BMW’s Z1 gets the full Carmudgeon treatment: a rare, non-US roadster built in small numbers as a “Zukunft” (future) tech showcase. The hosts dig into its concept-car vibe—thermoplastic/fiberglass body on a steel perimeter structure, electrically dropping doors, and a first-for-BMW multi-link rear axle. They debate whether it’s a meaningful BMW milestone or an evolutionary dead end, then compare its real-world driving: refined, composed, and surprisingly competent, but not dramatically more exciting than an E30.
This week, Derek and Jason both drive the BMW Z1 - the often-forgotten two-seat roadster that established BMW's Z brand in the late 1980s. Sharing the same chassis and drivetrain with the E30 325i, it's often been overlooked by many as just an E30 convertible with cool doors.
But is there more than meets the eye? As it turns out, yes - much more...
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Visit http://JasonSentMe.com to get a Hagerty Guaranteed Value (TM) collector-car insurance quote!
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Historically, the "Z" in BMW nomenclature stands for "Zukunft", or "future" in German. While the Z brand became associated with roadsters only, the Z1 debuted far more than just two seats and a folding soft top. The belt-driven doors were only one feature of the Z1 that made it ahead of it's time - multi-link rear suspension, removable body panels, and a host of other forward-thinking innovations made it far more advanced for its time than most give it credit for.
This week's subject of Carmudgeonation brings some very interesting foresight on BMW's history and collectability as a brand - tying in the 507, Z8, and even the i3 into discussion. Don't skip this one!
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
"Okay. This is the Carmuggin show, which is driven by Hagerty, which explains why I have a Hagerty hoodie on."
Hagerty is a company that’s big in the classic-car world. They insure and cover collector cars, so it fits the theme of this episode.
Hagerty is a well-known classic-car insurance and media company. In the context of this episode, it signals the show’s focus on enthusiast and collector cars rather than mainstream daily drivers.
"Warm out. We have a convertible. [102.3s] Are those things related?"
A convertible is a car with a retractable roof, typically either a fabric soft top or a power-operated hard top. Converting to open-air driving changes how the car feels and can affect structural rigidity and weather sealing.
"It's chassis code. It's not anything different... It's a chassis code. So this is an E30."
A chassis code is basically BMW’s internal “model ID” for the car’s platform. It’s how you tell what underlying body/chassis a car is based on.
A chassis code is BMW’s internal designation for a vehicle platform/body/chassis generation. It helps distinguish different models that may share some components while still being different cars structurally.
"It's an E36 with E30 rear end. That's the short wheelbase. That's the hatchback."
Short wheelbase means the car is “shorter” between its front and rear wheels. That can make it feel more nimble and change how it drives.
Short wheelbase means the distance between the front and rear axles is shorter than on a longer-wheelbase version. Shorter wheelbases typically make a car feel more compact and can change handling and stability characteristics.
"This is an E30 with an E36 for suspension. What? Yeah. Technically, it was not yet the E36 suspension because this car came out."
An E30 is a BMW 3 Series from the 1980s. It’s a popular car to modify, and here they’re talking about mixing parts from a later BMW 3 Series suspension.
The BMW E30 is the 3 Series generation that debuted in the early 1980s and is known for its simple, tunable chassis. In this segment, the host is describing an E30 that has been fitted with suspension components associated with the later E36 generation.
"Z stands for Zukunft, which means future in German. So this is future one."
“Zukunft” is German for “future,” and the hosts connect it to the “Z” in BMW Z1. This is part of the car’s branding story: BMW positioned the Z1 as a forward-looking, technology-forward project.
Concept
Foschung
"BMW love, the Germans love to be like, this is the new Mercedes F400. F means Foschung, which is research. And so they all have these weird names about like,"
The transcript appears to reference “Foschung,” which is likely a mis-transcription of “Forschung,” German for “research.” The hosts are explaining the naming logic behind BMW’s “F” reference as “research,” tying it to the idea of technology showcases.
"So the idea behind this car was let's make a car out of thermoplastic... all of this to say the Z1 was not sold in the United States... the three sort of main things that make this car different than other BMWs of the moment were the Z-axle..."
The BMW Z1 is a special BMW roadster. It’s talked about here because it has some unusual engineering choices compared with other BMWs from the same time.
The BMW Z1 is a distinctive roadster from BMW, known for its unusual engineering and limited availability in some markets. In this segment, the hosts focus on what makes the Z1 technically different from other BMWs of its era.
"So the idea behind this car was let's make a car out of thermoplastic. Is that the unifying concept?"
Thermoplastic is a plastic that you can heat up and shape, then it hardens again when it cools. In cars, it can help with weight and manufacturing.
Thermoplastic is a type of plastic that can be heated and reshaped, then solidifies again when cooled. Using thermoplastic in a car’s structure or body parts can reduce weight and allow different manufacturing approaches compared with traditional metals.
"So the three sort of main things that make this car different than other BMWs of the moment were the Z-axle... the first multi-link rear axle that BMW did... So this was BMW's first multi-link."
A multi-link rear axle uses multiple arms to hold the rear wheels in better control. That usually helps the car handle more predictably when you drive hard or over bumps.
A multi-link rear axle uses several control arms (links) to locate the rear wheels more precisely than simpler axle designs. This can improve handling and ride behavior by controlling wheel movement under acceleration, braking, and cornering.
"Yes, I was just going to say in response to whom and what?... This is now, remember, almost a decade after Mercedes did a multi-link."
Mercedes is mentioned because they used a similar multi-link rear suspension idea earlier than BMW. The hosts use it to show how suspension tech developed over time.
Mercedes is referenced here as the earlier adopter of a multi-link rear axle design relative to BMW’s Z1. The comparison is used to frame the Z1’s suspension as a late entry into that specific technology trend.
"This was the first time we'd ever seen electrically dropping doors from a BMW. So it may be also the last time anyone has seen it from anyone."
They mean the door opens by moving downward using a motor. It’s not a normal hinge-swing door, so it needs extra engineering to make it work safely.
“Electrically dropping doors” describes a power-operated door that lowers downward rather than swinging open normally. This usually requires a complex linkage and careful packaging so the door can travel into the body without interfering with the window or seals.
"And so the door goes down into the body, into the side sill, and the window goes into the door all at the same time."
The side sill is the strong lower part of the car’s side, near the floor. If the door has to drop down into the body, the sill has to be shaped to make room.
