Viper Values - Why It’s The Coolest Dodge Ever Built

You are listening to the analog in grit podcast. I'm your host, Victor Troyer. Who do we have on today's Viper episode?

We've got Dylan here back. Happy to talk about vipers. All right. Steve Wright. Steve Wright, aka scuba Steve.

Yep. Instagram handle NY Captain Steve, number 87, number at analog grit.

Nice. You are the second person from New York to be on this podcast.

Who was the first? Can you guess who the first one was?

Paul. Yeah. Paul. He was Long Island. Where are you from in New York again?

My family is from Long Island. They're from Islip and Jefferson County area.

But most of the family lives in upstate New York now, Central New York. So I was born in a Suigo, which is on Lake Ontario.

Yeah. I feel like upstate, and correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of people don't really feel like they're New Yorkers, but they don't associate with that New York, the New York City New York.

Oftentimes, when I tell people where I'm from, I'll say I'm from upstate New York or I'm from Central New York.

Because if you tell people you're from New York, especially people that are international, they automatically assume that you're from the city.

Yeah. And oftentimes I feel like a lot of people that are from the city, if you're a New Yorker, you say you're from the city.

Here in California, if you say you're from the city, you're from the Bay Area, San Francisco. If you're East Coast, anywhere on the East Coast, you could be in Florida.

And you say, oh, you know, I'm from the city. People are going to think New York City.

That's quite controversial here on the West Coast when I tell people that, because they say, no, there's only one city.

And I say, no, you're right. There is only one city. NYC. And that's really controversial here on the West Coast where, if you say, the city.

Yeah.

People think San Francisco.

Right. I see. I didn't know that because the city, that's right, because the Golden State Warriors put the city on their jersey.

That's right. Okay.

And I mean, a lot of people say East Coast, right? When I meet people from the East Coast, they'll say, oh, I'm from the East Coast to kind of generalize it, right?

And they might be from, I don't know, let's say the Northeast, New England area or something like that.

People from New York will say I'm from New York. Like there's pride there.

But I sense that like they don't want to associate with the city if they're from upstate, you know, because technically upstate is anywhere above the Bronx.

According to New York City people, myself included, we consider anything above like Westchester County is upstate.

Right. You're going upstate.

And it's like, like 45 minutes away from the Bronx. Not even, maybe less.

So anyway, so we are going to talk vipers today. We have Mr. Steve here on the show who owns two vipers.

So we'll talk about that.

Main State Dylan back again. He might as well just be the co-host at this point.

Yeah. I mean, we used to have a co-host back in the day, you know, so maybe Dylan can, can have the same moniker.

Right.

My best.

So let's talk about marketplace. So what, what does analog and grit currently have for sale?

We have some new arrivals that are quite interesting. The first being a BMW clown shoe M coupe in a storero blue.

It's the S 52 engine, which is kind of like, I think they made that car in a S 54 a little bit more desirable,

but it's better than the 3.0 in the base clown shoe and another just highly sought after engine.

So that one's a really cool new arrival. It's bone stock.

And then yesterday we picked up a yellow alpha Romeo 4C.

Wow.

So that'll be a fun one. It's just a beauty to look at. You can't walk past it without rubber necking.

And so yeah, those are the two newest ones that we have. And yeah, I think that's about it for right now.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's two new cars in the shop clown shoe, probably one of the coolest cars.

I think you can buy today like vintage analog cars because that came right around the time of, you know, BMW turn of the century.

That was like peak BMW, right? Probably what is it a 2000 or 99?

Yeah, early 2000s. And I think the clown shoe is one of those cars that like even people who don't consider themselves quirky car lovers,

they like the clown shoe like something about it just does it for them. It's got big wide hips, wide tires.

It has a really cool just presence on the road.

Yeah, definitely.

Esterel blue too, you said?

Yeah.

That's probably the press car, the press release.

Exactly.

Yeah, I would agree the clown shoe falls on most car enthusiast top five for wagons for hatchback.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I had a M Roadster with S52. So S52 stopped in after 2000, then they put the S54 in it in 01 and 02.

So just like two year production run with the S54, but they made very little clown shoes in general.

They made them non M, right? There's like the 3.0 I think they call it.

Yeah, we saw a black one at Radwood.

But the cool thing with the M is like it has the concave wheels.

Obviously the S52 is a pretty reliable straight six, right?

Where the S54 gets a lot of heat for some issues that they're known for.

So obviously you get more power with the S54, so it's significantly more power.

But you know, if you want the reliability still in an M motor, I mean, it's the same engine as that E36 M3.

So you get it in a smaller, more like rigid package.

Yeah.

Because those cars are a lot stiffer than the Roadsters.

That's why they made them.

So for rigidity.

And I'm just looking up the stats as far as the rarity of the clown shoe M series in the US.

There's just over 2,800 that we're here in the US.

Yeah.

Total.

I consider that ultra rare.

2,870.

There you go.

What's your baseline number for cars under that are rare?

Remember you were saying something like that at Car Week?

Yeah, I mean really anything under 10,000 units in their whole production run is like what I would consider like ultra rare.

Yeah.

Anything under 2,000 is like it's just crazy rare.

Yeah.

Like get one now because you might not find one later rare.

Yeah.

Four seat.

That's a cool car.

I mean, I remember JP was actually on his podcast probably years ago now.

He owned one and he regretted selling his.

He's also a member here at Analog and Grit.

He had, I think, a white one.

And I feel like that car, there's a lot of like, I've heard some stories with some little issues, ignition stuff and things like that from previous owners.

But that's a car like when you sell it, you can easily regret that car because you may not find another car at that price point that has like those supercar attributes, right?

Like a carbon tub.

I mean, that car is probably so light and so like nimble when you take it around a corner.

Yeah, it's just like a little two liter or 1.8.

It's not a big engine at all.

Yeah, it's it's very much akin to like a Lotus, but it's I would say a little bit more bespoke and special.

Yeah.

