“Widow maker cars” is a nickname for cars people say are hard to drive and can get you into trouble. It’s not a technical category—more like a warning label based on reputation.
The Mercury Marauder is a vehicle name, but in the podcast it’s mainly being connected to a famous WWII aircraft called the B-26 Marauder. The point is the name “Marauder” and why it’s well known. The discussion isn’t focused on the car’s performance.
The Jensen Interceptor is an older-style grand touring car made in the 1960s. It was designed for comfortable long-distance driving while still being fast. The podcast brings it up mainly because it relates to the term “interceptor.”
This means the engine is mounted in the back, and it’s a six-cylinder design where the cylinders sit opposite each other like a “boxer.” Putting that engine in the rear changes how the car feels and handles.
The 911 is Porsche’s famous sports car model. The podcast is talking about an early turbo version that started production around the mid-1970s. It also notes that 911s already had a reputation for how they behaved on the road.
“Widowmaker” is a nickname for a car that’s known for being risky—like it can get out of shape quickly. The host is saying some cars truly earn the label, while others just get talked about that way.
Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear wheels. A shorter wheelbase can make a car turn in quickly, but it can also make it feel twitchier or less stable when you’re going fast.
This is when the tires are different widths on the front versus the back. Wider rear tires can help the car hook up, but if the front tires don’t match, the car may not turn in as well and can push wide.
Turbo lag is the momentary delay before a turbo engine really “kicks in.” That delay can affect how the car grips the road when you’re accelerating or backing off the gas.
Understeer is when you turn the steering wheel but the car doesn’t rotate enough and instead keeps going straight. It usually happens when the front tires lose grip first.
When you lift off the gas (or brake), the car’s weight shifts forward. That can make the rear tires grip less, which can destabilize the car—especially on wet or fast corners.
“Lift” here means taking your foot off the gas. On some cars, that can make the car shift weight and lose traction, so it can get unstable if you’re going fast or the road is wet.
Term
rear tire did give up their grip
If the rear tires lose traction, the back of the car can start to slide or rotate unexpectedly. That’s often where handling problems turn into real trouble.
Term
weight moving sideways
This is what happens when the car starts sliding sideways. When the tires can’t hold the road, the car’s weight shifts laterally and it becomes much harder to steer back under control.
Term
reestablish
Here, “reestablish” means getting traction back by smoothly applying the gas again. The point is that you have to do it quickly and correctly to stop the car from sliding.
Term
spare wheel back in the nose
Moving the spare wheel changes where the car’s weight sits. On a rear-engine Porsche 911, that can change how stable the car feels, especially when you’re driving quickly on a track.
Topic
two liter Porsche Cup series
They’re talking about a Porsche racing series for smaller, two-liter cars. The idea is that if you see how skilled drivers handle them, you learn how the cars really behave.
“On board” means the video camera is inside the car. You can see what the driver sees while they’re driving, which makes it easier to judge how the car handles.
Locking up the front tires means the wheels stop spinning and start sliding. That usually makes braking less effective and makes it harder to steer, especially on wet pavement.
“Slow in, fast out” means you take it easy at the beginning of the turn, then get on the gas sooner as you straighten up. It helps the car stay stable and get better grip when you accelerate.
“Front to rear” means the car’s grip balance between the front tires and the rear tires. If one end has much more grip than the other, the car can feel unpredictable in corners.
“Air cooled” means the engine is cooled mainly by air flowing over it, not by coolant through a radiator. The host brings it up because it marks a major change in how later 911s were engineered.
“Water cooled” means the engine uses coolant (liquid) to move heat to a radiator. The host mentions it because it’s tied to a big generation shift in the 911.
Term
arrival of
This phrase looks incomplete in the transcript, so it doesn’t clearly name a specific car feature or technique.
Four-wheel drive means the car powers all four wheels instead of just two. That usually helps the car stick to the road better, especially when it’s wet or slippery.
When roads are wet, tires don’t grip as well. The speaker is saying their experience in older 911s didn’t include wet conditions, which can make driving much harder.
Aquaplaning is when water on the road gets between your tires and the pavement. Your tires can’t grip as well, so the car can start sliding or steering becomes unreliable.
This is a very extreme Porsche 911 variant. The speaker is saying it’s so powerful and tricky that it can lead to scary outcomes—like the crash story they’re describing.
A “handling shot” is a photo where the car is shown moving in a dramatic way, like turning hard or sliding a bit. The speaker says the photographer wanted one more shot, which led to the risky moment.
Place
airfield
An airfield is a large open area used for aircraft. In this story, it’s where the photographer wanted a dramatic car photo, away from normal traffic.
A “sideways shot” is a video/photo where the car is intentionally turned so it slides or oversteers a bit. The speaker says it was going well until it suddenly wasn’t.
“Drifted” means the car was sliding sideways instead of gripping normally. The speaker is warning that it can feel controllable right up until it suddenly isn’t.
Term
standard bits
“Standard bits” means the original factory parts. The speaker is saying the car needed replacement parts that were not the usual factory ones.
Term
Michelin have introduced a new cup two tire
Michelin’s “Cup 2” is a type of performance tire meant for aggressive driving. Better tires can make a car feel more predictable when you’re pushing it hard.
Suspension is what connects the wheels to the car and controls how the car moves over bumps and turns. If you adjust it, the tires can stay planted better. In this story, that helps make the car less unpredictable when driven hard.
Term
GO
The transcript says “GO,” but it doesn’t clearly match a standard car part name. It sounds like the host was talking about another modification besides suspension, but the exact word is unclear here. If you replay that moment, you may hear the correct component name.
This is a Porsche 718 Cayman GT4, a car built for track driving. It has its engine in the middle and is designed to feel sharp and responsive. The host uses it to set the stage before talking about how the older Carrera GT can get unpredictable when you push it.
This is the famous Nürburgring “North Loop” in Germany. It’s a very challenging track that tests how well a car grips and handles in lots of different situations. The story says the Carrera GT was driven there for a magazine.
The Porsche Carrera GT is a very rare, high-performance supercar from Porsche. It’s built to be extremely quick and exciting to drive. The podcast mentions it because someone set a standout lap time and others couldn’t come close.
Place
Nordchleaf
Nordschleife is a very famous, very twisty race track in Germany. People use it to compare how fast cars are, especially when talking about tires and handling upgrades.
