoy going and
racing it.
Like if you move on, but kept it, you'll always like going back up car, it's
fun, but moving from a fit to like a big boy car, you will wreck any other
driver that just started in the big boy.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Again, the Miata of our time.
Cause the Miata was that.
All right.
All right.
What do you got?
So I actually have, and I want to say the Miata time.
I also think the BRZ or the twins, whatever is also the modern Miata.
That's, that's going to, that's going to be the hero replacement for the Miata.
That's actually not as available easily.
All right.
And let's wait for this with your list.
Okay.
I actually have two lists.
I'll go through one right now.
I have one list.
I have the obvious list.
You're going to want this other one.
You have a goblin list.
I have the obvious list and a goblin list.
This is like things that nobody would think of, but I've seen on track and I'm
like, we might have to save the goblin list for Patreon.
We got that time, but let's go, let's go.
All right.
Uh, obvious list.
C five Corvette.
Um, you could still get him 10 to 15 K.
It was on my list, but I'm not fighting you.
I'm not fighting you.
Move through.
Yeah.
Okay.
Acura RSX type S.
Okay.
Uh, E 46, 330 CI.
Uh, Porsche Boxster S.
And I also had the Fiesta ST.
I'm going to start off by saying, I've done a lot of research into the Boxster S.
Yeah.
And the numbers thing, number one thing that comes out is that that particular
engine has oil, like starting oil cooling.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
And it's a high maintenance response to it because like, yeah.
And I figure what that is.
It's like the M 96 on 97 engine.
Like it is notorious.
Now there's also plenty of people.
If you just like anything on the internet, if you want to find, if you
want to find comfort in buying that car, someone will tell you that like they,
you know, AccuSump, you know, AccuSump makes, you know, this and you can get,
you know, you can get this different pan for it, but right out the box,
you're focusing on a good chance that you're going to bore score that thing.
Yeah, it's on the list because, uh, I think that's such an easy way to get
into a Porsche on track.
Yeah.
It's really cool for sure.
It's also, it is a fantastic driving car.
It handles really well.
The only reason it's never on any of my list is that it's a sub six one driver
fit, like you would be like at the brink with a helmet.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a little tight.
And they got a bit nerfed from the factory to not beat the 9-11.
So it's also the expensive hairdresser car.
Like it definitely filled that space of the Miata, but at the same time, I
think the Cayman's really cool looking.
It's weird.
Just what the Cayman is.
Cayman, Cayman, you can't make the list.
I looked at it.
It's too expensive.
Too expensive.
Yeah.
So you can buy a Boxster for like a dollar.
You can buy a Boxster.
You can get them for like five grand.
You can get them for five grand, fix your engine issues and then be on your
merry-go-round.
You can get them, um, you know, and, and not fix your engine issues until the next
track day for like, just get another one.
You can buy three Boxers and make one good one.
You know what, Boxers is back on the list.
I like that concept.
Um, no, cause I looked at it too, cause obviously being a Porsche guy, I was like,
you know, the Boxster, maybe I don't fit in it, but I, I've driven them
uncomfortably, but I've driven them.
They're, I mean, I, there's an argument that the Boxster is a better handling
car than the 9-11.
Sure.
How you would argue the Cayman GT4 is a better handling car.
Um, the same argument that people made when the 944 came in.
And practicality, practicality, very low.
But women factor higher also when you're like at like a, you know,
like a neighborhood party, totally like, Hey, like, do you race cars?
You're like, yeah, I race a Porsche.
I race a Honda.
Me and my buddies, we race a Honda.
What's that?
Is that like a motorcycle?
No, it's, oh, that's the scooter.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so C-5 Vet.
Uh, what's your opinion on a C-5 Vet?
Because I think like, over-dominator, right?
Like it's just, it's a sports car, right?
You know, like proper, right?
Uh, yeah.
So, so C-5 Corvette, not a, not a, not a bad answer for sure, right?
Like, but also a high consumable.
Yeah.
High, high consumable, but like a lot of, a lot of range on it, right?
Like, so you, you know, you can get a lot of life out of that car and like, uh,
overcook it.
I mean, you can enter, uh, I guess in the time attack classes, you're kind of stuck
to a couple, but, um, you know, but you can, you know, it's on the upper end.
I would definitely do SIM time before getting in it on track.
For sure.
Right.
If the, if the, if you're looking for like an expanding challenge that is
associated with, with raw speed, uh, the C-5 is a really, really good.
And you can stay with that car for a decade.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and it's pretty, it's pretty bulletproof, you know, like, uh.
Great gas mileage.
The hatch is pretty good.
Yeah.
You could fit a lot.
You could fit a set of tires in the back hatch.
It's decently comfortable as like a tourer, you know?
It hits a lot of those points.
And I would say I didn't even think about that factor, but if you've never
driven on track, it's probably not a great idea to be in one.
The one other one I would bring up on that is like, it is not an easily serviceable
car.
I don't know if you remember the C-5 we had at Hoonigan, certain things, but
like doing a clutch job doing a clutch is massive.
It sucks.
Like it without a lift, like it's not the like easy lift.
It's not like something you can service on four jack stands in your garage.
But it's a lot of fun.
Yeah.
It's a good car.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That one that was always someone in the paddock with the C-5.
And if you wanted to also go drifting, it's like pretty turnkey.
Very much so.
It's pretty good.
So I want to talk about the E 36.
Okay.
So 36 versus 46.
Did you have E 46?
E 46 was on my list and that's where the, the Z and 46 were flip-flop.
I don't know enough about BMWs, right?
So like in general.
So like, but why, and, but I found that like E 36 is at least in the variance,
you know, are, are, are kind of riding the line.
They're like going up in price.
So the E 36 is very popular because a nostalgia thing, they look really cool.
That's like the first M three anybody really remembers.
Like the E 30 was like the older head kind of car.
It's arguably golden era Euro.
Yeah.
It's what's really hot right now.
And I think the E 46 is on its way there.
The E 46 to me is like a car that's got a lot more in it.
So like, I don't, you can't get into an E 36 M three, a decent one for 15 grand
anymore, right?
The E 46 330 I is very close to an M three.
I went through the same thing and putting it together in my list.
And it's like the E 46 has better engine options in the mid-level than the E 36 did.
Yeah.
Like the E 36 outside of the M three is like not as great.
And the E 36 just needs a lot more to be track viable in my opinion.
Like BMW, I don't have a crazy amount of experience.
Somebody might eviscerate me, but in my experience, the chassis needs more work.
It needs more money.
Like it's not as fast where the 46 is super balanced, great engine options,
great transmission.
It does have all that issues of like tearing the subframe and the suspension.
Like minor, 46 is your choice.
I heard 36.
No, no, he said 46 is my choice.
No, he did say we're aligned, but that still explains it because the reason I
didn't put it on my list is because I didn't feel confident in my familiarity.
Yeah.
So the 330 data says little number two, the other thing to a good life, the
other thing too, at the 46 is that the 36 was still in an era where like dentists
owned BMWs, the 46 was like your like, you know, like the person across this,
like a normal person owned a 46.
Like that, like BMW kind of dropped down a little bit, sold a lot more cars.
It's got more accessible out there.
There's more in yards.
Um, I personally think that the 36 looks better.
I kind of like how the 36 drives better.
Um, but the 46 is, it's a lot, it's a lot of car, the only BMWs I've ever owned.
And you could get a 330i in the 10s.
Yeah.
That's a lot of car for 10 grand.
Yeah.
And like the basic engine's like pretty decent.
It's pretty stout.
I mean, it's the reason why it is like replaced.
Like a 328, that's where you have to like really nerd out.
You have to pick the right.
That's why 330 is like very specific on there because that with suspension arms
and transmission, diff selection, again, that's the, uh, I think it's a 2.5
liter inline six, like N a, um, it's not quite the M three motor.
It's not the, you know, S 54, but.
And there's also a massive aftermarket for it.
Huge.
I mean, there's so much stuff out there that ranges from like the, like the
guys who make swap kits and knuckles or whatever in the drift world, all the
way to like full blown, like actual race car people.
Right.
Like, like, like turner, limber world, like garage stick.
Like, and then all the guys in Europe who we're not, we don't even think about.
We're like building real race car stuff.
All right.
What else you got on here?
We've got, uh, I want to talk about the RSX.
Yeah.
So this is a car that has now, you brought it up for, one of you guys
brought it up for the best, it was, it was on my list.
It's on my list for many things.
It's reappeared on this list.
I think it's slept on.
I think, uh, there's a lot of them.
And that's brought it up the other day.
And I think the SI is the same car.
Oh, like, they're probably very similar.
Is it the same years?
Is that the same similar?
Yeah.
Same time they're, they're hot, swappable, right?
Those are, yeah, that's the same dude.
To me, to me, it's a look thing, uh, because, uh, like I really like, I, I love
integras, like integras are where my heart's at and that's just spiritual.
Yeah, it is.
And, uh, and you can make them look really cool.
I love them when they came out.
I love them now.
I, I, I brought this conversation up with Nads.
Nads actually said that, like, he thinks it's like, you're not missing much.
Cause I told, I said, I was like, do I need to go drive this car?
Because one, the Patreon list brought it up.
You and, you and, um, Vinnie both were like, yeah, this is a car to go drive.
And it just is like not on my radar.
Yeah.
When did it come out?
2003.
Yep.
So it was, uh, effectively like the must have driven this.
I was a journalist during this era.
Very well, but yeah, it came out after the, uh, you know, the, um,
yeah, it was the end of DC two.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the RSX came out and then that's when the EP civic came out and the
RSX was the clear choice between those two.
If you were a Honda enthusiast, Honda's feel a certain way.
That spirit is, right?
Yeah.
You get into a, you know, a civic SI of any gen, you get into an RSX of any
gen, you get into a CRV, you know, like it feels like a Honda, right?
You know, like, what does that feel from a Honda guy?
Um, it's just, it's just like a different level of like, you can hear the
wind through all the crevices of cars.
And that is that the field, that's the field, that's the strong, that's the
strong, man, I wonder how I did to my door panels.
I wonder how thin this, this glass is.
I mean, I think that's changed a lot.
Like, uh, you know, in, in modern modern era, but like, no, it's just, it's
just a, it's just a steering feel and like, like kind of, you know, it's like,
I get into the NSX and it feels like the CRX, you know, like you just like,
you know, it's like the same design language, really familiar, right?
Like, you know, just, just all this like, kind of a nuance and like, you know,
how, how, how it feels and how you're connected to it.
Yeah.
You know, I get that when I get into like a 992 GT3 RS, it feels just like
a Volkswagen.
Yeah.
Totally.
Totally.
It's pretty much a Beetle, pretty much a Beetle.
Yeah.
Pretty much a Beetle.
So like, as far as like, cause, cause on my list, like, uh, the Civic would be,
you know, I don't know, like it's, I fight for it because like, if you, if one,
the data supports it, right?
That's number one Honda, right?
Like you go to a track day, you know, you're going to see Honda's, you're
going to see a car in that lineage, right?
Because there's like parts from this RSX that can fix that car vice versa.
Same, same thing, right?
You know, and in racing too, like Honda dominates.
I went and looked at the runoffs winners, uh, in the IT, uh, category in 1986, Honda
wins, you know, like, and every year, every year, right?
