Combustion, Turbo Mezger's and $50k Only Car

We are here to bring you everything and anything surrounding Porsche.

I'm Mike.

I'm Aaron.

And this is P-Car Talk.

Right.

Welcome to another episode of P-Car Talk.

I'm Mike.

And I'm Aaron.

And welcome to the final episode of the year.

That's right.

This is the final episode of the 2025 calendar year.

We will be taking Christmas break off.

And once we get back at it, it will be the new year.

So before we get started, want to go ahead and say, Merry Christmas.

If you celebrate that or any other holiday, I guess the political way to say it is just

say happy holidays, right?

So we're not offending anyone.

So for you to celebrate, be safe out there.

There's a lot of BS as usual always going on in the world.

Appreciate those ones around you and spend some time with them.

And hopefully everyone has a good holiday.

Let's go ahead and thank our people.

Let's do it.

I switched up the order.

Same people kind of.

Sean H, Richard B, Nick F, Matthew G, Leslie N, Ken S, Chris S, and Aaron L.

Thank you guys so much.

I just want to shout out our buddy, Zach, local guy.

He just bought an air-cooled car.

Congratulations to him.

He also become a member.

Excited for him.

He also owns a bunch of other cars.

I don't want to go through his Rolodex just in case he doesn't want people to know his business.

But excited.

It's not his first Porsche.

Not even his second Porsche, but glad to have him.

I think it is his first air-cooled Porsche though.

So good for him.

I just want to shout out to Jack, right Aaron?

Yeah, that's what I am.

He said I was looking at a car.

So I saw the pictures and I was like, hmm, that looks familiar.

I said, oh, Jacksonville?

And so I texted Aaron and I said, hey, there's your car?

And then he goes, he texted me a picture back from his office view down.

He goes, this one?

Yeah, that's me.

So yeah, they connected and so yeah, he said he got a good experience.

Yeah, I can't imagine him not having a good one.

Aaron is the man up there.

So do love him very much.

He has helped a lot of our Peacock Club members, you know, like he helped

Todd out of a pinch in the past.

Like he's helped me, he's helped everybody.

So he's an awesome dude.

So let's get the show rolling.

So big news, 718 news.

So we were under the oppression that it was going to be EV only.

So now there is an announcement that came from Porsche that they are

changing the architecture where it is going to have a combustion engine

that's going to live alongside of the EV release.

So there'll be a combustion option engine.

You and I kind of thought this in the past.

How were they going to do this?

Were they going to kill that car off permanently?

We didn't think that was going to happen, especially since the EV debacle

with every auto manufacturer that that horse has been beaten to sleep.

So we're not going to get into that conversation, but this is good news.

So as my good friend Lee Corso would say, retired college football

analyst, if you don't know who that is, not so fast, my friends.

So if you think you bought the last 718 combustion generation

and you're hanging on to it because you think like, well, there's

never going to be another one.

We're going to be good to go and all that other stuff.

But I think there's another one coming.

So that's your Dennis.

Yeah, in a good way.

That mid-engine car will live on as it should, right?

Like it was going to live on in an EV format.

And you know, there was a lot of people including us that were

pretty sad about that, even though we don't own those cars.

That doesn't mean that we don't like them.

I like having them in the lineup.

I like being able to see that.

I like to see Porsche making those vehicles and dispersing them

and selling them.

So what this does do as well as open the door for any future

GT4 and RS type stuff moving forward within the 718 because

they are changing the architecture of that platform so it can fit

a combustion engine.

So that's good news all the way around in the Porsche camp when

it seems like for the last quarter or even more, there's been a

lot of dismal news coming out of that camp and this is a very

positive thing.

Your thoughts on this?

So my first thing is not that they were always going to do

this, but I would imagine that they were already marching down

the way to doing a combustion engine for this version before

they even had the EV version thought about.

So maybe it's not that big of a lift for them to do this, but

they need to do this.

Is this the dot?

Would this be like the dot 3 version of the 718?

Because I feel like they're almost that point where they

need to revise it or call it something different.

You know how they do things.

They almost need a new model.

You know.

Yeah, I think it's cool that it's happening.

Yeah, I think I'm sure that for nomenclature sake right now,

that's what it's being called.

I'm sure when it's actually launched, it'll probably have

its own chassis designation.

It's probably just one of those things right now where

they don't want to call anything out because they're

still developing this thing and

they're not.

They didn't give a release date or anything like that.

It's more of just kind of a dangled carrot situation where

they're saying, hey, this is coming.

So everybody kind of had their heads hung low or or or high

if you were thought you had something very special that was

last of the make or you know, whatever you decided

was going to be what you're hung your hat on was going

to be a last combustion engine mid engine non supercar

thing from Porsche.

That's not going to be the case.

And not that I take any pride or I guess I wouldn't say pride

but maybe joy and like people that like, oh, I bought

the last one.

We're going to be good to go.

We've seen this before from Porsche where they're like,

hey, we're not going to make this anymore and then they

make something.

It happens over and over again.

I think this goes back to the the old additive of buy

the car because you want the car.

Not because you're hoping it's going to be a future

classic or it's going to be worth money or whatever.

If you're playing the Porsche shell game where it's

Hey, I got to keep buying cars so I can keep getting

allocations game.

If you're in that whole rig of my role, more power to you

if you're into that, but whatever.

I'm just glad that there's they've made the announcement

there's

was like as far as like this redoing things, they pulled

that 993 turbo off the shelf from how many years ago

and made a new one back in the day for just for

Rensport.

So that's a possibility.

I don't think anything's the last the last.

Yeah, and I also I said now that I had time to think

about it, I don't think I think at this moment, they

thought that they weren't going to sell these EVs and

if they don't have anything combustion beside it,

just not going to pay the bills.

I think this goes back to a couple of podcasts ago

when we talked to Mike, the GM at Porsche Clearwater

and he talked about how big of a chunk the Macan and the

718 basically not being in the lineup is taking out of

their production sales numbers, their bottom line

numbers, how much that's impacting it.

And and I'm sure the the lever pullers that are

you know that are high up within Porsche are also

looking at that saying, hey, we need to get these cars

in the line of ASAP like we can't afford to take

a third of our lineup out like after, you know,

especially with all this tariff stuff going on,

nobody's buying EVs from us.