The side sill is the structural rocker panel area along the bottom of the car’s side. When a door drops into the body, the side sill often becomes a key constraint because it must provide space for the door’s travel while still protecting occupants and supporting the body.
"There are two types of car doors that work really well. There's a hinged door and then there's a sliding door."
A hinged door is the normal door that swings open on hinges. It’s common because it’s straightforward and easy to use.
A hinged door is the conventional type that swings open on hinges at the front or rear edge. It’s widely used because it’s predictable, easy to operate, and doesn’t require complex vertical or horizontal packaging.
"There's a hinged door and then there's a sliding door. They both work incredibly well."
A sliding door opens by moving sideways instead of swinging. It can be helpful when parking space is tight because it doesn’t need as much swing-out room.
A sliding door moves horizontally along the body, often used to save space in tight parking or for easier access. The hosts contrast it with the BMW Z1-style approach, noting that hinged and sliding doors tend to work well in practice.
"I just remember hopping into that and an E28M5 with 11,000 kilometers on it..."
The E28 M5 is an older BMW M5—an early “M” performance model. They’re saying they got into one and drove it, then kept it for a short time afterward.
The E28 M5 is the first-generation BMW M5, built on the E28 5 Series platform. It’s a classic performance sedan/coupe-era M-car, and in this segment it’s referenced as the specific BMW the speaker drove during the Monterey Car Week trip.
"If you made those pop-up headlights, you would, you could see the family resemblance..."
Pop-up headlights are headlights that slide out from the front when you turn them on. When they’re closed, the front of the car looks cleaner or different.
Pop-up headlights are headlamps that retract into the body when not in use and rise for illumination. They often change the car’s visual “face” and can make design details—like grille shape—look different depending on whether the lights are up or down.
"It kind of, the whole thing to me,
it feels like a concept car that sort of ended up in production,
which is I think probably the coolest thing about the entire car."
A “concept car” is a prototype built to showcase new design ideas, technologies, or styling directions—often not intended for mass production. The speaker’s point is that the Z1’s interior/exterior styling feels like it came straight from a concept, but was actually produced.
"Plastic molds for the volume.
I mean, so speaking of volume,
how many of these things approximately were made?"
Here “volume” means the number of cars that were produced. They’re asking how many of these BMW Z1 roadsters exist.
In automotive production talk, “volume” usually means how many units were built. The speaker is transitioning from design/material choices to production scale, asking roughly how many BMW Z1s were made.
"Was it in their intent to have it be a limited production car? Or would they have sold more?"
A “limited production car” is intentionally built in relatively small quantities, often to create exclusivity or to test a concept. The discussion here centers on whether BMW’s Z1 strategy was meant to cap demand, and how production numbers affected its reputation and market impact.
"No, no, there was a big recession, which I think. Killed off everything. I mean, it killed off so many."
A recession is a broad economic downturn that reduces consumer spending power. In the segment, the recession is blamed for killing off “frivolous” and “premium” purchases, which affected the market success of the cars discussed.
"Anything frivolous. Anything premium. Any of the cars that I've covered for revelations that came out in that period all were marketplace failures..."
The “premium segment” refers to higher-priced vehicles aimed at buyers willing to pay more for brand, comfort, and features. The speakers argue that during the recession, even premium cars struggled because demand softened.
"Any of the cars that I've covered for revelations that came out in that period all were marketplace failures because no one had the money to buy a Chizetta, Marota."
“Marketplace failures” here means cars that didn’t sell well enough to be considered successful in the market. The speakers connect these failures to the recession and reduced demand for premium, niche, or expensive vehicles.
"...And I think that segment of the market was largely encumbered by economic realities. Oh, the pores are revolting again."
“Economic realities” refers to the practical constraints of the economy—like job insecurity, reduced credit availability, and lower discretionary spending. The speaker uses it to explain why certain luxury cars struggled even if they were otherwise appealing.
"And my understanding with the E36 compact was that it had the trailing arm suspension from an E34 packaging reasons..."
Packaging reasons means “it has to fit.” Even if a design is better, it may not be possible if there isn’t enough space in the car’s body for the parts.
“Packaging reasons” refers to the physical constraints of fitting components into a vehicle’s body and underbody. Here it explains why BMW used a simpler trailing-arm setup in the E36 compact instead of a multi-link rear suspension.
"Yeah. The intake itself, maybe there's a K&N filter or something in there, [1097.8s] but my God, it sounds good."
The intake is how air gets into the engine. If the intake is changed, it can change how the car sounds and how it feels when you drive.
The intake is the path where air enters the engine before it’s mixed with fuel. Changes to the intake can affect sound, throttle response, and sometimes power, depending on the design.
"I think what you're going to get at next, if I had to predict where we go, is. [1109.8s] Refinement. [1111.1s] Yeah. [1111.8s] I think the defining characteristic of the car is. [1114.3s] Refinement."
Refinement is how smooth and “polished” the car feels. A refined car is usually quieter and less rough in everyday driving.
In car talk, refinement refers to how smooth, quiet, and well-controlled the vehicle feels—especially at idle and during normal driving. A refined car tends to have less harshness, fewer vibrations, and a more composed sound profile.
"...the visceralness and the overall experience of looking at this instrument cluster, which is a little bit peculiar..."
The instrument cluster is the driver-facing panel that houses gauges like the tachometer and speedometer. The speaker calls it “peculiar” because the gauge layout, sizes, fonts, and colors create a distinctive visual personality that contributes to the overall experience.
"I wonder if this would be... This particular car would be more fun if it had like snow tires on it. Right, so you could slide it around a bit,"
Snow tires are made to grip better when the road is cold or slippery. In this case, they’re suggesting the BMW Z1 would be more fun because the tires would let it slide around more easily (but still controllably).
Snow tires are designed with softer rubber compounds and deeper tread patterns to grip better in cold, wet, and snowy conditions. On a car like the BMW Z1, switching to snow tires can increase traction and also change how easily the car breaks loose, making it feel more controllably “slidey.”
"This particular car would be more fun if it had like snow tires on it. Right, so you could slide it around a bit, and you could overwhelm the rears,"
“Slide it around” means the car starts to lose grip and you let it rotate a bit instead of staying perfectly straight. It’s basically about how much traction the tires have.