So just, just having like, who won an 85, I don't know.
I didn't go back for that far back.
Yeah.
But anyway, we'll get back to that course.
Oh, let's just write it right ahead.
I, I right now vote to move the E 46 forward.
100%.
Like it was, it was on my list.
It's a no brainer.
Yeah.
I'm happy with that.
So I think now the conversation is, is what other carbons?
Yeah, but you got, you got some good cars on this too.
So I'm, I'm, I'm fighting for my, for my Honda family now, like, I'm going to say,
because of the limitations with the Boxster from a maintenance side or some
of the, I'm okay with that one being like, I think it definitely deserves
mentioned, I think it should end up in the back.
I think it's only on the list because it's a Porsche.
It's not actually like a great choice.
Hmm.
You're saying like a Pontiac solstice, maybe just as good another road.
So, you know, it's a car that people don't talk about another one, BMW Z three.
What, was the Pontiac solstice maybe good and nobody knew it?
Maybe.
No, it's not.
I drove it on track.
Okay.
I don't know.
It was pretty, it was pretty soft.
You just mentioned one of my goblin list cars.
This Saturn Sky.
Tune in to the Patreon for the goblin list because I have my own goblin list.
He has a goblin list.
We're going to do a whole goblin list on Patreon, but let's keep, let's keep it on.
Um, so, okay, that's out.
Um, the Fiesta ST, um, I put on my list because I feel like it should be on the
list, but it never will be.
There's nothing that the ST can do that the RSX or the fit or the fit can't.
Yeah.
I mean, I would argue that the, I would argue that the, it's closest competitor
is the fit.
It's about the same size.
That's right.
But they're, they're, I mean, like power wise, they're dramatically.
No, no, no, the ST is almost 200 horsepower.
It's a hundred and ninety seven.
I owned a Fiesta and I owned a fit.
The Fiesta is a garbage car compared to the fit, uh, in every single aspect.
Yeah.
It's garbage on track though.
Everything, everything about it.
The, the interior packaging, the, the switches, the knobs, the feel, you know,
like, like the UX, yeah, all of it, like just as a car.
It's funny because me and him have a lot of experience in the Fiesta ST because
of Ken's sponsorship with Ford and that car being brought over, but they were
given to us like disposable candies.
Like, so we just were like, whatever.
Like we didn't care that none of that works because it was like, I don't know,
we just crashed another one.
I mean, we ended up giving what, like 30 of them to T-Monell, which they're still
going, some of those garbage cars, maybe a little bit harsh, but like by comparison
to the Honda fit, cause they, they're in category.
They're like up, they're head to head for the, the common consumer.
Sure.
Like not even close.
But you can get, not even close, but you can get an ST for about the same
price as a fit and the ST is making just shy of 200 horsepower out of a 1.6
turbo that's a pretty decent engine.
Probably a more exciting car, uh, right out the rip because of its speed, right?
And its ability to make speed and it's got an LSD as well, I think, um, you know,
and, uh, you know, it was designed for that, right?
It was designed as a hot hatch.
Uh, the fit like accidentally became one because, uh, it was so thoughtful
and every other at, uh, aspect, right?
You know, like,
Man, what a diss.
You tried to build a performance car and Honda just mistakenly built one.
Just because that's our DNA.
That's what they do.
I mean, I still don't think the fit is a performance car, but it's a great
crack day car, right?
So from his list, we moved forward the fit and the twins.
And the twins.
Okay.
I, I feel like if E 46 moves forward, the RSX, RSX has to be there instead of the
ST, yeah.
So you guys both feel, I agree with that.
Right.
So that checks the box of like, cause the, the Civic, the RSX, there's,
they're similar chassis.
Now between those two and the C five, C five that like, so by the way, we are
stacking a heavy front wheel drive class.
No, I understand.
I think it makes a lot of sense, but it's budget, but it's front wheel drive is
a very compact system, less things to break for me.
It's the battle of C five vet versus C 46.
And I think the deciding factor there, and I don't know the answer, but it's, I
would pick the C five all day, any day, but I have, you know, I'm very lucky to
have a lot of driving experience.
So the C fives way more exciting to me, but starting out, I think E 46 would be
better.
And just from a longevity standpoint.
Like, so, yeah.
So E 46 and RS six is what we're saying.
I would between the RSX and the C five, I would, I would choose the C five and
I'm a Honda guy.
So like I am going to be heartbroken that the SI, if the SI doesn't make the
list and the RSX doesn't make the list, but I also think that it would be in the
price point for track day cars, if the C five is mentioned and doesn't make the
list, that is, I completely agree with that.
For me, it's either C five or E 46 to move forward because they're very
similar, then E 46.
My top three from your list are the vet, the 46 and the fiesta ST mainly
cause I have experience in all three of them.
The big difference is, is like what the RSX gives you is V tech and not even as
a joke, like part of the fun factor of being in a car is like, even if you're
not going that fast, when you're at 8,000 RPM, you feel like you're ripping.
You feel like a hero.
Yeah.
So, you know, versus a ST is like lower in the reverence, just a little lazier,
like you'll, you'll be fast, but like experience wise, are you going to go
home and be like, bro, I can't wait to do that again.
But say that same thing now and you're comparing a C five vet.
Yeah, but the C five vet is like, you know, I can't believe I made it home.
And by the way, I can't afford to go back to the track because I smoke those
tires and I flat spotted those and which is cool.
Cause the sound of that, the sound of the, the VA, like just playing over your head
when you're powering out of a corner, like so sick.
So what is it?
We got to move forward guys.
Well, who chooses like who we choose as a group, as a group, I think we've
narrated down, here's what I'm hearing.
We've narrowed it down to the E 46 moves forward.
We've all agreed there, right?
E 46 C five vet RSX, I think the C five moves forward, right?
So like if, if I was,
let's, let's do the quick vote cause it always comes down to a vote.
We can make this work.
Yeah.
Is it C five vet RSX, C five vet, C five vet.
That's it.
I mean, between those two C five, I would have chosen that SI over the
RSX or RSX, E 46, E 46, E 46.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, you did it both back to back.
I know you want the R six to move forward, but that's fair.
Okay.
So here we are.
This is where we currently sit.
We have, from your side, we have the twins, AKA the FRS BRZ.
And we also have the second gen Honda fit.
Yep.
You were brought to the table, the BMW E 46 330 I.
And in addition, the C five vet.
That's where we stand.
All right, we're going to take a quick little break.
We'll come back and I'll give you guys my list, which is probably also a goblin list.
Here we are with another story time interruption brought to you by my good
friends at FCP Euro.
Look, if you are a frequent listener, a very vehicular, you know, that I have
been threatening to call the herd sell cars.
That's what I've been threatening to do a couple of days ago.
I decided, you know what, I'm going to make the first step.
And the first step is posting a feeler post, see who's interested.
And to my dismay, a lot of people were interested.
The car in question is my 1991 Audi 200 Avant 20 valve turbo.
The problem is it just doesn't fit what I want right now.
I got a couple of the wagons.
I think I want to swap this out for something else.
So I figured put it up on the chopping block over the weekend.
I decided it was time to clean it up, take those photos, try to actually move it
and sell it. Unfortunately, I fell back in love.
How could I possibly get rid of it?
So I deleted the post and immediately went to FCP Euro.com and just started
filling the cart with a bunch of things.
Because see, for me, if I have a lot of parts to finish a car, it makes it a lot
harder to sell, right?
I mean, this, this makes sense.
So I started getting all the basics.
And the first thing is suspension bushings.
This immediately makes a car better.
It had a squeaky belt.
I replaced that.
I needed a clutch master, pick that up and a few other things.
And of course, a whole bevy of liquid molly fluids, you know, because it
makes the car feel happier.
So anyway, I did all that.
And I guess the car is not for sale anymore.
If you too are looking for an excuse not to sell a car, head over to
FCP Euro.com, invest in some more parts and get that project of yours back on
the road and off of the classified posts.
Keep it off of marketplace guys.
Stop selling cars unless you're selling them to me.
Let's face it, living the low life does come with its drawbacks.
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I love that you just start my laughing.
Scott, a smile of just what you're packing in that notebook right now is
probably this is my favorite part of firing.
I actually think I might disappoint you because I think you will.
One, I have a lot of overlap from everybody else.
And as I was starting to go through my list, because we created the rule of no
engine swaps, it really makes a lot of the cars that I would normally go
after not work.
So for example, I love the nine 44.
I think it's a really fun platform.
It's a fantastic driver.
The car and the chassis is really good, but like the stock 9 11, I mean, the
stock nine 44 engine is pretty lackluster.
And the car needs either a inline five swap shout to the booze brothers, uh,
or turbo charging or like an LS swap.
Like it's one of the cars that is actually the current engine in it.
It takes so much effort and work to make it not just like really sporty, but viable.
So I just like, but at the same time, like, I mean, spec 94, 944 exists.
Like, you know, like I actually did look at 944s as well, but same thing.
Like kind of a semi-gutless engine by comparison.
Unless you get the turbo, the turbo is 20 grand plus now.
It's not as inexpensive.
Right, right, right.
And in this list in general, I think, uh, the audience will notice
not a lot of turbo cars and, uh, I think that's by design, right?
Like, I might change that on my list.
Okay.
Nice.
Well, let's get into it.
Okay.
So, uh, at the top was, was the Corvette C five on the, on the things that were
even said, because it's just for like enjoyment.
Yeah.
Like I know it's going to not be the easiest.
I know it's going to be the one that's going to have a ton of issues and have
like, you know, the consumable element, but you can also get most of the parts
for Napa, which is kind of nice.
No, right?
Like you can race that anywhere in America and not only find parts for it,
but find someone who knows how to work on it.
Yeah.
Because it's like, and you can race it in a, in a variety of applications.
Right.
Like there's, there, it's almost everything.
Yeah.
And having gotten to once drive a Pratt and Miller C six, like, I know
the capability of where it can end up at the end, right?
Like, I love, I love the growth path of it.
Yeah.
And like, was the compuware like that era, like so good cars are just like all
time, but we've already said it.
We've already moved it forward.
Uh, the twins was also on my list.
I just like, it's, it's that car that I don't know if I would ever own one,
but like I'm a huge champion for it.
I, I, I look at it, uh, and think about owning it several times over.
I don't know if I'd ever actually own one.
I need, I'm just, I'm about an inch too big for it, but like a new seat could
change that, but I'm an inch too big to own it every day, but it's still, I mean,
for a small Japanese car, the fact that it fits my six foot eight frame is pretty
amazing.
Like I can still turn laps in it.
I have to do this with a helmet, but like it kind of works.
I wouldn't pass any actual regulation because I have no room.
If I wasn't, if I wasn't gravel obsessed, I would be in one today.
Yeah.
Easily.
Okay.
So the next one for me is another repeat.
And this is what always becomes a problem because it means that my list ends up
being my two goblins.
Because I just repeat all the ones, but this is one that didn't make it
more, which is the Fiesta ST.
And I think there's something really that is a car that it was on all,
that's the only car that's on all three of our lists.
So even though we like haven't moved it forward yet.
Very interesting.
It's very interesting.
And for me, I think it has a lot to do with one, the small chuckability of it.
The engine is 1.6 turbo is a fun motor, 200 horsepower out the box.
Like they're really affordable.
