Classic Auto Mall - #071 - Stewart Howden with Guest, Chuck Cantwell, Shelby America

This is the Classic Automall Show.

Broadcast from the studios inside the Classic Automall in Morgantown, Pennsylvania, just one

hour west of Philadelphia at Pennsylvania Turnpike Exit 298, featuring nearly 1,000 classic

vintage and barred-fine vehicles for sale under one climate-controlled roof.

Now, here's your host, Classic Automall president and the man with all the toys,

Stuart Houghton.

Good morning, Steve.

Good morning, Ethan.

So, today is January the 14th.

It's our 71st show, although that CarJaw guy's done 2,200 I saw on his website the other

day.

So, it's going to take us a while.

He does five a week.

I think he does five a week.

Wow.

Yeah, I think he does.

He's got everybody on there.

He had Zach Brown from McLaren, and he's had some really interesting Ari Lyandike.

I think Stuart Houghton's on the list.

I think I'm on the list if I ever call him back.

I need to call him until ... Thanks to the Pat Travers Band for our theme music.

We love them, and appreciate them allowing us to play their song, Off Beat Ride, which

is one of my favorites from back in the days when I was a youngster.

Way back.

My goodness gracious, what a busy week we've had here, and an unbelievable week watching

me come.

We'll get into that at Kissimmee 4,200 cars they've got down there.

It's staggering.

I don't know how they process it.

We've been here five years.

We haven't consigned 4,200 cars yet.

They drew it in 10 days.

Amazing.

And then two weeks from now, they're going to Glendale and have 2,000 cars there.

What the heck?

A lot of cars out there.

It makes you wonder how many cars are out there.

If there's that many changing hands and moving through the market, think about it.

Where we are, 75% of our cars come within a 75-mile radius of our place, where we

stand right here.

So think about that.

That's that many cars that are for sale using our format.

It's not to say that those guys aren't going to bear it and meek them and all the other

auction houses and Carlisle and different places you can go.

So there's a lot of cars out there.

So a lot of hidden away treasures in the garages around here.

And we sold quite a few.

We're on a little bit of a roll lately.

We sold 22 last week.

Nice.

Yeah.

So it keeps them busy.

It keeps Kathy honest and keeps her from getting electrocuted.

Keep her at work more often.

Anyway, where might we say we sold cars to last week, Steve?

Yep.

How about...

I'm always going to ask that.

You never do.

You chew me.

I'll cue you.

So last week we sold cars to Pottstown, Pennsylvania, Stanfield, North Carolina, Freehold, New Jersey,

Linwood, Washington, Tom's River, New Jersey, Edinburgh, Virginia, Holland, Pennsylvania,

LaGrangeville, New York, Walbridge, Ohio, Batavia, Illinois, Brownstown, Michigan,

Santa Paula, California, Nottingham, New Hampshire, Gordonville, Pennsylvania, Enoree,

South Carolina, Mulberry, Florida, Phoenix, Arizona, Tracy, California, Millbray, California,

York, Pennsylvania, and Hanover, Pennsylvania.

Wow.

They were everywhere.

Yeah.

13, 14 states.

You are so good at that quick math.

Yeah.

That's so impressive, Steve.

So anyway, if you have a great car to sell, classicautomall.com is our website.

You can reach us there or info at classicautomall.com is our website or our email address or

you can call us at 888-227-0914 and talk to one of our car specialists and they

can help you guide you through the process and the procedure of consigning a car and it's

simple.

There's no upfront fees, no monthly fees.

We only get paid when we sell, when we perform.

So we're kind of like real estate agents, except it's cars and no admission to come in and

see the collection as well too.

So we have over 900.

We have 900 consignments and 200 barn finds in the building.

We're busting at the seams.

200 barn finds down from 350 is where we were.

I finally did a real count.

You know, I've just been spouting out numbers and I don't even really know

where they come from.

But down from our original 350, we've sold about 125 of them.

But barn finds are not as easy to sell as they used to be because in the old days, there

was a lot of guys tinkering around with Model A's and Model T's and they'd buy a barn find

with no title because they needed most of the parts off of it and the whole is cheaper

than the parts.

So if you went and bought the parts individually, you'd pay more than if you bought the

whole car.

But nowadays, we advertise some of these cars, no title.

So the guy says, yeah, I got it.

No title.

And then we sell it to him.

They go, so how do we get a title?

How do you get a title in 1928 Chevy?

Well, you've got to be very creative.

There are ways to get titles for cars.

There's legal things that you do that you fill out and bond and you've got to

go before a judge and there's a whole procedure and I don't know really much of any of

it.

And it's state to state.

Yeah.

And it's state to state.

So it all depends on where you're from and some states don't have titles anymore.

So like New Hampshire in New York, anything that's 25 years or older doesn't even have

a title.

It just has a registration.

And sometimes you'll sell a car on a registration to a buyer in California and

California says, no, no, no, no.

You can't.

That's not possible.

They have to have a title.

No, they don't have titles.

So I am going to be the first to raise my hand to vote for federalization of titles

and bills of sale of automobiles because back in the day when you sold a car,

you generally sold it within five miles of your dealership.

So you the state laws were right there.

You know, you didn't, you didn't worry about what North Carolina did or didn't do or South

Carolina or Florida or whatever.

Nowadays, most cars are bought probably past state lines.

So a lot of internet, a lot of internet stuff and especially in the classic car world.

So I think if we federalize the titles, careful what you wish for.

If we federalize the titles, then I think that it would make everybody's job easier

because I can't tell you how many people sign in the wrong space on an unfamiliar title

because they are used to being a certain place to sign and then they go on the back of it

and you sign in the wrong spot.

And of course that creates difficulties and so, but that's what we're here for.