Swing axles are a type of rear suspension where the rear wheels move independently. The way the axle pivots can make the car feel unpredictable, particularly when you brake hard or drive on slippery roads.
The Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3 (W109) is an older Mercedes luxury sedan. It’s known for having a very large engine for a comfortable car. The podcast brings it up as an example of a standout Mercedes performance model.
The Mercedes 300 SL is a famous older Mercedes sports car. Here it’s mentioned as an example while they talk about how swing-axle suspensions can behave badly.
It’s the part of the tire that’s touching the ground. In a turn, the tire can lean over so the “touch area” shifts toward the tire’s edges, which changes how much grip you get.
The Porsche 356 is an early Porsche sports car. The host is using it as an example of a car that feels stable and predictable in corners when you drive it correctly.
The Chevrolet Corvair is an older Chevy with a very distinctive driving feel. The host is mentioning early Corvairs as cars that were known for being stable in corners when you respect how they grip the road.
Gull-wing doors are the kind that open upward instead of outward. The host is also saying that cars with this style often need careful driving because their handling and braking aren’t as forgiving as modern cars.
Double wishbones are a suspension design that uses two arms to guide the wheel’s movement. It helps the tire stay planted more consistently, which makes the car easier to control.
Trail braking is the technique of continuing to brake while turning into a corner, then gradually releasing the brakes as the car rotates. The transcript connects it to swing-axle behavior: using this modern driving approach can trigger a sudden loss of rear grip.
Rear track is how far apart the rear wheels are. With swing axles, the rear wheel positions can shift as the suspension moves, which can make the car less stable in a corner.
Concept
weight rearward
“Weight rearward” means more of the car’s load is on the back wheels. That can help the rear tires grip again, which is especially important if the rear starts sliding.
The McLaren P1 is a very high-end supercar. In this discussion, it’s mentioned as one of the cars people argue can have handling surprises, even though it’s generally considered impressive.
The Fiat 600 is a small classic car from Italy. Because it’s compact and light, it can feel quick and fun to drive. The podcast is mentioning it as an example of a car that handles well.
The M600 is a performance car mentioned in the podcast as a handling-focused model. The discussion suggests it’s known for feeling good to drive. It’s brought up as part of a group of cars that are praised for their driving feel.
The Dodge Viper is a big, powerful sports car. Here, the point is that in the wet it can feel dangerously unstable, so you have to be much more careful than you might expect.
Even if a car has very wide tires, it can still lose grip in the wet. Tire age and tread condition matter a lot for how safely the car can stick to the road.
Torque is the engine’s twisting force that makes the car pull. In the wet, too much torque can make the tires lose grip quickly, so the car can feel unstable.
They’re talking about Bridgestone tires. Different tire brands and types can grip better or worse in rain, which changes how safe and controllable a car feels.
Milbrook is a test track in the UK. It’s where cars are driven hard in controlled conditions so people can judge handling more reliably than on normal roads.
They’re talking about Toyota’s MR2 sports car, specifically the second generation. The key idea is that some people think it handles badly or feels tricky in the wet, even if it can be great in dry conditions.
Non-assisted steering means there’s no power help from the car. You have to do more of the work with your hands, which can make the car feel harder to control when it’s moving around.
The Lotus Elise is a small, lightweight sports car with the engine mounted behind the front seats. The “S1” means the early version, and the host is saying it can feel great in dry weather but gets very difficult once the wet grip drops.
“Geo” here means the car’s alignment and suspension setup—how the wheels are angled. A more aggressive setup can make the car feel sharper, but in the wet it can also make it easier to lose grip and harder to get back under control.
On a race track, the pit lane is the area where cars pull in for service. Here it’s being used to describe coming back to the pits after something went wrong on track.
This is about the car’s electronic helpers that stop the wheels from spinning too much and help keep the car pointed the right way. They’re especially useful on wet roads, where it’s easier to lose grip.
This is a high-performance BMW M3 that uses a turbo engine. The point here is that modern safety electronics help keep the car under control when the road is slippery, like in the wet.
The BMW M4 is BMW’s high-performance version of the 4 Series. The host is saying that in bad weather it can feel scary because the engine’s power comes on suddenly and the tires can lose grip without much warning.
“Turbocharged torque” means the twisting pulling force from a turbo engine. On slippery roads, that sudden surge of power can make the car harder to control.
The differential is what sends power to the wheels. “Differential settings” means how that power-splitting behavior is tuned, and on slippery roads it can change whether the car feels stable or starts to slip.
DCT means dual-clutch transmission, a type of automatic that shifts quickly using two clutches. In wet weather, quick gear changes can make the car’s behavior feel more abrupt and harder to predict.
Brake traction is how much grip the tires have when you slow down. On wet roads that grip can disappear quickly, so the car may start to slide without much warning.
Car
Cerberus Speed 12
The Cerberus Speed 12 is a very rare, extreme sports car. The hosts are talking about it as an example of a car that might be powerful and exciting, but could also be hard to control or not fully engineered for everyday-friendly behavior.
Peter Wheeler is referenced here as the person who drove the Cerberus Speed 12 and gave a strongly negative verdict on owning one. In this context, his opinion is being used to frame the car as potentially dangerous or poorly suited to normal ownership.
Car
TVR V8S
The TVR V8S is a British sports car from the late 1980s with a V8 engine. The host is saying that, when they tried to push it hard, it felt dangerously unstable—more like an aero/overall stability problem than just “the steering is too loose or too tight.”
A top speed run is when someone tries to drive as fast as the car can go in a controlled way. It’s often used to see whether the car stays stable at very high speeds.
Place
Norbert Bolt
Norbert Bolt is the place the host mentions for their high-speed attempt. They’re saying the car felt too unstable there, so they stopped pushing it.
Car
TVR T350
The TVR T350 is a British sports car. The host is mentioning it because they’ve driven it and are talking about how TVRs feel—how easy they are to control and whether they seem “snappy” or scary.
Car
TVR Camira
The TVR Camira is an older TVR sports car. The host brings it up because they’re talking about how TVRs can feel easier to drive than people assume, and how traction control changes the experience.
Throttle pedal travel is the physical distance the accelerator pedal moves from idle to full throttle. Longer travel is often used to make the throttle response more gradual, which can help drivers meter power smoothly and reduce abruptness.