“Slide it around” refers to intentionally or naturally letting the car’s tires lose grip and rotate, typically in a controlled way. It’s often discussed in terms of traction limits—how easily the car transitions from gripping to breaking loose.
Select text to request an explanation
Derek's laughing because this episode ends on a funny note.
It does. Oh, I guess you'll just have to consume that in due course.
45 minutes later, you from now, you will know exactly why we're giggling.
Okay. This is the Carmuggin show, which is driven by Hagerty,
which explains why I have a Hagerty hoodie on.
Okay. It is presented by Jason Camisa.
And that's me.
And Derek Tam-Scott, that's me.
This episode is about the BMW Z1, a car that was produced in low volumes and never offered in
the United States and is quite a rare sight here and was intended to be a vision for the future.
And in it, we will discuss what it's like in this episode.
We will discuss what it is like experientially and whether it portended the future or not.
I mean, does your car have electrically drop-down doors?
Don't answer that question. We don't want to give it away.
We'll be right back after these messages from...
My left and right hands.
And what a pathetic message that was.
Well, we said a message, not a good message.
Not a clear, concise, bassy message.
So, we have a snack in the studio today.
Multiple snacks.
Why are we eating on camera? It's a little...
Are we on camera?
Yeah, we're rolling.
Did anyone tell you welcome to the car margin show?
Yes, I feel welcomed.
Okay, great.
Maybe even warmly welcomed.
Warm out. We have a convertible.
Are those things related?
Probably not. Why do you have a jack-in-on?
I'm cold.
Oh, I had my Hagerty.
Put it on, because the car margin show is driven by Hagerty.
Did you know that?
Yeah, we just learned about that before the jingle.
How do you know this?
How do I know what?
That what we did, what we haven't done yet, but we're going to tell them we did.
I am Claire Voyant.
Hi, Claire. Miss Voyant, how are you?
All right, should we just start this entire intro over or just let that run?
I defer to your professional judgment.
No, we'll let it run.
Okay.
It's just easier that way.
Plus, they can know that you do nothing but eat here.
Have some snacks.
I'm working on it.
So tell us about this car.
It's a convertible.
This is a BMW, it's head to Eintz, otherwise known as a BMW Z1.
It's chassis code. It's not anything different.
It's just E30Z.
Is there like a slash?
Typically, there's E30 slash ones or slash two slash whatever.
I know they did this with E36.
Yes.
Like E36 slash seven is the Z3M, Z3 open car.
Open slash eight is the closed one.
And I'm sure the slash five is like the compact or something like that.
They started to, I think this one is Perenn Z is how I've seen it.
I don't think I've ever seen any official BMW documentation on.
It's a chassis code.
So this is an E30.
Interesting thing about E30 is there is an E30 variant, the slash,
shit, five maybe.
The slash, there's no shit version.
There is an E30 variant, the 318 Ti looks like an E36, but is actually an E30.
I'm sorry.
I guess it's an E36.
It's an E36 with E30 rear end.
That's the short wheelbase.
That's the hatchback.
Compact.
The compact.
With a different dash.
This is an E30 with an E36 for suspension.
What?
Yeah.
Technically, it was not yet the E36 suspension because this car came out.
Right.
Before the E36.
Before the E36.
This was the first project of a BMW subsidiary.
So BMW had Motorsport, which was M, and they had Technic, which is technical.
Technology, perhaps?
Probably Technic would be technology, yes.
This was their first project in 1987.
The Z1 made its debut at the Frankfurt Auto Show in the fall of 87.
Z stands for Zukunft, which means future in German.
So this is future one.
This was a technologietriege, a technology carrier or a flagship technological flagship
to show off new technologies that BMW was.
Sounds like I a little bit.
BMW love, the Germans love to be like, this is the new Mercedes F400.
F means Foschung, which is research.
And so they all have these weird names about like,
we're going to show you all of the future technology.
Yeah.
So the idea behind this car was let's make a car out of thermoplastic.
Is that the unifying concept?
Like the main technological thrust of this car is that its structure is different.
Yes.
There are two main things.
I keep meaning to do a revelations on this car,
and I think we're going to have to do one sooner rather than later
before this one disappears from us locally.
Because it's a treat to have any sort of Z1 in country,
especially one in red, which really just pops in the studio.
So all of this to say the Z1 was not sold in the United States.
So if you are a North American and this looks foreign to you.
It's because it is.
Because it's literally foreign, like extra foreign.
So the three sort of main things that make this car different
than other BMWs of the moment were the Z-axle, which is called,
which is the first multi-link rear axle that BMW did.
This is now, remember, almost a decade after Mercedes did a multi-link.
Yes, I was just going to say in response to whom and what?
In response to the Raumlenke Axel, which is the space.
Space arm.
Link.
The space.
Link has had a multi-link rear axle.
So this was BMW's first multi-link.
This was the first time we'd ever seen
electrically dropping doors from a BMW.
So it may be also the last time anyone has seen it from anyone.
Yeah, I think it is.
Remember when we talked a couple of weeks ago
about the 1970s General Motors clamshell wagons.
Yes.
Yeah, that's what this reminds me of.
It's just the door goes down, we'll have a video of it actually.
And so the door goes down into the body, into the side sill,
and the window goes into the door all at the same time.
Pretty interesting mechanism.
And why?
Why not?
I don't know.
You don't know?
I don't know.
There wasn't like a...
Maybe they thought in the future,
cars would be really difficult to get in and out of.
So we will have to make cars,
our car of the future must be difficult to get in and out of.
You know the Germans.
If the result of this is that there has to be somewhere for the door to go,
so the sill is quite high.
And why?
Broad, yes.
Yeah, it is not an easy car to get in and out of.
It is a very cool thing to have a drop-down door.
This is like maybe part of their vision for the future
that this is the same thing that they did with the i3,
where they're like, parking spaces will be narrow,
so we must have doors that are weird in order to accommodate
more compact environment in the future.
Unfortunately, in the case of the i3,
the doors did the opposite.
Yes, making it harder to access.
Similar here.
Similarly here.
Yes, there's a reason why car doors continue to function
in the same way that they have.
There are two types of car doors that work really well.
There's a hinged door and then there's a sliding door.
They both work incredibly well.
This one doesn't.
But it's cool.
And what it does is teach you one thing you probably didn't realize
is that doors provide a huge amount of wind blockage.
This thing is extremely well ventilated
if you drive it with the doors open, which you can.
And I don't think we went over probably 50 miles an hour
with the doors.