Because we can take the headache out of selling your car and dealing with the paperwork

and dealing with, you know, cashier's checks and you remember the old days,

cashier's checks were gold, right?

Not anymore, right?

How'd you like to give your car to a guy on Saturday night?

He gives you a cashier's check.

He takes off Sunday morning, you go into the bank.

No, it's not any good.

We don't recognize this at all.

This bank doesn't exist.

Your checks are about as good as personal check.

They're still five business days to clear.

So if you want to bring a cashier's check, don't.

If you want to take the car home today, bring greenbacks or wire the money from

your bank directly to our bank.

And once that happens, then we're good to go.

So anyway, some of the new inventory this week, 1956 Pontiac Star Chief Catalina

Custom Sedan.

I just wanted to say all those words together.

Sandalwood tan and sun beige over rust and beige.

I don't think that they would call a color rust these days.

I would think that would have a negative connotation, right?

New brakes and wheel cylinders.

This thing is rebuilt.

One family owned 317 cubic inch V8 rebuilt hydramatic transmission.

Really a cool car.

I mean, you talk about, you know, antique car and what you think of

and you think of 55, 56, 57 Chevys or Pontiacs or Oldsmobiles from that era.

They just have that look and feel of an antique or classic car.

It's a beautiful car.

Lots of chrome and just beautiful curves and lines and reasonable.

I think if you're getting in the classic car market and you're looking

for something like this, it's a reasonable car.

I think it's mid 20s or something on that, which is about an entry level car.

I mean, I know it's that you say that's not a lot of money,

but go price a new car these days.

The new Silverado, the electric one is the new Denali Electric.

A hundred and eight thousand dollars is the starting price on it.

Who in that?

What that I just don't get it.

It's not as pretty as the Pontiac.

No, it's not the 56 star chief, which is probably politically incorrect

to somehow some way, right?

How about the 2000 F 750 crew cab?

Now this is way outside the realm of what we do in classic car world.

This thing.

Have you seen this thing?

Yeah, it is huge.

I've always dreamed about picking up my kids in one of those at school.

How embarrassing for the kids, right?

I'll never forget Kathy picked up the kids one time in an orange

and white Volkswagen van again, and the kids were horrified.

Really?

They were so embarrassed and she thought it was going to be so cool.

And yeah, I thought it was cool.

And the kids are like, oh, mom, please never ever pick us up

in that again.

That is so embarrassing.

What were you thinking?

And I'm like, gosh, my dad used to drive me to school

and his X K E 67.

And oh, it wasn't nice in the wintertime.

That thing leaked like a sieve and it was cold and, you know,

the defroster didn't work and, you know, just, you know,

it wasn't a lot of fun.

It was cool to look at.

My dad bought it at night in the rain.

And of course he found out that he probably shouldn't have

bought it at night in the rain because all cars look good

in the rain for some reason.

That's right.

But but anyway, this is like a pedestrian level freight

liner freight liner.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's that's that's hard to describe what it is,

but it's huge.

I mean, an F 750, you know what an F 350 or 250 is.

So it's got a 7.2 liter Detroit Detroit cat diesel.

Allison six feet.

It's got 605 foot pounds of torque.

You can tell with it.

You might be able to tow a trailer or two with it.

Of course, I don't know what the diagram thing weighs,

but air brakes air suspension.

It's got a 33,000 pound GVWR, which I'm not even sure

when I say that.

And then I go, I don't really know what that.

What does that mean?

Really?

I mean, does that mean you can haul 33,000 pounds

or does that mean the total weight of the rig and the trailer?

And I don't know.

So I should stop saying things that I don't know the answer to

and I say that more often than I should.

So but anyway, if you're in the need for a F 750.

Yeah.

And by golly, we have, I think we've got another one

that's similar to that too.

Anyway, how about let's get back to something

that more normal.

Here's my lovely bride.

48 Chevrolet Fleetmaster Sport Coupe with the wood

on the sides, Oxford maroon and wood over 10.

And it's the country club package.

So rarely seen, so they say.

216 cubic inch inline six, three speed manual tranny

and on the column shift.

No doubt.

Talk about confusing the millennials bad enough

with a four speed on the floor, but how about three

on the tree?

Oh my goodness.

You know, and they're not there.

People even that are car guys that get confused by three

on the tree.

I'm like, it's it's the same pattern.

It's just at a different angle.

It's weird if you're never doing it.

It is weird, but the wood sides on this thing look

really beautiful.

Beautiful car.

That's why my wife was she wanted a grand wagon here

until she found out they weren't going to put the wood grain

on the sides on the new ones that they just came out

with last year.

And she's like, well, why wouldn't they do that?

That's the way the grand wagon ears were.

They had wood on the sides.

So I digress.

But anyway, how about a 62 this Corvette Roadster

that we got in?

It's a magnetic red metallic over tan.

This thing is unbelievable.

Won so many awards.

It's a it's a Resto mod, which, you know, I'm I

have mixed emotions about a Resto mods.

You know, I hope that it didn't do away with a really good

car.

I'm hoping that it's a car that was sans engine and, you

know, didn't have any of the drivetrain.

And so they said, hey, you know what?

No harm, no foul if we're going to make something out

of it.

But this thing is unbelievable.

It's got a 5.7 liter LS1 408 horsepower Magnuson

supercharger.

Now think about this on a 62 vet, the hop horsepower

for them back in the day would have been 245 maybe

with a fuel.

I mean, my goodness have double the horsepower and

it's a Newman's car creation chassis.

And it's a T 56 manual, Tremac five speed manual,

which are great to have because we all know that

a four speed is great, maybe in racing and great

when you're running around the neighborhood on the

twisty roads, but get out on the highway with a

four speed.

You are begging for a fifth gear.

I feel like the car is just going to explode,

especially with the rear end gearing.

