Balanced Braking

Balanced Braking Two Guys Garage Podcast · Jun 2, 2026

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42:26

Car

Dodge Charger

The Dodge Charger is a performance car that comes from the factory as a sedan, but many people modify it for faster driving. A “wide-body” version has wider fenders so the car can fit wider tires for better traction. The podcast also mentions upgraded brakes, which helps the car slow down more safely when driving hard.

Brand

Willwood brakes

Willwood is a company that makes performance brake parts. The idea is that better brakes help you slow down more confidently when you drive harder.

Term

brake compounds

Brake compounds are the material inside brake pads that actually creates the stopping power. Newer compounds can stop better and hold up longer when you drive hard.

Topic

upgrade your car is the brakes first

They’re saying you should improve your brakes before you add more power. More power is useless if you can’t stop safely and repeatedly.

Term

time attack

Time attack is racing where the goal is the fastest lap time. Because you’re pushing hard lap after lap, your brakes have to work consistently and not overheat.

Term

drum brakes

Drum brakes are a brake design where pads press against the inside of a drum. They can struggle when you brake hard over and over because they don’t cool as well as disc brakes.

Term

fluid boil

Brake fluid boil means the brake fluid gets so hot it starts turning into gas. Since gas is compressible, your brakes can feel weak or inconsistent right when you need them most.

Term

calipers

Calipers are the parts that squeeze the brake pads against the spinning brake rotor. More squeeze usually means more stopping power, but the system has to be balanced so it works correctly front to rear.

Term

balance of the car

Brake balance is how much the front brakes and rear brakes share the stopping job. If it’s not set up right, the car can stop unevenly or feel sketchy when you brake hard.

Term

fronts and rears

This is just talking about the front brakes versus the rear brakes. The car shifts weight forward when you brake, so the brakes need to be set up so both axles work together instead of fighting each other.

Brand

Wilwood

Wilwood is a company that makes performance brake parts. People use their kits when they want better stopping power and more consistent braking than stock brakes.

Term

drums

Drum brakes are an older brake design where pads press against the inside of a metal drum. They can get hotter and fade more than disc brakes when you brake hard repeatedly.

Term

discs

Discs are the brake rotors that spin with the wheel. The calipers squeeze pads against the rotor to slow the car down, and discs usually handle heat better than drum brakes.

Term

disc conversion

A disc conversion means changing the brakes from drum style to disc style. Discs usually handle repeated hard braking better, but the parts have to be matched so the car stops correctly.

Term

big breaks

“Big brakes” means putting larger brake parts on a car. The main reason is they can handle heat better and keep braking strong when you stop a lot, like on a spirited drive or track day.

Car

Chevrolet Camaro

The 1969 Camaro is a classic car that a lot of people modify. The point here is that today’s aftermarket can supply more complete, modern-style chassis setups for cars like this.

Term

front clip

A “front clip” is basically the front section of a car—parts of the body and the mounting structure. Hot-rodders used it as a shortcut to change the front suspension/steering setup.

Term

Mustang 2 spindle

A spindle is the part that the wheel mounts to and that helps connect the suspension to steering. People used Mustang 2 spindles as a common donor part when swapping front ends on older cars.

Car

Ford Mustang

The Ford Mustang is a popular American sports car known for its strong aftermarket support and wide range of builds. The podcast’s reference to a “Mustang 2 spindle” suggests using Mustang 2-era front suspension components as part of a custom or swap-style project. It comes up because these older parts are often used to create a simpler, more serviceable front-end setup for modified cars.

Term

rack and pinion

Rack-and-pinion is a steering mechanism that turns the wheels using a gear and a bar. It’s common on modern cars because it gives a more direct steering feel.

Term

front-steer car

“Front-steer” just means the front wheels are what turn the car. It’s the normal steering setup most people expect.

Concept

repeatable

“Repeatable” here means the brakes keep working the same way again and again. Instead of getting weaker after repeated hard stops, the car is designed to stay consistent.

Concept

rest of mod

A “restomod” is an older car that’s been restored, but also upgraded with newer technology. The goal is to keep the classic vibe while making it drive and brake more like a modern car.

Term

numbers matching

“Numbers matching” means the car still has its original major parts from the factory. Collectors like it because it’s more original, which can make the car more desirable.

Term

resto modded

A “resto mod” is an older car that’s been fixed up and upgraded with newer parts. It keeps the classic style, but it drives and stops more like a modern car.

Term

rim

A rim is the metal part of the wheel that the tire is mounted on. Different rim designs can make it easier to fit bigger brakes and can change how much you can see behind the wheel.

Term

aluminum slot

This sounds like a description of an older wheel look—an aluminum wheel with visible openings/slots. They’re comparing older wheel styles to newer ones that show more of the brakes.

Term

craggers

“Craggers” are a type of aftermarket wheel style you often see on older muscle cars. They’re mentioned here because wheel design affects the look and how much brake hardware you can see.

Term

solid aluminum wheel

A solid aluminum wheel has fewer gaps, so it can cover up the brakes behind it. The point here is that newer wheel designs show more of the brake hardware.

Term

brake caliper

The brake caliper is the part that grabs the brake pads and squeezes them against the spinning brake disc. It’s what slows the car down when you press the brake pedal.

Term

rotary

Here “rotary” just means “rotating.” They’re talking about the spinning brake parts you can see (or can’t see) behind the wheel.

Term

four spoke or five spoke wheels

Four- or five-spoke wheels have gaps that let you see more of what’s behind them. That can make the brakes look more impressive and helps people notice the performance parts.

Term

bigger brakes

“Bigger brakes” means the braking parts are larger than stock. That can help the car stop better and handle repeated braking without overheating.

Term

big disc

A “disc” is the brake rotor—what your brake pads squeeze to slow the car down. Bigger rotors can help the brakes stay cooler during hard use.

