Dive into the world of brakes with Dino Crescentini, co-founder of Dynamic Friction Company, as he unpacks why brakes squeak, differences between ceramic and semi-metallic pads, and how to choose quality parts. The hosts also discuss the rising issue of catalytic converter theft, legislation aimed at curbing it, and the impact on vehicle owners. Additionally, the episode touches on the importance of shocks and struts for vehicle safety and ride quality, plus a quirky note on China banning yoke-style steering wheels for safety reasons. Practical advice and insider tips make this a valuable listen for anyone dealing with brake or suspension concerns.
Cars:Chevrolet C/KFord F-150Honda AccordLand Rover Range Rover
On this episode of WrenchNation, we welcome Dino Crescentini — widely known in the industry as the Godfather of Brakes and a leader at Dynamic Friction Company (DFC). Dino explains the fundamentals of brake pad materials in a way that both technicians and enthusiasts can easily understand. In this episode, we break down the real differences between ceramic, semi-metallic, and organic brake pads—and what those differences mean for safety, performance, noise, heat management, and durability. We also discuss how these choices impact the level of service to the consumer in today’s shop environment, along with the latest legislation that removed copper from brake pads and how that change is affecting modern braking performance.
"we're gonna cover some news a catalytic converter some of you have had your catalytic converter stolen never knew you had one you woke up in the morning and your car was a loud noise like you heard it just obnoxiously loud like what is happening is that my engine is my engine gonna blow your catalytic converter was stolen"
A catalytic converter is a part of your car that cleans the bad stuff from the exhaust so the air stays cleaner.
A catalytic converter is an emissions control device installed in a vehicle's exhaust system that reduces harmful pollutants by converting them into less harmful gases before they exit the tailpipe.
"your catalytic converter was stolen yes crack heads are stealing catalytic converters it's a big problem they get money on the black market for that I will tell you finally finally legislation is easing its way"
The black market is when people sell things they shouldn't, like stolen car parts, to make money.
The black market refers to illegal trading of goods, in this case stolen catalytic converters, which are sold for their valuable precious metals.
"it's gonna go to the House Committee on energy and commerce for what to legislate the preventing auto recycling theft or part this act would give law enforcement tools to trace stolen catalytic converters"
Auto recycling theft means stealing parts from cars to sell them for money, which is illegal and a big problem.
Auto recycling theft involves stealing valuable parts from vehicles, such as catalytic converters, to sell them illegally. Legislation is being considered to help law enforcement trace and prevent such thefts.
"why is that rhodium palladium that stuff is expensive that's precious metals that's up there with gold and silver these guys want it because new cats are expensive"
Precious metals are rare and valuable metals inside car parts that help clean pollution but also make those parts expensive.
Precious metals like rhodium and palladium are rare and valuable metals used in catalytic converters to reduce emissions. Their high value makes catalytic converters expensive and a target for theft.
"why is that rhodium palladium that stuff is expensive that's precious metals that's up there with gold and silver these guys want it because new cats are expensive"
Palladium is a valuable metal inside catalytic converters that helps clean car pollution.
Palladium is a precious metal used in catalytic converters to assist in converting harmful exhaust gases into less harmful substances. Its high market value contributes to catalytic converter theft.
"why is that rhodium palladium that stuff is expensive that's precious metals that's up there with gold and silver these guys want it because new cats are expensive"
Rhodium is a very rare and expensive metal inside the catalytic converter that helps clean the car's exhaust.
Rhodium is a rare and valuable precious metal used in catalytic converters to help reduce harmful emissions. Its high cost makes catalytic converters a target for theft.
"this one goes to my Tesla mafia family no China has banned the yoke style steering wheels you're citing citing safety concerns over their non-round design"
Tesla is a company that makes electric cars. They are famous for new ideas like special steering wheels and self-driving features.
Tesla is an American electric vehicle manufacturer known for its innovation in electric drivetrains, autonomous driving technology, and unique design features such as the yoke steering wheel.
"China has banned the yoke style steering wheels you're citing citing safety concerns over their non-round design so if you're thinking when it comes to the yoke style it's basically like this rectangle yeah side thing yeah a lot of the Tesla people they're like oh I like this one China says no thank you"
A yoke steering wheel is a steering control shaped like a rectangle instead of a circle. Some cars, like Tesla, use it to make steering feel more like a race car.
A yoke steering wheel is a non-round, rectangular or squared-off steering control used in some modern vehicles, notably Tesla models. It replaces the traditional circular steering wheel and is inspired by controls used in high-end race cars like Formula 1.
"fighting it with safety concerns follows the recent ban on flush door handles reflecting the country's stricter stances on automotive features"
Flush door handles are door handles that don't stick out from the car's surface. They help the car look smooth and can make it more efficient.
Flush door handles are door handles that sit flush with the vehicle's bodywork, improving aerodynamics and aesthetics. They often pop out or present themselves only when needed.
"oh yeah BYD is a huge company but I'm thinking like who came up like yoke steering in vehicles"
BYD is a big company from China that makes electric cars and batteries. They sell many affordable electric vehicles.
BYD is a major Chinese manufacturer of electric vehicles and batteries, known for producing a wide range of affordable EVs and leading the global electric vehicle market.
"let's talk about the supply chain a little bit you got manufacturers this is for consumers driving right now they just come into a shop and think we have parts sitting right there it used to be right do you know we'd have a lot of stuff but not anymore"
The supply chain is how car parts and cars get made and delivered to shops and buyers. It includes everything from making parts to getting them to the right place.
The supply chain in the automotive context refers to the entire process of producing and delivering parts and vehicles, including sourcing raw materials, manufacturing components, and distributing finished products to dealerships and customers.
"to restore the suspension we're gonna go with front struts rear shocks and listen before you grill me"
Rear shocks help make your car ride smoother by absorbing bumps and keeping the back wheels steady when you drive.
Rear shocks are shock absorbers located at the back of the vehicle that help control the movement of the suspension and improve ride quality by dampening the impact of road irregularities.
"to restore the suspension we're gonna go with front struts rear shocks and listen before you grill me"
Front struts help keep your car's front wheels steady and smooth out bumps when you drive, making the ride more comfortable and safe.
