What Dealers Really Cost You, The Used EV Flood Is Coming, High Power Hybrids & Minivan Death Traps
Auto Buyers Guide Podcast
What Dealers Really Cost You, The Used EV Flood Is Coming, High Power Hybrids & Minivan Death Traps
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Term
power split planetary hybrid systems
This is a type of hybrid where gears inside the transmission help mix the gas engine and electric motor together. It’s designed to work efficiently at different speeds.
Car
Toyota Tacoma
A Tacoma is a medium-size pickup truck made by Toyota. People like it for hauling and for driving on rough roads. In the podcast, it’s brought up as a possible place where a certain idea or setup could fit well.
Car
Toyota RAV4
The Toyota RAV4 is a popular SUV. They’re saying Toyota’s hybrid system approach works well in mainstream models like this, which helps explain why some other hybrid layouts don’t get adapted for trucks.
Car
Toyota Camry
The Toyota Camry is a common family sedan. The hosts are using it as an example of a hybrid design that’s already successful in big-selling cars.
Car
Toyota Prius
The Toyota Prius is Toyota’s famous hybrid. They’re pointing out that Toyota’s hybrid system works well in high-volume cars like the Prius, so it’s easier to justify and scale.
Term
diesel engine
A diesel engine is a type of gas engine that runs on diesel fuel and is often efficient. They’re wondering if using a small diesel would make an extended-range hybrid work better, but it may cost more or add weight.
Car
Dodge Charger
The Charger is a sporty four-door car made by Dodge. It’s designed to feel quick and exciting to drive. The podcast mentions it while discussing different powertrain ideas that could change how cars like this work.
Term
turbo v12's
A turbo V12 is a V12 engine with a turbocharger. The turbo helps it make more power, especially compared to similar engines without turbos.
Brand
Bentley
Bentley makes very upscale luxury cars. The speaker’s saying a smooth, easy-to-use powertrain would fit the way Bentleys are supposed to feel.
Car
Chrysler Aspen
The Chrysler Aspen was a big SUV. In this discussion, it’s mentioned as one of the vehicles that briefly used a complicated hybrid setup.
Car
Mercedes-Benz ML 450 hybrid
They’re mentioning a Mercedes hybrid SUV, the ML 450 Hybrid. The point is that some hybrid versions were only produced for a few years.
Concept
12 volt battery drain issue
Even in an EV, there’s usually a small 12-volt battery that runs the electronics. If it drains too quickly, the car can act up even though the main battery is fine.
Term
lead acid battery
Lead-acid is the traditional 12V battery chemistry found in many vehicles. The speaker contrasts it with AGM and lithium, arguing that lead-acid may not recover as well when repeatedly discharged in EV 12V drain scenarios.
Term
lithium batteries
Lithium 12-volt batteries are a different type of battery than the usual lead-acid. The appeal is that they can be smarter about protecting themselves and managing charge.
Term
ventilated cloth seats
Ventilated seats use fans and perforations to move air through the seat surface for cooling. The speaker later focuses on how perforation quality can differ between cloth and leather, affecting comfort and consistency.
Term
perforations
Perforations are the small holes in seat upholstery that allow air from the ventilation system to pass through. The speaker argues that consistent perforation patterns are easier to achieve in leather than in cloth, which can affect cooling performance.
Term
air conditioning
Air conditioning is what keeps the car cool inside. Without it, summer heat can make the cabin feel sticky and uncomfortable.
Term
trim level
Trim level is basically the “version” of the car you buy. Higher trims usually add nicer features like better seats or ventilation.
Term
Nagahide
Nagahide is the name Subaru uses for the material behind their nicer seat upholstery. It helps explain why some trims get that premium seat look/feel while others don’t.
Term
stains
Stains are a big part of seat upkeep. The hosts are saying leather and cloth don’t stain the same way, and light-colored seats are especially sensitive.
Term
animal-free interior
That just means the car’s seats and trim are made without animal products like leather. Instead, they use man-made or recycled materials that try to look and feel similar.
Concept
synthetic leather
Synthetic leather is fake leather made from materials like plastics and fabric. It’s used so the car can look like leather without using real animal hide.
Concept
lease returns
When a lease ends, the car is returned and usually gets sold as a used car. If lots of leases end at once, it can flood the used market.
Brand
Tesla
They’re talking about Tesla as the early EV leader. The point is that today’s EV market is bigger than just Tesla’s sales.
Concept
public charging access
Public charging access means chargers you can use away from home. If there are enough of them, it’s easier to own an EV even if you can’t charge overnight at home.
Term
manual transmission
A manual transmission means you shift gears yourself using a clutch pedal and a stick. The host is saying this performance sedan is supposed to be more fun to drive because it won’t be automatic-only.
Concept
EVs
EVs are cars that run on electricity instead of gasoline. How fast and how easy it is to charge them affects whether people buy them.
Concept
carry inventory
“Carry inventory” means dealerships stock cars on-site rather than waiting for customer orders. Holding inventory ties up money and creates additional costs (space, financing, and logistics), which can be reflected in pricing.
Concept
plug-in hybrid
A plug-in hybrid is a car that can drive using electricity or gasoline. You can charge it like an EV, but it also has a gas engine for longer trips.
Concept
complexity comes room for issues
The speaker is pointing out that more complex powertrains (like plug-in hybrids and serial hybrids) can introduce more failure points and harder-to-diagnose problems. Complexity can increase the chance of reliability issues, especially if components are tightly integrated.
Brand
Volvo
Volvo is a car brand from Sweden. They’re known for safety, and they’re also working on plug-in hybrid cars. Here, the discussion is about whether Volvo could make a weird-but-usable plug-in hybrid wagon idea work.
LIVE
Hello and welcome to another auto buyer's guide podcast. Today we're talking about high horse power hybrids. Why are they missing dealer profits?
How much exactly is that new car dealer costing you quick charging the upcoming
flood of EVs that are gonna be on the used car market and unsafe minivans
So
Travis our first question comes from a viewer want to let us know what he's asking
Yes, so Troy wrote in why are there no higher output power split planetary hybrid systems?
Toyota standard hybrid has been proven to be reliable and efficient
But when they introduced the max they went with a automatic transmission instead
Is it matches what other brands have done?
Is there a technical limitation between engine and motor power balance that makes it impractical something about the battery discharge capability?