Term

full kit

A “full kit” means you upgrade the whole braking setup at once instead of piecing it together. That helps everything fit right and work correctly together.

Car

Mustang Fox Body

An “85 Fox body Mustang” is a 1985 Ford Mustang from the Fox-body generation. The takeaway is that brake parts have to be chosen to fit that specific Mustang and your wheel/suspension setup.

Car

Chevrolet Impala

A “62 Impala” means a 1962 Chevrolet Impala. The point here is that brake kits aren’t one-size-fits-all—you need the right parts for that exact car.

Concept

pro touring

Pro touring is the idea of upgrading an older car so it drives and stops like a modern performance car, not just looks cool. It often uses race-inspired parts, especially for brakes and suspension.

Brand

Detroit speed

Detroit Speed is a company that makes aftermarket parts for classic cars. Here they’re mentioned as another brand bringing new, improved tech to the pro-touring scene.

Term

track day

A track day is when people drive their cars on a real race track that’s closed to normal traffic. It’s a chance to push the car harder—especially braking—without street traffic risks.

Concept

aesthetics

They’re using “aesthetics” to mean looks. The point is that looking good isn’t the same as being fast and consistent on a track, where braking matters a lot.

Term

breaking

They’re talking about braking into corners—slowing down late and controlled. Good braking helps you enter the turn at the right speed and can let you pass other drivers.

Term

optimum streetcar challenge

The Optimum Streetcar Challenge is a track competition for street cars. The point is to see which cars and upgrades can perform well when you’re really driving them hard on a circuit.

Car

Chevrolet C5

A C5 Corvette is a specific generation of the Chevrolet Corvette. It’s a common car to modify for track days, including upgrades that help it brake harder and stay consistent.

Term

200 treadwear tire

Treadwear is a number that hints how long a tire’s tread should last. A “200 treadwear” tire usually means a stickier, softer tire that can wear out faster, but it tends to grip better for driving hard.

Term

slick

A slick tire has no tread grooves. That lets it make maximum rubber contact for grip on dry pavement, which is why it’s mainly used for track driving.

Term

down for us

They’re basically saying that as cars get faster, you end up braking harder and more often. That creates more stress on the brakes, so brake technology has to improve too.

Term

arrow

“Arrow” sounds like a specific product or brand they’re talking about for track braking. This clip doesn’t give enough detail to say exactly which part it is.

Person

Austin Barns

Austin Barns is mentioned as the current champion of the Optima Challenge in 2025. The discussion uses his car to talk about brake testing and development.

Topic

Optima Challenge

The Optima Challenge is a competition where cars are pushed hard to prove durability and performance. In this segment, it’s used as a reason to talk about brake and tire development.

Concept

r and d

“R and D” means research and development—basically testing and improving a product. They’re saying the car was used to help develop better brakes.

Term

downforce

Downforce is the “suction” effect that presses the car down onto the track. When it’s higher, the tires can grip harder, so the car can corner faster and feel more stable.

Concept

evolving and elevating what we're doing

They mean that when cars get faster, you can’t just keep using the same setup and methods. You have to keep improving the whole package—car setup and how you drive it.

Concept

aftermarket and street kind of stuff

This phrase is contrasting factory/track-focused racing with cars built using aftermarket parts and driven in street contexts. The key idea is that modern street builds can be developed and tuned to achieve track-level performance, blurring the line between “street” and “race” cars.

Concept

non-sanction racing

Non-sanction racing means the event isn’t run under an official rulebook from a major racing organization. That can lead to fewer restrictions on what cars can do and how fast they can go.

Term

displacement

Displacement is basically how big the engine is, based on the size and number of cylinders. Racing rules often use it to group cars, because bigger engines tend to have more potential to make power.

Term

autocrossing

Autocrossing is a timed driving event on a course made with cones. You drive through tight turns and quick changes, so the brakes and tires get worked hard.

Term

air conditioning

Air conditioning is the system that cools the cabin. The hosts are saying modern car enthusiasts expect it even for performance events.

Concept

test mule

A test mule is basically a “practice” or “prototype” car used to try out new tech. Engineers drive it to see how the brakes (or other parts) behave under tough conditions.

Term

alloys

Alloys are mixed metals chosen to get better properties. Brake parts get very hot, so the metal mix helps them stay strong and resist damage.

Topic

brakes off these rides

They’re describing testing brakes by pushing them very hard repeatedly. That helps show whether the brakes keep working well and don’t wear out too fast under stress.

Topic

Indianapolis 500

The Indianapolis 500 is a major American open-wheel racing event. Mentioning it signals that the person Willwood hired has experience at the highest level of motorsport, which can translate into better engineering and race-focused brake development.

Term

brake pads

Brake pads are the replaceable parts that squeeze against the brake rotor to make the car slow down. Better brake pads can last longer and keep braking strongly even when you brake hard repeatedly.

Car

Ford F350

The Ford F-350 is a heavy-duty truck built to tow trailers and carry heavy loads. If you’re taking a race car to a track, you might use a truck like this to pull the trailer. Because it tows so much weight, the brakes have to work hard, so brake upgrades and testing matter.

Car

late model f 250 or f 350

They’re talking about Ford F-250 and F-350 trucks—the big pickups people use to tow race cars. Since you’re hauling a heavy trailer, you need brakes that can handle long downhill driving without overheating.

Term

hot rod show

A hot rod show is a car event where people bring their modified cars to show them off. The point here is that the same truck might be used for towing to the track and also to car shows.

Term

repeatability

Repeatability means your brakes keep working the same way every time you use them hard. It’s about not getting weaker or inconsistent after repeated stops or long downhill driving.

Term

brakes are overheated

Overheated brakes means the brakes got too hot from heavy use. When that happens, they can stop working as well, so you may have to slow down and let them cool.

Term

rotational mass

It means the weight of parts that are spinning, like wheels and tires. Spinning weight is harder to slow down, so it can make braking feel less effective.