Front struts are a key component of a vehicle's suspension system, combining a shock absorber and a coil spring into a single unit to support the vehicle's weight and absorb road impacts.
"longevity you know is it gonna go 10,000 20,000 or 30,000 miles if it's a cheaper pad let's it's probably gonna be on the lower end of the scale so that's what I'm saying so squeaks emanate from sort of composition so so then what will happen is it'll get to the point where once you get to the bottom of the pad and you're down to let's say the underlayer you're gonna get a squeak so a cheaper pad will wear out quicker and potential for squeak is gonna happen sooner because you're gonna get to the point where all pads will squeak when it gets to the end of the end of their lives right"
Brake pads help your car stop by pressing on a spinning disc. How they're made affects how long they last and if they make noises like squeaks.
Brake pads are components of the braking system that press against the brake rotors to create friction and slow the vehicle. Their composition affects performance, longevity, and noise such as squeaking.
"let's say you got 40,000 it's got the original factory pads as those pad linings wear if they're not electronic like a lot of Euro vehicles we'll talk about that the squeak that you hear is a metal tab"
Factory pads are the brake pads that come on your car when it's new. They are made to work well for most drivers and last a good amount of time.
Factory pads are the original brake pads installed on a vehicle by the manufacturer. They are designed to balance performance, noise, and longevity for everyday driving.
"like a lot of Euro vehicles we'll talk about that the squeak that you hear is a metal tab that protrudes out from the outer edge of the pad that will start contacting the rotor okay you can just plenty of YouTube videos on it but just know that is what you're hearing"
There is a little metal piece on brake pads that makes a squeaky noise when the pads get too thin. This noise tells you it's time to change the pads.
The metal wear indicator tab is a small metal piece attached to brake pads that contacts the rotor and creates a squeaking noise when the pad material is worn down, signaling the need for replacement.
""...about brakes hardware are the retaining clips and sort of dampening could you touch on that...""
Retaining clips are small metal pieces that keep the brake pads from moving around when you press the brakes, helping your car stop safely and quietly.
Retaining clips are part of the brake hardware that hold the brake pads securely in the caliper. They maintain tension to prevent the pads from vibrating or shifting during braking.
""...about brakes hardware are the retaining clips and sort of dampening could you touch on that we can kind of circle back to this story...""
Brake hardware are the small parts that hold your brake pads in place so they don’t move around or make noise. They help your brakes work properly and quietly.
Brake hardware refers to the retaining clips and springs that hold the brake pads firmly in place within the caliper. These components ensure the pads do not vibrate or move excessively, which helps prevent noise and uneven wear.
""...the hardware actually it's a spring okay stainless steel spring and it's critical that it is stainless steel and it creates a tension that firmly grips the pad into the caliper...""
A stainless steel spring is a strong, rust-resistant metal spring that helps keep your brake pads tightly in place so they don’t shake or make noise.
The stainless steel spring in brake hardware provides the necessary tension to hold the brake pads firmly against the caliper. This tension prevents vibration and noise, ensuring effective braking performance.
"he put the cover plate on but he didn't put the cover plate on flat because there's nubs on the pad that the shim has to go over but he put it on crooked and didn't check his work"
A cover plate is a part that helps hold the brake pad in place and keeps it from making noise.
The cover plate in a brake pad assembly helps secure the brake pad and often includes features like nubs that fit over shims to reduce noise and ensure proper fitment.
"the noise in brakes and they're like I've always used this brand like what's changed so we hit we've been out there all week this week and it's constant"
Brake noise means the brakes make annoying sounds when you stop the car. This can happen if parts are worn out or not working right.
Brake noise refers to unwanted sounds such as squealing or grinding that occur when brakes are applied. It can indicate issues with brake components, installation, or materials.
"you've got very high friction levels in these vehicles and excuse me and so not wanting to give up performance"
Friction levels mean how much the brakes rub against the wheels to make the car stop.
Friction levels in brakes refer to the amount of resistance generated between the brake pads and rotors to slow or stop the vehicle; higher friction materials improve stopping power but can increase noise.
"that's a reality today and again it's happening from OEM on down do you think"
OEM means the parts that come from the company that made your car, not from other companies.
OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer, referring to parts or components made by the vehicle's original manufacturer rather than aftermarket suppliers.
"very fancy shim designs very fancy retraction devices in the hardware or on the pad itself"
Retraction devices help the brakes move back a little bit after you stop pressing, so they don't rub and make noise.
Retraction devices in brake hardware help the brake pads retract slightly away from the rotor when the brake pedal is released, reducing drag and noise.
J chamfers are special shapes on the edges of brake pads that help stop the brakes from making noise.
J chamfers are a specific shape cut into the edges of brake pads designed to reduce noise and improve pad bedding by altering how the pad contacts the rotor.