Or is the CVT nature of it the one really adding some to some of these limitations a little bit of that paraphrase
But it's a good question because Troy is absolutely right
Yeah, and I have to admit that I was actually sad that
Toyota went in this direction rather than resurrecting the one high horsepower hybrid system that we did have if you recall
there was a 440 horsepower approximate hybrid system in the LS 600 H and
Lexus and Toyota have dabbled with rear-wheel drive planetary power split hybrids in the past
We had one in the GS with the v6
We had a v8 in the LS 600 H and the HL
And then there was a inline 4 in the Lexus IS that for some reason we never got in the US and the century now has
Something around 400 horsepower, although that system is more closely related to what's in the Lexus TX hybrid now
Supposedly as far as I have been told there were two reasons for this sort of
Dead-end point development the first one is cost because planetary power split hybrids need relatively large and powerful electric motors
For the the final drive motor MG2 in Toyota parlance
Costs tend to escalate rapidly
It also there just aren't going to be that many vehicles that they could stuff
Theoretically said hybrid system into so they thought it just wouldn't make sense to develop more
The second thing a little bit more logically
I think is that some of the Ford engineers indicated to me that there were concerns over
Vibration in some of the more powerful
Planetary power splits that some companies were trying to develop you'll notice that in the Lincoln
There's a 310 horsepower. I believe it is hybrid system with turbo engine
That hybrid system is a little bit disappointing based on its power output figures and the actual performance
We get out of the vehicle as well
I might I might add there
But I think it's mostly just the cost and complexity of those larger motors that maybe couldn't be used in something else
When you look at Toyota's hybrid line up, for instance, they have one common motor design
You know whole huge number of their hybrids even the Subaru hybrids the Mazda hybrids share some of those same electric motor designs
That really helps bring down costs
But I think the other part of that is just Toyota's really really
Pragmatic and and
What's the right word here?
conservative engineering philosophy in these vehicles
Lexus has dabbled in higher horsepower things and Toyota has but as the the headliner in this technology
They they have never really explored the high-performance segment with anything else
So why explore it with the planetary power split hybrids and then the final part of that puzzle?
I would say is the hybrid max systems
They thought that those would have broader applications with the truck lineup
planetary power split systems can sometimes suffer
From some cooling demands and cooling realities around high torque low speed applications like towing like hill climbing with heavier loads, etc
And that's why they claim that they did not use
Blexus IS GS or LS hybrid systems those three rear-wheel drive hybrid systems none of them made their way into the truck line
Although I honestly think that a resurrected Lexus GS hybrid system would actually be fantastic in something like a Tacoma
I don't know. What do you think about that Travis?
So, I mean, I think it comes down to the technology could exist
But like I said a lot of it comes down to cost and one of the first things when it reading this question was sort of the why or why not and it was when
Back to just right the internal combustion when you looked at a timing chain and whether it was a belt or a chain and
Ended up being a belt which is for you know, larger engines
Which shouldn't make sense because those are gonna be now you have to replace them
Yes, but that's all a measure to counteract some of the smoothness that they're trying to get out of a specific application
Could you scale this up totally?
But number one the application you talked about in towing and trucks in heavier duty use case
Those are not vehicles you ever want failing any sort of test when it comes to their ruggedness, right?
because that immediately see to put a huge hamper on all the work that you've already done and
And then like in these rear-wheel drive units, you know
Obviously, they're not gonna sell anywhere near as much as the front-wheel drive power splits that we have in the RAV4 and the Camry and the Prius
Etc. Etc. So it's sort of it's an interesting way to look at it. They totally could I have no doubt
But this is this is where I would love to be in some of those engineering meetings or the debrief. Hey, here's what we did
I want to go but what didn't you do like what else was tested that didn't make it through and and the why and it could
Be just as simple as oh, it was a cost thing because
The other thing I think about, you know, all these
Things like that the RAM charger powertrain the extended range and I go, oh, you know be great is a little diesel engine
That'd be way more efficient for this application
Absolutely, it would but it's about cost and in that case weight
So it's one of those technologies that could exist. Why do most EVs not have
Two-speed transmissions well because one is good enough. They could always have to but yeah, unfortunately to trade off for cost
And in in Toyota's lineup, you can see some of this trade-off when we look at the hybrid max systems for for instance here
The LS 600 H system
The way that the way that a planetary power split hybrid works is that MG 2 again in Toyota parlance
Ford and etc. Call their motor unit something different
But the the MG 2 motor in this setup has to have pretty high torque
Characteristics it has to be about as torquey as the entire output of the whole system for for this contraption to work
Horsepower figures tend to be a little bit lower than max system horsepower, but but also pretty healthy. It's a pretty big electric motor
so if we look at for instance a
Rav4 hybrid and a Tucson hybrid or a Grand Highlander hybrid and
A of the regular hybrid system and a Palisade hybrid or actually even better
Grand Highlander hybrid to hybrid max
The hybrid max's motor is actually quite a bit less powerful
Than MG 2 in the other design and MG 1 in the system has to be a pretty decently healthy motor as well
Because it's going to be constantly used in the operation of the system. So
There's at least 10 to 20 percent of entire of all the engine power and torque going from MG 1 to MG 2
Electrically when a planetary power split hybrid system is rolling down the road
That's the electrical loop that they're really trying to limit as much as possible
The rest is mechanically being transferred and MG 1 and 2 are controlling that mechanical link basically in a
Hybrid system like we find in the Palisade for instance where we have a motor directly connected to the engine and then a motor connected to the transmission
The both motors a can be smaller
The other thing key thing here is that the motor that's attached to the engine
Which is typically labeled P1 in this instance kind of the corollary to the the MG 1 in a way
Not only can it be a lot smaller. It's actually not used very much at all
So it can have a lot less cooling dedicated to it. Typically. It's externally mounted on the engine
It's often air-cooled in some applications
Sometimes liquid cool doesn't really matter too much because it's it's only being used at idle when it needs to charge the battery
So at a stop sign or stop light etc. if battery charge is low and in very limited situations where
Maybe very low speeds where you can't engage the clutch yet and you're in that serial operation mode
Which is very limited case in those vehicles if you're out on the open highway
It's not doing a darn thing for you. The other motors the one generating power to to charge things or
Assisting the vehicle in its locomotion down the road. So it definitely is
Easier quote-unquote, which is probably why Hyundai and Kia latched on to it because it was a fast development for them
And it saves some resources on these higher horsepower higher torque applications, which is what toyot is doing
Volvo of course uses a very similar setup
And I will say that the the interesting thing is that customers also seem to like the shifting
That was one complaint about the LS 600
I don't know if you ever drove it Travis, but to me to me the LS 600h was actually the the ultimate
chauffeur's vehicle
Success in the US obviously
Yeah success in the US that makes sense because we don't have chauffeurs by and large here
Yeah, even wealthy people tend not to have be chauffeur driven
But if you are chauffeur driven just the smoothness of that drivetrain just went with everything and I always thought that the LS
600 was actually the ultimate LS in my mind
Right obviously not necessarily the performance model, but when you're going for a cruise
Why not have it be smooth and efficient and obviously the power is there
But not the one you're you know getting for jumping off the line in a in a big
Big rock is sort of way. Yeah, it it performed. Well, it sounded great
I thought and versus the naturally aspirated v12's of the era mind you obviously the turbo v12's that came
Around that same time just blew it out of the water
But at the time 400 horsepower in a full-size luxury sedan was actually really quite good
There were there were the AMG's and and well not the MS, but the alpinas and the AMG's etc
And those obviously went in a very different performance direction, but for that classic
