What Dealers Really Cost You, The Used EV Flood Is Coming, High Power Hybrids & Minivan Death Traps

Hello and welcome to another auto buyer's guide podcast. Today we're talking about high horse power hybrids. Why are they missing dealer profits?

How much exactly is that new car dealer costing you quick charging the upcoming

flood of EVs that are gonna be on the used car market and unsafe minivans

So

Travis our first question comes from a viewer want to let us know what he's asking

Yes, so Troy wrote in why are there no higher output power split planetary hybrid systems?

Toyota standard hybrid has been proven to be reliable and efficient

But when they introduced the max they went with a automatic transmission instead

Is it matches what other brands have done?

Is there a technical limitation between engine and motor power balance that makes it impractical something about the battery discharge capability?

Or is the CVT nature of it the one really adding some to some of these limitations a little bit of that paraphrase

But it's a good question because Troy is absolutely right

Yeah, and I have to admit that I was actually sad that

Toyota went in this direction rather than resurrecting the one high horsepower hybrid system that we did have if you recall

there was a 440 horsepower approximate hybrid system in the LS 600 H and

Lexus and Toyota have dabbled with rear-wheel drive planetary power split hybrids in the past

We had one in the GS with the v6

We had a v8 in the LS 600 H and the HL

And then there was a inline 4 in the Lexus IS that for some reason we never got in the US and the century now has

Something around 400 horsepower, although that system is more closely related to what's in the Lexus TX hybrid now

Supposedly as far as I have been told there were two reasons for this sort of

Dead-end point development the first one is cost because planetary power split hybrids need relatively large and powerful electric motors

For the the final drive motor MG2 in Toyota parlance

Costs tend to escalate rapidly

It also there just aren't going to be that many vehicles that they could stuff

Theoretically said hybrid system into so they thought it just wouldn't make sense to develop more

The second thing a little bit more logically

I think is that some of the Ford engineers indicated to me that there were concerns over

Vibration in some of the more powerful

Planetary power splits that some companies were trying to develop you'll notice that in the Lincoln

There's a 310 horsepower. I believe it is hybrid system with turbo engine

That hybrid system is a little bit disappointing based on its power output figures and the actual performance

We get out of the vehicle as well

I might I might add there

But I think it's mostly just the cost and complexity of those larger motors that maybe couldn't be used in something else

When you look at Toyota's hybrid line up, for instance, they have one common motor design

You know whole huge number of their hybrids even the Subaru hybrids the Mazda hybrids share some of those same electric motor designs

That really helps bring down costs

But I think the other part of that is just Toyota's really really

Pragmatic and and

What's the right word here?

conservative engineering philosophy in these vehicles

Lexus has dabbled in higher horsepower things and Toyota has but as the the headliner in this technology

They they have never really explored the high-performance segment with anything else

So why explore it with the planetary power split hybrids and then the final part of that puzzle?

I would say is the hybrid max systems

They thought that those would have broader applications with the truck lineup

planetary power split systems can sometimes suffer

From some cooling demands and cooling realities around high torque low speed applications like towing like hill climbing with heavier loads, etc

And that's why they claim that they did not use

Blexus IS GS or LS hybrid systems those three rear-wheel drive hybrid systems none of them made their way into the truck line

Although I honestly think that a resurrected Lexus GS hybrid system would actually be fantastic in something like a Tacoma

I don't know. What do you think about that Travis?

So, I mean, I think it comes down to the technology could exist

But like I said a lot of it comes down to cost and one of the first things when it reading this question was sort of the why or why not and it was when

Back to just right the internal combustion when you looked at a timing chain and whether it was a belt or a chain and

Ended up being a belt which is for you know, larger engines

Which shouldn't make sense because those are gonna be now you have to replace them

Yes, but that's all a measure to counteract some of the smoothness that they're trying to get out of a specific application

Could you scale this up totally?

But number one the application you talked about in towing and trucks in heavier duty use case

Those are not vehicles you ever want failing any sort of test when it comes to their ruggedness, right?

because that immediately see to put a huge hamper on all the work that you've already done and

And then like in these rear-wheel drive units, you know

Obviously, they're not gonna sell anywhere near as much as the front-wheel drive power splits that we have in the RAV4 and the Camry and the Prius

Etc. Etc. So it's sort of it's an interesting way to look at it. They totally could I have no doubt

But this is this is where I would love to be in some of those engineering meetings or the debrief. Hey, here's what we did

I want to go but what didn't you do like what else was tested that didn't make it through and and the why and it could

Be just as simple as oh, it was a cost thing because

The other thing I think about, you know, all these

Things like that the RAM charger powertrain the extended range and I go, oh, you know be great is a little diesel engine

That'd be way more efficient for this application

Absolutely, it would but it's about cost and in that case weight

So it's one of those technologies that could exist. Why do most EVs not have

Two-speed transmissions well because one is good enough. They could always have to but yeah, unfortunately to trade off for cost

And in in Toyota's lineup, you can see some of this trade-off when we look at the hybrid max systems for for instance here

The LS 600 H system

The way that the way that a planetary power split hybrid works is that MG 2 again in Toyota parlance

Ford and etc. Call their motor unit something different

But the the MG 2 motor in this setup has to have pretty high torque

Characteristics it has to be about as torquey as the entire output of the whole system for for this contraption to work

Horsepower figures tend to be a little bit lower than max system horsepower, but but also pretty healthy. It's a pretty big electric motor

so if we look at for instance a

Rav4 hybrid and a Tucson hybrid or a Grand Highlander hybrid and

A of the regular hybrid system and a Palisade hybrid or actually even better

Grand Highlander hybrid to hybrid max

The hybrid max's motor is actually quite a bit less powerful

Than MG 2 in the other design and MG 1 in the system has to be a pretty decently healthy motor as well

Because it's going to be constantly used in the operation of the system. So

There's at least 10 to 20 percent of entire of all the engine power and torque going from MG 1 to MG 2

Electrically when a planetary power split hybrid system is rolling down the road

That's the electrical loop that they're really trying to limit as much as possible

The rest is mechanically being transferred and MG 1 and 2 are controlling that mechanical link basically in a

Hybrid system like we find in the Palisade for instance where we have a motor directly connected to the engine and then a motor connected to the transmission