I mean, you can find them for like seven or eight grand, which is really,
really good buy for what that car is.
Um, and then, uh, I will go to, uh, this one, which maybe I, I just,
this is an entire platform space or configuration that we have not talked
about, which is we have no all wheel drive cars on our list.
GDWRX, he's given me a look of like, that's a nightmare.
I mean, if you want to oil down the track, that's a good choice.
Spoken from experience.
Yeah.
I mean, you had one, but I considered it.
Like it's, it's in the affordable space.
Look, the Audi guy in me wanted to say an Audi, but like, there's no
Audi for that price that is reliable and isn't going to be a huge nightmare.
Maybe in our S four would be kind of fun.
I mean, a S four would be kind of fun, but like a B five S four, but like,
they're a huge pain to work on when things go wrong.
They're not that easy to service.
And I, the minute I say it, Ron's like, the engine's in front of the struts,
which is not only that, I think the, the reason why you don't see a lot of all
wheel drive cars on here is because like a GD is a amazing daily, really fun
in different conditions and everything on the track.
It will not make you a better driver because you're just fighting understeer.
And with that car, it's an open diff in the back.
It's an open diff up front, like the centers, you know, not breakable.
So there's, you would have to do so much to it to make it rotatable that like
you're out of your range.
The problem is, is the STI, which I think is a better, phenomenal because
you do have, if you could find an STI for 15 grand, 15, you're getting the
bottom of the barrel for like, yeah, they used to be that you could pick them up
there. I mean, I bought, I bought my STI for 12 grand.
I got my EVO RS for 15.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, good ones are way, are now in the 20s and the ones that are
leftover or like have just, they have seen a life you don't want.
And I think the problem is like the anxiety of, uh, you know, like you can
stay flat out in a Honda all day, every day, every lap, don't worry, pull it
back in, whatever, with an EJ, unfortunately, like you're always kind of
worried, is this going to blow up, is this going to, whatever, and the
transmission on those years isn't great either.
We have a lot of, uh, Subaru's in the grid life ecosystem.
So they do, they do great platform, budget.
I also looked at the gen after, I forget what that one is, but the 2008
those are much better.
Yeah.
I looked at that as well.
Having driven both, I just enjoy how the, the, like the GD, it just feels
like lighter cars and feels proper steering feels better.
Like you've drove, you had yours, which is the reason you're named Ron car.
Cause we called that car Ron car.
That's right.
Um, but like you have, you know, you had a lot of experience in that car in a
very modified world, like your bone stock, I, cause I started my first track
day, I did in it.
I just had wheels and tires and then I evolved it to like full swap everything.
You know, um, and it's an amazing mid-range car.
The thing that it lacks is the simplicity of a lot of the other cars that
we've talked about, right?
So like that's really, it's only like detriment.
It certainly is an option.
It certainly is viable.
If we're looking at like cheap track day car, it doesn't, it doesn't come up.
Cause what you're saying is even though the chassis can be
accessible, found what it takes to make it better or to make it compete.
Is not necessarily, it's just, it's just, it's just the, uh, I wouldn't
even necessarily say that they're not reliable.
They just have more things that could, could go wrong, could go wrong.
That could break, right?
It's a more, it's more complicated.
You know, um, you know, just being an all wheel drive system, you know, like
there's just more, it's just more to deal with.
So let me ask you a question.
If it was an STI, absolutely.
Yeah.
It would, it would be high up on this list, but it's hard to find them in that
price.
And yeah, by the way, if anyone's got a nice white blob by, let me know.
Two, I'd like to buy one Hawkeye for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I still wouldn't put it on the track day.
List for me as a track day car.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, that's like one of the first real, I think like accessible
turbo cars.
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Now I'm like remembering that era, right?
And like just how much of a splash that, and like when the EVO like finally
came, you know, state side, it was like, the arms race started.
Ape shit.
You know, like, uh, I remember my buddy Sterling, like sold, he like showed up.
We used to have this, uh, meet every Thursday, T-Bell night.
So it was like, we'd go to Taco Bell every Thursday, Park in the parking lot,
you know, get, get some T-Bell and hang, you know, and then, uh, Sterling.
I don't know if he calls it T-Bell.
I know.
T-Bell all day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, and then Sterling showed up, uh, bought like quietly bought, you
know, the EVO.
That doesn't let anybody know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then he like, then he like rolled up or like, fuck is that?
You're like, oh, shit.
Yeah.
I'll never forget that.
That was a rad, a rad.
That era, like defined the car world for me.
Yeah.
WRC was on speed channel.
Yes.
Watching the whole season, learning who Petter Solberg is.
Watching these cars.
You could get the same thing at the dealership.
You get one.
The EVO nine came out and with a downpipe and a tune, somebody ran 11, nine.
Yeah.
And like that was like, wasn't the, was it the Hawkeye that had like the sprayer for
the cool, the water sprayer, from the factory, changing the balance of the center
diff front to rear, like the vortex generator in the back, auxiliary lights.
It had all the buttons.
It had all the things like, oh, so I'm going to bring my last one.
All right.
My last one, I will start by saying that it's outside of everything we've been
talking about, and that is, it is a Mark two Volkswagen GTI 16 valve, specifically
1989 to 1991, right?
Okay.
Here's why this just goes for the bang for the buck thing.
Right.
It is under 2000 pounds in race set.
That means with a full cage, you're under 2000 pounds.
16 valve engine is about 135 horse stock.
It is a really, really well proven recipe.
They raced them.
I mean, there was like a GTI cup in America.
There is GTI cups all over the world.
And it is just a really fun, simple car to drive.
I prefer the Mark one as a driver, but the Mark two is just a better chassis.
Like it's just, it's a little bit more adorable.
If you crash a Mark one, like the, the Francis subframe is integral to the
chassis.
So like you have a bad off and you might write off your check.
You might not write off the whole car.
Like the Mark two has like it shares parts with the Mark three.
If later on you want to swap in an engine, there is a huge list of Lego parts that
fit as well as brakes.
You can do junkyard upgrades to that car.
Like you literally that car, you can keep running because Volkswagen basically
built parts that fit into that all the way until now, right?
The EG of your world.
Yeah.
And it's, and it has, I want to say this, it was the Miata before the Miata.
Like that and the CRX were two cars that people didn't take seriously in the
world of racing and then would get shown up by one on track.
Right.
Like those are the cars, like runoffs, like SCCA runoff.
Like that was a car that did really well.
Right.
Like you go back and you look like, you know, was it David Wallins from, you
know, grassroots motorsports, like he owned one, like Per Schroeder owned one.
Like it is one of those cars that all the people who wrote about racing when we
were younger all had one and I've driven one on track.
I've owned one as a personal car.
Um, they're great.
Like it's really simple and they're very, very, very easy to work on comparatively
to a lot of the newer stuff.
There's no electronics.
That's like, it's basically, it's electric controlled mechanical
CIS injection, which like, I don't love the CIS part.
It's definitely a, it's definitely a thumbs down moment, but if you can keep it
working, it's, it's kind of fine.
It's like motronics, CIS, it's, it's whatever.
But that for me, I think is like, it's outside of what we're talking about in
terms of all these other ones, I think show up and you can kind of buy them.
And they're like ready.
Sure.
Right.
This might take a little bit more of a week to get it going, but shit.
I bought a car.
I bought a Mark one in New York and then went directly to Lime Rock with it.
And all I did was put our triple eights on it, which was really dumb.
It just, it almost rolled the car a little too sticky, right?
Your suspension's not sticky enough to like, I was almost, I was almost like a
focused guy who rolls at the auto, at the auto.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Classic.
Uh, Chris, you had a line in the group chat last night.
I don't remember what I said.
I have the data.
Only six Volkswagen's have been raised.
He's like, I have the data of over 10 years of cars on track and grid life.
Every event, every year, every month, hundreds of cars, six Volkswagen's.
And my guess is they probably all, my guess is in recently, they probably
mark seven, the mark seven, mark seven and a half great car.
Great car.
The problem is, is the reason, the reason I didn't bring it to the list is I
think when you look at the German front wheel drive offerings, it's really good.
Yeah.
Right.
I would probably pick it over like a mini, right?
Even though the mini is also really good and probably a box of our car.
All day, every day, pick it over a mini.
But we've had minis on the track too.
Yeah.
And I think like that.
I think it's a great one, but I know that it's a hard fight to put that up against
the civic aside, right?
I, for, for what it is, not saying that that, like of all of the modern
Volkswagen's, everyone I talked to, they're like, yeah, seven, seven and a half.
I've also never driven one on track.
So it's hard for me to speak.
What I'm saying though is like, for the pure fun factor, I, this is why we like
the fit, the fit is trying to be and trying to emulate.
It's a, it's a Honda fit with a different king, a CRX or an original golf.
It's an underdog story.
It's an underdog story.
One, everyone will root for you.
You can actually be the slowest person there and still get high fives.
It's an underdog story, but there's also just a rawness.
Like that car just has a night, like for a front wheel drive car, it has
really good connection to steering.
You can feel everything in it really well.
You probably could build the whole car for 15 grand.
Although 16 valves are getting a bit more expensive.
It's probably, how much are they like, there's one for sell right now for
seven grand in a good color.
So like that's like, if you found a bad, like a black or something less people
are excited about, you could probably pick one up for, what's a good color?
Um, Montana green.
Oh yeah.
That's a good one.
Great.
That is a good one.
So I look, I look, I'm obviously biased to my Volkswagen's, you're biased to
your Hondas, there can be arguments made both directions, but I just, we don't
have a single car in this list.
That's really even nineties or eighties.
And I just think that there is, and I know there's a reason for it.
Yeah, there is a reason for it, but like you, there, I don't know.
I just, for me, just as a pleasure side, it's like, if I was to pick between
a fit and the GT and like a GTI, I would probably choose the GTI because
I enjoy suffering.
I realized that the fit would be such an easier ride, but like, I think
from a smile level, like there is just something fun and about that.
Like, for you, would you pick that era Honda?
Well, I'm like, uh, I like no too much, right?
Like I think about safety.
And I think about like, you know, even with my E at like, I'm a CRX guy, right?
You know, I think about my CRX, I think about a C five Corvette.
I think about us sharing the track.
I think about the modern era of tracking.
I think about, uh, you know, new Supras and, and big cars and tiny cars.
Just how fast everything's gotten from all those things.
Yeah.
Like so, so that's probably like a bias that I shouldn't present, you know,
because like, I like my, yeah, no, like my, yeah, my CRX, it's like, you
know, like, shit, I don't want to get hit by somebody else on this track.
You know, not because I'm worried about getting hit on track, but because
of like, how far vehicles have come and who you're sharing the space at this
point, right?
So it's like, if I'm looking at civics, right?
Like I am an EF, you know, I am an EF kid, like through and through, you know,
uh, you know, you could probably, for 15 grand, you could probably find an EG,
you know, you could probably find, you know, an EK, you know, so like that,
that's, that's, that's why like some of the things that I really love and
gravitate towards, like didn't make the list because I'm thinking about this
moment in time, which sucks, but it's like, it's like, kind of like, yeah,
we're vintage racers.
I know it's not weird.
That's what's going to happen.
We're vintage racers.
We're like the guys who are like taking out like their old E-types or whatever.
So we're vintage racers.
They are.
So yeah.