So another new car we got in this one's a little

outside the box to an 07 911 turbo Porsche and this

thing is beautiful GT silver over terracotta.

It's the 3.6 liter twin turbo all wheel drive.

Man, oh man, oh man.

This thing is just smoking fast.

It is really it's they are there.

They're almost deceivingly fast.

You know, they're not loud loud.

You hear the noise and you hear it spooling

up and those, you know, six cylinder Porsche

engines are pretty cool to begin with.

But man, this thing is just it's a beast.

And and but you can drive it in normal traffic.

And then that's not, you know, a few years ago.

That wasn't is yet something that powerful.

You really couldn't drive it and bump bumper to bumper

traffic would like to say.

Also got a newer another kind of a driver quality car

2008 Jaguar XKR coupe.

It's salsa over charcoal black leather and walnut

interior 4.2 liter supercharged V8.

This thing is really cool.

Red that red.

It's bright red.

It's fire engine red.

Yeah, it rests me red.

So but, you know, listen, if you if you're buying

a car to be noticed, then buy it in red.

If you're not buying gray or white or something like that.

You know, they say that I've said this before.

They say some of the car dealers will tell you that

they they don't like a lot of choices of colors

because it confuses people.

People who come to buy a car and they oh, well,

I really like the red one.

But oh, I like the brown one.

Oh, but that's, you know, that silver is really,

you know, they're like Mercedes guys will tell you

look, just give us a couple of colors one or two,

maybe three and and that's all we need.

Black, white and silver.

That'll cover all the bases.

So word has gotten out that the world famous Chuck

Cantwell here with us had a nickname back in the day.

I don't know if you like this nickname or not.

Mr. GT 350.

Was that how they referred to you?

That's what Shelby told me.

Not a bad not a bad way to be recognized right by Shelby.

So you were the lead engineer,

I guess on the GT 350 and more the racing side of it though,

or were you in both sides?

I was on both sides production and the racing and right

and the trans am is that came along and you grew up in

Speedway, Indiana.

So how perfect for you to be in the car business?

How did you go to the Indy 500 every year?

Every year.

I missed the first year after the war, right?

And then 47 until I moved away right in the 60s.

Right.

And then I'd come back and I always encounter winter in

California.

They used to show the move with a race on theater.

No, no.

Grownman's Chinese theater.

No kidding.

I didn't know that.

How cool is that?

There are different things.

Yeah, I want.

So did they get so it was it was it a day or two delayed

or was it?

No, it was real time live.

No kid fill a theater up with people and.

Oh, my God, how fun would that be to go watch a race

in a movie theater?

That would be cool.

Well, you know, you see that in like pro sports now or

sports, even college sports where the team will be

playing in a bowl somewhere in California and teams

from Florida and they'll watch it in the stadium.

You know, everybody will gather in the stadium,

even though there's no game going on there.

So how cool was that?

Can't imagine it was terribly expensive back in the

day.

It was a couple of bucks to go see that or a couple

bucks.

I had a couple of bucks for qualifying.

We always went to qualifying because they had 100,000

people there for qualifying.

Right.

Weekend and then the race that was five bucks for

general mission, I think, and if you didn't think

out of the fence, which we did a few times.

Well, a lot of people lived right there.

I mean, right next to like across the street from

the track.

There was yeah, it was right and I was surprised

the first time I went to the Indianapolis 500.

I thought it would be kind of out in the middle

of nowhere and it was not.

No, not at all like in a neighborhood.

You know, probably be tough to get that zoned in

these days.

Yeah.

Kind of like Maple Grove up the street from us.

I don't think that in this day and age, you could

get a two lane road into bringing that many people

into a race course.

So you you left Indianapolis or Indiana and

moved to California.

No, I was I worked at Allison.

I'd be pretty sure the GM company on your school

at GMI General Motors Tech and they co-opted

Allison Allison at that time built jet engines

and transmissions and and they had a had a one

shop, the original race shop, which was part of

the Jim Allison's initial shop as one of the founders

of the Speedway.

Oh, really?

I didn't know that.

They built railroad bearings for box cars.

No kidding.

They're poured poured bad but bearings with big

big things.

They had these tanks around the cruddy looking

stuff where they dip the bearings and everything.

How funny and Allison transit missions are still

around.

Just talking about them missions.

Yeah, they're there at the top of the top of the

heat.

You know, they're really good.

Absolutely.

So you loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly

at some point in time in the early 60s.

Right?

Well, what I and yeah, in 60 I moved to Detroit

right and work for GM styling.

I transferred.

There's some people from styling came around

looking for looking for people and interviews.

So I thought, well, see what that's all about.

That's a car car place and they're right in

the aircraft business with Alice.

So I talked to them and they were sports car

people.

They got was looking for people as a sports car

guy and I was racing sports cars and at that

time in Indianapolis.

And so I got a job with them and worked for

them for four years in Detroit.

Then after that, I went out to California

when a friend of mine who worked for GM at

the tech center was he said, let's go.

Let's go to dinner.

I want to talk to you about so he was in the

middle of middle of 1964 somewhere and he told

me about the program there.

The Shelby Mustang.

And of course I knew Shelby Shelby's operation

and successes and everything.

I'd seen them race at Elkhart Lake when

I was up there racing.

And so we talked.

I went out and interviewed and they offered

me a job.

So it's project engineer and that was Wow.

So you went from you were working in the styling

department, right?

Yeah, which is unusual for is that an unusual

for an engineer to be in the styling department?

That was I worked in a I worked in preliminary

engineering at Allison and this group was

called preliminary engineering also.

We did all kind of odd stuff on different

projects and that was and working in amongst

the all the talented people.

Styling operation.

It was in the middle of the Tech Center there

and Warren, Michigan.

That was some of the best styling and of our

ever.