And a tremendous value.

I mean, just in terms of enjoyment for the money, it's pretty high up there.

Okay.

And that's another rare car with 1033 Alfa Romeo four seats that came into the US.

Damn, look at look at Scuba Steve just fact checking everything right now.

Yeah.

I love it.

I love the stats.

They made 500 launch editions that came into the US and then they sold only 500 more after that.

And then there was 33 special edition stride stales.

So 1033 four seats that came into the US.

So yeah, another very rare car.

And I wonder how many are in yellow.

Right.

So are you able to tell us about where they're listed and like price point ish?

Not quite yet because we just took that car in literally yesterday and I wasn't here for it.

It's a rival.

But I would say it's going to be somewhere close to 50 K.

Okay.

And well worth it in my opinion.

Absolutely.

It's a beautiful car.

And I think that that will minimally hold its value.

Yeah.

I think they're not they're not bad.

Like as far as price point goes, it's just like people to buy a two-seater Alfa Romeo,

you know, it's not like the most popular brand, right?

So to buy a two-seater Alfa Romeo, that's like a weekend driver or even maybe let's say a

track car, you know, 60 grand, whatever, like that's going to still be money, right?

It's got to be it's a toy at that point.

Right.

So to have that kind of money for a toy because it's not going to be your daily.

No, no.

Even though it's a pretty modern car, it's still not going to be your daily.

I believe a lot of people say the seat, it's not the most comfortable seats are super thin,

right?

But good point, the Lotus of Alfa Romeo, that makes sense.

Totally.

That's a great line with that.

Especially when you when you walk up to the car and one of the first things that you see

about the 4C is a carbon fiber tub.

You see the carbon fiber on the windshield.

So no lack of carbon fiber.

So obviously weight saving was on the high list of their priorities and just a great car.

Yeah.

Events.

So we've talked about cartoberfest.

I believe still have a date, which is October 25th.

We talked about Radwood, which obviously is not analog and grit, but Radwood is going to

be at the San Pedro LA.

So that's going to be our local Radwood.

So we went to Radwood at car week in Monterey, Steve, and it was it was like kind of an event

with an event.

So it wasn't really Radwood.

Like there was a few people dressed up, but I feel like the actual Radwood events that

come to a city, people dress up in like bright colors and track suits.

And so I'm thinking about doing the whole the whole deal.

I'm going to try my best to as well.

And I'm also thinking about getting there like the day before, you know, because I think

it's a Saturday morning, right?

Or something like that.

So obviously you want to get there on time.

And then if you're displaying a vehicle, you want to get there on time and maybe even

wash it because I was thinking like if you go in the morning, like you're going to end

up with a whole bunch of bugs and it's going to it's not going to be cleaned up nice.

Right.

If you get there like literally after you just drove 200 miles or what is it like one?

It's not quite that bad.

It's like 90.

Yeah.

Probably like 90 to 110 miles.

Yeah.

Okay.

So like let's say 90 miles still car is going to be a little bit dirty.

So I was considering maybe getting a spot beforehand.

But I know a few people going actually so you myself and Christian is actually going.

He's been on this podcast.

Right on.

Yeah.

You won't have to twist my arm.

Too hard.

I think I'll be joining you as well.

Awesome.

And displaying the Viper.

It's a 90s car.

No, I should.

Oh wait.

Is it 90?

That one's a 2000.

Oh, but I think it doesn't matter if it's 80 through 99.

Well, technically, the Gen 2 Viper was made in 96 through 2002.

So the Gen 2 Viper is, I mean I'll just tell him it's a 99.

Yeah.

Right.

That works too.

So I wanted to talk about something real quick before we get into the Viper's again.

And this is something Jay Leno said on the Adam Corolla show.

I was listening to it yesterday and he's talked about like the price for events.

Like if you look back to Car Week and you looked at like the quail, right, it was like

you couldn't even get tickets, but $3,000 on the secondhand market.

And then like you looked at like Concorso Italiano was like 250, which, okay, 250, but like just

to enter.

If you want to display your vehicle, that's another, you know, whatever, a couple hundred

dollars.

So Radwood, $45, right, that's not bad to display your vehicle.

And it includes admission with a plus one.

So Jay was saying how he just didn't really care to go to Car Week this week because it's

gotten so bad with pricing.

Like he's saying it's become so bougie and, you know, Jay Leno, he's in denim and he's

not really the type of guy to kind of flaunt himself and be that, you know, ostentatious.

So what do you got?

Like, what do you think?

Like, do you feel like these events are starting to get a little out of hand pricing wise?

I mean, you went to your first Car Week.

Yeah.

I mean, I think they are becoming more prohibitive, but I think that there's kind of a reason

for that because I was watching videos from a couple of different YouTube guys who were

saying like, oh, it's turning into like just all these teenagers showing up with cameras

and, you know, blocking the streets and it's getting so busy and difficult just to like

enjoy it and drive around that like, I think they're just back in the day, I've heard that

it was more exclusive, less popular.

And I think like they kind of are trying to find the balance between like making it

something that, you know, a lot of people go to and making it something that like the

right people go to or the right people go to like in their mind.

Yeah.

For the right reasons.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

And supply and demand.

Yeah.

It's like they almost want to price people out.

Yes.

Right.

Which is a shame, though.

In my opinion, like car enthusiasts, you know, a lot of them are young and in order for them

to actually like, you know, dream and see these cars, obviously they're going to need

to buy tickets for these events.

But the thing about car week, though, is you really don't have to buy a ticket for an event,

right?

You can just sit on the side of the road and watch these cars, which is probably the best

way to see them anyway.

And that's my best recommendation is if you can't afford to go to the quail or even the,

you know, what the one that Jay Leno goes to is the Pebble Beach one, the Concorde

Elegance, like, and that's mostly pre-war stuff.

But like, regardless, you don't need to go to an event really to see those cars.

No, not at all.