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Welcome back Wrench Nation always in order to hang out with you mechanical
maniacs I see I saw a bunch of wiper blades up on the freeway your windshield
is streaked and we got rain in the valley and we need therapy let me hear
some trumpets made
we're coming to you from the world renowned East Valley Institute of Technology
I was being serious with you I seen you coming off of Scottsdale 101 whether
you're in the Glendale area Aiden get on here your wiper blades working yes we
got some feedback Adam you get you hear the feedback I do live radio we got
something hey just kick that speaker twice maybe to go away I don't know
all right we'll live with the feedback Wrench Nation if you're new to the show
we're honored to do this thank you feedback's gone excellent Wrench Nation if
you're just joining us for the first time automotive lifestyle show we'd like
to interview guests from all over the world in that in that matter and as well
as we try to give you the straight and skinny under hood sometimes we're not
perfect we're not scientists we're not engineers we are lowly lowly mechanics
Aiden get on here I told the guy today when you move into town you need three
things can you take a guess if you move into Phoenix the first time or Miami or
Vegas what are the three most important things that you think you would need in
in regard to services good doctor good lawyer and a good mechanic look you're
trained man I wasn't expecting you to get that I do want to get the show topic
before we get into news we're really excited we'll cover this from time to
time at least two or three times a year it's a common situation where your
brakes squeak you want to do the brakes you know on your F-150 and like buying a
pair of shoes man there's just so much out there and there's confusion we are
honored and I mean this the godfather brakes is in the studio hanging with us
Dino Cressantini he's co-founder of Dynamic Friction Company I've been
messing around with brakes I don't know since 1970s I don't know he's gonna tell
us he but we are gonna cover on this episode what it is that causes your
brakes squeak the quality levels of of brakes Dino is gonna break down the
fundamentals of all things brakes in a way that look you're a technician
listening I know I heard from you via Spotify or our heart you listen to the
podcast be real how many of you did the brake job you never had a problem and
then you have that one problem squeak and if there's anything that technicians
understand is that oh god this is an easy brake job bam bam bam until you get
the comeback the noise the harmonics and it's not good for your client and they
think little of you how many of you driving right now you've been in oh
brakes cost me X amount of dollars I'm going back two or three times Aiden you
had your brakes done recently not recently but I had them in the past yeah
and have you had problems no not after they got fixed see that's a good job yeah
yeah you pay a decent price you don't you don't have to say exact yeah yeah
brakes and that's the thing we'll get into look I'd go back to like retail
Nordstrom's I can buy a $10 sneaker they're out there right we all know
there's a difference between the price points of what we're paying we're not
saying we have to overpay but we're gonna go through the fundamentals that
magic ceramic what is that that magic semi metallic what is that you've heard
it oh you need semi metallic brake pads oh we're gonna give you ceramic what is
that all mean what are the differences as between the two let's call that the
two most popular regarding safety performance the noise how does heat
manage management work out so we're gonna bring on Dino if you're not driving
Google it people godfather of brakes don't be doing that while you're driving
we're gonna cover some news a catalytic converter some of you have had your
catalytic converter stolen never knew you had one you woke up in the morning
and your car was a loud noise like you heard it just obnoxiously loud like what
is happening is that my engine is my engine gonna blow your catalytic
converter was stolen yes crack heads are stealing catalytic converters it's a
big problem they get money on the black market for that I will tell you finally
finally legislation is easing its way we just moved out of what they call the
congressional subcommittee February 10th it's gonna go to the House Committee on
energy and commerce for what to legislate the preventing auto recycling theft or
part this act would give law enforcement tools to trace stolen catalytic
converters now what does that mean well those cats as we call them they
disappear into the black market they can get three four hundred dollars now why
is that rhodium palladium that stuff is expensive that's precious metals that's
up there with gold and silver these guys want it because new cats are expensive
and they're selling it on the black market this bill would allow the
professional or yourself to win stamp the catalytic converter like you can do
that now but it's official and the big thing I want to read back to you is that
the part act would establish a grant program to allow dealerships because
some of you saying Frank great I have a catalytic converter what is that all
about like do I have to go to the dealer to have to pay to get this stamping this
part act would establish a grant program to allow dealerships repair shops and
other eligible parties eligible parties I don't even know what that means
eligible we said dealers independence alright let's get our salvage yard
people if you go to a salvage yard we love our salvage yards and other
eligible parties Uncle Louis he's got 10 cars in his driveway he's eligible I
guess and they would they would cover some of that expense and that then that
stamped allows law enforcement to track this little lonely cat that's in the
marketplace is it gonna work I don't know I'm gonna bring Dino on Dino with
the dynamic friction catalytic converters you're out of Vegas problem in Vegas so
they still stealing cats up there they're stealing everything including
when I was at that blackjack table but yeah catalytic converters is still a
thing people was doing I bet yeah and that legislation works yeah the bill
would also increase record-keeping requirements anyway it's a practical
solution is what they're saying some of you want to know how many catalytic
converters were stolen let's just say last year Mr. World famous Aiden would
you like to guess how many catalytic converters stolen last year I would say
somewhere in the 1 million range because how often that might happen that's
like the COVID if we're talking like one specific place that's notorious for it
that number is not necessarily out of the realm but if we're just talking in
general a million's way out there but I'll give you that that's in Chicago alone
what are you talking about right see he's got my back yeah approximately 27,000
ish of these cat converters were stolen as reported last year by the National
Insurance Crime Bureau those are serious people those NICB people I'm honestly
surprised it's not way out which actually reflected a sharp decline from
what was in 22 64 64,700 now here's my logic that was like post COVID money was
funny maybe oh I know what it was Dino they were buying the fancy cars right
they were easy targets that's a big drop 64 anyway our feelers government is
working their way through all that remind you to get on a wrench nation dot
TV of course the concourse in the hills we had Peter von Leon that interviews up
of course you missed the show no big deal you can catch it next year but it's a
fascinating insight to what is going on on on that story for Phoenix Children's
Hospital how they're raising money I need to talk to you Aiden you got any
funny weird give me some weird news man it better be weird if not I'm kicking you
out of here so this one goes to my Tesla mafia family no China has banned the
yoke style steering wheels you're citing citing safety concerns over their
non-round design so if you're thinking when it comes to the yoke style it's
basically like this rectangle yeah side thing yeah a lot of the Tesla people
they're like oh I like this one China says no thank you they've had a lot more
wrecks or fighting fighting it with safety concerns follows the recent ban on
flush door handles reflecting the country's stricter stances on automotive