Term
traction was very rarely a problem
“Traction” means how much grip the tires have on the road. The speaker is saying that in their experience, the car usually didn’t spin its wheels or lose grip.
Term
60 times
“60 times” is a drag-racing measurement of how quickly a car gets off the line. The idea is that suspension tuning can help the tires grip better right at the start.
The Ferrari 348 is an older Ferrari with a V8 engine. Some people say it doesn’t handle as well as you’d expect for the brand, and that’s why it comes up in discussions about “bad handling.”
Oversteer is when the back of the car starts to slide more than the front. The host is saying the car can begin sliding and then suddenly spin.
Term
spin without warning
“Spin without warning” means the car suddenly turns sideways and rotates quickly, with little time to react. It’s the kind of behavior that makes a car feel unsafe when you push it.
Bedford is a motorsport venue in the UK where drivers test and evaluate cars on track. Here, the host says they went back to Bedford with multiple Ferrari 348s to compare whether the handling behavior they’d experienced was consistent.
The Renault Clio V6 (first generation) is a special, V6-powered version of the Clio that many people find hard to control when you push it. The host is saying it can start sliding and then suddenly spin, which is scary if you’re not expecting it.
Person
Tom Walker
Tom Walker is mentioned in connection with racing (via TWR). The host is using that racing link to highlight how notable the Clio V6’s handling reputation was.
In the UK, a “B-road” is a smaller, secondary road. “Classic British B-road” usually means twisty, narrow roads where driving skill and car handling matter a lot.
The Renault Clio Trophy is a track-focused Clio variant (often associated with one-make racing) tuned for sharper response and more driver engagement than a standard road car. Here it’s contrasted with a Clio V6 experience to highlight how different Clio setups can feel dramatically different on the same road.
The Ferrari F12 TDF is a special Ferrari built to feel intense and challenging to drive. The point here is that it’s “scary” on purpose, because Ferrari wanted that kind of driver experience.
A skid is when the tires lose traction and the car starts sliding. It usually happens on slippery roads, like wet pavement or snow/ice.
Term
CT off
“CT off” means turning off traction control. Traction control helps prevent wheel spin and sliding, so turning it off makes the car easier to lose grip.
“Cup Two” is a performance tire made by Michelin. It’s great for fast driving, but in wet or slushy weather it may not grip as well as winter or all-season tires.
This is a Ferrari grand tourer with a big V12 engine that revs hard. The hosts are saying it feels thrilling but can also get tricky quickly if you push it.
LIVE
Welcome back to the intercooler podcast, everybody, the podcast
powered by car finance specialist JBR Capital. This is
episode 323. Dan Proser, Andrew Frankel and Jez Medinger
with you here this week, the full compliment. We're talking
about widow maker cars. Bit of an unsavory term, isn't it?
Widowmaker. But it's it's not our term. It's a handy sort of
catch all for what is it Andrew cars with a reputation for
being a bit tricky, bit spiky. Yeah, I think that's
exactly it. Cars that for whatever, well, I mean,
there are two cars which are just known as the widow makers,
aren't there? And we'll be getting on to those. But this
podcast is about all cars that deservedly or otherwise, and I
think that's an important point to make, have a reputation for
one reason or another being tricky desire to drive and
therefore, most likely to render your other half. Well, in this
case, husbandless, but there's no reason why they couldn't be
widow makers as well. No. Or anything. So yeah, that's what
we're that's what we're going to be talking about today.
If you if you Google do Google image search for widow maker
cars, I reckon 90% of the cars that appear are from the same
mark. Yes, they are. It's not just for the same mark, but from
the same model, essentially. Yeah. And it makes sense where you
think the weight is in the in those particular are you
giving away jazz? Yeah, no one would have guessed interjected.
Do you know where the term widow maker comes from? Is it some
sort of fighter jet thing or but I mean, there's there's a film
I think it's called K 14 the widow maker. It's about a
submarine, isn't it? There is a movie called that but apparently
the term stems from aviation and two particular planes. There
was the B 26 Marauder in World War Two, which became famous for
the saying one a day in Tampa Bay because they used to crash so
close to the training bay there. And then the Germans had one as
well. They had the Luftwaffe's Lockheed F 104 Starfighter,
which was called der Witte von Macker, which obviously made a few
widows too. So aviation was where it comes from originally.
So that's an American aircraft that the German Air Force was
running. And it was the Germans who coined that that that term
for it. The Starfighter. Have you ever seen a Starfighter? I
haven't. No. Oh, my goodness. Go just go just after this board
go go and Google a Starfighter and just look at it and just try
and figure out how the thing even flies. I mean, it is one of
the most beautiful aircraft that's ever existed. But it
essentially doesn't have wings. I mean, the wings are so short
and so so stubby. Have you ever seen the film of the right
stuff, the Tom Wolfberg? I haven't. Oh, okay. So there's a bit
it's all about breaking the sandbar in Chuck Yeager in space,
but there's a bit at the end where Chuck Yeager goes up into
space. I think it was actually a prototype Starfighter. And he
loses control of it at 104,000 feet. And you can't get out at
104,000 feet. So he has to stay with it as it is in a flat
spin. So it's got no forward motion at all. So the thing's
never going to fly again. So he has to stay with this thing for
about 70,000 feet as it just tumbles out of the sky. It's
but that was one which didn't make his wife, Glenis, a widow.
But yeah, if you look at look at a Starfighter and you'll see why
I got that name. I just did. It's bizarre. The wings are little
stubby things, aren't they? Yeah, but isn't it cool? Not a
chance would I go up and just imagine what the roll rate and
that would be. Unbelievable. It was an interceptor. Basically,
his job was to take off, go up, shoot stuff down and land again.