You know, it you don't have to be the smartest guy

in the world like to sit there and look at the numbers

to say, OK, hey, this means less.

Less is not good.

Let's let's do something about this.

It's that simple.

And I think that's that's part of this.

And they know that these sports cars, especially

the mid-engine ones, you know, there's that

we talked about this over and over and over again.

There's this inner Porsche rivalry or all Porsche fans.

But again, there's guys, especially like yourself.

Oh, I'm 9 11 guy, no matter what, come hell or high water.

I'm not I'm not doing anything, right?

Like even though you owned a Boxster, but like you're

just like, I don't if I'm choosing.

I'm picking 9 11, which is fair.

Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, right?

But because of that, if you don't have a car

that competes with a 9 11 anymore or that little brother syndrome

where people are like, well, if they put a GT3 motor in

this car, that car will dominate this car, etc.

They want those conversations to continue.

When you kill that car off, that conversation dies.

So when you're still making the 9 11 and you're not

making the 7 18 combustion engine car anymore,

there's nothing to argue about, right?

That now we're talking about past stuff.

And as we know, as auto manufacturers, they're always

looking towards the future or present anything in the past

doesn't even matter to them.

I mean, they they care about their history, but at the end

of the day, it's what have you done for me lately?

Right?

Like what are the sales doing right now?

Because they can't hang their hats on like, oh, hey,

remember that 2024, you know, GT4 RS that we made?

That was pretty bad ass.

And you're like, yeah, that's great, but now

it's 26 and we're not making one.

So it doesn't matter.

Do you think that I know we're kind of talking about motor

stuff and see if they do anything different.

And I just had the thought that popped up since they have

the four cylinder turbo.

Do you think they do like a little hybrid version of the

four cylinder EV and then a four for a GTS and four for

us?

I mean, I'm not going to split it up, but that would be

kind of interesting if they did it that way.

They made a hybrid and yeah.

Yeah, I don't really know because I don't know if that

just complicates that architecture, especially since

they were probably never expecting to go that way.

I think the 9-11 always had that, I guess, engineering

standpoint of when they re-designed that.

They knew that car was going to go hybrid.

I think they have their hands full as is to just switch

some of the internal setup.

To combustion alone.

I don't know if they want to over complicate things and

throw a hybrid in there.

I would imagine we're not going to see a bunch of variants

of it.

I bet you there's going to be EV and then they're going

to do the whole model line that they do with the

Taycan, right?

Like I think we're going to see a probably a four-wheel

drive version of it because EVs, like all EVs have

a four-wheel drive version.

So, you know, we might see a Cayman EV4 or

something and then we might see a turbo and then

we'll probably see like a base.

I would imagine they'll probably just go with like a

four-liter and it might not be a GT product because

I mean they were making 718 4-0s.

So, I think they might just offer that, you know,

like at a higher level being like, hey, this is

that if you want a combustion engine and you

don't want a GT product on the Cayman platform,

4-0 is your only option.

Now, if you want like a hot version, you can

get the GT4 or the GT4 RS.

I still think those cars are going to be in their line

up because those cars make so much money even though

production numbers are somewhat lower.

They sell all of them.

Like there's never like any like people come in

and they order them and they sell them all.

So, for that fact alone, I think they'll do that.

I think those will be the offerings.

I think there'll be a non-GT Department 4-0.

And then there'll be a GT4 and it'll be a 4-0,

but it'll be a hotter motor, obviously, different

architecture internally to make it a GT product,

obviously suspension, all of those things to make it

stiffer and then there'll be a 4-Rs version.

That's what I think.

Makes sense.

That's what I was kind of thinking about after I said it.

I was like, well, they just had one motor that

simplified things, but they don't always do

the simplest things.

Well, I guess we're all going to have to wait

and see what happens to the lineup.

Yeah, I think they will line up in a full combustion.

Yeah.

I think the whole reasoning behind my my man math behind

that is you want to do as little as possible to take

away from the EV if you want the EV to sell, right?

Like you don't want to you don't want to pair that

with stuff that are it's identical next to it,

meaning like, all right, if you put a 2-liter

motor turbo in a hybrid base type of situation,

a lot of people won't even elect to take the EV, right?

So then that thing is going to be stillborn immediately.

So what they're going to do is probably offer only a high

end version of the combustion engine.

So if you want a base level like Cayenne or Boxter,

you're going to have to buy the base level EV because

there isn't going to be a base level combustion engine.

It's going to be all right.

Now you if you want that, you need to step into the

six-figure category only to get that car.

That that's my thought process and I bet they're they're

thinking the same thing if I if I'm betting.

So we're almost making like an automatic manual

conversation out of just with the different, you know,

motors kind of, you know, like almost forcing their hand

because at the same time, like, you know,

what would be the point of that for them?

Because if eventually they want to move to EV long term,

it makes no sense to hybridize that car.

Like you already have a 911 hybrid.

I don't really see that car as a hybrid.

It doesn't really make any sense.

But I mean, I'm not saying it's impossible.

I mean, obviously anything's possible, but

why even launch the EV if you're going to go hybrid?

So you're just, you know, let him say like, so then

essentially you would have three offerings from an engine

standpoint, you'd have a hybrid, you'd have an EV and you'd

have a combustion out of a car that's not even your flagship.

Like I could see the 911 doing that someday.

But I really don't see the the 718 platform being the

first to their market doing that.

Makes sense.

I mean, this is just now the cash aid that it's going to fly

out the shelves enough for them to have what I would have

believed like 21 different variants at one time.

Yeah, I mean, I think they learned their lesson in that

too, in a way.

I think they realized having too big of a menu

is too much.

You know, you have a few outliers that pick some of

those odd things on that menu.

But at the at the core of that menu,

people are probably picking those six or seven core core

items and then they're not going outside of that.

And I'm sure their research shows that.

So why not dilute that menu some and then get better on

the smaller things.

Like let's say you go from 21 variants to I mean, even

if you just chop seven, like take a third out of that,

go to 14.

Like you can get better at just those 14 instead of

trying to, I don't know, macrame all this BS.