The both motors a can be smaller

The other thing key thing here is that the motor that's attached to the engine

Which is typically labeled P1 in this instance kind of the corollary to the the MG 1 in a way

Not only can it be a lot smaller. It's actually not used very much at all

So it can have a lot less cooling dedicated to it. Typically. It's externally mounted on the engine

It's often air-cooled in some applications

Sometimes liquid cool doesn't really matter too much because it's it's only being used at idle when it needs to charge the battery

So at a stop sign or stop light etc. if battery charge is low and in very limited situations where

Maybe very low speeds where you can't engage the clutch yet and you're in that serial operation mode

Which is very limited case in those vehicles if you're out on the open highway

It's not doing a darn thing for you. The other motors the one generating power to to charge things or

Assisting the vehicle in its locomotion down the road. So it definitely is

Easier quote-unquote, which is probably why Hyundai and Kia latched on to it because it was a fast development for them

And it saves some resources on these higher horsepower higher torque applications, which is what toyot is doing

Volvo of course uses a very similar setup

And I will say that the the interesting thing is that customers also seem to like the shifting

That was one complaint about the LS 600

I don't know if you ever drove it Travis, but to me to me the LS 600h was actually the the ultimate

chauffeur's vehicle

Success in the US obviously

Yeah success in the US that makes sense because we don't have chauffeurs by and large here

Yeah, even wealthy people tend not to have be chauffeur driven

But if you are chauffeur driven just the smoothness of that drivetrain just went with everything and I always thought that the LS

600 was actually the ultimate LS in my mind

Right obviously not necessarily the performance model, but when you're going for a cruise

Why not have it be smooth and efficient and obviously the power is there

But not the one you're you know getting for jumping off the line in a in a big

Big rock is sort of way. Yeah, it it performed. Well, it sounded great

I thought and versus the naturally aspirated v12's of the era mind you obviously the turbo v12's that came

Around that same time just blew it out of the water

But at the time 400 horsepower in a full-size luxury sedan was actually really quite good

There were there were the AMG's and and well not the MS, but the alpinas and the AMG's etc

And those obviously went in a very different performance direction, but for that classic

acceptable power smooth delivery

That's honestly the kind of drivetrain. I would have loved to have seen in a Rolls Royce or Bentley. Oh

Okay, I could see that personality

Yeah, because you know, obviously those are those are high-power machines because part of luxury is having everything available

But it's not it's not the same thing as an AMG as an alpina, you know

Doesn't have that same sort of touch to it. So yeah, that would have been an application and Toyota would have probably been on board with

Sharing some of that tech because it lowers the cost of everything for them

Yeah, I have a feeling that the classic Rolls Royce shopper would have had trouble with the Toyota engine, but you know, whatever

You just don't advertise it, you know, yes, everyone would know

I will say that outside of the passenger car

segment we do still have high horsepower and high torque

planetary power split systems in buses and

and larger vehicles

Because the joint venture that was this crazy wackadoodle thing where Mercedes and Chrysler and BMW and GM all got in bed together

to create the the multi-stage hybrid that we found for a limited time in GM trucks a

Chrysler Aspen

BMW and

Theoretically they were supposed to be a Mercedes, but everybody else everybody abandoned it and really I think it was just the BMW the

Chrysler and the GM truck that got it if my memory serves correctly at any rate

That was a novel system because it combined a planetary power split system with a four-speed automatic transmission

Actually in a way that's similar to what Lexus did with with one of their rear-wheel drive transmissions that had a two-speed transmission in it

But the one in the one in GM's was more complex

It could do compound splitting and input splitting and some fixed ratios there for towing and hauling

It was a truly innovative transmission and that that design allowed the motors to be a bit smaller on the inside

But it was hideously expensive and that's why it only lives on in in buses where you know costs are high

Right, so it makes sense that the applications of the runtime that sort of thing was that the like the mid-2000s or so like this

Silverado and the debate do they have an escalator at least like a Tahoe hybrid as well. Oh my memory is bad

I know there were prototypes. I don't remember if the the full-size SUV hybrid made it to market

I think so. I know that the trucks did there was a very little a very minor fuel economy

Improvement because they didn't really have the budget to do anything to the engine in that

The Aspen hybrid is rare as Hen's teeth

That was the Chrysler one in this bunch and

If my memory serves correctly Mercedes was like nope, it's too expensive stick a fork in it

And you know, it's bad when Mercedes decides something's too expensive

Yeah, yeah, they're not the ones who are terribly worried about that from the jump. Mm-hmm

It looks like the late late

2000s and

Early 2010s is where some of those fell and it looks like the escalator may have been one of them

Alex interrupting here with a quick fact check on the hybrid systems

The global hybrid corporation as it was named was initially a joint venture in 2004 between Domler Chrysler

They were still together at the time and General Motors BMW joined in 2005

It was started because GM and Domler Chrysler realized they had both been working on a similar concept for hybrids for trucks and bigger vehicles

GM wanted hybrid trucks and big SUVs

Domler theoretically wanted rear-wheel-drive hybrid sedans

Although everybody ended up jamming the hybrid system in an SUV of some sort

General Motors launched first with the Tahoe and Yukon followed a year later by the Silverado the Sierra and the Escalade hybrids

Everything used a six-liter V8 on the General Motors side when Mercedes kicked Chrysler to the curb in 2008

Hybrid system development was already far enough along that they stuck with it and they released the hybrid Durango and the hybrid Chrysler

Aspen although they didn't last very long because the mismanagement by Mercedes ended up with Chrysler declaring bankruptcy only about a year later

BMW launched the X6 active hybrid not the X5 as I might have originally said in this video and the world's most powerful hybrid at the time

Was that X6 that lasted two model years the ML 450 hybrid lasted three short model years and

GM stuck with it for six years total

Currently the hybrid tech lives on in the Allison e-Gen flex transmission lineup that's used primarily in buses now back to the episode

Our next question comes from David

Yes, and David would like to know or David has a comment and the question

He says I have a 2023 EV6

So the Kia with a failing 12 volt battery which seems to be a common problem

We discussed that on our last episode

Would you recommend replacing it with a standard lead acid a GM or lithium battery or EV 12-volt batteries under more stress than ice