Well, good. So we've started on airplanes. I think we're going
to do a couple of motorbikes because jazz is here. We've
mentioned submarines. So should we do a car? Andrew, come on,
let's give us car number one. Okay, well, shall we shall we
just I mean, shall we just deal with the rear engine flat six
elephant in the room and just just go through the 911s that are
on this list? Okay, I think the first 911 to
attract this term was probably the first the original 911
turbo. So the car that came out I was shown in 1973, but I think
it went into production in 74, the 930 turbo as is. But even by
then, 911s had a reputation for being tricky. And this is why I
said at the top of the show, why I kind of wanted to bunk or I
want to separate the cars that are widow makers from the cars
that merely have the reputation of being widow makers. Because I
don't think that I think that 911s of the 911 turbo era, so i.e.
the mid to late 70s and early 80s are much more tricky to drive
than really early 911s. Really early 911s have short wheel
bases and they did have this reputation for throwing people
off off the road. But the real problems started to occur to me
when you used to get these huge disparity between front and
rear tire widths that never happened in the early days, and
particularly with things like turbo lag. And the reason you got
huge disparity for the front and rear tire widths was really to
quell this reputation for these car flying off the road, they
wanted to give them huge amounts of grip and huge amounts of
traction. And so they put a huge amount of rubber at the back
where the engine was where the weight was. But what that meant
was the cars would just understeer and understeer and I've
driven these cars and they do they understeer huge amount. And
that's one problem. But the real problems tend to arrive when
you try to do something about the understeer. And what would you
traditionally do for cars understeering when you'd lift
off, wouldn't you? Well, if you're going quite fast or if the
road was wet, or you weren't delicate about it, that's when
those sort of cars could get you into trouble because you'd get
this forward weight transference. And when those rear tire did
give up their grip, and an enormous amount of weight
started moving sideways. That's when you had to be really
quick and accurate. And essentially, not just get off the
lock, but most importantly, get back on the power, reestablish
grip at the rear end by, by getting the rate with the weight
rear wheel again, because otherwise, yeah, bad things can
happen. So I think that was the first one. But goodness me, it's
by no means the only one, is it?
No, not at all. Not at all. So I mean, we've had this discussion
a couple of times before the reputation of air cooled 911s
for being tricky. And of course, there are so many different
versions, so many different generations that you can't say
it's true or it's rubbish. You have to look at individual
models, don't you? You really have to get stuck into the
details. So actually, you think that a very, very early 911
the 1960s car, little skinny tires, actually not as sort of
tricky as the reputation suggests.
I don't think I know it. Because I've driven them, I've
raced them. Yeah, you know, I raced one, I sort of dropped
this original Le Mans 2010, the classic. I had an absolute
ball in it. It didn't scare me for a second. The only thing it
scared that scared me about it was you going down the mall
sound straight. I mean, it wasn't massive fast, probably
doing 150. And it was sort of wander around all over the
track. But then we put the spare wheel back in the nose and it
was fine. Yeah. And that was the only problem I had all weekend
with that car. It was it was absolutely good. And you go you
go and watch the two liter Porsche Cup series and the way
people drive those cars. I mean, do you watch someone? There's
some amazing footage of someone driving with a some on board
someone driving one of those around spa and tell me that's a
bad handling car. He'd be dead if he tried to drive a car like
that if it didn't handle beautifully. So yeah, I do
think I think it starts when they started putting a large
amounts of rubber on the car and be so you know, different tire
sizes. So you know, you'd have I don't know, 345
sections difference front to rear on them.
Was that enough then nine leavens of that era with big fat rear
tires? Was that enough to make them a liability or not as
enjoyable to drive as they should be?
I think in some conditions, I can remember in the wet, you know,
they had those very early P seven tires on the time. And I can
remember in the wet, they weren't great. They suddenly the
understeer become much more pronounced. And also they were
prone to locking up their front tires in the wet. That is a
genuine problem with those cars. And you have to make the
distinction between cars that are inherently really difficult
to drive. And cars which are actually okay to drive so long
as you drive them the way you need to drive them. And I think
for most of those nine 11s in most conditions, you just had to
be wise to them. And if you try to drive a G series nine 11
like a catering, you're going to get yourself into all sorts of
trouble. If you applied the general rules of nine 11
driving, which are always slow in fast out. So you minimize the
understeer on the way in and you maximize the traction on the
way out. Then in my experience, most of those cars, but not all
were absolutely fine. If we can come on to probably the car that
to me is the greatest widow maker of them all the 964
turbo, particularly the 3.6 liter form where you had enormous
I mean, absolutely biblical amounts of turbo lag, huge
amounts of grip. And again, this disparity front to rear and
yeah, that car was I've said this on the podcast before, the
biggest change in the evolution of the nine 11 turbo was not from
993 to 996, which it is for all other nine 11s, because that's
when they went from air cooled to water cooled. And they got, you
know, a longer wheelbase, it was a completely new car. With the
with the turbo cars, it was from 964 to 993, both air cooled
cars, but 993 crucially, with both four wheel drive and two
small turbos. So the lag was gone. And you got your traction back.
So and there's a reason for that. And the reason for that was
the 964 turbo, however much of a legend it is these days, and
it is and you pay vast quantities of money for them. They just
were not nice cars to drive. And I know because I was around at
the time when I drove them.
How about a 993 GT2 because that's yeah, same again. Same
again. Okay, so that is a twin turbo car. But again, I mean, the
problem with the 99 that there's a great picture of me very
crossed up in one of those. It was the opening spread of the
first drive that I did for AutoCars in 1995, I guess. And it
just looks like the most epic handling shots. And I just look
like a driving god in it. If anybody knew how frightened I was
doing that. And how lucky I felt to have hung on to it. Yeah, it
was, I mean, that was a tricky handling car. And again, it was
the disparity of front to rear grip in it and the arrival of
because I mean, that was a you know, a they taken the four
wheel drive away, which were obviously for the GT2, which is
a significant thing. There was a greater disparity in front to
rear tire size, obviously different suspension. And, you
know, much more power wasn't much more power. Was it I think it
went for 408 to 432. I think I might be right about that. But
just the way the car was set up. Yeah, that was a difficult car
to drive.
I am, I've never had a problem in an older 911 of any type,
and I've driven quite a few but never in the wet. And always on
modern tires, which perhaps makes a difference. But I
suppose a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. I guess one of the other
details, important details is that these are always somebody
else's cars, always quite valuable. I'm not taking
liberties in these things, you know, I'm sort of I'm treating
them with care and respect, which might be the the biggest
differentiator I suppose. But so I've never had a problem in an
older 911 myself. But I do remember being on a National
Express coach years and years ago, on the M4 on my way to
Heathrow. And it was dark. I remember it was dark. So it was
either very, very early in the morning, or, you know, nighttime.