They were good good people.

Yeah, just a pleasure to know them and just

to see what they did.

See the work.

It was enlightening.

And was it always a battle between, you

know, the accounting department and the

styling department on, you know, getting

something approved because the styling said

this and then accounting said that's

too expensive.

They're all kind of battles.

Yeah, that that being one of them, right?

Mitchell had ideas and he was the head of the

styling and the studio's had their heads

and everybody had to varying people in

in the divisions had their own ideas.

And so they had to separate all that out

and combine it and come to common level.

Mitchell got some great things through though.

Didn't I mean look at the 64 Riviera.

Oh, it's still a beautiful car to this day.

Yeah, he he did.

Was he was an interesting guy to know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would.

He was a race fan.

I mean, he goes.

Oh, really?

He'd be always have something to take the

Elkhart Lake in the fall 500.

Yeah, that's right.

Elkhart Lake was probably his close the closest

road call.

It was it was 400.

I wasn't that far.

I guess it is.

You get up there in that northern tundra area.

Well, and I, you know, I told him I raised

some mgs and I towed flat towed them for a while

and then you do 450 mile flat tow.

That's a long drive.

And then you're going to race again.

Yeah, that was worth it.

Yeah, great race.

Well, at the time we were, you know, younger

and more energetic and more enthusiastic, right?

But California had to be a little bit.

Was it a culture shock back then?

I mean, did you know much about

California before you moved there?

I did not.

It was sort of a just go and adventure set up

and I had just gotten engaged to it.

And when I went out to California,

I was out there for about three months

and then came back at Christmastime to

Michigan and day after Christmas,

we got married and and drove our car

and U-Haul trailer out to California.

That was our honeymoon.

Oh, well, hey, not a bad honeymoon though.

Right?

Right.

I mean, could be worse things to go places to go.

Right.

And you saw a lot of stuff on the way.

So your official title was project engineers.

I jokingly said or not jokingly said Mr.

GT 350 was that everybody calls you

because that was your baby, right?

I mean, that was that was the engineer on that car.

We designed everything.

Sure.

I had the my responsibility was getting

all put together and making it work

and supporting the production people

that were trying to build the car.

Sure.

What were your initial thoughts of the Mustang?

Did you think it was the right car

for the project or did you like it?

Or did you just say, OK, this is what we're dealt.

We'll deal with it.

Well, yeah, I guess that was more of a thing.

I didn't see anything wrong with it.

I didn't know anything about it much.

And before I was left styling,

we had started on the on the Camaro.

That was in the styling of the studio

and that was coming along partway.

I wasn't released yet.

But it was it was seemed like a good car.

And then Sam Smith, who is my friend that went to work

for Ray Gettys and Ford Special Vehicles.

Right.

And he was liaison with with Ford

and Shelby American when Carol Shelby.

So he he introduced me to the situation.

Sure.

And before I even went to California,

we spent three weeks with big counting table paper

and laying out every every single part.

We're going to have to do anything with them.

What the situation was with with the particular part

and even nuts and bolts.

We were trying to get down a list of everything.

I mean, they had a lot of Ford knew what they wanted to do.

What they wanted to achieve with it pretty much.

But it wasn't all detailed and the parts were in all.

We had a purchasing guy that worked with us in California.

But when Sam and I laid out all the stuff on these tablets

and we laid out every component and put the situation

of the component was laid out whether or not it was.

It was a purchase for component from somebody

like we bought transmissions from Board Warner

and they would be installed on the on the cars at Ford.

They could shift them to Ford.

They could be installed other things.

That saved you a little bit of time and effort.

Anything we could do in San Jose had to be in the Ford system.

So it was couldn't do everything there.

That's why we had Shelby American.

But we had parts, some things we had to buy

from specialty manufacturers and headers and things like that.

What about, and did you fabricate stuff as well too?

We fabricated stuff as well.

And usually we didn't fabricate it in-house

except for the early ones we made in the first 15 cars

or so we probably made a lot of parts for.

We had suppliers that we did some drawings.

I mean, some of them were like back of the envelope drawings

or here's a sample we built.

Try to say for you.

We built one or two and here's something you want.

Yeah, here's the specs there.

Yeah, built a couple hundred.

And were y'all working at a Venice at the time

or had you moved to?

Well, no, when we started there, we were in Venice

and gradually moved into the LAX airport.

When the race guys went to Daytona,

they'd take their trailer loads full of race stuff.

When they come back, they'd go over to the,

they'd drop them off at the hangers.

And then that was how you moved kind of.

That's sort of how we moved a lot of it.

And then we had one big major move

which was very well laid out.

And I think I only lost one part.

I had a little box about six inches cubed

and I forget even what was in it.

But that didn't show up till about three months later.

I had a little better idea.

Yeah, I've been looking for that stupid thing.

Well, but in the nice thing about the LAX

is you really had basically a test track there, right?

Because from what I understand, the test track,

prior to that would have been Sunset in Mulholland or?

Well, actually, they did some running around on the marina.

Right.

Santa Monica marina was too far away from the Venice,

Venice place.

But that wasn't, if they really wanted to test race cars

only went to Riverside or Willow Spring.

We did most of the Mustang testing.

We did a couple at the very beginning at Riverside.

And then we did all the rest of Willow Springs.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

They were both good tracks.

Oh, great tracks.

They were both 90 miles away from the shop.

So it didn't make any difference.

Either one, right?

Whoever had the free time and availability.

So when we returned, we will continue our conversation

with Chuck Cantwell, former shelving boy

and talking to bed tonight.

A classic and clunker lovers,

March, September 19th, 2025 on your calendar

for the second classic automobile auction.

A little aid for spring house cleaning.

But nonetheless, this very special auction will be as is.

Where is with no reserve?