Batteries and then we'll add here also it seems newer cars

Especially luxury cars told for brake fluid flushes every two to three years for my last two cars

I don't recall having to do that. Why the change? What's the deal? So thanks for that one David

I know that I've done some brake fluid flushes and maybe maybe they've changed a little bit over the years

But I think it's one of those maintenance items that people will hit at their, you know

30 60 90,000 mile intervals and it says they just say hey

Here's your 30,000 mile service and maybe they're not breaking it down bit by bit

But unless I miss something I think we've always done brake fluid changes

Maybe they've changed a little bit or what they're using has changed, but they've always been there, right? Yeah, these are two interesting questions

I would say for EVs that tend to have a 12 volt battery drain issue

AGM batteries would give you the best lower cycle performance

So taking batteries down to a lower SOC than a regular lead acid battery would as far as being able to recover it better

They're gonna be a bit more expensive the newer crop of relatively in air quotes here affordable

Lithium batteries do really interest me here because they should have battery management systems

That will completely cut off the battery before cell damage occurs

And then you should be able to safely recharge them assuming you can actually get into the vehicle

Of course, which is a whole other problem

So if you're worried about something that happens regularly

I've actually been thinking about putting a lithium ion battery in my Jeep Grand Cherokee

I have a 2000 Grand Cherokee whose battery is always dead because the early 2000s these

Chrysler alarm systems drain a regular 12 volt battery in about two weeks and yeah, you know, we drive it every

Maybe about three to four weeks is probably our typical

So really similar like a power draw concern as a modern EV

Who would have thought that your Cherokee or you know Grand Cherokee is so relevant today

Yeah, hopefully there'll be some software updates and hardware updates that will solve the 12 volt battery drains that we see out there

But that's that's what I might recommend and again if you are concerned about this and you can park it in a garage or whatever

And you're worried about it or experiencing it

Just leave your car unlocked so that way you can get to the battery now on the brake fluid flushing side of things

I think that there are two things at at play here

The first one is remember that brake fluid in modern vehicles is

Hydroscopic it absorbs water and that's done on purpose because they didn't want water to pool in places and in a

Older classic brake system where brake fluid was hydrophobic where it did not absorb water

You could actually end up with water collecting in low places in the system

And that obviously leads to corrosion and junk in there etc. Can plug valves up and whatnot

the other thing seems to be

More of a focus on performance and maintaining the performance that that customers may be expected

Especially in higher performance vehicles where the brake fluid is getting hotter than in in your average Camry

They're assuming that you're gonna be driving your M340 I differently than you're driving a Toyota Corolla for instance

But I probably would would go for a brake flush every two to three years anyway myself

Yeah, I think that's kind of been the cycle

I've been on is every few years, you know even my Tesla goes in for service and I'm not even using my brake fluid very often

But it's not something that wants to sit there for a very long time. So

Yeah, and if you if you leave it too long, you end up in my Jeep Grand Cherokee situation for I've been meaning to flush its brakes for

two or three years and

That that brake pedal feels like a Scotch-Bright. Let's just put it that way. It's a little spongy

Should be as a

Services especially the ones that are you know important life-saving measures and when it comes to that battery

It really is a software issue at the moment and and sort of the best way around

The the connected car is essentially it right and the car is always wanting to stay on and how that does or doesn't tap into that 12 volt battery

We're gonna have to get that fixed soon

I mean, it's not every manufacturer is having the exact same issue, but but it is essentially focused to

Kind of here's the why but what's the solution?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And

Next up we have an upholstery question

Yes, and it's it's it's one you and I both had to do a little looking for

It says which would you choose and why ventilated cloth seats or ventilated leather seats?

It says aura here says they are in four seasons territory

Super getaway offers cloth seats and leather seats to pay on the trim

Although we've confirmed not offering cloth seats. It starts in this their star techs synthetic material

But so just sort of a general question is you know, why would you go towards cloth versus leather because or or even the synthetic?

Right, let's just put the leather and synthetic in the same category

Why would you go one way or the other and and I'm actually mostly curious about ventilated cloth seats

I think that comes down to kind of the quality of those perforations. It's a lot easier to put clear concise

consistent perforations in leather than it is going to be in cloth at least not like some unless the cloth some sort of

Reinforced and you know, I don't know tell me what you think on that one Alex about let's start with ventilation

And then we'll go back to the seating material in general

Yeah, I am struggling to recall if I have seen a vehicle

With ventilated cloth seats before it should be possible because the same mechanism that would give you ventilation

In a perforated leather seat should be able to do that

But it is my recollection that the BMWs that have had wool blend upholstery's and the

Volvos that have wool blend upholstery's do not have seat ventilation in those trims

That probably be the most likely but I'm sure some commenter will let us know down there

And my guess on that is is twofold again

It's it's sort of leather is a sturdier material than this cloth

And so when you the whole point of having vents is that these holes are open and if you're in a cloth seat

I imagine there's just more closing, you know coverage that yeah

The other one the other one is just a necessity. I think it's just a necessity thing more more than that though

Okay, ventilated seats. I think are the answer to people liking and wanting leather

For the look and the whatever but then not liking the fact that they make your butt sticky in the summer

And so yeah, you know in the before times and we just had cloth seats and velour seats

Like if you look at the Toyota century for instance in Japan where it's a high-end luxury vehicle

Their most expensive thing they've ever sold it has for a long time not offered leather

I don't remember I think it does now

But for the longest time Toyota did not offer it with leather because it wasn't considered in that market to be

Luxury to be premium because they wanted the seat to be able to breathe

Every time I'm in a car with cloth seats. I kind of remember especially in the summer. You're like this is kind of nice

It's it vents better. It breathes more

It's like the whole whole rise of the leather sofa in living rooms in the 90s

I remember my my my best friend's parents got a leather sofa and in the winter

I was like, oh, it's kind of nice and then in the spring you're like, oh, it's kind of feels refreshing and cool

And then the summer rolls around and in the Bay Area

It was really really common to not have homes with air conditioning like newer builds have air conditioning now

But really wasn't a thing and yeah, and so it was it was a toasty sticky in the summer

so

Leather ventilated leather seats are the solution for the problem that was created by putting the leather seats in there in the

First place I would say that's probably how I would I would describe it

Yeah, I think it comes down to like which one would I pick?