And I was just leaning up against the window, probably
tired, you know, maybe half asleep. And I just saw, or I
think I saw a 911, definitely an older
air-cooled car. Just it was wet. I see it was a it was winter,
just spinning down the motorway the in the other direction and
into the verge. And it happened so fast. And I was in such a
weird sort of drowsy state that I just I to this day, I don't
know if I saw it happen, or if I somehow imagined it, because
it was such a bizarre thing to see a car rotating down the other
carriageway and into the verge. It was really odd.
If it was wet or icy, you know, a bit of aquaplaning, and, you
know, maybe somebody figures that out and tries to do something
about it. And then you're in the barrier. I don't know. Who
knows?
Yeah, I can well imagine, you know, I might have
dreamt I don't think I did. But that sort of thing must have
gone on in the day in particular.
Should we do some more 911s? I've got more on
the list. Let's not let's not spend this entire thing talking
about nine lines, because a people think we spend too much
time in this podcast talking about 911s anyway and be there
are there are sadly, well, I don't know about your list, but
I've got I've got lots more on my
the in fact all GT2s, pretty much all GT2s have this reputation
until the latest generation of GT2 RS. Certainly the 996 and
997 GT2s had that reputation, more deserved than 996 and 997
in my view. I have particular experience of the 997 GT2 RS
and its widow making capacity, because it tried to make a
widow of my wife. I did. Yes, I did. I had a medium sized
accident in one trying to do a handling shot on an airfield
back in 2010, which I've spoken about on this podcast before. And
it was it was just one of those stupid things where you got a
photographer who really wants a sort of, you know, big dramatic
sideways shot and I've done a few. But he wasn't happy. So he
said, Oh, just one more and give it everything. So I did. And I
sort of drifted this thing past the camera and it was all going
well for him. He's one of those moments down in your level and
talking about where it's all going well until it doesn't. Yeah,
until it's just stopped going well. And you get to that
sudden point when in your heart, you know, it's not coming back.
And I, there was a sort of concrete something or other. And
it's one of those ones where I still don't know whether I was
lucky or not, because I feel lucky, because if I'd hit it
square on, I would have destroyed the car and quite
possibly myself. But I was millimeters away from missing it
entirely. And so what I actually, I mean, the car actually ran
perfectly well. Later on the same day, they had to knit back to
the factory and get some bits because that weren't standard
911 bits on it. So I didn't do a lot of damage to it. But there
is, there is some on board footage of it happening. And all
you can hear at the end of it is me just sitting there, screaming
expletives for having completely forgotten. I don't think
you've ever confessed to there being footage of this before.
Well, I don't know where it is. I'm hopeful. Believe me, if I
had it, I would have destroyed it long ago. So I mean, so I can
remember seeing it. I was showing it by someone a Porsche, but
they would have said to me, do you want this footage? And I
would have gone, what do you think, mate? So I imagine they're
stuck in the bin. So I think then there certainly was footage,
I suspect very much. And it may be my drift to say so that
there isn't any more. Come on, let's do another. Let's get off
911s.
Okay, well, I've gone to the Porsche Carrara GT.
Absolutely has to be on the list.
Yeah, yeah, I don't I've I've only ever driven one. I've not
driven it fast enough because it wasn't my car. And the
circumstances wasn't right. Right. So I never drove it in
such a way that I could get it. I mean, are they meant to be
really spiky?
Particularly on as they were stuck in period, yes. And there
were obviously notable fatal accidents as well with them.
Very tricky oversteer that would appear suddenly and not be easy
to control. I think there are two things these days, which
owners do, there's Michelin have introduced a new cup two tire
specifically for Carrara GT that reduces some of that. And I
think some owners are also modifying suspension and GO as
well, which helps. So if you drive a well sorted Carrara GT
now, as Chris Harris did recently, and went skidding
around an airfield, or not an airfield, maybe it was a
scary, controllable, but still spiky, even, even with modern
adjustments.
Yeah, those cars certainly have a reputation. Like Andrew, I
mean, we, we, we did it on the same day. Same car. And I mean,
it felt lovely to me, just sort of really sort of pootling
about and enjoying the gear shift and the occasion and the, you
know, the engine, amazing engine. But certainly, I've heard
countless times before from people who have spent much more
time in them, that they're gorgeous until you're starting
to push the limits a little bit. And then they, they can become
very, very snappy and unpredictable. I remember, this
is a good story, I remember talking to Walter Roll at a,
it was a Porsche launcher at Nock Hill, and he drove me around
Nock Hill in a 718 Cayman GT4, which was great. And then we
pulled over and I just started talking to him. And he told me
this story about a Carrera GT. They had the Nürburgring
Nordschleife, and it was for a German magazine, they got the
likes of Mercedes and BMW and Porsche and, you know, maybe one
or two others to bring their top cars along and a, you know,
superstar driver to go with it. And they would all, all the
drivers would swap cars. And Walter, he told me that he set a
time in the Carrera GT and nobody else could get within, I
think he said 30 seconds or something. And the, the other
guys, I think it was someone like, you know, Klaus Ludwig or
someone proper, maybe, you know, DTM champion, top line racing
driver. And the point being, you know, Walter could match the
other guys in the cars they brought along, but no one could
get anywhere near him in the Carrera GT. Partly that's because
Walter's just a genius, but also he developed that car and
he's very, very familiar with it. But I think that kind of
demonstrates what kind of car the Carrera GT was before those
modern tires and suspension upgrades that you spoke about
Jez, that even astonishingly capable drivers found it a
tricky thing to come to terms with.
Well, those new tires, Porsche released some information, I
think, saying that they were 20 seconds faster round the
Nordchleaf than the original ones. And how much of that? You
wonder if you did that same test again with the modern tires on
with all of those other drivers suddenly now be that much
closer. Maybe, maybe.
So Walter all as well.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
I think they probably would. Okay. Where we go. I've actually
sort of subdivided my ninter categories.
Cool, then.
Cateries like cars that just suffer from terminal understeer
cars with swing axles, cars which are okay in the drive but
become terrible in the wet.
Where do you want to go?
Well, let's do swing out so and can I throw a Mercedes 300 SL at
you, Andrew?
Well, you can, but it would just crash into the one I've
already got my list.