I'm a mid-range racer.
Yeah.
All right.
I mean, but that's, so like that, you know, that, that, uh, that GTI that
you're presenting is like, it's, it's vintage.
That's, that's an inner class.
So, but I would, I would choose like, I would probably choose that car over the fit.
You know, like it with all that stuff removed, right?
With everything that I just said from a practicality, with everything that
you're thinking about for this moment in time, you know, um, that
would be a much, a much, yeah.
Unfortunately for you guys, because I'm at the end and a lot of my choices
and pick, there's not that much, you only get to choose between the three
because it's either Fiesta ST, GD, WRX, or the 1990 Mark II, Mark II,
some tactics that I think the Fiesta goes on the list.
Yes.
Because it's been brought up so many times.
Right.
Like it's a, it's like forgotten about.
It's like, let's repeat for the, for everybody.
So we've got, we have the fit.
Yep.
We have the twins.
Yep.
We have the C five, C five and the E 46.
So we're actually now pretty stacked rear wheel drive.
Yeah.
Right.
And then we just moved forward the Fiesta ST.
So it's another front wheel drive car.
So now we're, we're WRX versus, versus the vintage racer.
You don't even have to ask me.
And I'm not just saying that to go against you as much as I enjoy that.
Um, I would move, I would move the WRX forward.
Not, not to, not to, to crush your, crush your hopes and dreams, you know,
but, um, I think it's, it's a different, it's a different era for the moment.
Right.
Like it's, it's vintage, you know, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it like
somebody asked me, Hey, I want to get a track car.
I wouldn't be like, Oh, you really need to find like a, you need to find a 1990,
you know, EF hatch because it like had the updated, what I did it like that
wouldn't, that wouldn't be what I would say.
You know, so with that being said, you know, the WRX, because one, it versus,
it, it brings a diversity to the list because there's a lot of fans of all
wheel drive, a lot of fans, you know, um,
and once you fix a few suspension things on it, it's, it's great.
The car is great.
It's great.
And that's, that's got a wide support.
Aftermarket, crazy aftermarket and the biggest.
And I would also argue that the GD also has a recipe.
Like so many guys have raced it both on like the, a very basic level to full
blown time attack, like crazy, you know, Aaron, when you think about a lot of
the cars we looked at and dreamed about in super street in the early days,
we're like time attack STIs, the John Otto one, bunch of camber up front,
big old sway bar in the rear.
Like you could get it to do some stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
Okay.
So our list as we move into the blind spot right now is not a Volkswagen
golf, so I'll just double check.
I'm just double checking 60 dollars off the list.
I'm sorry, I tried to fit it in.
I tried to fit it in.
I get your point.
I get your point.
Maybe we'll, maybe we'll have to do a vintage.
Yeah.
What, what we call Neo vintage.
Yeah.
So it's like the Neo vintage track car list.
That could be a really fun one.
Cars built from like 75 to 95.
Yeah.
I mean, we open up, open up a grassroots motor sports from, you know,
nine, nine, 19, you know, or, or, 1999.
Yeah.
And you'll see all these cars.
Cause these are all, this is what they're racing.
Those are the cars for the original standard, which is one of the reasons why
it's on the list for me.
Cause it has been on my list and I have researched it since 1996.
Right.
Like since that era, I have researched racing this car.
It's like, there is a wealth of knowledge right here in my mind.
Right.
You, you were rattling and you had to, you know, that's it.
I was like about to start like really lit and I was like, I'm not going to go.
I'm like, see both of you, you were both waiting for the conversation.
I was like, I started talking in spring rates and I'm like, all right.
I'm out.
I'm out.
I'm out.
Layer two, layer three.
And I was like, oh, is he going to step in a layer four?
Is it going that deep?
I told Nick, I was like, all right.
I was like, the hell I'm dying on today is a mark two GTI 16 valve.
But yeah.
All right.
All right.
So here's our list.
We have C five Corvette.
We have Honda fit.
I just love saying those back to back.
And then we have a FRS slash BRZ, AKA the twins.
Yep.
We have the GD WRX, which spans the 2002 to 2007 span.
And then we have the Fiesta ST and last, but not least, we have E 46, 36, 330,
which is important because you can get some pretty, you can get some
bonzo ones, pretty bonzo E 46 is out.
Yeah.
So it's a good looking track day.
So that's a good looking track day.
That's like, isn't that a good looking track day?
Great track day.
Yeah.
Like think about the GDs going home on a triple A flatbed, but it's still a
flat day that's lapping everybody.
No, it's a good looking track day.
That's a good, that's a good looking intermediate session.
I think so.
Like that's decent.
So now, now we break out the blind spots.
So the folks on Patreon have put together their list of things, of things
that we tend to miss.
Um, and I've actually found this to be super useful.
By the way, if you don't belong to the Patreon, go join you.
If you, if this like two and a half hour or the other three hour shows is not
enough, which all of you are complaining, we should do a five hour show.
You just get more on the Patreon, but you also get to be involved in the
background of making shows like this.
Okay.
Um, Jackson B says vintage racing stuff.
He's like E 21s, Dotson, Celicas, rabbits.
We just had that conversation.
Yeah.
And there, there is one answer for all of those that crushes them all.
He said, when he said this, I mean, this is like, I should add him as a friend
somewhere.
He said something you can throw a Weber or two on for that nasty 100
horsepower at the crank.
Hell yeah.
This man has been reading my diary.
This is a scato fan through and through.
There's one answer for that.
And it crushes everyone else.
Lotus Alon.
By the way, by the way, Jared, AKA, uh, chapel, uh, we talked about earlier, uh,
we talked about on the Patreon special, uh, he's like 15,000.
Geez, that's not a budget.
Six thousands of budget.
And you know what?
I agree.
Originally I was going to put the number really low, but I do think it starts
to kind of be this like, it's slightly unrealistic or you end up only being,
you're like, yeah, I want a golf 16.
Because like you can't, but you're either buying, well, no, you start getting
into the like, can you search and find a car that cheap?
Like I'm sure I could find a salvaged crash BRZ that I could build back up to
make a track car.
You could definitely find everything we've set on this list.
For example, our C five Corvette, we bought for five grand.
Yeah.
So that car is possible.
That was kind of a unicorn deal.
But I, I so hate when you watch YouTubers and they're like budget build.
I bought a nine 11 off my friend for six grand.
And you're like, yeah, that doesn't exist anymore.
We bought the knucklebusters M three.
I bought for two grand E 36.
Like you can't buy that anymore.
So it's like, it's really, it's really the window of that.
I think it was a good price range because it like gets you to the point
where you're like considering things that you can't get.
And then you can, you can really easily come in under with, with everything on
our list, you know, so, so then you talk about budget, you still got to get to
the track, still got to pay for that stuff.
So we got it.
We got a wild card here.
So it's a Lexus IS 250.
Oh, hmm.
So that was, that was the manual transmission option.
Right.
You could get the manual in the 250.
You could get manual, but that's the thing is that they're kind of tough to
find.
Yeah.
So that seems like a hunt.
I don't necessarily disagree that that would be, and it's on the heavier side.
Yeah.
Like it's on the heavier side.
Yeah.
If you're, if you're looking at that, like just get a Z same experience.
Just get a Z.
Yeah.
Yep.
On the heavier side.
There's a lot of people in here saying Z C four Corvettes, Mark four
golf, one eight turbos, not a C four, not a C four is like a completely
different suspension.
Like C five, C six is like the Corvettes made for, if you want to spend most of
your life on the internet, learning how crossfire injection works, get a C four.
Other than that, I had to learn how to do that just to help Kyle fix his car.
Um, let's see what else.
Uh, we obviously have our Europeans bringing in things like the reno, like
McGain, McGon, Cleo, things like that.
Obviously not great cars.
Other people are bringing up the Boxster.
We talked about that.
Um, someone here said that the Toyota Echo or the JDM fits first gen.
I don't know much about that car, but they wrote a lot about this.
And it actually sounds pretty exciting.
Yeah, that's cause it's, it's a fit size vehicle here.
So that's like, that's like the whole B spec.
There's a, there's a spreadsheet, um, that, uh, is put together that tells
you every single car that we know of that fits into the Sunday cup class.
Clevesse.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
So, um, and like where, where, where it fits.
And it's a, it's a ton of cars.
I got another, someone brought up the RX eight, which the RX eight is the
perfect example for me of like an amazing car.
It just needs a different engine.
Yeah.
Like that, that falls into the nine 44 or completely different gearing.
The RX eight has been rising in conversation, like throughout my worlds.
You know, have you driven one?
No, they are fantastic.
Yeah.
We, we got into this driver's car side.
Same key.
Yeah.
I feel like they look like, like a, like a botched circumcision, but like, that's
fine.
It's like, it's weird.
There's like some four scan is going on.
It's just on one side.
Like extra flaps.
Like, I dunno, it just looks like something went wrong there.
Um, that being said, I still, like, I, I, they're just, they're really,
really fun to drive.
Like, yeah.
Great chassis.
It just, it's just the reliability of the renaissance engine is, is really
problematic.
Yeah.
They're in the range cost wise.
Oh, easily, easily.
Um, this is a huge blind spot.
I questioned putting it on my list and I just couldn't, but like, it was S one
97 Mustangs.
Yeah.
I looked at those.
I just have, I have done a lot of track time in those cars and I never liked them.
I just didn't, I get that they can be quick.
I just didn't enjoy them driving.
I remember doing a road trip with Vaughn and we went and did like some track
stuff and I just kept asking him, I'm like, do you really like how this car drives?
And he was like, this is one of the best sports cars.
I'm like, no, it's not.
Like I drive sports cars for a living and write about them.
Like I do not enjoy driving this car.
The fit and finish and like how the interior feels is like if Fisher price
tried to make an actual car, but I'm telling you, people are going to go
super hard in the comments because there's an entire group of people who
track those.
Totally.
You see a lot of them on your side or is it kind of a different demo?
It's, no, there's, we've got Mustangs, but like if this, if the C five exists
on this list, why do you need the Mustang?
Good point.
Exactly.
I agree.
You don't because if you want the big V power, they check the same box and
like the C five is clearly a better choice.
You would get a Mustang and you would track a Mustang because you're a
Ford guy or like you, you have to be that dude or you like Mustangs, you
know, like otherwise C five wins that conversation hands down easily.
Um, another one, uh, I mentioned this quickly before, but BMW Z three,
preferably the 3.0, I think that is like a quick, like that is another Miata
type, uh, vehicle.
I had that almost on my list, but it's also a vehicle I barely fit in roadsters.
Don't make it to my, you know, they're not really in your realm outside the
Spanish.
Yeah.
I mean, like, uh, I mean, they, they certainly are sports cars.
I just like, you lose a lot of practicality too.
Shev Garfield says the Mark two GTI golf and then he says, yes, I'm biased.
And then you realize his avatar is a Mark two GTI race car comment.
How much scuttle paid you mini?
We talked about that.
Um, here's one that, um, I thought was really interesting and it made me go
do a marketplace hunt last night and then do some research, but it said the 190
E and it's base.
It says incredible suspension, boring engine.
And it's like, I only really know the 190 E is the causey version, right?
She's like the two, three variant, but I, you know, I was like, I wonder if, and
then I like started reading and a lot of people say that the 190 is like such an
amazing, like just like chassis car, but just doesn't have a good engine.