I don't know.

It doesn't make sense.

Do you think we see like a under 3000 pound car?

That's the combustion motor because if they're trying

to get the EV to 3400 pounds, I mean, imagine the big

chunk of that's got to be like the electric motors

and batteries.

I would say probably right around it.

I don't think under.

I would.

I mean, even even the some of the lightest Porsches from

07 weighed like 3050.

So is it going to be under?

And I'm talking about like, you know, 911 GT3 products and

stuff like that.

Maybe I would say realistically.

If you got the stripper version, maybe 3100 pounds.

Maybe.

But that's hard to say because like all of that crap weighs

so much now, you know, what they'll do is those puts eight

particular filters on it and people go to Dundin or soul

and get it all stripped out.

You know, it's just it's it's also they can sell the car

and then you want to hear the car.

So then you the minute you get it, you take all that

crap off of there so then you can hear the car.

So I mean, all that crap weighs, you know, each

particular car.

So I mean, take all of them off.

I mean, you're saving almost 250 pounds right there.

So there's there's your weight saving.

Take all that junk off of the car, right?

But there I get them there.

They're required to do that, which sucks.

So will there be a day?

Obviously, we're combustion engines.

I mean, it has to because I think the bigger story is

the bigger story.

I mean, the bigger story.

I mean, the bigger story is the bigger story.

I think the bigger story in this situation is I know

they're, you know, I guess as far as an auto

manufacturer goes on a smaller level, meaning

like comparing them to Toyota's and, you know,

General Motors Ford, the overall amount of cars

they sell is still a lot less, even though

it's a ton for Porsche.

I wonder if they ever get to the point where

maybe they build a small factory in the U.S.

where it's not as big as it is obviously overseas,

but something smaller because I mean, let's face it,

they sell a lot of cars here.

It would save them a lot of money in the long run.

And if especially with, you know, obviously this

can change depending on who's president.

But right now our mission laws are as chill as

they've been in a very, very long time with

and that is to basically anybody here produces a car

in the U.S. is to benefit them.

So I mean, back in the day, remember the Euro cars,

everybody wanted a real car, right?

Because it wasn't a strict back then.

It's so funny how things have changed when

you fast forward 50 years because you get a mid-year

car or an, you know, or an 80s, you know,

G-body, air-cooled car and you get a Euro car.

That's more power because it has less admission

restricting things on it compared to a U.S. car.

Now it's like rural reversal, right?

Everything in the Europe is being choked out,

admissions, they can't pass admissions,

they can't build cars there because they've

gotten so stringent and strict over there

and the U.S. of all places has gotten pretty

light on its EPA standards and that's due

to our current administrations to be fair.

However, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You know what I mean, BMW has the Spartanburg,

I mean, so then that's what they do to their SUVs

and so it does make sense.

I wonder where they would put it.

I bet you would be L.A.

Probably not because California has a state,

it's really hard to build in.

If I bet money, I would say Texas

because that's centrally located.

So probably Texas and then, you know,

you could sneak across the border for your,

you could have a Mexican Sandovac department

where you could go and do like...

You go down here like, hey,

you can't chrome anything in the U.S., right?

You go to Mexico, that's a different story.

You can go chrome whatever the hell you want.

So, you know, oh, we can't do that kind of thing here.

Well, guess what?

Would you chrome a flare that thing painted

in Juarez Mexico if you want to paint it?

Well, we'll just take it on down there.

It might not come back, but who knows?

Texas Edition.

Exactly.

I don't know.

I mean, it has to be on their radar, right?

Like, do the, you know,

they completely double down and triple down

or whatever the terminology you want to use

on building some EV factory

and they've lost their ass on it, right?

They've lost their house on it.

Dude, if they would have spent a third of that

and just built a manufacturing combustion facility in the U.S.,

a smaller one at that,

they would have been,

they would have been making handover fists, right?

They wouldn't have to have been worried about like,

oh, tariffs and all this other bullshit, right?

Like, they could have just been like, bro,

we make them here now.

Like, we're good.

All U.S. cars are coming out of that place.

We don't, you know, and then their European factory

can focus on just making shit for EU and Asia.

Like, think about that.

What would do to, they're in a good way

for their business dynamic, right?

No shipping cars back and forth.

There's a bunch of different things that would solve.

No delay in shipping, like, all of this stuff, like,

I don't know.

All right, let's move on.

UMB is big as a deal, though.

Yeah, I mean, but think about it.

It wouldn't have to just be for the U.S.

If that plant was, let's just say Texas,

that could just handle the entire western hemisphere, right?

Like, that can be U.S., Canada, South America,

Central America, that could be all of that.

Like, you wouldn't have to mess,

like, the turnaround time on the car would be faster.

Getting the cars to the people would be faster.

Like, all of that stuff would go faster, right?

I mean, I know it's an easy thing to take on initially.

Yeah, Corpus Christi to Jacksonville,

just to make a, just so it has a shipping thing

and you can follow it, keep the app useful.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people may or may not know this.

A lot of, in the western hemisphere,

most cars, whether that be getting made in, you know,

Detroit, Michigan or Flint, Michigan, wherever they are,

they move by rail car.

So they get on a train when they're manufactured

and they move to these depots all over the U.S.

or even in South America.

And that rail system is set up to do exactly that.

So it doesn't need, it can move on land.

It doesn't need to move by water.

So, you know, elements will be almost a non-factor at that point.

Resulted.

Don, just listen to us, man.

Let us run the shit.

We can just come in as consultants.

They don't, I don't need benefits, man.

Just fine.

Just seven figure salary.

It's going to be $299.

Do two hour calls a day, you know,

have it have somebody doing transcription on it.

We're good. We're golden.

Let's move on to the next topic.

So this is an interesting topic, I think.

And I think this, this kind of falls between the cracks a lot

because for the exact reason that we just closed on the last topic,

there's a lot of people in the camps chasing or buying new cars.

So with that chase of the new cars, a lot of the older cars,

either you fall asleep on or you just have assumptions.

And if you're not a buyer, you don't do your research.

You just kind of assume, right?

So what I'm talking about is Metzger engine cars.