All of the stuff we went to this year was like the big events in the town, like where

they had the Mercedes booth and the Cadillac booth, like you could have had a lot of fun

just parking and walking around there and not having to pay for anything, not even parking.

Yeah.

You know, so there are ways, there are budget friendly ways to enjoy car week for sure.

Yeah.

Definitely.

OK, so let's switch gears to the Dodge Viper.

So today's episode, we want to kind of just hone in on that particular model.

We have some car models here.

I had one in 1996 Dodge Viper GTS model that I remember begging my mom to buy because my

brother had the poster on the wall, right?

Like it was the hottest car at the time because the RT10 had already been out, right?

And I'm just reflecting back on my experience with the Viper.

And the RT10 was like cool, but it wasn't like it had no top.

Like it had the little zip up like windows.

And I remember Hulk Hogan had one in like red and yellow with the three spoke wheels.

And it was cool.

It was definitely like, wow, like what the hell is that?

That's like like super car muscle, you know, American muscle, but in a super car form.

And then when the GTS came out, blue with the white stripe, I remember thinking like,

damn, like that's that's the car I want when I grow up.

Like, you know, when you see like you have your first like car toy, you know,

and and you kind of dream about it.

And, you know, obviously I met someone who owned one and I appreciate it.

I remember the first day I actually met you, you were installing your spoiler.

And one was for sale on bring a trail and you were like, damn, how much is it?

And I go, I might, I might, I might actually bid.

And I was like, I like this guy.

He's a Viper guy.

He's looking for another one.

So I remember that if you remember, I put in a bit on that blue and white

stripe after you told me about it, I almost became an owner of a second gen

two Viper that day.

And yeah, they are.

They're just the really legendary cars, their icons.

Yeah.

So what made you buy yours?

Well, you have two of them.

So maybe you want to start with the GTS or yeah, I'll start even before that.

It's similar to your story where you begged your mom to buy a blue and white

stripe model.

I had the posters on my wall.

You know, when the RT 10 came out, I think everyone had it in red on a poster

on the wall later on.

You could get the posters in black for the RT 10.

I had all those posters.

I remember you could get the posters at the Scholastic Book Fair at school, right?

So, you know, during that, you'd get the calendar with the cars in it.

You'd get the book.

You know, that was when I stocked up because it was a very different time.

We didn't have the internet.

We didn't have cell phones.

You got your pictures of cars from magazines.

So that was often what I would do as a kid because I'm a lifelong

enthusiast for cars.

So go into the grocery store, immediately go to the magazine aisle

and check out DuPont registry, right?

So that's when I first started checking out valleys of cars.

So when I first fell in love with the RT 10, I remember it and it's a really

good story.

It's actually maybe a little bit traumatic for me as well, because you'll

see it towards the end.

I was on vacation with my family and we were in North Carolina and it was the

first time I saw a Viper in person and it was a black RT 10 and it was on the

street and I remember, I remember I saw it from a block away and immediately

knew there's a Viper.

So I'm beligning it towards that Viper.

Get over there and I probably stood there for, you know, three, four minutes

and my family says, what's wrong with this kid?

You know, as I'm just standing there, I'm just in awe of this black, brand

new RT 10.

A guy comes by smoking a cigarette, leans over it and ashes in the convertible.

And I mean, it's just one of those memories that you'll never forget.

You know, he put his cigarette ashes out in the car.

He flicked his ash into the Viper.

Oh, wow.

And it just, it was burned into my brain.

And it's just, it's just one of those things where there's always going

to be people that are either envious or people that see something like a Viper.

And it, it's one of those cars that hate it or love it.

It evokes emotion.

I agree.

So that was the first time I saw an RT 10, the first time I saw a Viper.

And then it was just a few years later that the blue and white striped

GTS came out.

And I remember the first time I saw one of those as well.

And you're just chasing it down, trying to get it to stop at a gas station

or whatever so that you could take a photo with maybe a disposable camera.

Or, you know, we didn't have big cameras back then.

You know, this is late nineties.

So the blue and white stripe was amazing.

And then what really stuck for me was in 99, the silver GTS came out.

And in my hometown of a Suigo, New York, somebody bought a silver GTS.

So I was often able to see that car, you know, once a month.

It was like a treat where it was just like even on weekends, it was like my

friends would say, oh, you know, let's go look for the Viper.

We knew where he hung out.

We knew where he lived.

You know, so we were we were literally stalking this guy just to get to see his GTS.

You know, so it's been a lifelong goal of mine to have a gen two Viper, to have

a Viper in general.

And it's actually it's been it's been a really good motivation in my life

where, you know, I can think back, you know, 20 years ago, and why did I make

this decision? You know, why did I work hard?

And honestly, at the root of it, the Viper was always there.

And if you ask anyone in my family, like I was obsessed with Viper's from a

very young age.

And, you know, I was lucky enough to find a career at a young age that I still

love today that I was able to do well with.

And it was it was about 18 months ago that I bought my first Viper.

Because of the current market prices, I had had my eyes on gen threes.

Gen threes, it's a lot of car, 500 horsepower from factory without doing

anything to it. And it's it's a lot of bang for the buck.

So when you see the prices, what they're going for, I mean, you just saw one

sell this week on cars and bids for, I believe, $33,000 for a silver gen

three Viper. I was not that lucky.

I did not pay in the thirties.

I did not pay in the forties.

I paid more than that.

But it's a it's a great car.

I ended up getting Mamba with the bright red interior.

So I have number 11 of 200 Mamba's 2004 SRT 10 Mamba.

So that was my first Viper.

What makes it a Mamba?

With the Mamba, you have the interior package.

So you have red interior, you also have red stitching on the seats.

And you have a lot more red.

And that that kind of goes really well with the brake calipers.

So just an interior package.

You did not know no other performance in 2004 and 2005 for the gen

three Vipers, you know, there was they had a launch edition.

They had a Mamba that they made 200 of.

They had a Copperhead edition that they made 300 of.