Well, I actually really like a nice cloth seat and you can do different things with different types of cloth

It doesn't you know, we're not talking about like oh the base seat has to be this vinyl thing, right?

It's like hey, let's make this a nice a nice mixture. Let's make it comfortable. Let's make it breathe

Let's put some cool stitching in it

You know that that can feel to me just as premium then as as whatever the finest leather

You can imagine but it's not necessarily as easy to work with to do a very specific

You know stitch or embossment or those sorts of things

So I get it if I was gonna not have ventilated seats and I was worried about

My own cooling get the cloth one because it's not gonna heat up the same way and it is gonna breathe better

But I can't think of I mean off the top of my head anything that has cloth and ventilation

But you know again at that point

I wonder if it's a trim level thing because cloth is normally seen as the inferior seedy material and

Upper end is where you start to get the features as well

And I hate to tell you no trim of the gateway will get a cloth seat

We confirm that with Subaru. Sorry get away

Can confirm that with Subaru and their trim line it will have star tech star techs

Which is Subaru speak for nagahide in in a premium and limited so base and mid-level trims

Limited will get ventilated seats with soft techs

And then the two ring gets real leather faced seats not full leather leather faced and then ventilation is standard on that one as well

Yeah, so hopefully that answers the question and maybe we created a question and again

Let's talk to somebody next time we see him and say hey, why have we never done this and the answer probably the things we covered here

And hopefully more manufacturers especially in the luxury space

Think of fabric seats. I think

Volvo again in BMW you have some interesting fabrics that they've worked with recently that I think

Actually make the interior feel more pleasant than some of the leather products and and now

Instead of treating that cloth as a base option

You can get all the other interior luxuries and do dads with the cloth as just a selection

And BMW and Volvo have had some some really nice feeling and nice looking fabrics that that don't bunch etc

Like they used to that was one answer supposedly of why the cloth seat

You know era sort of ended a bit there is if you remember in the the you know 30 40 years ago

cloth seats

Could could wear out

differently the pile kind of looked funky after a while or it started to fold or bunch or pinch and things like that

but more modern fabrics and modern assembly techniques seem to have

Solved some of those issues. Let's put that way

I feel like a big one was also just the the longevity in terms of like stains, right?

Your leather isn't gonna stain the same way or it's easier to treat in advance or you clean up in short order

You know, so I have white seats right now. Would I have ordered white seats if they were cloth?

Probably not not in the same way

But and then and then to clean them would not necessarily be a rag to be a you know shampoo

Session and so it sort of upkeep becomes part of that

I do think it's interesting that the comeback of the cloth seat of the you know fabric inserts those sorts of things are now

Attached to eco and it says hey if you want an animal-free interior here is a premium

You know a polstered material instead. I go, I mean take it or leave it. I actually just like the aesthetic

I do like the feel a little bit more but

Yes, it's come back this sort of aligned with you know animal-free or eco-friendly recycled materials that sort of thing

And the some of the European manufacturers are taking an interesting twist with this where they're saying, you know

Leather is the eco-friendly thing in a way because the cows are gonna be eaten anyway

So we're using something with what would be a waste product and I'm creating a synthetic, right?

You're not creating a synthetic supposedly and the wool blend interiors are similar because sheep get shorn

They don't they don't get killed for their fleece

So you can reshear them over and over again and wool is real cheap because nobody's using wool anymore

So wool has become a very inexpensive commodity

Moving on to another theoretically possibly inexpensive commodity later mind you is a used EV because currently used EV prices are up

They're actually out indexing according to Mannheim right now out indexing gas vehicles on the used car market from lease returns

But apparently this year in 2026 there will be a sudden glut of somewhere between

800,000 and a million used EVs hitting the market

Yeah, that is a tidal wave now you and I both talked about just before we started recording

The fact that we saw headlines to say EV prices are up

Use EV prices are up as gas prices are up

I'm sure there's some level of correlation to that but nobody is going from their big diesel truck

It's saying maybe I should buy an EV instead. They would probably have to already been on some sort of well

I'm looking for something more efficient and electrified as is the next move

But I have to say uh, we're about to enter a spot where we have not been before right?

We we covered this as well

You know jumping in tesla has been the lion's share of electric vehicles on sale on the road in the united states

For years and it wasn't until the last couple years that they actually stopped being the majority of electric vehicles sold

Yeah, finally under 50%

Yeah, and which is crazy to think about right? That's like a that's like a model t type

Uh, you know penetration there, but where what it comes down to is not tesla sales

Absolutely diminishing to nothing. It's that we have so many more options and people are buying into these new options

But those people by and large are looking at leasing because this is a brand new technology to them

There's a lot of uncertainty. What does pricing look like in the incentives were fantastic. So

Those are about to start coming back in mass

Yeah, and it really does look like in the american market, especially that leasing

Is is the driver for possibly why we don't see as many affordable new cars as we once did because now we have

The cpo programs or these just even without it just this glut of of used vehicles that are theoretically

Checked over by the the dealer at to some extent when they're returned from the lease

And then sold on to the secondary life because lease penetration is is very high in the luxury segment

Some brands are are nearly 80 90 leases

The ev segment specifically is incredibly high in lease penetration

in 2023

The first year that ev sales in america went over 1 million it went decently over 1 million 1.2 million that year

And you know, that's why they're estimating this 800 000 to a million evs

Because we don't know exactly how many you're going to come off lease when and and all that

But they're also a solid number of two year leases like our own chevy blazer

It's a second year is almost up and it will be turned in july 1st. I believe it is so

Not too far away here

So it's going to be this group of 24 month leases, especially from gm from honda on the prologue on the blazer, etc

Those are coming up pretty soon

so

You know, the what intrigues me about this is this is sort of the the inverse of the problem we talked about last episode where

New car buyers are buying cars that fit their lifestyle, which is a not a manual transmission, right?

and the enthusiast in the second time they're they're wanting

Vehicles that weren't wanted by the first owner. They're wanting that that exotic colored car with the manual transmission

etc

And now they're going to be getting a glut of used evs. I don't know what that's going to do to the price tag

No, I mean and I I am I'm guilty for this and my friend will never let me forget it

He was looking for a new car

I ended up talking him into a bmw i3 and I said listen the best

Deal you can get on a car right now is a used ev because the rest of the market is not valuing them

But if it meets your needs that means you get a great deal on a fantastic little car

And I said because you can see how much they depreciate it already

It's like they're not going to have the floor pulled out from under them and lose

infinitely more admittedly he lost more on that than

I would have liked for him too and he would have as well

But I think we're going to be in the same position at least for a minute because what we've talked about the biggest concern

About ev adoption is where do you plug it in?