features that's all I got that's all you got so we were it's just it's just their
stance on automotive we stricter than most well they got a lot of EVs they
lead the world oh yeah BYD is a huge company but I'm thinking like who came
up like yoke steering in vehicles that's like reinventing the wheel I guess
that's a high-end F1 cars kind of race cars yeah but if you got a little if
you in Shanghai driving a little $15,000 EV do you really need that I guess
this was a trend that China China is not just going to make a move unless there
was a major safety type issue yeah yeah I don't know that's so we really need
that and I mean could I use that money for pinstriping you know the upgrade for
the yoke give me the pinstriping we got last small in the studio try give me the
company Lance try plus sales try plus sales for all of you listening let's talk
about the supply chain a little bit you got manufacturers this is for consumers
driving right now they just come into a shop and think we have parts sitting
right there it used to be right do you know we'd have a lot of stuff but not
anymore it's not worth it but you represent some really talented manufacturers
of course DFC and then KYB many have heard of KYB shocks and struts yep and we
need shocks and struts in our life could you tell people I'd like to because we
mentioned this we're just throw it out here before we take a break and bring
Dino full-fledged into the whole break topic shocks and struts a lot of people
will go into a garage or service facility a dealer what have you and they you
need shocks and struts and they don't really like why what's the big deal
with shocks and struts and why would I even need something like that it's not
grossly obvious that they're worn out okay unless they're leaking or broken you
know something happened to them they fade out over time and people get used to
that sloppy ride that the vehicle now has like an age match with spring we get
used to that yeah just kind of get used to it right you know so and you know I
also think at the at the shop level it's kind of a bigger ticket it's a
little uncomfortable for the service rider to present replacing your shocks
or struts to somebody when it's not an obvious fix yeah that seems to be this
is so true because consumers think that perhaps like the bedside manner wasn't
there but the fact is if you can say I can make this like new for a fraction of
the cost of a new vehicle you're restoring the ride that's a win for the
consumer hundred percent so what it comes to KYB specifically is what I love
about them is they don't do a good better best and change the paint job or the
packaging they restore the vehicle to its original handling and performance or
they have an upgrade when you get into truck SUV performance stuff yeah this is
awesome we'll probably we'll probably bring on KYB in the future sure I think
it's a big need because look the higher the higher the estimate that you were
presented the more red flags that are raised let's just face it you know that
that beautiful looking mechanic you've been going to for 10 years is giving you
this estimate and that like you trust but if that price is high let's face it
that's the reality how we can as an industry do a better job in presenting
more value about what is needed and kind of make that in plain English because
you're driving right now you're not getting that all you heard is you need
X amount of dollars for repair you need it today and if they if it was really a
bad experience I wouldn't be driving with my children in the back I've heard
that that's like ridiculous what's the ticket on something like that these days
I mean idea I don't know what at the shop I'll tell you what it is yeah so I
mean to restore the suspension we're gonna go with front struts rear shocks
and listen before you grill me and I welcome your Haiti hates get in the
comments I love you because the price can range all right and you pay for what
you get so that's my little ranch nation disclaimer but you know that could be
anywhere from 15 to 2500 1500 to 2500 and hug a mechanic it is the one thing in
the vehicle now if it's all shocks could be less I don't want to scare people and
the price can vary if you drive a European you're put your pinkies up
you're you're already accustomed to it those visits are more money I would
rather people take away not so much oh my gosh that's what it cost as to what
need am I getting from this vehicle where am I gonna be a year or two that's
important I don't think we do a good enough job in this industry on that if
they're gonna be keeping the vehicle it's well worth doing you guys and they
notice it's like it's like fixing your condition in Arizona you notice it
immediately 100% it's one of those services it's that in the decarboned
service that we that people will call back why did you know why did you tell
me about this service like two years ago the decarbon cleaning out fuel
injectors and decarboned intake valve their MPG improves the little tip in
hesitation can go away but when we do shocks and struts people are like wow
that's restoring the ride so yeah we'll dedicate to have KYB on wrench
nation we're gonna come back I'm gonna break down we're breaking it down a
break science maybe some chemistry maybe really what you want to know we're not
gonna get complicated we're gonna keep it basic ceramic cement semi-metallic
organic you hold it I don't even know if there's a still around we're gonna
break down the method of breaks we're gonna try to educate you stay tuned
updates and networking opportunities learn more at pronto net com right on
welcome back wrench nation a big thank you my high desert high desert folks
California Saturday for hanging us hanging with us on the radio and yes
you guys know you can get into the comments wrench nation dot TV love you
show ideas if you got a rock star in the automotive community doing some great
things we got an open mic man we're not fancy a lot of you will experience
a very common type of repair right you get your all changes the air filters in
the cabins and maybe you got a tune up but you know very well you're gonna have
to you're gonna have to get a break job cuz breaks don't last forever some of
you wish that on and depending on the type of driving you're doing you're
saying holy cow I just had breaks two years ago now I need breaks again we've
got Dino Cressantini co-founder of dynamic friction company leader in the
advanced break technology from rotors to brake pads to hardware you name it
Dino it's always an honor to have you come in from Vegas to hang with wrench
nation sure did and I drive farther than that can be with your friend well thank
you brother I appreciate that we love we love our brakes all right so let's go
back into history do before we get into like the break materials and give us a
little history like people want to know Dino why breaks how long you've been
doing it what's the passion that drives you behind all this madness well I've
been doing this since the auto specialty days which was founded in 1982 yes I'm
that old so and then you know that led to after the sale of that company started
a company called centric parts and stoptech which is a performance division
performance and racing and then that was sold and I know that sounds bad but I
can't help it if someone's gonna come come by with a real bell row money what
are you gonna do hey if you're listening man you you got a price to don't
worry everybody's got their price it's all good but I promise this is the last
time I'm gonna be doing this in terms of the break business and so in 2016 got
bored 2015 actually got bored formed with some other guys they are one boys
are one concepts there are performance breaking companies so we merged
together and formed a dynamic friction company DFC and DFC has been around what
now since 2016 I'd say yeah oh wow yeah it's been I didn't realize that yeah yeah
alright let's get to the straight and skinny a lot of people are driving they
have a break squeak some of them are reluctant to come into the garage they
heard breaks and and they hold off on it the brakes go to grind can you before
we get into some of the materials and the differences what is like the number
one cause to new brakes installed and a squeak thereafter because people are
listening now and they said Frank I love you but I was just in a garage I
spent this money and now my brakes are squeaking it and hit it all because I