That means highest bidder wins.

That's right.

No reserve means highest bidder takes it cars,

trucks, military vehicles, running, not running titles.

No titles, barn finds and project and parts vehicles

in in person by phone or online.

Now's your chance to be the last one standing

with no reserve on the second classic

auto mall auto auction.

This one as is.

Where is September 19th at 11 a.m.

Eastern daylight time on the lot of the classic

auto mall Turnpike exit number 198 Morgan town,

Pennsylvania.

See the inventory and all applicable rules

and conditions at classicautomall.com.

Are your calendars of September 19th

for the classic automobile auction?

This is the classic automobile show.

If you have questions or comments,

write podcast at classicautomall.com.

Chuck Cantwell here with us.

So the biggest question about the GT 350

is where did the name come from?

Is it?

Well, there's stories and I've heard it first hand

from Shelby.

Right.

He and Remington were sitting in his office

and talking about what should we call this thing

because it had been a mustang.

Shelby mustang is the name we had attached to the project.

But they were talking and for some reason

we had two in Venice.

We had two buildings and they were around the corner

from each other, but there was a field in between.

So dangly, so Shelby asked Remington,

how far is it from this building to the other building?

And Rem said, oh, it's about 350 feet or something

like that and Shelby said, okay,

that's what we'll call it.

I love that.

And 500 just was another number.

Right, right.

Somebody said that it was because it weighed

five hundred four pounds than the GT 350,

but I don't think nothing is at all meaningfully at all.

Right.

How funny is that though?

But I think Shelby was quoted as saying

that the name wouldn't make the car

and if it's a bad car, the name won't save it.

So it didn't really matter.

And of course, nowadays cars don't even have names anymore.

It's crazy.

It's ridiculous.

They're all numbers and, you know, letters

and I don't quite understand it.

I always liked the Bonneville and the Star Chief.

Yeah, I know, me too.

Yeah, so, so and the, you know, the GT 500 and the KR,

we all know that that stood for King of the Road.

So, which was really a great name.

Although it's surprising they never put,

they put 428s and 429s and not the 427.

Was there a reason that the 427 was never used in them?

It was money.

I think the 427 been a much better engine

if you were going to compete with it.

We weren't competing with it

and the police interceptor engine was a good engine

for what it was and so we used that engine

and they did a lot of, we did a lot of discussion

back and forth of which engine to actually use in the car.

But that's the one they came up with.

Well, and people don't realize that back in the day,

a couple hundred dollar difference between something

was a huge amount of money.

Not like today where, you know, you know,

a set of wheels are ten thousand dollars, you know.

I mean, it was really, you know, people say,

why didn't you get the convertible?

Well, it was two hundred dollars more.

Okay, well, but you know, getting to drive and test,

I mean, did you really test drive every GT350R

that came out of Shelby?

Was that?

Yes.

Wow.

Essentially, actually the first couple that we tested

were the first two we built and they were,

most of that testing was done by Bondran and Miles,

Ken Miles and I got to ride with Ken Miles.

He would let me ride with him at Willow Springs.

That's how I learned Willow Springs.

So when they got involved with all the European racing

and other racing projects where they were needed

as drivers and once we had the two cars tested,

John Tamanus tested a couple of the cars.

He was running the driver's school at the time.

Right.

Which became Bondran school, right?

Yeah, in theory, yeah.

Yeah, I guess it rolled over to Bondran.

So he tested those two cars.

So about four cars that we built, I didn't test.

But then everything after that, I don't even know

how it started.

I think Tamanus couldn't run one day we wanted to test.

And so I said, well, I'll just do it.

Right.

And it didn't test anybody.

Nobody appointed me.

I just sort of slipped it in there.

I like that kind of thinking.

That's the way to do it, man.

Just, ah, just assume it and go for it.

I tested like 70 cars all the GT350s and two years of Trans Am cars.

So was it fun or was it a job at that point in time?

I mean, did you enjoy the moment?

No, I enjoyed it.

Yeah.

Anytime on the track.

When Ken Miles, when you rode with him,

would he talk to you through the track

and tell you the points and things?

Well, no, he just sort of, you just knew where to.

Couldn't hear anything in those cars.

True.

Never thought about that.

One place at the end of the straightaway,

he could go through there flat out.

Well, if you hadn't had a demonstration of doing that,

it didn't take you a while to work up to that.

But then after he knew, you know, I could,

I knew you could do it.

It's doable.

You just do it.

I rode with the instructors at Bondurant in Arizona

and it was frightening because you think there's no way

these cars can make this turn.

Right.

And they do somehow.

Well, that's the thing that, you know,

when you give people a ride, I gave a couple of mechanics

rides different times.

And that's the thing that they couldn't believe

how deep you can go into the corners and still make the corner.

In fact, one of our Indian guy, he was riding with me

and there's a uphill turn, right-hand turning going

on the back straight at Willow Springs.

And I blew a tire.

It was near the end of the day.

We'd been testing all day.

The tires were worn down and for some of you

know that I blew a tire.

Didn't go off the course or anything,

so I blew a tire and then spun the car and he was...

Well, Kim, I was...

This year is up in the air.

He didn't do any more.

They figured they'd leave that to you guys, right?

Well, I mean, you're test driving a new car

if things can go wrong.

There's a lot of opportunity for failure, right?

And for things to happen.

But it was a...

We knew what the design was.

It wasn't exploratory too much.

I had the first race car we built, 002,

was the tightest run in the first half of the season

and I ran that one race and one that at Willow

and another, Ed Leslie, ran it at Candlestick Park and then...

In San Francisco, was that where that was in?

Yeah, and Miles ran it in a race in the fall of 65.

Well, you had the advantage at Willow Grove, right?

Because that was your home track.

Yeah, I do a lot of laps on that.