First owners are not the ones who are worried about or about the second owners

And then the farther back it goes the more concerned you are third or fifth owners are less likely to

Be in their own home have access to easy charging

You know that sort of thing

But they're coming and so hopefully this infrastructure that's all been put in and the infrastructure that's planned

Hopefully we're talking about not just the new cars every year

But that the public charging access or the workplace charging access for all these people who?

If you can even plug into a 110 outlet and this is an unpopular opinion

But if you can plug into a 110 outlet and you drive less than 30 miles a day

You can own an ev as long as you're willing to stop occasionally for a dc charge

Uh, does your apartment have 110?

Are you renting a home that has a 110 because that's what my friend did with the i3 just a regular 110 outlet

Yep, just make sure of course that you know, your wiring is up to date. You're not overheating anything

Yes

Some some house unknown number of house fires have resulted in uh in fires because of sketchy wiring. So

Yes, and I've definitely I've definitely plugged another

Appliance into an outlet that ended up on the same circuit and had to go flip that circuit

But we got a lot of evs coming and I'll also say that three years ago. We still had really good evs

That's where my model three comes in it. I just hit three years the other day

I'll have a video out on that here soon

And um, that's not it's not an old Nissan leaf

You know, we're not talking about this this flood of vehicles that either no one's gonna want or it's not gonna be usable for them

You know, um the ev six that we talked about earlier. You have Ioniq fives

We have equinoxes and blazers and lyrics even

Uh, there's a whole lot of cars out here that that I think people are gonna really enjoy

But what they're gonna have to pay for them

Yeah, that's the unknown question and we will hopefully know that soon

I I am going to be interested to see what

Electric mccons and electric cayens look like because those are selling in larger numbers than I thought they would have

Uh, Porsche sold it looks like a nearly 9 000 electric mccons last year and uh about 5300 ticons

And the ticons are

Shockingly good deal for what is a very fun electric vehicle obviously, you know with high maintenance costs, but um

Very fun thing and then you and I were both shocked that somehow

Uh, it looks like Cadillac is the number two seller of a three row of three row EVs in america

Well real three row EVs because we don't know exactly how many of the teeny tiny third row tests are sold and in why but uh

Vistic and escalade iq together. They sold, you know about 16 000 things

Yeah, and that's what I was curious about because we looked into some of the tesla sales as well

And obviously, you know, the number is not climbing rapidly

But the model x did not sell that many last year and then in his full year last full year of sales

And to think that Cadillac has now outsold what was for a significant time the only three row electric vehicle you could purchase

Just speaks to what Cadillac was doing and what tesla just isn't they basically

Is r1s remember r1s r1s was yeah, but that was still a few years behind

I mean model x had had some ground

um

But yeah, the r1s would be the first one

I I leaned to is the direct tesla competitor with a totally different attitude

EV 9 Ioniq 9

Vistic obviously escalate iq, but that's you know, that's that's the the big dog literally of that bunch

And interesting twist 90s and id buzzes

There's a lot more three rows available

And one thing worth noting with the x or worth questioning

Is how many of them are actually three row because the third row was optional it started as a two row

And we really have never been able to get a good grip on exactly how many x's

Actually had that third row in the back versus just the five passenger version

Yeah, yeah, because for a couple of years it was its own totally separate option

And I would not be surprised if it was you know as much as a 5050 split and people said no no no

I don't need that third row

I just like the bigger more luxurious vehicle with more space in the big doors and you know

The third rows doesn't have to be a part of that that purchasing decision

You know which vehicles do have the third row as part of their purchasing decision

It's definitely minivans

And today's news is that in the latest ihs results, which were out recently

No minivan got a good score here

All due to rear seat injuries, which is now the big thing that ihs is focusing on

So front injuries actually were decent in all three minivan while four minivans should say

But there were different issues with every single minivan out there sienna's seat belt design in the second row allowed

Submarining with young children in the dummies there in the back

Carnival's head and chest protection was marginal. Well, at least it wasn't poor

Is what the odyssey got because of exceedingly high quote-unquote forces on the neck

So if you want to get into an accident and you want your baby's head to pop off and roll forward

I guess get yourself a odyssey there

And pacifica's side airbags failed to deploy in their asthma profile

So i'm i'm guessing just sort of you know bowling pins knocking around there in the back

Um in a nutshell they complained about seat belt tensioners and load limiters and seat belt positioning for every family focused

minivan in america

and this would be much less

Impactful if

Other three row suvs had the same issues, but they don't yes

And that's that's where i'm left confused. Yeah, every one of these companies

Had you are according to the numbers by ihs in the accident profiles

They evaluated you would be safer in a pilot in a grand highlander in a teluride in a grand shariqi l etc

All four of these car companies suvs are safer quote-unquote according to the ihs results than their family focused minivan

And to some extent that makes sense because the minivans are not on these rapid update cycles

They're all based on models that are 10 and 20 years old where a lot of these three row suvs are based on much newer much more updated

You know architectures

But again, you would think that the safety of the second and third rows are of the prime importance here and uh

We're just not there and just for my for my own clarification

Submarining would be where the child goes under the seat belt, right? Is not properly secured by it? Okay

Right. So they're they're saying it's a seat in sienna specifically

It's a seat belt ergonomics problem that allows the the pelvis to go under the the

Pelt the lower belts the lap belt section. So

You know legs and legs and torso shushing out from under there which can cause back injuries and things like that

um, but I am

I am surprised by that because sienna is the newest entry. It's i'm it's the only one that's new i would say

In this segment. So that's disappointing

Um carnivals numbers also a little disappointing odyssey is pretty old

But I think that odyssey is the most disappointing because those crash scores

Taken as a whole were the worst in the bunch and honda spends so much time really harping on safety