So throughout throughout Viper, they've always had, you know,

and then towards the end of like gen three, you know, and gen four,

they had final editions same with gen two.

They had the final edition in 2002.

And then with after, you know, gen two and gen four and gen five,

you had ACRs available.

So that's all this things to make a rarer car.

Right. Even rare, even more rare.

And that's that's it was actually when I was buying my first Viper,

I saw a Mamba when I was doing a lot of research and I was seeking out a gen three.

I only I was specifically going for Mambas.

One, they hold their value a little bit better.

And two, I really dug the red interior.

It's a really sharp looking car.

Yeah, and that's been a dream tone for the last 18 months.

But if you look at some of the other interviews I did after I bought that car,

specifically like with builds and banter, I was still talking about the gen two

when I owned the gen three.

I said, you know, I still want a gen two.

And when the opportunity came to buy a gen two, I bought one site unseen.

You know, there's pros and cons to that.

You know, I'm sure anybody that's bought a car site unseen,

I mean, you're going to you're going to run into certain issues.

But overall, the gen two has been an absolute dream to own.

And it really is.

It's one of the situations where people say, don't meet your heroes.

I disagree.

The gen two Viper has I knew what I I knew what it was going into it.

I knew it didn't have the bells and whistles.

If you want something that it isn't, then.

Yeah, it's not the car for you.

It's it's a driver's car.

So it's it's not the most comfortable car, especially on long trips.

And it gets hot.

But if you really love that car, then you're willing to put up with that.

I think it's it's it's all kind of things that, you know, make the Viper what it is.

It's it's a very unique car.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I would like to share.

So Steve here popped my Viper Cherry.

It's my first time driving one.

And I'll have to admit, it's one of those cars where if you go into it

with expectations of having like a grand touring car, it's not really that

because it's not very ergonomic.

The weirdest thing for me when I drove it was there was no dead pedal.

I'm used to going clutch to dead pedal anytime I shift in a manual car.

I was having to get used to put my putting my foot flat on the floor.

Not a bad thing.

Just one of those things that's like a little bit different.

And Steve noted how the seats are slightly canted outwards and how tight

the pedal box is.

And those are things that somebody like Ritzy, who doesn't really want

like a pure drivers car, might complain about if they got into one

and were expecting more out of it.

But just the gearing in it, the power on deck, like below 2000 RPMs,

it just wants to rip the tires off.

And that kind of stuff, that visceral excitement that it gives you

when you stomp on the pedal is like that's the appeal of the Viper, I think.

Or at least, you know, for me, because again, going into it,

I wasn't expecting a GT car that you'd want to hop in and drive across the country.

And I was expecting a raw sports car and it was that.

Yeah. Yeah.

So that when you mentioned the low end torque, it is really nice

and the power is very linear.

So you can be at a really low RPM and it makes it easy to drive in traffic.

It makes it easy to, you know, drive in the city.

And I try to daily drive it.

The gen three you have was first, the GTS came second, right?

You have a gray with a red pinstripe.

Is that a factory color spec?

The steel gray is a year specific color code and that's a 2000.

So the steel gray is OEM, but the red stripes are not OEM.

If you ordered a steel gray Viper in 2000, you had one color choice for your stripes.

And that was silver.

Oh, OK. Interesting.

Yeah. OK. I was going to assume white. Cool.

So gen three, gen two, right?

So you have a 2000 GTS and then your gen three is what year?

That's a 2004. Oh, four.

So by then what's changed?

I know the body style changed, but it looks like a lot of them are convertibles, right?

The gen three.

So gen three was only made only convertible convertible.

So what else like powertrain wise?

I'm sure horsepower went up.

So with the gen one, they had 400 horsepower.

With the gen two, they increased the 450 horsepower.

Gen three went up to the 500 horsepower.

Oh, wow. OK.

So by 50, pretty much in increments, it increased the displacement as well.

The gen one and two were eight liter engines.

The gen three was a eight point three.

And then gen four and five went up to the eight point four liter.

OK. So another fun fact about Viper.

It's the largest engine ever produced put into a car. Right.

And it's all 10 cylinders, right? They're all 10 cylinders.

They are all 10 cylinders and they all came with a six speed manual.

The gen one and gen two were Tremac 56.

And then the gen three stayed with the Tremac 56.

Gen four and five went up to Tremac 6060.

OK. So they changed the chassis after gen two.

It's a stiffer chassis. It's a wider chassis.

The gen three and gen four are slightly bigger cars than the gen two.

And you really only notice that after you've been driving them for a while.

You do have a little bit more room in the gen three and gen four.

And it's it's interesting.

You mentioned the dead pedal, the gen three and gen four and gen fives.

They do have a dead pedal.

It is still a very tight pedal box, but you do have that small dead puddle.

And I do like it in the gen twos.

I think there is enough room that I am going to modify it.

And I will be adding a dead.

It will be a low, it will be a much low, lower profile one.

And it's it's I don't think of it as a luxury or a comfort kind of a thing.

For me, a dead pedal is a place where I can put my foot to reposition my body

in a seat when I'm, you know, after I go into a turn at 100 miles an hour.

It's it's a good place to know where your feet are.

So that's why I'll be adding the dead pedal.

I recently added new seats to the gen two Viper.

That was one of the things with the gen two.

I want gen one and gen two vipers, the leather seats.

You slid around in them quite a bit.

So you'd end up pinned against the door if you're going into a turn at 100

miles an hour.

So I actually took the Mamba seats out of a gen three Viper.

And I put them into the gen two Viper because my Viper has a lot of red

accents on it with the red calipers, the red stripes.

I went with the Mamba seats because they have the red accents and they have

Alicaterra centers, so in much bigger bolsters than a gen one and gen two.

So it's almost like putting bucket seats into your car.

It's been a huge improvement.

And it's probably one of my favorite modifications that I've made to the car.

That's cool.

I feel like you you drive it like you're you don't just it's not just a trailer

queen, you know, and I respect that, right?

You you track it, right?