I ran within a tenth of a second of Miles' good time.

No kidding.

And I kept trying to knock that tenth of a second off

and then my crew guys, they said,

come on, let's get there.

It's only a tenth of a second.

I know.

Finally, one day, near the end of the day,

the temperature was going down.

I had good tires on there and the gas about out of the gas.

Perfect scenario.

So the GT350Rs, whether it was 34 or...

Well, I said 36, maybe.

I think it was really 35 that turned out later.

And of course, those are quite valuable these days.

Oh, those are incredibly valuable.

The first one sold for what?

3.7 million.

Was that Miles' personal 350R or not really?

Miles ran the first race in that car.

Gotcha.

And then Titus ran it after that.

Ran several races in the divisional championship series.

Oh, he ran a couple of weren't points or point races

and then switched over to the second car.

Right.

It was 001 and then he ran the rest of the season in that

and then ran it at Daytona and won the national championship.

Wow.

002 and practiced at Daytona.

Because I had won the one race during the season that I ran.

They figured.

I got nine points and that was enough for like fifth in the divisional.

That's crazy.

I love it.

And they took the first three cars for the divisional

or for the end of the division and they could run the runoff.

And that was at Daytona in the runoff?

At Daytona in the runoff.

And that was B production, right?

That was the class?

B production, yeah.

Which you raced against what?

Tigers and well Tigers Tigers and Jaguar.

Yeah, where the in the West Coast anyway.

But sure.

Mostly it was a lot of GT three fifties.

Right.

The Corvettes.

I mean, the object shall be explained to me when I interviewed

was to beat the Corvette.

That was it.

Damn Corvette.

Yeah.

Well, like Ford versus Ferrari beat the Ferrari.

You know, I mean, yeah, that's the same thing.

Right.

And the beep.

I mean, the GT three 51 B production Nationals like the

five or four or five years in a row or some crazy number.

Yeah.

And you know, of course, Shelby's 100th birthday was just

this past week.

Hard to believe.

Golly.

It is just amazing.

You know, and he passed in what 2012?

I guess it was or how he lived as long as he did with

his health and well and he had a heart transplant.

Yeah.

He was he was pretty tough.

Six million dollar man or something that, you know, all

the parts in him.

So were you were you and Shelby?

I mean, were you co-workers?

Were your friends?

Were you what was your relationship with?

Well, I wasn't on the inside route with them.

But when we were starting the project, we had a lot of

meetings together with Ray Gettis and Ford Smith,

who I guess they work for him myself and and Shelby

and we have meetings.

How we go on.

What's happening?

Right.

What's is informal kind of we'd have dinner or something

like that.

And so we were always on good terms and after afterward

when we got to get together at at Cobra Shelby

collection that in Boulder once a year, they had

an event, which was a fun fundraising event for them

had dinner, but they had Jack Sears have come over

from England, one of the Cobra Coop driver and Shelby

to be there and Bondarant and and a lot of people and

I didn't I wasn't in on the beginning of that.

But but I got in for several, several times with

Shelby was always there and and he was always very

appreciative of of the early people that work

for him.

Sure.

And he was always interesting to talk to.

Oh, yeah, I've got the chance to visit with him

for a brief time at Bear Jackson one time and

it was just, you know, for 15, 20 minutes, but he

was just an interesting guy to talk to, you know,

and and always seemed like he really was interested

in what somebody else was saying and not just,

you know, listening, blowing people off or something

which a lot of guys do that.

How was this chilly, by the way?

I don't think I had a couple cans.

I don't remember whether he did.

Oh, so you tested all those that these cars.

I think the price point was like $3,500 to $4,500.

They were back in the day.

Yeah, I think our models were $39.95 or something like that.

God, couldn't we have just bought everyone of them?

Yeah, right, which shouldn't we have.

Oh, I tell you, I was watching this Meekam auction

going on in Kissimmee.

I think so many cars that I saw.

Hemi Superbirds.

I used to remember seeing one on the car lot for $3,500.

They couldn't give it away.

Nobody wanted it.

So still visiting here with our friend Chuck Cantwell

talking about the early Shelby days and other things

as well, too.

I've got enough, I got enough questions.

I could bring you on like three or four different shows.

And we were just talking about souvenirs and memorabilia.

Did your address book sell at a Meekam auction for $846

a couple of years ago?

Yes, it did.

Is that crazy?

And then my sweet jacket, which I had wore one time

during a test that was spring.

Right.

And there's a picture of that with me and Bon Ratten Miles.

That is so funny.

I had that worn out.

Just threw it aside, right?

Joanne was saying, get that out of here.

I said, well, I'll call John see if he wants it.

So I gave it to John.

And it was sort of ratty at the sleeves and stuff.

But that thing is so funny.

I was looking something yesterday and I'm on Meekam site

looking at cars and I don't know somehow.

And I was like, what is that?

I mean, that's just so funny.

Of course, there's probably some good names in there.

Interesting names anyway, right?

Yeah, I mean, it was back in the heyday of racing

and everybody was talking to everybody, right?

So, man, oh man, I think one of the things that I had read

though about Shelby and the Mustang part of that

was when he said to Iacocca, you want me to make a race

horse out of a mule?

Yeah.

But you know, I mean, I think the Mustang, I mean,

what an amazing success that was.

And right out of the gate, the Mustang was a successful

car just in general.

Forget about the Shelby aspect of it, an amazing car

that sold unbelievable amounts of cars.

Still is.

They did.

And you look at that car now, how old is that?

50, 60 years?

Yeah.

Or something and it looks nice sitting on the street.

It does.

It's a good car.

And if you went back to when that car was new

and went back 50 years, you had a Model T.

It looks so nice.

And 66.

Exactly.

That car has been long lived.