know there's a lot of variables to that well that could be on one end of the
spectrum it could just be frankly just cheap materials you know there's a lot
of competition out there among break manufacturers to go out and get business
and so inevitably what happens is people you know they get lured in by just a
low cost a low cost a lower cost and at a certain point there you have to take
things out of that friction material in order to get the price down to that price
point so that's one end of the spectrum it's like ingredients and anything like
if you think that like Gucci has maybe Gucci's not a great example let's just
call the high-end leather bags and then the less costly that's an ingredient it's
always about the ingredients right would you say or I mean some of its branding
but I was gonna say you know the branding at the very high end sometimes
it's hard to justify let's say a handbag being five thousand and the a Birken
Birken bag or whatever is thirty thousand you know because the brand so when it
comes to brakes being kind of a commodity item it's it's pretty much what
you get what you pay for again it's so competitive that if something's ten
dollars it's because it has that type of material in there if something's 20 it's
because it has additional materials or or features and benefits that the other
one may be lacking let's talk materials without getting into the whole science of
it but okay I'm listening I'm saying okay well I did buy a lesser cost break
and and what what materials would they take out and how does that relate to me
regarding my breaks is that heat management issues are they gonna what
materials if I'm a cheap if I'm a cheapy guy yeah making this stuff what
material would I take out well it's everyone uses various materials so let's
not talk about what materials are they taking out let's talk about what
features they may be taking out of the what you're gonna feel so basically
every manufacturer knows if they have any help of staying in business they're
gonna make a product that at least will get the car down the road and hopefully
not make noise that's that's the primary thing that they're focused on but
certainly you're gonna give up on performance you're gonna give up on
pedal feel you're gonna give up possibly on wear break distance no well break
distance yeah sure that's what I mean by performance but also where in terms of
longevity you know is it gonna go 10,000 20,000 or 30,000 miles if it's a
cheaper pad let's it's probably gonna be on the lower end of the scale so that's
what I'm saying so squeaks emanate from sort of composition so so then what
will happen is it'll get to the point where once you get to the bottom of the
pad and you're down to let's say the underlayer you're gonna get a squeak so
a cheaper pad will wear out quicker and potential for squeak is gonna happen
sooner because you're gonna get to the point where all pads will squeak when it
gets to the end of the end of their lives right you got that little metal tab
some of your questioning that type of squeak that may have just started for
you let's just assume you've been driving whatever let's say you have a car
that you just made your last payment on and let's say you got 40,000 it's got
the original factory pads as those pad linings wear if they're not electronic
like a lot of Euro vehicles we'll talk about that the squeak that you hear is a
metal tab that protrudes out from the outer edge of the pad that will start
contacting the rotor okay you can just plenty of YouTube videos on it but just
know that is what you're hearing that's one type of squeak that's I would use
as an example hey factory pads go ahead do you know so the other so I was telling
you about the two ends of the spectrum that's one end of the spectrum that
could create a situation where there's noise the other end of the spectrum which
is quality brake pad independent is the way it was installed I mean I got to be
respectful there's a lot of enthusiasts you call me you ask me hey Frank I'm
gonna do my own break job do you think I can get away with it and you just watch
the YouTube video that in seven minutes taught you how to do brakes on your
vehicle and maybe but well let me tell you this so a couple weeks back I was
flown out to Southern California to a very busy previously known as a very
high-end shop okay I'm not gonna name names of course previously known
previously known and so this this the shop owner was you know he contacted and
asked hey could I could they said do you know how to go make this visit it was for
large customers I said of course okay so I went down there and he said hey can
you just see how we're doing break jobs here okay and by the way the problems he
was having he tried everything our products you know competitive products
expensive products OEM products okay oh it going to the dealer and getting pads
from the OEMs and he had a highway to come back for squeaks and he had he just
couldn't get rid of it so I said qualified technicians for the most
maybe okay all right let's use that really loosely here because that was the
case wow these were not what I would call qualified technicians yeah and so I
think partly he's to blame because he wasn't you know vetting these people or
certainly putting him through any kind of you know retraining process that was
certainly required now so I sat through a break job and the guy put on a break
disc completely oiled up without cleaning it okay he didn't clean the contact
surface on the hub so the hub to the rotor interface was full of grime and
grit yeah you gotta take it just for you listening a good a good technician
understands when that rotor comes off that that spindle that hub there is a
lay especially back east I mean you guys we need therapy out here if we see
anything with rust keep keep that stuff on your side of the Mississippi but we
have to take a wire wheel or a brush we have to make sure that mating surface
allows that rotor to contact and contact evenly and so what you're saying is they
skip that vital step along with that yeah so this is this is he had done the
fronts and he hadn't done the rears yet so I'm looking at everything that he did
and didn't do and then I go to the where he put the pad in first of all he
slathered the entire pad with grease I mean on the back of the pad on the side
of the pad with grease with grease and it went around the pad he had some on the
friction surface I mean it was a complete disaster wow wait it doesn't stop
there so so then he installed these pads with the old hardware okay that in
California that's not such a bad thing is if the hardware has good tension and
if it's in good shape let's stop there I want folks to know that because they're
listening for the first time about brakes hardware are the retaining clips
and sort of dampening could you touch on that we can kind of circle back to this
story because I really think it's important with the hardware because the
less quality do not come and hardware should be replaced in most occasions in
most cases yes what what is the problem with hardware over time if we
reuse it what do we risk well the the main thing you do risk is you lose the
tension the hardware actually it's a spring okay stainless steel spring and
it's critical that it is stainless steel and it creates a tension that
firmly grips the pad into the caliper okay so it prevents it from vibrating and
from shaking around and that could be a potential cause for noise as well but
but let's say this the fact that he didn't replace it because actually
checked it eventually it wasn't bad they didn't have any new hardware in any way
so I said okay we're gonna run with this but please take it off and clean it this
thing was full of grime full of grit and he put a new brake pad on there with
grease so now you've got this grease what was the logic behind grease because
that's a known I don't understand it's an absolute no no and something I like to
tell people is is that okay hey you're you're doing a break job and you're
putting all this grease okay so tell me where do you get this inspiration to put
this grease because let me tell you this there are between 50 to 70 million cars
produced on planet Earth every year okay so let me ask you a question how many
do you think come equipped from the factory with grease anywhere near the
brake pad on the abutments on on the hardware or anything like that how many