Term

plus size tire

A plus-size tire is a bigger tire than what the vehicle came with. Bigger tires can be heavier and can make braking work harder, especially on long descents.

Term

stock break

“Stock brakes” are the original brakes the truck came with. If you add weight and bigger tires, those original brakes can overheat and stop working as well.

Term

dissipating that heat

When you brake a lot, the brakes get hot. Dissipating heat means getting that heat out; if they can’t, braking can feel weaker because the brake surfaces overheat.

Term

managing the system

It means you have to control how hard the brakes are working and how hot they get. If you don’t—especially with extra weight—brakes can overheat and fade on long downhill stretches.

Place

i70

I-70 is a big highway in the U.S. In some areas it goes through mountains with long downhill stretches, which can overheat brakes if the vehicle isn’t set up for it.

Term

horsepower

Horsepower is how strong the engine is. More power usually means the vehicle can accelerate harder, which can lead to more demanding braking in real driving.

Term

weight

Heavier vehicles have more “energy” when moving, so you have to use the brakes harder to slow them down. That can make brakes overheat faster on long descents.

Term

brake systems

When someone says “brake systems,” they mean everything working together to stop the car. It’s more than just the pedal—there are parts like the pads and rotors that do the actual stopping.

Concept

pro street car

A “pro street car” is a heavily modified car meant to look cool and go fast, but still be driven on the street. People often build them for drag racing-style performance while keeping them usable outside the track.

Term

17 or larger wheel in the front and a 15 in the rear

That’s talking about using different wheel sizes front vs rear. Changing wheel and tire sizes can affect grip and how the car behaves when you accelerate or brake hard.

Topic

Drag Week

“Drag Week” is like a multi-day drag racing event where you also have to drive the car between race locations. That means the brakes have to keep working reliably, not just for one run.

Term

aesthetically look good

Here they’re talking about how the car looks, not just how it drives. On modified cars, the same choices that help performance can also change the appearance.

Term

master cylinder

The master cylinder is the part you push with the brake pedal. It turns your pedal force into hydraulic pressure that makes the brakes clamp.

Concept

match all the parts

The idea is that brakes are a system, not a pile of parts. If you upgrade one piece (like the “big” part) without setting up the rest to work with it, the brakes won’t behave the way you expect.

Term

rotor diameter

Rotor diameter is how big the brake disc is. Bigger discs can help the brakes stop harder, but the rest of the brake system has to be set up to work with it.

Term

caliper piston area

Inside the brake caliper are pistons that squeeze the pads against the rotor. The piston area affects how hard they squeeze for the same brake-fluid pressure.

Term

power brakes

Power brakes use an assist system to make the brakes easier to press. The takeaway is that you still have to match the brake parts so the system works correctly together.

Term

manual brake

Manual brakes don’t have power assist. Because of that, the pedal and hydraulic parts have to be chosen so you can still stop effectively without an overly heavy pedal.

Term

bore size master

The master cylinder bore size is the size of the cylinder inside the brake master. It changes how much brake pressure you get when you press the pedal, which is crucial for getting the pedal feel right.

Term

leverage

Leverage here means how easily the brake pedal turns your foot force into braking pressure. With manual brakes, getting this right helps you avoid a pedal that’s too hard or too touchy.

Term

disc brakes

Disc brakes are brakes that use a spinning metal disc. When you press the brake, pads clamp the disc to slow the car down.

Term

brake fade

Brake fade is when your brakes stop working as well because they get too hot. In racing, that can happen after repeated hard stops, so the car takes longer to slow down.

Topic

drag racing

Drag racing is mostly about accelerating in a straight line. Brakes still matter, but the way heat builds and how you use the brakes differs from road racing or autocross.

Topic

road course racing

Road course racing is racing on a track with lots of turns. You brake hard over and over, so brakes can overheat and lose effectiveness if they’re not set up right.

Term

pistons

The pistons inside the caliper push the brake pads. How big the piston area is affects how hard the pads squeeze the rotor.

Term

torque

Here, torque means the turning force the brakes apply to slow the wheels down. Bigger effective leverage (like rotor size and caliper placement) can increase that stopping force.

Topic

drift

They’re talking about using what professional drifters do as a guide for brake pad setup. Drifting puts brakes through repeated hard use, including when they’re cold and when they heat up.

Term

ambient temperature

Ambient temperature is just the outside air temperature. Brakes behave differently when they’re cold, so pad choice has to work from cool weather up to normal hot braking.

Brand

willwoods

Willwood makes aftermarket brake parts. They’re often used when you want stronger braking than stock, especially if you drive hard or go to the track.

Term

coefficient of friction

Coefficient of friction is a number that describes how effectively two surfaces resist slipping against each other. For brake pads, a higher coefficient of friction generally means more braking force, especially when the pad reaches the temperature range it was designed for.

Concept

heat treating

Heat treating is a controlled heating process used to change material behavior. The host is saying brakes are similar—you should gradually get new pads hot in the right way instead of shocking them all at once.

LIVE

It is the two guys right podcast. He's Kevin bird. I'm really be fired up today, man. Today we're talking breaks

Breaksters seemingly the most underrated thing how many times have we talked to people heard from people?

How many times have we done ourselves where you hop up your car?

Especially as a youngster just getting hot riding you hop up your car get all this badass engine get all these components

I'm gonna make everything go faster, and you quickly realize you should upgrade the brakes to go with all that extra speed

Yeah, man, it's having me a number of times

And I'm stoked today because Kevin we got my break company on today

What your break company? I bet you I had will was running on stuff before you did

I bet you I got three times the wheel would cars out of the shop as you do right?

Like 15 times the number of cars

All right, will what is the only company?

Yeah, they've the only couple you know on the wide-body charger my my Cima car. What's on there?