Which is what?
Well, you know, I've got three, I've got three on my list. So
I've already got the SL on this. So there are there are so if
anybody doesn't know what swing axles are, it's a former fully
independent rear suspension. It's quite simple in this design,
where the arms at the back are basically hinged in the middle of
the car. And so they call swing axles because as the back of
the car goes up and down, according to whether it is the
car's accelerating or braking, that's essentially what each
arm does, it swings.
Now, it's great insofar as it's fully independent, you get
massive reductions in unsprung weight because you're not
carting a massive great differential about. And each
wheels movement is not affected by the other one. Where it
becomes tricky is that if you break hard, and the nose pitches
forward, and the axles start swinging, imagine it's like the
sort of the hands of a clock coming together to meet at half
past six, having started the chord to three. What you are
doing is you are not only reducing the rear track of the
car, but you're also changing the you're also reducing the
size of the contact patch of the tire. Because instead of the
tire being flat on the ground, it increasingly goes to its
edges. And that is why cars like the 300 SL, like the Porsche
356, like the early Chevrolet Corvair, had reputations for
being very true. Now I've never driven a 356 absolutely flat
strap around a track. But I can imagine that that's a kind of
car you would have to drive in a very particular way. I have
driven gull wings very fast. And they were actually kind of
okay. But again, it's massively big, but you have to drive it
the car the way the car wants to be driven. And so if you go
into these things, it's like a car with really terrible brakes,
isn't it 90% of the battle is knowing you're in a car with
really terrible brakes. Because then you just don't put
yourself in a situation where that's going to be a problem for
you. And it's the same with the gull wing, you know, you're out
there. I mean, I've chased a couple of millimiliars in not
taking part in a couple of millimiliars in factory provided
gull wings. And you know, these are million pound motorcars you
do not want to damage. And so you drive them accordingly. And
essentially, you're taking even more extreme Porsche 911
approach to them, and just make sure that you're very cautious
on the way and then you just give it absolutely everything on
the way out and you never get yourself into trouble. So yeah,
swing axles were, you know, a great idea. I mean, they became
popular in the 1930s, because it was properly independent rear
suspension. Before people started doing things like double
wishbones back there. But they came with problems, which is why
today there are no cars with swing axle rear suspension.
So how did how would those problems manifest? So let's say
you're driving it like you would a modern car. How what would
your first problem be if you tried to drive it like a modern
car and you came into a corner hot, for example?
Well, if you tried to trail break it into the corner, you'd
just be off. You just be off because you'd lose so much
grip at the back through these twin problems of a narrowing the
rear track and be taking the car off its contact patch. And
again, the only remedy more important than creating with the
steering was to get that weight rearward again, just get back
on the gas. That's the only chance you had. But quite often,
my understanding means never happened to me. Thank goodness,
I've never thrown a car for track with seeing axles because
I've always known it's had some axles and driven it
accordingly. But yeah, I mean, unless you were the sort of
the auto unions of the 1930s, those ferocious middle and
Grand Prix cars with 500 and goodness knows how much horsepower
and skinny little tires, only people of the caliber of new
Velary and Rosemark have handled those because they had
swing axles. And unless you were basically the best driver in
the world, the cars because they could you're either slow or
dead. So yeah, so that's that's why people don't make cars
with swing axles anymore.
Good. Oh,
Blimey. I'm quite intrigued about cars that are fine in the
dry and then suddenly become treacherous in the wet.
Oh, okay. Well, I've got a few. I've also got some cars which
when you sort of research these things, they come up on lists of
cars with really dodgy handling. And you just think I mean, I
found one we said McLaren P one, Saunders, Noble M 600s. These
are fantastic handling cars. Don't understand it. Anyway. So
car Dodge Viper is the absolute prime example. Yeah, I've
mentioned this on the podcast on a previous podcast. There is
somewhere this probably does exist. footage of me doing a
piece of camera while driving a Viper around a wet Goodwood and
having the mother and father of all moments. While trying to
literally, I wasn't even trying to go fast. I was just
presenting to camera. And I turned into the right hand I
called St. Mary's and some people call my name. And I didn't
like that very much. They were terrible in the wet and massive
tires. They would have been firestones or good years, I
guess, but you know, 30 year old technology, huge amounts of
torque, massively fat, probably not much tread on them. Very
unsophisticated. And yeah, they were horrible. And no, that
was that. No, that was just everything. That was just that
was just total incompetence. Yeah. Another one I don't have
experience of this because I've driven one and I've driven
plenty of them in the drive and never in the wet Jaguar X2 2020.
But that has certainly has the reputation and I know people who
I, you know, respect who have driven in the wet to know that
this is this was a proper issue. And again, you know, to 20s
these days have all got modern tires on them. But back in the
day, done lots of bridge stones. I mean, I thought in the
drives actually to 20 was a fabulous handling car. I mean,
when we did the original road test back in 1992, we spent
three days with one. And we were on the test track at
Milbrook and we were honking over our, you know, favourite
Welsh mountain roads. And it was they were just brilliant in the
drive, but apparently proper handful in the wet. And the other
one that's on the list is the second generation MR2.
Yeah, Toyota.
Yeah, they've got a reputation, haven't they?
They do. Yeah.
And is that is that that one?
Um, yes and no. I think they got, I think what happened was car
magazine, and if I am introducing anyone here, I
apologize, I don't intend to. I think what happened was that
car magazine ran a cover story or a big story basically saying
that this car was a really bad handling car and that you need
to be very careful with it. And I'd gone and driven the car,
gone to the launch and skidded it about a bit and just not had
any of those problems. It did have quite slow, non assisted
steering. So it did take quite a lot of collecting up. But I
didn't feel there was anything inherently vicious about it
until I drove one in the wet. And then so I think in the dry,
I don't think the reputation is necessarily deserved in the
wet. Absolutely.