Obviously that doesn't fit into this group, but I found people who do two J swaps
for them.
And then I just was like that.
Like I lost like a good hour and a half last night researching cause I was like,
man, a 190 with a, with a J that could, that could be pretty good.
Um, one of the best sounding engines this, let's see what else we got here.
Uh, a lot of Hondas are on this list, right?
I'm so glad.
There's a lot of vintage, my goblin list has not been cracked.
There's a lot of, a lot of Hondas are on here.
FC, FB arc seven.
I think that fits into what we're saying.
The Neo, that's our new vintage kind of class.
Um, this, someone brought this up and I went and looked at it cause I
actually thought, man, this actually might not be a bad competitor and
something I don't think anyone's talked about is the Veloster N.
Because that, and it's, but it's on the cusp.
It's on the cusp like, yeah, you can find one for 15, but there
not going to be a great example.
They're not there yet.
And if you're spending that much, you might as well, they're not there yet,
but like, yeah, that's actually like really fun car, really fun car.
We spent some time in them and it's a very, very like nice handling car.
Good power.
That's going to be one of those brands that in 10 years from now, you'll see a
lot of like Elantra ends and Veloster is on track because they probably won't
keep their resale value.
Absolutely.
You'll be able to go and somebody will make them really cool.
Like a group of guys will make them awesome and then you see the resurgence.
All right.
So, oh, and here's another one, which like a kind of love, uh, John
Bouser Matthews says the Crown Vic.
So Crown, Crown Vic has like kind of the same type of aura as a fit, right?
So like, they kind of fit, they kind of fit into the same category of like
track day clown car a little bit, you know, I mean, I've spent a good
amount of time raising Crown Vicks as well.
And they're fucking great.
Yeah, they're really fun.
Yeah.
We were just talking about that last time, the Taxi Derby.
Uh, the Taxi Derby, obviously Cletus has done three of the Cletus races.
And like, I got to raise Bristol Motor Speedway in one and A, it's terrifying.
But B, like you really have to be good.
Like it teaches you like a lot of stuff.
It's a big, heavy, boaty car.
You have to be very deliberate and very smooth with your inputs.
And you can learn a lot from that.
I just want to bring up a comment that, uh, that was added about the WRX.
And I kind of forgot about this for other regions, uh, fantastic ice racing car.
Great ice racing car.
And if you live in the North, there is really easy accessibility to ice racing.
And like we talked about this before, having a track car that can blend
into other stuff, or even things that could be fun to go do an autocross with
like C time, C time, that does actually give the WRX.
Well, because none of the other cars we talked about are that much fun.
No, yeah, yeah.
And there are a few things that are more fun than ice racing.
I know it's so good.
It's really good.
Yeah.
Um, all right.
Other than that, there's really not much other stuff on the, I feel like we've
mentioned, oh, yeah, this is the other one that was a blind spot.
Uh, this just is like, this car is a blind spot, full stop.
Yeah.
Like I just never think about this car ever.
The Toyota MR2.
It was on my list and then off my list and then back on my list.
I've, again, small car, I don't really, I've got a chance to drive, but when
I was doing research into this, it definitely shows up on lists.
Yeah.
I think sport compact car back in the day, they tried to make it like even close
to a stock Elise and they couldn't.
Yeah.
But very cool looking and, and it might be really fun.
I'm never driven one.
It looks like a bar of soap, you know, that's what people said.
They were like, it's basically an Elise because it's the same engine.
And then I read like a review and it said something to the effect of like, it's
got all the things about the Elise, except for the things that make the Elise
great.
I was like, okay.
There is a guy here, uh, locally that in SoCal drivers club, he has one
that's built, looks sick, looks like an absolute blast.
And it's like, yeah, it makes you kind of think.
Yeah.
Okay.
So here's the part of the game where we get to make a decision of whether or not
anything on the list of the blind sides moves forward or by, and when I say that
it has to take the place of something else.
And I want to bring this up because this is a blind side that would normally be
the car, which is the Miata MX five was on none of our lists.
And for the audience, we had a pre-production conversation
about putting this all together.
It's on Patreon.
And originally we were going to say top five, uh, track day cars that are not
the Miata, because we all thought that the argument was that the Miata
would be in first place.
The Miata is not on my list.
I'm six foot eight is the dumbest car for me to drive.
Also not on Ron's list.
Cause I think you also have a hate issue in the car.
Not even that you just think it looks like perfectly still wouldn't pick it.
Just, and it wasn't on your list.
Just cause it doesn't need to be.
It's already on enough lists.
And all right, right.
So like it, and I wouldn't, I had a NA Miata, you know, like, uh, that for a
little bit, you know, like if I was going to buy one, I'd probably buy an NB.
Um, you know, uh, but I wouldn't.
Yeah, we, we had shark art, which was fantastic, but it was amazing, but
it also had a supercharger on it, like, which made, it was not as much fun
without what made shark art awesome.
When we saw the body, when we removed everything that looked like a Miata from
it, the number one way to make the Miata goal was to make it not look like a Miata.
So, all right.
So I mean, I just, cause you know that there are people right now listening to
this frothing that we are saying that the greatest top five cars does not
include, does not include the Miata.
All right, we're moving forward.
Uh, well, wait, you had an argument for the eighth gen civic.
Yeah.
The eighth gen civic.
So you think the eighth gen deserves a swap out.
And I will say, I will say, looking through the list of, uh, everybody who was
in the blind spot, it was constantly repeated.
It was like, it was on almost everybody's.
Yes.
So I, I think, uh, to not have a civic on the list, you know, uh,
it's a little crazy.
It's crazy.
It's a little crazy.
You think, if you had to choose between the civic and the fit, which one would
you choose?
See, this is tough, right?
So like, I would choose the fit because it's the spiritual successor to my
experience, you know, and, um, it's the cheapest to operate.
However, you know, if you also, I don't believe I'm saying this out loud, it
oddly looks cooler.
Well, yeah, just an interesting car.
Like you said, it's just a small Honda Odyssey.
Yeah.
It's what it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, but, um, you know, the civic is, is, is flexible, right?
Like you can, you can wheel the wheel it, you know, the, it's got the K motor, right?
Like, you can really grow into it.
Yeah.
You know, like it's, are you a big K motor fan as a Honda guy?
Um, I don't have any cars that have a K motor.
I feel like it's the LS of Honda engines and I don't say that.
Like it's like the LS of everything.
Yeah, but it's like, it's the LS of small motors, but it just doesn't sound good to
me, which is a huge part of the experience.
Yeah.
I've, um, I'm a B series guy full support.
Yeah.
So, so yeah, like the, the CRX I'm building is B series, you know, so, and that's my
build, right?
And I'm taking the B series that came that I, that I had in my track car and
doing like a full, if I was going to do it again in 2002, I'd do it like this.
And that's my final boss for, so you're making the argument that
eighth gen should be on the list, but instead of what?
Instead of the Fiesta, a hundred percent.
Like, so the Fiesta is unfortunately, by the way, I do want to point out, so the
Fiesta is the bridesmaid, like always the bridesmaid bridesmaid, because it has been
invited, it has been invited to each of our lists, but it doesn't get to come.
It was, it was, it was a sympathy vote, you know, like even on my list, I was
thinking about it and I was like, focus ST, Fiesta ST, I was like, I like smaller
stuff, Fiesta.
Fiesta ST is a way better car.
Way better, yeah, yeah, it's like not even close.
So it was, it was a, yeah, it was a sympathy vote, uh, you know, from the rip.
Um, and it sounds like it might've been a sympathy vote across the board.
I think it's, I think it actually, in my mind, I thought it was going to be a
blind spot for everybody.
So I was surprised to hear you say it, less surprised for you to say it.
We obviously have rally background.
So it's a car that has value there, but it was just kind of like a fun,
whippable car, really good price and not a Honda.
So that's why I put it on my list.
Cause I like people forgot about it.
I mean, look, if I had, like, let's just play the game.
So SI, SI or ST.
SI, 100%.
SI, begrudgingly, because I would rather have the RSX, but still between those
two, yes, the, the SI and the RSX, motor trends car of the year.
If you had to choose between the SI and the RSX, what would it be for you?
SI.
Yeah.
Because like the, uh, the RSX, like aesthetically, um, you know, like,
I think the RS, I think the RSX is a better looking car, way better car.
I mean the SI to his point, it looked, you know what the SI looks like is you
took a photo of the Odyssey and you were in Photoshop and you grabbed the wrong
thing and you just like squashed it.
That's kind of what it looks like.
Like you just reshaped it by mistake.
Just because of the angles and the like headlights and the slope of the, the hood
and the front bumper.
I remember when that car came out looking at it and being like, huh, how
the mighty have fallen.
Yeah.
It was a little bit of a spaceship, right.
This is just bored.
Do we want to then have the argument of RSX or SI?
You know my answer.
I think, I think amongst the Honda community, there's, there's similar, right?
So like, you know, eighth gen, it's like, that's the, that's the best of what we
can, you know, what you can get in that price range, but like, you can't lose.
So here's the thing.
I, if I had to vote body panels, you guys are on the two sides, replaceable
parts, bits and pieces, odds and ends, the RSX is going to be more expensive.
I never see RSX is on the road.
Yeah.
Much, much more difficult, you know, in that regard and, and like the, you're
going to have to hunt for one.
So right now it's a tiebreaker.
You guys are both on the side.
I obviously don't have much experience in either.
I'm going to take his, his argument, we'll live in a moderator world here, his
argument for the panels and that it was ubiquitous in the list on Patreon.
So we'll move to SI.
Okay.
So this gives us our final list, right?
I have it here.
So I don't make any mistakes.
We have going into the final round, the ultimate rumble, the Corvette C five, the
E 46 330 I, the twins, AKA the FRS BRZ, the Honda fit second gen, the Subaru WRX
G D and the eighth gen civic SI, which just bumped out the Fiesta ST.
Yep.
All right.
You guys ready to have that conversation?
Good lobby.
Yeah.
Good lobby.
I like it.
We're going to take a quick break.
We'll come back and we'll order these bad boys rank them.
It's the snack intermission brought to you by Viper industrial.
Today we have something of substance because our boy Chris said he's actually
hungry today.
We have Bobo's PB and J grape.
You know how you have like those friends who like you've just done like really
crazy, like illicit stuff with like, you know, donkey shows in Mexico.
That's what, that's what Ron is to me, but in the snack world in the food game.
In the food game, like we have eaten some very questionable things.
I've seen this man make combinations that would make a non-blush.
The look of this is like a solid two out of 10.
It's dense.
It's dense.
It's dense.
So, yeah, I will say this though.
It's one of those snacks that the more you chew, the better it gets.
I wish it went harder on the J than the PB.
You want more filling.
Yeah.
You want like a little bit more in it.
Absolutely.
No, not bad though.
Hit it with a score.
You start out of 10.
Not a 10, it's a seven.
Seven?
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm going to hit it with like a five.
Yeah.
I'm there on a five too.
Man, now that I like read the family story, I want to give them like at least a 6.5.
I'll bump it up to a 5.5.
Yeah, okay.
It's a cliff, it's a cliff bar for eight year olds.
I actually like, I haven't eaten today.
So like it's good from a substance side.