Wheelwood breaks man. I go to willwood for everything. It's just you know why it's cuz it's the first

Like when I was a kid growing up my dad

I didn't learn a lot from him like I had the luxury of having my dad get me in get me the bug for hot riding

But my dad the one thing he did teach me was I gotta have willwood brakes on it

Gotta have willwood brakes on his 57 Chevy gotta have willwood brakes

And I learned from my dad that was the go-to

Like people if you want a good breaks that was the go-to people you went to I've used him since I was a

Teenager man. I've used him forever. It's it's cool to have him on the podcast

It's cool talking a little history little moments with them in a subject matter that has ever changed it

It's weird because brakes

You think about brakes and how long we've been trying to stop ourselves and go fast

You would think that we have it down, but every man every time we talk to somebody to break your word

They're coming out new compounds. You came goes better breaking components

And really it's a it's a wild environment that stuff goes through man

But we're excited today because we've got Mike hammering on

From willwood and I know dude you do have a bunch of them in there, man

So it's gonna be fun talking and catching up with Mike on all things willwood

Yeah, no doubt and part of the problem with brakes is we keep making more horsepower

I mean they have to keep coming up with bigger and better, right?

We just keep going faster and faster and man if it wasn't for those guys, we'd all be done for right

Yeah, you in the guardrail. We'd be off the cliff like we'd be in the back of the car in front of us. So

Shoo, yeah, that's and learn from all of us

Probably the first thing you want to do upgrade your car is the brakes first and then go to the horsepower

Some of us are junkies. That's a little bit hard to swallow, but it's the bang truth

It is man

and it's something you should consider in in rebuilds when you got what all of us are looking for power performance just that you know

Squeak out every tenth of a second. We can in any, you know time attack or quarter mile eighth mile stuff

You know oftentimes we never really put too much thought into brakes or how we're gonna stop that thing

We've all bought hot rods that were on drum brakes and made a mistake of leaving them

For a moment you find out real fast when you're under

Breaking when your car can't stop when your car can't handle the power you you learn real quick

You got to do a breakup grade man. I mean like yesterday. That's a panic moment

I mean even to the point where right? You're not sized for the heat that you're generating, right?

And you get some fluid boil and then

Another one of those white knuckle. Oh my gosh, am I gonna make it right? Yeah

So we're gonna hit some of these topics man because right?

It's it's easy to upgrade your brakes, but it's also easy to overlook how you should do it, right?

Yeah, just the fronts you did you match right?

How do you match, you know your master cylinder to your calipers and you know a few little nuances, right?

You got to get the balance of the car right so your fronts and rears are stopping proportionally correct

And it's real easy to goof it up especially if you're not doing a kit, right?

It's got a system that's already figured out if you're just kind of onesie twosies man

You can get in some trouble, but we're gonna we're gonna try to dial you in on some of those things and

Some of the latest and greatest that's going on at Wilwood. There's cool stuff, man

Let's take a break. We'll come back and have my come on from Wilwood

He's Kevin Barrett Emily B. And this my friend is the two guys garage podcast

It is the two guys rod podcast he's Kevin Barrett. I'm Willie B. We have our friend Mike Hamrick on you got to got

Willwood breaks y'all heard the name everybody knows Willwood you guys been killing it forever man Mike welcome to the podcast my friend

Thanks for taking the time to talk to us. It looks like I see the big Willwood sign

I know you can't you can't see this, but you can listen to it

But he's in for this huge Willwood disc brakes banner

Well, I saw that as a kid like if you had that in your garage you had a cool piece right there, man

Yeah, so hey, thank you guys for having us on today. We appreciate it

Yeah, they've been the big name forever like you mentioned, you know in the intro there

Just as a younger guy, right like that's quite a while for us and you know, that was like the like upgrade

You know like oh absolutely because you got two stages

You had the you know my car came with drums or it came with some small discs

And I'm gonna get you know from the salvage yard or something, you know

I'm gonna I'm gonna put the larger version on I'm gonna do a disc conversion

And you had the big clunky cast iron caliper on there and and all that bit and then you see a willwood set up

You're like oh

That's like whole another level, you know

That's where you set your targets when you get into hot rodding like someday. I'll be back, right, right?

Yeah, and now it's scary when you go to a hot rod show like everything's willwood, right? Yeah, it's it's like the norm people that finally figured out

I mean, I don't know when did and Mike you probably know the best man. It seems like in my mind a lot of people knew big breaks

But probably the last 12 15 years like it became more of a just an understanding people understood from factory cars from hot rods

Big break big break kids. I think that the evolution of

suspension manufacturers

wheel manufacturers

I mean really like chassis manufacturers. How many people make a chassis for say a 69 Camaro now, right?

Oh, man used to be like 7-eleven is selling them right up the throat

Right by the hot dogs. There was

There was yeah, you know breaks for Camaro's the thing used to be where you'd buy a front clip and it

You know, maybe it had like a Mustang 2 spindle on it for your Camaro

And it made it a a front-steer car with a rack and pinion and you thought that that was like wow

and then now you look at what some of these manufacturers are coming out with a full chassis and

You know, it gets to a point where what I like to explain to people is

Modern cars have a lot of engineering going into the brake systems

Like way more than the 70s 80s 90s 2000s

Really in like 2010 and up they put so much more effort into making the brakes safe

Making them repeatable

Well, those are the same people that end up buying a hot rod

so we want to try to get their experience as close to a new or modern car as possible and

That's really the evolution of where we're at. Well, it's clearly been the trend. I

You know, I was into

You know, the rest of mod the the super performance attract a type set ups long long long time ago

and it always kind of

You know, I scratched my head like why these numbers matching or just restored cars still so popular and pulling the bigger numbers at the auctions

When there's so much more fun when you can put a modern powertrain suspension and brakes

And you have the cool car with the new stuff in it, but yeah clearly the last I don't know 10 years

You're seeing the pipe the price sort of switching where, you know, at least more popular cars that

At the auctions the big auctions are, you know, resto modded. They got the performance in the modern, you know

Creature comforts in there all together

So we're clearly in this like last 10 years where I think most people get it. That's the benchmark, right?