Can I throw a slightly surprising one into here? And I think
perhaps anything mid-engined and sharp and a sharp steer could
potentially fall into that beautiful in the dry tricky in
the wet. But I have had an experience in my S1 Elise around
Donnington in the pouring wet. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. And it's a
absolutely delightful car in the dry. And you can have the
tail out a little bit in the wet. But once you get past
whatever number of degrees it is, it's gonna you're not
getting it back. And I think part of this is exacerbated a by the
geo you're running. And I'm running quite aggressive geo on it
and the S1 but in itself anyway is already snappier than the
later generations of Elise. And the other thing is tires, you
can't get tires for them that have any kind of, you know,
you've got a very limited selection of tires and none of
those tires are good in the wet. So when you've got slightly
tricky cars to fit modern tires to, that's also another
problem that's going to exacerbate whatever in built
weight balance problems you might have to. So what was
specifically your experience? Did you find yourself
trundling down a pit lane in a grassy car?
I certainly found myself trundling back into back into the
pits with more grass on the car than it should have had.
Absolutely correct. Yeah. Yeah. No, I span twice that day. I'm
happy to admit it. And both times caught me out and came from
a place where, you know, there were times when you're like,
I've come in too hot, I've done something silly, it's going
alright, fine. I cocked up. Both of these just came out of a
moment and gave me what felt like no chance to recover. Yeah.
So let me share one then, because it fits into this
tricky in the wet category. And by the way, as an aside, I
count myself really blessed to have had my, you know, the first
20 years of my car journalism career in what I would call the
modern era or the traction and stability control era. Because
if I'd been doing this 20 years beforehand, driving, you know,
particularly some of the cars Andrew's been talking about, I
undoubtedly would have had some more war stories to share. I
undoubtedly would have chucked stuff at the scenery more than
I have done. It's only because I've mostly driven cars with, you
know, by now quite sophisticated safety nets, electronic
safety nets that my bacon has been saved a few times, but I've
come close, particularly in the first turbocharged BMW M3 and
M4, those sister cars. I remember when they were brand new in
2014, and they were tricky, tricky things. Not nice, not nice,
not nice. And particularly in the wet, really particularly in
the wet, and on a cold day, I remember driving one on a on
Blakey Ridge, up on the North York Moors, on winter's day, you
know, it's probably ambient temperatures freezing or just
above greasy wet road surface. And that road is a tricky road,
lots of undulations. And it was an M4. And my God, it felt like
a liability, that thing, even with the systems fully on. You
would just have moment after moment. And it was really, really
disconcerting and scary, actually. And it was there was
something about the power and the torque delivery in those cars
that sudden unrushing turbocharged torque. And
something about the differential settings and the DCT
transmission, the way it would shift up. It's something about
the I'm sure it's the whole lot of suspension tires. You could
just lose brake traction in an instant with no indication that
it was about to happen. And it was strange in those cars,
because it's not like BMW had only just started turbocharging
m cars, and it wasn't quite sure what it was doing by then it
had done the one m it had done m fives with more power and more
torque and still just two wheel drive. So those those early
those early cars is m three and m fours, the first turbo ones,
they were a handful, they got better over time, they really did.
And they're fine now, the current models, but my God, they
sort of 2014 cars, they've had my heart racing much more than I
would like in the wet, in the wet.
Can I throw? Sorry, Andrew, I've just jumped on you there, but
maybe you're getting in the same direction. Can I just like to
roll TVR into the mix here? Because if ever there was a car,
well, a mark that specialized in just throwing power at a
lightweight car without perhaps the development budget to
engineer things the way the other marks might do, it feels like
there's there's some there's some decent material there, in
particular, the Cerberus Speed 12, which I think Peter Wheeler
drove and said no one should ever have one of these. It's an
absolute liability. I don't know if if either of you have had
any particular experiences.
I think they only made one, didn't they?
They I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, so I think I think this is a good example of a cars where
you know, they may not have necessarily great handling, but
I wouldn't. I mean, I've been quite critical of TVR for all
sorts of reasons over the years. But I've never in terms of the
handling, I might have been a little disappointed by the way
some of them handle, I may have thought that they are much more
impressive in a straight line around a corner. But I've never
felt that they are I've never driven a TVR that I thought was
sort of malevolent, sometimes a bit underdeveloped, perhaps. But
I can't I mean, Dan, you may have a different experience, but I
can't think of. And also, you know, you're talking about some
really high performance motor cars. And yeah, I, you know, so
there's lots of capacity for a small British manufacturer to
get it wrong and to make something which wasn't, there
wasn't nice to drive and could be properly spiky. I've just
never had that from any TVRs. I've never, you know, no TVR I
can think of has ever come high up of my list of sort of, you
know, the best handling cars of the year ever. But at the same
time, I don't think I've ever driven one which is the only
one. Okay, so no, there was one, there was one has come back to
me now. There was the TVR V8S. Okay, so this is like a late 1980s
car, but essentially the old Tamar design from the 1970s into
which they put a V8 engine. And it's one of the cars, one of
very, very few cars. In fact, I'm off hand, I'm trying to think
of another where I've abandoned doing a top speed run on the
Norbert Bolt. And it was, I was only doing 140 something, I
think we're doing 146. But it was so unstable. And that was a
pure aero thing. It was so unstable. And I was really, I
was young at the time, and I was really stupid. I used to do
some ridiculous stuff on that bowl, which makes me shudder
even to think about it. But even that profoundly idiotic me at
the time, recognize that this was, this was not a recipe for a,
you know, a happy end to your day. So I bailed. But that's the
only TVR that comes to me as having something which was
fundamentally wrong with its handling. And that wasn't a, you
know, an oversteer or understeer thing, that was just a pure
aero thing.
Yeah, I've only driven three TVRs over the years. A T350, a
sagorous, and most recently, a Camira, that was a convertible
one, wasn't it?
Yeah, well, most of them, yeah, Tiger Top, Tiger Top that went
in the boot.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And again, perhaps I'm just not driving
them hard enough, because it doesn't seem sensible or whatever.
But I've never had a problem with one. I've never felt like
they were sort of rabid animals just waiting to bite my head
off. I don't get that impression at all. Perhaps it's
different in the wet. Perhaps it's different when you really
start stretching their legs, I don't know. But and they've got
that blackpool traction control, haven't they? That very, very
long throttle pedal travel. They're just, it sort of seems to
make it a bit easier.