And it felt like it was like motorcycle levels of ventilation.
On the highway in one of these things,
which I did many, many years ago,
BMW actually brought one in out of their classic center in Munich
and had him down in Santa Barbara, somewhere around LA,
and flew a bunch of us in to drive their classic car collection
up to Monterey Car Week.
Could this have been the center in Ventura
where all of the stuff was imported?
Could be.
I don't remember where we picked them up.
I just remember hopping into that and an E28M5
with 11,000 kilometers on it
that I wound up keeping for a couple of weeks afterwards
and going through and cleaning the injector,
having the injector sent out to be cleaned
because the car just didn't run right
and I thought that was a shame.
But yeah, on the highway like on I5 or 101,
whatever it was, 80 miles an hour,
the car's undrivable with the wind.
You have to.
I mean, it's got great wind control with the windows up
and the doors closed, but wow, doors do a lot.
Who knew?
Who knew?
So this was the result of their studying for the future
was that doors work.
Doors work.
And then the other thing was, of course,
that the body of the car is plastic or fiber,
with fiberglass.
So parts of it are fiberglass
and incredibly heavy parts of it are thermoplastic
and very light.
Like the hood feels like it weighs nothing,
but the trunk lid weighs more than an E30.
The whole car.
Right.
Well, this car weighs more than an E30.
So it does it.
The structure of the car is fully galvanized steel
that is welded around the entire perimeter of everything
for structural rigidity and long.
So it's like a platform chassis
with like body work hanging on it.
Which is always a heavy way of building a car.
So it is a couple hundred pounds.
I think it's 200 pounds heavier than an E30.
Okay.
Is this intended to be a sporting concept?
It certainly looks like a sports car.
It certainly looks like a sports car.
I think it also looks decidedly not like a BMW.
Is there anything about this car?
If you made those pop-up headlights,
you would, you could see the family resemblance
to the eight series, which was an E31.
Remember, this is E30.
This, that was E31.
They were similar time.
19, so this made its debut in 87
and the eight series would have made its debut maybe 89.
So two years later.
Similar front end styling with the,
with the kidney grille openings.
Does not look terribly BMW to me.
No.
And the interior is also not terribly BMW.
It's got a lot of BMW switch gear.
And stuff placed in sort of haphazardly in different places.
Like you pointed out the mirror control,
which is, how did you call it ergonomically ideal?
You can't see or feel or touch or reach or.
Yes.
It's like mounted facing downwards above the ashtray.
And it's only because I recognize it as a BMW mirror switch
that I knew what it was because you can't see it.
So you can't like interpret or intuit its function,
which you can sometimes do based like on looking at some stuff.
I thought it was a light.
I thought it was the cabin light ashtray light.
It was like, well, I just looked really quickly.
I'm like, on the topic of ashtrays,
we did note that they're at the rear of the center console.
There is an ashtray for the rear seat passengers,
but there's no space for rear seat passengers.
No, no, it's for trunk passengers.
Oh, I see.
It's for your kid, your, your, you know,
four year old who's with a two pack a day habit.
Who's in the trunk.
Okay.
That's what happened.
That was an interesting feature.
Yeah.
What happens when they probably ran out of money and said,
no, we're going to have to use an E30 part for that.
Yeah.
But a lot of it doesn't look E30 or even BMW.
I think the interior styling is not very BMW.
It's actually pretty, I think the exterior is fairly psychedelic
looking the interior even more so psychedelic.
It also looks very nicely finished.
Like if you get into an E30, you're like,
Oh, this is relatively low rent and plastic.
Yeah.
And this is leather trimmed everything and like pretty like
retrofuturistic is the way I would describe it.
Like the shape of the stitching patterns on the center console
and the seats and the top of the dashboard is all very like concept car.
It kind of, the whole thing to me,
it feels like a concept car that sort of ended up in production,
which is I think probably the coolest thing about the entire car.
Yeah.
Maybe getting ahead of myself.
But I will see, I will say that the interior is kind of a mismatch
of different textures and shapes.
It's not the, it's not cohesively designed.
Everything is leather lined probably because it was cheaper than making.
Plastic molds for the volume.
I mean, so speaking of volume,
how many of these things approximately were made?
I know nothing about this car.
8,000 on the dot.
Okay.
They made 8,000 of them.
Jason's carrying this episode because I know nothing about it.
And I want to say it was something like 93% of which were sold in Germany.
Again, I have to really dig into this for revelations,
but almost all of these cars were sold in Germany.
I think France was the next largest market at 7%.
I remember reading years ago.
So it's 90 something, 91 maybe percent Germany.
They were, I remember the first time I saw them.
That must have been by design.
Oh, I just don't, I think it was too expensive.
So it was 80,000.
Deutschmarks was target price.
And then I think it wound up selling for a little more than that.
So you'd probably be able to get a five series or maybe a seven at the time.
It was a lot of money.
And so it's not considered a marketplace success.
Was it in their intent to have it be a limited production car?
Or would they have sold more?
Would they have made more if they could have sold more?
I think they probably would have made more.
I think most of them are first year and then it drops off.
Many, many years ago, I did research on these cars because I wanted one.
And I thought if I was going to have two E30s,
I would have the two wildest extreme body styles.
Wagon on the one side and Z1.
Maximum frumpy and minimum frumpy, in other words.
But using conventional American.
Resent that huge amount.
One does not call an E30 wagon frumpy.
That calls it amazing and hot.
Yeah, just totally max usability.
Two nerds.
Maximum usability, minimum usability.
And I just remember when I was looking for one, I wanted a later one and they just don't exist.
A later one.
Did they change them over production?
No, there was nothing later, but I figured it's newer.
This is many, many years ago, so they weren't that old.
And I thought, well, let's get a low mileage late car.
There's, I think the majority were produced in the first year.
And I remember BMW had said they had a ton of orders and never materialized.
Well, a ton of orders.
I mean, 8,000 is substantial.
35,000 orders.
It was something of the sort.
Oh.
Yeah, it was a big.
At that price point.
Yeah.
Well, at the initial announced price point, who knows.
But this was not 90 to 93 or 89 to 91 was not a great time for the world economy.
No, no, there was a big recession, which I think.
Killed off everything.
I mean, it killed off so many.
Anything frivolous.
Anything premium.
Any of the cars that I've covered for revelations that came out in that period
all were marketplace failures because no one had the money to buy a Chizetta,
Marota.