acceptable power smooth delivery
That's honestly the kind of drivetrain. I would have loved to have seen in a Rolls Royce or Bentley. Oh
Okay, I could see that personality
Yeah, because you know, obviously those are those are high-power machines because part of luxury is having everything available
But it's not it's not the same thing as an AMG as an alpina, you know
Doesn't have that same sort of touch to it. So yeah, that would have been an application and Toyota would have probably been on board with
Sharing some of that tech because it lowers the cost of everything for them
Yeah, I have a feeling that the classic Rolls Royce shopper would have had trouble with the Toyota engine, but you know, whatever
You just don't advertise it, you know, yes, everyone would know
I will say that outside of the passenger car
segment we do still have high horsepower and high torque
planetary power split systems in buses and
and larger vehicles
Because the joint venture that was this crazy wackadoodle thing where Mercedes and Chrysler and BMW and GM all got in bed together
to create the the multi-stage hybrid that we found for a limited time in GM trucks a
Chrysler Aspen
BMW and
Theoretically they were supposed to be a Mercedes, but everybody else everybody abandoned it and really I think it was just the BMW the
Chrysler and the GM truck that got it if my memory serves correctly at any rate
That was a novel system because it combined a planetary power split system with a four-speed automatic transmission
Actually in a way that's similar to what Lexus did with with one of their rear-wheel drive transmissions that had a two-speed transmission in it
But the one in the one in GM's was more complex
It could do compound splitting and input splitting and some fixed ratios there for towing and hauling
It was a truly innovative transmission and that that design allowed the motors to be a bit smaller on the inside
But it was hideously expensive and that's why it only lives on in in buses where you know costs are high
Right, so it makes sense that the applications of the runtime that sort of thing was that the like the mid-2000s or so like this
Silverado and the debate do they have an escalator at least like a Tahoe hybrid as well. Oh my memory is bad
I know there were prototypes. I don't remember if the the full-size SUV hybrid made it to market
I think so. I know that the trucks did there was a very little a very minor fuel economy
Improvement because they didn't really have the budget to do anything to the engine in that
The Aspen hybrid is rare as Hen's teeth
That was the Chrysler one in this bunch and
If my memory serves correctly Mercedes was like nope, it's too expensive stick a fork in it
And you know, it's bad when Mercedes decides something's too expensive
Yeah, yeah, they're not the ones who are terribly worried about that from the jump. Mm-hmm
It looks like the late late
2000s and
Early 2010s is where some of those fell and it looks like the escalator may have been one of them
Alex interrupting here with a quick fact check on the hybrid systems
The global hybrid corporation as it was named was initially a joint venture in 2004 between Domler Chrysler
They were still together at the time and General Motors BMW joined in 2005
It was started because GM and Domler Chrysler realized they had both been working on a similar concept for hybrids for trucks and bigger vehicles
GM wanted hybrid trucks and big SUVs
Domler theoretically wanted rear-wheel-drive hybrid sedans
Although everybody ended up jamming the hybrid system in an SUV of some sort
General Motors launched first with the Tahoe and Yukon followed a year later by the Silverado the Sierra and the Escalade hybrids
Everything used a six-liter V8 on the General Motors side when Mercedes kicked Chrysler to the curb in 2008
Hybrid system development was already far enough along that they stuck with it and they released the hybrid Durango and the hybrid Chrysler
Aspen although they didn't last very long because the mismanagement by Mercedes ended up with Chrysler declaring bankruptcy only about a year later
BMW launched the X6 active hybrid not the X5 as I might have originally said in this video and the world's most powerful hybrid at the time
Was that X6 that lasted two model years the ML 450 hybrid lasted three short model years and
GM stuck with it for six years total
Currently the hybrid tech lives on in the Allison e-Gen flex transmission lineup that's used primarily in buses now back to the episode
Our next question comes from David
Yes, and David would like to know or David has a comment and the question
He says I have a 2023 EV6
So the Kia with a failing 12 volt battery which seems to be a common problem
We discussed that on our last episode
Would you recommend replacing it with a standard lead acid a GM or lithium battery or EV 12-volt batteries under more stress than ice
Batteries and then we'll add here also it seems newer cars
Especially luxury cars told for brake fluid flushes every two to three years for my last two cars
I don't recall having to do that. Why the change? What's the deal? So thanks for that one David
I know that I've done some brake fluid flushes and maybe maybe they've changed a little bit over the years
But I think it's one of those maintenance items that people will hit at their, you know
30 60 90,000 mile intervals and it says they just say hey
Here's your 30,000 mile service and maybe they're not breaking it down bit by bit
But unless I miss something I think we've always done brake fluid changes
Maybe they've changed a little bit or what they're using has changed, but they've always been there, right? Yeah, these are two interesting questions
I would say for EVs that tend to have a 12 volt battery drain issue
AGM batteries would give you the best lower cycle performance
So taking batteries down to a lower SOC than a regular lead acid battery would as far as being able to recover it better
They're gonna be a bit more expensive the newer crop of relatively in air quotes here affordable
Lithium batteries do really interest me here because they should have battery management systems
That will completely cut off the battery before cell damage occurs
And then you should be able to safely recharge them assuming you can actually get into the vehicle
Of course, which is a whole other problem
So if you're worried about something that happens regularly
I've actually been thinking about putting a lithium ion battery in my Jeep Grand Cherokee
I have a 2000 Grand Cherokee whose battery is always dead because the early 2000s these
Chrysler alarm systems drain a regular 12 volt battery in about two weeks and yeah, you know, we drive it every
Maybe about three to four weeks is probably our typical
So really similar like a power draw concern as a modern EV
Who would have thought that your Cherokee or you know Grand Cherokee is so relevant today
Yeah, hopefully there'll be some software updates and hardware updates that will solve the 12 volt battery drains that we see out there
But that's that's what I might recommend and again if you are concerned about this and you can park it in a garage or whatever
And you're worried about it or experiencing it
Just leave your car unlocked so that way you can get to the battery now on the brake fluid flushing side of things
I think that there are two things at at play here
The first one is remember that brake fluid in modern vehicles is
Hydroscopic it absorbs water and that's done on purpose because they didn't want water to pool in places and in a
Older classic brake system where brake fluid was hydrophobic where it did not absorb water
You could actually end up with water collecting in low places in the system
And that obviously leads to corrosion and junk in there etc. Can plug valves up and whatnot
the other thing seems to be
More of a focus on performance and maintaining the performance that that customers may be expected
Especially in higher performance vehicles where the brake fluid is getting hotter than in in your average Camry
They're assuming that you're gonna be driving your M340 I differently than you're driving a Toyota Corolla for instance
But I probably would would go for a brake flush every two to three years anyway myself
Yeah, I think that's kind of been the cycle
I've been on is every few years, you know even my Tesla goes in for service and I'm not even using my brake fluid very often
But it's not something that wants to sit there for a very long time. So
Yeah, and if you if you leave it too long, you end up in my Jeep Grand Cherokee situation for I've been meaning to flush its brakes for
two or three years and
That that brake pedal feels like a Scotch-Bright. Let's just put it that way. It's a little spongy
Should be as a
Services especially the ones that are you know important life-saving measures and when it comes to that battery
It really is a software issue at the moment and and sort of the best way around
The the connected car is essentially it right and the car is always wanting to stay on and how that does or doesn't tap into that 12 volt battery
We're gonna have to get that fixed soon
I mean, it's not every manufacturer is having the exact same issue, but but it is essentially focused to
Kind of here's the why but what's the solution?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And
Next up we have an upholstery question
Yes, and it's it's it's one you and I both had to do a little looking for
It says which would you choose and why ventilated cloth seats or ventilated leather seats?