When I bought the gen three, I wanted a collector numbered Viper.

You know, after owning that, I wanted a car that I could really drive,

that I could take to the track.

And that's why I specifically bought that gen two and I bought it.

So I don't seem and I bought one that was a driver's car that had been driven.

I didn't want one that had perfect paint.

I didn't want one that had delivery miles.

That wasn't my intention.

I knew from get go that my intention was going to be to modify it.

I knew that I wanted to increase the size of the brakes.

I knew I wanted aftermarket wheels so I could put better tires on it.

There was a lot of things that I had planned on doing with the car prior to me buying it.

It's been a really fun project.

And we're coming up on actually just one year of gen two Dodge Viper ownership.

Nice. Yeah, coming up on one year.

And I've really executed the plan of building it into a track car.

We have the 14 inch drilled and slotted rotors now.

Has six piston brumbo brakes front and back.

Two piece forged wheels with Toyo R888R tires.

So after now with putting in the new seats and a six point race harness,

she really is going to be track ready.

And just getting back from Laguna Seca grid life a week ago.

I've now got your sights set on it.

I was inspired after leaving grid life and I jumped online

and I found a company speed SF that rented out the track Laguna Seca.

So I will be heading back up north later this month.

And it'll be my first time in Laguna Seca.

So I'm really doing my homework right now, spending.

Doing hundreds of laps in Gran Turismo on Laguna Seca,

really learning the break points and really doing all the homework

that I can to learn the track before I arrive with the Viper.

So that when I show up, I can focus on driving and getting instruction

because it will be a camp and I'm really excited.

It's in Laguna Seca. I mean, it's it's an icon.

It's a legend of a track. I mean, world famous.

So it's a bucket list for me to bring the Viper there.

So really excited about that coming up.

That's awesome, man. Yeah.

I mean, for you to like want to track it, right?

Like, obviously you you're driving the car as it's designed to be driven.

That car is it's like even a Corvette.

And I know a Corvette is on the same conversation as a Viper,

but that car is is like an entry level track car.

Like that's why people buy it.

And it's attainable.

The Viper is obviously another level above that, right?

It always was like priced above the Corvette, I imagine, right?

Maybe not the ZR1 or the Z06 and the Special Editions.

But like, you know, the Viper is is a muscle car for the track.

And I think that's what's so special about it.

It's not a GT car, right?

It never was meant to be a GT car.

And that's what I love about it.

It's like you said, it's a it looks visceral just by staring at it.

The Viper had a very clear cut plan.

The Gen 2, they wanted to build a track car.

They wanted to track weapon.

They they never put, you know, the nice interior.

They've they've always been really bare, minimalist, minimalist.

Yeah, track focused cars.

All the way up through all the generations,

even going into the Gen 5, they are still track focused track weapons

with still not the nicest interior.

Yeah, I wonder why they just went convertible only in the third gen.

Like because you would think if it's a track car now,

convertibles aren't usually the most, you know, rigid, stiff cars.

So I think that goes back to the ethos of Viper in general.

And RT 10 with the RT 10 and what they were set out to do.

And they wanted to make a modern day Cobra.

Right. That's right. They wanted a modern day Shelby Cobra.

So that's where the convertible came from.

And that's why when you see the concepts, I mean, they are very similar to a Shelby Cobra.

You have that raw visceral feel, big hood, two seater.

And it was convertible.

So I think when they when they brought the Gen three back,

that was, you know, a playback to their roots.

That makes sense.

And then they did the same thing with the Gen two.

So they, you know, they introduced the hard top coupe later on.

They did that with the Gen four.

They brought the they brought the hard top coupe back.

One thing I would like to ask you, Steve, is what do you think

about people who have this idea that like the Viper is terrifying?

Because I think that's something that a lot of people,

they have this idea in their head that they're going to get in the Viper

and give it 25 percent throttle and they're just going to do a doughnut.

That's a that's a good question.

Like it's a widowmaker, right?

People say exactly.

I think, see, it really depends on the driver, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I don't think we can blame the car for anything.

We know what the car is.

It's a very raw, no traction control V10 rear wheel drive car.

If you respect it, it can be a lot of fun.

And it's like a motorcycle, the same with a motorcycle.

It gives you everything you need to unalive yourself, right?

But if you have control, you can have a lot of fun.

You can go really fast.

You can do amazing things with a motorcycle.

The Viper is the same way.

It gives you all the power that you want.

You can break those tires free and second, third gear.

If you respect it, you can do a lot of amazing things with that car.

And it really handles well.

If you don't respect that car, sure.

I think the numbers don't lie.

There was a lot of Vipers wrecked.

There still is a lot of Vipers wrecked today.

There's a lot of contributing factors to that.

The original tires on the Gen 1 and Gen 2 are not the technology

that we have today.

We have much better composition of the tires today.

A lot of times when you hear about Vipers being wrecked currently,

one of the first things a Viper owner asks is what kind of tires?

How old were those tires?

That is the first thing you're going to hear a Viper owner say,

is how old were those tires?

The next kind of situations are too.

I avoid the rain.

The snakes do not like water.

In real life.

In real life and in the auto life.

I mean, even they don't even like being washed.

Yeah.

They are not watertight cars.

That's funny.

You will get water in every nook and cranny of that car.

They don't like being wet.

I have the R888Rs on the GTS.

So those are not tires you use in slick conditions.

So as long as you're respectful of the Viper,

I have not had any issues.

Like I said, one year of Gen 2 Viper ownership.

And anytime I've broken those tires free,

it's pretty much been intentional.

And you know, if you're going above a certain RPM

and a certain gear and you dump that clutch,

you know what I mean?

You're going to break those tires free,

which for me, that's what makes it fun.

Yeah, yeah.

One thing I would like to note just from my driving experience

in the Viper is like, it didn't feel like it was going to,

I didn't feel like I was going to get myself in trouble.

However, I was shocked by how light the pedal,

the gas pedal was.