You know what I think helped too

He you kind of breezed over it Mike when you mentioned it

But think about the difference when we were growing up the difference in your rim

Most of us growing up either had that, you know, you had craggers. You had the aluminum slot, you know

Yeah, yeah, or you had, you know, you had the solid remember for the longest time

Variations of the solid aluminum wheel was out, you know, it's actually making a little bit of a comeback

I've seen the cars of late, but remember that full-on solid rim

The brake caliper the brakes the disc the rotary if you will none of that was exposed

None of that was visible or if it was visible it wasn't that visible, right?

But but all of a sudden wheels started becoming a little stronger

They start coming, you know a little better design

You got the four spoke or five spoke wheels and all of a sudden you could see what was behind the wheel

And I think that brought a lot of people

Well, it opened their eyes to you know performance how it looks because most people never put their car on the track

Most people were there just because of the aesthetics of it, you know, and man

It was a game changer for a lot of it's like wow

That's pretty. Yeah, but once you had the the bigger diamond wheels, right?

Then you can get bigger brakes in there, of course

And and now it becomes a flex, you know, or at least early on as Willie said, right?

You couldn't see the brakes or it was all dark and cast iron and rusty in there

And all of a sudden somebody shows up with a big disc

big pop and color, you know

Powder-coated, you know caliper and it's like that's some flex

So it got some attention. So I think everybody's in the know

But I don't think the let's say the detailed education is there, right, right?

How to do it right especially if you're not doing a system approach right a full kit

Well, here's here's something that I like to explain to people is when you come to willwood

Um, we're not going to give you one part number for your 62 Impala or your 85 Fox body Mustang

That's that's not how we do it. What we do is we go through quite a few questions to narrow down exactly

What size wheel how much horsepower and the really important thing is what are you going to do with the car?

you know

And

How much do you want to spend? Are you going more for the aesthetics?

Or are you going for really the performance? Yeah, because we can cover both

But a lot of times it's going to be less

Let it's going to cost you less to be on the aesthetic side of it

Once we get into the performance side and you want it to look nice

Then we start talking about taking a lot of our race technology into it

So that's kind of like where that whole pro touring

market came from

and

You know, thankfully we were right there at the beginning of it

So we're working with manufacturers like Detroit speed that are coming out with stuff that was just revolutionary like

Way different than what everybody else was doing

And as soon as companies like that started doing it

everybody listened

And we followed along and tried to make everything work with what they were building

And that relationship is what what this industry is all about. Yeah, when you say they listened

They actually saw right kyle and and company would get out on a track and smoke everybody and just kick some ass

And everybody saw it and was like, what are you doing? I need to be doing that, right?

Right, what are the details? Kevin you brought up a good point there a lot of people

It was the track day that they realized they messed up because yeah, it's one thing

You know to look good and we talked about aesthetics

It's another thing to be out of the track and continually get you know

When somebody's out breaking you when somebody go harder into the you know into the turn

And and out break you it is such an easy way for people to get around you for you to you know get past

It's a performance shows up there big time and breaks are you know a huge huge part of that

Yeah, I think the optimum streetcar challenge was huge because it really put

A lot of these type of cars

You know there's been a lot of upgrades on you know

C5 Corvettes and c4s and stuff over the years, but like it put a lot of people on the track

all different flavors of vehicles and

It's kind of like you know mma right

uh years ago right you put the

Greco Roman wrestler and you put the jujitsu guy into this guy and it really shows you what you have to do to be competitive

Yeah, man

Yeah, well and and the thing about the optima series. We were we were there

Pretty much boots on the ground at the beginning. Yeah, and we were a big sponsor of that for about 78 years

I've run a lot of those events even on our will with Mustang

So being able to run those events then run with your customers and other people that are running your product

You really start to learn. Hey, this is what we need to do

And this is how much we can get out of a 200 treadwear tire and like I said earlier

It's all of these things that have really become

So much better than 10 years ago 15 years ago tire technology is I mean

You can get a 200 treadwear tire to do almost as good as a slick

On about three laps now and that's correct. That is absolutely crazy. That's

That that's how far

The technology has come

So we've always felt like we've got to keep it up. We got to keep figuring out. What's gonna what's going to be the next

Thing that's going to keep these guys going fast

Well, I left out when I said we keep making more horsepower and putting all the

The pressure on you guys to keep the brake technology coming, but it's like you said it's also tire

It's also now a lot of down for us. So you're seeing arrow come into play. So all these things, right continually

pushing on those brakes so

austin barns the the reigning

2025 champ of o u s c i or the optima challenge

that car

Was purchased by the barns family from a guy named jake rosell

Who used to be local to the ventura area where we are?

and that car

Was used for so much r and d

with brakes going back 89 years ago so

Coming all full circle now that car has got more horsepower more downforce

And if you asked austin and you asked jake, they're both really really good drivers, but austin is

He's a little hungrier when he's beyond a wheel. So he drives a lot harder and

We started off

With him in that car and he's going it's not working

What's because we had it set up for a guy who drove one way. We had to set it up for a guy that's driving a different way

We're used to dealing with that because we're in the race business. So we deal with race car drivers

But when you start realizing that these guys are going as fast as most race cars now

You know, you you you got to keep

Evolving and elevating what we're doing

I'd almost argue that

In the sort of aftermarket and street kind of stuff

Non-sanction racing. We're probably going faster

Right, there's no limit on displacement and horsepower and some of these right categories and right thousand is the new 400 horsepower

Absolutely agree with you, right? So I think

Man, we're building street cars. Uh, they can go on track

That are far beyond most race cars

Yeah, and and I see the evolution of the drivers because

um,

Not all of them

But a fair amount of them that really invest

into doing this

They're going to lessons on driving

Um, they're listening to their peers when they're at the event and at the track

So learn how to drive that car as fast as it needs to go

So they're always that that didn't happen 10 15 years ago. You know you

went to a good guy's event and you parked the car and

You polished it up and you you hung out, right?