It says aura here says they are in four seasons territory
Super getaway offers cloth seats and leather seats to pay on the trim
Although we've confirmed not offering cloth seats. It starts in this their star techs synthetic material
But so just sort of a general question is you know, why would you go towards cloth versus leather because or or even the synthetic?
Right, let's just put the leather and synthetic in the same category
Why would you go one way or the other and and I'm actually mostly curious about ventilated cloth seats
I think that comes down to kind of the quality of those perforations. It's a lot easier to put clear concise
consistent perforations in leather than it is going to be in cloth at least not like some unless the cloth some sort of
Reinforced and you know, I don't know tell me what you think on that one Alex about let's start with ventilation
And then we'll go back to the seating material in general
Yeah, I am struggling to recall if I have seen a vehicle
With ventilated cloth seats before it should be possible because the same mechanism that would give you ventilation
In a perforated leather seat should be able to do that
But it is my recollection that the BMWs that have had wool blend upholstery's and the
Volvos that have wool blend upholstery's do not have seat ventilation in those trims
That probably be the most likely but I'm sure some commenter will let us know down there
And my guess on that is is twofold again
It's it's sort of leather is a sturdier material than this cloth
And so when you the whole point of having vents is that these holes are open and if you're in a cloth seat
I imagine there's just more closing, you know coverage that yeah
The other one the other one is just a necessity. I think it's just a necessity thing more more than that though
Okay, ventilated seats. I think are the answer to people liking and wanting leather
For the look and the whatever but then not liking the fact that they make your butt sticky in the summer
And so yeah, you know in the before times and we just had cloth seats and velour seats
Like if you look at the Toyota century for instance in Japan where it's a high-end luxury vehicle
Their most expensive thing they've ever sold it has for a long time not offered leather
I don't remember I think it does now
But for the longest time Toyota did not offer it with leather because it wasn't considered in that market to be
Luxury to be premium because they wanted the seat to be able to breathe
Every time I'm in a car with cloth seats. I kind of remember especially in the summer. You're like this is kind of nice
It's it vents better. It breathes more
It's like the whole whole rise of the leather sofa in living rooms in the 90s
I remember my my my best friend's parents got a leather sofa and in the winter
I was like, oh, it's kind of nice and then in the spring you're like, oh, it's kind of feels refreshing and cool
And then the summer rolls around and in the Bay Area
It was really really common to not have homes with air conditioning like newer builds have air conditioning now
But really wasn't a thing and yeah, and so it was it was a toasty sticky in the summer
so
Leather ventilated leather seats are the solution for the problem that was created by putting the leather seats in there in the
First place I would say that's probably how I would I would describe it
Yeah, I think it comes down to like which one would I pick?
Well, I actually really like a nice cloth seat and you can do different things with different types of cloth
It doesn't you know, we're not talking about like oh the base seat has to be this vinyl thing, right?
It's like hey, let's make this a nice a nice mixture. Let's make it comfortable. Let's make it breathe
Let's put some cool stitching in it
You know that that can feel to me just as premium then as as whatever the finest leather
You can imagine but it's not necessarily as easy to work with to do a very specific
You know stitch or embossment or those sorts of things
So I get it if I was gonna not have ventilated seats and I was worried about
My own cooling get the cloth one because it's not gonna heat up the same way and it is gonna breathe better
But I can't think of I mean off the top of my head anything that has cloth and ventilation
But you know again at that point
I wonder if it's a trim level thing because cloth is normally seen as the inferior seedy material and
Upper end is where you start to get the features as well
And I hate to tell you no trim of the gateway will get a cloth seat
We confirm that with Subaru. Sorry get away
Can confirm that with Subaru and their trim line it will have star tech star techs
Which is Subaru speak for nagahide in in a premium and limited so base and mid-level trims
Limited will get ventilated seats with soft techs
And then the two ring gets real leather faced seats not full leather leather faced and then ventilation is standard on that one as well
Yeah, so hopefully that answers the question and maybe we created a question and again
Let's talk to somebody next time we see him and say hey, why have we never done this and the answer probably the things we covered here
And hopefully more manufacturers especially in the luxury space
Think of fabric seats. I think
Volvo again in BMW you have some interesting fabrics that they've worked with recently that I think
Actually make the interior feel more pleasant than some of the leather products and and now
Instead of treating that cloth as a base option
You can get all the other interior luxuries and do dads with the cloth as just a selection
And BMW and Volvo have had some some really nice feeling and nice looking fabrics that that don't bunch etc
Like they used to that was one answer supposedly of why the cloth seat
You know era sort of ended a bit there is if you remember in the the you know 30 40 years ago
cloth seats
Could could wear out
differently the pile kind of looked funky after a while or it started to fold or bunch or pinch and things like that
but more modern fabrics and modern assembly techniques seem to have
Solved some of those issues. Let's put that way
I feel like a big one was also just the the longevity in terms of like stains, right?
Your leather isn't gonna stain the same way or it's easier to treat in advance or you clean up in short order
You know, so I have white seats right now. Would I have ordered white seats if they were cloth?
Probably not not in the same way
But and then and then to clean them would not necessarily be a rag to be a you know shampoo
Session and so it sort of upkeep becomes part of that
I do think it's interesting that the comeback of the cloth seat of the you know fabric inserts those sorts of things are now
Attached to eco and it says hey if you want an animal-free interior here is a premium
You know a polstered material instead. I go, I mean take it or leave it. I actually just like the aesthetic
I do like the feel a little bit more but
Yes, it's come back this sort of aligned with you know animal-free or eco-friendly recycled materials that sort of thing
And the some of the European manufacturers are taking an interesting twist with this where they're saying, you know
Leather is the eco-friendly thing in a way because the cows are gonna be eaten anyway
So we're using something with what would be a waste product and I'm creating a synthetic, right?
You're not creating a synthetic supposedly and the wool blend interiors are similar because sheep get shorn
They don't they don't get killed for their fleece
So you can reshear them over and over again and wool is real cheap because nobody's using wool anymore
So wool has become a very inexpensive commodity
Moving on to another theoretically possibly inexpensive commodity later mind you is a used EV because currently used EV prices are up
They're actually out indexing according to Mannheim right now out indexing gas vehicles on the used car market from lease returns
But apparently this year in 2026 there will be a sudden glut of somewhere between
800,000 and a million used EVs hitting the market
Yeah, that is a tidal wave now you and I both talked about just before we started recording
The fact that we saw headlines to say EV prices are up
Use EV prices are up as gas prices are up
I'm sure there's some level of correlation to that but nobody is going from their big diesel truck
It's saying maybe I should buy an EV instead. They would probably have to already been on some sort of well
I'm looking for something more efficient and electrified as is the next move
But I have to say uh, we're about to enter a spot where we have not been before right?