R129, that was a marketplace success.
That was the only one.
E31, the recession was blamed on its lack of success.
Which is interesting because the R129 came out at the same time and was quite successful.
I think there was, I think at that point,
I think at that point in history, Mercedes money was closer to what we would consider
Rolls-Royce money now.
And I think that segment of the market was largely
encumbered by economic realities.
Oh, the pores are revolting again.
I'll just have a new Mercedes, but I'll get it in a dark color.
They won't notice.
Right.
Yeah.
So power train wise, it is E3325i, which means an M20,
two and a half liter straight six with 167 horsepower.
Oh, to return for a moment to the other underpinnings,
we were talking about the multi-link rear suspension, the first time BMW had ever done this.
And my understanding with the E36 compact was that it had the trailing arm suspension from
an E34 packaging reasons, but how was the packaging of that car different from the packaging
of this car such that they could put a multi-link in a car this size, but not in the compact?
I don't know if it's about size.
I think it's floor height, if I had to guess.
So semi trailing arms take up very little room, so you can have a low floor vertically,
so you can have a low floor.
Okay.
So it's the presence of back seats in the compact?
Probably.
And a hatch floor.
Right.
You know one's going to care whether this has eight cubic feet of cargo space or 8.7,
but when you're looking at a city runabout hatchback, I think cargo interior volume overall,
cargo and passenger room is a big consideration.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't know to be honest, but I suspect that's what it was.
And remember, this is not actually an E30 that's not been chopped up.
The wheelbase is shorter than an E30.
The engine is fully behind the front axle, which I don't think people realize.
So it's an E30, but they must have modified the shit out of it to get the engine that much further.
And that's how it has such a low plunging hood line, because you look at that hood line,
it sort of doesn't seem to calculate that an inline six that's sitting almost upright in there.
Well, I think they're, yeah, there are, I think they're 20 over 20 degrees over,
which is the same as E30s, if I remember correctly, but yeah.
Approximately the same.
If you look at an E30 and, you know, the engine is right up to the top of that hood to your point.
So I think moving it backwards.
So getting a plunging nose line like that, you have to have moved the engine.
It's a remarkable achievement actually to get an inline six under a hood line like that.
Well, the hood line now, if you look at it critically does rise quite a bit.
Quite a bit.
I'm sure that's to accommodate the inline six.
Right. Yeah. So there it is.
I mean, it's a chopped up E30 with a short wheelbase.
It's a lot shorter. It's a much, much shorter than any 30.
It's quite a small car.
It's little and heavier. So unfortunately, it's slower,
which I don't think is the right move.
This particular one, the other one that I drove also sounded great.
This particular one is the best sounding M20 I've ever experienced.
It's got more intake noise than most for whatever reason.
Despite being totally unmodified.
As far as I know, it's unmodified.
It doesn't look altered.
Yeah. The intake itself, maybe there's a K&N filter or something in there,
but my God, it sounds good.
Like it sounds amazing.
Not terribly loud.
No, quiet.
What you hear is really enjoyable.
I think what you're going to get at next, if I had to predict where we go, is.
Refinement.
Yeah.
I think the defining characteristic of the car is.
Refinement.
Yeah. It's a pretty civilized thing.
It does not.
This sounds negative, but it doesn't.
I think it's visually very exciting.
It feels like a concept car walking up to it.
I have never touched or seen or interacted with one of these cars before one hour ago.
And I remember reading about them and seeing pictures of them,
but have never touched or interacted with one.
And so it's very interesting to see it up close,
because it is very concept car-y in a lot of interesting ways.
And so that's pretty exciting.
And also just novelty.
There's value in novelty for a person who's jaded, I guess.
So that was.
But also, I'm tempering that with the fact that I know
that there's a lot of E30 content under the skin.
And so the question that I'm asking as I walk up to this thing is,
is it going to do the same thing that other BMW sports cars do,
which shares so much with the BMW sedans that we really like,
but somehow isn't quite as good experientially.
And so that was the burning question for me that I was seeking to answer by driving it.
And the answer to that is?
I don't think it is experientially like that.
It's not more compelling experientially than a driving experience-wise than an E30.
And I don't like that it's heavier, but the visceralness and the overall experience
of looking at this instrument cluster, which is a little bit peculiar,
because the gauges are next to each other, but one is bigger than the other.
Different fonts, different colors.
Yeah, one has red.
The tachometer has a red needle and all the other are white instead.
So it's got lots of whimsy.
The car is quite whimsical.
And so obviously an E30, I don't think of an E30 as being a whimsical car at all.
It's a very pragmatic, sensible, sort of slightly austere,
but that's part of the charm of the E30.
So you trade the austerity and slightly basicness
and like a slightly cheapness of the interior.
And this is, again, judging by the standards of Mercedes-Benz,
which is reasonably high standard.
So you trade the sort of cheapness and austerity of an E30
for sort of whimsy and concept car-ness and sort of exotic-ness to it.
But then when you actually strip that away and you get to the driving experience,
it is pretty refined.
It's not unpleasant, of course, because we like driving E30s,
but I don't think it does anything particularly more excitingly than an E30 does.
Okay, so I love the way they look because they're so different.
When I have a car that looks like this,
I expect the driving experience to light my hair on fire.
And that, to me, is let down as a strong word.
But I get into an E30, and it's dorky,
and you don't expect it to have this engine that's talkative
and just literally defines the whole experience of the car.
The definition of speaking softly and carrying a big stick in this car is-
Kind of the opposite way.
With that said, I can't get over two things.
Number one, how composed the suspension is,
and two, how much better it puts power down than an E30.
You can just- Sticky tires on this particular car,
but you can just be full throttle on second gear,
and it doesn't care where a semi-trailing arm suspension is not as good.
I think maybe the weight penalty is relevant potentially here, too.
Could be.
Could be part of it.
I mean, it's got the recipe, but a stock E30,
which it's been a long time since either of us have experienced one.
Yes, I think it's been maybe 20 years since I drove a stock E30.
And every time I do, what I'm left with is,
okay, the bones are amazing, the engine is like 10 out of 10,
but the suspension is really soft, the steering is really slow,
and the car just is a little bit on stilts.
This doesn't feel that way at all.
This is so- I would love to really haul ass on it back.
We did a quick back road drive, but nothing crazy.