That uh that the odyssey's performance is probably the most stunning and you know, maybe this is just my my you know

Being facetious side, but I think we all expected that if anybody's airbag wasn't going to deploy it'd be the christlers

so

So so maybe their performance was expected, but it's still scored higher than odyssey

Yeah, without airbags. I mean obviously the different scores looking at different things

um

I I think we're at a point where unless there are brand new models coming out with significant changes to structure

and seat design

I think the death of the minivan is less on the suv

And at this point closer to the it's the manufacturer's fault for not keeping them up to date not making them

Clear in a way the safest thing to put your family in because that that feels like job number one is

Lots of space and utility which they do and they do better than either suv counterparts by and large

But they also need to be safe

That that's that I don't have the family and I know that right that seems like 101

Uh boy, we may be worried about the death of the minivan, but something getting a resurrection is gm's sedan lineup

We're apparently getting a camaro and a buick sedan coming soon in addition to the new cadillac sedans

I love this so much more than a camaro

Electric suv concept. Let me just start there

Nothing against the mustang maki. You didn't want a camaro maki

But like what wasn't it supposed to be corvette or camaro that was going to be its own spin-off

Essentially family line of something and it was all going to be a crossover in some way and and everyone was going to hate it

and

I might have been one of them

But it's bold to bring back in a sedan and you know what

Is is infinity the one to blame because they're talking about we're bringing a performance sedan back

It's going to have a manual transmission

Does general motors have to respond to infinity the answer is no, but it's a fun question

I think that I think there's a a few things going on here

The sedan market seems to have obviously cooled

But it has cooled and coalesced around a in ever enthusiastic an ever more enthusiastic buyer

So that person that wants more performance, etc

Better handling

We also saw that christler when they had charger and and challenger and 300

They were selling a really large number of really large sedan things and cooped things

So there's there's obviously a market out there mustang is doing relatively well

But but when you look at the loss of challenger in that segment

It's not like the customer suddenly went to mustang and started buying mustang in huge numbers

They moved to something else. Hopefully maybe some of them could come back

I am just surprised

Well, maybe I shouldn't be though

GM is not developing a new rear wheel drive platform for these vehicles. Apparently this is going to be alpha 2-2

So a revised version of the alpha platform that the previous camaro ran on

And that platform has always been problematic for me because it it's not

Great as far as packaging efficiency goes the old camaro was really small on the inside with a really small truck

I mean it looked great, but but functionality is key here and and

Even if it's going to an enthusiast's audience who doesn't need the most practical space inside

You still have to be able to put somebody or something in there

You don't want to have to fold down your back seats for a weekend trip

Um, you know, however, I kind of appreciate that we're not necessarily going to go as large as the new charger

Which is humongous

Uh, and I worry less about what that looks like for a camaro as I would and I'm assuming in this case

Are we doing a camaro four door or let's say camaro two door and then a buick sedan

It sounds like it's

Yeah, sounds like it's going to be camaro two door and a buick four door

And then the cad lax will be four doors as well

Right, so in a similar vein of like what charger did they have a two door and a four door

So your general construction is using a lot of the same components that keep your costs down

That's how you can bring something back

But uh, so I'm less concerned about the camaro application more worried about what you know

Buick has not had anything like this in a long time. Yeah, I'm kind of worried about some of the details here

The the space efficiency of the platform because again

Ats and and camaro were on the alpha platform

They both were quite small on the inside

So if that can be resolved and and the the crash structures occupied a lot of room

In these vehicles as well in the original alpha platform vehicles

So if they can fix that that would be great if they could also give it a double wishbone front suspension

I think that would be fantastic

The world where we have double wishbones up front in in a lot of

Less expensive vehicles, especially than the cad lax and then the cad lax. We're getting McPherson struts

I think is just a a bit of a problem handling and and feel wise up front

But that space efficiency thing is what what concerns me a buick sedan

if it's

Corolla sized on the inside camry sized on the outside and priced like a crown

That's a that's a recipe for a problem

Yeah, yeah, that's that's failed

From the start

Unless it looks incredible and has one heck of a powertrain

But it would still go down and yeah, you could do that. I mean they've got the 10 speeds nice

I know there have been some problems with it by some people

But I think it's a nice transmission and GM has has some really great engines from the Cadillac line

If they could borrow all the fun twin turbo sixes

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

They even have a plug-in hybrid for the ct-6 that is still being used in china as I recall

So, you know, that could even be fun. Yeah, I'm curious. I mean, well if you're talking about

tight spacing

To begin with and that's obviously the thing you're gonna have to navigate around would be a battery application

But but is charge is is charger telling chimero

Don't go electrified because that's not what the people want or is Chevy gonna say no no no trust us. We got this

You thought the volt was interesting

Check out our new chimero. I don't know. Yeah, well

Is that the first plug-in we'll get from general motors here in the u.s. Oh

because

I'm gonna go with no

But I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a hybrid buick a hybrid buick is far more plausible than a plug in hybrid or an electric chimero

I think at this point in time

Very true very speaking of interesting electric things from china though geely the parent of volvo and poll star recently said

Hold my beer byd and they made a car that charges 10 percent to 80 percent in just five minutes and 32 seconds

32 seconds being the critical mark there. So apparently 15 or 20 seconds faster than the byd that just took the record

This is more impressive though 10 percent to 97 percent. So on a 300 mile range ev you know recovering almost all 300 miles

Only took eight minutes 42 seconds and that thing peaked at 1100 kilowatts

It dropped down pretty rapidly of course still cooking along at 500 kilowatts at 75 percent

Which is faster than anything in the u.s. It dropped down to 350 kilowatts

The peak in a ton of ev is all brand new here in the u.s. At 97 percent

So it was still cruising along faster than

a Hummer ev with the battery

charge was

more than

basically all of our

top speeds

Yeah, I uh

I'm impressed the question I suppose is

How much how much does that actually drive sales in the u.s.

Apparently it does seem to be a big driver of sales in china

Where people by and large don't have home charging and they're really trying to push evs

Into market segments that are different than north america, but it's it is that question of you how important really is it?

so I

Oh boy, where do I start?