But now guys are going to those events and they're autocrossing and

They're going out of their way not to put it on a trailer. They're driving 56 hours to get to an event

And then turning around and driving home

So they want air conditioning and they want all these

Necessities that they're used to having come creeper creature comforts. I call them so spoiled. We're so spoiled as car enthusiasts nowadays

Hey, can you imagine kevin the test environment? Imagine being a quote air quotes here test mule

For a performance slash racing side of the of the braking company

Like your job is to beat the brakes off the car. That's your job. Your mission today is go beat the brakes off that car

What an environment. What a test mule and what a life

You know, you said 78 years as a test mule for brakes. What a job that is man. Wow

Go beat the brakes off a car. Let us know when it fails

We're gonna have to go to a break here in a minute, but I'm kind of curious right in the last 10 years 15 years

What are some of the major sort of learnings and advancements?

That's you guys have really picked up on and you know, sort of upped your game, right?

So you can you know produce the kind of things that uh,

All of us are asking for right that we're pushing to the limits. Yeah, no doubt compounds got to be in the equation

Alloys, um, man all about it. The management is gonna be huge. Yeah, man

We'll put all those on the two new card coming up next. Let's take this break

It's kevin bird. It's willy b and this is the two guys garage podcast

It is the two guys garage podcast. He's kevin bird. I'm willy b

We have a boy mike hammer gone from willwood brakes and before the break we asked, okay

What are some of the things that have you know, you've seen change over the last 10 years and big changes

I'm sure have taken place while you've been in that position

You actually see these things getting tested and people actually out beating on them beating the brakes off these rides

So tell us mike give us some insight. What are some big evolutionary leaps you've witnessed over the last

Decade two decades in this world that you're living in bro

The thing that I've noticed and and so it it dates me, but I've been here

Next month, it'll be 24 years. So I've seen nice

I've seen half of what the company has done because our 50th anniversary is next year and

The thing that I've noticed here at willwood that has really changed

And elevated our business

Is the personnel? Hmm. Um, we've brought on a lot of

Highly skilled engineers that have been in other forms of motorsport and brought that technical knowledge to us

We've brought on people who have

run

IRL race teams for multiple years

That now run our race division

And and this is a guy that has worked for people like a j. Foyd and been a

Crew chief for the indianapolis 500

So by bringing on a lot of these people

They're bringing on a lot of talent

That helps us learn a lot more about

How to make things better

What ways can we manufacture that are going to be better? What materials can we use to make things better?

Um, how can we make brake pads last longer? What compounds?

Are really a better?

a better, um

fit for a certain type of use or racing and

By being able to have that I would almost call it like a think tank

With so many different forms of motorsport. We learned so much there that we bleed it into our street program

So if we come up with brakes for like a uh, which is a huge business for us like

A truck that you would tow your race car to the track with a late model f 250 or f 350 that you've got a

28 foot trailer in the race car inside

Well, you're also probably going to go to a hot rod show and take your hot rod in it, right?

Well, all of those trucks are now coming from the factory with a 20 inch wheel

We have a real performance upgraded package for those trucks so that it doesn't just stop better

The repeatability especially coming down hill is what we're trying to build into all of the systems

And if we didn't have the right people here at willwood working on this stuff, we wouldn't be able to get where we are

Yeah, man. I live in Denver, Colorado

So the hill that you mentioned

We talk about this all the time people get a real reality check

Coming out by 70 out of the rocky mountains several times, you know

And you know, we tow our race cars up and over, you know

The rockies all the time and it's you're right, man

You got to consider not just the race car, but the vehicles towing it because my god

You know how many people we've had had to wait and hold up all the brakes are overheated or the brakes too hot

I gotta get my brakes to cool down. It's a real deal thing out here, man

yeah, and and

Again, those are the things that people a lot of the times overlook

Overlanding guys 17 inch wheels, which I mean by today's standards of 17 inch wheels kind of small, right?

Mm-hmm, but on these, you know jeeps and half ton pickups and new broncos and raptors, right?

Um, especially the overlanding guys. They're adding all of this weight. Yeah and 35 and plus

Plus size tire

So now you've got all this rotational mass all this extra weight and they're still on a stock break

And then they go down the i70 and they go man, I had all kinds of problems. Well, yeah

We're not dissipating that heat. Well, you know, we're not managing the system. So

Man, the evolution of that is just tremendous and and I think you guys nailed it on the head

It's it's really like the last

10 to 15 years that it's really changed. Well, and you know, I'm gonna throw one more in there besides

Tire besides horsepower and arrow is and you just hit it. It's weight whether it's your

Overlanding guy or hey now

My sort of race car has air conditioning and it has all the seats in it and it has

Right the stereo and right. We're carrying around all the stuff whereas

I remember, you know, I started a long time ago, man

You kind of were stripping stuff out to try to get a little faster, you know, like taking the rear seat out

Whatever you could do

But now we're just adding it in because we're making a thousand horsepower 1200 horsepower 15, you know, like so

You can kind of keep more stuff in there let alone talk about truck and towing and overlanding where you're just gear gear gear

You know, so something that you guys hit on earlier that

I wanted to come back around to

So I'm I'm thankful to be married to a woman who was a car girl

In fact, I think she likes cars more than I like cars because I'm around cars all the time

So I kind of get tired of talking about cars

But she loves the automotive industry. That's how we met

through a friend of mine and

You know, she'll she'll be at a especially a hot rod event

And she'll be sitting there in the booth with me

And she she kind of listens to what i'm doing and and what i'm doing is

The same thing is when she walks into her boutique

to buy clothes

The customer walks in

I look at you and say hey you it looks like you like wearing black. Yeah, I like wearing and a half

Okay, and then you always wear those glasses. Yep. I wear those glasses. Okay. Well, let's find something that's going to go with that

Let's look at some pants that'll go with that, right?