With probably less grippy tires, just to slide the thing around,
I suspect it will be magic.
But this is what BMW has quote gotten wrong so many times
with Z branded cars, starting with actually the 850.
You put this great styling on it, make it look like a Ferrari,
and then make it drive like a perfectly sober thing.
But Z1, Z3, Z4, Z4 again, all of those cars drove like the
three series they were based on, but not as well.
I think this one drives objectively better than any E30,
it's just less fun, less silly.
Yes, it's more buttoned down, and that's, I'm sure,
the result of the sophistication of the rear suspension design.
But isn't that opposite?
Interior have whimsy, and the exterior have whimsy,
but the driving experience be less whimsical and more serious.
Just always struck me as the wrong-
Yes, I mean, it's a fundamental question that I often pose
about are you driving the car for yourself or for someone else,
in terms of should the best part of the experience
be the driving experience or not, or should it all be
cohesively and everything's aligned, and various cars do this to various extents.
Some cars drive exactly how you expect them to,
based on how they look.
Others, there's a disconnect where it looks sober.
This is maybe the hot hatch magic formula.
Right, looks normal and likes your hair and fire.
With that said, I mean, if I wanted an open-top E30,
there's no question this is what I would have, over a cab.
Yes, and the price accordingly reflects that.
Yeah, I mean, I haven't looked at prices for years.
These cars used to be really cheap, and I did try to buy them.
But, you know, at a time, they were still in order of magnitude
more expensive than an E30.
Oh, an E30 cab.
Yeah, and they may not be that much more.
E30s have gotten expensive, and people really love that cab.
The E30 cab relay is a wonderful cruiser,
but there's nothing sporty about the way they drive.
This is the opposite of that.
And so, is it the ultimate E30 kind of?
One of the conclusions that I was made was that this car could
stand, could handle, and probably needs a lot more power.
Yeah, needs is a strong word.
I don't know if, yeah, I don't...
It wouldn't, some cars, you add power and it makes them worse,
and this is not a car like that.
This is a car that could...
The ingredients are all there to accommodate a lot more power,
and it would only improve the car.
And I don't always feel that way about adding power to cars.
I wonder if this would be...
This particular car would be more fun if it had like snow tires on it.
Right, so you could slide it around a bit,
and you could overwhelm the rears, because as it was,
it was just a foot to the floor momentum car experience on a background.
Yeah.
But I mean, to drive it around town, I still want one.
That was the nice thing is after all these years.
So you've come close to buying one of these in the past?
Very close.
I mean, it was in the process of buying it in the...
I can't say the C word.
Cellar.
Cellar, that's the S word.
Cellar with a C.
Cellar with a C decided not to buy it, and I had invested...
Not to sell it.
Not to sell it with a C.
And I had invested so much money by having someone go there
and pick it up and put it on a tow truck, like on a flatbed,
and bring it to a specialist and have them do a PPI on it.
I was so irritated about that whole thing, I said, forget it.
And then as it turns out, my E30 showed back up,
because I had my touring went to my friend Sam's mom for a couple of years.
And so while I was E30 list, I thought,
wow, I'm going to go get a Z1.
Yeah, I've come really close.
There's the issue with the exterior from my perspective
is the plastic body panels expand a lot from heat,
so you need to have very large panel gaps.
And on the light colored cars, like Fun Yellow was one of the colors,
you just see all these black stripes from...
And there are a lot of joints.
And so the darker the color, the better it looks.
So they made, I think, two of these cars, if I remember correctly,
in this beautiful dark blue with a red interior.
I tried to buy one of them for quite a while,
and the owner finally came up with the price.
I almost passed out.
Now, in retrospect, I should have done it.
But my color combo otherwise was black with a yellow interior.
And it was this yellow cloth that disintegrated
the first time it saw the sun.
But my least favorite part of the car visually is the leather,
which is black-ish, but has a green sort of acid-watched pattern on it.
And that just, for me, doesn't work on a red car.
I like it.
I find it, it's fabulously kitschy.
It's like, it's very period, it's very 90s.
It's the same way that magenta and green leathers being...
Magenta and green is a little bit less egregious
than fire engine red and green.
And it's just an army-muted green.
I just think this car, if this had black leather interior,
it would, as boring as that sounds, it would be better for it.
But great shifter, great brakes, unbelievable.
Shifter's kind of long.
It feels sedani.
It's not a very sporting shifter.
The brakes are the same way.
It's just all BMW.
Yeah, it feels like a standard E30.
But it doesn't have a directness or a precise,
like sort of intrinsically sporting feel to it.
And the other thing on...
Which is fine.
Oh, there was something else.
Oh, the steering on this car.
It actually feels like it's different geometry than an E30.
And I wonder if moving the axle changed anything,
or maybe if the axle's even moved.
I don't...
Or maybe the engine moved.
Something happened, but this actually really direct.
So it's kind of slow off center as E30s are.
But then it quickens up.
And I don't know if it's just a geometry issue
or it's an alignment issue on this car, but it's wonderful.
It makes the car really respond in the middle of a corner.
I like it.
So conceptually, was it successful?
Was it useful for BMW as a look at the future?
Did it help pioneer some technology or philosophy
or anything like that?
Or is it a sort of random footnote in BMW's history?
Like if we were to zoom out and try and assess
the car's significance, how would you characterize it?
Well, I think it did two things.
So it pioneered the rear suspension,
which then wound up in the E36.
The E31 had a slightly different independent rear multi-link.
So that came next.
That's the eight series.
And I think this was more advanced than that or some way.
They're not actually the same suspension,
but the Z-axle did wind up in the E36.
So that was one thing.
And the whole idea of a two-seat roadster.
The next one was obviously the Z3, which was...
Right.
So BMW at this point was producing
exclusively three, five and seven and no other products.
Six.
No.
Six, which is six.
The six was done in 89.
So three, five, seven.
The six is a five series with a two-door body on it, effectively.
And eight.
But they were replaced the six philosophically
and was more based on the seven series.
Yeah, but no roadsters, no sports cars.
Yeah, they had never made a sports car
or anything that could be construed as a sports car.
Since, you know...
Since the war.
Since 1959.
Yes.
Since basically they're near...
Since Mercedes almost bought them in 1959.
Since the Kronz family.
Right, had taken over.
Took over.
So this was the first modern BMW sports car
and maybe a dress rehearsal for the Z dynasty,
if you want to call it a dynasty,
that's maybe a little bit generous.