Everybody kind of thinks they know, but I, you know,

I've encountered a few people that were pretty knowledgeable about Porsche

and actually weren't sure on this particular topic how I'm going to get to it.

So like 996 turbos and GT3s, they're all Metzger engines, right?

Like, yep, we know that good to go.

Now all 997 GT3s are also Metzger engine cars.

Yep, we get that too.

All 997 turbos are Metzger engine cars, right?

Nope, they're not.

So DOT2s are not Metzger engine cars.

Everybody assumes they are because they're 997s.

All 997 DOT1s are Metzger engine cars.

DOT2 turbos are not.

So when you DOT2 turbos start 2010.

So if you see a 2010 turbo or, you know, where people refer to it as a DOT2,

that is not a Metzger engine car.

They changed the engine that year.

So I think for a lot of folks, the assumption is,

and I'm not saying you don't know what's going on to assume that.

I would say that's a fair assumption.

You should assume that because, you know, leading up to that point,

because it's not a model change, it's a half-tier change, right?

Usually most revisions with DOT2s don't entail an engine change.

Usually.

And I'm talking about Turbo S.

Yeah, I'm talking about standard products.

Obviously GT products change in DOT2s a lot of times,

especially 991 DOT1 and DOT2, right?

They went from a 3.8 to a 4.0.

That's obvious.

However, we're talking about non-GT products.

These are not like, the 997 Turbo is not a GT product.

That is a normal assembly line product that has the Metzger engine

derived from GT stuff, but the DOT2 is not that engine.

So the reason why I bring that up is I did some interesting math

just kind of looking at stuff, and we talked about Turbos, 996 Turbos,

and we have a lot on the show and how much we both like them

and how the bang for the value is all there.

And there's still some, but man, have you looked at those recently?

Like by any chance, by just having to graze across something

or see any of them?

So, like a 100,000 mile car with maybe an accident on it

runs like 55,000.

And that's a coupe manual.

Not talking about tips like we never talk about tips.

So there's some convertibles out there living at 50 to 60.

Manuals, obviously 996 Turbos, but the coupes have gone up.

They're creeping up.

Prime example, if you want something with some color outside of your,

you know, PTS seal gray or a silver car or a black car or any of that stuff,

there is, and now this is the ass that's obviously this is negotiable

like depending on what you pay or whoever pays,

but the ask on this particular car is a 996 Turbo in speed.

Yellow has 40,000 miles.

No accidents.

Manual $95,000 is the ask on that car.

That's in car.

What, two years ago, 65 maybe?

I would say that was probably the number of that car.

So 30,000.

Yeah.

I mean, but it is and it isn't right.

Like it's, it was available.

Like it's not PTS.

Oh, yeah.

But it's covered in a lot.

Yeah.

I'm not.

Yeah.

I'm not trying to say it's not.

But what I'm saying is yes, there are a few of them.

Okay.

So a black car with 55,000 miles on it.

The ask is $75,000.

So my point is, is 996 Turbos have gone up and that pisses me off.

But we've been saying for a long time it's a good deal.

I still think it's a good deal.

95,000 is pretty strong.

Now this next one 997.1 Turbo and guards read 40,000 miles.

Manual obviously.

No accidents.

The ask on that car is 130.

So would you, I want to ask you this, would you rather have the 997.1

guards read or would you rather have the speed yellow?

Tell me why in depth, what you would pick for what reasons?

I don't like the 996 interior as much as I like the 997 interior.

I think they'll be my, my number one reason what I'm choosing the

outside.

I kind of like, I've started like the 996 is more.

So that doesn't bother me.

But creature comfort standpoint, 997 seats and things like that.

I guess I could be changed.

Not a big fan of yellow.

I definitely would do red over those two at that price though.

I mean, that's, that's a lot.

That's a lot.

It's a big price difference for the same motor.

I mean, and then honestly, like for what, like what you said, I think

long-term value, I think the 997 has a lot more ceiling than the

996 does that.

And that's just my opinion.

I feel now it sounds ridiculous to say this and don't get me wrong.

I'm trying to, I'm not trying to underplay this, but I think

$130,000 on a guards red 997.1 manual with no accidents with 40,000

miles.

I think that's a steal.

I think you're stealing that car.

Yeah.

I mean, especially because go put a GT badge on that thing and then

tell me what the cost is.

You know, like that's, that's the thing, like you start getting

into that territory and it's like, well, the power is better.

First of all, there's not that many of them.

I mean, you know, we talk about production numbers, you know, there's

only, they only ever made 150 manual 997.1 guards reds.

It was a normal pallet wheel color.

It wasn't a PTS color.

However, it's a low production car.

Like you just don't see them that often in that number or in that

color, excuse me.

And that price delta between the two seems extreme, but it's not

really.

95 to 130.

That's not that much.

Like it's not that big.

95 a special color versus 130.

I get a special color.

Yeah.

And honestly, like no, no, six figure barrier.

The 997, like it's a, it's a, it's a better car.

Like it has the variable turbos.

They're just, it's better.

It's a better car.

Um, now aesthetically, like some people may want the other

one, you know, you can do whatever you want with it.

But I think longterm as far as overall acceptance, I, who

knows, only the future will tell us, right?

Like I, I don't have a crystal ball.

I knew, I knew 996s were heavily, heavily undervalued for a

long time.

It seems like now, um, people are have woken up.

I don't want to say now, but over the last two years, I would

say people have woken up to them because getting some super

great deal on a 996 turbo just doesn't really seem available

anymore.

You just don't see them.

I mean, you can get one if maybe it has a minor on the

car facts.

Um, if you're okay with that, like that stuff doesn't bother

me.

I mean, if you're going to drive the car anyways, like

most of those are drivers anyway.

So, you know, you got to remember 996 turbos lived at

a point where they weren't super valuable for a while.

And so the people that had them, they didn't like park them

in garages and say, okay, hey, this is going to be

special someday.

They drove them.

So most of them have miles on them, to be honest with

you.

Um, and anything basically above 10,000 is outside of, I

would say above 5,000, excuse me, is above collector

grade, right?

So just drive it.

If you get, do you think that I would choose early to

choose a 997?

I mean, only because I think I kind of figure that because

of the rise of the 996, you know, it's a cliche term.