do you think that is well they look at me and there's going well zero I go yes
so why the heck are you doing it on your break jobs because you think you're
you're you're solving a problem but actually what you're doing is you're
exacerbating a problem that you're you think you're solving you're making it
worse I wonder if the logic for this is the thing about mechanics and
technicians whatnot is they they've been burned one or two times like a repair
didn't go well instead of studying training regrouping the right way they
realized they talked to another technician that says no try it this way
and then it becomes it's it's like a game of telephone it's like a garden not
only it's it's like a yenta barbershop everybody's gossiping about when the
fact is it I mean maybe that's not a good example but I do see in my career
like from technician to technician oh no try it this way yeah and for the most
part I mean it okay they they got their knowledge but until you seek out because
we talk about workmanship problems not necessarily the craftsmanship of the
component that we're installing correct workmanship if we're not educating
ourselves and really stepping back and getting the straight and skinny by
slobbering grease was he a cook maybe he worked a fryer I don't know what dynamic
friction has a bunch of videos on YouTube with this is good you know what
about product or installation tips and all that thing you know yeah because we
will cover some of this stuff but I do recommend thank you Lance YouTube of
course my podcast people you can check it out so going back so you so you
witness this this is a mechanical homicide going down it was it was a
sight to behold I wish I had my camera going so I could put this on YouTube
it was a grease we got reused clips that are dirty so so the set of pads that he
installed where it was a set that we provide because at DFC we were emulating
what the OEMs have done and not just in friction material but also content if
there's any retraction devices on the pads if if there's multiple shims which
can aid in low-speed noise abatement okay so we in this particular application it
was a Hyundai or a Kia or one of those things and we provide a set of pads with
a multi-layer shim in other words it's got a rubber steel rubber shim and then
there's a stainless steel cover and with that stainless steel cover we also
provide a packet of grease not the grease that he used to grease everything
else up that was like axle grease which was a whole other thing too but a
packet of grease that you're only supposed to put between the rubber
steel rubber shim and the stainless steel cover shim not on the outer plate
no underneath it you'll never see it but why is that why we use it because this
is a special formalized high-temp silicone grease what would you it's a
Mali disulfide actually okay so first of all it's
high-temp because it is there at the brake pad but what you're trying to do
here what the OEM intention was was to have at the very end of the stop the
pad slip a little bit because there's a little bit of give inside the caliper
right so for that last five mile an hour you know to zero stop the pads going
to slip back and forth so you want it to slip on the shim and that eliminates
that last bit of low-end low-speed squeak and squeal that could happen so he
did not install that okay but it gets better so so then I say okay well we
obviously we have to redo this there were 10 10 texts around around the car
and so I said okay let me let me where they squirming to where they are everyone
was shaking in their boots it's just like luckily that it wasn't then that
got picked as the one who's who you know has this tech was this mechanic like
defending well why are you looking at me this is where it's done or what he just
didn't know he didn't know he didn't know he didn't know so we went into the trash
got the bag of grease that it came with and then I had him take the pads off so
he took the caliper off took the pads out and I said okay now take the cover
plate off and put the grease on and he was kind of shaking and he put the grease
on because you know he's under the gun and people were filming actually mechanics
don't like to be watched like that yeah yeah they don't like an audience most
don't yeah so so then he put the cover plate on but he didn't put the cover
plate on flat because there's nubs on the pad that the shim has to go over but
he put it on crooked and didn't check his work even then okay so he put it on
and I saw that he put it on crooked and he put it back into the caliper and I'm
watching it and before he started to put the caliper body on it said okay stop
right there did you see what you just did no I didn't see what I did and then I
showed him so that car even though he was trying to do the job right that would
have been a failure that would have absolutely created a problem so so there's
many steps that you got to go through to to ensure a good break job and there's
even more you know this was a sliding type caliper which is you know the body
is on guide pins it slides on guide pins and it didn't slide that that smoothly
the car was about a 12 year old car and even though it's a California car where
it doesn't seal out a grit and grime it's still you know relatively old and so I
said did you which I knew the answer I said but did you take the the guide pins
out and increase the guide pins no no one told me how to do that well if you
don't do that that's a whole other problem that can yeah there's so many
steps to that as a younger ranch back in whatever 1990-91 it was rear brake
shoes with all the springs and the primary and so they took me at least a
few years to get that down front brakes seem to be and I remember this it seemed
to be once you got it you got numb to it you got overly fast with it and
attention to detail fell apart because what happens is well I did five cars
like this you got away with it and got away with it now I have miss Jones and
I got a service manager that's like this is the second time and I'm saying it's
a quality issue when talk about that you visit a lot of shops to do they look
at you and say hey listen we love your product but this is not on us it yeah
yeah and don't tell me how to do a break job I've been doing this 30 years blah
blah blah we hear that all the time yeah yeah but like you were starting to say
break disc brake jobs seem seemingly are seemingly so easy to perform and in
fact in the old days and we can get into a whole other discussion here in the old
days break pads believe it or not we're far more forgiving because of the copper
content which now has been legislated out we got to talk about this is huge you
mentioned this during the brain huge so let's back up copper is a part of the
composition used to be not anymore not anymore it was legislated out as of
January 1st 2025 why why I mean I'll tell you why give us this godfather
straight skinny here yes sir back in 1995 a group of environmentalists were
finding that the fish I think the trout up in northern California were not
spawning at the rate that they were normally spawning at so they found that
they had high levels of copper in their bloodstream and it was affecting their
reproduction reproduction patterns which ultimately is the whole chain of the
kingdom yeah you're talking about down you know upstream and downstream if they're
not there and so forth so so there was you know fighting going on from 1995 to
2010 lawsuits and so forth but by 2010 the automotive industry and the
environmentalists came to an agreement saying hey okay well you guys
agree to take the copper out of the brake pads will give you X amount of
years and we'll come up with a system to identify the brake pads so on every box
of brake pads that you saw from I'd say about 2012 on they had a three leaf mark
on the box and one leaf filled in meant it had unlimited amount of copper two
leaves filled in meant that it had 5% copper which that legislation kicked in
in January of 2021 so from January 2021 you went from unlimited use of copper to
now 5% and I'll get back to what that means and then again the other part of
the agreement the last part of the agreement was that by by January 2025
you got to take it out so the thinking was okay well we have now you know
basically 15 years to get our act together as an industry and take the
copper out and find some suitable replacements can make things work can I
I got to interject why copper though what's the big deal with copper and