They probably took it out of like a Dodge Caravan

or like a Dodge Neon or something.

So I could see how if you got a little bit pedal happy

coming out of a turn, you could get yourself in trouble.

But if you're mindful of that, then you know,

if you're just a sensible driver,

then I think you'll be all right.

Yeah, and that may be very accurate.

Viper's were a parts bin car.

They always had a very limited budget

for research and development.

So Dodge did take, for instance, the door handles

from a Dodge minivan.

The interior door handles are from a minivan.

So I would not be surprised if the pedals were as well.

Yeah, I want to talk about values.

So we, I watched the Doug DeMiro video a couple of weeks ago.

Might have been, you know, give or take a week or two.

And then I shared it with you guys before we went on air.

And same like last week with Mercedes, right?

Different video though.

Now he's talking about Viper's not going up in value.

And he's always said Viper's are gonna go up in value.

He's owned one.

And I remember, you know, thinking like, yeah,

hell yeah, like that car is way undervalued.

I wanted to buy one.

Like, GTS's were always more expensive

in the last five years in RT10.

So I was looking at RT10, like around 30 grand, right?

I'm like 30 grand for a car that I admired as a kid.

That's not bad.

Like, like I would think that car by now would be over 100.

But it's not, still roughly around 30, 35,000.

For a nice RT10, usually, you know, with no roof

and it'll burn your leg, right?

If you are not careful when you open the door.

But he's saying that he thinks the GTS, you're the gen two,

it has gone up, right?

Since he's owned his to like 70,000 or about

is what you're getting for good clean ones.

But that's it, they've reached their limit.

So I wanted to get your thoughts on that

because obviously, you know, it's gone up like, what?

Double in value in the last nine years, 10 years.

So they were getting RT10 values back then.

Now they're getting like around 70.

So who's to say it's not gonna be at 140

in another nine years?

There will always be an ebb and flow for car prices.

The gen two with miles where you're driving it,

I think will always be a sub $100,000 car.

When you talk about delivery miles

or you talk about more rare vipers like an ACR,

you see those selling in the six figures now.

I think that those will continue to increase

and especially if they have delivery miles,

those cars are always going to hold a much higher value.

But that's what I like about the Viper.

It was never an expensive car when it came out.

And it's still an affordable car

and you get a lot of bang for your buck.

So that's one of the things I really,

I find really endearing about the Viper.

Sure, owning one you say, yeah,

it'd be great if the value of the Viper goes up.

But on the same hand,

I love that the value is not going up

because this is not my going to be my only gen two purchase.

I plan on picking up another gen two Viper.

Oh really?

Well, yeah, I mean, that day you didn't put a bit in

on bring a trailer, right?

For that other one.

So like you are still looking for one

because this is like your track one, right?

So I imagine if you get another one,

it would probably be more like your car you drive

for daily use or at least not for track use.

Like a weekend car maybe?

I think if I pick up another GTS,

well, let me rephrase that.

When I pick up another GTS,

it will be a more of a collector Viper.

It will be a weekend car.

It will be one that I don't take to the track.

But yeah, why not an RT 10 then?

To kind of have all three?

Well, that's on the list too.

Okay.

I mean, ideally I don't all five generations Viper.

I have put in offers on gen one Viper's.

I think they're a really cool car,

but they're also, they're a toy.

They're not something that you can drive on a daily basis.

They don't have a roof.

They have no exterior door handles.

You can't lock that car.

So you have to be careful you bring that car.

You need to keep your eyes on it.

But I think it's a really, for the price, once again,

a lot of bang for the buck.

So if you watch the market as closely as I do,

there's deals that happen.

So when I know just yesterday bought a red RT 10

driving for $10,000, $9,500.

He bought an RT 10 yesterday.

He sold it the same day.

Unbelievable.

So there are deals to be had.

Oftentimes they are back channel.

They're not on the market.

There's a huge community.

There is a lot of Viper enthusiasts that watch the market.

And once in a while, cheap Viper's do come around.

You can pick up, as you said,

they're readily available on the market in the 30s,

but you can pick up a gen one RT 10 in the 20s.

You know what, you're gonna sacrifice

some of the quality of the car there.

There's a lot of parts on the Viper to gen one,

gen two, or plastic components.

And 20 years later now,

those parts are cracking and breaking, like anything.

So a lot of parts have to be replaced on these cars.

Luckily, there's such a big fan base for these cars.

There's a lot of new companies and a lot of owners of Viper's

that we're trying to reproduce these parts now.

We have people that are reproducing the lenses

for the headlights, which we'd gotten prices up

to almost $4,000 per headlight for a gen two.

For a clean, unused one, you're talking over $5,000

for a headlight.

And can you give us a tidbit about the headlights

that you shared with me a while back?

So the research and development for these headlights

was actually done by General Electric

because they had been commissioned by BMW.

And originally these headlights were intended

for the BMW Z1.

BMW, after General Electric did the research

and development and developed these headlights

and brought them to BMW, BMW passed on them.

Dodge Viper saw that as an opportunity

and being that it was a very low budget car

that they wanted, it was in back room, low budget project.

They took those headlights and got them free.

No research and development.

So that kept the cost to develop the Viper lower.

And then there's an even more interesting fact

about with the headlights.

There is a liquid leveling device that is installed there

so that you can level the headlight at factory.

Now, Dodge could have removed that.

It would have cost $1.50 to remove that liquid leveling

from the headlight.

To save cost, they decided not to.

So that is why the Viper is probably,

as far as I'm aware,

the only car that truly has blinker fluid.

Yep.

Oh, wow, blinker fluid, you have to refill.

You do not have to refill it.

So that's one thing if you're going to buy a used Viper

and you're checking out the headlights,

that's a significant difference in value of that headlight,

whether it holds its liquid inside of that liquid level.

And honestly, I've never seen one that was broken.

And so, but if you had damage,

I could imagine if you had a little damage to that headlight,

it wouldn't take much to break that liquid vial

inside of there.