We we covered this as well
You know jumping in tesla has been the lion's share of electric vehicles on sale on the road in the united states
For years and it wasn't until the last couple years that they actually stopped being the majority of electric vehicles sold
Yeah, finally under 50%
Yeah, and which is crazy to think about right? That's like a that's like a model t type
Uh, you know penetration there, but where what it comes down to is not tesla sales
Absolutely diminishing to nothing. It's that we have so many more options and people are buying into these new options
But those people by and large are looking at leasing because this is a brand new technology to them
There's a lot of uncertainty. What does pricing look like in the incentives were fantastic. So
Those are about to start coming back in mass
Yeah, and it really does look like in the american market, especially that leasing
Is is the driver for possibly why we don't see as many affordable new cars as we once did because now we have
The cpo programs or these just even without it just this glut of of used vehicles that are theoretically
Checked over by the the dealer at to some extent when they're returned from the lease
And then sold on to the secondary life because lease penetration is is very high in the luxury segment
Some brands are are nearly 80 90 leases
The ev segment specifically is incredibly high in lease penetration
in 2023
The first year that ev sales in america went over 1 million it went decently over 1 million 1.2 million that year
And you know, that's why they're estimating this 800 000 to a million evs
Because we don't know exactly how many you're going to come off lease when and and all that
But they're also a solid number of two year leases like our own chevy blazer
It's a second year is almost up and it will be turned in july 1st. I believe it is so
Not too far away here
So it's going to be this group of 24 month leases, especially from gm from honda on the prologue on the blazer, etc
Those are coming up pretty soon
so
You know, the what intrigues me about this is this is sort of the the inverse of the problem we talked about last episode where
New car buyers are buying cars that fit their lifestyle, which is a not a manual transmission, right?
and the enthusiast in the second time they're they're wanting
Vehicles that weren't wanted by the first owner. They're wanting that that exotic colored car with the manual transmission
etc
And now they're going to be getting a glut of used evs. I don't know what that's going to do to the price tag
No, I mean and I I am I'm guilty for this and my friend will never let me forget it
He was looking for a new car
I ended up talking him into a bmw i3 and I said listen the best
Deal you can get on a car right now is a used ev because the rest of the market is not valuing them
But if it meets your needs that means you get a great deal on a fantastic little car
And I said because you can see how much they depreciate it already
It's like they're not going to have the floor pulled out from under them and lose
infinitely more admittedly he lost more on that than
I would have liked for him too and he would have as well
But I think we're going to be in the same position at least for a minute because what we've talked about the biggest concern
About ev adoption is where do you plug it in?
First owners are not the ones who are worried about or about the second owners
And then the farther back it goes the more concerned you are third or fifth owners are less likely to
Be in their own home have access to easy charging
You know that sort of thing
But they're coming and so hopefully this infrastructure that's all been put in and the infrastructure that's planned
Hopefully we're talking about not just the new cars every year
But that the public charging access or the workplace charging access for all these people who?
If you can even plug into a 110 outlet and this is an unpopular opinion
But if you can plug into a 110 outlet and you drive less than 30 miles a day
You can own an ev as long as you're willing to stop occasionally for a dc charge
Uh, does your apartment have 110?
Are you renting a home that has a 110 because that's what my friend did with the i3 just a regular 110 outlet
Yep, just make sure of course that you know, your wiring is up to date. You're not overheating anything
Yes
Some some house unknown number of house fires have resulted in uh in fires because of sketchy wiring. So
Yes, and I've definitely I've definitely plugged another
Appliance into an outlet that ended up on the same circuit and had to go flip that circuit
But we got a lot of evs coming and I'll also say that three years ago. We still had really good evs
That's where my model three comes in it. I just hit three years the other day
I'll have a video out on that here soon
And um, that's not it's not an old Nissan leaf
You know, we're not talking about this this flood of vehicles that either no one's gonna want or it's not gonna be usable for them
You know, um the ev six that we talked about earlier. You have Ioniq fives
We have equinoxes and blazers and lyrics even
Uh, there's a whole lot of cars out here that that I think people are gonna really enjoy
But what they're gonna have to pay for them
Yeah, that's the unknown question and we will hopefully know that soon
I I am going to be interested to see what
Electric mccons and electric cayens look like because those are selling in larger numbers than I thought they would have
Uh, Porsche sold it looks like a nearly 9 000 electric mccons last year and uh about 5300 ticons
And the ticons are
Shockingly good deal for what is a very fun electric vehicle obviously, you know with high maintenance costs, but um
Very fun thing and then you and I were both shocked that somehow
Uh, it looks like Cadillac is the number two seller of a three row of three row EVs in america
Well real three row EVs because we don't know exactly how many of the teeny tiny third row tests are sold and in why but uh
Vistic and escalade iq together. They sold, you know about 16 000 things
Yeah, and that's what I was curious about because we looked into some of the tesla sales as well
And obviously, you know, the number is not climbing rapidly
But the model x did not sell that many last year and then in his full year last full year of sales
And to think that Cadillac has now outsold what was for a significant time the only three row electric vehicle you could purchase
Just speaks to what Cadillac was doing and what tesla just isn't they basically
Is r1s remember r1s r1s was yeah, but that was still a few years behind
I mean model x had had some ground
um
But yeah, the r1s would be the first one
I I leaned to is the direct tesla competitor with a totally different attitude
EV 9 Ioniq 9
Vistic obviously escalate iq, but that's you know, that's that's the the big dog literally of that bunch
And interesting twist 90s and id buzzes
There's a lot more three rows available
And one thing worth noting with the x or worth questioning
Is how many of them are actually three row because the third row was optional it started as a two row
And we really have never been able to get a good grip on exactly how many x's
Actually had that third row in the back versus just the five passenger version
Yeah, yeah, because for a couple of years it was its own totally separate option
And I would not be surprised if it was you know as much as a 5050 split and people said no no no
I don't need that third row
I just like the bigger more luxurious vehicle with more space in the big doors and you know
The third rows doesn't have to be a part of that that purchasing decision
You know which vehicles do have the third row as part of their purchasing decision
It's definitely minivans
And today's news is that in the latest ihs results, which were out recently
No minivan got a good score here
All due to rear seat injuries, which is now the big thing that ihs is focusing on
So front injuries actually were decent in all three minivan while four minivans should say
But there were different issues with every single minivan out there sienna's seat belt design in the second row allowed
Submarining with young children in the dummies there in the back
Carnival's head and chest protection was marginal. Well, at least it wasn't poor
Is what the odyssey got because of exceedingly high quote-unquote forces on the neck
So if you want to get into an accident and you want your baby's head to pop off and roll forward
I guess get yourself a odyssey there
And pacifica's side airbags failed to deploy in their asthma profile
So i'm i'm guessing just sort of you know bowling pins knocking around there in the back
Um in a nutshell they complained about seat belt tensioners and load limiters and seat belt positioning for every family focused
minivan in america
and this would be much less
Impactful if
Other three row suvs had the same issues, but they don't yes
And that's that's where i'm left confused. Yeah, every one of these companies