brakes copper is the magic material it does everything for it aids in friction
it aids in dissipation it aids in wear noise everything it does it one
material does everything now the downside of copper was is that it's very
expensive just to give you a quick sidebar on that I mean I had to make a
head gasket out of copper for in my shop and a piece of copper six by 24 six
inches by 24 150 bucks a piece of steel that size is 10 bucks so that just gives
you an indication of how much more that material is than steel but it worked
wonders and basically would make a break job you can do a pad slap with a high
copper pad and it's just absolutely idiot proof see this makes sense to me
because I have a lot of my my older generation folks that come in and they
do want to just pad slap can't do that anymore and they say well Frank I never
I never had a problem yeah now maybe the last break job was 15 20 years ago right
but it was in their mindset I don't need all I don't need the rotor I just pads
like throw pads on it that makes sense you just educated me on how I could
present that well so let me give you some relative numbers because I just gave
you percentages of what it had to go to but I didn't give you where they were so
if you take an example of cars that are vehicles that were extremely good in
terms of brake performance and wear and noise and things like that if you look
at the benchmark really is the 2010 series of Chevy 1500 trucks those things
would go 120,000 miles 150,000 miles they'd be half-worn you know it was
amazing so true they would last forever so it worked well the road were perfect I
had a guy he went to another shop because and he was a good client and I kept
telling him you don't eat breaks he says I gotta need breaks I got 90,000 on this
truck you're right and he probably half-worn the proud men were I don't know
what the other shop did but yeah more okay these are over those are over so
check this out so that pad that they use the GM used had 20% copper content
oh wow yeah so it was a very expensive material they were killing all those
fish Jesus who knows how many fish GM killed I mean can we get into like I
don't know we're not scientists but was there some truth did the fish recover
after it's too early to say it's too early to say because it's only been a
year since it's been completely outlawed so that started in California
Washington California expanded to Washington Oregon and then and then it
was like 24 states when it is about 24 states yeah half half the country adopted
it those rules the other half didn't so they didn't blame plumbers they blame
mechanics for the copper well okay here's the other part of the story so
they were taking readings okay this environmental group was taking readings
in the San Francisco Bay right next to the San Francisco Airport now in the
90s aircraft didn't use the carbon-carbon disc that they have today
which is like they're like Formula One brakes back then they used guess what
centered copper breaks wow so you know every time those planes were landing a
huge plume of copper was was you know emitting from the from the wheels and
then of course during a rain would go right there into the bay into the bay
right where they were taking their readings so you know there's an argument
there is to you know how significant was the contribution of automotive brakes
relative to you know aircraft brakes especially we were taking and Frank you
know we call on a lot of shops and guys have noticed even with the loyal brand
that they were buying you know in the last six or seven years sorry I had to
throw that in there for my son Jack he'll be the coolest guy at school that I
did the six seven thing on the radio but people have noticed a problem with
the noise in brakes and they're like I've always used this brand like what's
changed so we hit we've been out there all week this week and it's constant I'll
be honest with you very transparent for me breaks for years was was like oh this
is low risk yeah do it right train the technician buy the quality his car is
not coming back fast forward at least post COVID and maybe absolutely post
COVID like what's going on I mean what's the ratio well one out of ten and if
you're looking to come in my garage I probably just made you not want to come
in I don't care I'm being real we'll own it was that we like jump through hoops
I'll give you all the candy you want to eat and I'll give you a rental car we'll
make it right but this is a common theme and maybe you listening can say you
know what Frank I have gotten my brakes done with my mechanic or dealership and
I have noticed at least post COVID I had to take it back because I had noise and
assuming that the quality was there assuming the workmanship was there this
could be now what is the nightmare for you manufacturers absolutely copper so
now the question becomes do you know what is what took its place copper copper
there is thus far and I actually looked secret ingredient come on give it to
I even looked again last night to see what's going on there are studies going
on all over the world on really what to do and there's no absolute solution so
right now the short-term fix is to bring back steel again iron powder stainless
steel dwarf and then you know bring back you know different types of graphites
aluminum zinc things like that but there's no one single solution whereas
copper performed as I mentioned all these different had all these different
characteristics all these positive characteristics there's no one material
that can replace that so you know what about the J transfer chamfers and stuff
that you're doing like I'll get to that so the the so there's only so much you
could do with materials and the rest there they're just doing with other
tricks they're trying to get the pad away from the rotor upon release of the
brakes for example because without the copper it basically lowered the
temperature threshold of the pads so so they tend to now transfer material kind
of unwillingly at lower at a lower temperature threshold so what that does
is creates a situation where it feels like you got warped rotors but what's
happening is you're getting kind of premature friction transfer and it's
it's transferring unevenly because it can't be controlled people think it's
the rotors and it's actually the brake pads I just had a redo yeah probably
about six months after doing a break job for a very good client and we had
pulsation yeah and by the way this is happening at the OEM level and by the
way I don't know of anyone with with a newer European car and I know because
I've had three in my family between my my wife and my my daughter and you know
my son BMW Audi Range Rover all howling outside of the outside of the
dealer lot well I will say the dealers are saying sorry it's all we can do the
high performance brakes yeah I live with it five series all all like my x3s
all the x series it's we're biting our nails because like there could be a
risk that there's a noise yeah and so what's what's going on there especially
with the European vehicles the European vehicles traditionally had very high
performance brakes so the engineers I'm sure don't want to let go of that so now
you know you've got very high friction levels in these vehicles and excuse me
and so not wanting to give up performance they're risking further noise
problems and they're actually letting the noise problems happen and by the way I
say noise problem it's just a noise people you know it's not it doesn't mean
your brakes are insane if I paid 70,000 if you paid 150,000 because these are
happening on Range Rovers autographs I'm telling you it's yeah yeah or x7s
you know $100,000 vehicles this type of thing so I have to now because I'm a
process procedures guy I've got to have a disclaimer and and short of saying
operating as design you may now after spending a lot of money with me
experience I got to come up with something I'm just telling you that's
that's a reality today and again it's happening from OEM on down do you think
the the chemists will because it's got to be a big problem for huge always
massive GM on the new 1500 truck they've gone through four iterations since
the new one came out in 2021 to try to solve that problem and so to solve it
now they're they're using very fancy shim designs very fancy retraction
devices in the hardware or on the pad itself they're using fancy J chamfers