It just doesn't, it just, it doesn't really check the snack part.
Sure.
Yeah.
So.
Well, since you enjoyed it so much, you get the extra one.
You can save that for later.
Anyway, back to the show.
All right, the time has come.
We got to rank them.
So first up is something's got to die.
We got six things on the list and there can only be five.
So what is your, what, I'm going to start this.
You start first.
What would you kill?
Okay.
Might be controversial.
Yep.
I will kill off the twins off of this list.
I don't see a reason for them to be on.
If you have access to the 330 I and the C five only because the first gen, the
limitations on the first gen, if this was the second gen, like I, it would beat
out the E 46 to me, but as we sit right now, I think you would have a lot more
fun.
You would have like an equally cool, if not cooler looking car in the E 46 and
a C five's not leaving.
So like, why have that much of the kind of the same thing?
You know,
what would you kill?
You get to kill anything on the list.
Probably kill the WRX.
You'd kill the WRX.
Okay.
Why?
Complexity.
Once again, you know, yeah, just because if we're talking about track day things,
right, you track a WRX because you love WRX is, you know, you don't necessarily
get a WRX because you really want to track.
That's fair.
I'd probably, I'd kill the SI.
Because, and having, I mean, I've driven the fit, but I haven't, and I, I have
driven the SI too, because I probably was on the press launch, but I don't
either of them really stand out to me.
I might not have had like a full track day with either of them.
Um, but from you explaining the two, if I had to pick between the two, I would
go fit and I just feel like killing off an all wheel drive car on a track.
I don't know.
I just feel like, like they're too similar.
Um, like, I, like you would never own either.
Do you understand?
If you're looking at this list and you're saying one of these cars might speak to
me, I would say that the E 46 and the C five are completely different cars.
Right.
It's a real drive sedan.
Even if it's a two door, it's a sedan in base versus a proper sports car
format, transaxle, um, the, you know, the, I guess you would say the BRZ sort of
also like sports car, but like way smaller, definitely more of a momentum car.
It's pretty much a roadster with a roof.
Yeah.
Right.
Lives into, you know, smaller footprint.
Um, again, I like all wheel drive cars that Subaru does that for me to me.
The two that feel like they're in competition is like the fit to me seems
like a lighter, more chuckable version of the SI, but you could correct me
because you have way more experience than them.
If you were, if you were presented with the two as like a track day car, um, the
novelty of the fit, um, and the practicality, like if you spread sheeted it,
there's no way you'd choose the fit over the SI, right?
Factory LSD, you know, uh, K K motor, one of the, one of the best motors of our
era, huge aftermarket, huge aftermarket, you know, I don't know if I'd say best
one of the air, but, but keep going.
Oh, one of the most popular motors of that is true.
That is true.
That is so a good version of that, you know, that motor, right?
So, um, you know, and, and intended to be a sporty version of the economy car that
it's based on arguably is a performance, right?
There is a fit sport, but that's just a lip and a spoiler, right?
So it's like, yeah, there's, there's nothing, uh, now, like a driving experience
wise, the, the fit I enjoy more because it's feels like an EF to me, right?
Um, so that's a tough, that's a tough thing, right?
And that's what I think attracts me to it, because to me, before we were talking
about like, you know, the spiritual successor, the fit to me feels closest to
the Mark two golf 16 valve that you wouldn't let me put on the list.
So like I would protect the fit in that fight because I think that's what,
that's the experience.
If I want to take a front wheel drive car out on track, I want to go enjoy it
being really lightweight and chuckable.
I'm not trying to do see five things in it.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like I think at a certain point, like people try to push front wheel drive
cars too far, it's like just get a different civic is still lightweight and
chuckable.
Yeah.
I would say the fit has to stay because it is the most truly budget out of all
of this one truly budget.
Yeah.
And I think it has running it in the long term.
I also think it has way more of a, um, of a future.
I think that there's this world where like, you go back and listen to this
podcast five years from now, and a bunch of these cars don't appear on the list
anymore, but the fit kind of still does, the fit might stay because I think other
things may work or also there's no new cars that are great.
So it's probably just BRC and it's just a list.
It's the same.
If you're thinking about that, I would say that like the civic, the civic would,
would remain on that list because the fit doesn't exist anymore, right?
It only made it three gens and now it's done.
Now it's an HRV.
Yeah.
All right, so we, we got to kill something.
So all three of us have said something different.
So you said, kill the twins.
I still think it's the twins and you said, kill the GD.
I said, kill the SI.
Yeah.
Does anyone feel closer to someone else's choice here?
We can get into vote.
I'll say one more thing about the twins is that I think you're capped on
progression very quickly because of that engine without having to do a swap,
without having to turbo it or do a swap or just spending a lot of money on it.
Yeah.
As far as front wheel drive cars, we have the, we have the fit and we've got the
SI.
Yeah.
Kind of both sides of the spectrum.
Yeah.
In my opinion.
I mean, they're so similar, honestly.
Okay.
So here, if you had to choose between.
If I had to kill the Subaru or kill the SI, what would you do?
I'd kill the, I'd kill the SI because the fit gets you a lot of the same type of
things, the Subaru, very regional of course, but the second it rains on
track, you're smoking everybody.
Right.
Um, usability anywhere where it does have a lot of winter time, way more usable.
Yeah.
Right.
It's a great daily, great daily.
By the way, I did do one lab of America and an STI and it's a, it's when it
rains, that you're the number one car out there.
Like having a, having a, uh, just for the, uh, representing diversity of preference
too, right?
That's all drivetrains if that remains, right?
So I do, I do think, I mean, I already made the argument of like Honda's
have this similar soul, right?
Like in regards to the way that they feel.
So you're still getting it one way or another, you're still getting it, right?
You know, so, um, and that's not an easy decision.
Like, I, well, it feels like a shame that like an SI doesn't make a list, right?
Yeah.
Like, okay.
So let's talk about heads.
So, or let, let's do, you do the two of us.
Would you kill the twins or would you kill the WRX?
That's a tough one too.
Like I, um, I think that the twins are going to be like very pervasive in the
culture for, for tracking, you know, like moving forward.
I think they're going to be a absolutely dominant chassis 10 years from now.
So like that's, and I don't disagree with that.
I just think in our current rule set with everything else presented, that's
where we are today.
The second that the most recent gen car becomes available sub 15 K forget it.
Okay.
So you would kill the, you wouldn't kill the twins.
No, I don't.
You'd actually kill the SI conversation.
Yeah.
In that conversation, I think I would.
I don't think so here.
So in that math, in that math between, this is kind of gets out of this math.
It makes perfect sense, but you want to kill the WRX, you want to kill the twins.
Yeah.
And I would probably argue to keep, I think I'd argue to keep the twins because
even though like, I mean, I just think that that, and it was on my list to
begin with as well.
Um, I think for the same reason as he does, it's the last of a generation of
little analog cars and they're still making them right now.
Like realize the gen two car, the parts are interchangeable.
So it's like you have a car that is still, you could still go buy new parts
for at a dealership and that may continue for another couple of years.
There's a cltc car running gen two motor, gen one chassis doing very well.
And I will say they do look really cool.
And again, like I guess I do have to agree that the twins will make you a
better driver than a GD would.
I killed the SI once when we did my list in the first place because the twins
and the twins and the fit went forward.
So true.
So in that conversation, no one saved the SI.
So I think we, so it now becomes, so we lose the SI, do you and I both agree
of all the cars to lose?
We lose the SI.
I mean, I've been arguing for the intention of the SI, right?
Like the reality is like I'm a Honda guy and I haven't, I haven't, it hasn't been
in my actual consideration for a very long time because, you know, my, my heart
kind of like stayed around, you know, the fourth gen, fifth gen, six gen era, you know,
so, so if we can't, we can't figure this out through, through this weird math I
tried to put together, um, cause this doesn't work in a traditional voting
cause it's the sixth place.
Um, let's look at this and say, what car is sixth place?
If we just did one out of six, what car is the bottom of the list from the group?
What would you, what would you put?
Well, like if you were to do a ranking of this current ranking, where would you,
what would be the last place for you?
Cause I mean, that's basically what the car you cut is.
I mean, same answer.
The twins, the twins.
Okay.
So twins is at the bottom for you at the bottom.
Yeah.
But again, like I've spent so much time with the WRX and I know how fun it is in any
other conditions, like outside of the track too.
I know that doesn't count towards this conversation, but this is why you need a
gridded notebook.
Yeah.
This is, this is C.
This is why you need.
A phone can't do this.
All right.
Still not drawing straight lines, but still.
So for me, I have the SI at the bottom and you have the, uh, you have the WRX at the bottom.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, let's just ask where do we think, let's just, let's look at the opposite of the SI.
Uh, or not the opposite, but the, the alternative, which is the fit.
How hot, where does the fit live on the list?
Like, where does it live for you?
Somewhere around the middle.
Cause it's not, it's not like an absolute must have, but I, I really like it.
That it's an entry for almost anybody into having a lot of fun on track.
Okay.
So let's just say, and I say the same, I think it's like position, it's like
position four, three, right?
Where does it live for you?
I mean, it's hard, right?
Because like I, in some, in some lists, I'd put the SI really high up at the top,
right?
But I don't think I'd put the fit at the top, you know, this is, this, this is
what I was trying to get you.
It's like, I want the fit on the list, but the fit's not number one.
No, I like, I'd put, I'd put the SI.
Like if I was between those two, it's like, you got to, you got to put one
of these two and number one, I'd put the SI in number one, you know, uh, just
because of the, the practicality of everything that I know about like what
tracking is like, right?
The, the, the fit like gets this, this like kind of fun hero.
It's like a, it's like an underdog here.
It's like, that shouldn't do that.
That shouldn't be like that.
That shouldn't be that much fun, right?
The SI is like, again, this is the same reason I, that's why I'm like, it's
the modern Miata, but it's like, I think that the Miata is a great car.
I think that the fits a great car, but I also think that they get more credit
than maybe do because they sort of are, they don't fit the traditional mold
of like a race car or a sports car to like the average automotive person.
You know, I guess also out of everything on this list, it is the one thing
that isn't intended to be a performance car.
No.
No.
I mean, that is very true.
Yeah.
Can, can put camber in the rear.
Whoa.
That's crazy.
Wow.
Solid beam.
Wait, really?
Yeah.
Like, yeah, I mean, that's like a, that's like a Mark two 16.
Yeah.
It's like a old trailing, I mean, you, you can, but it's difficult, right?
It's not like you can get a kit for it.
Pressure's on.
I know.
Are we about to kill the fit?
I mean, that, that, it almost seems like the fit swapping with the SI as we talk
through it.
Yeah.
That at the end of the day, the fit is a really great novelty.
It deserves to have been in conversation as long as it put up a great fight.
It put up a great fight, but if you're really going at it and you're saying you
have money to go build one track car and you're not going to, but you put it that
way, it's different, it's different.
If you were going to go race in like the spec fit series, cause then there's a
reason to go, but if you're just going to your local track and you're about to
get smoked by GT three RS is going around, would you rather be in a fit or would
you rather be in the SI?
And I asked you, I don't have the experience.
No, you'd be in the SI.
Yeah.
Right.
So like you're coming, you're coming to the, you know, like in the, in the fit,
right?
The unique kind of need to be with your peers too.