Because that's that's the person at the boutique's job is to try to make my wife look good, right?

So it's really turned into that with our business is

Um, when someone walks into our booth

Especially at a place like sima, you know, hey, I've got this this project

I'm going to be using these parts. The first thing I say is, you know

What do you look into achieve out of this? What do you want? So I know you're in goal

Then let's start working on all the components that are going to work well together

So we have to kind of sell a lot of these brake systems all a car

Because you might be building a pro street car

And now the big thing with a pro street car is like 17 or larger wheel in the front and a 15 in the rear, right?

So now and oh man, and I'm also going to do drag week and you're like, wow, okay

So we've now it needs to be beautiful. It needs to aesthetically look good

But you also need to drive this thing however miles it is between tracks, right?

And we have so many of those customers

And it used to be so different because it was just we have this we have that and here's the master cylinder for it and that's it

But now we have all of these other options for them. So I think that that's another draw for willwood is

We're looking to to outfit your vehicle with what you expect to get out of it

Well, I think on that note to me a brake system is kind of like, you know, when we build an engine

You have to match all the parts. You can't just put a you know

8000 rpm cam and then you put the long runner intake and this and that like it's all got a match

So it meet your targets, right?

Yeah, um, and same thing with

With brakes, right? There's a big matching on right, uh rotor diameter caliper

Uh piston area your master, you know, all those things are everything's going to be out of balance

And I got one big part. It looks cool. It's like putting that big cam in

You got this be a monster cam but the rest of the engine's not ready for it and

You get nothing, right? Just doesn't perform the way you want and then on top of that that same customer says

Yeah, it's got a huge cam in it and I want to run power brakes and you go, right?

You can't do that

And they they don't realize it. So guess what I do to them. I say

What type of racing do you watch? They go what and I go look you're a car guy. What kind of racing do you watch?

And I would say nine times out of ten

Because you put them on the spot. They say drag racing

And I go, do you think Ron caps you you think his funny car has power brakes?

It's stopping 4000 horsepower

It's manual brake. We got to make sure we have the right leverage and the right bore size master

Feeding everything and if we if you work with us, we will get all that to work

And so many people go

They're skeptical, but then once they do it they go, I'm so glad I did that because the aesthetic is so much better, right?

Yeah, yeah

So there's there's all of these things that it's almost like you have to be a therapist as well

You say, hey, listen, you have to trust me

Jeff Gordon won three of his four championships on willwood disc brakes

His car is all stopped really well

You gotta trust us. We're gonna get this to work

And then we end up doing it and they go wow, I can't believe how well it works

Is there different compounds between like, you know me

I'm a you know extra great guy and I remember times where I entered roundy round events

And it got really sketchy at the end because initially I didn't do a breakup grade

You know, it had disc brakes on it and I had brake fade like crazy

Not like hitting the pedal, you know at the stripe and you're like, oh my god, I don't have any brakes

You're pumping. You're scared. You're nervous

Is there a difference in in compounds material?

Uh size of rotor. Is there a difference between drag racing? Say road course racing or autocross?

I I I think it goes along

With with what kevin was explaining is

You know for different types of of motorsport

And street cars

You you have to make sure that you match everything

To work with what you're doing

so in a lot of cases

Someone thinks that the caliper being way bigger stops way better

But then I show them that the square area of the pistons is really small

And they go what see we're on a small little rotor like an 11 inch rotor

And the caliper's smaller to fit that 15 inch wheel. We've got big pistons

Because that's how we make up the braking

But then if you've got an 18 inch wheel or a 19 inch wheel and a 14 inch rotor now we have all that torque

So if we put that little caliper way out here, it'd be too much brake and they go

That doesn't make any sense and I go it does once you start running all the numbers on it

It has a so much to do with leverage

torque

And then as far as the brake pad

What I learned from say the guys that professionally drift

What I learned from them may cross over to like an asphalt circle track car

I'll say hey

The guys in the asphalt circle track racing are doing this with this pad

Let's try it over here or even closer drag racing a lot of times

Is what I do with those drift guys because they start off the run and it's ice cold brake, right?

But by the time they get to the end of their runs the brakes are hot

So we have to find a brake pad that's going to be balanced and work in both

you know a

cold

or or

What's the right word like ambient temperature all the way to 76 or 800 degrees?

brake pads are what I feel the

like a fine tuning element

for a for a

Sophisticated brake system, you know

My daily driver's got willwoods on it and I run just our regular old street pad and I haven't changed pads in 30,000 miles on that car

right

But it works great

But if I went out to the track, I I'd have to hop that pad up a little bit because it would not be enough

Friction at the temperature that I needed to run out

I got to run a little bit hotter pad like a pad that's got more coefficient of friction

And it'll take more temperature. So I like to always say that brake pads are like sandpaper

The higher the grit the more street wise they are and then the lower the grit the more racing

They are and more temperature they'll take so I'll tell the customer I go

You're on a piece of 600 now. You're doing some some heavy autocross. We need to get you on a piece of 400 grit

I go, yeah, what do I got to do? And I go, well these pads it's all we got to do. I don't have to change the rotors not yet

No, you're good. Right. You know, so hey

Before we run out of time, can you can you expose how critical it is nowadays for people to and this sounds silly

But the number one fail component we've seen

You know even on the show is people don't do the proper break in

And that's nowadays that is so important

Um, and you know, it's it's something I think a lot of people overlook. Why is that so crucial?