I hate saying it, but it's there's facts in it.

The rise of that tide is going to raise a 997.

They will not be, this will be a joke and probably not

even a year.

It'll be faster than that.

You and I will have this same December conversation.

If we can, if I remember, if I pull the notes again and

say, Hey, remember, we talked about 997 turbos last

year that you could get a guard's red with no

accents or 40,000 miles, which is pretty low still.

Manual for 130.

Well, that car now is like 190.

You know, I really, really believe in eight years

time because what's happening and what always happens,

it happens with air cools.

It happens with everything.

It just pushes the money around what it, like people

want 9 11s, people want Porsches and they have a

certain amount of money and they're like, Okay,

I'm going to go get this.

And then maybe some people stretch to make that

happen or some people see, Hey, this car's got

room to grow.

I'm going to buy it now.

While it's cheap, there's all different types of people

that are buying these cars.

But the difference is there's not that many of them to

begin with at all.

So because of that, that number just dries up.

Right.

Like there's just, they're not there.

Like once they're all bought up, they're bought up.

They're not making any more of them.

Yep.

I agree.

I was going to say, like, do you think that we're

early to it, but we might see like the 993,

9964 or the 993, which I would equate to the 997

hits and the price starts hitting way up there.

And then maybe because the 996 looks different,

kind of like the 9964 does that it moves,

moves above the 997 eventually.

Or do you think, I mean, cause once they cross that

magic six figure mark, it's never coming back down.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't think they will just because I think

the 997 has a headstart.

Like they pretty much, I mean a cheap 997 turbo that has

like a blemish on it.

Like let's just call it a black car that has like 75,000

miles on it has a minor accident on car facts,

goes for like anywhere between 90 and like a hundred.

And that, and that's probably, I would say the low end

of what you would, what you would want to own.

And I'm talking about somebody who's a driver,

not a collector obviously.

Like that's probably the low end of it because it still

probably has good maintenance.

Whoever owned it before you bought it probably because

it did have a minor on the car facts and they got

it a little bit cheaper, but it was repaired.

Right.

Obviously you could see, you know, the, you know,

the extent of the damage on like the car facts

reports are pretty good.

So the fact that like the base ones are around

like 90 to 100, like it already has a higher

a higher entry point.

So that what that means is it just has a higher ceiling.

Right.

So like the 996 has is on the way up,

but you know, maybe some outliers like like a speed

yellow with super low miles or something super special.

You know, like they didn't make a lot of white ones.

So you see a blizzard white with maybe fucking

black interior 996 with low miles probably go

for a big number.

That's understandable.

But I wouldn't count that as the as a calm.

I would say the core cops on that on the 996

are still living in the 60 to 70 range, which is

still an insane number because I remember those

cars all day long are selling at 40 and you

and I three, four years ago having conversations

about it's like, how the hell can you buy

one of these cars at $40,000?

Like they're that's way too much car.

Like if you had, I don't know.

And I'm sure there's people that have done it that

are really into cars that just have disposable

income and just like, I'm going to go buy 10

speed yellows because they just don't exist.

And I'm going to go get all the little mile ones

and just sit on them because they're modern enough

and hook them up to battery tenders and get

the oils changed on them and barely drive them

and then just put them back in the market

in 10 or 15 years and basically make 100 grand

on every single car that you bought.

That's a, that's a real possibility.

Here.

But I, yeah.

Yeah.

But I think that the reason why I brought that up is

A, they're, they're not all created

equal to begin with.

So if you're searching for one

of these cars, be mindful of that.

Dot twos are not that's your engine cars.

So if that matters to you, now they did

make manual dot twos.

There wasn't a lot of them just because

they were on, but it is not a Metsger engine car.

Do I believe the Metsger engine cars will carry

more value longterm? Absolutely.

I don't care if it's a, I don't care if you're

buying a 997.2 manual and it's like, oh, it's

the last of the, you know, those people are

the phrase those folks are hanging on to is

it's the last manual Porsche turbo made

outside of specialty turbos.

Right.

Like we're not talking about sport classic.

We're not talking about some one-off stuff.

We're not talking about production line

turbos. It was the last one.

Okay. Fair enough.

Is that enough weight to hang on to that car

to make it surpass a Metsger engine manual

turbo? Not in my eyes.

What's your thoughts on that?

No, because I mean it's, because then you

could just say that with your, the one with

the Metsger and manual was the last

manual Metsger and you get the same thing.

Like it's just in the two different worlds.

I think the pedigree over time when people

started learning like what the lineage of

the car is that it's a GT1 motor essentially

and then how it was derived.

It's got a special sauce for a good story.

One like a well-built motor

and just good driver's cars in general

for all those models.

They did.

So there was a 2009 one and a half

and you got the Metsger motor manual

and you got the dot two things.

But there's not that many of those around.

So there's a, there's almost a dot two version.

We'll talk to you later.

That's the only thing that gets close to that.

But no, I don't see the, I don't see

the non Metsger motors being worth

more than the other ones just because

they're the last one.

Yeah, I mean I don't think that,

I think the Metsger motors will always be

a play on our friend King Metsger.

They'll be the king, right?

Like I think those cars that carry a Metsger engine,

it's a period of time.

For those that don't understand the difference

between that, you know, we've covered it

in depth before, but it's basically

a modern air cooled block is what it is.

The 964 block.

Yeah, we looked under, we've been under

the 996 turbo I had.

It's got a 964 stamp on the bottom of the block

where it's like, dude, this is a 964 block.

So all of those that weren't knowledgeable,

you know, like all of the, you know,

the polo shirt guys tucked into pleated

khakis that are parking their cars on the golf course

that were like, I can't believe they stopped

making air cooled cars.

Those guys were literally asleep at the wheel

like while they're at the country club

drinking their like loaded sugar fricking,

you know, Manhattan's and, you know,

I'm done buying Porsches.

They missed the boat because those were technically

water cooled, air cooled cars.

Because all of those Metsger engine blocks

have lineage back to air cooled stuff.

And if you can kind of start to see that

from an education to educate yourself to say, hey,

that is another reason why all of those,

it's not just the name and the nomenclature behind it.

There's actual science behind it.