Oh, wow.

So when people are asking,

oh, is the timing belt been changed

or did you do the IMS bearing,

Viper owners are like, did you get the blinker fluid?

The one thing that has blinker fluid.

A lot of people bring up with the Gen 2 Viper

is the water pulley.

They are plastic from factory.

So that's its Achilles heel.

Yeah, you want to replace that with billet.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Every car has something like that, literally.

Like every car has something that in the threads

everyone knows and needs to have replaced.

The thing is with a car like the Viper,

it's old enough that like the problems are known, right?

And of course they have enough enthusiast following

that like people find solutions

even when there's not just a simple replacement

or bolt-on or easy upgrade.

So I think that's another thing that makes

the Viper appealing is even though it's like

a low production car, there's a huge community

surrounding them.

Yeah, there is.

And I think that's something you can attest to, right?

I mean, people, you've met a lot of people in California

through the Viper community and been a part of it

for a while now, right?

In Southern California at one point,

we had the largest Viper owner association membership

here in Southern California.

I've been a member of the Viper owner association

prior to me owning a Viper.

I wanted to be part of it so that I could

beginning that inside information

and so that I could be learning about these cars.

So I've been a VOA member for quite a few years now.

And it is, it's a great community.

We're actually meeting up this Sunday

and we're all going to a cars and coffee in Irvine.

We're going to a ladies-organized cars and coffee

at a museum.

Yeah, so it's a great community.

They've really taken me under their wing

and really helped me get the car set up, one for the track

because a lot of Viper owners are real drivers

and a lot of the guys in the VOA are owned multiple Viper's

and they take them to the tracks.

A lot of them that I know own competition coupes,

gen three and four competition coupes.

So really, tube chassis, track focused,

not street legal Viper's.

So they've been a huge wealth of knowledge

and yeah, the Viper community is amazing.

And it's one of those clubs that has been around

since the car was made, had a car club

and it will continue to have a really big car club

moving into the future.

And now it's interesting seeing,

I've known a lot of the guys in the VOA

that bought their Viper's from factory

and they've been members of the club for 30 plus years.

But now there's a new generation coming in.

There's the guys that are my age in their 30s,

in their 40s that are buying the Viper's.

And it's been really cool to see that

and make new friends.

And it is, it's a great community.

Yeah, I was just thinking about values in my head

about the Corvette, I compared it earlier to it.

And like I said, it's not in the same conversation

as the Corvette.

But most Corvette, like special edition,

like I'm thinking C506, even C401,

those are like the creme de la creme versions of that car.

And they're still not really going up in value, right?

You can get those for around,

like the ZR1 went up a little bit.

I remember you can get a ZR1 for like close to 15,000.

Now they're like 25, 30, correct me if I'm wrong,

maybe I haven't checked the market on those in a while.

But like, I feel like American cars, sports cars,

just don't ever, you don't really see him,

skyrocketing value that much.

The Viper, unlike the Corvette, is a rare car.

Like you never see a Viper, you really don't.

Like, I mean, obviously you do

because you know people, you're in the VOA community.

But like, it's not a Corvette, so it shouldn't,

I feel like values shouldn't be held down

because they're in abundance, they made so many of them.

Interesting, you know, I like numbers.

Viper and Corvette comparison.

The year that they made the least amount of Corvettes,

it was in the high 30,000 that they had for just one year.

Of all the years of Viper, almost 30 years now,

dating back to 94, there's 32,700 in change

or something like that.

So less than, all the years of Viper

are less than the lowest year of production for Corvette.

Now if you look at the numbers for the C8 Corvette this year,

they've already produced over 100,000 of those cars.

Three times as many Viper's ever been produced.

So it is a really rare car.

It is a special car and that's why

they were able to command a little bit more MSRP.

They were not an expensive car though when they came out

in comparison to the Corvette.

They were more, but you had two extra cylinders.

You had more power and you had the styling of a Viper.

You had the rarity of a Viper.

Yeah, so I guess it just boggles my mind.

I do think these are cars that should be

super car values, right?

Over 100,000, like I disagree.

I think it'll eventually get there.

It has to because there's a lot of guys,

like my age that had lusted for these as kids

the same way I did and you did,

that are willing to fetch big money for them.

I would think willing to fetch big money for them,

but because, and I see what Doug DeMiro's saying,

like if it hasn't happened by now,

because these guys that we're talking about

are now going into their 40s, right?

Usually when they start hitting their 30s, right?

That's when they start, the values go up.

It's that bell curve where people that lusted for cars

in their youth eventually start driving the values up

when they're in their adulthood,

into their 30s, into their careers

and now they're making money

and they have that expendable cash,

but it hasn't happened yet, right?

So like, I just feel like maybe it's the American,

you know, it's an American car.

American cars don't really go up that much.

Like, you know, I look at the Corvette

and I look at those special edition cars

that are great bang for your buck, like you said, right?

Those are track focused cars, ready to go in stock form

and you can still get a Z065 for around 30 grand,

maybe even less.

Yeah.

So it's just like, I don't know,

like what could keep it down?

I don't think the analog thing is a factor

because people are spending millions of dollars for an F40,

you know, and I get it, that's a more special car

because it's such a low production

and it's Italian and foreign and all that cool stuff.

It's a Halo V12.

But like, people spend a lot of money for analog cars.

The Shelby Cobra, for example, right?

People, I mean, a real Shelby Cobra,

we're talking hundreds of thousand dollars, right?

I mean, I forget what they're worth.

One thing I'd like to note,

and I wanna see if Steve agrees with this,

is in talking to prospective buyers of the Viper

that we're selling here at Analog and Grit,

I've noticed that a lot of people are looking

for what in their mind is the Viper.

So if they find their dream spec,

the miles are right, it's the color they want

and everything else,

there are certain people who see the value in it

and those kind of people might one day

be willing to sign a blank check for such a car

if they find the one that checks all their boxes.