You know, I'm like, that's what makes it really fun as well.
Right.
That's a great point.
You're not driving it in a spec series.
And maybe this is where that could all of a sudden be not fun, right?
This is a regular track day.
You're not going to have a bunch of other fits and you'll have any one of these.
Right.
And this is where like, I think the romantic idea of the fit starts to
fade when you show up to a track day and there are no other fits.
It's still a really great choice.
Yes.
Which is, it's, it's made it to the final round and it's a sub 10 K King.
It's still a really, really great choice.
But if you do, you have a problem putting it in last place and killing it.
Do you have a problem putting it in last place and killing it?
If the SI remains, I mean, I, I, my heart's breaking for, for, for both.
I know, you know, like if you were to choose between the fit and the twins on
the final list, would you keep the fit above the twins?
Oh, okay.
I think we're going to make it official.
Yeah.
The fit has been removed and struck from the list.
Again, very impressive fight for what it is.
It also went from you and I both were like, yeah, it's in third place, third or
fourth to no, it's out.
You put it, you never know what these things, but you have the conversation
and you got to think through the pieces.
It's super important to put it in context.
All right.
So we now have, we now have come down, we've knocked out the fit or in our top
five, what's in fifth place?
What is the thing that would have also gotten knocked out?
It seems like the twins was on your list.
WRX was on your list.
So I think now it's just a conversation of WRX or twin.
That's a really hard one.
Cause it depends on where you are, but I think for most of the country, you
would put the GD last.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you guys outvote me.
I would put the GD above the twins, but that's only, it pains me.
It pains me because I love the GDS.
I just think it's an all around more fun car.
It is.
It's more fun stoplight to stoplight.
It's more fun.
Like it, but again, the twins also really fun car.
They're both really good.
Again, like in the twins, if you start out in those and then you get money
or you get a better car, a bigger car, you're going to be more, I will say
one thing though, just from a track day side, it's way easier to get all your
shit in a GD to the track.
That's true.
You can fit a spare set of wheels in the back.
You can fit a lot.
You can have a trunk space for toolbox, jack, all of that.
There's very little room in there.
I think of, I think of the twins because they're like, they sit in this space
that's just below the totality of their potential.
You know, you're like, man, this is, this is good.
Not great because it's good.
Not great.
It's like getting, getting a little bit more of a ding than it deserves
because like what else checks the boxes that those cars bring to the table?
Nothing, nothing, like nothing, right?
So what else?
I mean, WRX kind of like sits in its own, in its own world.
And purely on the fact that you can do twice as many laps stress-free in the
twins versus the WRX, which we've done, I mean, we have beaten the hell out of
that car, but just the fact that they, that they made it, right?
That it, that it, that it got made, right?
The WRX like, uh, you know, as a, it exists, you know, like it had a very strong
case and it still does a car.
Yeah, it doesn't exist anymore.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, but, you know, like when it, uh, when it, you know, that was the hot
version, you know, of the Impreza, right?
The, the twins are just like, we're making this, you know, and, and I think
that should be commended and, and that's the same thing.
It's the reason why it made it onto the greatest driver's car list as well.
Yeah.
Be, uh, well, of a certain era because like, it's one of the only currently made cars
that gives you the experience.
It's one of the only really good analog sports cars that's affordable that you
can buy without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy an analog
911.
Yep.
So, okay.
Uh, all right.
But so we all feel good though.
The twins are in fourth.
Cool.
That pair of that too.
I got to think about where the other thing, the rest of the context, right?
So the rest of the context.
So you've got the C five, you have the E 46.
I'd put the C five in fourth.
Oh, that's going to be a fight.
I don't think the C five is number one, but I don't think it's, I don't think
it's number four.
It can't be four.
Oh, I can't be four.
Like think about the, think about the appeal, uh, you know, uh, two, right?
So like the C five is in consideration with us because we've driven it all, right?
Like we've experienced all that stuff and we're like, okay, you know, and we're
of a certain age, we're like, all right, I guess Corvettes, right?
Like think about the headspace that you would have been in 15 years ago, you know,
uh, and even 10 years ago, you know, and thinking about that car, would you consider
it, even though you, even though you knew what it was capable of?
Well, actually, no, 15 years ago, I would have because so even though I am wearing
a heartbeat of America right now, you're really, you actually are like a shout out
to heat wave for the lab, but, um, I was not a Corvette person.
I was a German car person and didn't really love courts.
I will say it.
When I was a little kid, I loved the Corvette, but I loved like the Stingray,
the original, like, but like, and I loved the Corvette so much younger.
My, my grandfather had one.
It really is one of the cars that got me into almost bought a C four when I was
young, but as I got older, I was very much on the track to like one by a nine
11, like that was the car for me.
Corvettes kind of fell into this weird world.
We all know all the memes and the jokes about Corvette guys.
And then I drove the C six and I drove the C six multiple times side by side
with nine 11s and I would, as a journalist, I would get out and be annoyed that I
had to say that the Corvette was a more fun drive, a better drive, or the number
one thing I used to say about it was, it was more track ready.
Like I would get into a nine 11 that all of a sudden pushed into a corner felt soft
where the Corvette didn't feel soft.
And like, and I'm talking C six cause I was a generation.
I was a journalist, but like C five's similar ask in a lot of ways.
We had a C five at Hoonigan that was like a yard car, like super fun.
And you look at it now in the world of drifting, there's a reason why it's
become the new go to car because it doesn't need an engine swap.
It doesn't really need much.
No, like it doesn't even really need to be lowered.
You do it because you have, like, because it makes it look nice with a little
more angle, but our yard car had nothing.
Yeah, it was a ripper and it was a ripper.
It took three gens of the Corvette to convince us.
Yeah, right.
Like three good gens, right?
You know, so like, and, and, and yes.
Now, so now we're looking back on the C five and being like, oh, shit,
I overlooked that for that many years.
Right.
Like, so, you know, um, so that's where I think like it belongs on the list,
but to like, to like go on the top, it like, it just doesn't,
here's the thing I would say, I think that we just start, we don't have to
get all the top, but I would say that the E 46 is above the C five.
Yes.
A hundred percent.
I just think that all around since day one, it's been cool since day one.
And then I was, my listener has known this.
I'm not a BMW guy.
I'm not just for whatever it is.
I just don't associate with the brand, but I can't ever deny that they're
just great driving.
Ultimate driving machine.
Like there's a reason they claim that like they're really good driving cars.
There's an amazing aftermarket for it.
There's so many people racing them every weekend that if you go out to the
track and you have a problem, there's probably someone in the paddock who can
help you get a setup straight or whatever, because people have a ton of experience.
Plus it's nice to drive to the track in.
Interior is great.
Yeah.
A bit more usable.
Yeah.
Four doors.
You could get the four door.
Yeah.
So, um, like to me, I would say that that edges out the C five.
The other one is, is that the consumables on the C five are a lot more expensive.
That is true.
Breaks, like clutch jobs, like every tires are not cheap.
Tires are not cheap.
You're running a big tire.
Yeah.
Um, and a lot of people, if you're getting into a budget race car, because
you have a long experience of racing cars, then you may be able to drive the C
five to its limit.
But if you're just getting into it, you're probably not going to have as much
fun to see five as you would an SI or something else.
Because like you probably, it's not accessible.
Well, you're not going to be able to drive it to like its mechanical limit with
the size tire it has and what it and I will say from everything I do know about
tracking Corvettes is even when you have them set up really well and a lot of
stuff in them, they still have a lot of trouble putting power down.
So you do have to pedal a lot versus E 46, like you're hammered out all the time.
So we're saying we all agree.
E 46 is above C five.
Yeah.
We don't know where it falls, but we at least know that right now it lives above that.
Do we think in any world, the twins live above either the C five or the E 46?
Definitely not above the E 46.
All right.
Okay.
Not above the C five to me.
So the only other car now is the Civic.
So it's all about where the Civic slots in to figure out this place.
So is the Civic better than the Corvette?
Yes.
This is good.
This is where the fight is.
Yeah, no, no, it can't.
I, I, I don't have, I don't have enough experience in the Civic per se, but I have
enough, I have more experience in a front wheel drive car on track.
Yeah.
Then I probably should, I've driven more of them.
I mean, that was always Vinnie's joke with Scottos really fast in production
front wheel drive cars.
It's like where I excel.
We drive like actual touring cars.
I'm like, I don't want to push that that hard for a little drive.
I'm a fucking drive this thing on the edge.
Um, but it's not a C five that, but that's just from the experience side.
On the argument, SI is probably an easier car to own, have more lap time out there.
The SI is the easiest car to own on the whole list, maybe the WRX, right?
Like, so, you know, like maybe the WRX, you're saying in terms of ownership,
I'm talking about like track service ability, I'm talking about all the whole
package, the whole package, right?
Because like, what's that?
I would say the twins and the SI are the two easiest cars on the group.
I mean, the SI, the twins are pretty easy.
The SI has a real backseat.
You can, oh yeah.
Okay.
That's, I'm talking about the totality.
You're talking the whole package.
I was talking about the like consumable side of it, the maintenance side of it,
like everything that goes in.
They're probably pretty, they're probably pretty similar.
You know, I think the SI, right?
If I'm, if I'm, you know, thinking about the like, I'm thinking about it from
the, the entry point, right?
Like I'm, I want to buy, I want to get a track car.
It's my car, you know, like what sacrifices am I making, right?
Like what, what, what am I balancing out, you know?
And again, practical, practical view, you know, I'm going to go ahead and say,
like, I'm going to move forward pretending that the SI is an RSX for me.
Okay.
Okay.
If it were, I would agree.
Yeah.
So if it was the RSX, because squint, squint, right?
Yeah.
Squint, squint your eyes, I'm putting my safety squints on.
Yeah.
Put, put, put Vaseline on the lenses.
That's right.
You know, one of the other factors is, is that like once you do start getting fast,
I didn't really think about this until now is like, if you do start getting fast and
you're fast in a vet, okay, that guy's fast.
If you're fast in a civic or an RSX, it's like, yo, this dude's a hero.
So like this guy's awesome.
That's a great conversation.
Cause if we right now went to the track and I haven't done a track day in a year
and a half, uh, of all of these cars, I would probably jump in the twins or the SI
to go out and turn laps just because it's been a bit.
Sure.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like probably work up, back up and want to get into the C five.
Probably the E 46 is the car I'd be most excited to really, to drive there.
But I think like that group, um, yeah.
So there is, that, that, that does make a good argument of, you know, if you are
more entry level or just mid-level or, or, or just old.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or like, um, yeah, just looking for like kind of a, a more of a balanced weekend,
you know, like a little bit, right?
Like, um,
cause in, in the C five, you will probably also smoke your set of tires in a track
day or two, whereas in the, in the pads and in the RSX SI, um, you're going to go
home and you'll be fine and then you just go do your next track day again.
But you do get to tell your friends that you race Corvettes, which is either
good or bad, depending on who you're going to care.
I think it's good.
I think it's good now, right?
Like, but like, I don't know, like coming from, you know, okay, so Corvettes
were them when I was tracking.
Let's flip the other way.
And I don't, I don't normally love to run right to the end, but like E 46 or, or
SI, like 46, so, so like, I think we all, I think we all, I think we all agree
that the 46 is number one, the 46 is the number one.
So we now have to just fill out the middle.