Had you are according to the numbers by ihs in the accident profiles
They evaluated you would be safer in a pilot in a grand highlander in a teluride in a grand shariqi l etc
All four of these car companies suvs are safer quote-unquote according to the ihs results than their family focused minivan
And to some extent that makes sense because the minivans are not on these rapid update cycles
They're all based on models that are 10 and 20 years old where a lot of these three row suvs are based on much newer much more updated
You know architectures
But again, you would think that the safety of the second and third rows are of the prime importance here and uh
We're just not there and just for my for my own clarification
Submarining would be where the child goes under the seat belt, right? Is not properly secured by it? Okay
Right. So they're they're saying it's a seat in sienna specifically
It's a seat belt ergonomics problem that allows the the pelvis to go under the the
Pelt the lower belts the lap belt section. So
You know legs and legs and torso shushing out from under there which can cause back injuries and things like that
um, but I am
I am surprised by that because sienna is the newest entry. It's i'm it's the only one that's new i would say
In this segment. So that's disappointing
Um carnivals numbers also a little disappointing odyssey is pretty old
But I think that odyssey is the most disappointing because those crash scores
Taken as a whole were the worst in the bunch and honda spends so much time really harping on safety
That uh that the odyssey's performance is probably the most stunning and you know, maybe this is just my my you know
Being facetious side, but I think we all expected that if anybody's airbag wasn't going to deploy it'd be the christlers
so
So so maybe their performance was expected, but it's still scored higher than odyssey
Yeah, without airbags. I mean obviously the different scores looking at different things
um
I I think we're at a point where unless there are brand new models coming out with significant changes to structure
and seat design
I think the death of the minivan is less on the suv
And at this point closer to the it's the manufacturer's fault for not keeping them up to date not making them
Clear in a way the safest thing to put your family in because that that feels like job number one is
Lots of space and utility which they do and they do better than either suv counterparts by and large
But they also need to be safe
That that's that I don't have the family and I know that right that seems like 101
Uh boy, we may be worried about the death of the minivan, but something getting a resurrection is gm's sedan lineup
We're apparently getting a camaro and a buick sedan coming soon in addition to the new cadillac sedans
I love this so much more than a camaro
Electric suv concept. Let me just start there
Nothing against the mustang maki. You didn't want a camaro maki
But like what wasn't it supposed to be corvette or camaro that was going to be its own spin-off
Essentially family line of something and it was all going to be a crossover in some way and and everyone was going to hate it
and
I might have been one of them
But it's bold to bring back in a sedan and you know what
Is is infinity the one to blame because they're talking about we're bringing a performance sedan back
It's going to have a manual transmission
Does general motors have to respond to infinity the answer is no, but it's a fun question
I think that I think there's a a few things going on here
The sedan market seems to have obviously cooled
But it has cooled and coalesced around a in ever enthusiastic an ever more enthusiastic buyer
So that person that wants more performance, etc
Better handling
We also saw that christler when they had charger and and challenger and 300
They were selling a really large number of really large sedan things and cooped things
So there's there's obviously a market out there mustang is doing relatively well
But but when you look at the loss of challenger in that segment
It's not like the customer suddenly went to mustang and started buying mustang in huge numbers
They moved to something else. Hopefully maybe some of them could come back
I am just surprised
Well, maybe I shouldn't be though
GM is not developing a new rear wheel drive platform for these vehicles. Apparently this is going to be alpha 2-2
So a revised version of the alpha platform that the previous camaro ran on
And that platform has always been problematic for me because it it's not
Great as far as packaging efficiency goes the old camaro was really small on the inside with a really small truck
I mean it looked great, but but functionality is key here and and
Even if it's going to an enthusiast's audience who doesn't need the most practical space inside
You still have to be able to put somebody or something in there
You don't want to have to fold down your back seats for a weekend trip
Um, you know, however, I kind of appreciate that we're not necessarily going to go as large as the new charger
Which is humongous
Uh, and I worry less about what that looks like for a camaro as I would and I'm assuming in this case
Are we doing a camaro four door or let's say camaro two door and then a buick sedan
It sounds like it's
Yeah, sounds like it's going to be camaro two door and a buick four door
And then the cad lax will be four doors as well
Right, so in a similar vein of like what charger did they have a two door and a four door
So your general construction is using a lot of the same components that keep your costs down
That's how you can bring something back
But uh, so I'm less concerned about the camaro application more worried about what you know
Buick has not had anything like this in a long time. Yeah, I'm kind of worried about some of the details here
The the space efficiency of the platform because again
Ats and and camaro were on the alpha platform
They both were quite small on the inside
So if that can be resolved and and the the crash structures occupied a lot of room
In these vehicles as well in the original alpha platform vehicles
So if they can fix that that would be great if they could also give it a double wishbone front suspension
I think that would be fantastic
The world where we have double wishbones up front in in a lot of
Less expensive vehicles, especially than the cad lax and then the cad lax. We're getting McPherson struts
I think is just a a bit of a problem handling and and feel wise up front
But that space efficiency thing is what what concerns me a buick sedan
if it's
if it's
Corolla sized on the inside camry sized on the outside and priced like a crown
That's a that's a recipe for a problem
Yeah, yeah, that's that's failed
From the start
Unless it looks incredible and has one heck of a powertrain
But it would still go down and yeah, you could do that. I mean they've got the 10 speeds nice
I know there have been some problems with it by some people
But I think it's a nice transmission and GM has has some really great engines from the Cadillac line
If they could borrow all the fun twin turbo sixes
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
They even have a plug-in hybrid for the ct-6 that is still being used in china as I recall
So, you know, that could even be fun. Yeah, I'm curious. I mean, well if you're talking about
tight spacing
To begin with and that's obviously the thing you're gonna have to navigate around would be a battery application
But but is charge is is charger telling chimero
Don't go electrified because that's not what the people want or is Chevy gonna say no no no trust us. We got this
You thought the volt was interesting
Check out our new chimero. I don't know. Yeah, well
Is that the first plug-in we'll get from general motors here in the u.s. Oh
because
I'm gonna go with no
But I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a hybrid buick a hybrid buick is far more plausible than a plug in hybrid or an electric chimero
I think at this point in time
Very true very speaking of interesting electric things from china though geely the parent of volvo and poll star recently said
Hold my beer byd and they made a car that charges 10 percent to 80 percent in just five minutes and 32 seconds
32 seconds being the critical mark there. So apparently 15 or 20 seconds faster than the byd that just took the record
This is more impressive though 10 percent to 97 percent. So on a 300 mile range ev you know recovering almost all 300 miles
Only took eight minutes 42 seconds and that thing peaked at 1100 kilowatts
It dropped down pretty rapidly of course still cooking along at 500 kilowatts at 75 percent
Which is faster than anything in the u.s. It dropped down to 350 kilowatts
The peak in a ton of ev is all brand new here in the u.s. At 97 percent
So it was still cruising along faster than
a Hummer ev with the battery
charge was
more than
basically all of our
top speeds
Yeah, I uh
I'm impressed the question I suppose is
How much how much does that actually drive sales in the u.s.