I don't love look how fast we can charge it when it goes beyond

Again, what I think is a is a reasonable application

Uh cool to see the tech and in good to see that that'll work its way out over the next couple years

You know put it in a premium product see what it does and then make it more accessible

But if you were going to put in charging stations, would you rather have?

five 1100 kilowatt stations, or would you rather have?

10, you know 500 kilowatt stations, or do you want you know again?

Like how do you want to scale these things? Yeah, if you're really really worried about spacing which I understand then of course

that's that's where that premium is

but

I

Here in the u.s. I don't know if there's any reason to do that

Just put a bunch of stalls in at you know the current 350 kilowatts for the people that'll use it occasionally

And you know in peak times is there a small weight?

um

Or do you have do you have two of these available?

And they activate during peak hours, and that's when you can swing in and zip on through

But but what's the cost right now just in building the infrastructure?

But what's that car now having to to be built for and again?

What's what's the overall use case because that feels like an option that I would immediately skip on the order sheet

If I could give me give me the big battery

You give me the powerful engine give me all the features

I'll skip the the super super super fast charging because I don't need to pay for

I think I I don't think I would skip it somehow the question in a way is

You if you have the 1100 kilowatt chargers

You could push twice the number of cars through per hour as a 500 kilowatt station

Is the station twice as expensive?

You know perhaps could be but the physical constraints are not

I would hope not but I wouldn't bet on it

um

The physical constraints though are definitely cut in half

So in an average gas station type situation

You could push the same number logically roughly of cars through

A navy charging station like this as the average gasoline or diesel pump could push through so we're talking

You're getting to that stage versus having to be parked for half an hour and having

You know only two cars per hour go through there if you're lucky

It is an interesting question

Especially given the relationship that Volvo and Polestar have to geely that you know

I wonder how long it really is going to be until we get some of this tech through to the more conservative brands Volvo and Polestar

Uh for north america in europe

Yeah

Um, I mean it won't be coming to north america soon soon

I don't imagine especially because we're talking about the companies that don't currently sell cars in the united states

Not that there's no affiliation with like you said Volvo and Polestar, but there's no byd. There is no geely

these are

And again our infrastructure isn't built for it. So you know, we're talking about switching over to na cs

Which could also be a limitation to this

But if we're all switching to na cs

Uh, let's get I'd say get more of those plugs out on the road before we start putting the super super super fast versions

Of those plugs that again will only be accessible by the brand newest car

Um, yeah, it's just it's just an interesting scale question

Yeah, it's one of those things like if you if you don't build it it will never come though

So what comes first?

I don't want to say mainstream adoption, but relative adoption of wireless level 2 charging or 1000 kilowatt dc

fast charging

I I think higher higher current

I think higher current dc charging is more likely to come the wireless charging

Is an expensive play thing an expensive novelty

I just don't think that has much of a place in

In more budget conscious EVs, especially

Which would be required to reduce the cost and and and increase the likelihood that you would start to see public

wireless charging infrastructure

In that way the the Porsche system is the new

Standard for this the one that they use is a universal standard. So theoretically other vehicles could use it

Um, but it's it's pretty darn expensive though the whole thing and it adds weight to the vehicle which decreases efficiency and

It is it self less efficient to charge

than a

A connection, you know wired connections. That's the question

Also less efficient mind you is our dealer network, which is our next topic. This this one struck me as interesting

Apparently the nonprofit the international center for law and economics answered the question that I have wondered

Which is exactly how much does a dealer network cost you as a consumer when you buy a new vehicle?

And they have an answer for the average $50,000 new car in america. It's between four and five thousand dollars

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean

everything here costs money and

That's not necessarily four or five thousand dollars is going directly into them, you know the the dealer's pocket

But it's the cost of operation and it's one of the reasons we have all of these dealers in the first place

Because especially when a manufacturer is getting spun up, let's say back in the day

They don't want to take on this enormous cost of having to now sell their cars on their own

You know, it's not a world of of digital access like it used or now like it was

So you had to have somebody else sell the car for you. That's that's why stores exist

Yeah, it's interesting where this goes. So basically the fact that dealers carry inventory

So you can choose from the selection. Oh cars there rather than ordering and waiting for it to get delivered or ship

That cost is around a thousand to eleven hundred dollars of the total

Advertising and other costs related to actually shifting the metal. That's about sixteen hundred dollars

And then staff and rather rest of the overhead is somewhere between 1200 and 1900 with others

amounts floating in there elsewhere

But it's a it's a pretty sizable chunk of change that this adds to the cost of a new vehicle

Which actually goes back to uh tesla interesting thing

The markets used to be really marveling at tesla's margin

And I always said hang on a minute guys the margin at bmw in russetes is intrinsically more impressive

Because if the car company here

Is is getting a margin of I don't know 15 to 18 percent

Which is pretty normal in the luxury segment and the dealer network is getting a 10 percent margin here

That total is a really impressive total margin

And when you look at the the amount of money made on a bmw buy everybody in the chain

From bmw through to you getting a bmw

It's it's nearly 30 percent margin there between the dealer and the

Of the manufacturer and that's way more impressive than than tesla's margin

You have to remember that tesla is the dealer and the car manufacturer

so

It is an interesting twist here, but it also is an impediment to affordable vehicles to be honest

yeah, and

And that's what it's not like this drastically drops in price because the car got cheaper, right?

They still have to have it in inventory. They still have to do their advertising. They still have staff

And they're not gonna

They're not gonna take that

Cost from the the less expensive car and just add it to the new one

It's it's all about averages each car is going to average this certain turnover rate and and again

That's that's why you end up paying more

So i'm not saying it's all dealer's fault and and it would be in an interesting world

You go back to where we're now mass producing the the you know the ford model t

Who is selling them if ford kept selling them if chevy is the only one who sold chevy's and and you know

But what does that world look like and I think if that's how it started

We have a very different approach to new manufacturers, right?