Well, our buddy Lee Cross puts on the Shelby GT350 tour

every year and he does an amazing job.

And it's so cool to see 40, 50 Shelby GT350s all lined

up in a parking lot at a hotel somewhere.

Yeah, the one I was a guest at the last one

just this year.

Oh, in Missouri?

Yeah.

In Missouri.

And I'd run that two years before my wife

and I'd driven that then and she can't come anymore,

unfortunately.

Right.

So we had, but there were, you go out there

and there are all these white cars, the blue stripes.

And I was riding with one particular guy.

Right.

I go out there and try to find the car.

I mean, which car is that?

It's like living in a condo.

They all look the same.

Yeah, they had their numbers on the sign

so you didn't have to list the numbers.

You didn't know whose car was which.

Oh, that's funny.

But it was amazing to see that many, see how many,

there's no place anywhere that's ever going to be that many

GT350s, 65 and 66.

Absolutely.

It'll be in one place.

And how was the relationship with Hertz in the rental car

thing in 66?

Was that a pain or is it, I mean, it probably was good

for cash flow?

Well, I guess it was.

That was Peyton Kramer, who was the general manager

at the time.

It was his deal he put together.

Great deal, right?

Oh, great deal.

Yeah.

For us, we made about a thousand Hertz cars and about

1300 regular cars and we used automatic transmissions

and started out in the Hertz cars with four speeds

and automatic transmission because they had a new high

performance automatic.

They were trying to promote and they were trying

to promote it.

It was a good, really good transmission for the car.

So they had them with the people would fry the clutches

of people in places like San Francisco on the hills.

They had a lot of problems with that, but the

automates were good.

Sure.

I didn't realize until I wrote a book, which I wrote

a couple years ago, that there were as many

automatics in the regular Hertz line as there were.

Right.

Like 40% or something.

Wow.

Really high percentage.

Sure.

I knew there was a few, but I didn't think

there was that many.

And was it true?

People would take them and race them on Sunday

and then bring them back or steal the motors and replace

them with a different motor.

Got a lot of stories about that.

A couple of times that probably.

Yeah, but not it wasn't prevalent.

Right.

Wholesale.

What about the story of this?

And I don't know if you know if this is true or not

that Shelby would put a $20 bill on the dash of a

Cobra and put it in first gear and tell the

passenger if you can reach up and grab that you

can have the 20.

Well, you know, there's all kinds of.

It's called folklore.

Well, and he lived on folklore, right?

I mean, the driver.

Yeah, exactly.

Fame.

Well, you know, it's funny.

It's, you know, somebody was talking about some of

the things that folklore like the victory champagne

spring that Dan Gurney supposedly started.

But Shelby was standing right next to him.

I guess apparently with the first time he ever

sprayed champagne.

And so they say maybe Shelby whispered in his

ear to spray that.

You know, it's all fun and speculation.

It's no harm, no foul to have fun and telling

stories like that, right?

You know, it's just it's not like anybody's going

to get hurt by it or, you know, something so no

malicious.

No, exactly.

So so you ended up going to work for Pinsky

after Shelby, right?

Yes.

And that I mean, was he a perfectionist then

as much as he is now?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, the same kind of.

That was that was right.

His personality.

He was he was an interesting guy and then

very proficient anything he wants to undertake.

My wife, we used to do in his office on down on

Chestnut Street.

I think we'd come out and my wife would say,

you ever see a clean desk like that?

There was anything on his desk.

My desk.

But in the beginning, when we started in Newtown

Square, Mark and I had had one desk and one

payphone.

Oh, yeah.

We had with a bowl of dimes, right?

So you got to work with Donahue a lot,

right?

I mean, how amazing.

Five years, yeah.

What a loss that was.

And did you work on the 917 program with him

as well, too?

I did, but I did mostly administrative

and operational stuff and required shipping

and all that everything.

All the boring stuff, right?

Just like I was talking about just a minute ago.

But and then in the middle of y'all,

when y'all prior to the 917 running the

Trans-M Series, you switched to AMC

Javelins, right?

Yes, that must have been a risk.

Well, it wasn't a way, but we had our shop.

We had a five-day shop, which is still there.

And there was a little house down in front,

which we didn't have.

And we had our payphone and our one desk.

When we went to GMC, we took over the little

house and set up an office down there.

We had a couple of computers.

Don Cox came to work for us from Chevrolet

Engineering, and then he bought computers,

a computer that we had.

We could do a few things with computers.

This was way before computers were very prevalent.

Yeah, they were very, yeah, yeah.

They'd used them a lot at Chevrolet Engineering.

Don was involved with all the Jim Hall stuff,

the chaperones, that kind of stuff.

So he had a lot of good background for that.

And the computers were all the punch cards

back in the day, weren't they?

Or were they those big or were these

actual calculating computers?

They were just like desktops.

Really?

Wow, how cool.

And what's in that building now?

You said it's still there.

What's in that building?

Well, it's actually, it's a shop, an auto shop.

Really?

Yeah.

And the little building, I don't know

whether there's anything in there.

I was, it was so funny.

I remember the first time I ever saw a picture

of Pinsky's racing operation in Moresville,

I think, down in North Carolina,

and how clean and pristine it is.

It was just unbelievable.

So one of the things too, we're talking about,

sorry, we're jumping around a little bit,

but can get back to Ken Miles a little bit.

Was, I mean, was he an engineer's driver?

Was he the guy who could convey to the engineers

what needed to be done to a car as good

as anybody, or did?

Yeah, he was pretty good at it.

And he, he, he, he could have been,

he could have applied himself.

I mean, if he had bothered going to school.

Right.

I guess he, he could have been a very good engineer

himself, same as Remington.

Right.

And they worked together a lot.

They could figure things out.

Yeah.

And they had a good rapport between each other.