But the sort of Z concept.
3-4 and Z3, Z4, Z8.
Yes.
Z8's another one.
Z8 was effectively the same recipe, right?
Except larger, they took the five series,
chopped it up, put aluminum body on it.
And again, a concept car look and vibe
that ended up in production.
Those things are monsters.
Yes.
So fast.
Yeah, those are among my favorite BMWs to drive.
Actually.
The one thing I love the way they look,
but that's also another one that's on our list of
of Revelations candidates together with a 507,
because it's such a,
is styling is so closely,
it's so directly inspired by the 507.
What I do like about this is it looks like nothing else.
Yes.
And nothing ever looked like it.
And I guess that's maybe what I was alluding to earlier
when I said to me, it does not really look like a BMW.
I do see the E31 resemblance,
but there's not a lot of strong BMW design language,
like sort of genetic presence in this car.
Even the wheels.
Even the wheels.
I was just going to say, not much,
not much, even the steering wheel was different.
I mean, there's a lot of things that are just different.
And so I think it probably was an evolutionary dead end.
I'm going to answer that question, which I think makes for a cool car.
But yeah, very interesting.
Quite singular.
I mean, in the course of discussing collectibility of cars,
and the reason why a Z8 is worth $150,000 or $200,000,
and an SL55 is worth six cents,
is because it was a singular thing that wasn't really replaced.
This is exactly the same of a Ford GT also in 2005, 2006.
Ford GT, they're now $500,000 and a 360, Ferrari 360,
is best case 200 grand for a manual coupe,
if you want to use the closest comp in terms of product.
But those cars, so Z8 and SL55 cost exactly the same
when they were new.
And 360 and Ford GT basically cost exactly the same
when they were new, $150,000, all four of those cars were $150,000.
And it's very interesting to see the way
that the values stratify based, of course, on numbers,
and also where there is a direct replacement
that is kind of substantially the same, but just better.
And so the 430 obviously does that.
Every generation of SL is interchangeable with the one
before and effectively in terms of like,
whereas the Z8 and the Ford GT are singular.
Singular moments.
That had no direct predecessor and no direct successor either,
at least not for decades in the case of the Ford GT.
Do you know who designed this car, brother?
No.
He's a fucking asshole.
I don't, look, I don't understand bigotry and hatred.
And I don't like it.
I don't put up with it.
And I think it should be something private.
And for this guy to have changed his name
to something just to piss people off, his name is Harm Legay.
And I just don't think the gays have done anything wrong.
And they don't do this car.
You clown.
He's a Dutch guy.
Yeah, and then he went.
Exactly.
That was a complete, for the record, let me just say,
that was a complete and total joke.
It was a way to make Derek laugh.
He was at Porsche.
Yeah.
He did 993.
He did 968.
He did 986 and 996, but he did a lot of Porsches.
And this, and that's kind of his,
like I think the only BMW he designed was this one.
Well, that's why it doesn't look like a BMW.
It's a little Porsche either.
I guess in some ways, neither did the 986.
You think of the original Boxster probably didn't look too much like a Porsche.
They have much, there's a much closer genetic relationship,
like aesthetically, there's a lot of cues that you can identify as distinctively Porsche.
A Boxster?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I guess.
You have like the peaks of the headlights.
The headlights are fundamentally trying to be round.
They're tilted back into the wind.
Trying to be round.
Well, you know, they couldn't afford to make them round.
They had to combine them with the turn signals.
It has peaks of fenders that are higher than the hood between them.
The like double hoop thing is very like sort of 50s race car.
I think you see Porsche 550 kind of in the back as well.
I think it's very Porsche-y.
Like there's a lot of Porsche language in that car.
The fact that the, I could go on.
Yeah, I could go on too.
No, please don't.
The sides of the doors, how they're barreled,
and that the cockpit is narrower than the body of the car,
which is like a very quintessential like 911 characteristic
that like is one of the most important defining characteristics of the car aesthetically.
The fact that the body, the wheels are wider stick out farther than the body
and then the cockpit is newer than both.
Like that's all very Porsche-y.
So I think that car has a lot of Porsche aesthetic characteristics.
I mean, the weird thing is I would have said 996 does have Porsche DNA.
986 doesn't, but they're mostly the same.
I mean, and ever all the things you're saying.
And what I'm looking at, I think was just the detailing on the shapes of the
individual highlights, like the headlights or like the tail lights, but fair point.
Yeah, no, but it was done by, you know, a man who went on to Porsche and did it.
He's still alive.
So last I checked.
Harming the gaze.
Well, it's just the one.
Harm Le.
Oh, just one.
I would, I think it's LeChai.
It's L-E-G-A-A-Y with an umla, which is actually an I and a J.
And I don't know how the hell you pronounce it,
but first name harm, which is something I've not heard.
Anyway, Dutch guy.
Interesting looking car.
So yeah, now an interesting side note for BMW enthusiasts.
There's not a whole lot of BMWs that really transcend into deep collectability.
And I don't, you know, I have private theories.
I guess I could make them public.
Yeah, why not?
There's a, there's a natural progression that a lot of BMW people make,
which is that they proceed to other types of cars when they can afford to.
And that's why you get really collectible Porsches and Ferraris.
And there's just the same, there's, I hear BMW people complaining about this,
because there's some significant BMWs that deserve to be more expensive and aren't.
And, you know, they hypothesize, so I can't fully claim credit for this, that, you know,
there's just the BMW guys, when they get money, they go elsewhere.
And so there's just not enough BMW interest to sustain the values of BMWs,
when they get really expensive and part of the value proposition.
And when I say really expensive, I'm talking deep into six figures, you know,
where we're trying to call it $150 or $200,000 and above.
Would you, what BMWs do you think live in that or should do,
do people say deserve to live in that space?
Yeah, that's part of the other question for me.
You know, like does a E9 CSL deserve to be there?
After driving one myself, I don't, I don't think it does personally.
Just because it's so solid.
It's an experientially, yeah, it was an experientially disappointing car for me.
Funny, that's the car that I drove back to back with the first one of these I drove.
I just kept switching back and forth.
It was again, way too civilized.
Way too civilized.
When you look at the formula of the car, my expectations admittedly,
which were way too high and inappropriate was a 73 career RS.
Oh yeah, no.
And so it, you know, fails to deliver on that.