That's why those cars are coveted so much

for the people that have the engineering mindset

to understand that to say these cars are special.

Yes, they're modern.

They're not air cooled, but they are special

because they have a direct like their heart

is from the heart of the air cooled cars.

That ended in 2010, like fully,

like it was really over then.

There was no, there was no,

there was nothing left from the air cooled cars anymore.

That was it.

So I think there's some science behind that,

especially marketing science.

And I think those cars will be always looked at

in my personal opinion, all of them

that carry a Metzger engine

will always be looked at

a little bit more in a brighter light

than anything else

than the more of the modern era, right?

Like, and I'm not, again, I'm not talking about STs.

I'm not talking about 911Rs.

I'm not talking about all,

I'm talking about actual 911s

that aren't specialty cars

that made more than a thousand of them.

These cars will, to the day we die,

these cars will outlive us.

They will be special.

They always will be special.

And the more people that get educated about them,

they'll get even more of a folklore.

They'll get even more educated.

There'll be more,

there'll be more people wanting them

just because, again, it's supply and demand.

They're not making any more of them.

They don't exist.

So the ones that do exist

are the ones you can buy.

That is it.

Like, there's no,

hey, I'm going to wait till next year

until they make another one.

That is just not going to happen.

And because of this,

as the sand runs out of that time thing,

these things just get more and more expensive,

more and more expensive.

Anyways, but I do think there is a sweet spot.

It's expensive,

but even you want to drive a special car

and you're okay with a minor accident

or something like that

and it was repaired right,

you can go buy a $95,000 997.1 manual in black.

Probably has some miles on it,

but that's great because then you can drive it

and you'll have a special car

and it'll always be special regardless.

And then eventually you hang on to it long enough

and long as you don't get in another accident

while you own it

and you hang on to it 10, 15, 20 years, whatever,

that minor won't even matter anymore.

That stuff will eventually just,

well, yeah, it had one back in 2010,

it got rear-ended,

but it was a bumper cover.

And it was like, oh, okay, no big deal.

And it'll still be valuable.

But anyways, I thought that was a good educational,

because I mean, initially with the Porsche stuff,

it's easy to get in the muddy water, right?

Like where it's like,

oh yeah, Metzger engine, they're all,

everything 997, 996, Metzger engine,

as long as it's a turbo or GT3.

I've heard many people say that.

Kind of, kind of.

Well, I mean, because that confusing part goes with

the 997.2 GT3s and that's,

they just go .2 and everything.

I would say going back on my choice of 997,

the only reason to choose a 996,

if would be a little bit more variability,

because you can take off the half shaft

that connects the front

and so you can take the all-wheel drive off of it

and make it a two-wheel drive car.

A lot easier than you can with the 997s.

Because the 997 is a real electronic diff.

Yep.

And I assume that's probably why a lot of people

do like the 996.

That is one reason why I really like the 996,

because it did have that ability

where you could make it a two-wheel drive

if you wanted to go that way.

And then you could really get your version,

I would say the peasant version

of the GT2 essentially, right?

Because that thing's not coming down either at the price.

No, that thing, literally,

they were reasonable for,

I guess people figured it out.

Obviously, I'm not going to take point to that.

A month or two.

They were normal.

I mean, they were normal for a while.

And then all of a sudden, like overnight,

I don't know if enough people figured it out.

Probably people like with SWAC and, you know,

Collective Auto and U-Drive,

all of these boutique places that got their hands on them

and they priced them up.

And that's where they should be at,

because they are special cars

and they made so few of them,

which was just unbelievable to me

that they were so cheap.

I mean, you could buy one for like 130.

And like a good one.

Like it wasn't like, oh, it was a ragged out piece of crap

that sat in somebody's garage that was beat up

and a bunch of accidents.

But that went away really fast.

Anybody that were friends of mine

that had the money, I was trying to push into it.

I was like, just get one.

I know you don't even want this right now,

but just buy one of these

and just store it or something

because you would have made 100 grand in a year, essentially,

if you would have turned around and sold it.

And eventually, I think that car is going to be worth

really, really stupid money

just because there are so few of them

and then we're going to have this conversation.

It's like, hey, did you see at Bonham's the other day

that when we're 65, 70 years old,

they're like, one sold for $560,000.

It's like, holy crap, dude.

Are you serious?

I still think that's a deal.

Yeah, it's still under value.

That car, that's a million dollar car.

What are they doing?

Got a million.

Yeah.

Anyways, so let's...

All right.

So if you haven't got your Christmas gifts together yet,

this is a perfect opportunity to buy someone special,

a Peacock Club membership.

What comes with your membership?

Well, first and foremost,

the most important part of that

is that you get an invitation

to come to our coveted annual drive.

That home base is Toboco Lodge, right, Aaron?

What else do they get with their membership?

So we've done a couple things.

So we have a cars and coffee one.

So if you do cars and coffee one,

go buy your coffee,

which, no, I think one person's taking us up on that.

But the main thing is the,

just Peacock Club membership,

which supports us, number one,

to get us out to anything and everything

we can have time to do,

like DRT and stuff like that.

But what they get is

decals.

We have

the giveaways,

which is most important because we're doing that every month,

whether you see it or don't see it.

I mean, it's still,

still happening whether the whale's spinning or...

Which is bad, because you get so much cool stuff.

Like we have given away

thousands of dollars worth of stuff

over the last seven years of,

because it's a monthly giveaway.

I mean, that stuff adds up fast.

You know how Porsche stuff is.

I mean,

I think the cheapest thing

we've ever given away.

It was like maybe 150 bucks.

And then the most expensive stuff we've given away

between like eight or $900

in a monthly giveaway.

So it's up there.

Easily.

Easily between watches and models.

And then with the,

with the higher end for the kimchi crew,

we're doing shirts, decals,

a bunch of other stuff.

We do a yearly gift

and that just depends on what we can find.

It's super special that we will send out

and kind of let you in on that things.

The other thing I'm thinking about,

we'll talk offline.

I'm thinking about adding some more stuff to that.

Because it's more and more,

kind of you said it.

I don't know how we do it,

but I feel like some people need some,

some Porsche help,

maybe a consulting type thing on there.