And so they, you know, Miles could find problems

and, and he could fix them too.

And, right.

But Rem, he and Rem worked together a lot

on different things.

A lot of, a lot of engineers, I guess, will tell you

that the most successful drivers are the ones

that can convey how, what the car's doing

and be right about it, you know.

And it's one thing to drive fast.

Yeah.

Right.

And then you've got to have the people

that know what to do when you can.

Right.

And of course, back then,

you didn't have huge budgets.

You know, it wasn't like you had unlimited money

like some of these teams have nowadays.

I mean,

It was like when we switched from Camaro,

which we got somebody from.

Right.

Camaro, the American Motors,

and we had a good budget

and then we could have a, a good program.

Right.

And so, had a secretary.

Right.

Woo, fancy.

Some room for, right.

Room for offices.

Some help and.

Yeah.

A little stuff like that.

That's the.

So I got to tell you my funniest Chuck Cantwell story.

So I'm coming back from Radner Hunt this year,

or last year now, I guess it is.

And it's pouring down rain on Sunday.

And I hear this car rumble up next to me

and it sounds pretty impressive.

So I wonder, what is that?

And I look out and it's you in a floppy hat

in your GT 350.

It's raining.

I think you're trying to wipe off the windshield

a little bit and driving that car

as if it was a Toyota Camry.

I love that.

I was, you won me over when,

when I saw you driving that car.

So you have 6S796, I believe it is.

The blue one that has got an interesting story

and you've owned it, what, 10 years now or so long?

Yeah, about the end of 2009.

Gotcha.

From a friend in New Hampshire

who I had met when we went,

he worked at the Ford dealer

when we went there for races.

Right.

And Trans Am races.

Oh, in New Hampshire, yeah.

Yeah, in New Hampshire.

And he had this car staged away for 35 years.

Wow.

So I, and he kept saying in recent years,

you've got to have this car.

But then he wouldn't come.

I said, well, what do you want for it?

He would never.

Hey, what do you want to give me for it?

Well, I didn't want to give him enough.

It was what that was.

But eventually we, you know,

it took about a year.

What a negotiation, right?

He was a car salesman.

And, and I love.

Here comes a very good friend.

Well, there you go.

You know, what's funny is,

is that people will say all the time to our car guys,

they'll say, what's the least you'll take for it?

And I said, ask them back.

What's the most you'll pay for it?

Yeah, that's a beautiful, beautiful car.

Is that original mileage on that car?

Is it like 30?

Yeah, it's under 30.

Twenty-seven dollars.

How cool.

And it was and when Stan,

Stan had Helen and who owned,

owned that car, right?

Had Cobra number twenty-four or thirty-four.

Right.

It was a woman sector car.

Right.

With a 260 into the 260.

And he had it.

It had less than 5,000 miles on it.

And it hadn't been running years.

And when I first met him in sixty-seven.

Wow.

That car was in his garage.

And he sold that for a million,

eight or something.

Wow.

Yeah.

And a street car that didn't run.

Could you just kick yourself on the Cobra Daytona for never buying one?

When you probably saw him,

you could have bought him for nothing, right?

Yeah, but I'd have done the same thing Bonran did.

He bought one for ten thousand,

or for five thousand dollars.

Right.

And as soon as the price got to ten thousand,

he sold that car right away.

Look at me.

We all would have done that, right?

Yeah, sure.

We'd have done that in a couple of years.

Oh, man.

That's so fantastic to talk to you.

I tell you what.

The history of what you've experienced over the years,

and just watching the Shelby things happen in the Mustang,

still continues to today.

You know, the Shelby Mustang is still prevalent today,

if not more so than it was twenty-five years ago.

Yeah, it's amazing.

I mean, it just was a car that hit the note in everybody's mind

of what a car like that should be.

And it's such a tragedy for Ken Miles,

the way he passed number one.

And also the loss at Le Mans when he, you know,

could have won, you know.

Yeah, that was everybody who was unhappy about it.

Yeah, that was such a bummer.

I mean, you know, last question I'll ask you,

Ford versus Ferrari, I have to ask you,

did you love the movie?

Oh, I loved it.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it was,

they took liberty as they do in any movie,

but it was a good movie, right?

It was a good movie.

Well, well, well made Hollywood,

but then, you know,

Carolyn and Ken Miles never wrestled in middle of the street.

And stuff, a lot of the stuff was emphasized the point

that racing was dangerous.

Exactly, which is an important point to make,

that it is a dangerous thing.

And it should be dangerous.

I mean, if you make it so it's beyond,

you know, approach of safety,

then it takes the mystery and mystique out of the racing,

you know, and Shelby never rode Ford around

on the racetrack in the GT40.

Did he or did he?

Well, I think he probably did, but I don't know.

He wasn't bawling.

Yeah, we had a time there where we had all the Ford executives

out to the airport and ran them around in the cars.

Right, showed them what they would do

and what they were paying for.

I just drove the GT350 around with Henry and...

Oh, how fantastic.

Yeah, that was good.

Yeah, good times, I would imagine.

Very good times.

Well, we'll have to do this again

because I got plenty of more questions, as I said,

and I really enjoyed it.

Thank you so much for being on the show today

and coming to Classic Auto Mall and hanging out with us.

Well, you're welcome, and it's my pleasure to be here.

Oh, and Happy Anniversary.

I just read you just celebrated your 58th anniversary.

Yes, we were married the day after Christmas

when I went to California.

Fantastic, and she's put up with you for this long.

She made me stick.

Oh, that's fantastic.

Anyway, thanks for everybody for listening

and we'll catch you next week.

Talk to you soon in the Classic Auto Mall podcast.

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Classic Auto Mall - #071 - Stewart Howden with Guest, Chuck Cantwell, Shelby America

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