The hondas as they come in the key is in the hundays

What does it look like to to start up because the startup cost is so much more and I think we end up with

Less variety less options less competition

So as much as I don't love the dealer network, I think we're only where we're at in some of the positives because it exists

Yeah, it's an interesting question

The dealer network is is tricky in a way to spin up as well even if you do have the resources

I mean just look at genesis and how long it's taking to really stand up

A genesis dealer network in the united states and that's limiting their sales in the us and hunday has got some really huge deep pockets

The reason there of course is because they've got to physically build the dealers and convince people to buy the franchise and

And all of that and get everything approved and and whatnot

It is an interesting question without a finite answer though

um

Our last topic here that I wanted to cover is I don't know if you saw this

Review but geely let edmunds have a hand at their three row plug-in hybrid

Which is an interesting vehicle. So anybody geely that wants us to drive it, you know, you know where we are

Hey at auto buyers guide dot com send us your voice memos and questions

Just he y at auto buyers guide dot com or call us at six six nine eight four two one nine four seven

Again six six nine eight four two one nine four seven and if one of those starts with hey, it's geely trust me

We're gonna get back to you as quickly as we can

But uh on geely's three row plug-in hybrid. This is an interesting twist

because

Going back to some of the hybrid discussions

We just had a moment earlier and some of our earlier conversations on extended range plug-in hybrids extended range evs and whatever you want to call those

The chinese market. I think has sorted this

performance plug-in hybrid out thing a lot better than others

This 1.5 liter turbocharged four-cylinder system that is in this geely is also in

The volvo plug-in hybrid. I mean massaged a lot of course for the volvo in china

But it combines a three speed automatic transmission

With two electric motor generator units and it allows serial operation parallel hybrid operation gas only operation

Higher speed performance improvements and it drives

More like an evy than other plug-in hybrids and i'm forced to just wonder

is

Is the sort of dislike of plug-in hybrid driving

That that some customers in the u.s. Say they have is that just because

There's a lack of research and development and maybe a laziness a lack of development on these systems

Possibly right because it's it's very similar to what we just talked about at the beginning of the show about

You know a high power hybrid system using a planetary gear set

The three speed transmission is more complex than a single speed transmission

But it has huge benefits if you can make it make sense

And so you get instant performance and your low gears you get way more efficiency and your high gear

um

And and then how does it all come together?

You know you and i go back and forth on serial versus parallel hybrids not because of the argument on efficiency

But how they're applied and this one says hey you can do it all

Which in theory as long as those programs are are tuned correctly the software is is keyed in you know

Actually the thing that perked my ear was in gasoline only operation

And my first thought was that has to happen in a very limited sense when you have this much tech on board

But I can see a spot where it does

Do you build it in or is it just say hey, we're we're throwing everything on the table

We're gonna see how it works. So I love this

Again, let's get behind the wheel of this

And see how it works

But what's what's what's the cost?

And and the the efficiency benefit that the consumer is going to get are they willing to pay the cost

For the in theory savings

Or the or the huge performance gains right because people will either pay right to have more fun

Or spend less money like that that's where I think value is found in in general

Well, this tells you the the general cost of things especially in china is that this geely three row ev well plug in hybrid thingy

It's apparently the equivalent of around 25 to 28 thousand us dollars

Even though it's about the size of a pilot palisade, etc

You get 858 horsepower total 130 miles of ev range on the incredibly generous chinese cycle

So probably more like you know 80 90 miles of real world range still pretty decent

41 kilowatt hour electric battery

But but the way that it drives is somewhat ev like in that huge horsepower total

But but then there's the efficiency

Question I think has been sort of solved by the way that this system is put together versus what we're seeing in extended range ev is

because

Since the 1.5 liter turbo can directly power wheels through the automatic transmission

That's how you get to 850 at horsepower total. It's not you know

To nearly 500 horsepower electric motors, which would be expensive. It's this gasoline engine

Driving the front axle when you're commanding all 858 horsepower

So that's going through the mechanical side there whereas the rear motor is basically getting power from

The battery pack in that that acceleration profile

So it it kind of merges the the benefits of both sides to give you more oomph

And allowing you to have a smaller battery

And a smaller front electric motor etc to kind of make that work

No, I think there's like no two ways around it if this dropped here in the us today

It'd be a top seller. We'd be all over it

Like I might even be looking at a three row even though I have no interest in one just because of everything this could do

I may have been shopping on some auction sites and looking at some really high power plug-in hybrids

Right as we clicked record on this

either way

Um, this is still a long ways off from what we'll get here in the us

But there's no reason somebody here couldn't do the same. It just obviously would end up costing a lot more than that

You know $30,000

Yeah, the sad part. I think really is that there seems to be just so little development in plug-in hybrids without the tax incentives that

Especially now. I just I just can't see many companies

Trying for these these really interesting middle grounds

um

Even the upcoming Nissan hybrids the the serial hybrid systems

It kind of sounds like they're backing away from maybe some of their initial plans that that they would have a bigger battery option

And a smaller battery option seems like they're really just gonna be focusing on the hybrid without plug option

Yeah, and I I hate to say it, but I don't blame them again

Especially in this in this economy when you look at the the models that year-over-year

Don't seem to have changed much at all. It's kind of shocking and I'm I'm not

I'm not trying to say it's the dark ages of of automotive development, but everyone's just been put in sort of a

Okay, hold on

We had to be really careful with what we do or don't spend here and

And if we had all this money invested in EVs and hybrids and plug-in hybrids, you know

I'm not even sure how many plug-in hybrid projects had their plug pulled so to speak

Yeah, and we may never know because it doesn't seem like there was this a huge swath of them oncoming

But no, but too geely that's that's certainly an impressive system

Hopefully it's reliable, right? Obviously that would be a thing to consider with complexity comes room for for issues, but

No, definitely impressive

Yeah, my personal hope is that that may be a manufacturer

Like Volvo could get away with that plug in hybrid system

In that that's in china in the uh, believe it's the cross country something rather the wagon basically the plug in hybrid wagon

My my memory is is spacing out on the exact model number of alphabet soup there

but

I think if anybody could get away with a wackadoodle thing like that it could be Volvo

It would have to be built somewhere other than china though. I think

For it to work in the united states and that's that's just a whole different impediment

Yeah, especially because right now where is safe is a really really ambiguous question

And with that we will let everybody uh get back to the rest of their day and we will see all of you next week

Thanks for turning in

What Dealers Really Cost You, The Used EV Flood Is Coming, High Power Hybrids & Minivan Death Traps

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