They're always set up to be really soft at the back. We always
said that they did that to get them all to 60 times. So yes, in
attraction was very rarely a problem in one of those. Can I
do a couple of cars which just have just bad handling,
inexcusably bad handling for what they are. While I'm not going
to dwell on because I spent so much time telling people what a
terrible handling car that is, which is the Ferrari 348. I
think we all know about that. I can remember Luca de Montesembe
saying some very unflattering things about the 348 when he
came back to Ferrari. And so I think he said something like this
is the, this is just one example of what is wrong with this
company at the moment. But yeah, they would just, they would
just oversteer a little bit and then they would spin without
warning. And I recently, I said recently, maybe four or five
years ago, I went back to Bedford with three different
348s. And I was just really interested to see whether I'd
just been driving them wrong at the time, or whether I'd given
them an unfair press, and they were exactly the same. You get
a little bit of drift on, you think, oh, this is going quite
well. Oh, sorry. And suddenly you're just facing the way you
came. Gen one Clio V6. Yes. Terrible handling car. Unforg-
I mean, TWR, Tom Walker's racing did that car. What were they
thinking of? Who signed that off and thought, oh, well, that's
all right. It was, there wasn't anything right with the way
that car handle. Everything was wrong about it. It was just, it
was so twitchy. I don't know whether they were trying to
follow in the footsteps of, do you remember the original Renault
5 mid-engine turbo? Yeah. They could, they could do some fairly
strange things on you. They were, they were twitchy and
horrible. Maybe they just thought, well, you know, that's in
the blood and we need to do another one of those. But it was
inexcusable. So when they re-engineered the car for the
second generation, they did so many different things to it,
although it was based on the same car, they even, they even
lengthened the wheelbase, just to try and give it a little bit
more stability. And the Gen 2 cars were a lot better. But they
still weren't great. They still were easy to drive. I think
didn't we do something, we put it around a track with a sort of
a front-engine Clio, whatever it would have been at the time
with Trophy or something. And the front-drive hatchback was
quicker than the mid-engine 2-seater.
I remember thinking that when I drove a Clio V6 on a British
B-road, classic British B-road, I was just thinking, I'd be so
much faster down here and have more fun in a Clio Trophy.
Absolutely.
Yeah. I mean, lovely car. I'm very fond of the second generation
car. I think they look amazing and Renault until they sold the
historic fleet. Why would you do that? They used to have a bright
yellow, I mean, just a bonkers canary yellow one on their
fleet, which you had any kind of idea at all. They'd lend you.
Oh, I had some very happy times on that, but it was not a good
car. Another car I want to flag, another Ferrari. I don't know
what to think about this because I'm not sure it's a bad handling
car, but it's a very scary car. So maybe that makes it a bad
handling car. But it's scary because Ferrari wanted it to be
that way. Either of you got any idea where I'm going with this.
F12 TDF.
Correct. Give that man a prize. F12 TDF. It was deliberately, I
couldn't talk to people at Ferrari about this, and they
said, yes, this is a car for people who can drive. And you
have to know how to drive. And if you don't, don't get one. I
can remember, I drove one, it was in January and it was in
Wales. And it was a degree above freezing. And it was wet. And
there was just slush on those mountain roads. And I kind of
knew because of the story I was doing, that we needed to do a
skid in it. And I said to the photographer, right, I'm going to
do this once. And if you don't get it, but
I'm not going to do it again. And I mean, years and I don't know
how many years ago, it's probably a decade later, I
still remember that sense of trepidation when I went into
sort of CT off, and I approached the corner. And I was so I
actually, I think far more through luck than good
judgment, I got it right. And it was a decent looking skid. And
it was again, one of those things where you look at the
camera, you look at the photograph, you think, Oh,
God, that's fantastic. He knows what he's doing. Without any
idea of what's actually going through the mind of the bloke
behind the wheel. And I did that once again, and that was it. I
can remember then driving the car home, even just sort of
driving it home coming off the mountain, you had to be so
cautious. It was on cup two tyres, which is just not what
you want in those sorts of conditions anyway, even when
you're not in a spiky car, and getting home and thinking just
not the privilege of driving that rare and special car or how
much fun I'd had, but just relief. I got it back. That was
it. But we we did drive one few years ago now, didn't we on a
We haven't we haven't even done any three wheelers, have we?
I wanted to throw a plant Robin at both of you. Have you
have either of you ever driven one?
No.
Yes, I have. I drove it so slowly, I was never in danger of
it falling over. I have been in a three wheeler, which has
yeah, been which was briefly rendered a two wheeler, going
around the corner, waving a wheel in the air thing called a
grinnell scorpion, which I understand, which I which I
understand are quite well engineered cars, if cars they
be. And I think this was an early one, and I probably wasn't
being very sensible, but I can remember looking up at the sky
and seeing a wheel up there thinking that's not meant to be
there, and sort of throwing my my my weight across the car on
it coming back down again. So yeah, that wasn't great. But the
Morgan three wheelers I've never had a problem with. I know Mr
Flint off had quite a big problem with one. But I don't know
the circumstance behind that. So I'm not certainly not saying
that was the car's fault. But yeah, anyway, I think we we've
timed out. I think we probably have. Yes. Well, thanks both for
your, your experiences for sharing those your wisdom. A
cautionary tale, I think for all of us, go steady out there
everyone. Thank you all for listening. I will just remind
you all that if you are not yet a subscriber to the intercooler
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appreciate it. Andrew, thank you, jazz. Thank you to all of you
listening. Thanks very much. And we'll do it all again next week.
Can't wait. See you then. Bye
About this episode
“Widowmaker” is introduced as a slang catch-all for cars with a reputation for being “a bit tricky, bit spiky,” often tied to specific Porsche 911 Turbo eras. The hosts trace the term to aviation, then dig into why certain 911s and other performance cars feel dangerous: tire grip changes, turbo lag, lift-off weight transfer, and wet-weather behavior. They broaden beyond Porsches into swing-axle quirks, traction-control limits, and even motorcycle instability—where sudden loss of grip can be unforgiving.
Andrew Frankel and Dan Prosser are joined by Ti contributor Gez Medinger to take on the spiky subject of cars that bite when you least expect it. Unsurprisingly, there might be a 911 or two mentioned.
Use coupon code pod20 at checkout to get 20% off an annual subscription to The Intercooler's online car magazine for the first year! Listen to this podcast ad-free, and enjoy a subscriber-only midweek podcast too. With a 30-day free trial, you can try it risk-free – https://www.the-intercooler.com/subscribe/