So when they go to buy,

even if it's their first air cool,

their first Porsche,

I think we could be on there

and kind of guide them through that.

And then like the other thing we talked about was,

just doing a live stream every month.

They will send an email out.

It'll be a normal Porsche podcast,

like we do here,

but just like this,

but you can get,

you'll have a link,

pop in there,

see what happened,

and that sort of thing.

So that's pretty much it.

And we also like,

yeah, for example,

like this hat,

we gave away like four or five of these.

We gave away some co-cats.

We give away stuff you can't even buy.

Like stuff that was like given to people from Porsche,

like we were able to get,

secure some of this stuff from Porsche.

So it's not even just about money.

It's not even just like,

oh, I can,

I have all the money in the world.

I can just buy that.

Well, then why don't you have one then?

Because you can't,

you can't buy this stuff.

Like this, this stuff,

Porsche never sold like these hats,

for example,

like they literally just gave them away.

And if you got one,

when you were there,

that was it.

There was no scheduled like,

you know,

hey, everybody that's on this drive,

we're going to eat at this time.

Like if you were there and they showed up,

and you were around,

they gave you a hat.

That's how it worked.

Like we were there multiple times at multiple races,

and they just came out and Porsche ambassadors were out there

handing out hats and they were giving them away.

And we turned around,

you know,

we had a couple of our own.

And then we gave away a ton of them.

So people are like,

man, I would have never got one of these

because I didn't go to those events

because I have a family or I have work.

And I can't even buy one of those

because they're selling them for like

a thousand dollars on eBay,

which is ridiculous, right?

So it's like, we just, we didn't chart.

Like if you had a membership,

you got one for free.

If your name was pulled on the draw, right?

Like it was that simple.

And people are, you know,

all the time like,

hey, I need one of those hats.

I'm like, yeah, I do too, Jackass.

Have fun with that.

Go find another one.

They're Henn's teeth.

So that, you know, like people,

I mean,

it sounds like sweat stain.

Like Aaron has a couple that are stand up.

We know a couple of people have them

because they're coveted.

It was like, oh, I want one of those.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

I bet you want an allocation for a GT3 RS

or an ST2.

Don't you?

You're one of those guys.

Get the fuck out of here, man.

Like, but anyways, you get the point.

So moving on from that topic,

become a member.

It helps us.

It helps you.

You get to do some cool stuff.

You get free giveaways.

All of this stuff's autopilot for you, man.

We make it as easy as possible for you.

All you gotta do is sign up

and then come to the drive

and then ask anybody it's ever been on it.

It's the time of their life.

They get all this free stuff too when they come.

It's amazing.

So I hope that you do join

in all seriousness,

not trying to plug it as shameless plug.

We really, really do appreciate

the current members we have.

We would really, really appreciate it.

If you are a listener

and you're on the fence

or haven't been on the fence,

if you do join,

it means a world to us.

I really, really do need that.

All right.

So last topic before we close out

for this year.

I sent this to Aaron.

We would love to hear from you guys

because I bet our listeners

know a lot more about Porsche stuff than us.

We are just two jack-offs up here

talking about stuff sometimes.

And you know what?

Some of the people that I run into

or Aaron runs into

and we're at races

or wherever we're at,

we're like, man, that guy

is way more knowledgeable than us.

We need to talk to that guy.

But in all seriousness,

please tell us what you would pick

on this topic

because send us a DM,

send us an Aaron will post a thing

on our Instagram.

We want to see that comment section blow up.

When this comes out,

he'll post this question on there.

And I want to see what everybody has to say

because I genuinely am interested,

not because I want to see the just engagement.

I generally want the engagement,

but I want to see what you guys have to say

because I'm really, really interested.

So I pose this question to Aaron

to close out the year.

Since it's Christmas

and we're in the spirit,

we've got $50,000 for Christmas

to buy a Porsche.

You don't have any other car.

This is going to be your only car.

You can play any situation that you want.

It doesn't matter.

You don't have any other car,

but it has to be...

You can't buy multiple cars.

You can't play this.

Hey, I'm going to divvy the money up

because I'm crafty with my cash.

It's $50,000 all in.

You spend it.

If you have any leftover, that's fine.

You just can't go over prices right style.

So I want to hear what you guys would spend

for $50,000 in the Porsche world.

I really, really do want to hear it.

Aaron, do you have your car ready?

Do you have your reasoning why you picked it?

I want to know what you picked for $50,000.

Well, it'd be a shocker.

So it's going to be...

I'm still making sure I was within that realm

because I thought I found something,

but I think it's more expensive than I thought it was.

But...

So I would try to find, even if it was

a little bit more of a...

So you didn't do any damn research?

I did do research.

Calm it down.

I did.

It's just hard for me to pick one car.

I like splitting it up.

No, I was always going air-cooled.

Those rules in there.

I know.

So I'm going air-cooled.

Okay.

SC.

I'm surprised.

Maybe your only car.

So you're going SC.

My only car.

I mean, well, I am.

I'm going SC.

The more and more I keep seeing these things,

the more I'm kind of like,

well, 96 more, obviously.

That's out of the realm there.

But I know that I could find something

an interesting color.

I don't have a specific one

picked out, but like red would probably be

what I would hunt down if I was hunting.

Maybe like the chiffon one that I found

the one time, maybe something like that.

If I could find a color.

Mainly because it's

one, it's not carbureted.

So I've seen something.

It's a newer air-cooled motor-ish.

If I could find

one with the G-50 in it,

that would be ideal.

It goes on all the rallies.

It gets to go anywhere.

It's kind of modern enough

where it's not a nightmare

to be turning it on in cold weather.

And I guess super hot weather.

I guess anything could be terrible for those air-cooled.

But something where it's modern-esque

still has the ability to be back-dated

or for, like it has

whatever personality I want to at the end of the day.

Safaried.

Pilted my 50 grand once I decided

I'm bored.

That sort of thing.

I think that's my reason.

I just feel like that's

to do it all.

It's a 9-11, so through that.

I like it. Good choice.

I did not expect that.

That's why I love playing this game sometimes.

Because I did not expect you to go

air-cooled.

I definitely did not expect you to go that air-cooled.