Apparently it does seem to be a big driver of sales in china
Where people by and large don't have home charging and they're really trying to push evs
Into market segments that are different than north america, but it's it is that question of you how important really is it?
so I
Oh boy, where do I start?
I don't love look how fast we can charge it when it goes beyond
Again, what I think is a is a reasonable application
Uh cool to see the tech and in good to see that that'll work its way out over the next couple years
You know put it in a premium product see what it does and then make it more accessible
But if you were going to put in charging stations, would you rather have?
five 1100 kilowatt stations, or would you rather have?
10, you know 500 kilowatt stations, or do you want you know again?
Like how do you want to scale these things? Yeah, if you're really really worried about spacing which I understand then of course
that's that's where that premium is
but
I
Here in the u.s. I don't know if there's any reason to do that
Just put a bunch of stalls in at you know the current 350 kilowatts for the people that'll use it occasionally
And you know in peak times is there a small weight?
um
Or do you have do you have two of these available?
And they activate during peak hours, and that's when you can swing in and zip on through
But but what's the cost right now just in building the infrastructure?
But what's that car now having to to be built for and again?
What's what's the overall use case because that feels like an option that I would immediately skip on the order sheet
If I could give me give me the big battery
You give me the powerful engine give me all the features
I'll skip the the super super super fast charging because I don't need to pay for
I think I I don't think I would skip it somehow the question in a way is
You if you have the 1100 kilowatt chargers
You could push twice the number of cars through per hour as a 500 kilowatt station
Is the station twice as expensive?
You know perhaps could be but the physical constraints are not
I would hope not but I wouldn't bet on it
um
The physical constraints though are definitely cut in half
So in an average gas station type situation
You could push the same number logically roughly of cars through
A navy charging station like this as the average gasoline or diesel pump could push through so we're talking
You're getting to that stage versus having to be parked for half an hour and having
You know only two cars per hour go through there if you're lucky
It is an interesting question
Especially given the relationship that Volvo and Polestar have to geely that you know
I wonder how long it really is going to be until we get some of this tech through to the more conservative brands Volvo and Polestar
Uh for north america in europe
Yeah
Um, I mean it won't be coming to north america soon soon
I don't imagine especially because we're talking about the companies that don't currently sell cars in the united states
Not that there's no affiliation with like you said Volvo and Polestar, but there's no byd. There is no geely
these are
And again our infrastructure isn't built for it. So you know, we're talking about switching over to na cs
Which could also be a limitation to this
But if we're all switching to na cs
Uh, let's get I'd say get more of those plugs out on the road before we start putting the super super super fast versions
Of those plugs that again will only be accessible by the brand newest car
Um, yeah, it's just it's just an interesting scale question
Yeah, it's one of those things like if you if you don't build it it will never come though
So what comes first?
I don't want to say mainstream adoption, but relative adoption of wireless level 2 charging or 1000 kilowatt dc
fast charging
I I think higher higher current
I think higher current dc charging is more likely to come the wireless charging
Is an expensive play thing an expensive novelty
I just don't think that has much of a place in
In more budget conscious EVs, especially
Which would be required to reduce the cost and and and increase the likelihood that you would start to see public
wireless charging infrastructure
In that way the the Porsche system is the new
Standard for this the one that they use is a universal standard. So theoretically other vehicles could use it
Um, but it's it's pretty darn expensive though the whole thing and it adds weight to the vehicle which decreases efficiency and
It is it self less efficient to charge
than a
A connection, you know wired connections. That's the question
Also less efficient mind you is our dealer network, which is our next topic. This this one struck me as interesting
Apparently the nonprofit the international center for law and economics answered the question that I have wondered
Which is exactly how much does a dealer network cost you as a consumer when you buy a new vehicle?
And they have an answer for the average $50,000 new car in america. It's between four and five thousand dollars
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean
everything here costs money and
That's not necessarily four or five thousand dollars is going directly into them, you know the the dealer's pocket
But it's the cost of operation and it's one of the reasons we have all of these dealers in the first place
Because especially when a manufacturer is getting spun up, let's say back in the day
They don't want to take on this enormous cost of having to now sell their cars on their own
You know, it's not a world of of digital access like it used or now like it was
So you had to have somebody else sell the car for you. That's that's why stores exist
Yeah, it's interesting where this goes. So basically the fact that dealers carry inventory
So you can choose from the selection. Oh cars there rather than ordering and waiting for it to get delivered or ship
That cost is around a thousand to eleven hundred dollars of the total
Advertising and other costs related to actually shifting the metal. That's about sixteen hundred dollars
And then staff and rather rest of the overhead is somewhere between 1200 and 1900 with others
amounts floating in there elsewhere
But it's a it's a pretty sizable chunk of change that this adds to the cost of a new vehicle
Which actually goes back to uh tesla interesting thing
The markets used to be really marveling at tesla's margin
And I always said hang on a minute guys the margin at bmw in russetes is intrinsically more impressive
Because if the car company here
Is is getting a margin of I don't know 15 to 18 percent
Which is pretty normal in the luxury segment and the dealer network is getting a 10 percent margin here
That total is a really impressive total margin
And when you look at the the amount of money made on a bmw buy everybody in the chain
From bmw through to you getting a bmw
It's it's nearly 30 percent margin there between the dealer and the
Of the manufacturer and that's way more impressive than than tesla's margin
You have to remember that tesla is the dealer and the car manufacturer
so
It is an interesting twist here, but it also is an impediment to affordable vehicles to be honest
yeah, and
And that's what it's not like this drastically drops in price because the car got cheaper, right?
They still have to have it in inventory. They still have to do their advertising. They still have staff
And they're not gonna
They're not gonna take that
Cost from the the less expensive car and just add it to the new one
It's it's all about averages each car is going to average this certain turnover rate and and again
That's that's why you end up paying more
So i'm not saying it's all dealer's fault and and it would be in an interesting world
You go back to where we're now mass producing the the you know the ford model t
Who is selling them if ford kept selling them if chevy is the only one who sold chevy's and and you know
But what does that world look like and I think if that's how it started
We have a very different approach to new manufacturers, right?