Wow.
We've built the sandwich.
We got to fill out the middle.
So right at E 46, um, by the way, I like broke every rule of media, which is
like, I gave away the end midway.
Right now you can just watch the fall off or no one cares about the middle.
But it wasn't, I climactic in a way, the Corvette fans are going to care
about where it falls.
Yeah.
So like we got that and the Honda fans, which is actually probably a big
part of the group here.
All right.
So we have, we have E 46 sitting there.
We had at the top, we have the, uh, was it the WRX is at the bottom, right?
And then we have the twins above the WRX.
And then it's, it's a race for second place, boys.
It's like competing against Sebastian Loeb.
You're never going to win with this.
Oh, cause it's top five, right?
Yes, the SI is in second.
So you think the SI is in second.
I'm, so that's clearly your vote.
I, I right now, where the Corvette lies right now for me, the Corvette is in
second, but I am, I, I'm not, um, against being convinced there's one more
factor, there's one more factor that I just thought of.
If the SI looked like a Volkswagen golf, it'd be in second place.
I just, the RSX SI on track, the community of people you're going to be hanging out
with, I would way rather be hanging out still, that is true with the Honda kids.
Because while the drift community in Corvettes has become cool, I don't know
if anybody else track community has caught up because you show up and in the
garage, the other Corvette guys are going to be dudes that take it super serious.
Right.
And we're like, I'm faster than everybody.
I got the most expensive tires.
I got this kit.
I got the supercharger, blah, blah, blah.
Damn, yours is stock.
Whereas you show up in a Honda and you're on cool wheels, nothing else matters.
Like, damn, that shit's danced out in good color.
It's a different, it's a different tribe, right?
So that's why I think that the C five goes further on the list because it hasn't,
the Corvettes have been in track days for forever, but that's a different track.
You know, I just, I was just going to say that.
I think the Corvette's biggest problem here is that it's the giant amongst
David's big time because, because it's not expensive, because you should be
having the conversation of, do you want a nine 11 or a C, you know, or a C six.
Right.
But because Corvettes didn't keep their resale value, you're not comparing
them to like cars.
So like it is the beast amongst all of these cars, which is like, we're the
only reason it's in this group is because it's affordable.
And I think at the end of the day, if we would have said entry level budget car,
we wouldn't have included in the group because it's like just outside of entry
level.
That's actually I think a lot more than just outside.
Yeah.
I mean, I've been thinking about this is like first time, you know, like I'm
getting a track car.
I don't have one.
I'm not getting another one.
You know, I'm not doing a budget one because I'm selling this other one.
It used to be in it.
I have a little expendable start to get a track car to start.
Let me run the contrary.
Let me run the contrary to that, but though real quick, there is something
to be said about the lifespan the Corvette could have for me, meaning you
can really grow in progress.
Oh, you could keep it forever.
You could drive that car for 15 years and keep getting more and more into it
and do more and more to it.
And when you could literally drive it to the point that you win time attack,
like it is a car, it is a chassis that you could build to the highest.
It is very complete.
Twin turbo, like LS seven swapping that thing, full aero package, full like,
you know, plywood aero package that bad boy.
And then it's, it's a killer.
So, but then at the end of the day, you're still hanging out with the
Corvette guys.
I mean, it is, it is, it is rear wheel drive, you know?
So, I mean, I think where did, where, where are the twins chilling right now?
Twins are in fourth.
So we've got right now, it's E 46 rear wheel drive at the top, potentially
civic SI front wheel drive in second, and then third place C five vet, fourth
place, the twins, rear wheel drive.
And then last place, all wheel drive WS here's, here's a weird thing for me,
right?
So like, I think that, um, this, the, if the civic goes second, then the
Corvette can go next and the twins can go after, but if the Corvette goes
above the civic, then like, I think the twins could like interchange with that
too, right?
Because if I think about E 46, um, you think the twins could interchange with
what?
I think that the C five.
Yeah.
Like, I think it could be E 46.
I cannot stand for that.
Absolutely.
I get your argument, but again, we go back to this, the bang for the buck.
Like, man, C five on tracks a good time.
And we're not, and we're not saying this is a great daily.
Well, we're not, these obviously aren't, you know, people who have a ton
of track day experience, but there's also, we're not saying this is completely
entry level either.
Cause I think if it was, we would steer everybody probably into a front
wheel drive to get up and go, get going.
Right.
So this is like, then, then it's just fit, fit, fit, fit.
Yeah.
Fit cup.
So I think we got our answer.
What was the answer?
Uh, E 46.
S I C five twins.
I'll accept that.
Of course you will.
You fought that.
Well, you still think C, you still think the SI should be number one.
I think there's interchangeability in like the order of the list.
Right.
So like you've got, you've got like some choices based off of your preference.
Depends on person.
Right.
So like, you're like, I can get a rear wheel drive German.
Did I mention to you?
This is entirely subjective by three edits.
You're one of them.
But I'm thinking for the people.
He's reading the comments right now.
Like, oh, I can't believe this dude.
But yeah, but like that's, I mean, that's been my position for the last 10 years
is to think about, I get to step away from this and go on the gravel.
You have to go meet your people.
Yeah.
So the last interchangeability that we'll bring up is, is there any world
where the twins is above the C five that do you think?
No, not if the civic is second.
I don't know what that is.
Like he won one.
Yeah.
He won one.
Yeah.
He's playing a leverage game.
No, it's, it's, it's just, it's just like kind of like order of, of like choice.
Right.
I'm thinking about like, I'm looking at it like kind of in pairs and then an
outlier, right?
Because like, if we look at that, it's like, you have two great choices at one
and two, right?
You know, and then you've got two great choices in, in three and four.
And then you have the WRX.
Damn.
Which is, which is a, I'm not taking any more of this slander.
I'm not saying it's not a good choice.
You give a man an inch, you give a man an SI in second place, which is actually an
RSX and he takes a mod.
Let's just, let's just cut to some beautiful time attacks done in GD.
Yes.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Let him remember how good that was in 2005.
The June hyper lemon is exactly what I'm going to list.
The fit is not.
Yeah.
You know what?
No one has on their wall is a photo of a fit.
Post here on their wall.
Maybe Scotty bands, bands, bands got only as a joke.
Okay.
So we're locking it in.
I'm good with it.
Here it is already from the bottom in fifth place.
We have the Subaru WRX GD in fourth place.
We have the twins, AKA the BRZ FRS combo in third place.
We have the heartbeat of America, the Corvette C five second place.
The eighth gen, eighth gen civic SI.
And in first place, the BMW E 46 330.
That's it.
That is the list.
It's strong.
Everyone's like somewhat happy with it.
I know you prefer like it just to be all Honda's, but I mean, like the fit, I think
the fit, like stayed on the list in the same way that it stays on the track and
the same way that it like, you know, that it like rose to that, everybody wants it
there, but at the end of the day, it's not supposed to be there.
It's never going to finish first.
Everybody wants it there, but it's not supposed to be there.
Right.
And it's cool because it's not supposed to be there, but, you know, like this is a
good squad.
Bunch of great honorable mentions.
If we missed anything, drop it in the comments.
We know you have opinions, throw your list in.
If you want to get involved in the list earlier, you know, and maybe have a
little bit more sway, join the Patreon.
We have a way bigger fight and arguing about that.
And also, if you want to listen to our goblin list, which is just like just
real degenerate where this was like one in the morning and I'm just being evil.
You don't recommend this to anybody, but it's the things we would, but I would.
Yeah.
Like this is the wood list.
Yeah.
So, and, uh, and I said it again, I'll say it 10 times more.
Chris, not only thank you for coming, but thanks for everything that you've done
with good life.
It is a huge, amazing part of the community.
You guys put on an awesome event and, uh, maybe one day I'll have enough time
to like actually race a car in it one day.
I'd love that.
I would love, I would love to race in GLTC too.
Dude, thank you.
Huge, huge for the culture.
I got to pitch you an idea too.
It involves old Volkswagen's, but we'll get that.
Here we go.
As it should.
Yeah.
Anyway, thank you very much.
Big thanks to all the partners and later.
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You will find them everywhere from King of the Hammers to Formula Drift.
You'll see everyone wearing heatwaves at your local track day event.
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So one more reason to choose heatwave visual to fix your face.
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About this episode
Budget track-day shopping gets turned into a full-on debate as hosts Ron Zaris and Chris Stewart (Gridlife co-founder) set strict rules for a sub-$15k, US-available, drive-to-the-track car with “reasonable” mods and a post-session “ice cream test.” They argue through lists heavy on Honda practicality and rear-wheel-drive fun, plus a few wildcard picks. The final top five lands on BMW E46 330i, Corvette C5, BRZ/FRS twins, Subaru WRX (GD), and the 8th-gen Civic Si—while the Honda Fit, Fiesta ST, and others get cut in the final rounds.
“$15K” budget constraint (mods within reason)
10 millimeter
1.6 turbo
16 valve engine
50 miles an hour
8,000 RPM
AccuSump
add-on
aftermarket support
All-wheel drive (AWD) and understeer
Acura Integra
Acura NSX
Acura RSX
Audi 200
BMW 3 Series
BMW Z3
Chevrolet Corvette
Ford Crown Victoria
Ford Fiesta
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang
Honda Civic
Honda CR-V
Honda CRX
Honda Fit EV
Honda Odyssey
Hyundai Elantra
Hyundai Veloster
Jaguar E-Type
Land Rover Discovery
Lexus IS
Lotus Elise
Mazda MX-5 / Miata
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac Solstice
Porsche 911
Porsche 944
Porsche Boxster
Porsche Cayman
Saturn Sky
Scion FR-S
Subaru BRZ
Subaru Impreza
Subaru WRX
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2
Toyota Supra
Volkswagen Golf
Original notes
Firing Order is BACK for its first outing in season 3 and this week we’ve got Chris Stewart, co-founder of GRIDLIFE and all-round track sensei RonCar, aka Ron Zaras, founder of AntiLag here to join Scotto in debating the Top Five Budget Track Day Cars! Don’t worry, as you’ve come to love and expect: there are tangents-a-plenty and while an objective ranking (clearly, not the work of “three idiots”) may eventually be reached, they take their sweet time battling it out on their way there. Meanwhile, Scotto… well, I think Scotto just wants to found a neo-vintage racing class? Grab your helmets and spare tires, we’re off to the track, baby!
Partners:
Vyper Industrial
FCP Euro
Heatwave Visual
Wera Tools
KW Suspension
Producer: Nick Rutter @nickrutterarts
Music: SlikSound
Patreon: https://patreon.com/u37266647
https://bio.site/321actionaction
00:00 Welcome & Introduction
00:26 Sponsors: Heat Wave Visual & Wera Tools
02:30 Meet Chris Stewart, co-founder of GridLife
11:12 Rules and Ice Cream Test
16:55 Chris’s List
33:55 Ron’s List
45:32 Two from Each List Advance
52:38 Sponsor: FCP Euro
54:51 Scotto’s List
01:16:10 Blindspots (from Patreon)
01:33:41 Final Six
01:34:17 Sponsor: Vyper Industrial Snack Cart
01:35:53 Number Six Gets Cut
01:49:5 Ranking the Top Five
02:08:37 Final Top Five List
Very Vehicular
321 Action Action
0:00
133:15