So think of

betting your brake system like heat treating

And if you know anything about heat treating if I want to have an axle rock weld so that it's 53

Rockwell all the way through

The way that I need to do it is not from zero to a hundred. I need to do it

in steps

So what I need to start doing is saturating the system, but not from zero to a hundred. But in steps like

10 percent

20 percent

30 percent

So I start building up the temperature because what ends up happening is

What holds the brake pad friction together?

We call it binder, which is glue. Okay, so that glue needs to get saturated

So that that glue

Gets onto a rotor. That's the same temperature as the brake pad and it's the same temperature as the caliper

And it's the same temperature as the brake fluid

Everything gets to that high elevated temperature of let's just say

500 degrees that that's usually about where it needs to be at on a street car

Now that binder gets onto the face of the rotor

And everything after that once it gets cooled back down to ambient

Everything is going to work so much better. And this doesn't have anything to do with just wool with disc brakes

This is my well

Not my current life, but my first wife with our children having a minivan

Got to bed the brakes in you can't just put

Brake pads in a minivan and say here's sweetheart start start driving it

You need to go through the cycling and get even that that compound that factory compound

To get bedded onto the system. So you're you're absolutely right. It's really important

You're actually taking pad from the pad and you're essentially smearing and bedding it onto the rotor

So you kind of have a pad to pad

Uh friction when you when you hit your pedal when you're properly bedded in when your system is

Forming, right? It's kind of pad to pad. You think it's pad to rotor, but it's a little bit of a misnomer. Yeah. No, it's it's

It's so much and look I can have somebody after a weekend at um, optima, let's say

and let's say that they they're driving

capability is a

65 right

But somebody told them oh you you need that pad that austin barns runs you got to have the most aggressive

So he puts a pad. That's 99.9. Right? It's the most aggressive and it takes the most temperature

So he puts that in the car and then he comes back on monday and he he sends me pictures

And his black wheels turn silver

And he goes mike what's it the car works so good, but dude my rotors are annihilated

Because you aren't driving fast enough. You're not driving hard enough

We got to bring that brake pad down to like 70 percent like you're about 65

We need to be about 70

And then as you elevate your driving we'll move that pad up right

And that is a that's a huge misconception. I love the fact that you tell people they're not driving hard enough

That's so awesome. Uh, all right, man

We're up against the wall man. So how do people follow you and find you give us the handles and the uh the info

Uh for willwood. It's gonna be willwood.com

Uh willwood dis at willwood disc brakes or at willwood racing

Which is a newer handle for us and it's it's really getting popular

And then if you want to look for me, it's at willwood mike

At willwood mike

Heck yeah, man. There you guys have it. It goes quick, man

I hope you guys can pick up a few hopefully tips and if you have any questions concerns problems issues

I'm sure mike the team

Would uh would handle any of those calls and uh would provide you with some some big time answers

Well, that's that's the key with with willwood man. Uh, it's not just get on the website and pick this break

Right, you can call them up and go. This is what i'm doing

This is what i'm gonna do with it and they can help set you up with an entire system

That's all going to be working together and matched for your right for your goals for your dreams

Or you can just check out our show and find out right there and there's weekends on discovery turbo

It's also available on discovery plus check it out there. I think it's our producer scoop senior producer

Justin carter executive producer bob ecker

Yeah, don't forget to check out our website two guys garage and our social everywhere at two guys garage in the two guys garage podcast

Right on mike. Thanks for the uh, thanks for the insight man

And no doubt

We'll have to have you on again. I think you do a whole show on just mistakes

people have made in the

In in the breaking world man and what what penalty and cost they've paid for it

Well, and and let alone just the mistakes i've made

You know, um, I there's been times when

I'll say hey, you know what?

Why don't why don't we try this

Like do you guys know who smitty is chris smith?

I think yeah, I don't know who smith is. Yeah. Yeah smithy and the second gen blue smurf camaro

So he's a very good customer of ours and has become over the years a very good friend of mine

and uh

As soon as he sees a press release about something new he'll say

I got something to try that on can we try it on this and I go

Yeah, let's try it. He says great. Send me some. Let's let's see what happens

Because I want to learn right

And it'll be that monday morning. He goes do not tell anybody to run that that was not good

But we learned from it, right

Amen. Amen. So very very good

Awesome, man

We'll have you back because you have a wealth of information man 50 years almost at willwood 24

I think you said with yourself. Yeah, I'll be I'll be 25 years on our 50th. Man

Yeah, we're gonna have to pick that brain a little bit because there are so many

I mean the systems are simple, but the details are critical. So we'll be back with more guys. Keep following

We'll be back more with mike with willwood

Keep going faster so we can stop harder. See you guys in the next two guys garage podcast

Two guys garage podcast is a production of britain productions for more episodes visit i heart radio

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About this episode

Braking upgrades get treated like a system, not a single part: match master cylinder, calipers, rotor size, and front/rear balance so the car stops proportionally and repeats safely under heat. The hosts connect brake fade and fluid boil to real track and towing scenarios, then explain how modern engineering, wheel design, and pad compounds make performance more visible and consistent. They also cover pad bedding/break-in, and why choosing the right compound and temperature range matters.

200 treadwear tire aesthetics air conditioning (AC) alloys ambient temperature Arrow Austin Barns autocrossing balance of the car bed the brakes

Chevrolet Camaro Chevrolet Corvette Chevrolet Impala Dodge Charger Ford F-250 Ford F-350 Ford Mustang

Original notes

Think a brake upgrade is just a onesie-twosie parts swap? Think again. Kevin, Willie, and Wilwood Engineering’s Mike Hamrick explain why 1,000 horsepower means nothing if your stopping power isn't balanced. From explaining brake pad compounds using sandpaper analogies to detailing the critical heat-cycling process of bedding in your rotors, this episode covers the exact details you need to handle extreme heat, manage rolling mass, and match your brake system to your high-performance goals.

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