Proud of you.

So I picked

2007

997.1

S manual.

Not special color.

I found the exact car.

It was

bright at the number.

It's like 48, 9.

No accidents.

Silver, black interior.

But the reason why I picked it, since

I threw the rules out there,

it's my only car.

It's still manual.

I think

secret

safe money is

997 C2S

manuals.

I think they're great cars.

I think there's a lot of

room there someday.

I think these will be

great cars.

But in total transparency,

Erin and I don't discuss this

prior.

I feel like this has a lot of

heritage

to an SC

or to a G

body 32

Carrera.

I feel like shares a little bit, a lot of

that.

Just more of a modern take on it.

It's naturally aspirated.

I don't know if most of them,

unless you optioned it

from factory, we're

slant back, right?

Obviously there's active arrow on a C2,

but it has the classic lines.

That's kind of why I picked it as well.

It can do daily duties.

It's modern enough for that.

Where

knock on what it shouldn't leave you stranded.

You could drive it to work.

You could drive it to meet up with friends.

You could also go drive it in the mountains.

It's very versatile.

I would use the back seat

as a storage area.

You got the front storage area.

That's where

I would go with my money just because

I think there's room there.

I think you could grow with that car.

I think it's safe money to park

as well as yours.

You're not going to lose money on an SC.

If you put 50 in,

you're definitely at a minimum.

You'll get 50 out when you sell it.

It's a C2S.

If you have that 50 grand

and you're just like,

hey, I want to buy a Porsche.

This is where I want to be at.

Those are two options right there.

Obviously if you're a hardcore guy like Aaron,

you're like, hey man,

I'm here for it. I'm going to send it.

Whatever happens, happens.

I'm here for the adventure if it leaves me stranded

or needs stuff or needs a rebuild.

I'm good with that.

I kind of picked mine just because

but I think yours has a really cool

nostalgia thing too.

I think that

sends a vibe

if you're a type of person

that's

all-in kind of person.

I think that's a cool vibe where you're just like, yeah.

They're like, wait a minute.

This 1982

SC is your only car.

You're like, this is my only car.

They're like, there's some bad assness

to that.

They're like, holy shit dude,

you're nuts, but that's cool.

I'm a little less nuts when it comes to that

I guess.

But they're like, hey, still

0708 Carrera,

C2S,

still a cool car.

Got a lot of respect, got a lot of love.

And

it's one of those things where it's kind of like

like I said,

it's got a lot of room in it

so it can do pretty much everything.

You know, outside of maybe

living in the snow, then maybe you'll see 4S

but

I just saw 4S

for less.

But I would

I debated buying

a 996 C4S

at that money, but I really

wanted to get into a 997

and I was able to find like

there wasn't a lot, to be honest.

There was like two that were under 50.

There wasn't a bunch.

In this exercise

what I ended up seeing

as well is the only

996 Turbo I could find

for that 50 mark

was a convertible.

And I'm like, dude, I'm not

I can't have a convertible as my only car.

Like that's just not going to work.

So that was out.

So gone is the day where you could just buy

the closest one I could find was

a

I think it was like $54,000

and it had an accident

and I think it had

like 90,000 miles on it

had pretty good maintenance, but I'm like

I got to stay true to the game.

It's above the price range.

I can't. Well, I'm going to

I'm going to work extra and make a couple

for extra grand and make that.

No, I was like, all right.

Well, then on top of that too,

like I if I'm

like I looked at it this way, if I'm stretching to buy

the car like I wanted to

I wanted to kind of buy something

that was, you know,

not too complicated, meaning like

didn't need coolant lines pinned. It didn't need

any of this stuff. Like I could just get into it.

Maybe do a PPI

no more scoring. I'm like, okay, cool.

I can just drive this car and have it for a while.

And, you know, let's say I

drove it for five years. Like I could

out of worst case scenario, I paid for maintenance

and I sell it for 50 grand in five years.

That's a win. Like that's a huge win.

And you be in the same situation

like you change oil, like tires, brakes, whatever

as long as it didn't do anything major.

Like if you paid 50 for it, like

you could easily get 50 right back out of that car.

For sure. So there you

I mean, there's

some good deals here. I just I just saw one which

I don't know that I would get it

but they made it like a 993

wide body situation

from an SC

but it was actually

about maybe less than 50.

Yeah, I would say about

some like really wonky stuff like that.

Like I would actually is basic

like if you're dailying it too

you don't want somebody's like

no project

pipe dream, I guess that they kind of like

splash together, right?

Like you if you're going to mod it

like long as they're botons, that's

fine. But if you get some like heavy mods

as your only daily like that's some

that's amateur hour shit right there

because you're just asking for

like you're asking for a problem, right?

Like I think I think you picked a good car

I think I picked a good car like very

parallel differences but

some lineage shared between those two

cars, right? You know manual

rear wheel drives

I wouldn't say basics

but kind of basics for their era, you know

and

one's classic, one's a little

a modern classic and

I just like playing this exercise every

once in a while because the market always

changes, right? Like even career

s's are up a lot so

to be able to bag one at 50, you know

even if you have to pay 55 for one

I still think that's

like people are like, whoa, you know, I don't have

GT3 money and that's such a good

car, you know, if

you have

if you can get a

$55,000 car man that is a

$55,000 car that is awesome, you know

and some people are like, yeah, but it's a

2007 or an eight. I can't believe

I would pay that much for that car. It's like

okay, so go buy

a $20, $25,000 car

will that car be worth 50

grand in five years?

No, but that 997

will be that asset that

he will be, promise you that

I am the 997 wasn't

it was in the 80s

whenever it was

so be

adjusted for that and you're probably in the

100 something

range and so you're getting that for

50

Well, I don't have anything else

to say

I think we talked about everything

so I think I'm good

by membership

by NSC

along with your 997

Yeah, there you go. Hey, you guys have

a great holiday

you guys celebrate if you don't celebrate

you know

be safe out there, have fun

spend some time with some friends and family

drive your cars, right?

Yep

I'll put some keys in your stuff

Thank you so much for listening to this episode

of Peacart Talk

connect with us on Instagram at

PeacartTalk or online at

PeacartTalk.com

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