Another thing too is,

now the engine configurations are changing across the board,

we're seeing a lot of turbo six cylinders,

hybrid drive trains and stuff like that.

People are really starting to lust

after those large displacement NA motors.

So I think if the Viper does have a good chance

of really climbing in value, it might take a while,

but I don't think it's impossible.

I think if Dodge ever comes out with something to,

kind of quote unquote, replace the Viper,

it's not gonna have that same excitement

and something like that could be helpful

to the Viper values.

That's a really good point.

When a new generation Viper comes out,

the last generation Viper was gen five,

last year of production was 2017.

They had a hard time selling those cars,

they sat on lots in 2017,

they were actually selling below MSRP.

Now fast forward, not five years, just after COVID,

you start to see the prices of gen five Viper's skyrocket.

Now you're seeing cars that were 130,000 MSRP

sell for double that with miles on it,

with 20,000, 30,000 miles on them.

They're selling for twice.

And then when you're talking about ACR extremes

or one of one GTCs, they're selling into the 300,000.

They're not just, they're not asking high twos or low threes,

they're getting the numbers in the 300,000 range.

So that's a good point Dylan.

And I'm curious to see if Dodge has something up their sleeve.

Stilanus has a new CEO and the CEO has stated

that his favorite car is the Viper.

This year, 2025 at SEMA,

Dodge will be debuting a new car.

We don't know what it is.

I think everybody, I think people have confirmed

that it's a two door, there's a few details out,

but how exciting would it be if Dodge Viper

announced the gen six Viper?

I think that that would really affect value as well.

That would affect the gen five value most significantly.

I think you'd start to see, they would stabilize.

You wouldn't see this constant increase.

I think that they would fall back down,

at least for 2013 to 2015 and 16 GTS,

I think you could see them in the low 100s

where their MSRP was sub 100 or low 100.

So I'd like to see those stabilized

because I'd like to add that to my collection, a gen five.

If not, I'm holding out hoping that Dodge announces

that gen six Viper because I will be one

of the first people to sign up and start specking it out.

Yeah, I think the craze for V8s came back

with the electric car.

So when you mentioned that, like you said,

it's a great point because people have that,

they're yearning for that V8 visceral experience

that you could only get in an American muscle.

Dodge has stayed true, like you said,

their ethos has always been to have

that raw visceral experience in their demons

and Hellcats and all that stuff.

That's what people love about them.

So I think once the electric car came out

and they came out with that EV charger,

whatever the hell it was, the Dodge,

like no one bought it, it got discontinued

in less than a year, it told the company,

like the market doesn't want this, you know?

They admitted that they made a mistake

and that's why they've brought the Hemi back.

They made a mistake.

And that's what they're known for, is that Hemi?

Now the only time you see the electric chargers

is like a salesman that works at Dodge

that was able to get a good lease deal on it.

You know what I mean?

There's nobody who's going to the dealer

lining up to buy one of those.

And I think a big part of that is because

that car speaks to a lot of the legacy customers,

the people who like their 60s muscle cars,

the older guys who now are more than willing

to pay top dollar for a modern V8 muscle car,

especially one that's like plum crazy purple

or one of those old school colors.

And they're just going to cringe

when they see an electric version of it.

It's just not, they would never see themselves in it,

no matter how cool it looks.

Right, yeah, that's fair.

I mean, the Dodge brothers since day one,

like I remember watching that history channel

special on them, like they've always wanted

to go fast in a straight line, right?

So that's the ethos of the brand

and that's what people love about Dodge and the Hemi

and all those great things regarding the V8,

in this case, the V10, right?

But like when it comes down to it,

will the Dodge Vipers eventually go up in value?

Like when I'm thinking about it,

like I feel like I can't see,

other than the people yearning to get that visceral experience

cause there's no other V10 cars out there anymore

that are under a hundred thousand dollars, right?

Cause it's so unique and so rare.

That's the only thing I could see driving the values up, right?

Because no one's buying that car

because they, you know, want a luxury car experience

or anything like that, right?

It's obviously super analog.

It has a reputation of being a widow maker,

but I don't think that's hurting values.

I just think it's simply the fact that it's American, you know?

And people aren't spending big money on,

and I'm talking about the ACRs, right?

Those cars are obviously going up in value, like you said,

but I'm just trying to think like what is keeping GT,

like the base model GTS and RT10s,

what's keeping them down and I don't know.

What do you think about the increase in value

of the first generation Ford GT?

The first generation one?

Like the-

Well, 2005.

Oh, five?

Yeah.

For like early 2000.

Yeah, actually Doug DeMiro, just cause he owns one,

he said that his has gone up in value,

but they've kind of flat lined or they stabilized,

but they have gone up in value.

And like to be honest, I think values go up in increments.

They don't go up all at once and then they stop.

Like it's not like, oh, this stock is gonna break out

and now it's gonna be worth trillions and keep going.

Like they go up in increments.

Like it'll go up, maybe like in this case,

the Viper's doubled in value from let's say 06 to 2025.

And then now, oh, 2016 to 2025, right?

That's less than 10 years, they've doubled in value

and now they've stabilized,

but that doesn't mean it won't go up in value again, right?

I don't know what reason would make it go up again.

Inflation.

Yeah, I mean, but that's the thing,

is it beating inflation, right?

Like, cause that's his argument in his video

is it's just keeping up with inflation.

But at the same time, not that many cars

keep up with inflation, right?

That's a good point.

I mean, if you can hold the value of a car

and continue to enjoy it,

that's the same with collecting a watch

or anything that's collectible.

You could drive it for free essentially, you know?

Exactly.

Something I would like to note on this topic is like,

if the Viper does go up in value,

it might be hard to put a timeframe on.

That's the only thing, like a lot of people

who are buying these cars to like flip

or like I just mentioned to essentially drive for free,

they want predictable growth, you know?

And maybe the predictable growth is not there.

And I think that's kind of what Doug Demiro was saying

Viper Values - Why It’s The Coolest Dodge Ever Built

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