and slots and everything imaginable wow so not just the chemist but also the
sound engineers are trying to tune those noises out the harmonics harmonics
whatever means possible Aiden you got a question so you're saying that those
sounds are still their factory kind of base right now with how they are why is
that not common knowledge that at this point because we've had what maybe one
or two years of it nope traditionally Dino can correct me if I'm wrong if you
listen if if you got a break job not only am I going to stop beautifully but
they're going to be quiet yes right that's what I'm saying right now that
that noise is back how is that not said when you buy a vehicle that well actually
online and you look on at BMW has a YouTube Porsche has a YouTube that that
are basically saying hey you know we're high-performance brands and you may
hear some break schools at a certain point time I've seen those two I'm sure
there are more but they're starting to come out and say hey that's that's who
we are and as well all right yeah so here's the phrase and this this is
coming straight from BMW BMW typically considers the break squeal on new
vehicles to be a normal characteristic of their high-performance braking systems
there you go often resulting from metallic pad compounds moisture road salt
or the lack of car I would just say I would be is pregnancy-deutsch we have
no more to did the copper it is bro I mean yeah just speak to me well it's
frustrating for the consumer it is it is especially when you know for decades you
know they've never experienced this thing and so it is a new phenomenon people
are working feverishly at it like I said they're not just working on the
friction material they're working on backing plate designs and retraction
devices like I said earlier on so it's it's it's a big big big headache I just
read a this is out of the break report it says that a class action what's the date
on this by 2010 yeah class act oh okay but I'm gonna Honda this was against
BMW of North America M compound brakes cause excessive brakes squeak oh they're
also dangerous now they're not dangerous well this may be salacious or when did
that come out this is from the break report calm we're not knocking your
break report but there was an article what year 2021 oh wow yeah August 8th M
compound break noise suit filed against BMW wow I don't know how legit that is
but there you have it that boy that makes a lot of sense and to remind you if
you are a professional garage owner or service advisor or technician we can sit
relax and explore this beyond radio Lance tell us about the event tomorrow I
don't think it's too late if you're a shop owner to show up give the details
what's going on you know I apologize I don't remember where it's at I do you do
though you have that flyer over there okay yeah well I can just tell you it's
the Italian club it's like 12th Street South of Glendale beautiful facility if
you Jewish don't worry we love you come on down we know you got a little tired
idiot but the point is this is a masterclass on all things brakes for the
professional technician it's tomorrow you can get on to ASA AZ org the
Automotive Service Association or just hit me up at the garage this is kind of
last minute 4805204538 just call me I'll get your details the Italian club
tomorrow evening like six o'clock I think we're eating and do you know you're
gonna go beyond what we can get done here in radio because this is a big
problem yeah this big problem all right I'll be up there for a couple hours you
slated for hours two hours 120 minutes we've got a few minutes left one of the
things I wanted to bring up as well could you educate us on the fact that
many vehicles now we cannot resurface like we used to everything as we now
it's just like pad and I get pushed back from the consumer and some even think
Frankie just trying to make some extra money no could you give us why on my
newer vehicle at least what last eight to ten years so yeah so let me just say
this the the packaging designs that you know the way it fits into the wheel
house the way it works with suspension everything's so much tighter than they it
was let's say 10 20 years well say 20 years ago and beyond so the tolerances
are so much more precise now so it used to be where you could have you know let's
say five or six thousands run out on a rotor okay you can easily turn a rotor
and get that kind of spec now the OEMs are down to one thousands run out and
they're down to about three tenths of a thousandth disc thickness variation DTV so
there's no way you're gonna get that kind of those kind of numbers turning it
on your on your turning machine at least I don't think you can so and they do
that because again the packaging specs are tight the caliper you're just the
tolerances are just that much they're just so much tighter and so when the when
the pads released they're not releasing back as far as I used to you know so so
if it's you don't want it rubbing against the rotor so because that that can
cause the problem where you're I have another question I've seen an uptick in
this symptom after doing a brake job we got less than a minute new brakes pads
rotors client releases the brake pedal ever so slowly as she's coming well
she's breaking she comes to a stop slowly it's my my older crowd it's not
hard on their brakes releases the brake pedal and here's a groan with brand new
brakes didn't have that before did it go away or no we burnished and we could do
a whole top we can do a whole show on burnishing brakes just so you know you
have to break in the brake pad material with the time we have we can't get into
that but you're not done if you just did all the mechanical you gotta burnish
the brake and that's a procedure you can find that at DFC YouTube I'm sure you
have that was it a low metallic pad yes yeah low Mets do that low metallic
that's what do that that's called creep groan it's actually that's what the
industry calls it creep groan every low met pad again from the factory OEM
factories that's what they do so I know how do I how do I get out of that do I
buy a you can get you can use a ceramic type material ceramics but you lose some
of the braking performance but if you're telling me this person doesn't is not
hot rod in the vehicle what kind of car was it that's a little Honda Accord was
it a low-met pad you sure I doubt it I may be wrong maybe semi-met semi-met
well actually I wouldn't have used a low-met yeah you use the low-met yeah
but semi-met can do that as well it's just a new noise for her she just spent
money yeah yeah yeah so if you would have used a ceramic pad that upgrade your
ceramic that low-speed creep groan would have understood no a lot of people
experienced that wow the copper man copper copper geez that's kind of if I
was the scientist you you're calling your scientists in the middle of night hey
you got a resolution you've been at this since last year that's a big deal well
you know the yeah the fish just weren't I know that's a controversy there we we
love our environment but boy oh boy and we love our fish I don't know what to say
about right it's a difficult Dino Crescentini co-founder dynamic friction
you guys for more details give us a website dynamic friction.com excellent
you guys for more details we'll have you back and if you're in Phoenix we're
gonna get over to the Italian club club 12 Street and Glendale tomorrow
afternoon evening six o'clock your professional technician head on over
there we'll feed you we'll talk all kinds of breaks until then never forget to
hug each other and hug a mechanic
only good things sets us free
always our fate
talking about you
cause we're so much just like you
everything we do the same
always that true
girl I love you may reach it
won't we'll not do
for without you
so put your love into this
girl and don't you feel no shit
just let this be
girl I love you may reach it
but she love me
all about you
all about you
cause we don't need no cocaine
all we need is good senses
to rule our brains
only good things sets us free
always our fate
talking about you
cause we're so much just like you
everything we do the same
always that true
girl I need you may reach it
what would I do
for without you
so put your love into this
girl and don't you feel no shit
just let this be
girl I love you may reach it
but she love me
all about you
all about you
all about you
all about you
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