And so they're just not that valuable for that reason.
You know, obviously 507s deserve to be expensive and they are expensive.
They're $2 million or really, yeah.
So that's an exception.
But again, rarity, 253 examples made, I think.
And, you know, M1s.
M1s are four, five, $600,000, which I don't know.
I guess that is obviously a lot of money.
That's a lot of money.
But, you know, if that were made by someone else, should it cost more?
If it just said Lamborghini on it, would it cost more?
I mean, yeah.
Well, it was a Countache cost.
Countache cost, you know, I would say rough ones start at 500 and go well over a million.
So I guess it's, it's in the same ballpark as in Lamborghini.
And Lamborghini has a 12 cylinder engine and is experientially really out there.
I mean, M1 is a very civilized car to drive.
It's again the issue of maybe being too refined and civilized and not exciting enough experientially.
So, I mean, I don't know, maybe, and then everything else is derived from a relatively
pedestrian car, you know, E28 M5s have certainly can break six figures.
And it is the original, you know, M5, but they're, and they're quite rare.
But, you know, just how expensive could a four door car be?
I don't know.
I guess it's the fact that they haven't made too many sports cars.
And that's usually what gets really valuable.
Really crazy money.
So should this, where should this be?
Funny, we don't know what they're, I haven't paid attention in 10 years.
I think they're like a hundred grand.
Does that seem reasonable to you or plausible?
It seems a lot.
But also, if you think about it, what would you rather have an E30M3 or this?
I'd rather have this.
I'd rather have this than an E30M3.
But if this, if they had the same engine, I'd still rather have this because it's more
interesting aesthetically.
But E30M3s are barely a hundred grand at this point.
It depends on, yeah, low mileage ones will be deep into a hundred grand.
And obviously the Evo versions, Sport Evo and all that, you know, what, like,
I don't know, at a hundred grand, I could, look, if I had room, this would be a hundred
percent in my garage.
I think it's cool.
I think it's a cool shape.
I think it's a cool idea.
I think it's, you know, BMW touted back in the day that you could change the color of the car
in 40 minutes and recommended to their owners that they buy an entire set of body parts and
pre-paint it in another color.
So here you could just have this and store it in the garage and in 40 minutes you could
change the color of the car.
This is like the freaking tent on the Aztec or the stove on the early Rivian.
It's like these little things that are provided at launch that you're like, oh yeah,
obviously you'll do this, but then like nobody chooses to do it.
I mean, apparently it is possible.
I think it's longer than 40 minutes, but you can absolutely remove every body panel.
You can drive this car with no body panels on it.
They're merely there for arrow and structure, but that's pretty cool.
I mean, if I were the ultimate BMW collector, I would have this and I would have a set of
body panels in every color just on the wall and say, well, I'll have my pins.
And then they drive the car around with none of them on.
Change with the season.
Like, you know, like, oh, it's autumn.
It's like the lights on the Empire State Building or something like that.
Well, we have now learned quite a bit about the Z1.
I knew nothing about this car other than that it existed and that it had E30 guts.
So this was very illuminating for me.
Well, hopefully we haven't spoiled the whole thing.
If I go to do a revelations episode, I'm sure in the course of reading,
you'll learn much more and tell us about maybe it did have this incredible legacy
that survived onwards and permanently altered the trajectory of BMW in some way that we
haven't considered yet.
There could be other things in there, but I don't think the doors ever made an appearance
anywhere else.
No, they're quite goofy.
Or the A-pillar mounted mirrors.
Yeah, I mean, that's very concept car.
Some of the McLaren F1s that were built had that.
But yeah, I think the doors are distinctive.
It's certainly like an interesting conversation piece.
It I think deserves to be collectible, but it's mostly not because of the experience
that it provides.
It's a pleasant and enjoyable experience, but it's not like an order of magnitude
more enjoyable experience than an E30.
But you are, you know, cars do many things other than provide driving experiences.
And I'd say the value of this car lies elsewhere because you can get something
that is very similar in an E30 for much less money.
For much less money.
Except for the way.
But it happens to me experience I quite like.
And structure is structure on the car is really nice.
It's actually quite stiff.
Yeah, it has some cowl shake, but I don't think it's comparable, I think, to
some of the best convertibles you could buy at the time.
Nothing like an E30 cab.
Yeah, or a 911.
Right.
So they were incredibly flexy at that point.
911 cabs.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, I mean, it was a 60s design that they then cut the roof off of 20 years
later, so it was always going to be junk.
Yeah, no fair point.
I think you're harsher on the experience than I am.
I really like the experience because it's so civilized.
It's like an E30 and it's like, so you're not getting anything different from an E30,
which costs much less.
You're getting a lot more suspension.
Composure in the back end.
Composure in the back end, but also composure overall.
No, there's no perceptible role in that car.
It's, unless this one has already has shocks and springs on it, which I don't,
it doesn't feel like it.
It feels so compliant, but no extraneous body emotions.
I think it's really well sorted.
And so there are people who don't like, you know, like,
you're always making fun of me for liking bad cars.
This is a good car.
And I actually, I could, other than getting in and out,
which would be difficult, especially with the roof on.
I actually can't imagine getting that out of it.
We didn't try that.
Let's not.
The technique is you grab the, there's handles on the A pillar that you're supposed to grab
onto. And I think it's kind of essential to do that.
If you don't want to sit on, you're not supposed to sit on the doors because they're like,
they're belt driven, apparently.
And so I'm, belt driven.
And they're electric.
Yes.
It should be noted that they're electrically actuated.
So with a dead battery, you, you get in the trunk, I guess, yeah.
Or allegedly you can override them, but I don't.
I just, when fundamental functions, like this is like electric door handles
and how they're being outlawed in China or whatever.
Like I just, why, like this, this isn't a question that anyone asked.
It's fucking cool.
I mean, look at it.
It's got no doors and you could drive around with, and people can see your crotch.
So it's the ultimate flasher car.
And on that bombshell, we're ending this episode of the Carpenter Show.
Nothing more to add.
Well, that and the McLaren Senna, because it has glass door panels.
Yeah, but that's only your ankles, right?
You know, because you can, your shoulders.
It's like your thighs in the Senna.
Yeah, yeah.
I always thought it was lower than that.
No, it's your, it's your thighs.
Maybe you're looking to, no, this one wins without a question.
BMW, the ultimate flashing machine.
You heard it here first.
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