The hondas as they come in the key is in the hundays
What does it look like to to start up because the startup cost is so much more and I think we end up with
Less variety less options less competition
So as much as I don't love the dealer network, I think we're only where we're at in some of the positives because it exists
Yeah, it's an interesting question
The dealer network is is tricky in a way to spin up as well even if you do have the resources
I mean just look at genesis and how long it's taking to really stand up
A genesis dealer network in the united states and that's limiting their sales in the us and hunday has got some really huge deep pockets
The reason there of course is because they've got to physically build the dealers and convince people to buy the franchise and
And all of that and get everything approved and and whatnot
It is an interesting question without a finite answer though
um
Our last topic here that I wanted to cover is I don't know if you saw this
Review but geely let edmunds have a hand at their three row plug-in hybrid
Which is an interesting vehicle. So anybody geely that wants us to drive it, you know, you know where we are
Hey at auto buyers guide dot com send us your voice memos and questions
Just he y at auto buyers guide dot com or call us at six six nine eight four two one nine four seven
Again six six nine eight four two one nine four seven and if one of those starts with hey, it's geely trust me
We're gonna get back to you as quickly as we can
But uh on geely's three row plug-in hybrid. This is an interesting twist
because
Going back to some of the hybrid discussions
We just had a moment earlier and some of our earlier conversations on extended range plug-in hybrids extended range evs and whatever you want to call those
The chinese market. I think has sorted this
performance plug-in hybrid out thing a lot better than others
This 1.5 liter turbocharged four-cylinder system that is in this geely is also in
The volvo plug-in hybrid. I mean massaged a lot of course for the volvo in china
But it combines a three speed automatic transmission
With two electric motor generator units and it allows serial operation parallel hybrid operation gas only operation
Higher speed performance improvements and it drives
More like an evy than other plug-in hybrids and i'm forced to just wonder
is
Is the sort of dislike of plug-in hybrid driving
That that some customers in the u.s. Say they have is that just because
There's a lack of research and development and maybe a laziness a lack of development on these systems
Possibly right because it's it's very similar to what we just talked about at the beginning of the show about
You know a high power hybrid system using a planetary gear set
The three speed transmission is more complex than a single speed transmission
But it has huge benefits if you can make it make sense
And so you get instant performance and your low gears you get way more efficiency and your high gear
um
And and then how does it all come together?
You know you and i go back and forth on serial versus parallel hybrids not because of the argument on efficiency
But how they're applied and this one says hey you can do it all
Which in theory as long as those programs are are tuned correctly the software is is keyed in you know
Actually the thing that perked my ear was in gasoline only operation
And my first thought was that has to happen in a very limited sense when you have this much tech on board
But I can see a spot where it does
Do you build it in or is it just say hey, we're we're throwing everything on the table
We're gonna see how it works. So I love this
Again, let's get behind the wheel of this
And see how it works
But what's what's what's the cost?
And and the the efficiency benefit that the consumer is going to get are they willing to pay the cost
For the in theory savings
Or the or the huge performance gains right because people will either pay right to have more fun
Or spend less money like that that's where I think value is found in in general
Well, this tells you the the general cost of things especially in china is that this geely three row ev well plug in hybrid thingy
It's apparently the equivalent of around 25 to 28 thousand us dollars
Even though it's about the size of a pilot palisade, etc
You get 858 horsepower total 130 miles of ev range on the incredibly generous chinese cycle
So probably more like you know 80 90 miles of real world range still pretty decent
41 kilowatt hour electric battery
But but the way that it drives is somewhat ev like in that huge horsepower total
But but then there's the efficiency
Question I think has been sort of solved by the way that this system is put together versus what we're seeing in extended range ev is
because
Since the 1.5 liter turbo can directly power wheels through the automatic transmission
That's how you get to 850 at horsepower total. It's not you know
To nearly 500 horsepower electric motors, which would be expensive. It's this gasoline engine
Driving the front axle when you're commanding all 858 horsepower
So that's going through the mechanical side there whereas the rear motor is basically getting power from
The battery pack in that that acceleration profile
So it it kind of merges the the benefits of both sides to give you more oomph
And allowing you to have a smaller battery
And a smaller front electric motor etc to kind of make that work
No, I think there's like no two ways around it if this dropped here in the us today
It'd be a top seller. We'd be all over it
Like I might even be looking at a three row even though I have no interest in one just because of everything this could do
I may have been shopping on some auction sites and looking at some really high power plug-in hybrids
Right as we clicked record on this
either way
Um, this is still a long ways off from what we'll get here in the us
But there's no reason somebody here couldn't do the same. It just obviously would end up costing a lot more than that
You know $30,000
Yeah, the sad part. I think really is that there seems to be just so little development in plug-in hybrids without the tax incentives that
Especially now. I just I just can't see many companies
Trying for these these really interesting middle grounds
um
Even the upcoming Nissan hybrids the the serial hybrid systems
It kind of sounds like they're backing away from maybe some of their initial plans that that they would have a bigger battery option
And a smaller battery option seems like they're really just gonna be focusing on the hybrid without plug option
Yeah, and I I hate to say it, but I don't blame them again
Especially in this in this economy when you look at the the models that year-over-year
Don't seem to have changed much at all. It's kind of shocking and I'm I'm not
I'm not trying to say it's the dark ages of of automotive development, but everyone's just been put in sort of a
Okay, hold on
We had to be really careful with what we do or don't spend here and
And if we had all this money invested in EVs and hybrids and plug-in hybrids, you know
I'm not even sure how many plug-in hybrid projects had their plug pulled so to speak
Yeah, and we may never know because it doesn't seem like there was this a huge swath of them oncoming
But no, but too geely that's that's certainly an impressive system
Hopefully it's reliable, right? Obviously that would be a thing to consider with complexity comes room for for issues, but
No, definitely impressive
Yeah, my personal hope is that that may be a manufacturer
Like Volvo could get away with that plug in hybrid system
In that that's in china in the uh, believe it's the cross country something rather the wagon basically the plug in hybrid wagon
My my memory is is spacing out on the exact model number of alphabet soup there
but
I think if anybody could get away with a wackadoodle thing like that it could be Volvo
It would have to be built somewhere other than china though. I think
For it to work in the united states and that's that's just a whole different impediment
Yeah, especially because right now where is safe is a really really ambiguous question
And with that we will let everybody uh get back to the rest of their day and we will see all of you next week
Thanks for turning in
About this episode
The Auto Buyers Guide Podcast dives into why Toyota hasn’t pursued higher-output planetary power-split hybrids, weighing cost, motor sizing, vibration concerns, and cooling limits versus simpler hybrid architectures. The hosts then tackle practical EV ownership issues: a looming used-EV “flood” from high lease penetration, what that could do to prices, and how charging access changes who benefits. They also cover safety concerns in minivans (IHS rear-seat injury scores), plus dealer-network costs, ventilated seat preferences, and rapid-charging tech from China.
Original notes
This week on Auto Buyer's Guide, we're digging into why nobody's making high horsepower hybrids anymore (blame Toyota's pragmatism and the ghost of the Lexus LS 600h), answering viewer questions on 12-volt battery woes and whether you actually need to flush your brakes, and debating why ventilated leather seats are really just a solution to a problem leather created in the first place. We've also got a look at the incoming tidal wave of 800,000-plus used EVs about to flood the market from lease returns, the dismal IIHS rear-seat safety scores that somehow managed to make every minivan in America look bad, GM's surprise resurrection of the Camaro and a Buick sedan on a platform that was already too small the first time around, Geely's absurd 1,100-kilowatt charging demo that puts everything stateside to shame, the $4,000-5,000 dealer markup you're paying whether you realize it or not, and a Chinese plug-in hybrid three-row with 858 horsepower that costs less than a loaded Camry — which really makes you wonder what exactly we're doing over here.
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